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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
it is my pleasure to welcome
Matt Agnew to the show.
Matt has spent 15 years as a B2B SaaS
product marketer working in a mix of
startups and enterprise organizations.
Most recently, he was tasked with building
product marketing from the ground up
and is leading and growing the PMM
function at an enterprise SaaS company.
And today, he's sharing how he did
it, the lessons he has learned, and
his tips both for PMMs and PMM leaders
who are currently in this scenario.
Matt, it is amazing to
have you on the show
Hi, Elle.
I'm so excited to be here.
I know it's sounds nerdy, but I do love
talking me some product marketing, so
Yes.
Let's get into it.
Uh, okay.
So I want to start with the case study
for how you grew, and are currently
growing, the product marketing function
inside a super, very well-established,
um, company where product marketing
may have been largely underserved.
So tell me more about what
was going on when you first
encountered this in your career.
Yeah.
So first off, you know, if you look on
the internet, it'll tell you that you
should have one product marketing manager
for every three to five product managers.
So at this particular company, when
I came in, there was essentially
between, you know, almost 100 product
managers, so a very large company,
and one product marketing manager.
We-- There also was, there also
was an intern who was really
punching above her, her weight
class and doing an, an amazing job.
But what I soon realized was is
that this was a company where people
have been there for a long time.
People had a very strong idea of
how things should work, and somehow,
uh, I guess a lot of them haven't
really heard of the traditional
aspects of product marketing.
So what I realized was there was product
marketing happening, just not in the
right places and by the right people
So what were some of the big symptoms
that you were finding as you got started
and you realized, like, "Okay, we
really need a PM- a true PMM function"?
some things that I have seen, um, in
my personal career and then, and also
thinking through some of the guests
that I've had on the show in the past,
is maybe, maybe running into folks
internally who don't really understand
what product marketing is, or, um, you
know, maybe they were really surprised
to find something, that should be common
knowledge, but, you know, the r- the
org hasn't been operating that way.
So h- tell me about that moment
when you realized, like, "Okay, we
need a totally different approach.
We need a formal PMM function."
Well, as I mentioned, you
know, people were doing product
marketing and they didn't know
they were doing product marketing.
So I would have a meeting where people
would show me a deck that they created
for sales that was ready to go.
It was talked about at the
last SKO, and here we are.
And I looked at it and I was like,
"This is core industry positioning about
our core product, about our company."
And when I kind of dove into it, I
realized that, you know, not everyone
who should have looked at it really
looked at it, and the person looking,
working on it did a great job.
But again, you have to kind of take
that s- those steps back and say, you
know, "Did we do ev- did we review
everything we should be doing with it?"
You know, following what someone who's
been doing this for a while would do.
So it wasn't that it was bad, it just
was that it was happening at so many
different places without that name to it.
And then what really was happening
was everybody was diving right in.
I use the analogy that it was
like people were going on a road
trip without a map or a plan.
And they get there, you know, they,
they get there and they'd have a
wonderful time, but it definitely took
a lot longer and, you know, definitely
could have been a smoother ride
Yeah.
Well, and what else happens when
you have, um, very, I'll say, um,
assertive, um, folks internally who go
forth and do something like create a
deck on their own, which has happened,
I think probably at every single
SaaS company in the history of SaaS
companies, and who were not in PMM.
Um, and what sometimes what happens, or
most very often what happens actually,
is you don't have everybody in the
company speaking the same language.
They're not telling the same story.
So you have that inconsistency now about
your product out in the market, that may
actually change where the des- what the
destination looks like for some folks.
So maybe not everybody in the
company goes f- like to use your
analogy, not everybody ar- may, might
arrive at the right destination.
same time, you
Oh, right.
Oh, yeah,
and that's what was kinda happening.
You know, my audit, there were nine
different teams that were basically
doing nine different things, and
sometimes there was some overlap,
but… And, and this is, people were
kinda surprised when I mentioned this,
but then they would kinda think for a
second and say, "Oh yeah, you're right."
And so it, it was just one of those things
where people were one… And it was, none
of it was done with any sort of malintent.
It was all everybody
wanted to do a good job.
Everybody wanted to
talk about the product.
It was just a symptom of we don't know
what we don't know, and we don't know
that there's a better way to do this
Okay, so you walk into this
super well-established company.
There's no PMM function.
Where do you even get
started to create one?
Yeah.
And it was funny because
my ask was very, very open.
It was, "We know that this is an
underserved industry. We don't necessarily
know how to fix it. We want you to
look around, give us some suggestions,
tell us what you wanna do, and then
go do it." And it was, you know,
and I actually love that approach.
It's, you know, I'm a
creative person in my trade.
I have a degree in creative nonfiction
writing, which is a weird thing.
But I do like the idea of kind of
taking a step back and tackling
things from that approach.
And, and so the first thing I
did was I just booked meetings
with everybody, and people were
surprised when I was doing this.
Like, people were like, "How did
my name come across, you know, your
plate?" And I was like, "I looked
at the org chart and thought I
should talk to this person." I did.
And then just 'cause people hadn't
made those connections with what
product marketing should be doing,
and I was like, "You know, we
should be probably talking weekly.
We should be talking daily.
We should be talking bimonthly." And so
I just went out and spoke to everybody,
and while I was listening, I al- I was
slightly just peppering in my experience,
and it was, you know, what I've done in
the past is I added this to things, or
the way you're doing this, if you actually
present it slightly around, I find
that sales reps do a little bit better.
So I was just kind of peppering in
those little things, and then it kind
of just got around where it's like,
"Hey, maybe we should include Matt i-
in, in some projects and some things."
So I started getting involved in more
things and, and then again, I'm not one
to, you know, take an existing process
and just do that existing process.
I presented what I was doing.
I presented the benefit every time, and
that's just… And that ended up just
kind of slowly, slowly working until
I became incredibly busy and people
were just constantly involving the
team in things a- as we should have.
And it worked out really well,
actually a lot faster than I had hoped
I love that, and I just need to
call out something that you did.
It's a small strategy that you applied,
but I think it's, was really beneficial
in earning credibility, right?
You mentioned peppering in some
of those, your experiences, right?
You're kind of alluding
to your credibility.
Now, you're not saying this
outright, but it's another way of
communicating to your stakeholders
of, "This is why you should trust me.
I have this experience, and this is
what I have seen to work really well."
and so you kind of, you state what,
how you would do something different,
and then you pepper in the, the proof.
You know, "And here's how I know
this for sure, because I've done
it." Um, but you didn't have to, you
didn't say those words, obviously.
want, just reiterating for our
listeners why I think the way that you
went about this was so effective, was
also because in every conversation,
yes, you were listening, and that is
absolutely, you know, what you should
do, but you were also providing value.
And I think that's why that happened so
fast for you, because people realized,
"This guy's here to listen to me, and
he's here to make my life better."
Yeah.
And another thing was I fought the urge to
just dive right in and start doing things.
And that was actually one of the most
challenging things, 'cause I would
see a deck and have ideas of when I
do it, I would see people planning
a, a webcast and wanna give feedback,
and I just, you know, so many times
Oh
just…
Quite guess it was I didn't wanna get too
tactical right away because I, I wanted to
really make sure I understood everything
and 'cause it was a big company that's
been around for a long time and, you know,
I'm still, I s- it took me a long, long
time to learn things, still learning.
And it, it just, it was such a, it was
just such an, an interesting thing of
let's not jump right in and do work.
Let's not jump right in and be tactical
'cause I, I really wanted to make sure
that I knew what the company needed.
I knew they needed a
strategic approach to this.
They needed pro- people to be
more proactive, and I was like,
if I just jump in, it's gonna
be the, the same thing they had
Yes.
A- and a, a distraction to you, right?
From actually bui- being, uh, getting
a chance to build your strategy.
So that's smart.
Um, and I know the urge you're describing.
Like, I just need to go and do it.
We love to help, right?
That's, that's what product marketers are.
Like, we just love seeing a something
and saying, "Here I am," you know?
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
quick follow-up about the stakeholders
that you met, that you met with.
Did you have any, like, strategy
behind who you were gonna meet with?
You mentioned an org chart.
Um, is there anyone specific that
you, um, obviously not naming names,
but, like, functions within the org
that you realized you really needed
to meet with those individuals?
I went high and low.
And I, you know, like I went low, I
just people that… 'Cause this was,
again, a very interesting company where
there was a lot of people, I would say
a good 75% of the people I met with
were there for more than 13 years.
And so I, I did not shy away, and I
think this was why some people were
surprised, I just booked meetings
with VPs and, and C-level people
and just threw myself in there.
I remember someone kinda coming back
to me and being like, "You know what?
I'm their assistant.
You're supposed to come through
me." And I was like, "Oh, so th-
well, now I know, but can I still
meet with them?" And, and
so yeah, I just did it.
And like I said, I would, you know, it's
being-- I wanted them to meet me and
see that I was excited to do this and
see that I wanted to hear what their
problems were, and I had some experience
doing this and some success doing it,
and that was just really the thought.
And, you know, if, you know, I took
good notes when I did it, and then I,
I really made sure to apply everything.
And, and really what I wanted to
do is when I talked to everybody,
I created themes that I heard.
And when the, whatever came up the most,
this is kinda what I went back to, to my
leadership and said, "You know, these are
the things that are coming up most often.
I- here's a strategy I, I really think
that we should take to tackle this."
'Cause I, you know, when I met with
them, the, I heard a lot of things that
they didn't even know about, right?
You know, there, there was a lot of
problems that they weren't even aware of.
A- and, and I heard a lot of the
same things, then applied that
to, okay, this should probably
be something we tackle first
I love that.
So good.
And then when you were meeting with
people, I'm curious, how did you
distinguish between this is what
people wanted PMM to do versus what
you feel like product marketing
actually needed to do, and was there
anything surprising between those two?
Yeah.
I was very honest and, and… 'cause a
lot of-- When I first started meeting
people, a lot of people would say,
"You know, the product marketing is
probably not really traditional here.
You know, it's maybe been a little
underserved, hasn't gotten the love
it needed." And the more I heard that,
I realized, you know, when I go into
meetings, I'm gonna say I understand
that right away and say, "I get that.
That's what they're doing.
My plan is that, you know, we really
need to grow it." And, you know, 'cause
there was-- That's the thing, there was
good product marketing work happening.
There really was.
It ju- it was very reactive, and
it-- there was doing good, and
I don't think people realized.
And so I just told people, I was like,
"You know, this is product marketing.
I think this is what
we're doing right now.
Like, this from here to
here is what's getting done.
This is good.
You know, like it's very good right
here, but there's just so many other
things here that either the company's
not doing at all or that is happening
in other departments." And what I
would say to people is like, "You
know, you don't wanna do positioning.
You don't wanna do messaging.
That's not your job.
You're just doing it because nobody
else did." And I said, "Imagine if I
gave that to you, and then how much
better would your deck have been or
would your, you know, this, this webcast
would have been if I did this first and
you didn't have to spend the time doing
the research and the client interviews
and the, the technical validation and
like, I'm gonna do all that for you."
I love the way that you described
that, it's in that, and so I'm just
noticing a theme about you and how
you, um, manage your stakeholders.
You're reiterating the value that
you are delivering, that you're
bringing to the table, You're
doing it a very strategic way.
It's not in, like, a, you know, "This
is why you should trust me." It's
even the way that you described it of,
"Imagine if I did all this for you,"
the this, the that, the this, the that,
and then letting your strengths shine.
Um, so I just ha- I just com-
I'm commending you on that 'cause
I think that was a very smart
way to manage stakeholders.
okay, so here you are.
You're in this new org, established,
um, uh, company, but not an
established product marketing function.
You're finding the gaps.
You're going high and low.
what actually changed once you started
to put that foundation into place?
So we, there was a sales
enabl- enablement team.
So, you know, normally that's under
product marketing, but there was a, a
quite large sales enablement team, and
there was something that our alliances
team wanted to get out that they
thought was this really valuable new
concept, uh, and they wanted to have,
you know, train the sales team on it.
And before I had kind of shown my
approach, really shown, you know,
how I wanted to do this, I actually
had it ready, like it was done.
I spent time on it, but I hadn't shown
the, the, the sales enablement team.
And so they had said, they said, "We
could probably start this, um, in
a month and a half, and then so…
and that means we'll probably get the
training out in about three months."
This is what they said. So I said, "Cool.
Let me show you something." So I showed
him my, what I had come up with, and
I generally have three things that
I like to, that I, I start with when
there's a new concept or a new product.
It's, one, it's how to get
the salespeople excited.
Uh, two, it's how to get the
client excited, so telling
them how to quickly get their
prospect or their client excited.
And then three, what to do next.
I, I don't really like to go a lot
further than that because, you know,
salespeople wanna count their money,
and they wanna go out and do their
own, you know, just get to work.
And so if you go too far, they lose it.
But, so I had showed them this, this
presentation that I had made where I had
built this concept, 'cause… So when
the concept was explained to me, and this
was again, one of the fir- was something
that people were surprised about.
I, I've been in tech for, for 15 years.
I, you know, I, I
understand it quite well.
When it was explained to me, I stopped
and I said, it took me 10 minutes to say,
"Oh, okay, I get it," you know, when,
when the team was explaining it to me.
And I said, "I, I get it now. I,
uh… It's great. I do think we should
do that, but we need to make that
30 seconds or, or there's no point
doing this." And originally, I had
seen what they would do in the past.
What they would've done is create
these giant PowerPoints and this huge
go-to-market plan and all these jumping
right in and start writing things.
And that's why I said, "Let's
explain it in 30 seconds," uh,
to both internal and external.
So I did that, and then so when I went
to the sales enablement person, instead
of it being, "We could probably be done
with this in three to four months," he
said, "We could start it next month."
So it was essentially, it was after he had
saw my work, it was essentially going to
be in the hands of the salespeople about
two months faster than it would've been.
Because again, he would've had to spend
the time kinda looking at it and doing it.
So, so that was one.
And then, uh, another thing with the
being more, being more, um, proactive
than reactive, the way people had kind
of thought of product marketing was
this catch-all, that if I make a, like a
technical mistake or a product mistake,
the product marketing is gonna catch it.
And that was great, and then,
and then it was working.
But what I realized was that we were…
Sometimes you would have to change
something that would be quite expensive.
So I also started putting in some
proactive approaches with AI, where
we would kinda, we would create
skills that would basically be
acting as an, an IT person or, you
know, a product-minded person that
could get some of these things in.
So when the designers were building
something, if they were, you
know, creating a video or creating
an image, they now knew, had a
better idea of what one to create.
So in the past, it would've been
like, "Oh, I made a mistake.
That video doesn't fit in here, so
I have to go back, so my deadline
is gonna get pushed two weeks.
And all of those tokens I used to,
you know, either buy stock footage
or create it with AI, I, I-- that got
ruined, and now I gotta do it again."
So there was also just a, a small
amount, but some tangible money and time
savings I, I could point to as well.
And then there was, like, you
know, client benefits as well.
But I-- you know, we all want those, so I
like to try to focus on some of the, the
other things that I find important too.
Wow.
Okay, so a lot of your focus with
establishing this PMM function was,
of course, obviously being a good
listener and filling in the gaps.
But once it becomes, um, once you get
to that execution phase of, of building
and actually doing the good PMM work,
it's around having that, I would say,
shared i- and, like, adynamo effect
of a, of excitement for not product
marketing necessarily, but it's cool
that it comes from product marketing,
um, but for basically your narrative and
what your product can do for the world.
And I love that on top of that,
you've sprinkled in, um, some
financial results as well.
Um, so it sounds like ultimately
your PMM function as you have been
building and probably are continue
to, continuing to build it because
it's, it doesn't, it takes time,
and it's an always on activity.
Um, but it sounds like y- the big
early wins were centered on stakeholder
alignment, which is probably the
biggest, most important part of
establishing the PMM org, um, and then
filling in, and starting to fill in
the gaps, and I'm sure you probably
had some kind of prioritization
as you went along doing that.
And then getting people jazzed up
and excited and, um, and I'm kind
of parroting back what I think I
heard you say, there was a lot of,
um, uh, proving your value along the
way in the little ways and big ways,
We all have to do that.
And, and again, it was, it
was a senior role I, I was
hired for, and I, I knew that.
And, you know, when I was interviewed by
one of the VPs for my, my final interview,
and one of the things he said that
really stuck with me was, it's, you know,
"You're here to teach us something." And
it was so, it's like, you know, I have
to come here and, and show that, yeah.
And I… And you know, we all have those
moments where we think, oh, you know, I
remember saying to my wife, it's like I
would start to wonder, "Well, this is kind
of scary, you know, what I'm doing here.
I'm jumping into this, this big existing
company that's doing well financially,
and there's all these people doing stuff."
And then I, you know, would start
to be like, "Wait a minute, I
actually do know what I'm talking
about." And it was, and it was good.
And I was like, "Yeah, well, I can
provide value and I, and I can do
that." And when I, I got over that,
I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna show 'em." And, and it worked
I love that.
Did you have, like, a su- any
super proud moment during, you
know, I guess some of this, from
when you first started till now?
I think because I knew I had to fight
to have… I didn't wanna be r- the
team to be reactive anymore, and
that was the, that's what it was.
Like, that was kind of policy
was, you know, at the last second,
let's ask PM what, what they think.
And that, that really,
that was the, the role.
And so I was like, "I
need to be proactive."
And I was like, "It's gonna take long."
But actually, quite early, there was
an email thread that I was kind of, uh,
in, like, the bottom of, and I was, and
I was like, "Ugh," I and it was just a,
you know, example of people jumping ahead
and, you know, that, that story of, of,
uh, you know, running without walking and
going on the ro- the trip without a map.
And I just was… And then about 20
minutes later, a senior, a person
on the, uh, the senior leadership
team that I had met the week before
said, said, "Let's stop this.
I want, um, here's Matt," and brought
me in on the, the email thread, even
though I was already in there kinda
hiding, and, like, brought me up and
said, you know, "@Matt," you know, like,
"I want, you know, Matt should be here.
Matt should be the one kind of, kind of
leading this." So it was like I did that.
I got to that proactive stage so
much faster, and it was 'cause like
I, I had pitched my value to him.
He saw that.
He knew what I was able to do, and
so he said, "Yeah, like, if we put
Matt in earlier, uh, it's gonna be
better." And it, and it was great.
And, and that… So that
was really a nice win.
And then another… Yeah.
And another really good one was
kind of the, I also get the, I, I,
I get excited talking about, about
Me too.
I know.
Yeah.
It's good
I told people that at work, and I
think that, that they saw that too.
Like, I would tell people,
it's like I, I'm excitable.
So but, uh, and another really
good one was the, you know,
the whole no news is good news.
You know, when I, you know, the direct
senior leadership that were there for
a very, very long time, you know, I,
I realized they just were… It's not
that they were too busy for me, 'cause
I saw how they worked with other people.
They were trusting me.
They were, they were
trusting me to get work done.
And so, like, if I, you know, when
I got to this point where it was
just s- you know, where I would
start to hear, "Makes sense to me."
And I was like, "Great." You know?
'Cause I, I realized I don't
have to keep selling myself.
I have this right idea, and, and
I was not getting a lot of, "We'll
do this, this, and this with it."
I was get- And I was getting, "Okay,
here's what I think can do to help
you be successful with that." And I
was like, "This is great." You know?
This is such a different approach, you
know, than a lot of people are used to,
where you used to come up with an idea,
and then somebody ripping it up or adding
things, and now it was, "Good idea.
Here's two pieces of advice that
will help that idea be successful."
and I love that you had that champion
'cause I, and I'm circling back to
earlier in our conversation when you
were identifying who on the org chart
that you would talk to, and you said
you went high and low, and I think
that was smart for a number of reasons.
But in that process, and also with just
your personal approach and how you build
relationships with your stakeholders,
and you're constantly peppering in your
value and then reinforcing that with
proving more value later, you were able
to earn that trust and to get those
champions internally who are bringing
you into the conversation earlier.
And the sooner you can do that, it's just,
it's so good for your team, and I feel
like very, it's very common for product
marketing leaders and, and marketing
leaders of, of, um, of other functions
as well get stuck in the, like, um,
l- like order taker, you know, kind of
role, and then, and that's kind of how
you get into that, like, reactive state.
So I, I just ap- appreciating how you
were able to do that for your team
and, you know, kind of earning that
trust, you know, really early on.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I, I, I was really proud of the team and
I had… Even though, you know, the team
did grow, uh, early, we had some, some
internal people move over and so the team
did start to grow and the, it took them a
little bit, but once they kind of realized
what I was, what I was aiming for, I
just, we saw such a great change and we
were able to do a lot with a small team
I love it.
Okay.
I'm really appreciating this story.
Um, I wanna do a little bit of quasi
role playing here for a minute and
take your story, turn it into a
playbook, but we're gonna pretend that
you're the coach and I'm the player.
And let's say I'm, I'm in, like,
a new, you know, I'm in a new
role and, or a new company.
I'm, I'm tasked with establishing
the product marketing function,
the product marketing org.
What's, what's step one?
Where do I get started?
I always say, uh, one day I
wanna write a book about who you
should make friends with at work.
It's kinda, it, it, it's who…
There, there's certain groups
that really will make you be more
successful if you can actually make
friends and not just colleagues.
But like, it's-- So one of the things is,
yeah, like get allies on certain teams.
And there were some things that I
didn't even realize, like the web
team was a big one that I didn't
have a lot of experience with.
But like I, made allies on the web
team, and I was able to change a couple
processes that saved, um, that went
from a two-week delivery to a, two-hour
delivery sometimes because I, made this
connection with someone on the web team.
So, you know, someone on
the IT team for things.
So making those connections with the
right people can really, really help.
So I always say that that's
one thing that, you should do
Okay.
So starting with, and I'm, I'm now
I'm, I'm hearing again the like
the org chart comment and to like
assessing the org chart, figuring
out who I need to make friends with.
So once I do that, like what's next?
What's my next step?
You know why?
I had a high school teacher that
told-- I remember at the time thinking
it was silly, but it's like one
of my life m-mantras now, where t-
it's, uh, learn to play the game.
And he had always-- he'd said this so many
times, and it was like he really pushed it
into people and anybody from my hometown,
they know exactly what I'm talking about.
And the-- so learning to play the
game for me was, what do I need
to-- what's to increase the chance
of this project being successful?
So I, again, I'm a creative person.
I had a lot of ideas in the beginning,
and I had this long list of ideas,
and I kept them in a notebook.
And I think normally our thing
is, "Okay, we have an idea.
Let's polish it.
Let's put it out there.
Let's go, go, go, go, go." And so one
thing I will say with learning to play the
game was I knew I would have to have some
allies in certain things before I could
go all the way, and I needed to learn
how people like to receive information.
You know, some people are visual,
some people wanna, talk price first,
some people want every single bit of
detail, uh, you know, and some-sometimes
if you present this, it might scare
them, won't be able to focus on that.
So I needed to learn
more before I went in.
So I had this one idea that I really
thought was a really good idea,
my boss and I-- said it was a good
idea, and he kind of wanted to do it.
It was like, and I worked
with some members of my team.
We made a presentation, and then
I sat on it for three months.
And so for three months, we
sat on it while I, learned
more about the organization.
And I remember all the persons I
was working with was like, kind
of like, "Hey, that was fun.
Is, is anything happening with that?"
Like, like, you know, like, you know,
that thought, "Well, did I do this for
nothing?" And then I finally one day was
in, in a meeting and something came up
and I was like, "You know, I actually have
this idea, you know, related to this."
And the person was like, "Oh, that's
something we're trying to do." And
so they were like, "Yeah, I love it.
Let me help you.
Let's get this up out there." So I had
waited for the right time and got the
right ally, and we, you know, went to
the next meeting and I had that ally
and they're like, "Yeah, that's great."
Had another ally.
You know, so went to the next
meeting, had those allies.
So now, you know, when I finally going
to the senior team, it's like here are
these six people that all think this
is a great idea, all fully understand
what we're doing and have contributed.
Told me, you know, this should go here.
We shouldn't say this.
You know, how to do that.
And this idea that if I would've ran to
the top, you know, when I first came up
with it, which everyone agreed was a good
idea, would've, got slapped down because I
So smart.
So yeah.
So that's a big one
Okay, and, um, it piggybacks really
nicely on, you know, the first, the
kinda first step, which was, and, and I'm
totally simplifying this, but basically
to, like, look at the org chart and to
figure out who you need to meet with.
I know, I remember you made the, um,
the example as, you know, with the web
team, and now I'm seeing, like, a kind
of step deeper into that, and that's that
learn to play the game, but in doing so,
you're learning about all those people,
and how, and how you play with them.
I can think of countless examples of
my career, both when I've done it the,
the right way and the wrong way, where
I've gotten my allies, and I've gotten
everyone to agree, and then we go to the
senior leadership team and say, "Look,
product marketing, sales, and product
marketing, um, all agree this is what we
wanna do," and then all they have to do
is sign off on it and give us the budget.
I've done that, and have it, have it
work really nicely, and I've had it
the other happen, where I don't go to
those people, because I was young and
naive and didn't know what I was doing.
And I'd go straight to the senior leader,
and they'd be like, "Go ask sales.
Go ask product.
Go ask someone else.
Like, o- once you get their
sign-off, come back to me."
Yeah, for sure.
And I see that with a lot of younger
people and newer people where you're
so excited and they, they run into it.
Another part, another thing that I
would kind of add to that playbook,
it's, you know, when you are dealing
with senior people and presenting
something, be, talk-- think of it
like you're, you're talking to a
four-year-old for the first time.
it's not that we're saying the person's
dumb, it's executives are so busy and you
can present them something and then say,
"Come back in two weeks," they completely
forgot what you're talking about, and they
walk into that meeting having no idea.
They just know the meeting was on
their calendar, and they come in.
And I see so many people that their urge
is to be like, "Okay, so blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, this." And I, I recently
had that where I, I said to somebody
afterwards, I said, "Just start over.
Just next time you do this, just they have
no idea what you're talking about." 'Cause
someone said that to me 10 years ago.
And it was-- So I just said like, you
know, very go back, go back to the very
beginning every time, because they do
not know what you're talking about,
and then tie it into benefits, right?
Like, it's-- So those are kind of the
two bits of advice I, you know, I give to
people when they're presenting something.
Okay, so let's bring this back
to product marketing again.
I mean, we've been in the
product marketing world, but more
specifically about product marketing.
If I'm building out a new PMM org from
the ground up and I've, you know, I've
got my stakeholders and I've, I'm learning
how to play the game, what do I do next?
You know, I have all these
people and they're all telling
me all the things that they need.
I can very easily get, and my team
can very easily get super overwhelmed,
especially when I'm in a scenario
like you where I've got, you know,
90 PMs and it's only one, me as,
you know, the lead product marketer,
one other PMM, and then an intern.
Like, what do I do?
How do I deal with all of that scenario?
You know, obviously you wanna tie it
to pers- to, uh, you know, business
goals, you know, like, so whatever
the, the revenue is, that's a big one.
But another thing I, I did was I tied
it to other people's personal goals.
Like, I learned that some people had,
you know, that they wanted to make
the Canadian region, you know, uh,
really grow, or they, they had this
personal goal to get this one specific
product up a, a certain number.
And then so when I heard those things,
and these were things that weren't
necessarily as shared as, as they probably
should have been, but, you know, when
I heard that, you know, I would say,
"Okay, so there's 100 things that could
be done. Which ones can tie into those
and help that person?" 'Cause then
that also helps with the ally, right?
'Cause then that person's like, "Oh,
that's helping me." But again, that
it's so that it helps push it forward.
So I gotta tie it directly to goals, and
if every single thing you're working on,
no matter what button you're clicking,
you have to say, "What major goal is this
tying to?" And that's a big thing that I
really, really talk to my, my team about.
So, like, if we're moving an icon
from here to here, is it helping
the three business goals that
were talked about in the SKO?
Is it helping this VP's personal goal
that he shared with us last week?
So it's everything you do, you
gotta somehow tie it up into things.
It might take a little bit, but if
you could tie it up, then that's great
Yeah.
And what I really appreciate that
too, and this is something I've always
done for my team members, um, and I,
I haven't done it, which I think is
a really good idea, especially for
establishing allies with stakeholders,
is also tying it back to a stakeholder
or, or an ally's personal goal.
Um, but I've always done that for my team.
If they really wanted to grow in a
certain area, if that was very important
to their personal career growth, then
I would try to establish that as part
of our priority as a team, and I would
find a way to tie it back to the main
goal of the-- make sure that it, it, you
know, supports the goals of the business.
But in my opinion, if my team member
is strong, talented, I'm trying
to keep them, I obviously want to,
um, you know, grow their talent.
I want them to grow their talent with
me, so I'm gonna try to create those
opportunities for them to do that.
So I think that's really
good, leadership quality.
speaking on this, and I might be
jumping, jumping ahead a little bit,
but let's talk a little bit about teams.
how do you consider, like let's say
like you're-- I'm in my scenario where
I'm at the point where I've got my
s-stakeholders, I've got my allies, I'm,
I've got my prioritization in place.
How do I figure out what talent I
need to make it happen, and, um, what,
what has been your approach to that?
Yeah.
There, there's a few things, and
again, I, I wanna tie this back
into learning to play the game.
I had learned from somebody that also
reported to, to my boss that they had
often… You know, I, I, I brought
the ratio thing up a little bit.
So they were o- on the design team,
and they would always say, you know,
"There's-- You should almost have
this many designers for product
marketers," and that was kind of
their main argument for team growth.
And, and the more I learned about
my boss, I was like, I could see
why that wouldn't necessarily be
the something that would push him.
I was like, he likes detail.
He is gonna think, well, is that
enough work for that person?
So one of the, the first things I did
was I… You know, we were using a
bunch of different tools for tracking
projects, and I created a, a dashboard
that kind of consolidated everything,
and I could very easily pull up a
screen and say, "Look at this person.
These are the projects that
they're working on right now.
These are ones that they did recently,
and this is kind of an idea of
capacity." And, and you know, and
also wh- what that's contributing to.
Like, so I also could very quickly
say, "This is hopefully will
contribute to more leads or more
sales or, you know, clarity."
And so he loved that 'cause it was, it
was, again, I, I, I jumped that step of
him needing to explain what he wanted
to see, ' cause I played the game, I, I
listened, and I… So, so that was one
of the first things I did was let's show
team capacity and actually show what
the need is going to be and show like
there actually is a strong need for this.
And, and then second, the one thing
I struggled with was in product
marketing, and I, I still don't know
if I 100% know the answer to this,
but How you structure the team,
a lot of people do it by product.
I was really kinda stuck on the
idea by function or skill set.
I often, when I look at any marketing
team, I always look at it as sort
of like a SWAT team or a round table
where everybody has individual skill
sets, and then whatever project
comes in, we say, "Okay, that
person's the best one to do that."
You know, they're gonna lead
and everyone else is gonna help.
It's like, you know, when there's
a SWAT team, we need the heavy
demolition guy, and then everyone
else is gonna support them.
And then so that was something that
even though I did end up deciding to
keep it by product, you know, I wanted
to organize the team by product,
I still kept that concept when I
was making pitches for other teams.
So I had somebody that, that I
wanted to add to the team, and
I knew that there was a gap.
And so I said, "You know, this person
has incredibly strong research skills.
Not only is that something that's not
one of our strengths right now, it's not
a strength on the greater product team.
You know, so like it's something
that wouldn't just benefit us,
it could benefit everybody.
Like you don't have that person that
you could say, 'Go research these things
and present me the findings.'" Like
w- they, at the time, they were going
outside to other teams for that, and
I was like, "Wouldn't that be great
to have that here?" So it was that
mix of skill set and then mix of that,
that product need that really helped.
And when I ended up going by product,
I also said, "We're gonna be freeing
up time for people." So again, if
this is what they're doing now, if I
could just have more on product, then
they're gonna be doing this for the
product and saying, "We're not…"
You know, there wasn't enough win-loss
going on, the competitive intel needed
to be validated and added to every
product release, you know, by persona.
You know, those are things
like, you know, again, it gives
specific things of how we do it.
So you have to make that,
that business case for it.
You have to make sure, you know,
'cause people rightly so, uh, you
know, it's, it's good to protect
headcount and, you know, a lot of times
sometimes people are like, "Oh, darn."
But like, you know, you should.
You should protect headcount.
You should think about it 'cause
you don't wanna get in a situation
where you hire someone, and then you
realize that there isn't a full role
for them, and then you have to have,
you know, some uncomfortable thoughts.
So I'm, I take it very, very
seriously, you know, when I, when
I'm gonna hire someone and I know
exactly what they'd be doing.
I almost wanna be able to say
that it's present more work
than would be for someone.
You know, that in my head that
it's, you know, that there's 130%
Yes.
know, that, that really is for them to do.
that's a really smart way to look at
it and very thoughtful in terms of,
um, securing or helping to secure
anyway to the best of your ability
that person's future with the company.
Um, so when you're hiring, help me
understand your approach to whether you
lean heavy into core product marketing
skills versus like industry expertise.
Like what matters for you when you're
looking at the needs on a team and I
guess just like more broadly, what advice
would you give to me if I were hiring?
Um, what should I lean into?
A lot of people, the, they really
do lean to that industry experience,
especially with product marketing.
And I've had people say like, "How could
you even?" Like, "How could you possibly
go into another career if you don't know
it?" Uh, and I will say that if you lean
very, very heavily on industry experience,
you're sort of taking the easy way.
And it's, it's not wrong, but
it is the, the super easy path.
Yes, the person might come and they
have that knowledge, but it's much,
much harder to teach creativity.
You know, it's much, much harder to
teach strong presentation skills.
You know, with product marketing,
these are people that are
gonna be presenting to the CEO
and, you know,
or like at conferences and to analysts.
Like they are evangelists for the
product, but in a way for the company
Yeah.
And, and that's a lot harder to teach.
I- if somebody, you know, doesn't have
those speaking skills, but they know
everything about the product, I almost
would rather the other way around.
Like, you know, say they could explain,
you know, how bacon is made incredibly
well, but then we're selling SaaS.
I was like, "I think it'd be easier for
me to teach you to talk about SaaS, you
know, than it would've been if you knew
everything about it, but you didn't really
have that good storytelling skills."
So I do really think a strong, the
experience with product marketing and
really those strong intangible skills.
You know, like it's, you've gotta…
Product marketing is an interesting role.
We're not hidden, you know?
We're, we're not back of the
house marketing, you know?
We're, we're talking, we're
presenting, we're arguing.
We're, you know, we're, we need
people to believe our way and, and we,
for things to be successful, people
have to want to use what we create.
So there, I really ap- appreciate
those tangible skills, you know,
ability to argue for yourself and
ability to, and also the ability
to know when you lost, you know?
That, that's another thing.
So I, I think those are,
are really important.
So yeah, if I would really push
people to say, if you're hiring, don't
get caught up on industry skills.
I know that's what we wanna do,
but it, it's the safe choice.
You know, if somebody has two years of
industry experience and there's another
person that has five years of product
marketing experience, but nothing, you
know, ask some more questions, like
lean into that and see what they can do.
They're, they got to that point.
They're, you know, you think
they're a smart person, they
will figure out your industry.
That's what we do, you know?
That's just the way our brains are wired
Yeah.
I, I tend to do the same thing, and I,
I tend to focus more on product, core
product marketing skill set, and then
try … And this is where I struggle.
I don't, I don't have a good way to test
for this, but, I try to find someone with
high, like, technical aptitude, right?
For some- sometimes those industries
that are very deeply technical.
so you need someone who has the ability
to pick that up kind of quickly so that
they can have an intelligent conversation
with a very technical customer.
Um, so as they're doing that research,
they, they know what the … They can,
you know, keep up with the conversation.
So that's what
And that's,
but it's hard.
It's hard, it's hard to test
for that and measure for that
it's hard, but you also have to ask
yourself, do they have a background
that could easily translate
That
that?
You know?
So like if they, you know, their
audience was very heavily finance, you
know, then they're going into IT, you
know, there is a really heavy finance,
uh, you know, experience with IT.
So like you might think, well, they
don't under- you know, they're not
used to talking to IT directors, but
CFOs are almost always involved in
IT purchases, and a lot of times what
they're thinking about is the same.
They are thinking about
those high-level problems.
So it always helps to,
to learn to, to do that.
But like I said, you know, as a
product marketing manager, we love
to get to the bottom of things.
We love to figure it out.
Just like I said, I, you know, when I
meet someone, I learn how they like to, to
take in data and how they like to present.
I can do the same thing
with another industry.
You know?
It's, you know, I, I
have done it in my past.
I went, I worked for, uh, as a solo
product marketer for a company that
sold to art galleries, and I had
been in tech my, my whole career,
and it was the weirdest thing.
But, you know, 'cause it was-- And I,
I often say like, I would love someone
to show me a more difficult audience
than, than the art gallery world.
I, I do not think it exists.
It was, uh, it was a challenging
group of people, but I did the
same approach I would for… as
a product marketer on a product.
I, you know, I got in, I
learned about these people.
I saw how they liked to present,
and one of the very first things I
realized was the company was doing
these super long demos to them, and
I could see that it pained them.
So I, one of the first things I
did was I said, "Let's change this
hour-long demo to 15 minutes."
Like it's just, like these are
not in their chair people, right?
These are not, these are people that
are sitting around, like even when
you would get on with them, you could
tell they weren't somewhere where
they normally were and like it was,
these are bouncing around folks.
And so like, let's go by that and
let's also, they want to consume
information on their own time, so
let's make it easier for, to do that.
So, you know, I learned that about
them, and then I made those changes,
and I did that for pretty quickly.
So good.
So helpful to have.
Um, uh, I'm gonna summarize what I think
I've heard as, like, kind of the biggest
takeaways from this case study segment.
So first, first to… And you tell me
if I'm missing anything, by the way.
Um, so there's first to kind of look
through the, the org chart and to,
you know, establish your allies.
And for me, I think the way that I
interpret that is to, like, build a
stakeholder map basically, and then
from there learn to play the game, and
I think that's a- going deeper into
my stakeholder map and adding in some
context around each of the players.
Um, and then prioritizing and trying
to map the business needs and the gaps
to the, um, obviously the business
goals as well as individual goals.
Go, again, go back to that stakeholder
map, see if there are any goals there
that I can try to align to, to try
to reinforce those ally- allyship?
Is that a word?
Like reinforce those allies.
you didn't, you didn't outright say this,
but I said it, and I, I noticed that you
do this, and this is something that I
would, that I will, I'm actually gonna
steal from you, is to sprinkle in the
value throughout as you're kind of going
back and working with those stakeholders.
what'd I miss?
No, I mean, that, that's exactly it.
I would say, yeah, it's make friends,
learn the rules, you know, uh, a-
aim towards what other people are
aiming, and, and be confident.
You know, you're there for a reason.
You got hired for a reason, you know,
and y- you know what you're doing.
You know, be confident and show people
that you're confident, and it's,
you know, that's the easiest way
I would, I would kinda break it up
All right, so now it's time for our
next segment, the messaging critique.
This is the part where, as product
marketing experts, we get to
analyze real-world messaging.
And Matt, as my guest, you get to
pick the company that we critique.
Some quick ground rules, where, um, you're
gonna tell me, you're gonna reveal who
the company is, and then you're gonna
tell me what the company's doing really
well, what the PMMs there, if they have
PMMs, um, what they're doing really well
in terms of their messaging, something you
wish the PMM would've done differently,
and then we'll just do a quick brainstorm
on how we'd take it to the next level if
we were their product marketing coaches.
so let's get started.
Yeah, reveal who the company is that
we're gonna talk through t- uh, talk
Yeah.
Uh, I would say REI Co-op.
So they are an online retailer.
They might have physical stores, but
No, they do.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I, I know
them as more of their… Oh, nice.
Nice.
And, you know, they sell your, your
outdoor, your outdoor fun stuff, you know,
like canoes, kayaks, skis, kinda outdoor
Camping gear, rock
climbing gear, biking gear.
They've got everything.
Yeah, we go to that store.
We've spent a lot of time at that store.
Okay, so tell me more about their
messaging, maybe a little bit
about their target audience, kinda
like what are your observations?
Yeah.
So I would describe myself as I'm
a bit of a, an ADHD hobby hopper.
And the one way I, I stop myself from
spending too much money on it is I
research the bejesus out of something.
So I have in my head where I wanna
start being a kayaker, or I wanna
be a dr- a drone pilot or, you
know, I, I'm one of those people.
You know, normally people go out and
they buy it, and they spend all the
money, and then they, they put aside.
I just learn everything there
is to know about it and then
kind of move on to the next one.
So, uh, that's how I can kinda get away
without spending, uh, you know, all
my money on something that I'll, I'll
Yeah, expensive gear.
Yeah.
And so I had once had in my head
where I'm, I'm gonna be… You know, I
haven't quite given up on this one yet.
I still do this somewhat and I am gonna
dive back into this at some point.
But, um, canoeing and kayaking.
It was always something I
liked as a kid, and my kids
are really getting into it now.
And so, like, I had in my head I wanna
buy, uh… You know, I wanted to get
an inflatable kayak or even, uh, you
know, and I was like, "Well, I wanna
learn." So just went online and I was
like, "What's the, you know, what's
the difference between a inflatable
kayak and a hard shell one, and what
can I use, you know, for fishing?"
And you know, what I wanted to do.
And I came to this really cool article,
and it was really well-written, and it,
it really was very clear, and it broke
down exactly, you know, what, why this is
important and this, and it so- and it was
so good, and then I read the whole article
and I was like, "Oh, that was great."
And I looked up and I was on
rei.com, and I didn't even know.
They had just written the, these
articles as, you know, just these
informal things, and that's how
all blogs should be written.
They , you know, they, they should
be written with this people are
coming for an informative thing.
"Oh, you also sell that?
That's cool." It shouldn't be, " Oh, you
want this? Well, buy it from me right
this second." And then that's what a lot
of people do, and a lot of, um, people
just wanna, wanna sell, sell, sell.
But when you fight that urge to sell,
sell, sell, you, you get an ally, and
you get somebody in, you get someone
that immediately has trust in you.
So I immediately had trust that REI
knew what they were talking about,
So when you learn to play the game,
part of that is, was like including
your customers in that too, and what
are their goals and what are their
motivations, and how can you help meet
their goals, not just shove your to-dos
in their face like, "Buy my product."
Yeah, for sure
I love that, and I know exactly
the type of blogs and content that
you're speaking about with REI.
They're extremely informative,
and you, yeah, you don't
realize even that you're reading
I had no idea
Yeah, so bring it back to like, you know,
the PMM kind of like messaging takeaways.
Like what's something that, you know,
you wished the, the, something the PMM
did really well, and then something you
wish they would've done differently?
The very well was they, they
got the blogging strategy right.
They presented themselves as experts
and they used expert information
and they knew when not to sell.
And, and so they, they did that perfectly.
And learning when not to sell is almost
as important as learning how to sell.
And so I thought that was great.
One thing is, I don't even know if
they, if they know what they have.
And this is where I, I would say is
when I talk about myself as a hobby
hopper, I think they think of, you
know, if I go to the website and
I'm looking at a kayak, you know, I
imagine a lot of the retargeting ads
and things will be, "Okay, here's a
kayak, here's a kayak, here's a kayak."
I'm a hobby hopper.
Show me a bike, show me skis,
show me other things, and I bet
you a lot of other people are.
Well, yeah, and I don't know if
they do that and I, and like I
said, I don't really think they do.
I think they kind of think when someone's
there, that's kind of their thing.
But you know, this is
what hobby hoppers do.
You know, they, they wanna learn
about everything and might be like,
"Oh yeah, I did used to like riding
a bike. Show me the, that bike. Ooh,
it's, it's 50% off." Like, you know?
Yeah.
And so that's one thing I would, I
would suggest to them is don't just…
Someone's there for a kayak, they
probably like lots of other stuff
Yeah.
So I'm also, this is like, uh, I love this
takeaway for product marketers t- because
it's like study your target audience
a little, a little closer in terms of
like adjacent offerings and adjacent
products that they may be interested in.
And I, I wonder if we would see a
trend in many different industries
where, like, you start in one product
and eventually you make your way into
buying additional products because
you get experience with one and you're
like, "Well, that worked really well.
I wanna do this more.
What else is there?
Well, what else is there?
Well, what else is there?" I love that.
Super interesting.
Uh, anything else to say about
the REI, um, or REI marketing?
I just want more people to blog like that.
I
all I I, I-- That's always my example
It's a good
I'm talking to people about blogging.
It's just, can we please, uh, you know.
And I, I unders- It's, it's not
done i-in malice, the thought.
It's just people just they wanna, they
want us-- They worked so hard on the
product, and they know people worked
hard on it, and they want us to put it
out there, and they wanna talk about it.
But it's, if you did it
right, they will come.
So
it's take a breath
100%, I get it.
Well, shout out REI and your
PMMs if you have any, or if
just your standard marketers.
You guys are doing a great job with your
messaging and your storytelling and,
and your blogging, so we will definitely
be stealing some of your tactics.
All right.
So Matt, one thing that I try to
make space for on this podcast is a
moment of tr- gratitude, because in
product marketing, none of us get to
where we are with, um, by ourselves.
We're always learning and growing from
each other, and we're better for it.
so before we wrap up, I just want to
say a genuine thank you for making time
to be here and sharing your expertise
and your, um, and your insights.
I really appreciate it
Well, thank you so much.
This was wonderful.
I, I would talk to you anytime
Yeah.
Aw, thank you so much.
Um, and then I'd love to turn it
around on you and give you a chance
to give a shout-out to one or two
PMMs who have made a real impact
on how you think and, um, made an
impact on how you are as a PMM today
Yeah.
You know, they're actually not a, a PMM.
They, they're someone that they've made
their career now in operations consulting,
and their name is Katie Barnes.
And I only worked with her for a
few months, but I still, almost
every meeting I'm in, every task I'm
doing, every thing I'm working on,
I, I have that thought of, "Oh, like
Katie would've done it this way," or,
"What would Katie think about it?"
Or, "How would she tell me to do that?"
And I just… She was just such a
confident person and, and that really
taught me a lot about confidence.
And she saw people doing a bad
job at consulting, at operations
consulting, and getting away with it.
And so she said, "Well, I think I could
do a good job, so I'm gonna do it."
So she left her full-time job, went
out, became a full-time consultant,
and she's doing great, and it's
exactly where she should be.
And she, she pushed, and every time I
wanna kinda give up on something and
say, "Well, it's not gonna work," I
think, you know, Katie created this
audience in such a short time, and she's
established this great career for her
where she's able to do what she wants,
and I just, I always keep that in my mind.
So Katie Barnes
I love it.
Yes.
And now she's able to take the impact
that she's had on you and impact
probably hundreds of other people too.
thank you so much, Matt.
And hey, PMM listeners, if you liked
this episode, please share it with a
PMM friend, and I would be so grateful
if you would leave us a review.
It helps tremendously with our reach.
Thank you so much for coming
with us on this adventure today.
I hope this episode leaves you
with inspiration to take in the
next step of your own journey