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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni. Welcome back to From Here Forward, A UBC Podcast Network podcast. I'm Carol.
[00:00:06] Jeevan Sangha: And I'm Jeevan. Happy April.
[00:00:08] Carol Eugene Park: Happy April. It feels like every month after January, sprints away from us. Like how are we already defrosting?
[00:00:14] Jeevan Sangha: No, I know. And thanks to the current political climate, some days are feeling extra long.
[00:00:19] Carol Eugene Park: They really do, they really do. I mean, Justin Trudeau has left the federal leader chat. Trump has been president for four months, threatening to make Canada 51st state, which has been quite the experience. Canadians are shopping strategically among these wonderful tariff times that seem to be an on again, off again toxic relationship. And the stock market seems to be in more conversations than I wish for it to be in. So that's great.
[00:00:44] Jeevan Sangha: Yeah. What a time, and I mean, we can't forget about Trump's executive order that called for an end to diversity, equity, and inclusion or DEI initiatives across the US calling them, quote, illegal and immoral discrimination programs.
[00:00:57] I mean, come on,
[00:00:57] Carol Eugene Park: immoral. I love it. Well, on that note, Jeevan and I talked to Dr. Camilia Bryan, an assistant professor at the Sauder School of Business at UBC. She walked us through definitions related to DEI and her research on the backlash against DEI initiatives and ways to disrupt them as well.
[00:01:15] Jeevan Sangha: And with all the uncertainty flying around about DEI, our chat with Dr.
[00:01:19] Bryan brought some much-needed clarity and even some hope for the future.
[00:01:23] Carol Eugene Park: And considering all things, it was overall a great conversation. So, we hope you enjoy.
[00:01:28] Jeevan Sangha: Of course, in the most recent news cycle, we've been hearing a lot about DEI. Um, but for clarity's sake, could you define DEI for us? Who does it include and who does it not include?
[00:01:38] Dr. Camelia Bryan: For diversity, equity inclusion initiatives, it includes, for example, women, people who are transgendered, people who are the LGBTIQQ plus community, people who are racial minorities, people with disabilities. So, a lot of different types of groups who often might not always have the same access and opportunities in organizations are targeted by DEI initiatives in order to give them more opportunities.
[00:01:58] Carol Eugene Park: So, for some people, DEI kind of is associated with race, or at least now we're learning some people thought that. So, um, what are your thoughts on the implications of, you know, racialized people being counted as like "DEI hires", whereas that kind of expression, isn't always as frequently directed towards, you know, veterans or white women?
[00:02:17] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Yeah, I think that it's not a fair categorization because the subtext is that they were hired simply because of their race. But when DEI is practiced, especially when it's practiced properly, everybody is still qualified. Like it's just simply giving opportunities to people who might not maybe they'd been discriminated, maybe there was bias, maybe they weren't being accounted for. Now they're getting entry into the organization. So that's what I would say in response to that. Also, I think sometimes you need to think about whether or not this person actually is a perceived DEI hire? Like I'm doing interviews right now for a research project and some of the participants will say, oh, like so and so is a DEI hire, but then I, when you ask them, they don't really have proof that there was a specific DEI initiative even that this person was hired. It is just this assumption sometimes when they're working with people who are racialized, that they're hired because of diversity initiatives. And that might not be the case, and even then, they might still be very qualified as well.
[00:03:08] Jeevan Sangha: I really appreciated what you had said earlier about the difference between like. This person just got hired and they must be a DEI hire versus like there was an actual initiative that was put behind this and it was or wasn't following it. So, can you explain a bit more in depth about what the actual policy and initiative looks like within an organizational setting and how that differs from this kind of very amorphous idea of a diversity hire?
[00:03:32] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Yeah. For example, like the interviews we've been doing, sometimes they're working with somebody who's racialized and, in their opinion, they don't like that person's performance, or they think they see issues with that person's performance. So, their justification automatically is, they must have been hired by the DEI initiative. They don't have proof, but especially cause that's the broader discourse in society, I think they just infer that. Even though, some of the organizations that they are just talking about. I know very clearly, they don't have a program like that, but they just infer that because that's how they rationalize it.
[00:04:00] So when, like for example, when companies have DEI initiatives, some of the things that they do is, for example, they have employee resource groups. So, for example, they have Out On Bay Street, where people who are L-G-B-T-Q and finance community can go and discuss and get extra support because obviously there's different things that they're going to be experiencing versus people who aren't part of that community.
[00:04:19] They might have, for example, affinity groups, people who are black and Asian employees, or Latinx employees. Those are just examples of some also. They might do extra mentoring activities. That's another example of A DEI program that might happen. So that's something a lot of companies have done, for example, to improve the representation of women in leadership, to give them extra mentoring opportunities.
[00:04:40] That's also something that DEI practices can do because often when you're a group that doesn't have the same access to power, you don't get the same mentoring and opportunity. So, it's meant to give that as well.
[00:04:50] Um, another way that I've also seen it happen is it does impact hiring practices. And I know that's the one that a lot of people are talking about, that's the topic that tends to get the most attention. How it's usually supposed to be done is you look through the candidates, you do a hiring, that one's blind, and then in the final candidates, for example, if there's somebody who, for example, might be a woman or have some other like targeted identity, that would give them a boost in that way.
[00:05:16] But there's still a very clear set of standards that have to be filtered through to get to that process. It's not simply looking and just like picking a resume and thinking, oh, this person looks like they fit this identity. I will now select them. That's not how it's done. And, and they have to really show that that person is at the same level as everybody else, then they can incorporate that. So, it's just meant to account for structural barriers that that person might be facing. And if they're both the same level, then perhaps to consider that when you're evaluating them.
[00:05:44] Jeevan Sangha: in a recent interview with the Tyee, I read about you talking about how DEI, backlash doesn't necessarily mean that DEI is failing, but that it instead signals that the dominant group might be uncomfortable with the way power is shifting. Why, in your opinion, do you think so many people are opposed to DEI initiatives? And could you explain more about your reasoning on why backlash doesn't necessarily mean that DEI is failing?
[00:06:08] Dr. Camelia Bryan: I think when there's backlash, it's a sign that there's progress. Whenever there's been progress, there has been backlash because. Backlash is a sign that there's actually changes in the power structure and people are uncomfortable with that.
[00:06:20] After 2020, there was a lot of changes that companies made. Some of it was superficial, but some of it was substantive, and that made some people very uncomfortable, and it also made people think about things they might not had to think about before, it was also more opportunities.
[00:06:33] And then tying it back to why I don't think necessarily backlash means that it can be the end. So, I have a paper I just published. It's in the Academy of Management Review and the idea is that there are cases where people are threatened by diversity and it's an intense threat where it really challenges how they understand and see the world, and they use that as a learning opportunity.
[00:06:51] Um, like a really extreme case that we open the paper with is man named Caolan Robertson, who worked, um, with the alt-right and he used to be the YouTuber for all the lot of the really famous alt-right figures, you've probably heard about in both Canada & the U.S. Very opposed to DEI he found diversity, very like threatening. But eventually he actually experienced a threat that was just so severe, and it challenged how he was experiencing his understanding of the world, and now he actually leads a whole organization to deradicalize people. So that's a complete change. So obviously it's not every single circumstance, but, if you can engage in dialogue and learning when you're experiencing that, instead of allowing people to just maybe double down and think, oh, this person's just a DEI hire. It can really, in those circumstances, I think there's a lot of opportunity for organizations to maybe disrupt and steer them in a better direction.
[00:07:39] Carol Eugene Park: And just for clarity's sake, when you talk about dominant groups.
[00:07:44] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Yeah.
[00:07:44] Carol Eugene Park: In North American society, who is that?
[00:07:46] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Yeah, so for example, people who are cisgendered would, be considered a dominant group, men are a dominant group, um, people who are white are dominant groups. So, these are just groups that tend to have like more power and resources typically in society.
[00:07:59] Carol Eugene Park: So, you know, given broader criticisms of DEI.
[00:08:02] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:02] Carol Eugene Park: Do you think there needs to be a shift in the language that's used, um, in order to appeal to unquote threatened dominant groups in Canada or the US?
[00:08:11] Dr. Camelia Bryan: I don't think that the language needs to be softened, but I think there needs to be a lot more education because I think when DEI was being enacted, especially after 2020, even if companies weren't necessarily on board DEI, there's a lot of pressure for them to enact DEI at that time, and they might have done it very quickly without always educating the employees and maybe explaining the importance of why it's happening.
[00:08:31] cause one common misconception sometimes why people feel threatened is that they think, oh, it's going to come at the expense of my opportunities. Like now perhaps it's going to be reverse discrimination where I'm being disadvantaged now, even if that's not the case at all.
[00:08:44] So I think being really clear about that and just letting them know upfront and creating basis for dialogue where you can hear concerns and then address them proactively can be very powerful rather than simply if you just engage with a policy and then. Some people are like, well, I wonder why this is happening. Why are they doing this? And then they go on the internet and do their own research, and then maybe they go on a Jordan Peterson video or something else, and that's their education, and that can really spiral. But if you start early on and you can explain and address the concerns and provide that education.
[00:09:14] So that's something else we talk about in the paper is that when you can have dialogue, especially with somebody who's affected a lot, it can really be illustrative and facilitating your learning process.
[00:09:24] Carol Eugene Park: If we look in corporate settings that might have.
[00:09:27] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Yeah.
[00:09:27] Carol Eugene Park: More of a white male dominant.
[00:09:29] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:30] Carol Eugene Park: And, you know, maybe after some criticism they might respond with, well, these were the most, um, qualified groups of people.
[00:09:39] And, you know, when we're having these kinds of discussions about DEI.
[00:09:41] Dr. Camelia Bryan: mm-hmm.
[00:09:41] Carol Eugene Park: And we say, oh, like, oh, we tried to look.
[00:09:44] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:44] Carol Eugene Park: But we couldn't find any, like what's happening there from your expertise, what's missing? What are biases? Like, what's happening there?
[00:09:51] Dr. Camelia Bryan: You have to think sometimes about prototypes, so when you have an idea of what somebody looks like, who's competent, or somebody who's a leader, for example. Just naturally you'll be biased towards somebody who looks like that, and you'll just see them as competent because it's kind of like the hands fitting the glove quite well. So that's something that will bias in the perceptions. That's why it's also really important to sometimes look at really objective criteria when you're hiring and not make it simply subjective. And also having outside sources to look and examine the hiring process, because that's also part of why like DEI practices are needed in hiring, is that there are biases in this way.
[00:10:27] And so for example, you might see 'them as very comparable, but maybe that person might even have higher qualifications because there's a bias in that way because they're being downplayed. So, and there's a lot of research showing that. For example, like when you send out the same resumes, if one name has, for example, an Asian or black name, they will get less callbacks, exact same call, resume, same background, same experience, but there's other factors that go into play.
[00:10:51] And then also sometimes you're not aware of it, but you might be looking for things like, how similar is this person to me? Can I get along with this person or can I have grab a beer? And you'll then rationalize it with, oh, this person's just more qualified because you just like that candidate better. So being really aware and thoughtful in how you're hiring. That's also something I talk about in the classroom. A lot of us can just be biased and we have to be really aware of that.
[00:11:13] Jeevan Sangha: Over the last few years, it seems like there's been a growth in different kinds of DEI initiatives being introduced. Now we're seeing them be struck down on mass in the U.S. Can you walk us through the emergence of DEI over the last few years and exactly how we got to this current moment?
[00:11:27] Dr. Camelia Bryan: I think George Floyd was a really pivotal moment, because I was doing research in DEI before then and the reception towards the research and just, the discourse completely altered. Before it was considered more peripheral, perhaps in companies, and it was just something that might been considered nice to have. But like with George Floyd, that really escalated the whole entire DEI industry. It, it grew quite a bit, roles exploded quite a bit around that time. Like I remember seeing many positions, I know people who were in the DEI field who grew a lot of opportunities, and then people started talking a lot and reflecting a lot. There was a lot of reading groups that were started. It was a really like transformational event for a lot of people that even when I look, do my research, I see people talk about that event and how it really got them interested.
[00:12:12] There was a lot of changes as well. So, a lot of companies, for example, that never had DEI practices, they all of a sudden issued statement. They also sometimes had to backtrack because internal investigations revealed contrary to what they were saying, they weren't reflecting that. But it was starting to become important. Like consumers cared about it, employees were asking about it, and it became something companies had to contend with. So, companies started to talk about it more.
[00:12:35] But at the same time, it happened quite quickly, and there were people who felt as if this was happening too fast, and they also felt as if it was very forced and really threatened by the changes as well. So, like I said, when there's really big changes, when backlash is happening, it's a sign that things are working, or things are actually being changed in that way. And actually, it was around the time of 2020, I started my research on backlash. Although I didn't know what was going to be coming, I had a feeling that given all the changes that would be happening.
[00:13:04] And that's something that political parties have been able to really play into in terms of those concerns and bringing up is violating moral, the system being meritocratic, or you're now going to be disadvantaged. And so, it became something that people had to do trainings, they had to think about it. I think it became much more conscious for them. And also, people just felt very uncomfortable with that. I think it resulted in a backlash just from all of the changes in that way.
[00:13:26] Carol Eugene Park: So, what do companies gain by embracing DEI policies and then on the flip side. What do places like Meta or Amazon gain by removing them if there is anything that they gain?
[00:13:36] Dr. Camelia Bryan: So, employees do care about DEI, so it does shape not only how your employees are attracted to the company, but also consumers. So, for example, Target is now experiencing a downturn because there is a boycott having for Target because they turn back under DEI practices in that way. And then also even going beyond the market. There's also the morality taste that, for example, if you have certain values you're holding as a company, then you want to align those. Like for example, if you really care about fairness and you care about quality, those are things that you're emphasizing in your company.
[00:14:07] Then a lack of DEI and lack of fairness in that way, it doesn't reflect. And so, when you're able to show these people do appreciate that employees do feel much better, they feel more engaged, especially if you have marginalized employees in your company. It really changes their experiences. Like for example, having affinity groups where they're able to have support and talk about their unique experiences, it's very supportive and very helpful.
[00:14:29] But on the flip side, so there's companies that are drawing back or like, for example, Meta, a lot of companies have now scaled back. First off, and one of the risks is that it seems quite inauthentic. Um, you don't really believe that this company genuinely was interested in DEI, if they would scale back so quickly because. For example, Meta came out quite strongly in favor of the Black Lives Matter movement and even Mark Zuckerberg's made that statement and there was a lot of work, and then they completely removed everything once political changes happened. So that seems quite inauthentic and just generally negatively on your impression as a leader and also for the organization.
[00:15:03] And Also on a broader level, people who are in that company and maybe were attracted for those DEI initiatives or people who might be targeted groups and feel underrepresented, that can be quite harmful for them. It's quite psychologically distressing to see that, especially if they feel like their identity is being validated, it can be quite threatening as well for them and really signal a lack of safety.
[00:15:25] Jeevan Sangha: and. What, if any, intersections have you observed, uh, with criticisms of DEI policies and perhaps the rise of populism across the west? Do you see any intersections between those?
[00:15:38] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Yeah, I do see intersections. It's not the focus of my research, but I do see it come up in interviews because DEI is political and it's very embedded in politics. Even. Even though like often practice in organizations, it has become a politically charged topic.
[00:15:53] And with the rise of populism, I think that's also in facilitated backlash because with populism you're really especially highlighting like ingroup and outgroup differences and that this group is perhaps gaining at the expense of your group. And when people perceive that another group is starting to get advantages, it's something that can really be leveraged in order to rally support. And it gets displaced sometimes that this group is the reason that I am not moving up or ahead, even if that's not necessarily the case. And there's actually a lot of other factors, but sometimes some groups unfortunately become easy scapegoats in that way.
[00:16:26] Carol Eugene Park: I just want to go back to, um, your piece about dialogue and kind of having that as a tool to, to create a more DEI safe space. I'm just curious. Like I have coworkers who are not necessarily open to talking about DEI related things, um.
[00:16:42] Dr. Camelia Bryan: mm-hmm.
[00:16:42] Carol Eugene Park: But I would love to facilitate these things, but they're just not as reflective. So, for, for someone like me who wants to make sure that the culture is very inclusive.
[00:16:52] Dr. Camelia Bryan: mm-hmm.
[00:16:52] Carol Eugene Park: How does that dialogue even start? Because I'm already apprehensive of how they're going to react.
[00:16:57] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Yeah.
[00:16:57] Carol Eugene Park: And I don't really know what language to use, if it might push them further away. So, I'm just curious what your take is on that.
[00:17:04] Dr. Camelia Bryan: So, well, sometimes you have to meet people where they're at. I know it doesn't always seem fair, but especially if you want to create a conversation is to understand where they're coming from.
[00:17:13] Like I've even engaged in dialogue with people who are very opposed to DEI quite strongly, but. I did let, I did hear them out, so I did let them speak and then I just simply said, well, there's actually evidence showing this, or there's evidence showing that. And some of the things they said would be quite harmful and could be really upsetting, but I saw it as they're just misinformed, but the important part is that they wanted to engage in dialogue. I think they were very surprised I was willing to engage in dialogue because, um, I think sometimes people hear now like, oh, I research DEI, they just assume, like, I wouldn't be open to discussing or debating, but I'm very open to doing that. So, I really take it seriously to be researching DEI. And I thought about this a lot on both sides of the issue. And I think doing that as we were talking, it did start to make them realize that maybe there were certain things they didn't know about or there were some concerns that they were having as well. But honestly that does take a lot of labor.
[00:18:07] So the other important part I also want to just bring up, because that was something I think sometimes people misperceive, it doesn't always have to be on the onus of the target of the DEI initiative to engage in the dialogue. So, there is a lot of ways that you can do learning with members of your own group. Like for example, I am cisgendered, but I can still talk about transgendered issues with other people I know who are cisgendered and reflect on that and discuss about that in gender roles and ways that they might not have reflected. And that was something else I wanted to just bring up because sometimes when people hear about dialogue, the idea is, oh, you're creating all this emotional labor for, but in some, in some cases, they can actually feel they can speak more openly. And if that person can really listen to them and correct it, it can be a really safe space in that way.
[00:18:50] So I think those are ways that you can do that, but it's important, I think, first to have safety where you can both actually be vulnerable and actually say what you're truly thinking. I think that can be really tricky with DEI because it is a political topic, and people are very fearful to say what they truly think. But when you hear what they truly think, you can correct it then. So if, for example, somebody just misunderstood the DEI initiative meant they couldn't get promoted and you could just engage and correct that, that could go a really long way than them just continuing to oppose it and perhaps not wanting to help people they perceive as being hired as DEI initiatives.
[00:19:23] So I also, why I emphasize, um, it's important early on to provide the context, explanation and understanding. And also, to show that it's something the organization is doing together, and we all have a role to play in this, it's not just one group.
[00:19:35] Jeevan Sangha: I'm curious if there are any common questions that come up when you're teaching about DEI. Are there things that you are surprised that come up or gaps in knowledge that kind of reveal like a broader sort of, um, perception of DEI?
[00:19:49] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Sometimes even when I'm not teaching about DEI because it's known that I research DEI, so someone might just be curious and ask me questions. I think because it's coming out of the media, it starts to become something that people think about, and I sometimes have to explain that it's not just hiring somebody based off of your race or your gender, like maybe the way the media would portray it. It's more just accounting for that towards the end of the hiring process.
[00:20:13] Also, I think a lot of people maybe don't understand why there is a DEI Initiative. Context is really important in understanding why these initiatives exist because if you just assume everyone starts at the same playing field, you might just think this is really unfair, like why would you give something extra to one group? But I think understanding the context and that understanding societal structures, I think that helps provide a lot of understanding then for why these things will happen and perhaps certain setbacks that other groups might be facing in that not each group is experiencing the same starting point in society.
[00:20:47] Carol Eugene Park: Before we wrap up, do you have anything that you want to, bring up that we didn't ask you about, related to this topic?
[00:20:53] Dr. Camelia Bryan: Well, yeah, if you're really interested in learning more about backlash against DEI and the whole learning process, I have the paper, it's called Beyond Backlash. Um, and if you go on Google Scholar, you can read it and it will have a whole explanation of this process, especially we have a really detailed explanation about how the conditions for this dialogue. And also, what are structures in the organization that can also help facilitate this dialogue because obviously we can't force people to have conversations but creating structures where people can talk about diversity more freely can really help in that way.
[00:21:24] Carol Eugene Park: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really, really
[00:21:27] Dr. Camelia Bryan: thank you.
[00:21:27] Carol Eugene Park: Appreciate it.
[00:21:29] So fellow DEI hire. What did you think of that convo?
[00:21:34] Jeevan Sangha: Nice. Well, in the current storm that is geopolitics. It was nice to get some clarity on what DEI actually is. Uh, with everything flying around in the news, it's really easy to lose track of the facts. I mean, since the executive order was introduced, companies like Target, Google, Amazon, and countless others have publicly rolled back their DEI goals and initiatives. It's kind of scary to watch,
[00:21:56] Carol Eugene Park: but Costco stood the ground, and we love to see that.
[00:21:59] Jeevan Sangha: We love Costco. Well, in reality, DEI initiatives are intended to address and correct discriminatory policies or practices that might be found in a company. DEI goes way back. It has roots in the 1960s anti-discrimination movement in the US when laws like the Equal Pay Act of 1963 and others address labor issues based on protected classes.
[00:22:19] It seems like every DEI initiative is different, but overall experts say the goal is. To make sure companies and leaders examine the way their company treats marginalized groups and, that was my TED talk. I'm done now, I promise. What do you think, Carol?
[00:22:33] Carol Eugene Park: I have no notes. And you know, like you said, it's nice to talk to an expert on facts when there's a lot of emotional responses around this apparently controversial topic from both sides of the spectrum.
[00:22:44] So thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a
[00:22:55] review. You can find me on Blue Sky at Carol Eugene Park,
[00:22:58] Jeevan Sangha: and me on Twitter at Jeevan K Sangha. From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Podium Podcast Company.