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Honest conversations with working mothers about how they really "do it all"
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Shaina Feinberg Interview
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[00:00:01] Mikenzie: Hello everyone, and welcome to Leaning My Way, a show where I have honest conversations with working mothers about how they really do it all. Today I'm joined by Shayna Feinberg, an award-winning filmmaker and writer from New York City. I. Shana's films have premiered at festivals around the world, including the Tribeca Film Festival.
[00:00:20] Mikenzie: She's a former New York Times columnist, has been featured on the Ultimate podcast. This American Life is the author of four books and is the mother of two kids, a 10-year-old and a 3-year-old. Shana's films are known for their authentic comedic style, addressing very personal topics from body image to pregnancy, and most recently balancing career and motherhood.
[00:00:43] Mikenzie: Okay. Her newest New York Times op-ed film. I almost quit my career for my kids. Then I met Joan Darling went viral last week and for good reason. It so authentically captures the struggle. Mothers go through trying to balance career and motherhood and chose how sometimes just being seen by someone who believes in you is enough to keep going.
[00:01:03] Mikenzie: Shayna's film resonated with thousands of people and she was inundated with messages from fans, including me. I figured it was a long shot, but I told her how much
[00:01:12] Mikenzie: her film connected with the topics I've been exploring on this podcast and asked if she'd be willing to be a guest and you can probably predict, she said yes.
[00:01:20] Mikenzie: This was such an amazing conversation. Shayna's, upbeat, and warm, while also being really open and honest about the struggles of making it as a filmmaker while raising two kids.
We unpack the meaning behind her latest film and dive into topics like how to make it work as two artists, parents in New York City navigating motherhood in the film industry, and how focusing on the quality of your experience has impacted Shayna's approach to both work and parenting.
I.
[00:01:47] Mikenzie: I feel so lucky that Shayna was willing to be a guest in the show and can't wait for you guys to hear it. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Shayna Feinberg.
[00:01:58] Mikenzie: Shayna, I'm very excited to have you here. Thanks so much for joining.
[00:02:03] Shaina: Thanks for having me.
[00:02:05] Mikenzie: I wanted to share quickly some context of how we got here. So for those who haven't seen it yet, Shayna has an amazing New York Times op-ed film, that is called, I almost quit my career for my kids.
[00:02:21] Mikenzie: And then I met Joan Darling and I saw it last weekend and immediately was like, oh, she needs to be on the podcast. This isexactly what I've been exploring in leaning my way. And, it , just really resonated with me. And so I reached out to you. And you were kind enough to respond and be on the podcast literally a week later.
[00:02:45] Mikenzie: So I really appreciate you being here. And I thought we could start actually with the film and giving a little bit of background on the inspiration for the film. And for those who haven't seen it yet, everyone should see it. And I'll put it in the show notes, but a quick summary of the storyline.
[00:03:04] Shaina: Yeah. well, the inspiration is, Three years ago, my husband we're both artists. I'm a filmmaker and a writer, and he's an actor and, and a clown teacher. And he booked a show at Lincoln Center for 10 weeks in a row, which is very exciting for him. But I, at the time had a not yet 1-year-old and also a 7-year-old and was really used to dividing up my parenting duties more.
[00:03:34] Shaina: and so all of a sudden I was just like the number one parent around my kids constantly. it was over the summer, so they weren't in camp, but it was just so much more work than I was used to and a certain kind of work that is really, I'm sure some people are good at. It's not for me.
[00:03:51] Shaina: but at the end of the 10 weeks, I had gotten my first gray hair. Like, it really stressed me out.
[00:03:58] Mikenzie: Oh, no,
[00:03:59] Shaina: and I had been working on actually finishing up an op doc at the time that was about body dysmorphia. But because my husband was working so much, like it wasn't moving forward in the way that I wanted to, and I had already become friends with this woman, Joan Darling, through a freelance gig.
[00:04:16] Shaina: and she had really like, encouraged me when I was pregnant with my second kid to keep going. But it was really this moment, you know, a year into my friendship with her and, Almost a year into having two kids and just being this primary caretaker that I was like, oh my God, I don't think I'm gonna survive.
[00:04:36] Shaina: Like, I don't know what's gonna happen to me because I love making films and I was really struggling and I love my kids, but I'm just not that kind of mom. So my husband was like, you should go meet Joan Darling. And so I had, went up with someone who had a camera and I
[00:04:53] Shaina: brought a zoom recorder and these big red headphones that I have, and I showed up and like, I genuinely had no idea what I was doing. I, thought I was going to collect her stories. I had done a piece about her. in this magazine called Talkhouse Magazine, where I interviewed her and her stories are incredible. Joan she worked at Sundance and still does. She was there in person for 30 plus years. She now does it remotely. andShe had all these famous stories.
[00:05:24] Shaina: And so I thought, okay, I'll go up and I'll collect her stories. But literally the moment I got there, she basically took me under her wing and I was like a wounded animal. And she could just see that like I needed help.
[00:05:38] Shaina: and we spent three days together and I got some of her stories, like I got a couple stories, but it was really just kind of like falling in love with someone.
[00:05:46] Shaina: It was like an extended date. and. I learned a ton about her life.
[00:05:52] Shaina: but it was just goofy like she wanted me to learn this Barbara Streisand monologue. and we like walked around, went to beaches, ate seafood. Like she kind of just restored me and she also put a trance on me.
[00:06:07] Shaina: Shewas like, I'm gonna hypnotize you. And she put this hypnosis spell on me and I like. I can't tell you. but she just restored me. I felt so good and so seen like some people can really see you the way you want to be seen. And she just saw me the way I wanted to be seen. she still does, she just sees me as talented and amazing and like, just, it's so nice.
[00:06:31] Shaina: so it just really encouraged me to keep going.
[00:06:34] Shaina: And so then I came back and now I had all of this footage, way more footage than a person needs to make a short film.like, I had, I don't know.
[00:06:42] Shaina: Dozens of hours of footage of
[00:06:45] Mikenzie: Oh, wow.
[00:06:46] Shaina: And so then I just started cutting it together and I made so many versions of the film before I figured out what it was.
[00:06:56] Shaina: And then I realized, oh my God, what I actually got was that I got my well filled again, and. Then I started to make all these connections between my own mom's story, which is that my mom, had given up her career when she had kids, and really regretted it.
[00:07:16] Shaina: she doesn't regret having kids, but she regrets having given up her career. then it started to come together for me and I started to realize, oh, this is about being a woman and a mom and an artist. And it's also about being a woman who's an artist who doesn't have, you know, 'cause Joan never had kids.
[00:07:36] Shaina: So it was about all these things about being a mom, an artist, not having kids, like giving up on things, not giving up, you know, it felt like this, kind of. Amalgamation of all of these different topics that I think about all the time.
[00:07:51] Shaina: And actually, since I've made the short, I've now realized that she has touched hundreds and hundreds of artists, many of whom are like big names and very successful filmmakers.
[00:08:03] Shaina: And she kind of does this magical spell to them. And I've been interviewing them now for my feature. but yeah, that's kind of the genesis and maybe the summary of the
[00:08:14] Shaina: movie.
[00:08:15] Mikenzie: and I love what you said because it really does capture three storylines of your mother who. Who did not pursue her career and was a full-time mother Joan, who full-time pursued her career and was not a mother. And then you as this in-between trying to figure out how to do both and getting the encouragement and the energy to be like, yeah, I'm doing the right thing.
[00:08:42] Mikenzie: which was really inspiring to see. And I wanted to go back to the part about your mother where it's a very moving interview that you have with her where she shares that she had regrets that she didn't pursue her career in performing. And I wanted to hear from you how that impacted how you viewed your career, especially maybe in the early days of both becoming a mother, but also how your career as a filmmaker would fit into it.
[00:09:11] Mikenzie: I know you didn't always know you wanted to be a filmmaker, but even as just an artist generally.
[00:09:15] Shaina: I mean, I definitely always knew I wanted to be an artist, from a very, very, very young age. And I didn't call it an artist until recently, but I always knew I wanted to be a writer or something, creative my whole entire life. And, because my mom had given up, she did wind up working. She worked as a public teacher, public school teacher,
[00:09:38] Shaina: But that was like easier, the hours, you know, I mean, it was hard work, but it was like she was out by three and so she was home, whereas she had wanted to be an actress and a theater performer, and that's what she was trained as. And she was actually the star of her hometown in Ohio. And you know, I have thisphoto album of this production she did in high school where it was written about in the local newspaper.
[00:10:03] Shaina: And all of these people wrote fan letters to her. And I mean, she really loved doing it and I think thought she was gonna somehow make it. And then at a very young age, it became clear that she just could not balance both having kids and that career. So because of that, that really hung over me as a kid and as, as a grownup too.
[00:10:26] Shaina: And so whenever I would have these moments of like, oh, maybe I should quit, she would always say, follow your star. Follow your star. so I was very encouraged by her too, but I didn't know how you were supposed to make it happen.
[00:10:40] Shaina: and also because she didn't have that success in the creative world, I think there was a part of me that felt encouraged by her, but also like, I didn't see that success in her life, so I didn't know how to emulate it.
[00:10:57] Mikenzie: you didn't have the example of, oh, this is how you do it. This is how you pursue the art and
[00:11:01] Shaina: yeah. And, and then for me, when my husband and I. Got married, he really wanted to have a kid. And it was kind of like, I'll only get married if you wanna have a kid. So I was like, okay, I'll have a kid. and then when I got pregnant with our first kid, you know, I had already been making stuff.
[00:11:22] Shaina: I had made tons and tons of things, but I was all of a sudden, like, I have to make a feature movie. Like my God, we're gonna have a baby. Like, I have to make a, a film. So we made our first feature, for $15,000, just like with a friend of ours shooting it. And our pals were in it and my parents were in it.
[00:11:39] Shaina: My dad was alive at the time. So that interview with my parents was, a piece of the interview that I didn't use in the film, but it always really moved me that my mom. Was clearly so sad about this regret that she had.
[00:11:55] Shaina: and my dad has passed since, but I really didn't feel that my dad had any regrets like that. You know, he, he was a shrink and he had a family and I'm sure he had personal regrets in his life, but he didn't have this major thing hanging over him. And my mom really had that.
[00:12:15] Shaina: and so I think for me, when I've had my first kid, I was just very delusional. Like, it's just gonna work.
[00:12:23] Mikenzie: actually wanna go into when you decided to have your first kid, Monty, where were you at in terms of your career? It sounds like you were like, okay, let's just do this. But was there anygoal either from an art perspective or a financial perspective, or anything like that?
[00:12:39] Shaina: I did it all. So I mean, look, it all is working out for me, but the way I've lived my life has been so cuckoo up until now. I feel likelike some people are like, let me get financially secure before I have kids. Or they work on their career before having kids. I literally just did every single thing at once.
[00:13:03] Shaina: I was really scrapping it together financially and career wise, working all of these kind of Gigs. and my husband was also working all these gigs and we got married and then I got pregnant. it was all at once. Like I know that other people, plan things or are more, I mean, I don't know.
[00:13:27] Shaina: I just did not plan it.but when I was pregnant, all of a sudden I did have this goal of like, I wanna make a feature before I have this baby.
[00:13:35] Mikenzie: And was that motivation a creative motivation or was it a career motivation,
[00:13:41] Shaina: I think it was both. I mean, it was definitely clear, like, okay, everyone says it's gonna get crazy. Once I have this kid, I won't be able to do anything, so let me do this feature so that I have that under my belt and see where that leads me to. but also, the film became about having a kid and thinking that I was gonna have to, give up my career.
[00:13:59] Shaina: Like that's what the movie is about. so, I think the whole thing inspired that film, which is a very, very imperfect film. But I mean, I didn't go to film school. Like I was really learning as I went. and Chris and I were learning together and, we filmed most of it. And then I had Monty and then we filmed the rest of it in the, six weeks after I had him.
[00:14:24] Shaina: and then we kind of edited it as we went. it's a bunch of vignettes together really. and then that film opened a bunch of doors for us. Not that people watched it, but it was like people watched the trailer and they were like, oh, you finished something, so we're gonna hire you. So then all of a sudden we had a baby.
[00:14:46] Shaina: And we also were getting, you know, slightly better gigs because we finished a movie. and we did get distribution for that film. and then we sort of climbed our way up. Like the gigs we got got better and better and better while we had this little kid who was also, I will say it's not that Monty is not a pain or annoying at times, but like Monty was
[00:15:09] Shaina: A very chill kid in a way. he was on our sets, like he's always been very regulated but when we had the second kid who's also a wonderful child, this kid was like humongous. He's huge. And he's like a tough brawler. it's a totally different situation.
[00:15:30] Shaina: And also having two I feel like it's like having 12, it's insane. It totally changes the dynamic. So I feel like for six years I struggled with one kid, but I was still moving up the career ladder and things were getting better for me and I was getting jobs that I really wanted and Chris was getting jobs that he wanted and we would manage having this kid,
[00:15:52] Mikenzie: You're like, oh yeah, I can do this. I can do both. I mean, and I love the irony that you made a film about thinking that you'd have to give up your career because you're having a kid and actually that helped get your career to start to take off.
[00:16:03] Shaina: Oh, totally. LikeI actually, made a film with, the theater maker, AA Ogawa, that's, I'm finishing up tomorrow. But, AA is an OB winner and an incredible theater maker and artist, and, also a parent. And,they, and I talked about, how becoming parents for us actually put our butts to the fire in a way.
[00:16:30] Shaina: Like, I was always insane. I was always making stuff out of college.I sewed these crazy bags. I made these books that I sewed into fabric, and I sold them at this bookstore in Williamsburg. I made hundreds of those. I did a public access TV show with my friend. Like I was always making things, but getting pregnant and then having my first kid really put my butt to the fire in terms of first of all, ambition.
[00:16:55] Shaina: Like I've been so sort of punk, DIY with my art career or with my art that I didn't have any real ambitions. I just was making stuff like a maniac and all of a sudden getting pregnant, I was like, oh my God, I have ambitions. Like I want my things to like go places and I want things.
[00:17:15] Shaina: I want people to watch these things and see these things, and So it, it kind of raised the stakes for me, ambition wise, but also it gave me this schedule, which is like, okay, I have this amount of time to do this and that still stands. Like my kids are outta the house. We leave the house at 8:00 AM I'm usually home by like nine.
[00:17:35] Shaina: and then I have three days a week they stay late for after school. So those are the days that I get my stuff done. And then on Tuesdays and Wednesdays they get out at two 40. So
[00:17:46] Mikenzie: So early for anyone who has a nine to five.
[00:17:50] Shaina: know it's like, so, so it gave me structure. Like it gave me ambition and it gave me structure. And, so for me, actually having a kid really pushed me to be like, oh, I want to do this. I think before that I was doing it and I was embarrassed to admit that I wanted to be. Successful, or a filmmaker or have a seat at the table.
[00:18:13] Shaina: And now I'm like, no, I wanna have a seat at the table. I really do, but I still wanna make the stuff, the way I make it, which uses a lot of lo-fi aspects and mixed media and uses my voice and comedy, you know, so I'm still using my sort of DIY punk roots that I created in my twenties, but I am like, I want it to be on the front page of the New York Times, you know, so,
[00:18:38] Mikenzie: Have you had to make any trade-offs in terms of, okay, my creative outlet will be this, D-I-I-D-I-Y, kind of art punk lo-fi work. But to pay the bills for now,you know, I will do X, Y, and Z on the side. Or have you been able to build your career fully doing your authentic artwork?
[00:19:00] Shaina: You know what? I've been so lucky. So what I will say is there's this thing that people say, I think people attribute it to John Cassavetes, but it's definitely like a Hollywood thing where people say one for me and one for them. So John Cass was known for saying like, I make one movie for myself, meaning it's artsy and you know, whatever I want it to be.
[00:19:25] Shaina: And then I make one for the studio system. And that's how he survived. and I remember years ago, before I had my second kid, I was having a ton of generals, these meetings where you get to meet with like producers or agents or whatever, and this producer was like, you are so lucky because you do one for you, and then the one you do for the other people is still for you.
[00:19:46] Shaina: So I have been really lucky, like.two years where I got to do these things for Audible. And so that was for them, quote unquote. But I still had so much control. Like I got to write one. I directed both. I produced, I got to hireeveryone I know, my husband did the sound design with our friend Brian.
[00:20:08] Shaina: it was something I got to really put my fingerprints on. And I also got to do a column in the New York Times for five years with my friend Julia Rothman. And sure, there's things you can and can't do in that, right? Like, not every single joke that I thought of made it into the edit. but it still really so much was my voice and her voice and our voices.
[00:20:32] Mikenzie: So I've been super lucky. I've also done three books with her. I feel like those are very much me, You know, or us. And so I've been very, very, very lucky that mostly the work I've gotten to do in the last almost decade that pays, like, keeps the lights on, is a form of my art. Yeah.
[00:20:56] Shaina: but then I also have these like passion projects that are really 100% me.
[00:21:02] Shaina: you know.
[00:21:04] Mikenzie: I wanna talk about, you said when we chatted before that you thought you were one and done. So there's six years between your two kids. What change that made you then say, okay, my career is going well, it's going well as a mom now I wanna add a second.
[00:21:20] Shaina: Okay. I'm gonna be really honest with you about this because I
[00:21:24] Mikenzie: That's what we want. Exactly.
[00:21:26] Shaina: so what happened was I was one and done. My child. being pregnant was really scary to me. Even though my pregnancy was completely normal. I'm very anxious. So being pregnant was like a lot for me. and giving birth was not that fun for me.
[00:21:43] Shaina: I know people like it. I, it was a bad, it wasn't a fun day. it's just stressful. It's a lot. I know some people enjoy it anyway, I just felt like this is it for me. I'm good. I have this one kid, he's great and you know, it's hard but we're managing it. and then my dad died.
[00:22:01] Shaina: It's very sudden I was like, oh, maybe we should have another kid. 'cause my kid, Monte has the same blood type as my dad, which is the most rare blood type. So like, he got it from my dad and. It felt like such a direct way that I saw that my dad was being passed down through me to another person.
[00:22:24] Shaina: And so I had a blip. honestly, it was just a blip of time when Monty was two years old, that I thought, oh, we should have another kid. Well, that went away. Like my husband was so psyched. He comes from a humongous Irish family and he was like, yay, okay, we're gonna have another kid.
[00:22:40] Shaina: And then I immediately was like, no, actually I don't want another kid. I was wrong. It's so hard. I'm good. We're good with one. and then again, a few years later when career stuff was getting better and I felt like a little more secure financially, I was like, okay, I'll try. I'll just try. I'm not saying it's gonna happen.
[00:23:03] Shaina: It's hard to get pregnant, whatever. I got pregnant like immediately. And then. Had a miscarriage,
[00:23:10] Mikenzie: Okay.
[00:23:11] Shaina: that was so devastating. I just, it's really like hormonally, it's devastating. It's, it's intense. It's really hard. But then I was like, okay, I'm not gonna do this. I'm definitely not, I don't wanna go through that again.
[00:23:25] Shaina: it felt so awful to like, imagine, I don't know, I just was like, I'm done. We have this one great kid, let's just stick with it. And my husband really, really wanted another kid. And my kid wanted a sibling and it was just a topic for several years that I was like, no. And they wanted it.
[00:23:44] Shaina: and then something happened during the pandemic, like before we got our. vaccines when we were all still kind of, not quite on lockdown, but it was like, you know, everyone was still masked and everything that something happened for me where I was like, alright, I don't know. What am I doing?
[00:24:02] Mikenzie: Like, I didn't know when we were gonna get out of that. And it felt like, okay, fine, we can see if this will happen. And it did happen and it stuck that time. And now I have a three and a half year old. and I did not realize how hard it would be to have two kids. It's really exponentially harder. What do you think are some of the key differences of one versus two for you?
[00:24:28] Shaina: it's like two parades that you have to get to work at the same time. Like one parade is doing this thing and the other parade has all these other floats. Like it's two people who want different food. You know, different clothing things, you know, like they have different requirements for the socks they wear.
[00:24:48] Shaina: they go to bed in different ways. it's just you're adding a whole other personality. and
[00:24:55] Mikenzie: think it's easier, oh, maybe you don't know 'cause you don't have it to reference to, but like your thoughts on the age gap, is that challenging or actually, are there things that are nice about having one kid that's a bit older?
[00:25:07] Shaina: I think it worked for me 'cause they're super into each other. and I can't imagine having like a 2-year-old and then a baby. But I know people do that. That's way more classic and normal. and I think that has totally has upsides like you, get it over with like, I'm. Done with diapers.
[00:25:26] Shaina: 'cause my kid's three and a half and I have a 10-year-old, but I still have a little kid and you know, so I can see the upsides for all of, the different ways to do it and the downsides. but it's just how it worked out for me. but I love my kids and they love each other and I'm so happy they have each other, they're so into each other.
[00:25:50] Shaina: and my husband is really happy. and there's totally moments in my life where I'm like, oh, this is so great. I'm so happy about this. But there's a lot of moments where I'm, I'm never, I never regret it. I obviously like just a human being. I don't regret it. But it is hard. Like I find that when I had my first kid, I.
[00:26:12] Mikenzie: I often was like at parties and like, oh, it's not that hard. You know, we we're figuring it out and now I'm like, it's hard. Like you shouldn't, it's just hard. we're also not rich people. Like we're both artists and we are so lucky to make a living doing things that we love, but like our kids go to public school and they go to public after school and so I can imagine if someone is more stable in the relationship I could imagine that there would be more, Yeah. How do you guys manage with like childcare? Both because childcare in New York City is very expensive, and because I'm sure you guys have kind of these fluctuating schedules with more creative work where it's probably intense at certain periods, and then. Maybe slower at other periods, but not necessarily consistently that way.
[00:27:00] Mikenzie: So how do you guys make that work between the two of you guys?
[00:27:03] Shaina: Well we're so lucky that childcare now is more or less free. 'cause because of three K in New York City, we got a spot for our baby
[00:27:15] Shaina: three K. It's like before pre-K, which
[00:27:18] Mikenzie: Oh,
[00:27:19] Shaina: kindergarten, so it's free. so the daycare was for two and a half years, and is so expensive. It's insane.
[00:27:26] Shaina: but then starting in September, our youngest started to go for free, which is great. Because of a program that, the old Mayor, mayor Bill de Blassio had created. and then our other kid goes to public school and then they both go three days a week to after school, which is super affordable, after care programs.
[00:27:48] Shaina: And then two days a week we pick them up early and hang. so that's kind of the childcare situation. we've definitely had moments where we've used more babysitters, but it's very expensive to use babysitters, so we try to use family. Like my mom lives in the city and then Chris's family lives in New Jersey.
[00:28:05] Shaina: So we arrange for that. But we both have very crazy schedules at times. Like This year I've gone to shoot a whole bunch for the future, and I've also gone to a bunch of festivals and a retreat. And so I've just been traveling a lot and my husband has gone on one international tour with a theater piece, is going to Edinburgh for a week, and then also going to Japan with another international tour in November.
[00:28:35] Shaina: So we basically take turns, and there's a bunch of time in our lives when we're both home and it's normal, but we kind of take turns like in January, he went to Calgary for a week. And so that week I had to do all the childcare. And then when I'd been traveling for shooting he does all the childcare and, you know, so we kind of, trade off.
[00:28:57] Shaina: I would say.
[00:28:57] Mikenzie: you ever had to say no to something because like you both got something scheduled that would require travel or crazy hours at the same time? I.
[00:29:07] Shaina: we try not to say no to things, but I will say that I personally am very aware of how much I can actually do. So when I went to LA recently to shoot for the feature, I knew that I could do five or six days. I couldn't do more than that. so I have been very aware of what I can do.
[00:29:30] Shaina: and then I went to shoot, that was in la then I came home, then I shot in Maine, then I came home, then I went to this residency. I came home for 24 hours so I kind of was like pushing the limits of what I could do there. But, For example, my husband devised and is directing a show that's going to Edinburgh and it's going for the whole time for 21 nights, but it would just be too much for our family.
[00:29:58] Shaina: So we had to make the decision that he was gonna go for seven days. so he's going for the first seven days to get the woman who he's directing all set up, and to be there for the first seven performances and then he'll come home. obviously he would love to get to go for three weeks, but he also knows, that just doesn't work for our family.
[00:30:17] Mikenzie: I wanna talk a little bit about the film industry specifically. 'cause we talked a bit about how it's male dominated and how it's just different factors for a woman working in film. And you talked a little bit about even in your second pregnancy, because it was covid, you decided to basically hide your pregnancy.
[00:30:35] Mikenzie: Can you talk a little bit about that, just like the film industry generally in your experience as a woman, but also specifically the pregnancy piece and why you felt like it was better if no one knew you were pregnant during that time?
[00:30:49] Shaina: I mean, I'll start with that. 'cause I, I definitely felt when I was pregnant with my second kid that I had to conceal it because my career had started going better prior to getting pregnant with him and. has sort of been going better since then, and I, at the moment was getting all these opportunities and felt like if I told people I was pregnant that they would be like, oh, we are gonna rescind that opportunity.
[00:31:15] Shaina: Actually, you're about to have a baby, so you are not available. Like I said, it was during the real heart of the pandemic, I did a lot of Zoom calls where it was just like, maybe a little bit of my boobs and up, like, you could not see anything else. and I just never talked about it.
[00:31:34] Shaina: I really hid it and just kept taking these opportunities and not letting people say no to me because I, I do feel that it gives people pause, you know, Not even so much being pregnant, but what's gonna happen afterwards? Afterwards, which is like having a baby and having to take care of that baby.
[00:31:54] Shaina: And nursing, possibly nursing or not. But either way, it's a lot, you know, to do, at first. And, so I really, really tried. to hide it, and I was able to, and just continue with the opportunities that were coming my way. in terms of the film industry, I find that it's, I mean, there's still just like, not equity, like it's just the number of films made by women, or the number of, like, it's just, it's, I'm often at festivals and the only woman
[00:32:33] Shaina: standing on the stage, you know? so there will be like seven short films and maybe two of them have been directed by women. And, I'm one of those people and the other woman didn't come to the festival or for whatever reason. I also, I went to Hot Docs with a film of mine, which is a really good documentary film festival.
[00:32:53] Shaina: And, there was a, a day when there was 200 filmmakers at this sort of luncheon. And, I was there with my baby who I was nursing. Like I was the only, and so many women came up to me and were like, oh my God, I'm so happy to see you because I wanna have kids or other women came up to me who are older than me, who said I gave up my career for 14 years after having my baby.
[00:33:19] Shaina: So this is so cool to see you here with your baby. There were a ton of dads, a lot of dads there. and I remember at the time feeling like I should write about this because it feels so crazy that they don't at all think about moms. but I also was like, well, I don't wanna not get into film festivals, just because I'm like, this is unfair.
[00:33:42] Shaina: So it's something that I think about a lot. but it also really inspires me. Like, I watch stuff all the time made by men and I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I'm making something. Because, you know, you want more different kinds of voices out there. And that doesn't just go for women. That's also for all kinds of people, people of color, and queer folks and trans filmmakers.
[00:34:06] Shaina: I just wanna have more voices out there and I wanna be one of them. And, I actually was talking to my brother-in-law this weekend because I said it was crazy how inundated I got last week. Like hundreds and hundreds of emails and dms from all kinds of people, but predominantly women.
[00:34:26] Shaina: and I have a lot of male filmmakers who don't really get that, you know, like their films do really well, but people don't reach out to them. And I was saying, I think it's because my stuff is really open and very vulnerable, and it's like this voice that I have that's like a mouse, and also it's just me, you know, talking And, I think, and it just, it's, it's interesting to me, you know, I do think there's something about getting to have my voice out there that feels really good and lucky to me.
[00:34:59] Shaina: And I also feel like other people relate to it because they're like. I don't get to hear that as much. I'm hearing so much of this other thing.
[00:35:08] Mikenzie: Well it's even like you said, showing up to the festival and all these women are like, oh my God, this is amazing to see. And I think your work, I mean, I'm one of those women who was moved by it and reached out because it's putting the narrative out there that I think every woman is experiencing, but feels like they're isolated or doesn't feel comfortable to talk about it.
[00:35:28] Mikenzie: And by you being brave enough to put it out there so authentically, the reason I reached out was because of that. And so I assume, a lot of women feel very seen. In that work that is just different for men. But maybe if a man put out a film that was the equivalent, you know, like I'm struggling as a father and career and was very vulnerable.
[00:35:48] Mikenzie: I just think it's rare that you would see that type of work.
[00:35:52] Shaina: I mean, I definitely got some men too,
[00:35:54] Shaina: but I also with my other OC that I did two years ago, which is about having body dysmorphia, I got a lot of people reaching out to me then too, not as many. But, I think it was the same thing of just being very vulnerable. And you know, in general, that's something I was raised by my dad who was a shrink, and my sister and brother-in-law are shrinks.
[00:36:14] Shaina: So my films are so much like talk therapy and, I do think that that's part of why people reach out is because it feels very like, oh, we're not, like, I told you about my miscarriage because I've already written an essay that's on the internet about it. Like it's not a secret.
[00:36:31] Shaina: And, feel like I have all these things that we feel like all this shame or something about these things and it feels better to just talk about them. And actually my husband, who's a clown teacher, his whole thing is that clown is about bringing up the shame and then presenting it to people in like absurd or funny way.
[00:36:53] Shaina: And that's what he does with his clown classes. And I feel like in a way that's kind of what I'm doing with
[00:36:59] Mikenzie: Yeah. 'cause your film is funny.
[00:37:01] Shaina: Yeah, it totally, yeah,
[00:37:02] Mikenzie: but it's very real.
[00:37:04] Shaina: this is real. Like these are real things that I was, or have or am struggling with.
[00:37:11] Mikenzie: in the film you show at the beginning you're like, I get rejection after rejection, at least, you know, towards the beginning of motherhood and career. Can you talk a little bit about that time? how was that for you and how did you find the strength to keep going forward in it?
[00:37:29] Mikenzie: I love that you're talking about that rejection as if it's from a long time ago, Okay. Maybe it
[00:37:34] Mikenzie: wasn't that long ago, but 'cause we were talking about in the past few years your career's really been taking off. And I know in art, and I have a lot of friends who are artists and speak to a lot of artists and , it's just this consistency, so much rejection you have to keep moving forward.
[00:37:48] Mikenzie: So once again, it's one of those things that I feel like is not talked about, but everyone's experiencing it and it's so. Important I think speak about it openly and then see the other side as well.
[00:37:59] Shaina: Yes, for sure. So, I mean. I definitely get more yeses now than I used to, thank God. but still a part of being an artist in any variety.I think from, at least anyone I've ever talked to is rejection is a part of it. Like, you have to put yourself out there so much. And, you know, there's there's getting funding, there's landing somewhere, right?
[00:38:25] Shaina: And so, I've been so lucky in the last, I would say it's really heated up for me in the last year that I've had so much more acceptance, to the point now, you know, there's a thing called film free, which is where you apply to film festivals and.
[00:38:41] Shaina: I had been getting so many rejections from them that I would see the film freeway email in my inbox and just be like, Ugh. but now I've been getting so many acceptances and it's very exciting. And so I still sometimes get a rejection, definitely I get way more yeses.
[00:38:56] Shaina: but just part of this field is that you, like I reach out to people for funding or for places for my things to live and it's not always a yes. And, you know, there's reasons why, and it's fine and it doesn't make your work bad.
[00:39:14] Shaina: something I've really learned from going to film festivals is that the films that they choose. Are not better than the ones they reject. They just fit into some thing that they're doing. so I would say if you're a filmmaker, this is something I want people to know. The rejection is really not about what you're making, keep making what you love and getting better at it.
[00:39:39] Shaina: and you know, I do think you get to a point in your career if you keep going. I remember my friend Dave Hill told me before I turned 30, he was like, keep going. 'cause at 30 a bunch of people drop off. And that what I've discovered is you keep going and at 30 a bunch of people drop off.
[00:39:55] Shaina: You keep going. 'cause when people get married, a bunch of people drop off. You keep going because when they have kids, a bunch of people drop off. I just never dropped off. And so my career has gotten better and I've gotten more yeses because I've given myself the time to get better and to just keep going.
[00:40:13] Shaina: but I would just say like for anyone out there doing stuff that's artistic and creative, you have to just keep doing it and take your, celebrate your wins. my producer Liz Durkin, we meet every week and we have the first agenda item is gossip, complaints wins, and we gossip about whatever. And then we complain about any like, ugh, what a bummer about this thing that we didn't get, or whatever.
[00:40:39] Mikenzie: And then we're like, we got into these festivals, or we got this funding. Like this is yay. You know? So I just think, you just have to have space for all of those things and But you know, the, the title of the film is I almost Quit My Career to Be a Mother. Right. So was there ever a point where you were like, I can't do this anymore? Or was it more just like, this is hard, but I know I'm gonna keep going. I have to do this.
[00:41:04] Shaina: No, I mean, that was the moment for me. It wasn't that I was going to just be a full-time mom, because that would never be financially possible for me, but I thought it was time to quit filmmaking because being a mom was so hard and the rejection was so hard with the filmmaking that it was just like these two really hard things at once.
[00:41:28] Shaina: And so when I was pregnant, I thought, I just think this is too hard and I need to stop, filmmaking and just get like a regular job somewhere.
[00:41:38] Shaina: and then that went away. And then again, when he booked that gig at Lincoln Center it came back that feeling where I was like, I don't think I can do this because it's just too hard. but then going to see Joan really saved me. so yeah, there's totally moments. I mean, I'm hoping I'm past that now. but there have been moments in my life where the weight of being a mom to really little kids and the weight of the rejection from filmmaking made me think like, oh, I guess I have to just get some kind of like regular job, you know?
[00:42:13] Mikenzie: take pressure off of one side of this
[00:42:16] Shaina: Yeah, and also, you know, just like go, like work somewhere and not have to get so much rejection. but I'm really happy that I didn't do that. and so I'm hoping that I'm past that at this point. Hope, you know, past thinking that I need to quit my career as a filmmaker. and can do both.
[00:42:36] Mikenzie: in the film, one of the key things that Joan said to you that seemed to have a big impact was All that matters is the quality of your experience. And then I think, fuck the container. Is that what it was?
[00:42:51] Shaina: the only thing that matters is the quality of your experience. Fuck the container.
[00:42:56] Mikenzie: What does that mean to you? And why was that kind of so impactful for you?
[00:43:01] Shaina: I feel like what it means that the only thing that matters is the quality of your experience is like, we have to just try to find a way to enjoy these things that we're doing. Like enjoy this moment or enjoy, the part of the edit when you're in a film where it's not yet working or as a parent, like, I, I remember there was a time when my youngest, opened a bag of Cheerios and they went everywhere and my husband
[00:43:26] Shaina: was wearing like a shirt and underwear and just vacuuming them up. And I was just so overwhelmed by parenthood in that moment for some reason. And he was like, let's just enjoy this. what's the big deal? It's just some Cheerios. But the point is, I think that Joan was saying we have to find a way to enjoy all of these moments that we have and it's the quality of your experience.
[00:43:47] Shaina: It's not what you end up with in the end. It's really like how can you make that feel good or how can you enjoy it no matter where you're at? And that was something I really needed to hear at that moment. Not only as a parent and a filmmaker, but also I was struggling with finishing this film about body dysmorphia and talking to her about that.
[00:44:11] Shaina: And she was kind of like, fuck the container. Like, who cares what the body is. It's really what is the experience, you know? and I've actually really taken that for. So many things.
[00:44:26] Shaina: It's about the quality of the experience. Like the interview with my mom is pretty lo-fi, it's an amazing
[00:44:34] Mikenzie: so powerful.
[00:44:35] Shaina: the stuff with me and my mom and my baby in the beginning that's, I'm just shooting that myself on an iPhone. like it doesn't look great, but it's so funny to me. And it was so that moment in my life.
[00:44:50] Shaina: So again,It doesn't matter what it looks like, it's what are you getting out of that experience when you watch it? so for me it just sort of transcends, like it helps with all kinds of things.
[00:45:02] Shaina: you know, and I think as a parent you have a lot of, especially, I don't know if this is true in other places, but I really feel that in the US or in Brooklyn, there's all of this like your kid is supposed to be some kind of prodigy or something, you know, like amazing electric guitar or whatever.
[00:45:19] Shaina: And I've really used her advice to just sort of allow my kids to enjoy their lives and have fun and play and use their imaginations and be less like, oh my God, my kid is not the star of whatever. but you know, they'll play a game for an hour where they're pretending to pick apples in the bathroom and they seem to be having fun.
[00:45:44] Shaina: So, I don't know. It's the quality of the experience, you know.
[00:45:48] Mikenzie: Yeah. Well, I feel like kids are the best example of that, right? Like picking apples in the bathroom they're just like, this is great. Life is great.
[00:45:56] Shaina: Yeah. So I think that's what we all have to do. And I try to use that advice. in everything, like my movies are imperfect, but it's the quality of the experience. My parenting isn't perfect, but it's the quality of the experience, you know?
[00:46:10] Shaina: so that's what I'm using it for and I think it a lot of people related to that.
[00:46:16] Mikenzie: it's awesome. It seems like embracing that has also helped your career really take off in the past few years, and. I was wondering what with that mindset, looking forward in your next chapter, what are you really excited about in terms of the experiences you wanna have, both as a filmmaker and a mother?
[00:46:37] Shaina: I I'm really focusing on this feature documentary about Joan and me now. And, I've been interviewing a lot of her past mentees and I am working really hard to fulfill this one last wish of hers. this storytelling wish. And that's sort of what is driving the film.
[00:46:57] Shaina: and I'm super excited about that and nervous can I make it happen? you know, in time. And so it. feels like there's real stakes. It's really exciting and stressful at times, but I, I really love it. and as a parent, I'm excited to just keep sort of improving and being less stressed out by my children and more accepting, you know, like my kid was on this soccer travel team for about eight months and wound up really despising it and eventually we were like, okay, you can quit.
[00:47:36] Shaina: I mean, we didn't want Monty to do it, but Monty wanted to and then did it, and then was like, it's not for me. And so eventually we were like, okay, we can quit. And the first night that Monty didn't go to soccer, He and Nino played for like an hour, this apple picking game. And it was so cute. And I was like, in defense of quitting, I don't know, it just felt so good to be like, I let my kid quit a thing after hemming and hawing, like, is it okay to let your kid quit things?
[00:48:03] Shaina: And it was such a great decision and my kid's happier and I'm happier and like, I don't know, I guess I'm hoping to just sort of let myself and my family and my friends be themselves more. And that feels like a nice goal
[00:48:17] Shaina: so yeah, that's the stuff I'm looking forward to.
[00:48:21] Mikenzie: very exciting. And I like to end on just three quick fire round questions. So I'll ask a question then quick response I've heard they're challenging, but the first is, one, have your kids taught you that makes you a better filmmaker?
[00:48:38] Shaina: well my, my oldest thinks of himself as a filmmaker and whenever he's filming, like if he's having us film him and he doesn't like the take, he's always like, cut, cut, cut, cut. And, and we're like, no, no, no, we don't have to cut 'cause we can cut it out in post.
[00:48:54] Shaina: I think it definitely made me realize that's something I already was leaning into. which is Actually the best stuff is all the stuff that you think you should be cutting out. Because when you get to the edit, that's the funniest, most real stuff. So I think I've learned that from working with my filmmaker child is that, you know, it's good to sort of just let things roll.
[00:49:14] Mikenzie: meta you learn from your child as the filmmaker.
[00:49:17] Shaina: yes.
[00:49:20] Mikenzie: Amazing. And then, if you have the budget to create a new kind of mini feature film around an authentic experience you're currently having, what would it be about?
[00:49:31] Shaina: Oh my God, this is like hard 'cause I have so many, but, let's just say I got to do another like mini doc you're saying?
[00:49:39] Mikenzie: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:41] Shaina: two that I would love to do. One is, my husband is a sober alcoholic. He's been sober almost 13 years, and I would love to make a film. That's basically like I'm married to a sober alcoholic.
[00:49:54] Shaina: What does that mean for my kids? Like this is a person who comes from a family of alcoholics, some of whom are sober, some of whom are not. I am really curious what that means, as a parent to these people, you know, who are, obviously they're still very young, but what does that look like? and so that's something that we talk about a lot, me and Chris.
[00:50:15] Shaina: and I also had a boyfriend in college who then I broke up with and we were best friends for so, so, so, so long. And then, his wife, I pretty sure his wife was like, you guys can't be friends anymore. and we are no longer friends really. so I would love to make a documentary about that.
[00:50:34] Shaina: Ooh.
[00:50:35] Shaina: I'd love to have like clips from when Harry met Sally
[00:50:38] Shaina: and I guess I would explore it with him, but also on my
[00:50:41] Mikenzie: If he's willing to, yeah.
[00:50:43] Shaina: yeah, I dunno, I just am so curious about it, like, can you have these relationships? I think you can, but anyways, so those are two that I would love to do.
[00:50:52] Mikenzie: Those are great. I'm excited to see them one
[00:50:54] Mikenzie: day. And then the last one is, what's one piece of advice you'd give your pre-kids self?
[00:51:02] Shaina: Hmm. To not be ashamed to want things.
[00:51:07] Shaina: I really didn't allow myself to want stuff until right before I got pregnant with my first kid.
[00:51:14] Shaina: I did a lot of stuff and I thought, oh, well I'm not gonna try to have a TV show, or I'm not gonna try to have a hit movie or whatever.
[00:51:22] Shaina: And I think that it was right before I got pregnant or after getting pregnant that I was like, wait, no, no, I don't wanna be small anymore. so that would be advice to literally anyone is like, don't be small.
[00:51:33] Shaina: we have this one precious life and just live, you know?
[00:51:39] Mikenzie: That's a great way to end it. I love that. Thank you so much,
[00:51:43] Mikenzie: Shayna. This was such a nice conversation. I love everything you're doing. I'm excited to see the Joan documentary and all these feature films that you
[00:51:51] Mikenzie: make. And I really appreciate you answering my DM of one of the many. I saw that you answer like everyone's comments.
[00:52:00] Mikenzie: it's really special.
[00:52:03] Shaina: Thank you. Yeah, I really try. I did get hundreds of emails and it was intense and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna take it one at a time and do it. But I feel like at this stage right now, it's important because people are reaching out and they wanna feel connected, so
[00:52:23] Mikenzie: You have fans. It's
[00:52:25] Mikenzie: exciting.
[00:52:27] Mikenzie: That's all for today's episode of Leaning My Way. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on Apple
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[00:52:40] Mikenzie: Know someone with a unique story about balancing career and motherhood. Or maybe you have that story yourself. Reach out. I'd love to hear from you. Okay, until next time, friends.