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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Say hello?
Hello.
Hey, Paul.
Hi, Tom.
Good morning.
Good morning.
How you doing?
I'm doing well.
We've, we just, I, I came over to Tom's
apartment today to record the episode
and we've been talking for about an
hour, just catching up on, on our lives.
It feels like both of us are maybe.
You know, in, in the down cycle
of our up and downs a little bit.
Yeah, I think that's right.
The, I wanted to actually ask you about
one of those sort of down cycle moments
we were talking about, which is this.
Last night I went to a poker game, which
is something I don't do very often, but I
have some friends who like to play poker.
And I'm kind of an amateur and
they're pretty good and usually
I've been able to hang with them.
But last night I showed up and lost all
my money in 45 minutes and walked home.
Yeah.
Very sadly, with my, with my
head down, which was a bummer.
I was surprised by how sad.
Yeah.
It made me and it, while I
was on that sad walk home.
This podcast has stuck with
me, I guess I thought, yeah.
What would Marcus Aurelius Oh, be
thinking right now if he had, if, if he
was looking at my life and I'm curious
what you think Marcus would think.
That is such a good question.
Okay, so what, so Marcus Aurelius.
I mean, there are a lot
of parallels, right?
You, like we've said this bef before,
you're essentially Marcus Aurelius because
he's a prick who corrects people on.
Yeah.
He corrects people grammar.
He kind of has everything, but
he still, you know, complains.
Yeah.
Right.
So do you think he ever
had a moment like that one?
That's a good question.
I guess I'm trying to, let's,
let's construct a more like, like
a, like an analogous situation.
Culturally relevant for him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well that was kind of my fear.
The, what I thought as I was walking
home is he would look at me and
say, you're being frivolous, right?
This is, who cares the well?
But he's pretty self-aware.
I feel like he, like in the first
chapter, you know, his gratitude, he talks
about, oh, don't get too caught up in
moralizing little sermons and, and don't,
you know, like he said, stuff, don't,
don't let the haters push you down or.
So I feel like he would kind of get it.
I would.
Okay, so maybe it's, it's this, he, he's
obviously a star student, just like you.
He's obviously insanely talented
and like at the top of his game.
But there was this you know, let's say
he, he was like, his, his, his Greek
professor had a, had a lesson and there
was someone else in that class who, who
like, just he, you know, Marcus raised his
hand and said an answer that was wrong.
And then the other.
Got it.
Right and you know, it was the
third time in a row and so Marcus
is walking home in the rain.
Yeah.
Thinking about that.
Right.
He probably would never walk home.
I mean, he would have like an entourage.
Yeah.
His chariot gets rain.
His chariot is Okay.
So what would he think?
I mean, I guess he would tell himself not
to get caught up in the frivolous things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think we got that advice
within the first chapter.
Right.
Just like specifically don't
get too drawn into games and
stuff because they're, yeah.
He talks about quail fighting.
Yeah.
There's a reason that statement
and he's like, don't get too
caught up in the quail fighting.
There must be a reason for him.
Yeah.
Putting that in the book.
So maybe he had these moments,
maybe he had must have where
he got into the gladiators or
the chariots or the whatever.
Yeah.
And then said, no, Marcus.
Yeah.
Rigged yourself of this.
Yeah.
Don't, don't.
Importance to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really, I mean, yeah.
He talks about not getting Yeah, yeah.
The, like backing the, the gladiator
wars or the chariot wars and yeah.
It's sort of funny to think about
for me because I, I guess, I think
the reason I had the reaction I did
last night was a feeling that this
thing I did playing in a poker game
is fully unconnected as I look at it
from any notion of duty or obligation.
Yeah.
It's just like a silly thing I was
doing, and then it made me sad.
Yeah, I think maybe sort of naively,
I have this feeling with Marcus that
everything he ever did was connected to
duty and obligation, and then anything
that wasn't connected to those things, he
just perceived as a total waste of time.
I feel like Marcus at a poker
game, right, would just be.
So aloof or like, yeah.
Is he, do you think this guy is capable
of having fun at all, basically?
I think that's part of,
no, I don't think so.
Yeah, I think he would just, yeah,
I think he would just go in and he
would play the game and he would talk
to people and then he would go home.
I think, like I think he would,
the mistake that mere mortals like
you and I make is that we get.
We have too much fun in the game.
Yeah.
We get, we attach, we start to
attach our self worth to it.
We, yeah, because I know, believe me,
I know that feeling you're describing.
Yeah.
Like even like tennis games where I
play the same person and then I lose
for three, three times in a row, I
feel, I like feel worse about myself.
For sure.
And so I think Marcus, yeah, you
would probably, I think there is the
puppy dog element where, you know,
Marcus, unconstrained Marcus at his
worst would probably act like you
and I and then Marcus at his best.
Would show up.
He's still the fucking emperor.
So like nobody's really
trying to beat him.
Yeah.
Yeah, maybe that's true too.
Maybe he never really lost
because people were yeah.
Making sure he got the right cards
or the right quail or whatever.
And I have a feeling that everyone
at a table with Marcus knows that
the goal of the game is not to win.
Right?
Like, this isn't a game
about winning poker.
It's certainly, certainly not to
make Marcus lose in 45 minutes
and then have to go home.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
So I wonder, Tom, like,
you know, at our sort of.
At the, at the climax of
our stoic potential here
that you could enter a room.
Yeah.
Wh where poker's being played, sit
down and just your presence, just your
demeanor could remind everyone that
there's more to life and that like,
basically there's some version of like,
you, you are just, you know, this is
just a game, like just your presence.
Like Yeah.
You can just, you can be having fun
and you can do the, you know, go
through the emotions, but like, Just
the fact that, you know, imagine
for example, if Obama came and sat
down at, at our poker table, right?
All of a sudden the game
is no longer about Yes.
Poker.
Yes, that's true.
Well, that's very interesting that
your example of stoic human being
in the modern day as Barack Obama.
Yeah, I think it's a pretty
good example actually.
Yeah.
Barack Obama, my reaction to that is,
I think you're right, is Marcus Aures?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, wow.
That is a, a hot take.
But I think, I think I like that.
You know what I mean?
But there is this element I think, I think
you are for, you are someone who can.
Walk into a room and all of a sudden
shift the dynamics of that room.
That's nice.
In a, in a meaningful way, in
a way that I think makes the
evening more fun and interesting.
Yeah.
It's like when, it's like, when a Yeah.
I think, you know that feeling
like, what if my wife joins mm-hmm.
Like a game that we're playing.
It's like all of a sudden it's
not about the game anymore.
Right.
In theory, sometimes I, I, I screw up.
It's not, sometimes I'm, I'm
weak and, and, and, and yeah.
But yeah, but in theory it should no
longer make it about winning that game.
Yeah.
I like that way of thinking about it.
That is not something that
occurred to me right away.
But yeah, that, that Marcus would look
at the game as not being about the
game or sort of be able to position.
In relation to the things
that he does care about.
Basically he's above it.
I mean, he's way too
smart for that, right?
Yeah, I, I mean, I, I guess we're, we're
really prescribing a lot of, a lot to this
guy, but Yeah, but I, I think that's okay.
We're kind of talking about this
guy in his ideal form or whatever.
I could imagine, I mean, there were
probably games at, at the Roman camps
where his legionaries were playing and
there was like, he would see it as part
of his duty to sit down and play around.
Yeah.
And, you know, and, and
partake to some degree.
Yeah.
And, and, and it did not matter, right?
If he won or like that was not the point.
Yeah.
The point was that here he was uhhuh
and he was sharing, you know, a
camp, a camp broom with his soldiers.
Do you think he did that?
I mean, we're just totally
speculating historically.
I can kind of imagine it either way.
Yeah.
He does seem like someone who
thinks possibly of himself
as better than the people.
Yeah.
The, you know, the, the members of the
room and empire or whatever, who would
not stoop to do that kind of thing?
It's a good question.
I, I think this is like, so if you don't
mind, I'm gonna take that and run with it.
So I, I think that that's like level two.
Level one is, is sort of the, the
Marcus that we're describing, which is
dutiful and just does his job and goes
back to his 10 and, and, and writes
in his journal, I think level two.
Marcus understands all those things
and then still is like, Nope, I'm
gonna like, part of my job is to
motivate the troops and do this thing.
And yeah, of course it's not about
winning this game of quail fighting,
but it, but I'm gonna partake because
it actually has these benefits
downstream and yeah, and maybe even it
lightens the mood a little bit for me.
Yeah, maybe even that he starts to
recognize that his, like, part of
his job is to maintain his own mood.
Yeah.
And, okay, so the reason I'm, I'm
sort of saying all this is because
obviously it does sound like
you're talking about your own life.
I am talking about my
own life a little bit.
I, I was talking about this this week
with my co-founder where I was, you know,
I, a lot of up, you know, the history of
the company as you hire more people, you,
I have felt less and less like I can be
myself at work and I can have fun at work.
Yeah.
You know, that's not my job.
My job is to, like, other people
can have fun because Yeah.
You know, they're not running the show.
Yeah.
And, and I, and I can't.
And, and I think that
that's level one Marcus.
Yeah.
And level two Marcus is no.
Like, recognize that there are times
where I can have fun and be myself.
Yeah.
And then can rely on other people to be
the adults in the room and they're happy
to do that job, you know, and, and give
back to the company in, in that way.
I don't have to be the one that.
Like I, it's, first of all, I think
it's a fallacy to think it's, it's
like a self defeatist fallacy to think
that I can't have fun and do this.
Like, you know, I really agree with that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I think that's, I
think if anything I would.
Worry more about a ceo Yeah.
Who is clearly exactly being kind of fake
and Exactly not themselves, because it
creates the sensation that they're hiding
something or that they're Exactly, yeah.
Can I trust this person?
So I was doing, I was worse at
my job back when I was trying
to be more rigid about it.
Yep.
I agree with that.
Yeah.
Whereas I, I, I actually res really
respect this about my co-founder.
I think has a better has a better
ability to just be himself in the office.
Mm-hmm.
And then of course he was humble
and turned it back around and said,
well, thank you for being the adult
in the room a lot of the time.
Yeah.
But I think, I think the reality is like
somewhere between, between those two.
Yeah.
Where, you know, he's found this way
to both be himself and do his job.
Yep.
Yeah, I think you are
perfectly capable of that too.
I'm trying.
I don't, I don't think that your real,
fun-loving personality is at all, at
odds with being a good leader or being
able to be the adult in the room.
I, I think it is perfectly possible
for you to find a place where you
both feel like yourself and feel
like you're doing your job well.
Well, you know, I mean, you, you know, the
very silly kind of personal side of of me.
Yeah.
You really think I could
bring that to work?
Like the really silly stuff.
Well, I mean, I, I think.
Because you see me on, you
know, we, we, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Basically, I think is my answer.
Mm-hmm.
Sort of calibrated appropriately, not
to some standard of professionalism, but
to the, the people who are in the room.
I think the answer is yes, basically.
Mm-hmm.
So there's a, there's a way, as long
as you are sort of mindful of who's,
who's around and that you're still being
considerate and not a jerk to them.
Not that I think you would be.
Yes.
I think is, is the answer basically.
And I, I, again, I think seeing a CEO
who's capable of being human and, you
know, silly and all that is done, done
correctly, really an inspiring, good thing
for employees and not, I don't think it
would be like, oh no, the illusion is
shattered and actually we're being run,
our company is being run by a silly man.
What will we do?
Well, it's not even that
the, the concern is more,
How do I put this?
Like this Is there, there is a
significance to the job of being the CEO
where you were like, if I'm not the CEO,
then I would much rather have a CEO who's
more serious, who's gonna do the job,
who's gonna like, give up their, you know,
some, like, make more sacrifices and,
and like, because there's only one per.
That's their job.
They, they have certain purview over parts
of the business that only they can Yeah.
Fix that.
That are really important.
And like, so I do think that there's
this elements of, like, the part of me
that, that, that doesn't want to allow
myself to be that way is you know, if,
if I make a joke about like layoffs or
pro promotions and like, oh shit, I.
Technically I have the power
to do all those things, so Yes.
You know, I can't do, I
can't make jokes like that.
Which, which was a mistake
I made early, early on.
I remember, I, like jokingly said
that we should all get big promotions.
Yeah.
After, you know, after we raised our seed
round, and like I realized one of the
people in that group took that extremely
seriously and was very upset when the,
you know, the promotion wasn't as big as
sort of, I, my joke made it sound like.
So, yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
So I do think there are specific areas
that you should avoid humor wise.
Yes.
But in general, I think, I don't think
there's that tension between you being
yourself and you seeming like a person
who is willing to make the sacrifices
necessary to do a good job as the ceo.
And yes, it's not funny for you
to joke about layoffs or big
promotions that or, or whatever.
Yeah.
But you can still be yourself
and not do those things.
You feel like you're fully yourself at.
Well, all of us are a little bit
more buttoned up and professional,
but I'm pretty close to myself.
I think you're pretty, I think you're
able to just be yourself every,
are you, is there anywhere where
you're not like kind of yourself to?
Well yeah, that's an interesting question.
I don't really know how to answer that.
Ooh.
Maybe in some certain relationships,
it's either in all of my
relationships or none of them.
I think it's like, I, I think with
everybody, with every relationship
you have, you're a slightly
different side of yourself.
Hmm.
Or at least that's true for me.
That's something I admire
that, that Marcus talks about.
He really admires this cons, this quality
in some of his mentors in the first
book, this constancy that they have about
being the same person with everyone.
Yeah.
I, that's something I aspire to
too, and I, I'm not sure that it's
always something I'm successful at.
But I think that's also pretty normal
in that we all, you know, for instance,
between the two of us, we are a,
we are more fully fledged versions
of ourselves, and then with people
whom we don't know as well, or in
a professional environment, yeah.
We draw back a little bit and we don't
show our whole selves because that's
the sort of normal human reaction.
Yeah.
To, to be a little averse
to that kind of risk.
You know, as you say that, I'll make
the counterargument to what I just said.
I'll, I'll contradict myself, which.
There is knowing you in, in,
in real life, and sorry to the
listener, this is like, we're very
personal, whatever, but that's fine.
Yeah.
We'll see if we get to
mark as aureus this.
Yeah.
Who knows?
It might not.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It might just be Tom.
And this is Tom and Paul talk about
their feelings and they, every 15
minutes they mention Mark loosely themed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You so I remember, so I've known
you since, you know, since, since,
since we were in middle school.
I remember this feeling towards
the end of high school and, and
like college where I was like,
wow, Tom is a really good leader.
Mm-hmm.
Tom can like, organize, create
clarity, create this sense of like
safety and, and and, and just like
alignment in a group really effectively.
I remember seeing that in certain groups
that you were in, where you were clearly
like, this, this, you know, what's the
expression like, You were both yourself
and well, I think there was an element
where you were maybe playing the role
a little bit and maybe a little bit
less like the kind part of yours or
like the very like thoughtful and kind
part of yourself, but there were part,
there, you were a very effective like
I'm thinking of like the camping trip
or like certain times where I felt like,
oh wow, Tom is driving this and I'm I'm
a, you know, I'm a passenger and I Yeah.
So I remember that is a little, that
is a different part of your personality
than what you're bringing to work today.
Yeah.
Where your role, I mean, you're
just, you're not in a position
where that's required of you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I do wonder if, how
do you feel about that?
I, first of all, do you
recognize what I'm Yes.
Saying?
Yep.
Definitely.
Yeah.
I think that is something I, I value
about myself and it is something that I.
More experience within the
past that that is a part.
Even when I was teaching, for instance,
there is an aspect of leadership to
teaching that I was pretty good at too.
Yeah.
I could command a classroom and get us
on, get people to do what I wanted them
to do and that kind of thing pretty well.
And that's a skill I have that
I think isn't getting used.
It's not getting used right now.
And that's okay.
You're, I mean, all of us are talented
and complicated beings who don't use all
their skills in, in every job they have.
Yeah.
That's all right.
I.
I anticipate in the future I
will have jobs where that skill
gets to shine a little bit more.
You enjoy that, right?
Yeah, definitely.
Because I think you're, I,
I've seen you at your most, you
seem to be having a lot of fun.
Totally.
Yeah.
When you were doing that.
No.
Yeah.
I, I definitely do enjoy
that kind of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's commendable that you're able to
have that attitude about it, that like
not all jobs require this at all times.
And Yeah, I think that
that's nice of you to say, I.
Yeah.
I mean maybe it that comes from a sense
of self-confidence or something, but
yeah, I have plenty of talents to bring
that do make me good at my current job.
And I happen to have
some leftover ones too.
Yeah.
That is self-confidence.
Yeah, because I can't, I've sort
of realized about myself that
I'm not, I have a hard time being
happy when I'm not using all your.
Yeah.
Or like, that's tough.
That's a tall order buddy.
I hope you realize that.
Yeah, I know.
That's why I'm stuck in this job.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, but I, well, that's what
I'm trying to overcome, basically.
Yeah.
Is what I'm saying.
Okay.
Okay.
So let me turn that on you a little bit.
Which of your skills do you feel
like you're not getting to use right
now that that's making you unhappy?
Probably, maybe lots of them.
Are there specific ones that come to mind?
No.
So actually.
I'm kind of getting to use all my skills.
Okay.
Right now it's not, it's not that.
It's, oh, it's just general.
You know, I'm, I always find something
to complain about and you know,
it's just like, oh shoot, I'm in
this position where I'm using all
my skills, but so much, oh crap.
Now so much depends on me.
And I'm like, boy, what I like to Yeah.
Have, so that's a bit of a
aggressive, greener kind thing.
Yeah, it's a grasses greener thing.
I have nothing to really
complain about, but I see.
But I do think that, I hope that
having scratched this itch, yeah, I
will be, I will reach out solution and
become able to then go to a position
where I can put my energy somewhere
else other than my job and, and
very sort of aggressively say, okay.
I don't need to do
everything in this role.
Like I can do nine to five and I can
be like, stretch these parts of my
personality and just save the other parts.
Yeah.
I, to me the fact that you think
in these terms already and can
see yourself as clearly as you do
means you're gonna be able to do
basically like the fact that you're.
Sort of like your metacognition
or whatever is, is on that
level means it's gonna be fine.
Basically, I wanna be
a clown in my next job.
I just wanna be the guy
who's fun and like witty and
knowledgeable, but not responsible.
Yeah.
Yep.
That's what, that's my goal.
I think, and I'll get frustrated
with that pretty quick, but still.
Yeah.
Well, I guess, yeah, my.
For you or, well, I don't know if it's
advice, but my perspective on anybody
who says something like, I want to
be like this other person in my next
job is, you're never gonna do it
because you already are who you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you can try to be some version
of that person, but what you're
gonna be is some version of yourself
actually trying to be that person.
Yeah.
And that could be a fun
version exercise of you.
Yeah.
But don't get too attached to the specific
idea of who you want to be, I think,
because you, you kind of are who you are.
Yeah.
Can I tell my little dinner story?
I feel like it's irrelevant
to being who you are and Sure.
And having fun in a
professional context and Sure.
And which is I guess where we're going.
Yeah.
Off of the segue of Marcus.
Yeah.
Thanks Marcus.
Yeah.
So last week there was a clerical
era and I was invited to a dinner.
I really shouldn't have been
invited to this, this dinner story.
Yes.
Okay.
It's technically not, well,
we don't know that this was a
clerical error, but Go ahead.
It was definitely, you're, you're being.
So it was a dinner with a bunch of
highfalutin tech people, you know, CEOs
of Fortune 500 companies, and, you know,
hi, you know, fancy people basically.
That, that I had no business attending.
I, I don't think, no, I'm, I'm serious.
I'm not being humble.
Like, I think that they,
someone dropped out.
I think they had a list.
They probably were halfway down
the list and, and there I was
and they probably forgot that our
stage of company or something.
Anyway, so I was there and.
And I had this moment
where I was like, okay.
Well, yeah, I guess what would
Marcus do in that situation?
Is there any, this seems like
a, a situation he genuinely
never would've encountered.
Yeah.
Cuz he would, he would've never,
always would've been the most
important person in the room.
Right.
Maybe before he was selected Byn,
when seven years old or something.
He maybe could have That's true.
A moment.
Like That's true.
True.
Yeah.
That's true.
But, but I, I, I.
I think what Marcus would've done if
he had been in that situation, like
imagine he, the, the, I don't know,
the emperor of China and the, you
know, like people who have more more
expansive empires than the Roman Empire
were invited to a dinner party in Sure.
In, you know, 280.
So I think you would just hold your head
high and you would just, You know, not be
intimidated by anyone and just be yourself
and, you know, and not, not be obnoxious.
Like you're not trying to be
anyone other than yourself.
Yeah.
And so that's what I did, and I
had way more fun than I expected.
Wow.
Okay.
That's great.
I just, yeah, I just made, you know,
I, I wasn't trying to impress anyone.
I ended up just Talking for hours
with the, with the former CEO O of
Twitter about just random things.
Insane and insane.
Yeah.
And just, and it wasn't, I wasn't,
you know, at, I wasn't trying to
say anything that I thought, I
wasn't trying to people please.
Right.
I wasn't trying to be like, you
know, only talk about myself either.
But I was, it was just a very kind
of, It was a very freeing, because
I do have a tendency to, in those
situations, to try to people please.
Yeah.
So I was, it was very
freeing to not be that way.
What do you think was so liberating
about that particular event by
comparison to the ones where you do try
to people please or, or whatever else?
Well, I, that's where it
ties back to stoicism.
It was that I, I felt like
the stakes were really.
I wasn't trying to raise money.
Right.
I wasn't trying to, you know, like
I wasn't worried about anything.
And that's because this felt
like a clerical error that
you were invited at all.
Is that, is that why you,
you think you felt that way?
I think it's because like serendipity.
Yeah.
Before I started, before I
walked in the door, I had
already made a pact with myself.
Yeah.
I see where I was, where I said
to myself that like, none of
these people know who you are.
They think just because you're
here and you look super.
And you're wearing, you know, a
sweater instead of a buttoned up shirt.
Everyone was wearing buttoned
up shirts, by the way.
Yes.
Yeah.
Genius must mean that
I'm the, the kid genius.
Yeah.
And they need to bow down to me.
Right.
And so I sort of like, I sort of, that
I, you know, I had that sort of, Re
realization that they don't really
know who I am anyway, so who cares.
Yeah.
And they also don't care, right?
Like I think there's a point
at which you also don't, yeah.
If you're a CEO of Fortune 500 company,
this, some kid is invited, you're
like, oh, I'm gonna talk to this kid.
I don't wanna talk to my boring,
you know, competitive peers.
This, this asshole who got the
CEO job in this other at Google,
and I don't want to Yeah, exactly.
So, so I was just like, okay.
I'm like, I'm gonna have fun.
They're gonna have fun.
And that's fine.
That's great.
I mean, that sounds like the perfect
way to respond to that kind of moment.
And I guess I would invite you
to say, I should, how can you
feel, how can you approach every
day at work feeling like that?
That's what I'm trying to,
that's what I'm gonna try to do.
Okay.
Yeah.
I, which is funny because yeah,
you're right that like the way
Marcus writes his journal, he sure
doesn't sound like he's doing.
Yeah, I agree.
He's, he seems like he
would be boring at a party.
Yes, I agree.
And also very conscious of
the stakes of everything.
Yes.
That he was doing.
Yes.
His duty in a way that
would make him not fun.
Whereas I sort of, I like, I was at
this table with 20 other, you know,
High fluent CEOs and I would just, I
talked like way more than my share.
I, I had a lot of opinions to share.
Yeah.
You know, I, and I thought my
opinions were pretty interesting
and everyone sat and listened.
I would've loved to have been a.
A transcript of this dinner I think is
something I would really have fun with.
Like authentically.
I thought my, my, my I, I'm not
saying that as like a, yeah.
I actually thought I had some
interesting things to say.
Well, it feels like a scenario where
you kind of had a little bit of the
voice of Marcus Aurelius in your head.
Yeah.
And it served you very well in this Yeah.
At this particular dinner.
Cause it actually sounds like it about
as well as it could have possibly gone.
You.
Yeah.
Which is great.
Yeah.
I think, yeah.
So it's an example maybe of learning
a little, well, I don't know if we
learned it from him, but a place where
we recognize that this philosophy
has something to say for itself.
Yeah.
It's, it's almost, there is this
element where maybe everyone looks
at stoicism and just like turns it
into whatever they want it to be.
Yeah.
Yep.
But I think we're definitely
guilty of that a little bit.
Yeah, we're definitely, and we're
gonna keep doing that for the record.
Yeah.
That is, you know, we're not clarifying.
Yeah, no fact, fact checking anything.
But yeah, it was kind of
a freeing moment for me.
And I'm gonna tie it back to socialism.
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
I like that.
I think that's a good example.
Yeah.
Cool.
Cool.
Are we done with Paul and Tom story hour?
Should we, should we?
I think so.
Anything else in your week that, you
know, you walking back from the poker
game, that is definitely the moment
where, Marcus appeared in my mind.
From what did you do?
What was the action you took like to,
to sort of make yourself feel better?
Well, one thing I did is I walked
home from this game that was like
two and a half miles away because
walking by myself, Especially a long
walk like that is pretty nice for me.
So that is kind of what I did.
I could have taken an Uber but walked for
an hour through San Francisco instead.
Wow.
Which was, which was nice.
Yeah.
That definitely helps me
kind of clear my head Yeah.
A little bit.
Sure.
After something like that.
Sure.
So that, is that stoic?
That's an interesting question.
He hasn't probably not.
So I guess the other thing that I
thought about a little bit was like,
it's kind of cliche, but the, the sort
of like, you have to have nights like
this for the nights that Mm, that feel
good, that feel good, that be fun.
That's a great thought.
That's a great thought.
It's like, yeah, it, I think it's right,
but it is also a little cliche and boring.
But I was like, as I was walking home,
it's like, oh, you know, there's a way,
there's a very like mature way to look.
Sort of detached way to look at
this, which is, this is delicious.
This sadness is like, yeah, perfect.
Because it means when things
go well, I know like, yeah, it.
The what I'm avoiding, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's like that little it's like a
level on a video game that's like just
the right level of challenge, you know?
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
And, and, and in any good movie, there
has to be a point where Yeah, exactly.
Things aren't going well.
Not that this is like
matters at all, but yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah.
No, I like that way of framing it too.
Yeah.
This is the part of the movie where
the world is unfair and I'm getting
beaten down Uhhuh, but it has to happen
that way for it to be a good movie.
Otherwise, the movie sucks.
Right.
So, right.
Yes.
I agree.
I think there's, yeah, that
occurred to me as I walked home.
Mm-hmm.
Too, and.
It's a tricky question whether or
not that makes you feel better in
the moment, because it kind of does.
Yeah.
But also that's sort of a cheat.
If you can really, if you, if really
that makes you feel better, then
you're not feeling the sadness
that you're claiming to value.
Yeah.
And the cheat.
The cheat is that if you feel that
way when you're sad, you have to
also feel that way when you're happy.
Yes.
Which I certainly don't really.
Yeah, I don't.
But you don't, I think.
I do, I'm constantly like the, the
motto of like the king who had this
two shell pass on his ring or whatever.
Isn't that, I think that's very stoic.
I mean, that is like, the definition
of it is being able to sort of,
but you, you like detach yourself
from moments both good and bad.
I think the, there's a very
human, human normal part of me
that when I win, no, that's true.
That's true.
I have won at this game too.
I'm fucking pumped and I'm definitely
not thinking, oh, this too shall pass.
Really?
But you don't actively have that voice
in your head that's like, calm down, Tom.
Like I No, that's, that's true.
I, I do, I'd certainly, I mean, I
think if I didn't, I would be like
some sort of addict or something.
Right.
You'd be like, as soon as you've
got a taste of it, you'd be
like, holy shit, this is great.
And that's how genius I could
keep doing this forever.
Yeah.
So, no, of course I have a voice in
my head that says this is a product of
variance, and how strong is that voice?
Enough that I only play poker
every six months, even when I win.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so I, I think it's, I think
it's a pretty strong voice, so I think
you, I think you do practice both
sides of the, of the sword there.
Yeah.
That side of it, I guess
maybe lingers more in the
subconscious or something for me.
Mm-hmm.
There, it takes more conscious thinking
for me in the sad moment to be like,
let's appreciate this moment too.
Whereas the appreciation for
the the good moment is easy.
Interesting.
And there's a lot of sort of modern
psych advice out there that's like,
no, no, let yourself feel the thing.
Yeah.
Which is the opposite of it, which is
kind of trying to push back against this
stoic philosophy where it says, no, when
you're happy, feel happy, go celebrate.
Yeah.
And when you're sad, feel that sadness,
which I do that sometimes I wonder if
you have that experience where I, I have
a sad moment, and I'm like, I kind of,
it's almost like a joke where I tell.
Be maximally set.
Yeah.
Double down on the sentence.
Double down on how terrible this is and
how poor and, and unfortunate you are.
I think that's, well, I mean, there's
a way to take it too far about, mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Make yourself miserable.
But I agree with that and I don't
think that's at odds with, to
me, that's not at odds with the
philosophy we're talking about here.
I think part of the thought I was having
as I walk home from poker last night,
Sad moments like this are re required.
Mm-hmm.
Cuz they make the fruit
sweeter is relishing.
Yeah.
But it, yeah, it is saying, feel
this because feeling this and
not pushing it away is what makes
the, the good stuff feel good.
Mm-hmm.
So I believe in that.
I guess that that idea of.
Feel the, the happy
stuff and the sad stuff.
And also just because I kind of
think that's like what life is.
Like if you're just, if a, a philosophy
that is truly about keep all emotions
at arm's length and just try to keep
yourself as stable as possible, seems
like a total denial of like mm-hmm.
Life and its both pleasure and challenge,
but the whole sort of, yeah, up and down.
That is kind of, I, I think when people
use the word stoic in casual English
conversation, that is kind of what
they mean though, is like a mm-hmm.
A keeping of emotion at arm's length.
Mm-hmm.
And I think what I've been pleasantly
surprised by in our first two readings
true, is that that seems not to really
be, at least to my reading, consistent
with, with what we see in this text.
True.
I.
Yeah.
Well, speaking of this text,
should we read at least a, why
don't we read from this text?
Let's read a couple paragraphs.
Okay, cool.
Let's do it.
I have the book this time, so Wow.
We are making huge steps forward.
Yep.
In the organizational
capacity of this podcast.
So yes, Paul has the book,
so I will have to do less.
Repeating myself after.
I'm sure the listener loved that.
I'm sure they loved the fact
that I kept, say that word again.
Yeah.
Wait, what was the middle part of that?
Yeah, just, yeah, there's the barrier
of my ability, my listening abilities.
Not anymore.
Okay.
So the place we left off was in the
second book, which is entitled On the
River Grande among the Kuai, which
so far we have learned absolutely
nothing about what any of those words.
And this is also a bulleted
list, and we got through number
seven in our last episode.
So we were picking up with number eight.
Fantastic.
You know, and before you get started, yes.
One piece of feedback I've received Yes.
From our listeners, a
dedicated listener, my mother.
Yeah.
Is that our commentary is
more fun than the text.
Oh, really?
She does.
That was her, that was her opinion.
I am her son.
Yeah.
But that was her opinion interest.
And I propose Okay, go ahead.
Yeah.
I propose that we take more stops,
enjoy the conversation and read less.
If, if we're, if we're ha if we have
interesting things to say, say them.
Cool.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think we've done a great job of not
reading the text so far in this episode,
and I think we can keep that up.
You're welcome, mom.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for, for
your, for your feedback.
She says we're great, by the way.
Okay.
That's very sweet of her.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Nice to.
Our listener base growing already here.
Right.
She hasn't liked the podcast yet.
I'll try to get her to do that.
Okay.
Yeah, she could be our
first subscribe, ideally.
Yes.
That would be.
Yeah.
Well, who knows, maybe we
already have other subscribers.
We haven't.
I haven't checked them.
I don't think so.
Apple Podcast.
Probably not.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we will read these bullet points
and really enjoy and savor mm-hmm.
Them.
And if we get caught
on tangents, terrific.
So be it.
Okay, cool.
This one's short number.
Ignoring what goes on
in other people's souls.
No one ever came to grief that way, but
if you won't keep track of what your own
soul's doing, how can you not be unhappy?
That's a weird, the first
sentence is weird to me.
Wow.
I don't think I agree with the first
sentence, but maybe I don't understand it.
That was my reaction as well.
Ignoring what goes on in other people's.
Isn't it fulfilling to think about other
people and empathize, empathize with them?
I guess maybe the emphasis
is on the word souls here.
Like I think this is a sort of morality.
Yeah, exactly.
So I interpret this as sort of similar
to a Christian sense of like, don't
Yeah, don't moralizing little sermons.
Yeah, exactly.
Don't tell other, don't worry if
other people are being immoral or not.
That's cool.
Just, just worry about what's
the contents of your own soul.
Yes.
That makes sense.
The second sentence seems like a
total truism, like how could anyone
disagree with the notion that
keeping track of what's in their
own soul is required for happiness?
I, I, yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah.
It's phrase in a weird, double negative.
Yes.
I think it's, I would've contended that
this is phrased in a triple negative.
If you won't keep track,
how can you not be unhappy?
Right.
Okay.
Triple negative.
Yeah.
The classic triple negative.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I gu I guess we don't
have much to say on this.
Yeah.
My reaction is uhhuh.
All right.
Sorry, mom.
Moving on.
Yep.
All right.
Number nine.
Don't ever forget these things, the
nature of the world, my nature, how I
relate to the world, what proportion
of it I make up, that you are part of
nature and no one can prevent you from
speaking and acting in harmony with it.
I, I like number bullet point number four,
what proportion of it I pick up Sure.
Is, is nicely phrased.
I think although it's, I mean
this, there's some redundancy I
think in the list, but yeah, sure.
I think this is also kind of sensible,
but somewhat obvious feeling advice
to me of, yeah, remember that you
are a small thing in the world.
Yeah.
You know, this, this reads to
me like, you know, one of those.
Religious like, or like
a chakra or something.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Where you just, yep.
You just repeat this to yourself every
morning and different parts of it
stand out to you depending on what's
happening in your life at that time.
Yep.
You know, so, so on a day where you, you
know, this whole, this conversation we
had about you know, I'm kind of a silly
person and I like to be silly, like Yeah.
It's that, and on a day like
that you might, the line too, my
nature would stand out to you.
On a day where just things are,
like, the world is, you know,
feels like it's falling apart.
It's the nature of the world.
Yeah.
So it, it might just not be, it
might be written to be repeated.
Mm-hmm.
And not to be like, ingested just once.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree with that.
And I think the way it's introduced
as don't ever forget these
things, kind of implies a sort
of like, return to these ideas.
Tom, if you were an editor here of,
of, of this text I don't know, would
you change any, any of these lines?
Would you add.
I think number three and four, how I
relate to the world and what proportion of
it I make up to, I react pretty similarly,
I guess, to those two bullet points.
Mm-hmm.
So cut one out and editor's.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pen might go through one of them.
Boy, an editor's pen would
be kind of rough on this
text to some, to some extent.
He repeats himself a lot.
Yes, that's true.
Yeah.
I.
Yeah, because it's a good point, and
it's something that we've kind of kept
coming back to about what is actually
the purpose of this text to begin with.
Yeah.
And I, I think avoiding
redundancy is not one of the
purposes of this text, basically.
Yeah.
And I think it is something
more like it's almost, you're
saying it's something to revisit.
Yeah.
With intentional redundancy.
Because if you revisit it over and
over again, you get some of these ideas
drilled into your mind, which is maybe.
He wants the line.
The one line that's very, that's
surprising to me is that you are part of
nature and no one can prevent you from
speaking and acting in harmony with it.
Always.
Yeah.
I I Is that true?
I think lots of people can prevent
you from, I mean, you could
just disobey the law and Yeah.
So that's an interesting question.
What do you think he meant?
No one can prevent you from
speaking and acting in harmony with
nature so that you are part of.
So by the way, so I think he,
whenever he says nature, he means,
he doesn't mean like trees, he
means just how the world works.
Yes.
I society, you can kind of like
substitute the word society.
I think it's a little more
even broad than society though.
It's like what the gods have created.
Sure.
Including both society, but
also the way humans relate to.
The earth or whatever too.
Right.
So maybe the world.
So you are part of the world and no
one can prevent you from speaking
and acting in harmony with it.
Yeah.
He has a sort of like this, this
notion of acting in accordance with
the way of the world and of nature.
That is I think, a little vague to us.
Mm-hmm.
But I think my reaction to that
is something, He thinks that
sort of fulfilling your duties
or acting as you should mm-hmm.
Is acting in accordance with nature.
And what he's saying is you always
have the choice to sort of do the
right thing or act in accordance
with the way of the world, even
if somebody is telling you not to.
Okay.
It's kind of like a, this is striking
me as a sort of Christian notion
too, of like, you can let others do
wrong to you and not cheat yourself.
You can still.
In accordance with the ways of the world.
Okay.
Even if it means suffering or whatever.
Okay?
I see this as like, okay, the rules
of the Legion are, if anyone turns
their back, then you have to decimate
that part of the legion, right?
Kill one in 10.
And that's the rule.
That's if, if we, if I as the
emperor did not uphold that rule,
then I would be going against
the nature of my position in.
World.
And even though I know the men in that
legion and I know their families, I still
have to, you know, I have to execute them.
That's interesting.
I mean, that's a, that's like a very
specific like moral question that I
think, interestingly to me, Marcus
leaves a lot of these like Yeah.
The details of that
kind of moral decision.
I wish he was more
details or kind of blank.
Yeah, yeah.
If he doesn't actually.
It, it's interesting that it's
almost assumed by this text that
the, the reader has a common sense
of morality in how you make moral
decisions because he's writing himself.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess so.
And this, the kind of stuff that
ends up in meditations is like a
step more general or meta than that.
Mm-hmm.
And it's, it's like given that you
are operating according to the moral
compass, that does not need to mm-hmm.
Be described here.
Mm-hmm.
No.
Re remind yourself that no one.
Prevent you from speaking and
acting in harmony with nature.
Yeah.
I think if I was an editor of this
text, I would do a lot of like Dash,
please give example, which is the
feedback I hate most on my writing.
When people tell me to give an
example, I always get frustrated
cause I'm like, oh, come on.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
But people don't, yeah.
It turns out.
That's interesting because Marcus
certainly writes a lot about the
dangers of pontificating and writing
too abstractly or theoretically.
Yeah.
And here he is.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's an interesting question
whether or not we consider this sort
of theoretical, I think he sees it
as practical, but very general or
something advice, which is maybe
he just, he's gotta be thinking
of a thing as he's writing this.
He's gotta be thinking of a very
specific set of two or three
things that just happened to him.
Yeah.
And we justt know what they are.
They're, but the reactions he has
to them are so general abstract.
Yeah.
I agree with you.
And, and so it really, I think
what, like one way of reading this.
This is a guy who has Yes.
Obviously lots of specific,
difficult stuff happened to him.
And then he goes through this meditation
process where he extracts the most
abstract juice lesson from it.
Yeah.
That he can possibly, he just,
and and that's there's up
four levels of abstraction.
Yeah.
And then that's what we get.
And he writes that down and then
he says, ah, my work here is done.
And then moves on to the next thing
and we're left to collect the pieces.
Yeah.
So we get this like refraction
of a refraction of a refraction
of an experience that he had.
Yeah.
Which has kind of cool.
Not, not certainly.
Yeah.
He has, and that's why we can
turn it into whatever we want.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's almost like he's taking the
editor's advice that you dislike,
getting so much uhhuh and said,
how can I violate this e match
as, as badly as I possibly can?
What would that text look like?
And I think this is roughly what
that text Yeah, would look like.
A, a text with lots of
ideas and truly no examples.
Oh, here comes an example.
All right.
Let's see.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Well, great.
An example that we won't
know anything about.
Break this up so that we can comment.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'll read this one sentence at a
time and then we'll just sounds good.
We'll, we'll, I'll say Sounds good, and
then you can move on to the next one.
Okay, great.
Number 10, in comparing sins the
way people do, Theo Fraus says that
the ones committed out of desire
are worse than the ones committed
out of anger, which is a good.
I in compare i in comparing your own sins
or this, your sins to other people's sins?
I just comparing sins.
I, I would think both.
Okay.
Unfortunately, this wasn't the specific
example I was hoping it would be.
He names a person.
Yeah, I agree.
A guy we don't know anything about.
Okay.
So, so sins committed out of desire
or worse than sins committed out.
Or I, okay.
I can, I wanna say I agree with that.
I can try to get on board with that.
One way of looking at it is that
sins committed out of desire often
come from a sort of selfish place.
And sins committed out of anger
might come out of a sort of you have
violated the communal norms or like a
protection of community kind of thing.
Yeah.
Anger is still selfish.
I, I think the underlying like.
Motivation or like the underlying
causes of anger maybe are, are more
general or like, it can be selfish,
but it can also come from protecting
other people and that kind of thing.
Whereas desire is sort
of inherently more Mm.
Personal.
Mm-hmm.
That is the most, I agree with you
that I'm, we're, we're, or I'm clutch I
against straws to defend this opinion.
Yeah.
Because to me it.
Well, this is I guess, a distinction
I've never made in my own head.
That's right.
I've never made this distinction.
And the more I think about it actually
the, I'm not sure if I do agree.
I can see maybe as a military commander
Yeah, it feels better to say, oh,
these sins that made it wa of anger
were, you know, were okay or lesser.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think you can make some
serious mistakes if you're, if
you can't control your anger.
Anger.
Yeah.
I agree.
And the more I think
about it, I think sins.
The Venn diagram of these sins
is pretty over like That's right.
Silent and anger, or not that
far away from one another.
I like, I can easily imagine sins
committed out of both, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
We're about to get an example, this guy.
I mean, and, and Marcus says
explicitly this is good philosophy.
So yeah.
Let, I guess, let's see what the okay.
How he elaborates here.
The angry man seems to turn
his back on reason out of a
kind of pain and inner conv.
But the man motivated by desire, who is
mastered by pleasure, seems somehow more
self-indulgent, less manly in his sins.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So basically your interpretation is
right, that if it's, it's more likely
to be selfish if it's out of desire.
Yeah.
I guess that is what he's saying.
The whole manliness thing is weird.
I, yes, I agree.
I, I think we've encountered the word
manly in this text before and the way
I continue to read it, Try to read it
as humanly and not male lee, because
I think, I do think that is closer
to what Aurelius would have meant.
Okay.
I like that.
Yeah.
So, yeah, he's, he's saying that
sins motivated by desire are more
beastly than sins motivated out
of anger, which is maybe true.
Okay.
Although, I don't know, I can, I, I don't,
I'm not really on Marcus's side here yet.
Okay.
I have an interesting interpretation.
Let's, okay, let's keep
reading and then I'll share it.
Okay.
Theo Freas is right and philosophically
sound to say that the sin committed out
of pleasure deserves a harsher rebuke
than the one committed out of pain.
The angry man is more like
a victim of wrongdoing.
Mm-hmm.
Provoked by pain to anger the other
man rushes into wrongdoing on his
own, moved to action by desire.
Okay.
Marcus has kind of convinced me, and
here's how I'm thinking about it.
So remember that Marcus runs an Empire
Uhhuh, and he has all these people
that he has to decide how to castigate.
Yeah.
And he has two types of
sins that he's punishing.
Yeah.
One is someone trying to better
their own station and do something,
does something out of desire, and
one is someone who let anger get
the best of them and made a mistake.
The latter is something is a type of
mistake that is easier to control.
It is easier to say.
All right.
You got angry.
Let me reposition you so that you
are in a, in a position where maybe
that anger starts to, is less like
damaging to the to the empire.
Right.
Whereas the former is really,
really hard to control.
It's if someone is motivated
by desire, you can't really,
you just, you lose their trust.
You lose, yeah, exactly.
They, you can't trust them because
you, there's nothing you can really
change about their position that.
Continue to make them desirous.
Yeah.
Yep.
That scans, I think I, I agree with that.
I think it's in accordance with what he's
saying at the, the end of the paragraph.
I also think there's another sort of
addition to that, which is if he's
dealing with people who have committed
a sin out of anger and he's adjudicating
their case or whatever, It's likely
that that anger was born out of some
initial aggression by some other party.
Sure.
And what he's now encountering is a
complicated situation where multiple
parties have wronged each other, perhaps
intentionally, perhaps unintentionally.
Right.
Whereas as sin committed out of
desire from his perspective, right.
Is more likely to have been just
a single person who committed
a transgression, which will be
a clearer case to adjudicate.
Totally.
Basically.
And I can definitely see, and,
and totally, and in my head
it's like you know, you have,
you, you're like, okay, you.
Colonel Johnny.
Yeah.
You you know, you, you, you sent your
forces into battle in a way that was like
clearly foolish, and you lost some men.
And Colonel Johnny's like, listen,
I, you know, they killed my brother.
Yeah.
And I, I, I thought we had this
opportunity and I was angry.
Yeah.
And there's, it's such a, Like it's
so easy as a, if you're Marcus, it is.
So, it is so much more pleasurable
to deal with that kind of mistake.
Yeah.
Than with a mistake that's like, oh, I
don't think I'm being leveled correctly.
I think I should be the centurion.
And here I am the second centurion.
Yeah.
Yep.
You know, I would so much rather give
me a hundred of the, you know, kind of.
Anger sins.
Yeah.
I would rather deal with those
than, than, than 10 of the desires.
Sins.
Yeah.
The, the other thing that
strikes me, I, I agree with that.
I think the other thing that strikes me
here is that I think Marcus is assuming
that the anger is like justified kind of.
Yeah.
Like there's something
in this that's true.
Like where he says the angry man
is more likely a victim or is
more like a victim of wrongdoing.
Yeah.
If people are sort of appropriately.
Then that's true.
But there are also people who are
just not in control of their anger.
That's true.
Where they can manipulate Marcus
maybe by just being angry when they
haven't been the victim of wrongdoing.
Sure.
So I think he's making an assumption about
the sort of gen or like people's tendency
to get angry and, and you can definitely
manipulate this perspective, right?
You can be a desirous general who
wants to get promoted and just
frame it as your sin, as an anger.
I, they killed my brother.
I want to get back to them.
And I'm not in a position where I.
Have the leverage I need to
win this war for you, Marcus.
Right.
You know, and that's what
makes me angry and that's what
made me charge into battle.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This one seems Marcus is, he's getting,
he's getting toyed with, he's testing
the waters not a part of this philosophy
than I think maybe he hasn't fully
thought with this Is, this is less
Fundamentally sound philosophically to me.
I agree.
I, I kind of like the, I kind of feel
like he's passing the bug on this one.
Maybe he knows, he's like,
this one's not so good.
But I'm gonna give a lot of credit to
Theo Fraus for this particular idea.
Yeah.
For some reason, I'm
thinking about it a lot.
I'm just gonna say, Theo Fraus really
seems to think this is a good idea.
Sure.
I'm gonna go, we'll,
we'll revisit this later.
I just, I just didn't, you know, I have a
friend who I should have probably, yeah.
Executed, but I didn't, and I'm gonna,
it was really, Dude, grass is fall.
Grass is fall.
Yeah.
And so yeah, let that be
known for posterity's sake.
Nice.
I like it.
Okay, number 11.
We'll break this one into pieces as well.
You could leave life right now.
Let that determine what
you do and say and think.
If the gods exist, then to abandon
human beings is not frightening.
The gods would never subject you
to harm, and if they don't exist
or don't care what happens to.
What would be the point of living in
a world without God's or providence?
But they do exist.
They do care what happens
to us and everything.
A person needs to avoid real
harm they have placed within him.
If there were anything harmful
on the other side of death,
they would've made sure that the
ability to avoid it was within you.
If it doesn't harm your character,
how can it harm your wife?
Nature would not have overlooked
such dangers through failing to
recognize them or because it saw.
But was powerless to prevent or correct
them, nor would it ever through inability
or incompetence make such a mistake
as to let good and bad things happen
indiscriminately to good and battle
like, but death and life, success and
failure, pain and pleasure, wealth and
poverty, all these happen to good and
bad alike, and they are neither noble nor
shameful, and hence, neither good nor bad.
Okay?
Okay.
I started off disagreeing.
I started off kind of feeling like,
yeah, I think I had the same mark.
Go ahead.
Yeah, Marcus.
Like, don't, don't, there's
no rhyme or reason to it.
Stop pretending like there's
someone watching out for you.
Yeah.
Which I personally believe.
I think we should just deal with
the chaos of life in the universe.
Yeah.
But then by the end of the
very last sentence, I, I agree.
I'm also compelled by that last sentence.
Yeah.
But death and lie, success and
failure, pain and pleasure, wealth
and poverty, all of these things
happened to good and bad alike.
So that, I feel like that's a
good conclusion to get to, even
though I don't quite agree with the
arc, with how, how he got there.
Yeah.
The, the other piece that I think
kind of works for me a little bit in
the middle, there was this argument
of like, if there's he kind of says,
if the gods don't exist, Who cares.
Like there would be no point to
like living, or he says, what
would be the point of living in a
world without God's or Providence?
Which is kind of, I think,
fault, like ultimately.
Yeah.
I guess I'm a little bit persuaded by his
logic there that he's, he is considering
a world without God's and then saying, No.
Yeah, I, well, sorry.
I disagree with his conclusion
that there is no point to living
in a world without God's, but I
like the fact that he is inspecting
the possibility of no, gods sure.
It's reminding me of the like no atheist
and foxholes kind of logic where like
there's, if you assign no like, value
to, to the possibility of life without
Gods, then you end up just assuming that
there are gods and living in a kind of
good way in accordance with the existence
of those gods rather than being torture.
By, oh no, maybe they exist,
maybe they don't exist.
Hmm.
Does that kind of make sense?
Sorry, I think I'm, I'm rambling
here a little bit, but the point, I
think I'm saying what, what is that?
No, atheist and foxholes.
Like what, what, where
does that come from?
That's some sort of old aphorism, but
the point, what, what it's meant by it
is basically when people encounter death,
they often become, they sort of say, oh,
I can either assume that there's no God,
in which case, Like I get nothing and
there's no, I'm just gonna die right now.
I see.
Or I can start praying to God right now
and become a really faithful, and then
maybe I'll get to live in an afterlife.
There's, this is called like Pascal's
wager or something like that.
Uhhuh too, I think.
Sure.
So there's no cost to believe
in God at the very end.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, but there is benefit cuz I could burn.
Hell, there's May, maybe it'll
work and if not, who cares?
Sure.
So Marcus is kind of like that.
Marcus is doing that.
150 years before Blaze, or
like 1500 years before Blaze,
Pascal or something like that.
Right.
Which I think is sort of, it's
logic that makes me like him
a little bit more, I guess.
Sure, sure.
That he's, yeah.
I feel like the gods are inserted
kind of randomly into this
stanza, but he might as well.
It's, yeah, you're right.
It's Pascal's wager.
He's like, yeah, if they exist then, you
know, then they wouldn't have done this.
And if they don't, then
the same holds true.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But, and I guess, I'm simultaneously
a little bit alienated by this
paragraph because it seems to be
so much about the gods and they
wouldn't do this to us and so forth.
Mm-hmm.
But then I'm endeared to him
because they does have to spend
a sentence or two entertaining.
Well, maybe they don't exist.
Well maybe they don't.
And then I'm like, oh, yeah.
Okay.
I think you're thinking about
the possibility where they
don't exist somewhat clearly.
Yeah.
Marcus.
Yeah.
And then you do return to No,
but they, I do think they exist
and, and yada, yada, yada.
And then he loses me a
little bit again, but yeah.
Un until the end of the p.
But that, I guess, endeared me a
little bit to him too, that he, in
his private journals, this emperor
of robe is at least willing to
entertain the idea of No Gods agreed.
Tom, we, I think maybe
we, should we wrap up?
Yeah, yeah.
Put a bookmark here.
Yeah.
Okay.
This was our, this was a new chapter
for us in our podcast, cuz we've
mostly talked about ourselves.
Yeah.
And we'll, yeah.
Yeah.
I, I had fun.
Me too.
Yeah.
And I think that's, That that
may be what this podcast is.
We're still figuring it out a little
bit, and I think that is almost
how the meditations are meant to
be read a little bit, is Sure.
In little pieces as they feel appropriate.
So I think we can look at that as the
format of this podcast moving forward
from my perspective, which is we'll
read some of the meditations or maybe
we will just talk about what's going
on and connect it to what we sort of
have remember from reading in the book.
Sounds good to me.
Cool.
All right.
Bye-bye.
Bye.