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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the overflow with Brandon and Susan.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we are so excited to talk about today, an area in relationships. Yeah. You know, we have these big broad categories, and today we're in the category of relationships. We're gonna talk a lot about relationships. Yes.
Speaker 1:But specifically, we wanna tackle a tough issue to talk about. Yeah. It's the most intimate of all areas in a relationship. It is everywhere in our culture. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we're gonna talk about it today. We're gonna talk about sex and romance.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sex and romance. And when you said that we're so excited to talk about it, it made me laugh because it's we're excited.
Speaker 1:We are, I know, we are excited to talk about it.
Speaker 2:But it's an exciting topic.
Speaker 1:We're passionate.
Speaker 2:Yes, we are, we're passionate.
Speaker 1:Okay, why are you excited? And I'll tell why I'm excited.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm excited for multiple reasons. I think this is an area that impacts everyone. We were made as sexual beings. We were made for people who desire to feel loved and to encounter love in a romantic way. There's just something inside of us.
Speaker 2:And some people have the gift of singleness. In my experience, that's a rare gift. And by gift, I don't mean that just that you're single. I mean that you want to be single. That's the rare gift.
Speaker 2:And so with that said, because back to our worldview, we understand from the bible that we are are broken because of sin apart from the restoration of Jesus and his holy spirit at work within us, that this is another one of those areas where if we just allow it to default, then it'll destroy.
Speaker 1:Totally agree. Default is the worst position to be in on this topic. Here's why I am excited. I'm excited because of the lies that are being told in our culture. Because there is a current.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm I'm a I love to fish, and I'll bass fish and I love bass fishing from a boat. I kinda don't wanna bass fish if I'm not in a boat. I mean, I'll do it from the from the shore, but I really wanna be in a boat. Yeah. And but when I fly fish, I don't wanna be in a boat.
Speaker 1:I wanna wade into the water. And one of the things you learn when you're a fly fisherman is you've gotta be able to read the water because ignorantly, you could think that the current is not that strong and then you're headed out to go retrieve a fly or get your line out of some trees or whatever, and all of sudden you're like, what have I done? I'm in the middle of a current. I feel I'm on slippery rocks underwater, and I feel the current taking my legs out from under me. And I think that that's our posture toward sexuality and our culture.
Speaker 1:There is a very strong current that is sweeping the great majority of people philosophically regarding what it teaches about sex. And sadly, the church has largely been silent other than don't have sex before marriage, which is a great message, but it's insufficient. It's not enough. And so this is our contribution to talk about to the young generation, more than just wait till marriage. Here's what's on the other side of marriage that you're waiting for.
Speaker 1:And then, number two, to maybe even a larger audience, here's what it looks like for it to be healthy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So good.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of unhealthy sexuality in relationships right now in marriages. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what I heard you saying is you're excited to combat the lies Yes. Am. Of the enemy and to show God's great design that so many of us miss if we're not looking for it. So, yeah, I mean, this is obviously such a sensitive topic.
Speaker 2:I mean, even as we sit here and talk about it, this is private. This is a personal topic.
Speaker 1:It's our private.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's our private topic. It's our personal life. It's, know, you if you're married, it's your
Speaker 1:personal We don't even enjoy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's not like we wanna talk about I mean, we do enjoy.
Speaker 1:Oh, wait. We enjoy. We enjoy.
Speaker 2:Okay. We enjoy. Too far, I set myself up for that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, took me by his right. Usually I'm the one who would Well, just go
Speaker 2:sounded like, okay.
Speaker 1:But you know, we don't enjoy like talking about it in a sense that this is a very private area even for us. Yeah. But I so much more am invested in
Speaker 2:Well, conquering the and it's because, I mean, firsthand we have witnessed people we love deeply. I know in my own life, my journey before Jesus got ahold of my heart, and so many people that we see in our church that I've counseled, wonderful people that have stepped into my office. There is a thread, back to that pattern, of sexuality outside God's design brings so much pain. Yeah. So much heartache, so much, and it's crazy.
Speaker 2:It's not limited to one type. Right. Or one specific area of sexual brokenness. It's all of it. It's like, it's either God's way or bust.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, a lot of times even in our culture, people like to highlight certain demographics, if you will, of sexual brokenness like
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, at least I'm not, hey, I may be having sex with my girlfriend, but at least I'm not same sex attracted.
Speaker 2:Right, at least I'm not same sex having same sex, At you least I'm not doing that. And we compartmentalize when all of it is not God's best for us. And God has a beautiful design and he wants us all to be on that beautiful And understanding, I think, I think maybe let's kick something off here. The concept that sex is a gift, not a right.
Speaker 1:This is earth shattering. Yeah. Okay? And sex is a gift, not a right. Probably that is the bedrock lie in our culture that has led to so much dysfunction that sex is a right.
Speaker 1:I feel something, who are you to tell me I shouldn't
Speaker 2:act
Speaker 1:on that feeling? Who are you to tell me that the way I love, what's the big phrase, love is love? The way I love, who are you to tell me that I can't love the way I wanna love? That all goes back to the bedrock of sex is a
Speaker 2:right. Right.
Speaker 1:People march to proclaim the way I feel like I wanna have love is my right. Sex is a right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. It's checked out. Where the reality is, once again, James chapter one, every good and perfect gift, every good and perfect thing is a gift from God. It's a gift.
Speaker 1:Father of lights.
Speaker 2:Yes. He is the father of lights. He's the father of creating sex. And so it's so powerful and I think we just get confused about it and we get it wrong. And it made me think of it early, early in our marriage.
Speaker 2:I don't know, tell me if you remember this. We were early in and there was just this one time, because sex is a journey for every
Speaker 1:I remember every single time,
Speaker 2:so Okay, go Not talking about
Speaker 1:the times. Every single
Speaker 2:No, no, but we're threading the needle here people, so hang with us. But you said to me, and it was regarding this topic in our marriage, just of sex in general, right? Because that's supposed to be, it is a part of a healthy marriage. And you said, you know, do you realize the power that you have over me? Do you remember this?
Speaker 1:I do. I do remember that.
Speaker 2:And it was a moment where the Lord
Speaker 1:Very vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And the Lord corrected.
Speaker 1:Corrected us both.
Speaker 2:Corrected us both.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you how it corrected me after we really processed that. It shouldn't have power over me like that. It's true. That is a very strong influence in a marriage. It is a, it can be a weapon in a marriage.
Speaker 1:But this is something maybe we'll dive into a little more in a second when we fully develop this. But big idea. When sex is a gift and not a right, then how could you ever be, now let me say it negatively. Let me say it the other way. If sex is a right and not a gift, how could you ever be happy if you're not having sex?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But the Christ follower, here's where I wanna aim you toward. This is I've talked to a lot of men about this. Yeah. I remember being at one of our men's conferences, and it was actually a getaway where we were at a retreat center. And we brought in a wonderful colleague and biblical counselor, and he said, guys, you can have a life if your wife is depriving you from sex.
Speaker 1:And that was just like, okay, I wanna hear more. Not that you had been, because you hadn't, but just the truth of that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And he began to unpack how, hey, that's broken, it's not right, there's injustice there, there's pain there, we could talk about that. But are you going to allow your happiness, and truly your happiness, okay, to be measured there? Some people have chronic pain. Are you just doomed not to be happy because you have chronic pain? Wow.
Speaker 1:Are you doomed to never be happy or have joy in the Lord? And his thing was, man, find your joy in the Lord. Yeah. And even when this relationship is broken and it's not functioning correctly, even dysfunctionally, find your joy in the Lord. What a truth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so powerful. And I remember the day that you said that to me.
Speaker 1:And if you can unpack that a little better than me, please do. Oh yeah. Like I'm kind of bouncing around with you.
Speaker 2:No, would tag team for sure. And I'm processing as we're even talking. But I remembered when that moment when you said that and I instantly felt a weight I wasn't capable of carrying.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:that began the conversation that I cannot have that kind of power in your life.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Because what happens when I disappoint you? What happens if it's not the way or the perfect time or whatever that might be, fill in the blank. And that can't just be about sex, that can be about a lot of things when it comes to marriage. If instead
Speaker 1:Communication, gift giving,
Speaker 2:Yeah, compliments, all the things, how we all fall short. Parenting. Parenting, yeah. And if I or of you, if I carry the kind of weight in my life where your happiness is dependent on me, that I have power over you, those are frightening words. Those are scary.
Speaker 2:You're a danger zone kind of word. So that was one thing. And we talked through that. It was very, very powerful. Those things you shared with me long ago when you heard that commentary about, you know, if you are in a marriage, which we'll talk about
Speaker 1:in No a pastor, it was Jeremy Lullock.
Speaker 2:Was it really?
Speaker 1:It was Jeremy Lullock.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, one of our dear colleagues, wonderful counselor, Jeremy Lellick, he leads Metroplex counseling. But yeah, what a great phrase that even in those situations, we have a greater God who is all powerful over our life. And so that's the first thing is I think anytime we place another person, and you are trying to do this, but in a position that only God can be in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, didn't understand that's what I was doing.
Speaker 2:The weight of it. Yeah, you had no idea the weight of that, but words matter. You and I both. Mean, this is one of our big beliefs. Words matter, and underneath the words, there's beliefs.
Speaker 2:And so I think one of the things that I still learned, but I learned in that moment, is not to take on the weight that you were shifting. Instead, we worked through that. But also to acknowledge, hey, the bible's true. And sex is a powerful gift. It's not just a gift.
Speaker 2:It's a powerful gift, and it's part of the inner woven elements to God's design in a marriage. There
Speaker 1:is a special power in sexuality. You just said it. It is a powerful gift. Yeah. And I wanna dip into your experience as a counselor for a moment.
Speaker 1:When you, you come across a lot of different things. You come across marriage, lack of communication, bad conflict resolution, but when it comes to sexual struggles, okay, as a counselor, would you say that that's a harder ball of yarn to untangle? Would you say that sexual trauma in your past is different than physical trauma? I mean, help just help me understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. I would say that when it comes to sex, sexual sin, sexual brokenness, certainly sexual abuse, that imagine, as you were saying that, I just imagined like a really glassy, smooth, clear lake. And then you take this big rock and you throw it in the in the water. Well, yes, you see the big splash of the incident, but then you watch the ripples that keep going on the water.
Speaker 2:And I believe that sometimes what happens to our soul, to our mind, to our well-being, and we don't even understand because it the ripples come in many different forms and many different packaging. They're not all they don't all look the same, although there are patterns. I would love to export to share talk about that. But just the pain. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Something was broken. Something was lost. Maybe it's feeling. Maybe it's feeling numb. Maybe no longer being able to enjoy something God's way because of the numbness that was left there by the pain.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's anger that rage is so deep that other relationships are being impacted and there's not an ability for closeness with other people. The breaking of trust. I mean, you could go on and on and on.
Speaker 1:Or your first experiences were broken experiences. Yeah. And they, it makes it very difficult for you to have normal experiences.
Speaker 2:Oh, for sure. Even things that can impact our brain. Yep. Physiologically, biologically, first experiences that we have, it's almost like it imprints on us. So if someone, and I've got a case study right now, thinking of a, this is a long, long time ago, and there was an individual who was struggling with attraction to six year old boys.
Speaker 2:And this person was young himself, but old enough to not be at all in that, I mean, that space. Well, he had been sexually abused.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so as we began to unpack the reality of how just
Speaker 1:because Thank God he sought help.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank God he sought help.
Speaker 2:Just because you feel these feelings, let's unpack why you feel these feelings. And when he understood that our bodies are created to enjoy sex and experience sex, by God. And so when our first experience in any way, shape, or form of the pleasure, even just physically, happens to us, we can easily associate it with whatever that experience was about. And so even in something as terrible for him as being sexually abused, that sexual abuse for him and for most people, you can't divorce the fact that your body's involved and was created to enjoy. And so it's very for those who have been abused.
Speaker 2:I mean, I just wanna say God sees you, loves you, and heals you as you run to him. But that can cause so much shame and confusion because why did I enjoy it? It must have been my fault. It must have been, I brought this on myself. And no, the truth is God created your body to enjoy sex, but it was created for a very specific environment of marriage with the opposite sex in the covenant of marriage.
Speaker 2:And so when that's abused, there's confusion. And if not healed correctly, all hurt and all pain and all wounds, if not healed correctly, leads to more brokenness. Yeah. Which is what that young man was potentially on the path toward until he began to seek the Lord.
Speaker 1:Well, and I would just like to take this moment to just say that if you have ex I mean, we just opened the door a heavy topic, and it just went there. And we don't wanna avoid that because this is real. And if you are someone that has experienced that kind of brokenness and you carry shame or confusion, or just hearing about that just puts a weight on you, I want you to know, man, I just would love to pray for you right now and just to have a moment. I feel led by the Lord. For anyone listening to this, that just hit them hard, to just have a moment.
Speaker 1:And so Susan, could you pray for us? You know, just, I think you, you've walked with so many who've had that pain.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whether it was from a family member or someone they knew or whatever. Yeah. Could you just pray for that person? Just look at them right now and just pray for them.
Speaker 2:Love to do that. Oh God, we come to you right now, we bring every part of our brokenness and we lay it at the foot of your cross, Lord. And I thank you that you tell us we can boldly come into your throne room, Father, with our needs and our pain. And God, pray for the person listening right now who maybe sexual abuse is part of their story and somewhere they were hurt deeply by this sin or by this someone doing this to them, God, and even just someone right now, just sexual discussion in general is such a place of pain. God, I am asking that you would heal them in this moment, that God, as they put their faith and trust in you, Jesus, that this would be another seed in the ground of their life to plant healing.
Speaker 2:You are Jehovah Rapha, the God who heals us. And I pray that this man or this woman listening, this student, whoever's listening to the sound of our voices right now, that God, they would place their hand in yours and trust you with the path towards healing and wholeness. There is nothing that you are not able to overcome. There is nothing that you cannot repair and restore. And so God, what happened in the past, God, it does not define us because you, oh God, define who we are and we thank you.
Speaker 2:So I just pray for that miracle in the name of Jesus over someone's life, amen.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's heavy.
Speaker 1:It is heavy. And we believe in the power of prayer. We believe in God using this for as many times as it's watched over and over and forwarded to others and sent to others. We believe that moment may really be a breakthrough for somebody.
Speaker 2:It really may be and since we're on this particular aspect Let's
Speaker 1:not say maybe, let's say it will be.
Speaker 2:Did I say maybe?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really may be.
Speaker 2:Oh, it will.
Speaker 1:It will be.
Speaker 2:That's right, declare it.
Speaker 1:Come on.
Speaker 2:Oh, it will be, thank you, words matter.
Speaker 1:Words matter.
Speaker 2:Words matter, so good. And while we're on this topic, I just, you know, this is something you and I've talked much about and it's something I've seen, again, a pattern over and over, is when it comes to precious people, maybe person you're listening right now to our conversation that have same sex attraction, that often, not always, but often there's very specific patterns that you can trace back to their past. Mhmm. And I'll give a couple of those patterns. One might be the pattern of sexual abuse.
Speaker 2:That is a big one. If you look statistically at people who have same sex attraction or in same sex relationships, often, somewhere, there's a history of abuse. It could have been a coach, could have been a choir director, it could have been a, sadly, someone in the church. It could have been so many different figures in their life. God bless.
Speaker 2:An older teen, you know, to a younger boy or a girl. These are just realities that I have seen and encountered, and I know that I'm not the only one. And that those things, again, like I said before, it's like an imprints on you. And that's your first experience or significant significant experience, and your body keeps score of that, has gone through that. And if not healed correctly, you assume, that's I'm gay too.
Speaker 2:I'm gay. And I I also think the second pattern I've seen is maybe not an abuse. It could be two people who both are willing, someone who is curious, someone who even alcohol is introduced or there's a substance introduced and not always though. And if your first or early experiences, you're having those same sex experiences, it can again cause your brain and cause your body and cause your mind to latch on and go, well, I must be gay. And so then you begin to step, take the next step and live that life out rather than saying, God, what's your plan for me?
Speaker 2:God, heal the areas of my life to be in with, you know, accordance to your will and plan.
Speaker 1:The power of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that we all have broken areas of our life. We all have areas that we say, okay, What I want does not align with what God says. Yeah. And you have a choice. You know?
Speaker 1:Do you, do you allow God to shape you, or do you try to shape God to you?
Speaker 2:That again.
Speaker 1:Do you allow God to shape you? And specifically, do you allow God's word to shape you, or are you trying to shape and reshape God's word for you. And, there've been attempts, and we could do a whole podcast on on same sex sex attraction. Yeah. Maybe we should.
Speaker 1:But there've been attempts, and really deal with this, there've been attempts to biblically show how it's okay. And it's weak, it's bad scholarship, it's just, it's bankrupt of integrity and a true reading of the word of God. It's just, it's frankly absurd. But with that said, our tone and our posture, this is where the local church is so powerful. We're not just speaking to you right now.
Speaker 1:We have a church. Yeah. And it's real. And we deal with people every week.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it has been our honor to walk with people who have trusted God even when they didn't feel it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It has been our honor, and it will continue to be our honor, when somebody says, I feel same sex attraction, but I am trusting God's way. I believe the rewards you will receive for obeying God and trusting him with your affections is substantial. And I believe God will give you a grace. And God will give you a reward. And we've seen that happen
Speaker 2:We at
Speaker 1:Keystone
Speaker 2:have. And that's why I think you said it earlier. It's not limited to a specific, or maybe we both did, a specific type of sexual brokenness. There is a whole cafeteria style, different options of how we break bad when it comes to God's gift of sex. And we've seen that play out in a couple that were living together and sleeping together before marriage, but really did wanna begin to follow God, and that was hard.
Speaker 1:I was gonna marry them. I think if we're talking about the same couple, we probably are because we love this couple, but they were living together, sleeping together, and I met with him and he said, I'd love for you to do my wedding. And I said, Well, here's how I can do your wedding, is you need to move out.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And you need a period of celibacy. I know you're a Christ follower because you've been baptized at Keystone, you found Jesus at Keystone, but you need to cut off that. And then if you have a period of fidelity with the Lord, I could stand with you at your altar and let's get your sex on the right side of your marriage. Yeah. And he told me later he walked away really mad at me.
Speaker 1:Like he was ticked. But I had a buddy with me pastor who loves him and he loves him, so he couldn't do anything because I was there, it was 2v1. No, I'm just kidding. I can handle up on my business.
Speaker 2:But anyway,
Speaker 1:no, the truth is though, he loves me, I love him, and, he did walk away ticked. But then the Lord got ahold of his heart. He moved out. Today they're married, they've got two kids, and he says to me, he says, Brandon, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow. And I
Speaker 1:told him this, didn't just say move out because that's what God wants. I said, Buddy, listen to me, she needs to know. First of all, it's God's design. But let me show you how God's design works. She needs to know that it's not just about sex.
Speaker 1:She needs to know that if she has chronic pain, that you have self control, and you're okay. She needs to know you love her and not just her body. She, and there needs to be a reordering of something spiritual in your marriage that really reassures. And so that's been powerful. Let's let's So good.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about some, for all families Yeah. All marriages, if you're young and you're engaged or you wanna be, here's the way you need to enter into it. Let's go positive. And I wanna talk about before you ever hit the bedroom. Sex starts before you ever get to the bedroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And for some, that may be a head scratcher comment, but why don't you tell us what that means?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, sex starts. Again, sex meaning if you want sex God's way, if you want the intimacy that it involves, I mean, it begins far beyond the bedroom. I would say it begins in the in the spaces in your heart, honestly. And then you hear the phrase sex starts in the kitchen, and I love that. It's like, okay, guys, get in there and help do those dishes and you're gonna warm her heart.
Speaker 2:You know, that's one example of-
Speaker 1:My dad. Yeah. It's just so uncomfortable. And again, I know this is gonna make people uncomfortable when we talk about this. But he would talk about, he went, again, at one of those men's events, he would tell the guys, Guys, I'd sleep the floor.
Speaker 1:I'd sweep the floor. Let me just say, it always worked out for me. Yeah. And I'm in the corner heaving and dry heaving, But all the guys really appreciated this man of God saying, hey. Sweep the floor.
Speaker 1:Sweep the floor, bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Love your wife, help, be a helper.
Speaker 2:Right. But I think, you know, before you can talk about what it looks like in your marriage, you've gotta understand what the design is. And there's several places in scripture that help us. And one is Malachi. I think it's chapter two.
Speaker 2:I think that I'd have to look and see. I need to Google it. But Malachi chapter two, he's talking about marriage, and he's actually talking about the tragedy of divorce. But the purpose, one of the purpose of marriage is to have children and to have a a heritage of children who will grow up to also love Jesus and love the things of God. And so honestly, procreation is a part of the goal.
Speaker 2:But then if you read the book of Song of Solomon and so many other scriptures, Song of Solomon is an entire book on the pleasures of sex between a husband and a wife. And so when you understand the design that it's for those pleasures, but it's also for the purpose of families growing, It helps you know, okay, this is why. And then I always tell couples sex is an act of worship.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And you're either worshiping yourself or you're worshiping the person that you're having sex with.
Speaker 1:Both wrong.
Speaker 2:Both wrong. Or you're worshiping the God who gave the great gift. And of course, many a, you know, client in my offices looked at me and said, so are we supposed to be singing and worshiping while
Speaker 1:we're That's deep waters.
Speaker 2:They are and it's intentional. I want it to be hard at first for them to even know what she's saying. Because then you have to understand the definition of worship, that in all that I do, I wanna honor God. And so even when it comes to sex, I wanna go in with a posture of thank you, Lord, and I wanna do this your way. And just by obeying God's way is an act of worship, and I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:So it's not it's not always a male, female. You know, males and females have different patterns of struggle, but it's not always absolute. But there can be many, I think there are more so cases where a wife has a less desire for sex the amount of times than a husband has desire for sex amount of times, like per week or I think that's
Speaker 1:still true but it's not
Speaker 2:It's not an absolute. Yeah, and typically I would say even just in my limited purview, it's been the majority of men who've desired more than women. And I've had a few cases where the woman was coming in very frustrated because the husband was not aroused by her. And so it isn't an absolute, but there is some leaning. And so when it comes to understanding that, if a person is genuinely wanting to understand and wanting to follow God, then there is a deep dive that has to happen with the with God himself and with his word.
Speaker 2:Or we default to just what I want and what I feel, and it's a very selfish approach to marriage. Well, you know what? I don't want to tonight, so we're not going to tonight. Rather exploring and saying, okay, it's not always about what I feel in this moment. I've told many a person, and again, often women, but many a person, just because you may not feel it that one night, faith it.
Speaker 2:It's not about fake it, f a k e. No. Faith it. Believe God that, you know what? As I honor the Lord with his design for sex and marriage, and as I love my husband in this case, as I love him, right, as the woman with her man, I am honoring God.
Speaker 2:And I'm telling you, so often you'll be surprised that God blesses that moment of intimacy. And as you got over the hurdle of your own emotions or whatever the barriers were, but it's for a bigger purpose. It's for, I'm gonna honor God. I'm gonna worship him. It's faith over what I feel.
Speaker 1:Wow. That's so good. And, you know, when it comes to that, there is God's design. I wanna read it, one Corinthians chapter seven. The husband should fulfill his wife's sexual needs.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's hot off the gate right there.
Speaker 2:Bible.
Speaker 1:So the apostle Paul decided to go to the men first. The husband should fulfill his wife's sexual needs. There's a lot of guys, they're not thinking at all about their wife's sexual needs.
Speaker 2:That they might be different.
Speaker 1:And the sexual needs, like we said, begins before the bedroom. How am I talking to you?
Speaker 2:Come on.
Speaker 1:Right? I mean, I've made the mistake where I've been harsh and then, but I can turn on a dime. You are more like us, a 18 wheeler, we gotta turn slowly, you know?
Speaker 2:I like that.
Speaker 1:And you know, like, but I can just, man, zero turn, you know? Seriously, and it's true though, right? They always say, you know, men are
Speaker 2:Women are microwave. Yeah, yeah. I like your 18 Wheeler. What are you like a Maserati?
Speaker 1:I'm a zero turn mower. Oh. You know, that is I can turn. Anyway, but the power here is that, A, the Bible is recognizing that women have sexual needs.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it often begins with affection. It's sex and romance. Yeah. And sometimes, again, not an absolute, as a man will, and this is, again, not an absolute, but often, as men desire sex, women desire affection.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now men desire affection too, and women desire sex, So you it's not an absolute. Right. But I have, just seen the power in my own life of tone, of my words, if we get in an argument, you know, just how to off ramp from that, how to resolve quickly, how to be sweet, how to cuddle, how to hold hands, how to be generous with words, all that's happening before. And then it says the wife should fulfill her husband's needs. The wife gives authority over her body to her husband.
Speaker 1:The husband gives authority over his body to his wife. Do not deprive each other of sexual relations unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time. So you can give yourselves more completely to prayer and afterward, come together again so Satan won't be able to tempt you because of your lack of self control. I say this as a concession, not a command, but I wish everyone were single just as I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So he's saying, if you wanna just be single, that's a concession, not a command. But, you know, as you said, talked about the husband's sexual needs. Right? You talked about the wife's needs of affection and and and and it again, it can like you said, we said a million times now, it can be husband or wife.
Speaker 2:But often a wife, you know, is the the prior examples. But husband's sexual needs. Okay. So it brought to my mind something that you and I heard from a preacher we enjoyed. I believe it was pastor Kim Witcher.
Speaker 2:We were at a conference. And okay, so I often said, as a rule of thumb, wives listen up and husbands too.
Speaker 1:And by the way, we'll do a whole podcast on women in ministry, men, women pastors
Speaker 2:all Yeah, for sure. As a general rule, I would tell couples, hey, If you are going longer than seven days without having sexual sexual connection with each other, flags should go up. Just of awareness. Hey. We're going too long here.
Speaker 2:We need to we need to come together. And would throw that out as, hey, that's a marker of, you know, a blinking red light.
Speaker 1:Seven days.
Speaker 2:Seven days. So then I hear her share, she had done deep research, biological research, and I would bitter it to try to repeat it, but I can tell you the things that I remember clearly. She did a deep physiological study on male, female, just the way God created our biology, our anatomy. And every three days, this is what I remember, the male anatomy resets from the last time that sexual intercourse happens. There's a reset that happens, and I'll let you fill in the blanks.
Speaker 2:I need to get her research one day. But it was a three day physical process, purely physical. And so after that three days, if there had not been sexual activity in those three days, there's a heightened desire. And the whole point is that she made,
Speaker 1:Somebody send her a box of chocolates.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'm just saying, God should
Speaker 1:She be just made the Christmas
Speaker 2:Pastor Sheila Gerald would say, you know, close the gap every night. Yeah. So I don't know who wins that race, but nonetheless, I think both these wonderful women are seeking God's design in marriage. And the reality about the physiological piece for me is that's created by God. That was created by God and how you as a man are wired, and that's different than how I have been wired.
Speaker 2:And rather than look at that and be like, well, that's not me, or resent that, or dismiss that, as a wife, but even more as a follower of Jesus, I'm like, okay, God, your design always leads to the best life. Your design always leads to abundance. And I'm so thankful that you, as my husband, would choose me to be the person that you have that intimacy with, that you have that desire and that drive. I think wives, if you can get to the place where rather than look at your husband, some of, I mean, of the wives I've seen and the broken marriages I've seen, there's a contempt there. There's even a disgust with some of the wives that I have witnessed.
Speaker 2:And there's always a lot of other things involved. But rather than allow that lie, I believe it's a lie from the enemy, to permeate our hearts, we're able to see God's beautiful design and be thankful that we have a spouse, a husband, who would want us to be that person in their life.
Speaker 1:So like a real practical way this could play out, and I wanna say what it's not, and then we'll say what it could What look it's not is a man demanding sex out of a sense of Christian obedience. That not a fulfillment of one Corinthians seven. One Corinthians starts with the man being sensitive to his wife's sexual needs and fulfilling them. But also, we see elsewhere in the Bible, live in a considerate way. You gotta live in a mindful way.
Speaker 1:We are called to be leaders. We're to die. You know, have the heart of Christ, the ethic of Christ who died for the bride. We are to have a spirit of death for the bride, death of our own agendas. So this objectifying your wife in the bedroom is possible.
Speaker 1:Wow. Lust inside marriage is possible where she is no longer your wife, your bride, your beauty, she is an object of your fulfillment. Wow. That is messed up. And we cannot be that way, men.
Speaker 1:We cannot be that way. We've got to be give first. And so the way that that looks like is, and I'll just be very transparent, where for me, one of the ways that I thread that needle is if you it's clear you're not up to it, you're tired, you know, something like that. And I kinda make a move or and that's always the hardest part is like, okay, how do I let them know I'm interested but not feel pressure? That's always one of those things.
Speaker 1:But if I'm kinda sending my signals and that kinda thing, and I could tell you're tired, you're willing because of what you just said, you wanna love me, you wanna faith me. One of the ways that the Lord showed me is for me to just, Baby, I'm fine, I'm good, I'm good, and smile, maybe kiss her on the forehead. Just let her know, You're fine. You know, Hey, let's let you get some rest, you know? And that would be an example of me trying to live in an understanding way, of me going, even if I really wanted it, my body, you know, was like wanting you, you know, whatever.
Speaker 1:Is that too much to you?
Speaker 2:No, I think this is important because I think we're not the only ones. And I think for me in certain situations, when maybe I am feeling tired or I am feeling like sometimes I don't feel well at late at night, like that's true, that there are times when I'm in that space or maybe I'm just not thinking about it, that I in those moments say, you know what? It's not about just me. It's not about what I just feel. I love this man and I love the God who gave us this gift of marriage, and I'm not going to follow what I feel in this moment.
Speaker 2:Again, it goes back to how I truly believe for all of you, all of us who will operate in that space, we will find ourselves experiencing a pleasure and a connection even if we started out maybe not being in the mood. And I think, when you talk about living in an understanding way as a husband to a wife, I think living in an understanding way of a wife to a husband is understanding the things we've just talked about, that physiologically even you've been created and made differently. And one of the ways to love you is to bless you, to fulfill those needs. And again, both of us knowing that ultimately God fulfills our needs, but he often uses people. And in marriage, he uses the spouse to fulfill so many needs, not just sexual, but so many beautiful needs are met through a spouse.
Speaker 2:And ultimately that works well when we understand God is ultimately the one meeting the need through that person. But I think a core thing I would say on both sides of this coin is am I going to be selfless in my marriage or am I going to be selfish? Because in the same way you talked about, you know, a man is not supposed to demand it from his wife. And I love that scripture because in both cases, I'm responsible for my behavior, not yours. I'm responsible to meet the needs of my husband.
Speaker 2:You're responsible to meet the needs of the wife. I am not responsible to force you to meet my needs, right? But in both of those cases, I'm responsible for my own. But when it comes to the wife, you know, it's the opposite. It can be the opposite side of that coin where it's not about demanding you to have more sex, but demanding you to back off.
Speaker 2:Demanding that, you know what? No. We're not doing that tonight. It's a culture of no. It's a culture of on my own terms.
Speaker 1:Culture of no.
Speaker 2:And God forbid that be a part of any marriage, that we don't that we begin Withholding. We begin to operate, you know, like just in selfishness. I've seen so many marriages destroyed by the withholding of sex in a marriage. And again, that can be men or women, but often that is the the weapon of choice for women in marriage is to withhold sex either because I'm angry, resentful, mad, disappointed, or because I'm lazy in my marriage. And I just think it's not that big of a deal to me, it shouldn't be a big deal to you.
Speaker 2:And that is a direct slap in the face of a God who says, guess what? Neither of you created this. I'm the one who created this. I have a design. I have a plan.
Speaker 1:So good. You know, it's complicated. This is a complicated area.
Speaker 2:We need part two, three, four,
Speaker 1:five. Know, there's so much more. You know, in the book Song of Songs, some people have tried to interpret that as nonsexual. It is a lot of sex in the book of Song of Solomon. Song of Songs, Song of Solomon, same book, named different ways by different people.
Speaker 1:But in that book, it talks about the generosity of sex. It talks about the protection of sex. It talks about the visual generosity of sex, and what I would say there is just, man, work with what you got, you know? Give each other the gifts that you have to give to one another and stretch yourself, push yourself to love one another. And men are very visual, and that's an area where no man should ever demand.
Speaker 1:And I would also be watch out for this men. I wanna speak to the men. Be careful that you're not taking something that you've seen in pornography and trying to impose it into your bedroom. The pornification of Christian marriage is brutal. That's lust inside of marriage where you're trying to, inside Christian marriage, copy something that you wrongly saw.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's broken and that's messed up. I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is enjoy one another. Yeah. You know, this should be a place of joy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so to the young generation that's watching, what I think is so important for you to hear is, yes, you are to wait until you're married to have sex, but on the other side of that, there is great joy. Yeah. It can be healthy. And for the, I've said this for years, our culture says when you're single, it's go, go, go, let's go, let's go, lots of sex, lots of sex, lots of sex, which is a lie too. And then once you get married, it's, I'm tired, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:But the Bible, it's actually exactly the opposite. It's when you're single, it's no, no, no. But once you get married, it's go, go, go. And let's explore it together. And if you're of the lie, another lie, if you're of the lie that would say, well, to try this out.
Speaker 2:Before we get married.
Speaker 1:Before we get married. We need to explore this out. I'd say you're robbing yourself of mutual exploration, mutual discovery. This is not a journey between you and your expectation of sex, because what created that expectation? Hollywood, books you've read, movies you've seen, wrong things you've seen, broken things you've seen.
Speaker 1:Those are bad expressions. You need to be able to express this just between you two.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is yours and it needs to be yours. And so that's what you have to look forward to without embarrassment, without shame, without comparison. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this is an ongoing conversation and we will repeat things we've said and we will say new things because this topic's not going away. But we would just close out by telling you that this is also an area that brings a lot of shame and a lot of hurt because of mistakes that many of us have made in our lives. And again, that prayer we prayed earlier, that applies to every last one of you and every last one of us that God is the God who restores as we run to him with all of our broken places, with all of our needs. Maybe right now you're in a marriage that is on the brink and sexual disconnect is definitely a part of what you're living in day in and day out, and you don't even know how to break the cycle of that disconnect. Jesus is the one who can break the cycles.
Speaker 2:Jesus is the one who can bring healing and help us follow his amazing way. So we just wanna encourage you today. We appreciate your time and listening in, and we pray that God just keeps blessing you through the overflow.
Speaker 1:Thanks again for tuning into the overflow, and we'll see you next time. We love you.