BTS 2.6 AATS How do we show our partner our progress in recovery?
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Crishelle: [00:00:00] Welcome back. I'm your host Krusel Simons. And today we are breaking the silence with Rachel Denton, our therapist in the ASCA therapist series. Today, we're going to be talking about how to communicate with your partner, your progress in recovery. And we're going to get more into that question in just a second. First, I want to share with you one of my favorite.
Tools it's called relay. It is a recovery app designed specifically to connect you with people who are also recovering from unwanted pornography use. I love this tool so much. It was created by my friend Chandler. Have you missed his episode as a couple of episodes back? Where he shares his story and how, connection and having a community.
Really helped him change. And so he created this app so that you can have connection. Any time you need it. Right in your phone. And I, I love what they've done. I love what they've done. They have [00:01:00] created. And provided the benefits of group therapy at a fraction of the cost. I've done group therapy. It was great. It helped me a ton. It was super expensive.
And also. It was really hard to show up. Sometimes I'm going to be honest. And so I love that they've created this app that is so much more approachable and right in your back pocket, every time you need it, anytime. You have an SOS or you need to reach out or you just need a little bit more support.
Relays for you. So if you or anyone, you know, is ready to do recovery, different check, relay out. Sign up for relay for free. Try it for free with the link in our show notes and see if it's what you've been looking for.
With that Rachel. Will you take a second and introduce yourself to anyone tuning in for the first time
Rachel: yeah, so I'm Rachel and I [00:02:00] a licensed social worker. Currently have a private practice where I work with a lot of anxiety and depression and everything in between.
So that's what I do now.
Crishelle: That's fantastic. And she's also on the board for Reach 10, which is the nonprofit that this podcast, and she is just so great and I'm so grateful to have her with us because she has so much incredible wisdom. She's done a ton of work. And I guess you can speak to this. You've done a ton of work in research in pornography.
Maybe you speak to that instead of me tell them.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I guess a lot of it is. Experience working with people who are struggling with pornography, but then also people who are partnered with someone who's struggling with pornography and everything that comes with that. I worked in agency for about three years where I exclusively [00:03:00] did that type of work.
And then I've been working with Fight New Drug for many, many years. And so I, I'm pretty familiar with this topic and yeah. And maybe not quite as much research, but just, just anecdotal experience.
Crishelle: Perfect. And that is so great because with these questions, and we're so grateful for every question ever Sented by any of you listeners, we read them all, we love them, and we're so grateful for your willingness to trust us with your questions and with these questions, that's what we're going to speak to.
We're gonna share. Some of the things that we've learned that can hopefully help you in, in your quest to have great relationships, to have greater connections and courage and better relationships all the way around. So our question today was submitted by a listener, and it is how do you show and express to your partner that you are putting an effort into being clean and being in recovery?
And I really love this question. We chose [00:04:00] this question today because I feel like it's a little bit different than what I've heard before. I feel like often it's like, what does recovery look like? . , what is abstinence? And those are all great questions and we'll definitely get to those later.
But I love this one because it has to do with the partnership and the relationship. So just off the bat, Rachel, what are some of your thoughts in how you show and express progress to your partner?
Rachel: Before we jump into this discussion here, I think it's important to make a note that some of the things we may be talking about in here may be a little bit triggering or activating. And so if you notice yourself feeling triggered or shut down or. Or frustrated. There's probably a reason why you do, and I would really invite you to bring in some compassion for yourself and bring in curiosity as well.
And [00:05:00] maybe ask yourself, what is this about for me? Why am I feeling activated by this? what is it that my. My emotions are trying to warn me about or tell me here, and I think that will help things feel a little bit less overwhelming if, if you're feeling triggered.
This is an interesting question. And actually when I heard this question, it, it to me sounds like a one coming out of anxiety on both ends. And the reason why I say that is because an individual who's struggling with pornography that's saying, how is it that I can show progress or that I can prove that I am not pornography?
I think is coming out of an anxious place and maybe out of a, of a place of saying, I don't think that I'm a, well, I don't know. It to me sounds like, I don't know if I'm a, if I can trust myself [00:06:00] with this, I don't, like, she can't trust me and so I can't trust me. And so there's this anxiety of like, I need to continuously prove to the both of us that this is not something that I'm struggling with.
And my guess also is that it's. Being perpetuated by the partner saying, I need you to tell me, I need you to prove I need to see progress. Because if you don't x, y, or Z is gonna happen. And so it, it's just anxiety all around. So I think that one of the maybe different way to look at it is I don't know if I need to necessarily prove anything or say anything necessarily.
It's more of. What are my actions? What is it that I'm actually doing? And can my partner see those actions in me? But I think above all of it, it's can my partner trust me? Does my partner trust me to be honest about what's happening? And if the answer to that is no, [00:07:00] then that is obviously something that needs to be addressed.
Crishelle: Yeah. I also feel like as you were explaining that, that it's coming from a place of anxiety of like, I need to prove this. I, I feel like I, I heard you talking to someone who's really struggling and just trying to prove their worth in the relationship. And, and they don't even know if they're, they're worthy of being in the relationship.
Is that, am I just hearing that or, or, or have you seen that?
Rachel: Absolutely, and I think it's partly the way that the couple has set it up together where she's saying you. bad, or at least there's a part of you that's bad. And in order for me to be okay to be in this relationship with this bad part of you, I need you to show me that this bad part will no longer exist.
Well, [00:08:00] what we know about pornography is that's probably not going to happen at least right away. Like it's very likely that pornography. when the relationship starts or proceeding the relationship. So I think that there, there's a lot of relieving honesty. I think that comes when the person who's struggling with pornography can come to the relationship saying, honestly, I'm. I'm going to look at pornography in this relationship. And I say that because that's what history has shown, that it doesn't really matter if I'm dating someone or not.
Pornography is still part of my relationship. I've been, I've been struggling with this for many years, and so it's very likely that this is going to be part of the relationship and this something I care about. Part of my value system. I don't want this to be [00:09:00] part of my, my life, and so I am doing the steps I need to be doing to make sure that doesn't, that, that it's less and less until maybe eventually it's not at all.
But I don't want to, I, I think when we have this Almost promise of I'm working hard, I'm making sure this doesn't happen. It's, it's not very honest. But there's a lot of honesty to saying, this is probably, or this is going to be part of this relationship. I will look at pornography. And that's not to be an excuse.
It's just what his story has shown and can you deal with that? Can, can you live with that?
This is very different than being indulgent in it and saying like, this is just how it is. This is just how I am. You need to live with it. That's. I'm saying is, is honesty and what is true that this is probably something that's gonna be part of my, our relationship and I am working on it. But with those [00:10:00] two things, can you handle that?
Is that okay? I'm probably going to have relapses and I'm going to be honest with you about them. I'm, I have the things in place that people I need to talk to to work on this issue.
Crishelle: Wow. I, I love that so much because how refreshing, how refreshing to hear. Modeled a way to maybe talk about this that starts with honesty and provides ground for honesty to continue, if that makes
Rachel: Absolutely.
Crishelle: Whereas I feel like how I've heard that modeled and how I've even experienced that in the past, it was like, Well, pornography can never be part of our future.
So, you know, like, awesome, glad you, glad you told me that it's part of your past, but that's not gonna be an issue moving forward, obviously. [00:11:00] And, and I feel like that just sets you up for so much fear, so much more anxiety. So, so much more pain in the future because there's always a, a question mark of. I don't know if I can trust and I don't know if I'm actually okay.
I also loved the question like, are you okay with that? Wow. That is such a beautiful question because I think that the person struggling with pornography really actually needs to know is, are you okay with what I'm struggling with? Are you okay with. With the parts of me that are working to become better.
And I think, honestly, that's such a good question for the person who's, who's like hearing that because yeah, you gotta figure that out. Are you okay with wherever that person is right now? And if not, that's okay. I think that, I think that if the answer is no, that's an okay answer to no.
In fact, [00:12:00] hallelujah. You know, that like, let's stop now.
Rachel: Right,
Crishelle: let's break up now rather than like five kids later, you know? And, and I don't wanna be flippant about that, but that's a really good thing to know. And if the answer's like, I don't know, then maybe move forward carefully if the answer is. And, and what are your thoughts on that?
Like the, your response to that question I think is so profound as the person not struggling with pornography.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I think, I think it gives her, and I know I'm using this very stereotypically, but I'm just, I'm just saying like her it, it, it gives her the chance to say, I am like, exactly like you said, I am, I. I'm not okay with that and so I, I need to find somebody else. I mean, like that is the greatest gift that you could give a potential person that you marry is saying, I'm gonna let you [00:13:00] see all parts of me.
And by that, the parts of me I'm not proud of the parts of me that struggle with pornography, the parts of me that probably will relapse at some point or view pornography. I'm gonna let you see that, that, that. If you are not okay with that, I need to know now. But if you are, then you, then you choose this, you choose this part of me too. You, you choose the difficulty that's going to come with this, this part. I, I think this, this also has to be a bit carefully said because I think it, like I said before, it easily turn into.
This is just how I am. So take it or leave it. And that, that's not exactly, I mean, I guess you could say it that way. Like you could be like, yep, pornography's always gonna be here, and so are you okay with that or not? But still that, that's better than not [00:14:00] saying anything at all because it's honest.
I, I think just, I think there's so much power in just saying, This is what is true, and and I, and because I love you and because I care about you, I'm letting you truly choose by not having a conversation like this. You're not letting the other person make an infor completely informed decision and really robs them of the ability to choose.
Crishelle: Oh my goodness, I, I think this is so beautiful and I feel so much relief in this conversation because I. I just think even pornography aside, if we approached our dating relationships like this where we're like, this is who I am. Rather than trying to show up as like the perfect person or like hide your faults, like this is who I am and not in like a, I'm never gonna,
Rachel: Right,
Crishelle: what you're saying.
I think that can be taken to an extreme that's not helpful or great, but in just like. Yeah, [00:15:00] sometimes I am stubborn and grouchy about this and, and I'm just trying to think of a silly example, but I think both, both people in a relationship will have the opportunity to show up and have the choice to be honest or to not be honest.
And if, if you choose honesty, it's going to be so much richer and deeper of a relationship. Moving forward and it will give the person an actual choice of whether or not they want to choose you.
Rachel: Absolutely. An interesting personal story that came to mind is when I was dating my husband I don't really remember how this came up, but at, at some point I had told him my, when I am activated and when I'm triggered, my initial reaction is to completely withdraw, which is true. I, I do, I tend to kind of retreat and withdraw and I.
Was activating to him, and so rather than me promising I was never gonna do that in the relationship, rather than [00:16:00] promising that, yeah, yeah, I'm working on it and I won't do that anymore. I couldn't promise that because it's likely it was going to happen in a relationship. But for me to say, this is my natural, like my, my first reactive inclination is to withdraw.
I am working on it because I care about you. I care about me, I care about this relationship, but I want you to know what is true and what is real. Can you handle a partner who withdraws sometimes, and that allowed him to. And so I think I think it's exact same thing when it comes to porn.
Crishelle: Oh, that's such a great example and I just like totally thought of. Yeah, I had a very similar conversation. Probably not when we were dating, it was probably when we were, after we were married. I remember having that conversation of like, Yeah. Yep. I wish I showed up different, but I actually don't. my first response is to not be as kind as I [00:17:00] want to be and can we, how can we help each other? And I love that. I love that because it is way more of a partnership approach and a way more of a honoring the other person's choice. Of how they're going to respond and, and allowing, allowing there to be independence in the, in the choice of how you respond to that, which is, is so refreshing to, to hear modeled in this conversation.
So I'm just so stoked about it because I feel like what was always talked about growing up for me was, oh, well you need to learn how to fight fair all the time. Like, well, sometimes I don't, you know, like sometimes I, I'm, I don't have my best relationship approach happening because I'm tired or [00:18:00] I, and, and if we can be more interdependent in, in owning who we are in our relationships from the very beginning, I think it will just set the tone to move forward in all things so much better. And I feel like that was kind of a tangent, but I hope, I hope that that helps you see that these principles, if they're, if they're specific for pornography, they also apply to everything else in your life. Like they're gonna apply to every weakness that you have in your relationship.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, and, and I think, I think especially in this case, it also allows the other person to. Say if, like, if they choose like, you know what? That's challenging for me, but I'd still choose you. I still choose this. And because like for example, if we go back to the example of me and my husband, if he had said to me, Yes, I still [00:19:00] choose you.
And when you withdraw, when, when that happens, then I, you know, and then maybe he sets a boundary there of like that, that's really challenging for me. And so I will then approach you and say, Hey, I know that you're withdrawn right now. When you're ready, I would like to talk, like, or whatever it may be. But he, he can then come in and set that, set that boundary in, in the beginning, recognizing this is something I'm likely going to bring to the table.
Crishelle: Oh. Beautiful. I feel like also it gives you the opportunity to show up more honestly in always when you're having these conversations this
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: where you can,
you can be free to, to own your emotions and to see them more clearly as your experience rather than, oh, because you did this, you're making me feel this way.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Crishelle: [00:20:00] And, and so, and again, coming back to this question of and, and how you, you were, you were just maybe imagining both of the people having anxiety in, in the relationship where the one wants to prove that he's progressing and she needs him to prove that she's safe to be in this relationship.
Whereas I feel like if you can be more honest, it can allow you to see each other for who you are rather than
having to like show up a certain way in order to be valued.
Rachel: And
how, how freeing that would be. Because then, then what's happening is you're both truly choosing each other. It's not trying to manage the way that someone else experiences you. It's not trying to keep up with a facade, which in a marriage is like, is not sustainable. I just think there's so much [00:21:00] freedom, and especially for someone who is struggling with pornography, to have someone truly choose them, even though they know this will likely be part of the relationship.
I think that that really helps mitigate some of the shame, because if it's going to the relationship of like, yeah, I'm working on it. I'm working on it, I'm really afraid to tell my partner because then. She's going to leave then talk about shame. But if it's, if it's more of, wow, this person still chooses me and she put boundaries in place, but she still chooses me, knowing that this part of me is here it helps really manage that shame.
Crishelle: Oh yeah. I also just think that this would set them up to have some. A much such a deeper and, and better intimacy structure and sexual relationship in the future as well. Where, where [00:22:00] they can both be free to know that they're, they're chosen as they are.
Rachel: right.
Crishelle: You know, because I feel like if there is a facade, if you're having to prove your worth, that's gonna be really difficult.
When you've had three kids, everyone looks very different than they did when they were dating and, but if you can have the basis be, I choose you. For who you are now, for who you for, for all the things about you. That's gonna be so much more, it's gonna be so much more of a secure relationship than if you're having to prove to the other person that you belong in the relationship all the time.
Rachel: Absolutely. And, and with that I would also add that there's still always choice if, if there's a partner that is [00:23:00] not behaving in a way that. You feel is respectful of you or is like, I guess at any point you can say, this is no longer what is best for me? And again, really that coming from regulated place of just saying this I, I, I guess it's continuing to.
Behave in a way that is still worthy of being chosen. And by that I mean honesty of letting you see all of my parts. Even the parts I'm ashamed of and truly continuously letting that choosing part be there. Because I think sometimes we think like, well, shoot, I agreed 20 years ago to marry this person, even though I knew they struggled.
Pornography and things have gotten really bad, but I still made that choice that that choice is still there. You, you still can choose whether or not you want to be. I don't know if that makes sense. I just, [00:24:00] I I
think it's important to, yeah.
Crishelle: I think that's so important to know and, and in your dating relationship, you get to choose every day whether or not you want to date them. Like, and I think the question should be , do I want to be in this relationship when you're dating someone?
Is it, is it something that I want to continue to be in? If the answer's yes, then continue date them. If the answer's like, no, this is actually more work than it feels worth it, then maybe reevaluate that and that's okay to choose out. It's okay that to give yourself the grace in choosing, and I know I stepped back to that dating relationship, but I think that that's really important to recognize that the choice is always yours.
You get to show, you get to decide if you're gonna choose and how refreshing to be in a relationship knowing that your partner's choosing you like wow. That's how freeing and, and beautiful. Any other thoughts as we wrap up this question?[00:25:00]
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I guess I, I think what is the most important part here is. True honesty and accountability to. I guess just to yourself and to your partner. If there's any part of you that feels like I need to hide these things of me, these parts of me and make my partner feel or think a certain way about me that's just, that's not sustainable and that's going to cause problems later down the road. So, I mean, the greatest gift that two people could bring each other is, is two people showing up. Honestly, and, and bringing in the accountability, and I think that just is what sets a really good foundation, a solid foundation for a, for a couple in the future.
Crishelle: Beautifully. Said, I love it. Thank you so much Rachel, and [00:26:00] thank you listeners for trusting us with your questions and for listening in and breaking the silence with us today.