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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hey, it's Misha. Welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we're talking with Jack C. Newell, who's a writer, director, producer, actor, and public artist. He's co-creator of Destroy Your Art, the co-creator of the Public Art Project.
the Wabash Lights and created the Second City Film School at the Second City. His films have screened theatrically and premiered at various film festivals and on all major streaming platforms including Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon. Recently completed films include How Not to Build a School in Haiti, Monuments, which won the Nashville Audience Award, and Bettendorf Talks, which premiered at South by South.
West. In the episode we chat about what it's like to build a filmmaking life that doesn't necessarily follow a straight path. We get into how scarcity shaped his career in Chicago and why he never went niche as well as what it takes to stay curious when the industry keeps shifting. So yeah, it's a lovely chat. You can learn more about Jack at www.jacksenewall.com as well as follow him on Instagram at Jack Seenewall and check out at Zach Seafilm to learn more about him. I'll have all that in the show notes. So without any delay.
Here is a very fun, very lovely conversation with Jack and myself. Hope you enjoy.
Jack C Newell (01:52.814)
We've got a number of projects that are really engaging, that I'm really interested in. And I've been really fortunate that I've been able to do documentary and fiction work. And I've also been very fortunate that I can do multiple genres and also can sit in a couple of different seats so I can direct, I can write, I can produce. And so that keeps it sort of varied and interesting. And I enjoy that.
taking a at of your credits, whether it's, know, was it Bettendorf talks and then monuments and the candidate is a documentary or like a fair amount of different genres. Like for you, what's made it, like what's made it sort of a creative decision to have that degree of variety? Like how have you been able to have that kind of breadth of approach?
best advice I never took was to go niche early and hard. And I just like, couldn't, it just ran counter to my, like what I was even wanting. Why was I even going into this? Yeah. I think one of the things that's the joy of being in the arts, but I would say film specifically journalism might get into this. Theater might get into this. mean, I guess I knew the arts would, but it's just like, you get to explore a lot of different things. And so, um, and I really enjoyed that. Um, I mean, you can do that in other.
work as well. But I think one of things that's uniquely great about the arts is you can sort of explore a bunch of different ways. And I think for me, I like the creative process, but also like collaboration. And so finding different ways you can collaborate with people is always sort of what makes it interesting and worthwhile.
And like, was that more of a creative decision early on or was it more like an organic development of curiosity?
Jack C Newell (03:27.086)
Probably actually scarcity being in Chicago is probably the actual answer. mean, whenever you ask a question like that, think the way to answer it is I always think like people always want to connect the dots going forward, but you can only ever connect the dots going backwards. And so to suggest now like 10, 15 years in that I had some sort of like strategic of like, I'm going to do this and that. mean, that's what, that's what people are always trying to do. I think.
You know, if I do this, then this is going lead to this and that, and then I'm going to get to my goal. And I think that that just does not exist. There's a great, just a nerd out for like a real quick second. There's a great Kurosawa quote that I saw the other day where he's like, you know, younger Akira Kurosawa, younger mountaineers, like they always look at the top of the mountain to where they're going and they don't pay attention to like the steps in front of them or to the vista of what they're at. And then you get discouraged because like the top, just is elusive for so long. And so I think about that.
quite a bit. But you're to answer in a little bit more concrete terms, I think in going back to the scarcity thing, like I graduated, I went to film school here at Columbia College, I graduated and immediately was like, where's my million dollar movie deal that did not happen. And then I was like, okay, and that took a while. I mean, that's hard. And I talked to a lot of folks who just come out of film school or come out of film programs and like, or even just any art school. And it is just like that, that period of time immediately afterwards is pretty, it's tough. mean, art school is great for lot of reasons. And then there's things that, you know, it
And it's like, it's very difficult to prepare someone for that. And so that's fine. But I think then I started just getting into physical production, like second ADing, because it's like as a director, you're essentially useless on a film set, unless you're directing. And even then you're potentially useless. But then I just sort of going from there and just being like, okay, how do I, how do I find a way to work in this, in this industry in any way? And then getting to the spot of really knowing, okay, this is what I actually want to do. And
and what I'm good at, although I'm what I'm good at is actually less important sometimes than what you want to do. would say.
Mishu Hilmy (05:23.96)
Right. Yeah. Cause that's like what you're good at is kind of like you're, you're judging as an outsider versus like, think even to a degree, like that's not your responsibility rather than it's like, just do practice, practice the craft rather than like judging the craft. yeah, I think that's a really interesting kind of position around like scarcity. Maybe it creates a sort of degree of like, like this is the.
the opportunity or lack of opportunities accessible. So I might as well just like do things that are analogous and then find your own sort of natural curiosity or trajectory of like opportunities typically beget other opportunities. is it just more like just following like I'm fresh out of school and no one's looking for me. one necessarily wants me. So I'm just going to do like the next thing I can.
I think so. think it's being open to opportunities and seeing what's going to happen and all that. Yeah, for sure.
Currently, like teaching is I think I used to do courses, the Acting Studio of Chicago. So that's more acting side, but are you also involved with different institutions at maybe the university level?
I used to be not so much. I'll jump in at DePaul every now and then like when I can. My schedule has not been really conducive to teaching. So I taught at Columbia College for many years and then I started the film school at Second City and ran that for a number of years. And then have, like I said, taught at DePaul and kind of sneak in when I can, but it's like, it's just hard sometimes. Film, your schedule is so crazy. And so it's sort of hard to commit to something when you're like, yeah, I might be, I mean, it's crazy. It's like, I might be gone for four months or doing absolutely nothing. Like it's like.
Jack C Newell (06:50.55)
So that's hard to plan around.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was talking to my partner about that literally yesterday of the sort of the inconsistency and the volatility. So given sort of the, maybe the years of experience, like how have you either like personally dealt with it or created sort of strategies or routines to maybe alleviate that volatility or that uncertainty? Because yeah, one year you might have a feast of projects and every other month you might be working and then you might go sort of six, nine months or even longer of silence. Like how have you sort of braced for that?
that kind of schedule issue.
years ago I directed two features back to back like literally back to back like we wrapped I had one day off and went into hard trap on another one and I was like everyone's like my god that's amazing and then when I was happening I was like I'm not gonna work for two years after this like not because I'm gonna be so tired it's gonna be like the the numbers game of it just worked out in a way where it's like that just sort of happened I think that the challenge I think what I do is and it's weird because my wife is a little bit more in a nine to five situation so I think that
Which is great. She's still in the film industry, but she's still a little bit more nine to five E ish. But it's nice cause she gets it. She's not like an accountant. she's like, what the hell, are you doing this? It's just like, she's, but it's like, I'll have random days or weeks where you just like not on set or you're not working on in a situation where you need to be present every day in that way. And so it's like, if you have that random Tuesday where you don't have anything to do, it's just like, that's your day off. Like just try to find a way to enjoy that. Yeah. You know, it's like,
Jack C Newell (08:17.856)
it's, is it weird to be playing, you know, video games or whatever on the couch at 10 AM as a grown person? And it's like, yes, but also like, you also worked for a stretch of time there where you didn't have any time. I think part of it's like knowing when to go and knowing when to rest. And that's really important. know, Robert Altman has a great quote where he, someone was like, what do you give advice? And this is about filming, but I think it's true writ large is like,
What do you have? What advice do you have for filmmakers, know, directors and thinking that he was going to say something like, Oh, this is how you have to frame a shot. This is how you work with actors. And basically his advice was like, take naps when you can. Yeah. Which is great. Um, especially on a feature. and I do that. It was like at lunch, it's like, I'm, I'm taking a nap right now. Cause when I come back, so I think it's like extrapolate that out. So it's like, be grateful when you have the opportunities and make the most of them when you can. then when you have downtime, which are going to have a lot of like fine ways to rest. That's also part of the.
to the earlier thing we're talking about, or I was talking about with documentary, it's like, I always have a project that's going on. I'm also writing. So it's, if I'm not shooting something, then I'm going to switch over to writing. And if I'm not writing or shooting something, then, you know, I'll be working on a documentary. So I think trying to find different ways to kind of stay engaged with the art form is my strength.
I think it's underestimated or maybe easily forgotten like how physically intensive production is like productions like you're in a physical space you're moving gear you're standing or sitting hours on end so it's like a physical challenge and then the it's also an intellectual challenge during production as well as pre-production and post-production. So you found it like fairly maybe a successful routine I think the Duplass brothers talk about kind of affair projects like yes have something that you're you know focused on but also have little
Mishu Hilmy (10:00.702)
Maybe I'll email my subject and go, Hey, next weekend, can I do some B roll with you for a couple hours for the stock or, how's that been going?
for sure. think that's that's definitely the way to do it or do a short or do like I did a web series like last month and I was like just sort of for fun with like a small crew and you know that'd been something we've been sort of bouncing around for a while and then we finally did it. So I think that's I think it's look but you also don't have to always be shooting to be like a filmmaker like you can. It's I like to I like to do stuff and so that doesn't necessarily mean that's the answer. I think that's just like that's what works for me. Yeah I do think.
If you want to be a filmmaker, you need to be engaging with film, whether that's writing. mean, even watching or talking about it or thinking about it. I do think, but I also think, I think one of the problems in film is you just got a lot of people who are sort of one dimensional in film. Like all they know is film. Right. So I think for me earlier on, like just engaging with the other art forms because they'll just inform your own process more, you know.
You then just become almost like a meta exercise where if your well is only filled up with the thing you're trying to make, then you're writing about movies and your movies become movies about making movies, which has its audience and has its place. But I don't think it allows you to maybe expand or grow that much by way of like offering a varied perspective or maybe a fresher perspective on life other than like showbiz is hard. Let's make a script about how hard showbiz is.
about every movie about moviemaking is about I think.
Mishu Hilmy (11:28.876)
Yeah. And then like when it comes to, I guess I'm thinking maybe documentary wise.
How? How do you?
go about finding a subject. And this might be more of a projection for me. Like I sometimes feel very uncomfortable with, you know, approaching people. like, Hey, I want to, think you're interesting or I want to, your world is interesting. Can I be a fly on the wall or whatnot? So like how have you navigated that?
That's a good question. So I've made three feature like documentaries, a couple shorter ones. 42 grams is about a chef. The Haiti documentary was about building a school in Haiti. So it's how not to build a school in Haiti. And then the candidate is a documentary about a guy running for house political office. I like to think about documentary in a slightly different way. think with documentary, you either have either a topic or like a social justice thing or a wrong in the world or a subculture or an event.
There's probably other things that would go into that that you're interested in and you want to explore and you need a character to do it. Or you just meet someone who's really interesting or a scenario that's fascinating. And then you sort of go from there. I think that in the ways that I've always seen, those are sort of the two I might, and I might be missing. We might not be comprehensive. Someone listening can, can write in and tell me how wrong I am, but that's how I always seen it. So like with the Haiti documentary, it started as, you know, when the earthquake hit.
Jack C Newell (12:48.522)
in 2010 in Port-au-Prince, was like, this is fascinating. There's an idea here that's really interesting, but it wasn't until like the guy from Colorado, the American was like, I'm going to build a school. And I was like, then I have a character. It's someone I can follow because you need a character. Yeah. 42 grams, the chef one that actually started because I'd started the Haiti doc and didn't know what I was doing. Like I, my first trip down to Haiti, destroyed the camera I went with and I was completely in over my head.
And I didn't even understand. went to school for fiction filmmaking, but didn't understand how you shoot a documentary. then like no idea like that, but basically it's the same. You need wides, need closeups, you need coverage, you need all these things. So just didn't make sense now, but back then I didn't. So I basically started the chef movie because I was like, that can just, it's highly repetitive. I'm interested in this world. I'd made open tables. So I understand the food world and would I want to get into it more and then sort of went from there and the candidate, like I went to this high school with Cosm and I was always interested in politics. So I guess I'm not answering your question. How do you ask someone?
I think that, mean, but I guess to go back to what I'm saying, it's like, you might find someone to be like, that you're interested in. think you could just go to them and be like, I would love to make a documentary about this, about you and see what they say. And then if it's, if you're coming at it for more like, I really want to make a movie about how XYZ is wrong in the world. Then it's about finding a person. Usually the character you're finding agrees with you or is exemplifying why XYZ is wrong in the world. And so they're probably inclined. And if they say no, that's fine. Then you just find someone else who
we'll say yes, you know? But I think part of this is a nature of like, you just need to put yourself out there in a way and know that like, I've got something that I wanna say, even if you don't even really know what you wanna say. Like I started with the Haiti doc, not really knowing what I wanted to say and then had a long time in making the film to figure out what that was.
I think it's interesting though, because it's cultivating maybe an action mindset because it's like, you're aware of things that you're generally interested in or curious about, or that you have relationships with. Like I went to high school with someone who, or college with someone who is running for office. Maybe I'll reach out to them.
Jack C Newell (14:42.126)
them. But it's also highly iterative. to interrupt, going to your early question, and this is maybe just me and I don't know if I've talked to other people and they say different, but it's just, highly iterative. So the political one was like, I'm just interested in politics. I've read a lot of books about politics. I think it's interesting. I wanted to make a documentary about the Iowa caucus process.
Bernie and Hillary had like their fracas in 2016, I think it was. I'm not remembering if it was 2018 or 2020. I'm not remembering exactly, but they changed the caucus system. But before then I was like, I think it'd be great to have a documentary where the film is embedded with the people. Cause the caucus is about people, neighbors talking to neighbors saying here's why I think you should vote for Elizabeth Warren. Here's why I think you should vote for Bernie Sanders. It's just like, there's no professionals. It's just people. And I was like,
That's a great movie. I'd watch that kind of movie. So I started trying to explore that. Could I do that? And it just dead end after dead end after it. And like, no, they're like, you can sit in the press pool area. was like, well, that's completely not the idea. And I even met with like some democratic groups, Democrats in Iowa, just trying to figure out how to do it. I just was like, I can't, I can't circle and square on this. And then my friend was like, I'm running for Congress. And I was like, Hmm. And I pitched him basically a terrible deal, which was I need to have total control.
You need to let me into every single meeting. You need, you can never censor me. I need to be allowed to like the most intimate things and cause he was probably going to lose the first time. I was like, if you, when you lose, like you need to not shut the door on me. And I had a call with him and his campaign manager and his campaign manager was like, okay. And so how much is this going to cost us? And I was like, no, no, no. Like I can't take any your money.
If you pay me, then I'm making a commercial for you and I don't want to do that. I'm making a documentary." And he said, okay, it's fine. And so I hung up and looked over to Rebecca and I was like, well, guess I'm, I can't, I have to do this movie now, you know, cause they said yes. But it's high. It's so it's been highly iterative. So there's never a moment where I was like, here's the plan. So this is going back to your earlier question was like, there's no plan. And I think, so yes, it is a bit like a curiosity mindset and sort of where is it exploring and where is it leading you to sort of end up where you are then. And then you can look back and be like, okay, that's how these sort of
Mishu Hilmy (16:51.374)
Right. Right. I still think it's like you're cultivating a comfort with a partial, a partialness. It's like, I'm interested in something or I know someone who's doing something interested. What's the first step? Maybe I'll shoot them a text or an email. Hey, I got this kind of idea. So I think the, the threshold you're crossing is like a willingness to act upon a general impulse or a general idea. So do you find that like, I imagine it's probably.
practice makes it easier, but what has helped you over time go from just having an idea and then it could easily just sit in a notebook or sit in your brain and you judge the shit out of it to go like, you know, instead of judging it, I'm just going to email my buddy or I'm going to text someone or I'm going to walk around town and see if I bump into anyone who is in the subculture. Like what, what's been working for you to help cross that threshold into action.
That's interesting. It's like part of what I want to answer that with when the way in which you phrase it is I would actually say the more I've made, the less likely I'd be willing to just go for it, which is sort of interesting. And maybe that's not exactly true, but it's definitely like Haiti started in 2011. That documentary we released it in 2022. took 10 years essentially to make six years of shoot five, four years to edit. There was absolutely it's like, if I had known what this was going to take in 2011, I would not have made it.
And so then, and you say that and that's like a thing you say, know, and it's like movies are hard and sometimes you'll be on set and you'll be like, why did I say yes this? So I do think that sort of factors in, in some ways that can manifest as like when you've done enough stuff, you sort of see something. So it's like projects will come my way and I'll be like, man, I could make that. And I really, I could say yes and I could do it. And it's like, I don't think I got it in me to do that. And so you say no, because you're like, this is not, know, Haiti was going to be a one year, maybe two year movie. And it was like, you know, 10 years.
But I do think that, and sometimes being like action oriented, meaning like, I'm just going to just start something. Again, that's how I started Haiti and some of other ones. So maybe early on, like you just need to jump in and sort of don't know what you don't know. But you're asking me at a curious time, because I feel like that probably, that probably doesn't work as many times as it works, which is maybe okay. Cause then at the end of the day, like you do have something, you just need to be pretty.
Mishu Hilmy (18:59.63)
Mmm.
immune or have coping mechanisms to handle the crushing defeats along the way.
Yeah, I just think I've been thinking a lot about it lately and it's like maybe over time as you accumulate more experience and do more projects. And I think the director's job ultimately is like point of view and discernment. So it's like, well, what do you want to discern? But I think the challenge is like, do I trust my ability to discern the things that I am genuinely wanting to do rather than like, am I avoiding it out of fear of exhaustion or fear of it being too hard? And I think that's where the challenge is that maybe as you build a body of work of like,
Is this me avoiding or me going like, okay, yeah, maybe, maybe I can actually move, move forward on this.
There's exceptions to the rule for sure. For me specifically, think like early on, no one knows what they're doing or what your voice is or any of that stuff. it's like part of the, you just are sort of going out there you're seeing what's up. And I think absolutely there's a moment where, you know, a project will come my way. The thing that's hard about film is film is just not, it's not like a pure art form in some ways. It just, there's, it's, and I don't necessarily mean that in a derogatory sense, but it's like, it's not a single artist. It's, it's always multiple.
Jack C Newell (20:13.358)
artists that are involved in this and like a lot. And it's not just like, you need someone to help you out. It's like there are people who are key critical positions. So there's that element. And then there's it's resource intensive. Like it's very, it's just, it's you need money. Even if you're making a simple, small movie, like you still need resources. And so it's just, there's so many elements in the film and television space that have to sort of align that there's a lot of reasons why you would want to say yes to a project or why you'd say no to a project.
are a lot of reasons why projects happen and don't happen. mean, there's a lot of movies that should not be made that are made. I mean, happens all the time. You can look at the streaming and be like, why is this movie made? You know, and there's a lot of great movies that, you know, didn't get made that absolutely,
Totally. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it because it's beyond it just being a collaborative art form. It's one that takes time and space versus if you want to paint, you can get a canvas and paint in your basement. If you want to write, you can write a novel alone on an airplane versus something where it's like we are capturing raw frames and then handing that off to someone else to put them together and assemble some sort of experience or narrative. There's just a lot of moving parts and then because of that complexity.
Yeah, I agree with some of it's not necessarily like a pure art form in that it's like singular. It's not a singular thing, even though people line up with auteur theory. I don't think I buy auteur theory so much.
as a marketing technique. I think it's great to sell DVDs or whatever, Blu-rays to sell, know, but yeah, I would agree. You know, it's also, a friend was like, if you want to get good at surfing, it's like, you just need to surf. But, but you need, you need to be able to like paddle out, catch the wave. How many waves are you actually going to catch that are even any good? And it's like, before you even get to a spot where you're saying that's why I learning to surf just to take so long. You just, you need a certain number of like shots on goal. And yeah, someone can go out there on a surfboard, catch a great wave.
Jack C Newell (22:02.894)
stand up the first time they get out there because just all of the things combined and like film-making is like that too. Like to have a film actually happen, like you have an actual shot at making something. Like there's so many things that need to kind of come together. And the thing with all of that is that so much of that lives outside of just like, what is the actual job of film-making? And like, or executing the craft. And those are like sort of, it's just very difficult to, it's to just, to divorce the two, but also to know like,
It's also hard to know like where are you at in the pro, what's not working? Is it you? Is it just timing? Is it, you know, what's what exactly is going on? I made a film and without getting into the specifics, but I'd made a number of films with like a certain team and got to the spot. It was early on when I was just kind of starting out I was like, where am I in this? Where's my voice? Like am I, and I didn't know. I mean, I wasn't sure. I was like, I think, I think I know what it is. I think I have an idea, but because I'm sort of working with this group, I think it's.
I don't want be like they're holding me back because that wasn't it, but it was like, I don't, need personally for me to focus on me doing my thing. Yeah. Meaning like writing, directing, and just sort of like doing the whole thing because I think I have an idea of what I'm trying to get at or what I'm trying to say or how I want to make films. Again, they're not holding me back, but I feel like, and maybe it's like I'm being not defined by anyone, but it's like, I'm personally, I need to know where I start and stop, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And so the only way to do that was to sort of head out, I guess on my own.
mean, that's another thing about film. Sorry, I'm tanging. There's the films you want to tell, and then there's the larger market that you sort of sit in and like, can you make your movies? And then also just this thing of like, what's your process? How do you make films and how are films made? like, these are all these different things that are going on. And then you have like films getting out and then like, you know, how people receive it.
Good, that was all good.
Jack C Newell (23:51.47)
And the thing it's like the vast majority of film is people talking about films that are made in critical analysis, I guess, or critics or any of that stuff. And it's just like, I've just been, I'm gonna probably regret saying this, but just like blown away at how little most people know about how films are made, especially people whose jobs is to watch them. they know so little, it's just, it's it's shocking. And I think probably a problem.
Yeah. Yeah. And like to a degree, it's not their job to know how it's made, but it's like when you read certain criticisms where it's like, Oh, clearly you're, you're blaming the wrong department or your, misunderstanding, like what could have occurred. it's like, once the meat, once the art object exists, like anyone can have a. Yeah. Take on it, but it's, yeah, it's, it is pretty shocking. Like I was talking to someone and they didn't realize it's not like a dozen cameras shooting all at once, but like you are, you are setting up.
and then getting as much coverage and then moving to another setup. So like people still, you know, it's kind of magical and mysterious, but once you're in it, there's just so much that could make something work or not work that I don't think critics have maybe the best sense sometimes. did read A.O. Scott's book. wrote a few, maybe five, 10 years ago, and it sort of, it helps add a different perspective on the art of criticism. And I think one of the things was like how it's technically a public service, a public good to protect
people of like, if a large body of independent journalists or critics are like, do not go to this restaurant. Do not watch this thing. Theoretically, it's a public good to save your time or save your money. But, you know, I think maybe that's an old school.
is I would say it's lightly overstating the importance of that, but like, sure. I mean, yeah, I get that. Sure.
Mishu Hilmy (25:36.258)
Yeah. Yeah. And then like, know, I guess this is maybe kind of a pivot, just curious. think maybe this is coming from my thoughts around the challenge of crossing thresholds into action. And then I know you had this project, think, was this with the partner destroy your art? Like, what was the sort of spirit of that? if you don't mind me asking.
For those who don't know, we invite a number of filmmakers to make a film that they screen only one time in front of an audience and then they destroy it in front of that audience. And so the idea is sort of, it's a multi-layered thing from the filmmaking standpoint. How does a filmmaker engage with a piece when they know that it's not going theatrical? We're not talking about streaming deals. We don't have to worry about.
contracts and crap like that. We don't have to worry about even like doing something that like, how do you take the prompt? Are you making the most quintessential version of you? Or are you making the film that's most quintessential you? Or are you making a film that's not like anything you'd ever do? But it's also, it's actually, I'm actually slightly more interested in the audience side, which is a film that's never gonna exist ever again. Like you're the only people who have ever seen this movie ever in the history of mankind. And we're gonna prove it to you because you're gonna see it now and then you're gonna see it get destroyed.
And it's been, we did it for five years, think, spread out because COVID screwed things up a little bit. But the level of audience engagement was insane. People were so dialed in on the movies. And I will say there's films I saw at Destroy Your Art that have stuck with me in ways, because I feel like I just was watching them harder than I would any movie. And I think it then opens up like, that's how movies used to be.
Yeah.
Jack C Newell (27:17.078)
watched. And I think we don't know that anymore because of VHS and DVDs and Blu-rays and now streaming. I can't even choose what to watch because there's so much stuff to watch. But that changes things. mean, everyone bemoans like, you know, they burned all the copies after they screen it because it's like, yeah, like why? It was sort of a fast sort of thing. I think the idea that came through me and Rebecca just talking and I think because she's in exhibition, so she's a good programmer and curator and I'm in filmmaking. I think it's like we always find ourselves having these conversations around sort of what
someone to a certain extent that we're having and getting into like, what if, is there something here and just being like, that's a really cool idea and what is it explore? And it's just been a great sort of audacious and it's not anarchist and it's not about destruction really. The destruction is part of it, but we're not saying like, cause some people would ask us like, well, what movies would you burn? It's like, that's like meaning basically what do you hate?
Yeah.
And that's not the point. The point, the destruction is the means to an end, is, and I think it's interesting too, because you watch filmmakers who then actually, most of them have found it incredibly freeing. And so I think that's also interesting. So it just, is a question. It's a provocative idea that gets a lot of questions going and creates a really rich experience for all.
Yeah, I think yeah, you know, because I I don't think I've ever attended one but I've seen it and just haven't been able to make it but like I would think about from the filmmaking side but sort of speak to the audience experience how that might instigate a kind of presence and a focus and sort of it just being individual and then it can sear into your memory that's really a sort of solid on what the audience experience is and then on the filmmaking side I think I was curious of like this
Mishu Hilmy (28:57.934)
type of thing maybe is a reinforcement or a reminder like you mentioned earlier, like the only way to practice making films is to make them or find maybe analogs. Like you could read a script and like shot list. I think that is good directing practice, but still like something like a prompt, like destroy your art seems to be a nice invitation for a filmmaker to go, look, this is going to be seen by a small handful, maybe a few hundred people at the music box or wherever it's screening. I think it's a good reminder to like.
go out and do something short because you know it's that's it like it's going to live once.
When we were younger, Buddy and Maya would always be like, as a filmmaker, there's like, and I don't want to get into the politics of this, but this is what we'd say. So I want to be true. But it's like, you're either like Woody Allen, meaning you're making a lot of movies. Yeah. Very prolific. Or you're Stanley Kubrick. And there's actually probably better versions of guys who made way more movies than Woody Allen, who are less problematic and guys who made less, far fewer moves than Kubrick. But the idea was like, where are you on the continuum? Like, you making, are you generating a lot? And neither one's right or wrong. Just like, who are you? Yeah.
I do think that the beauty of Destroy Your App, but also the other thing which I want to is like, and being action oriented is like being less precious. Even if it's a trick that you're playing on your own self, it can be really useful. think we do build things up a lot in our minds. I think sometimes, especially because films take so long, but even if like you work it on your own and then like, see, cause I've been part of projects in when it's like this, you know, they go in and like they worked it all out and they've got to figure it out. And they, they read the book about Hitchcock and like, well, I'm going to storyboard this and it's going to be.
Hitchcock and I'm gonna do what he did and then they get on set and it's like complete meltdown because it's like there's nothing's working. Yeah. Because nothing really works on a film set. I mean it all is functional but it's just like it's just not how you can plan it out. So I think by making it a little less precious I think is a really useful and maybe it's just a thing that when you're making it you just need to find your own ways to sort of prove, trick yourself and being like it's fine. Yeah. It's fine. It's no big deal. Like yes you're working with this huge actor or yes this is amazing but whatever who cares.
Jack C Newell (30:56.654)
And you might know like, actually it really, it really matters. But like, I think it's important that it's precious that it's important to you. But I think you can also, that can ruin it. Like you just like you Lenny from, you know, Mice and Men, you just like squeeze it to death because you just want to pet it so hard, you know? And I think that that is actually probably more likely than like, I didn't really care. So, and I'm not saying don't care and just show up like drunk or whatever, but like, you gotta find a way to know. Cause the film is always.
You're always adapting it. It's like there's the saying like the film you wanted to make, the film you thought you made, the film you actually made, but it's like she far more films than three. It's changing constantly. And only at the end are you like, this is the thing that we made. And for me, that thing at the end is, is a, is a culmination of purely process. Do you have a process in place that has gotten you to making the right choices? I mean, what are the right choices?
do have a process because you don't know what the right choices are. The only thing you do know is a process. What is your process for how you make art? What is your, and when I say art, I think in this one, I'm making films. What is your process for how you make films? The film that is generated out of that is a result of the process. It's not a result of the script or the actors or the director's intent or any of that stuff. Does that trap
Yeah, I think that, I think that makes sense. And like at the end of the day, it's different approaches. And I do think I lean more toward like the concept of volume. Ultimately, I think is more maybe, I don't want to say more important, but volume gives you more opportunities to not judge it. And like, there's more, there's more chances to do it versus the less volume, whether it's, you know, it could be resource related, like you just don't have the resources and that's totally fine.
I think less volume when it comes to importance makes it harder because it's maybe more perfectionist. So I think like I know at the least improvisation level, know, McNapier would speak to the more important you make something, the less likely you're going to play.
Mishu Hilmy (32:48.142)
Like you're just not going to, you're not going to like walk on stage. You're not going to even want to take a swing. So I do think there's something to be said about volume can at least alleviate that degree of importance because yeah, you want to have at least joy and flow. But if it's like every, everything is so important, then you're going to just be talking about that one script that you've written, you know, 20 years ago and never bothered to produce.
Right. Exactly. I think there's also misnomers around like the guys or the, or the women or the filmmakers, the artists who made less films. Like, they wanted to make more guaranteed. Like Kubrick, I guarantee you wanted to make more movies. Like there's a whole thing like Napoleon. Like, I mean, there's many, no one was like, I want to make three movies. You know?
I read this book, think the end of last year, was Arthur Devaney, Hollywood Economics, I think published 2001, maybe 2003. But it's like, you know, super dense statistics and math around Hollywood. And there's one equation he did about directors or writers and the potential of films they make. And it's something like for every one movie you make, you have the potential to make three more. So if you've made like 10 movies, you have the potential to make 30, but most people could never, yeah, 30 total in their lifetime, but most people can never.
ever reach their potential just by nature of what the industry is.
That's really depressing. don't know what's the, what was the point of that?
Mishu Hilmy (34:01.358)
I think, I'm to remember the point around that. I think it had to do, was in the context of like the economics of it. Like his argument, which I buy into is that filmmaking is uncertain and there's no, there's no way to understand the demand of any given final film until it's released. So there's like kind of marketing forecasting. It's all bunk because no one knows people want to watch this until people want to watch it. And the zeitgeist can dictate it.
You know, all that. So I think it's in the context of not judging or saying like, is a bad filmmaker because the three movies they made were all box office duds, but that they have the potential to keep making movies and that the recruitment or the return on investment is totally, it's impossible to forecast. You can't forecast how much a movie is going to make. At least that's his argument. And I, not a mathematician, but I bought it.
Well, that's, you know, no, no, no one knows anything in Hollywood. it's like, that's from, that's the, if anyone knows anything about that, that industry, that's what they know. And I think that is, that is absolutely true.
I think is freeing because if you alleviate yourself the burden of, you know, reach, imagine it should or ideally it would allow you to be more willing to create or take more creative risks versus like, do you want to live a creative life? It's like, well, what's the market want now? Okay. Werewolf horror genre. All right. I better write up my werewolf script. I think that'll probably erode your joy as a creator.
You see it happen all the time. That's a lot of that's most of what is happening is people trying to, you know, shoot at a moving target. And like that's constantly, you see it happen all the time. It's natural. think it's human nature. Yeah. But I think you're right. It's like, I think that's, I think you have to find out there's gotta be a part of you that weirdly doesn't care about anything once the movie's done. And I don't want to say that in a way that sounds flippant or like you don't care about.
Jack C Newell (35:52.974)
Cause when you make a film, independent film or a studio film, like you're interested with a budget, with money, and like you, you know, and if you sit in the director's seat or any creak key, like it's important. Like I'm not trying to be like, whatever. But it's like, there's gotta be, you've gotta find a party that's just like, I can't. Maybe it's just like, you just can't. Like you just don't know.
key creative or
Jack C Newell (36:11.906)
You have to make the film for your reasons and the reasons that the team have like all sort of signed on for. And then I think it's also knowing like universality is found in the specific. like finding a way to tell the most specific story you possibly can. And the only way to do that is for you to tell the story that that's written and then find as the director, you need to find a way to access in a way that makes it truthful to your experience. And that's, I think that's, that's like sort of the things that I always try to think about. That's the guiding stars. then you also do need to engage with like
Yeah, is this going to be seen by people or not seen by people or whatever? But like, think that cannot be, it's not unimportant, but it can't be, it's almost like not your job as a director.
of. Agreed. Yeah. And I've, talked to distributors as well through different industry exchanges and it's like, yeah, they don't, they typically don't expect that of like the director to be figuring out like what's the ROI and all that. Like just because I don't believe that, you know, there's any way to sort of predict demand doesn't mean like others experts in the industry believe it. So yeah, there are people who are like, no, we, we, if the poster looks this way and we cast this actor.
we will have a better chance at making money and that's their belief system. But I think at the level of creating or integrity, it's just knowing like, I'm curious your thoughts on the responsibility of if I'm going to make a story like this, then I need to be a little bit more reasonable because of just the way the content is or the nature of it. You know, if I'm making a movie that's this bleak or dark and I'm expecting someone to hand over five million, like maybe not, or maybe so, but.
I don't know, I just think, well, like, what's the level of integrity you have as a writer, producer, director around, what's your sense of responsibility when it comes to, say, the story and where it ends up?
Jack C Newell (37:53.71)
If it's a story that you're like, need to tell this story, this is a story that needs to be told, then I think you need to tell it. And then how does it come together is a sort of slightly different conversation. Essentially, the purest part of the entire filmmaking process is the writing part, which is funny because then the writers get absolutely crapped on rest of the entire time and are kind of just discarded, which is weird. But that's sort of the moment where the film can be, has its greatest potential to go back to your other thing.
But look, I mean, I can't name anything like offhand, but like there's tons of movies that shouldn't work that do. And there's tons of movies that are like, wow, that costs that much money. But then like, you know, it just, had the right actors in it and sort of made sense. Again, it's like, it's difficult to know. Do you think that when you, I have a couple of films that I'm looking at that I'm working on right now and some of them I'm like, okay, yeah, this like, having done it enough, not like I'm an expert, but doing it, having been engaging with it for a while, it's like, all right, this feels like.
a budget size that feels like that's reasonable. And then I got another one where I'm like, okay, we're making this movie for like under $200,000. Like there's just no, there's no way, you know, but that could change if you attract an actor then. So then you find yourself in a different situation. The problem with filmmaking is not the answer to your question, but it's like, you don't know. It's just so bonkers. And it's like, it's, there's a weird truism where it's like, if you have a great script, it actually matters less to have like,
amazing actors in it, which sounds weird. But the better your script is, the more people want to try to get more money into it and more actors, because it's a good script. But then it's like, but I actually like, you don't need that because you have a great script. It just sort of works. And like, not that you could just cast anyone, but like that's not the thing. So it's odd. And like the worst scripts actually like need the extra push from more explosions or actors or whatever the spectacle is in any movie. So it's, there's a sort of weird counterintuitiveness. I guess the best version is you get a great script and you get
great actors and you get enough money to be able to make it in a way that you think is best. But even that I don't buy in. I don't buy that. Like there's no way you always need more money. You always need more time and probably, but that's means like, but don't actually, you don't actually want it. that's a saying that's like, you're never going to enough time and enough money. And that's, it's a constraints per time. What earlier that scarcity mindset for your career. Okay. Tangents and wildly, but all good.
Jack C Newell (40:11.274)
I was really lucky because I went to high, when I went to high school, near the end, was like, I'm going to film school. know that. And then I just went to film school. And then because of the situation I had with my family, it was just me and my dad. And so after film school, I was like, I'm not moving to LA. I need to be by my dad. I'm staying in Chicago. And those two things I found myself in retrospect, realizing like I'm really lucky because I had a lot of friends who I went to high school with who like in college changed majors like five times.
because they didn't know what they wanted to do, which is fine. It's like everyone's on their own journey. But I just was like, I got a chance. I almost got a head start in some ways because like, I know exactly what I want to do. And then after film school, he's like, how do I go to grad school? I don't go to LA. Like, what do do? And I was like, I'm not, can't leave my dad. Like he's older. It's just me him. I need him and he needs me. And I'm going to be here for that. And it sort of just was like, I guess I'm not doing that then. And, and, just took it off the table for me. And it took off the mental.
psychological, emotional energy of like, cause going back and forth, like that you can spend a lot of time on that. But that also happens with movies, I guess, is that you can just be like in this in-between zone. And I think one of the things, maybe answering another question is like, have to be, you have to have comfort with ambiguity. And I think you need to be able to be understand that you are living like a liminal experience. You've not arrived yet. You're always not arriving. Yeah. And
The reality of being in the arts and being in this is there's also different ways to think about the questions. What is success to you? Are you talking about financial, monetary success? Are you talking about creative success? And those are different things and they don't always necessarily align. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I don't think they necessarily do or don't. It isn't like that. It's just sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I've made films that were commercially successful and creatively successful. So it's like...
And some that I thought were and that wouldn't, whatever, you get it. mean, we could call up, jump off this call and we're done. There could be an email in my inbox. That's like a life-changing email because money came in or a cast member said yes or something, or I got fired. Like, you know, you just don't know. Like it can really happen that quickly. And that's sort of crazy because it also could never happen. And that's the other thing. So if.
Jack C Newell (42:25.694)
that you're always going to be in this sort of liminal moment. Yeah. I guess that might change. Like ask me in 10 or 15 years where I either like things have gone. Well, I was going to say go well or go badly, but what under what says who if in 10 or 15 years I've made films that I've if I've made more films, I mean, that would be unsuccessful, whether they've made money or done or won awards or anything like that. I would just like get a chance to make more movies like that. That would be if we talk in 10 or 15 years and I've made another movie into that time, I would.
I'd probably want to have made more than one in 10, 15 years, you know, that would be, that would be success.
Yeah. I think end of day, like, it's an important, I think for an artistic practice to define your own success. I think historically or typically psychologically intrinsic motivators are healthier long-term versus extrinsic. Like, if I get an Oscar or I make a hundred million dollars at the box office, like the more extrinsic and less control you have over it, the more you'll probably like burn out and just like feel hollow and empty. I think Kuda is like for you, you probably have your own sense of like self-defined success. Hey,
Like for me, it's like, I enjoy the process? Like, am I present and light and curious when I'm sending an email to an actor or when I'm reviewing notes or when I'm at the editing bay, if I'm mostly lighthearted, curious and playful, I'm successful rather than, you know, pinning it to, you know, an arbitrary thing. So I think that is a pretty, pretty solid practice there. And then I had a question or maybe a thought, and this is going back to that, the comment around like, you know, a while ago you used to be
present with a movie because it's like, right, that's might be the only time I see it. then yeah, VHS comes out, but even in the eighties, nineties, it would take maybe six, 12 months, sometimes a year and a half for the VHS to even come out. like with the maybe proliferation of media that's out there, like I'm, I want to know like what your thoughts are around the relationship for you making it. It's like, you know, are there judgments around making work when it's like, Oh, well,
Mishu Hilmy (44:20.782)
At the end of the day, if you make a movie, it's just at this point going to be another thumbnail on a streaming platform. Like that's like a cynical take, but maybe also an objective honesty. Like, so what's your relationship to the sheer volume of access to stories and media that we have?
What's my reaction? Yeah, that's a hard one. That's right, know, media got democratized and everyone was like, that's great. But like we didn't really think it through. Like, because what it means now is that the problem is when you think someone's going to change things and I'm not going to talk about AI because I find these interesting conversation all the time, but it is happening with AI right now. They think about it.
changing like, okay, nothing else changes except one thing. It's like it work in a video game, but it's like with life is not a video game. Like everyone can make movies now, but then at the same time it's like, but then also there's going to be this technology that comes out. It's like, and everyone's movies are going to be available at all times. So it's like, okay. So, but I thought everyone could make movies meaning then, okay, then that means that's going to play it can it's like, that's not what that is.
I always think there's this great moment, think Coppola in like the 80s or whatever is talking about how great VHS's are and VHS camcorders. And he's like, and now there's going to be a Chopin on every street. We're going to have it's going to be so democratized. It's like that did not happen. That has not happened. And he was wrong then. He was wrong in the 90s and the 2000s. And he's certainly wrong now. The thing I find fascinating is everyone says like, these technological advancements. It's like, are we actually making categorically better films than we were making in the 19 20s, 30s? Right.
I would say maybe some are better, some are worse, but categorically, like, no. So that's interesting too. I mean, what do I think about it? I don't know if I have anything that's that profound. Like I love Criterion and I get to watch a bunch of movies on that. I think it sort of becomes almost like there's a piece of technology that hasn't been invented yet that's going to do better at like finding a way to get it, know, movies that you should see, I guess. That's what the art, that's what cinemas do. And that's what, you know, Rebecca was at Gene Siskel. Like that's something she was doing there. was like showing films and
Jack C Newell (46:24.19)
putting them in context in a way so people can understand. And that's what curation, I think, is partly about is putting it in context that civilians and film people can understand like, why do I need to watch this now? I can think that's the problem is like, you used to watch the movie. I remember a guy told me he worked at a movie theater when he lived in Houston, some Dudley Moore movie, 10 or eight, wasn't it with Bo Derek or whatever. He played for like 80 weeks or something like that. And it's just like, that sounds horrible, but like,
It's just like, that was what was there. And so you watched it, you know? And I think there's something missing right now in the like, in everything store sort of nature of how we look at this. That's what think Criterion is doing in the streaming space is probably the most interesting, maybe movies up there as well. It's just providing context for like, why is this, there's a hundred, literally a hundred million movies I could watch right now. Like, Anyway, but I think also like we haven't actually changed.
I love it too. And everyone's talking about Amazon and Netflix. Like we're disrupting things. We're disrupting things. And it's like, and, and, and then their new, their new renovation last year was like, we're going to show ads with movies. So you guys invented radio. Like what, what did you, what are you doing? No, what you innovated was how to just basically elbow everyone else out and just do your own thing. What are you innovating? There's two things that are always true about cinema. One is from the beginning of people have been talking about the death of cinema from the very beginning.
Yeah.
It's always been dying and yet it continues on. So what's going on there? And the other thing is like, you need movie stars. that's the one thing that's always, like that has not changed from Charlie Chaplin to like Tom Cruise. Like there's always movie stars and those are the things that move. We're talking about like big, big, big, big stuff. I think that's the things that move things. There's almost like, there needs to be a different way in which we think about how, how does independent film even exist? And that's why like the criteria is in the movies. Like that's interesting.
Mishu Hilmy (48:14.126)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, mean, it's like, yeah, I think about that a lot too. Like the bemoaning of the inevitable demise of the industry for over a hundred years. Um, and I do think the thing that's just changed, it's like, it's just a new platform. It's like, you know, the radio is a platform, movie theaters to exhibit celluloid was a platform. Television was a platform.
And now I just think the platforms of whether it's streaming online or social media is just a lot more access. I think there's still a part of people that want to have a collective communal experience. And I think movies are really successful at doing that. Whether the volume is, I would be curious like what's the volume, what's the sort of successor rates of something that, you know, is really genuinely good compared to say the 1920s and 1950s and 1960s and the.
I imagine it's still probably like, you know, five to 20 a year, but who's the judge? But my biggest concern with these platforms is, I was just writing about this, like it's making everyone media makers and marketers and it's exploiting free labor. And I think that's my biggest concern around the platform of like not democratizing it, not even there's a Chopin on every street corner, but rather the expectation has been established of you need to give your free labor.
to Instagram Reels, TikTok, YouTube, whatever, over time and maybe if you pull the lever enough times, your free labor will yield you opportunity. It's like giving your movies to AMC like every day, five times a day. That's what sort of, know, social media can be looked at in a certain way.
I hear that, what I think about is something that maybe we touched on is, for me, art is about intentionality. It's, know, artists are defined by the choices that they make. Pure and simple. And I guess I talked a little bit about the fourth process, but it's just that. think then, if you're, I mean, I don't think, know, whatever, know we're ending here, but it's like, here's the, I mean, if it's on social media, like it's not a movie, like it's not a film. I don't know what that is. It's something else. It's something else. I'm not saying it's bad or unworthy, but it's not.
Jack C Newell (50:11.15)
I don't think it's a film. think it's borrowing film stuff. Yeah. The thing about film is really weird. It's like, there's not really any film is all borrowed. We borrow everything from music, from theater, from dance, from fashion, from photography. The only thing I think that's truly unique in terms of film is editing. mean, that was like, it's the big thing that film sort of brought to the table, but it's an amalgamation. And so there's nothing to say that there can't be multiple ways in which visual arts are sort of.
Maybe we're witnessing a different thing because I don't know the Instagram thing. I'm like man. I don't know what that is like I wouldn't Not that I mean someone might be really successful at that and that's great. But again, it's like what is your intention? What are you trying to do? I mean if you're trying to make a movie and you're in your putting it on your Instagram, I Don't know
Yeah. I mean, it's like the verticals, think SAG just signed an agreement for verticals, which is great. But it's like, it's a whole different part of the industry that's feeding an audience and serving an audience. And those people might just not want to go sit in a movie theater, except maybe five times a year when their friends are like, you have to see this. And I think maybe that's what's been a major change of there's a, know, you don't have a captive audience, like in the thirties where it's like, well, there's radio or going to a movie. Well, I guess I'll spend four hours at the movie house.
think, you know, obviously we don't have a time machine, I think we sometimes will, sort of film, film going has become a little bit precious. Now I like it because I don't want anyone to talk and I don't want it their phones. So I'm like, shut the hell up, like get out here. I would, I would venture that earlier times.
It was far more raucous. There's far more talking. mean, when, when they would show movies, you know, some movie theaters like were the first places to have air conditioning, like the one, the movie theater that my wife and her mom rehabbed in Winterset, Iowa, there was like a water pit cause they would just have a waterfall that they would shoot a fan through to cool the theater down. So it's like people are people coming in there cause they love movies or they come in there cause it's like, you can get cool and they're going to show five movies in a row, you know, and like, so I think sometimes we would talk about this like sort of like,
Jack C Newell (52:08.17)
the haloed halls of the church that is my centimine. It's just like, okay, yeah, maybe. I mean, sure, but it's a little bit like, geez Louise. Maybe that isn't exactly how it used to be. So I don't know. I think it's interesting. think if you're on the filmmaking side of things, I think it's about finding out. I don't think it changes anything for you. I think partly all of these things are, if I made a film and I was like, man, I think this is a great film. And then Instagram was like, we want to release this on Instagram. Of course, that's different than what you're talking about. You're saying I'm going to make a movie.
for free and then just put it up there and hope someone. Yeah, it's just not, I don't know. I don't know what that.
I think it's more just for me like musing on the pressures of because anyone can access and has access to tools to make these things. The platforms have almost made it seem like you should be doing this consistently, even though yeah, like a two minute bit or a 30 second bit on social media is like, it's not a film. It's like a, it's a 30 second bit. They can be cinematic, sure. But at the end of day, it's not a long story that's being told to a large group of people. So yeah.
Here's a question that I've been asking my friends lately and my film friends, I more so is, it's, there's no right or wrong answer, but I think it's an interesting one. And maybe you can ask your own friends about it. Do you like movies or do you like stories?
Yeah, I think I usually think in terms of risk reward because stories has just a higher reward ratio because like, you can watch any story versus a movie is a very specific type of, maybe Aristotelian story structure, five acts, three acts. Like that's, know, traditionally what a movie can be. The sense does versus like TV shows. Yes, they have a structure, but you're just following the character. I think for me personally, it's gotta be, it's like stories, right? Like I I'll, I'll watch an experimental.
Mishu Hilmy (53:46.272)
movie or experimental short every once in a while and feel discombobulated. But overall, I want to have some sort of satisfying story.
Yeah, I think a lot of people, even people who are like, I'm a total movie person or a film person, if you really scrutinize it, I think that it's like they like stories.
Yeah.
And think filmmaking is still the dominant, it is still the dominant art form in our culture, know? Dominant storytelling art form, excuse me, in our culture, film and television.
Like how do you stay motivated or how have you been staying motivated because it's such an uncertain medium or world we live in?
Jack C Newell (54:20.078)
I've been, you know, everyone's been moaning Hollywood and all that stuff and the beauty about being like an independent filmmaker and not being in LA is like it's never been good. Like it's always been hard. So it's just like, I don't know. Like, this is always, it's never, there's never a moment where it was great to be an independent filmmaker. There's no Halcyon days. There's no, and remember in the whatevers and everyone was spending money on independent films. It's like, that did not happen. So it's just, there's just another hard and it's just like, it's hard. It's where's it coming, where's it coming at today? I don't celebrate.
Rebecca is like, oh my God, this movie's happening, you should be so excited. And I'm like, I've had too many movies fall apart. I don't celebrate until like, and I've been hired too many times and the director's been fired in the process to fix other films. So it's like, I don't celebrate until the movie's like, and I can feel like, I made this movie? Okay, good. But also I'm very quick to just like, I'm done. I love them and leave them. We showed monuments at Music Box a couple of months ago and we'd made that in 2017, 18. And it was really hard to make.
And it was a labor of love and it really important to me. But I will tell, like I was shocked when I saw the movie. I was like, I don't remember this. It was just so weird. It's great. There's many parts of the movie I was like, I don't, where did this come from? Like it was so, it was, it was odd. It was almost like, who made this movie? It's odd, really interesting. I I think for me, it's just trying to stay engaged and finding ways. I think it's not, you know, you come in every movie that you put together, you always going to try to make it the biggest version of that movie.
Biggest budget, you I'm gonna get Julie Roberts in it the whole thing and then basically the process of making the movie is It just isn't that like it just sort of falls down to a spot I think part of it is not getting anchored to like it's the mountaintop thing again where it's like you need to don't try don't keep looking at the mountain at the top of the mountain like Akira Kurosawa said just try to focus on like the situation you're in right now So I think part of it is it's an ego thing personally but for all of us like you have an idea about what you want
I it's you want to have an idea about what you think your talent is, you think you should be, about how this film should be received. You're probably seeing other filmmakers like that guy's a hack. Why is he making it? Like there's all these things that kind of fall into it. I think the challenge is always like, how do you just try to, what is this thing right now? How do I do this? How do you know? And how do I try to make it?
Jack C Newell (56:35.502)
and be impactful. I was just saying, it's like, do you eat an elephant like one bite at a time? It's just knowing. And then it's like, where do you, essentially the question you've been asking this time is like, where do I start eating the elephant? You it's like, what's the best place to start eating the elephant? like, there's no great, just start eating. Like just start, you just gotta, if your job is to eat the elephant, just like, just start chopping. But personally, I would say not eating the elephant is not gonna get you to having an eaten elephant. Is this metaphor just completely destroyed?
I think it works for the most part.
Yeah. So it's like, I think it's just like, you just need to start. And I, for me, that, that is, that is always engaging and interesting and keeps me motivated and keeps me sort of like engaged in the process. And I think that has served me well up until now. And we'll see if that continues, but I think that is, that is what I would.
Yeah, I think that makes sense. think that's well said. Like it's just a degree of commitment going like I tell people, I tell myself, I love elephants. And it's just a matter of committing to go, all right, did you see like bring out your cutlery? Did you take a chomp today? And I think it's too easy to make excuses. At least for me, it's like, well, I used to think I like elephants, but actually I like something else. Or why am I eating an elephant? It doesn't matter. Just do the steps. So focusing on sort of the smallest immediate increment.
like climbing up a mountain, it's like literally one foot forward. And you know, that's, I think that that makes sense.
Jack C Newell (57:56.494)
Yeah, I think almost to a certain extent, maybe perhaps my answer is very, is just not that interesting, which is that like, I don't think about it. And that sounds really probably douchey. Like, and I don't mean it like that, but I just, mean, I'm really trying to answer you honestly. I think what this is a lot like, are you a painter only when you're having, when you're actually touching paintbrush to canvas? And like, no, that's crazy. No one would say that.
And it's like, so I think how do you engage with the world? And it's like, you just need to understand that. And like, then that's sort of, kind of go from there. So it's like, if you are a filmmaker, then you don't need to be making a film every single second of your life to be a filmmaker. I probably used to think that. That's probably why I shot so much. But it's like, that's not, that's not the case. And so it's just, how do you engage with the world? How do you take it in? How do you synthesize it? And how, when, do you put out in the world? You need to make a million movies. Like you might be in prep or like you might be writing a movie right now that you don't even know yet. It's just not, it hasn't formed in you. It's a zygote.
and it just needs more time. And that might be the best film that's ever been made.
Yeah. Well said, Jack. And it's been an absolute delight getting to chat. thanks. Time's gone by.
Yeah, thanks. Wonderful. Wonderful conversation. appreciate it.
Mishu Hilmy (59:12.046)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Here we go. This is a little prompt around rest.
Uh, reframing your relationship with the rest. So, uh, yeah, if you feel like you should be working, try choosing to rest instead of rest on purpose, take a nap, a walk, I don't know, play a video game, do some doodling, whatever it is to rest and see, notice how that recovery, that moment of rest has allowed you to maybe. Refuel creativity later, practice rest, please do it. All right. That's it for today.
Thank you for listening this far.