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The Fanfic Writers’ Craft is a podcast that discusses all things fanfiction with a focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. Every three weeks, Jo and Blayne (otherwise known in fandom as @pebblysand and @nargles15) sit down for a fun, multi-fandom, fanfic-related chat and delve into particular topics such as: the particularities of writing and reading fanfiction, monetisation, how to build a fanfiction plot, etc. Hope you enjoy!
You can find us and contact us at: https://thefanficwriterscraft.tumblr.com/
Hello, and welcome to the fanfic writer's craft, a podcast that discusses all things fan fiction with focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. My name is Jo, aka Prebley Sand, and I'll be your host for the next hour or so. My cohost, Blayne, writes online under the name Nargles fifteen. You'll meet her shortly. We hope you enjoy, but for now buckle up.
Jo:Get yourself a nice cup of tea and welcome to the fanfic writer's craft. Hi everyone and welcome to the fanfic writer's craft. This is Jo. I hope you're all doing well. Before we start, I just wanted to say hi.
Jo:First of all, I know that we haven't been updating much recently and that's totally as per usual. My fault, as I've announced on the podcast before, I am going to be doing a masters in creative writing starting September. So I've been putting a lot of work into, you know, finishing up my day day job and doing a lot of writing, doing a lot of prep, and just kind of enjoying my holidays as well. So I'm sorry if we haven't had much content. There is an upcoming episode that is going to be about editing, which Elaine and I have already recorded.
Jo:I just need to finish editing it, so that should come into your timelines pretty soon. Apart from that, today's episode is a little bit special. It is an episode that Blayne and I actually recorded in September, which is an episode that we recorded as a bonus to discuss My Longfek Castles. At the time, I had just finished it. I finished it on the August 19.
Jo:The episode was very, very long. We talked for over three hours and so it took me a really long time to get to it and edit it. But I thought as today is the one year anniversary of me finishing Castles, I would release it as a little treat to the people who did read The Fiche and who might have wanted to just know more about it. So I'm very, very excited to share this with you. I am also very excited to start editing the ironically editing episode quite soon.
Jo:If you have read Castles and are about to listen to this episode, I just wanted to thank you again so much for all the trust and the love and the comments and the endurance that you guys have given me for four years and now five. It has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you about it and to see it blossom and bloom this past year now that it's finished. It's been an incredible journey and I don't know, I don't really have words for it. It's really hard to capture how I feel today. A year on, I think my life has dramatically changed and I am in a weird way.
Jo:Although the last year was pretty hard, I feel like I am very much where I wanted to be this time last year when I finished CASTLS. You know, I've committed to writing, and I'm going to be doing this full time for the foreseeable future. And that has been an incredible gift that you guys are not exclusively, but in good parts responsible for because I think you guys gave me the confidence and all the love that I needed to make that choice and make that commitment. And so, yeah, I can't thank you enough. I'm so happy to be where I am today.
Jo:Very excited for September and very excited to keep writing and keep giving you content. So, yeah, thank you so much. And, yeah, this episode contains a lot of lore, a lot of thoughts that I had on castles at the time, and still do have a lot of trivia about castles and stuff. So if you're excited about that, feel free to listen to it, and I hope that it kind of scratches a little bit of a castle's itch. So this episode dives right into the meat of everything.
Jo:And the first question that Nergals had for me was something that she called sad Harry power hour. So the first question that I had was asking her to explain what she meant by that. And so I'll let her take it away. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much.
Blayne:Yes. Oh my god. Okay. I have all my beers ready for the power hour. No.
Blayne:So sad Harry, when you and I were chatting, in the, like, early days, you mentioned, how your favorite tag on, castles was someone had put real good sad Harry. And I can't tell you how much I, like, legitimately need that to become one of the top tags on AO3 so that, like, I can sort by it. Because I thought what I wanted was, like, angst. I thought what I wanted was, like, hurt comfort, hurt no comfort. Like, let's and really, really what I want is, like, let's take this boy and, like, ruin his life.
Blayne:And I just I I really do think like, as as, like, funny as it is because I I don't know. I feel like there is such a thing in, like, fandom, and, like, I don't know if it's it's most fandoms or if they're ones that, like, don't quite go out into this, but, like, I'm not in those fandoms, so fuck them. I know that in, like, Harry Potter in particular, there is, like, this real want both by, like, writers of Harry Potter fan fiction and especially, like, readers of Harry Potter fan fiction to, like, absolutely torture this kid and just have him, like, react really sadly to it. Like, I just I just got back from a a screening of of Holly Hollows part one, and, god, I mean, the feast of sad Harry, like, just the lingering shots of him on, like, the sad British countryside just, like, looking morosely into the distance.
Blayne:I was like, nom nom nom nom Eat it up. Like and
Blayne:I just I I don't know. I didn't know if, like, we had any, like, kind of larger, more intelligent thoughts around, like like, why we think that is. Like, why do why do we think that people are so drawn to reading Sad Harry, to writing Sad Harry? Like, I don't like, I mean, I can't speak for everyone else, but, like, I would like to say it's not necessarily, like, some sort of masochistic story. But, like, there is something that is, like I don't know.
Blayne:I I I wonder if it kinda gets into the same conversation of, like, why do we like horror? Why do we like thrill rides? Why do we like this, that, and the other? Is it it kinda gives, like, an outlet and a catharsis of, like, processing sad like, why do we wanna watch sad movies? Like, why am I sitting here crying again some, you know, fourteen odd years later to Dobby dying again?
Blayne:I knew it was coming. That little fucker popped up again on the screen with Preacher, and I was like, oh god. Right. You die in this one. Like but, yeah, we still, like, we still put ourselves through it, and we we we want, like, it to be almost just, like, sad as possible.
Blayne:And, yeah, I do do you have intelligent thoughts around this or are we just all a bunch of sickos?
Jo:I don't know. I think no. But I think you're right in, like, quoting Deathly Hallows part one because that was, like, a massive inspiration for castles and, like, the mood that I wanted, at least in the beginning, because obviously the fic is, like, 400,000 words, so it changes. But I don't know. I've always found that this this particular film was very inspiring.
Jo:Like, my previous long work at Children was also kind of I I also started writing it after seeing the film. I wouldn't say it was, like, inspired by it because it was, like, a different fandom, a different mood completely. But, like, I don't know. There's something about that film that, like, speaks to me. And I think it is the sad Harry vibes of, like, these kind of reflective, you know, staring into the distance.
Jo:But I would disagree that it is a common theme in the Harry Potter fandom because, to be honest, at least when you're looking at, like, Harry and Ginny and even, like, post war just generally, I'm finding a lot of, like, angst and, like, romantic angst and, like, angst no comfort and all that stuff and, like, not torturing him but, you know, kind of making him go through things. But it's never that very specific, like, Deathly Hallows vibe that is also at the beginning of castles. And I would say that, like, that's actually why I started writing castles because I couldn't find something that had that, like, again, sad Harry vibe. Like, I don't know how else to describe it.
Blayne:I think I love I love the word reflective. I think that you said, I think that really, like, absolutely nails it because I think that, like, when you think of, oh, let's, you know, let's torture Harry in fan fiction. Like, I think a lot of people can think lump texts where it's like, oh, you know, like, Harry is this, like, sad little emo boy who, like, you know, is, like, in and out of the hospital wing all the time. And, like, you know, it's it's like oh, it's like the really horrible, like, let's legitimately torture this boy, like, circa 2003 fan fic. And I and I I think that, like, what has had, you know, kind of birthed from that is that, like, more mature, like, angst.
Blayne:I I do I do agree. I think that, like, there is a, like, a reflectiveness, I think that I'm trying to think of, like, how to put it best. But, yeah, I absolutely get that vibe in Castles, that it's not it's not the, like, will they, won't they romantic angst that I think you can see a lot. It's a, it's like a self development angst. It's a, it's a, it's a, like coming to like better know yourself almost like, I don't know.
Blayne:It's, it's, there's something that's like really, really interesting in it. I mean, one of the things that really struck me again, rewatching part one, is just, like, how much it's emphasized about, like, Harry, Ron, and Hermione being alone. Dumbledore is having failed Harry. I mean, you literally have the scene where they go to Grimald Place for the first time after the wedding, and Hermione literally goes, we're alone. And it and it's the slow fade out.
Blayne:And I and I think that that very much is, like, the vibe of castles. It's like like I mean, because Harry I mean, and Ginny to to a certain extent are, like, completely stripped down, and it's this almost, like, crisis of identity. And I think that that is something that's so interesting you don't necessarily see in in postwar fics. You get a lot of, like, obviously grief. You get a lot of, like, okay, rebuilding if it's a good fix.
Blayne:But you don't get a lot of, like, who are we now without the war? Like, we have we have become such specific people in response to the events around us. I mean, their war, like, outright lasts from what? Like, you know, end of the summer to May, like, a good several months of just nightmarish hell. And, you know, they've they've completely changed.
Blayne:And this, you know, how how do I reconcile, you know, this me who I was before the war, who I really never can get back, this me who I was during the war who cannot fit in this new world, and this sort of, like, lost me after it going, how do I tie all three together?
Jo:Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And I think, you know, another thing that was all also kind of in my head, and it's not in the in the films, but, you know, that scene where Harry tortures Amicus Karen.
Blayne:Yes. Yeah.
Jo:And, you know, there's obviously a very gradual, like, increase in the level of violence that he's capable of, you know, and you kind of see that through OTP where he tries to curse Bellatrix and can't. And then you see that in like HBB where he curses Draco, but involuntarily, really. Like he doesn't mean And then in at the beginning of GH, he has this fight with Mundungus in which he means it, but it's not that violent. Like, is it like, it is kind of like, you know, a little bit threatening and stuff. But it it he means the violence, but it's not that much violence.
Jo:And then you get to the end of the war where he's capable of cruciating Amicus' care for a reason that is objectively at the time like, it's serious, but it's not that serious.
Blayne:Yeah, he spits at McGonagall. It's a disrespect, it's not a harm.
Jo:And it's also like, obviously there's the background of him having learnt through Neville and Seamus that you know, they were tortured and stuff. So there is that kind of buildup. And I've always kind of thought of that. I've always thought that was one of the like, to be honest, one of the most interesting scenes in Harry Potter. And I've always kind of lived with it being like, how do you explain that and how do you come back from that as well, you know?
Jo:Because you're kinda like, okay. Well, you're that's what you're capable of and that's very much what, like, act one of castles is about. It's like this thing of like, here's all the things that you're capable of in a time of war. And how do you reconcile that with living through it and being like, okay, well, we're on the other side now and what what happens, really?
Blayne:I think that's why you're like a Vatican Aberceen in castles is so fucking good because I think it it encapsulates that so much is that it's we're taking something that, you know, that's that's incredibly, you know, literally life or death circumstances that we all just lived through and we're encapsulating it inside of this like very sterile classroom. And it's almost this like vibe of had we been able to do this during the war, we like probably would have. And I think that that's, there's such this tension, like there of who we were during the war and now who we kind of have to be. And this, this thing that we all absolutely, I mean, I would argue we all absolutely like know we would have done to keep the people that we love and to keep ourselves safe. Like, okay, now we're gonna learn it in a classroom on, like, you know, attached to rats.
Blayne:Now there's all these, like, ministry, you know, standards and and protocols and such and such behind it. And I it's, you know, it's it's almost this, like, that's so much of the tension under that scene is who they were and who they now are.
Jo:Yeah. 100%.
Blayne:So that's sad Harry.
Jo:So if you ever hear us talk about sad Harry, that's what we mean.
Blayne:Oh my gosh. No. I I we love we love absolutely just ruining this boy's life, but he gets to think about it a lot. So maybe that's cathartic for him. Okay.
Blayne:So I had some questions for you just that I had been kinda kinda thinking of in the back of my head just from, you know, reading Castles and, you know, the conversations that we've had about it and just, like, my own kinda thoughts. But okay. The first thing I think and, like, we're gonna be really cheating. I'm gonna start with the title, which I know comes from the Eminem song that ends up, like, kind of circling back at the very end, and there's that really, like, sweet scene of, like, Harry and Lily Lily Luna Potter two. Harry and his daughter discussing, which oh, why you why you have to do Mockingbird like that?
Blayne:Oh my god. It was so oh my god. Fathers and daughters. Let's all cry about that. But I I just I would love to go to talk because it it does I mean, Eminem and, like, it he like, his music crops up a lot throughout castles.
Blayne:And I know that that was, like, a big source of inspiration for you. And so I wanted you like, I didn't know if there was like, you had any thoughts about that of, like, you know, it being beyond just kind of a a fun wink to this is kind of what what helped amongst other things kick off this whole grand adventure.
Jo:So hi, everyone. This is Jo from the future. I was relistening to the to the podcast, and I kind of realized that I didn't do that good of a job at, like, explaining the kind of genesis behind castles and the sort of especially the sort of relationship that it has with the song by Eminem and kind of, like, the inspiration that lies behind it. And so because it's my privilege as the editor of this podcast to get a second opportunity to record, I thought I would know. So, basically, the story behind this fic and how it relates to the song is that, like, from around 2007 when Deathly Hallows came out, I have tried regularly to write this Harry and Jenny post war rebuilding fic.
Jo:I was always kind of interested in their relationship and I think I was also always kind of interested in how do you get to the epilogue. I think even as a kid, it always kind of fascinated me how you get from point a to point b and and everything that we don't see on screen. And so I was kind of always interested in writing about that and I did a number of attempts, like every time I would reread the books, I would have a go and like kind of un earth all drafts and look at them and be like 'okay what could I do with this?' but it never quite worked and I always kind of stopped, like I would bite a little bit and stop. The most sort of progress I made was when I think I was like 17 or 18. I reread the books and I wrote a draft that you ended up seeing if you have read Castles because I wrote the scene where Harry moves into the new flat, like he moves out of the Weasleys and into the new flat.
Jo:And I also wrote the scene that is now probably and the line that is now the probably the most famous line of Castles because it's the one in the summary which is to him, May '98 is about sex and funerals. That was what I had when I was 17. But again, like, I could never kinda take it beyond that. It was always kinda missing something. And then I reread the books, during one of the lockdowns in 2020, I think the second lockdown, like the summer one.
Jo:And I started pondering over this again and I was I was kind of looking into writing again as well because it was lockdown and it was kind of like this opportunity, so I was kind of looking at it again and being like, okay, maybe I could do something with this. And then I think probably on Spotify I got Blade, like, randomly, Castle by Eminem. The song so this and that's kind of where the song comes in. The song by Eminem, which is which the fake title is based on, is actually Castle Singular. And it's a song that was on an album that came out in the mid two thousands, so a little bit after, like, Eminem's sort of biggest era in, the February.
Jo:And the song is shaped like these letters that he's writing to his daughter to explain firstly his rise to fame and secondly his drug addiction and subsequent overdose in 02/2007. The song ends quite tragically because at the end he decides to swallow a bunch of pills and commit suicide basically. And I've always liked that song because it talks a lot about like not only the drug addiction and not only his relationship to his daughter but also the kind of isolation from fame as well and the chorus, sort of goes like we I've built this castle at the top and we're now all alone and this kind of loneliness which I think as we've discussed earlier in the podge kind of applies to Harry and Ginny at and and also a lot of the others at the end of the war. It's kind of like isolation and loneliness and existential crisis about who you are and and what you've become. But what I've always thought was interesting about that song as well is that there's an alternate ending.
Jo:Basically, the song Arose, which is at the end of the album, takes back the beat and some of the lyrics of Castle and adapts them and rewrites them for him to not commit suicide and actually throw the pills in the toilet and decide that he's going to survive, decide that he's going to go for sobriety and decide that he's going to try and survive for his daughter. And I think, like, what resonated with me and what you kinda see in the fic as well is this idea of, like, struggling to stay alive and make the active choice to fight for your own survival and to fight and to decide to live in the face of adversity. And especially, I think you see that in the early chapters where Harry is kind of toeing the line a little bit of like his post war depression and what will become of him and this kind of question of like, okay, what now and what do we have to live for in the face of all that death? And I've always been kind of fascinated with this question, but I think questions these two endings and kind of like, okay, what are the choices, the active choices that we have to make and how do we choose life in such dire circumstances?
Jo:And sort of, as I said, like this sort of balance between the darkness and the light, which you also see in summary, sex and funerals, which is very present throughout the fic. And I think another dimension for me in that song was also and that really clicked was this line that ended up quoted in the fic itself, which is like, we are trying to build castles out of sand, baby girl. I had this, like, immediate vision just, like, listening after rereading the books in 2020 and listening to the song. I had this vision of, like, Harry years later trying to explain that to his children, that fight to rebuild and that fight to choose life and this kind of castle that they're rebuilding both literally with Hogwarts from Hogwarts to Godric's Hallow at the end, but also metaphorically that sort of idea that they were trying to rebuild something and then something would happen and the tide keeps coming in and the castle keeps scrambling and you're kind of moving on. And I think that to me is a lot of what life is as well.
Jo:This kind of constant fight to make do with what life brings to you and this decision to kind of keep fighting, keep going. And I think that was sort of what resonated with me in the song and and the kind of what I had that vision of Harry trying to explain that to his children and this idea of like Out of Sand, Baby Girl. And obviously, like, then that gave me the poem and the chapter titles and all that stuff. But I think like so at the time when I listened to that song, I had this idea of like, oh, actually this fic, this post war fic that I'm going to write is going to be a one shot and it's going to be like the four questions which I had from the very very beginning with like the four kids James, Albus, Teddy, Lily with them asking Harry questions. And James was always going to be like, where are my grandparents?
Jo:Albus was going to be like him asking his father if he's okay because I think that's a very Albus thing to think about. And Teddy was going to have questions about his dad that were not going to have answers. And then Lily was going to close it with, like, what was the hardest thing. And I really wanted to kind of have that dimension of like intergenerational trauma. And so that was going to be a one shot.
Jo:And then I later realized, through ways that I will explain in the podcast later, but I later realized that like that Harry and Ginny rebuilding warfare and the sort of intergenerational trauma piece that I had, one shot that I had, could be merged into one big story. And so the kind of thing that Castle, the song, kinda comes back to is that it was like the little spark that I needed on top of, the original story and the original, like, rebuilding thing to kinda give in that dimension and give it meat and know where I was going and how it was going to end. So, yeah, back to the episode.
Blayne:No. I and I mean, this this segues perfectly because my one of my questions for you is gonna be, you know, how like, you had this this kind of large unwieldy idea, which we love. We love when those come to you and you're like, what the fuck do I do with this? Alright. We gotta go.
Blayne:It's like, what what was was there things that surprised you that you added to this fic from what you started with that you, you know, ended up on the cutting room floor, like things that you wanted to include, but didn't necessarily get the chance to, things where you thought were gonna be like quite key, but ended up, you know, changing? How kind of was that process?
Jo:Yeah. So I think like, as I said, so I at the beginning, had like these two stories that were like the postwar thing and the sort of Eminem like questions thing. And then I merged them both. Like, I was like, no, this is actually one story. And so then I came up with Mhmm.
Jo:At the beginning, it was gonna be five chapters.
Blayne:And that's why we love that.
Jo:Love know. Right? But I I kind of still like yeah. Yeah. Like, might reuse it and I might reuse it for, like, original fiction.
Jo:It was supposed to be Yeah. Like, it was going to be, like, five big parts at, like, different points of the journey. So it was going to be, like, direct post war and then a few years after the war and then, you know, it was gonna be like that. And
Blayne:I think that works so well with original fiction because fan fiction, like, you want every scene. Like, that's why I read fan fiction is to read the scenes where, like, any good editor kind of worked their salt would be like, we don't really need Yeah. This is a little day to day. This is the same. I'm like, no.
Blayne:Let me crawl inside these characters' skin and live there. I want 400,000 words. So I'm glad you did expand it. Because I think that's part of what makes Castle so good is, I mean, you really do. I know we kind of kick it into high gear once we hit, like, the twenties and we start clipping along with the years.
Blayne:But, like, I mean, you really do spend almost, like, every day with these characters from '98 out through what we hit, like, 2030, 2040.
Jo:2028.
Blayne:You're there with them.
Blayne:Yeah. 2028. I know math.
Blayne:2028. I am thinking that Harry and the gang are a lot younger than they actually are because I imagine myself that way. But, yeah, I I I I love that it did, like, you know, I'm gonna say balloon, but I
Jo:mean it
Blayne:in the best way possible out to something this big.
Jo:Yeah. And I think, like so the next thing I had, the next idea I had was what ended up being chapter 19, which is like nine eleven and the like and then like Harry getting taken hostage and all that stuff. But that was kind of like the second the end everything everything about about Iraq Iraq and and all all that because that was kind of like the second idea that I had was like, if I'm writing a post war thing and I wanted it to have that satiric vibe, I wanted it to be realistic. And I was like, well, they're three years away from like nine eleven and JKR is like telling us, oh, you know, everything's alright and there was never a war again, basically. Like, all was well.
Jo:And I'm like
Blayne:Sure, JK.
Jo:And I'm like, well, they're three years away from nine eleven. So, you know, that was kind of like my thing. And so that was kind of what was there from the beginning. And then I think, to be honest, like, it surprised me that it ballooned that way. But whilst I was writing chapter one, I got I don't wanna say laid off because I didn't get laid off.
Jo:But let's just say I got aggressively pushed out of
Blayne:And my
Jo:so I got pushed out of my job and so I was kind of unemployed for six months. And I was studying, like, was studying for the bar exam at the time, but I was still kinda like, Okay, I have nothing. Well, I would rather write fanfic than do my bar exam study, basically.
Blayne:Anything. Do literally anything. Right.
Jo:And so that's kind of how I ended up, you know, just growing the story like entire the entirety of Act one is just grown out of my own boredom, to be honest. And then I think what surprised me don't wanna say it surprised me. No. I think I had always thought that like Ginny would have made a very good target for being abused. I think even when the book came out, I was like 13 or 14.
Jo:But I remember not in those terms, but I remember thinking to myself, like the canon version of like her not getting hurt just because, you know, he broke up with her never quite rang real to me. And I have since found out that it actually worked for a lot of people. It just didn't work for me. And so It
Blayne:didn't work for me either. I mean, because it's like, yeah, he he broke up with her, but, like, everyone still knew that, like, this was someone who, at some point Yeah. Was incredibly important to him. And and, like, I mean, she literally says, I thought, I can't even remember if it's fanfic or Canada at this point. I gotta read books.
Blayne:But like, it's this, you know, I I, you know, he he Voldemort went after you when he only thought that you were like like, my best friend's little sister. And now you're this this, you know, romantic partner of mine. You're someone who's even more incredibly important to me. I've I completely agree. I think it rang re I think I think it is a product of the Harry Potter series being geared at children.
Blayne:Yes. Because there's no way to, like, PG 13 do that and and do that respectfully.
Jo:100%. And so yeah. So I think I it had always been in my head, but I remember distinctly when I was starting to write castles, like when I was writing Act one, thinking about it a lot, but being like, I'm not going to go there because I was already getting a lot of negativity in my comments section at the time. And I was like, I don't want the hassle.
Blayne:Yeah, I was
Jo:like, these people are going to come for me. I was like, I don't want that. And so I think for a very long time, a few chapters, was like, I'm not going to write that. She's going to be tortured and stuff like that was going to be the case. But I was like, I'm not going to go the sexual abuse route.
Jo:And then I wrote a first version of chapter eight, which was going to be which was always going to be like this thing where like she reveals what happened to her. Like, that was always going to be And the I wrote a first version of it and something didn't work. Like, you know, when you're writing something and you're like, this is fine, but it's not great.
Blayne:It feels anemic. Yeah.
Jo:Yeah. Completely. I was like, there's something that and I was I was turning around. I like edited it a bunch of times. Like, I was like, there's something that's not working.
Jo:And then I got I got a comment from someone called Wizz Fizz who has since left left fandom, but I feel like I need to thank them so much for this comment, which was a very, very vague comment. I think they phrased it the way they phrased it was like it says in chapter one that it was was Harry's first time when they had sex and it felt like Ginny's, but you wouldn't ask. What did you mean by that? And I found them on Tumblr, and I messaged them, and I was like, I need you to tell me what you mean by this message.
Blayne:I'm dead. Oh my god. Because
Jo:I was like, if I'm not the only one who thought this, if there's one other person who thought this, then I am writing it. And so they kind of opened up their own headcanon, which I didn't have the whole Amicus Caro in my head. I was like, she probably got abused, but I didn't know about who. I didn't know anything. And Wiz Fizz, to their credit, like, they had the headcanon of it being Amicus Caro.
Jo:They had a completely different headcanon. It was like a one time thing. It was rape. Like, that was it. But I was like, okay.
Jo:And then I kind of took that with their permission and I took that and kind of made it my own and made it the story that ended up in castles. And so was that a surprise? Like, was that something that surprised me? I don't know. I think it completely derailed the fic in the way that, like, I used to have like an arc that was going to be, I don't know, a 150,000 words long and it ended up at 400,000 because it added like 200,000 to this thing because then I was like, once I commit to this, I need to do it well.
Jo:And doing it well was going to imply the fact that I was going to have to. But I was like, you know what? I'll just do it. I mean, did I consider the consequences of my own actions? Probably not.
Blayne:Well, I just think it's so telling because, like, I I remember getting to that section and you read all of Ginny's letters, which I I, like, legitimately think of, like, how many times Ginny writes in those letters, Harry, where are you? I think about it every time. Again, watching part one, I was just I was like, oh, God. Yeah. Like, Jenny's at Hogwarts writing these little letters going not little, but, know, writing these letters going like, Harry, where are you?
Blayne:And just thinking so much about how, like, they don't know if he Like, the only way that they know he's not dead is because Voldemort would be like triumphantly announcing it, but they have no fucking clue where he is. And how terrifying that is. And I was reading that and you get to the section where, you know, Ginny reveals what Eraqus has done to her. And I completely, I thought of that line back in the first chapter and I was like, God, this bitch is brilliant. Like she laced it in from there.
Blayne:She knew where she was going. What a blowback. This is incredible. This is so well thought. Like, I just and I like it.
Blayne:I think it speaks to, like, you know, and not not to, like, put words in your mouth, but almost, like, like, if this has been something that had kind of, like, circling the drain, so to speak, in your brain for a bit. Like, I I almost think that that's Yeah. Like, I I always say,
Blayne:like, so much
Blayne:of writing is just sort of, like, shutting up and, like, letting your like, getting out of your brain's way and, like, letting your brain do it because your brain really knows what it wants to be there. And I think it's just it's such a good like, this is such a good lesson of, like, if you're worried about when writing about, like, something being too much or being too cheesy or or too this, that, and the other, or, I don't wanna go there. I'm gonna just do this, but it's good, but it doesn't feel like it's enough. Go there. Do that.
Blayne:As long as you do. And I think that that's what makes the Ginny Amicus plotline so good in Castles is how respectful it is, how much, like, sexual assault is not played as a plot point. It's not, you know, this, oh, well, we need to give Ginny some we need to give Ginny a sad thing so that Harry can have some character development. Like, we it's it's it's so absolutely not like, you you do it so sensitively and so well and with so much care that, like, I think that like, I I, like, legitimately cannot imagine what castles would have been without that because it's it just, I mean, like, to the whole theme of of how wars are fought and what wars actually mean and, like, the cyclical nature of it, like, that's been a part of war since there has been war and to not include that really does it a disservice.
Jo:Yeah. And it's funny you say that because that's exactly what WizFiz told me. I remember I was kind of telling them about like how the sort of goal of castles was to paint a more realistic picture of the postwar world. And they said to me, well, in that case, if you don't include it, I would I think it's unrealistic. Yeah.
Jo:And that, like, that really hit me. I was like, they're right. Because if you're writing about war and at the time, they didn't know that was the point of the story. But in my head, was like, well, if you're writing about war, not writing that is, again, a disservice to the story. That was kind of like the idea behind it.
Jo:And the thing that really pushed me in that direction was like, Okay, well, if you're writing about war, you have to write about it. And then, you know, I could have had like, I could have had it happen to someone else. Like I could have been, you know, it could have been a secondary character. It could have been something else and it could have been a mention like that. But I was kinda like, that's kind of doing it how far, know, like it's kinda like
Blayne:Yeah, yeah.
Jo:So and again, Ginny is such a good target. Like she's such a good target for that kind of violence. And so, yeah, I think that was kind of made me decide. But then again, it was a very big plot line to to take on. And then and then I think the next thing that happened that came to me and that was kind of like the last thing that came to me, then I just wrote stuff that I already knew was going to happen.
Jo:But the last thing that came to me was a few months after writing Chapter eight was Lily going to war. That was kind of like the last big plot point that I hadn't planned at the start that came to me later.
Blayne:What a thing to come.
Jo:That one was weird as well, because it kind of came to me like so weirdly clearly. Like the whole time I was like, why does Lily ask that to Harry? And it was always going to be the thing of her going to Godric's Hollow, taking over the house, and, like, renovating renovating it and then making it a museum and then the last scene of Harry coming in. Like, that was always going to be there. But the one plot point that wasn't there was her going to war.
Jo:And I kept being like, why does she why is she drawn to that house? Why does she wanna open that museum? Like and I kinda toyed with a number of things. I was like, is she a journalist? Is she, like, is she riding a bait, like, bull or something?
Jo:You know? Like but it kept, like, percolating in my head. And then I will always remember it was, like, winter. And I was in it was probably, like, 2022, early twenty twenty two. And I was at home.
Jo:I was walking my dog, Gaia, and this song by Passenger called Two Tails came on my Spotify. And I knew the song, but I hadn't heard it in a while. And basically, it's this song about this couple getting into a car accident and the girl getting very seriously injured and him just like trying to find help basically and and and seeing her dying and trying to find help. And then the second tale is the tale of the parents who are waiting for the car that doesn't come. So there's like this kind of two tail thing.
Jo:And I remember listening to that song and having this like idea of like, Lily goes to war. She's in a car accident. Like, that was immediate. And within the time that it had taken me to walk the dog, I was like, this is what I'm gonna do. Like, it was again, it's one of those things that, like, I feel like it had been percolating in my head for so long that when it came, it really came.
Jo:And I was like I was like, of course. Of course. Like, it made so much sense. It made so much sense towards the story. It was, you know, it didn't require me to change anything because everything was laid out for things to happen at the end.
Jo:And so it was like so satisfying to be like, oh my god, Of course. You know? But yeah.
Blayne:I I absolutely love when things fall into place like that, and you're just like, I'm a genius, and this was completely meant to be. Anyway, we talked about, like, doing, like, justice to storylines and, like, really doing doing right by certain things. So one of the things I think that, like, you and I have kind of chatted a bit with online is this idea of, like, like, finally sitting down to write a scene that has, like, lived in your head for, like, months and months and perhaps years. Help me. I'm currently stuck in that hell with my original fiction.
Blayne:And I just I would just love to, like, hear about your experience with that because I feel like it's you can almost get, like, two camps where it's like like we were just saying, the the, like, oh my god. It it it, like, comes to you and then and it, like, falls in your head, and then you sit down or, like, it it you
Blayne:know, when it comes time to actually put pen to paper, it falls out
Blayne:of you, and you're like, oh, sweet. Like, you're like, giving birth is easy. I don't know why you bitches are complaining about it so much. And then others where you're like, I've been pushing for thirty six hours. Someone just ripped this damn baby out of me.
Blayne:Like, I, like, I feel like there you can't like, the second option, which is so horrible, is this, like, I built it up so much in my head, and I see it so clearly, and, like, whatever I go to write just all sounds so trite and stupid. Like, what has your experience been like with that? Because I I know you've you've had a lot of scenes in castles where it's been, I've been sitting with this for four years. I can't wait for people to stop. Yeah.
Blayne:How was that like?
Jo:You know, I've had both scenarios that you've just described. Like, I think so scenes that were in my head for a long time were like the first one I got to write was the confrontation between Harry and Draco. And that kind of that completely flowed out of me like like it was it was in my head and then it was on paper and I was like, this is great. I think the second one that I had thought about this month was probably chapter 18, the storyline of Hermione getting the abortion. And that had been in my head for a very long time since.
Jo:So it was probably like, what, a year between Ro and me getting that chapter out. So it has been there for a year. And to be honest, like, I've reread chapter 18 recently. I don't like it. I'm still not happy with it.
Jo:I think I messed it up. I think the reason why I messed it up is because when I was writing this chapter, coincidentally, it was around seventh and like the hostages in Israel and stuff in like Palestine. And I was like, I don't really care about the Roe thing. I felt bad about it because I was like, this is both for equally important topics. Right?
Jo:Like, it's, you know, I was like, I don't want to be writing a story about abortion now because my brain just, like, wasn't in that story. And at the same time, was like, well, I have to write it because it's important and I wanted to write it. But I still feel like I didn't do justice to the thing that was in my brain. But at the same time, was like, well, I need to keep going. I need to write this rick, and this is what needs to happen.
Jo:So I don't know. Like, I don't really have an answer to it. But then, you know, 19 had been in my head for a long time and that turned out well. And then
Blayne:Yes, it did.
Jo:And then, you know, 24 had been in my head like for four years and it turned out to be what it turned out to be. So I think overall I had quite good experiences with it. But I think, yeah, chapter 18 and also 23, I'm not I don't know. I wasn't super happy with the whole like, storyline of Harry getting fired and him fighting with Hermione and stuff. Like, it was better in my head than it turned out.
Blayne:Awesome. I loved it. It's so
Jo:It better in my head than it turned out on the page. And
Blayne:I think I just I think it's so funny. Like, you hear and, like, you are not the first person to say there's no way to be the last, but I feel like you you talk with authors a lot and they're like, oh god. I just yeah. Like, you know, the book just had to be done and, like, I'm not quite satisfied with this scene. And I'm like, I want to take this scene lovingly from you and show it at the home because I love and appreciate this scene.
Blayne:But I do I do think that, like, that you can see it in in, like, such a specific way. And, like, it's not what you envisioned, but it is it's not like what we were saying with the choosing not to include something that really needs to be included. And so it feels anemic. It's just this, like I don't know. I feel like in the same way where, like, you know, you start, like, seeing a new guy and you're like, I love him so much.
Blayne:And your friends are all like, show me a picture. And you're like, he doesn't take good pictures. I promise. Like, he's like, he's like, you can't see why I love him so much. Like, I promise he doesn't actually look like this.
Blayne:Like, I feel like it's like and they're like, no. It's Kim. Like, I feel like it's I don't know. Maybe it's, like, the inverse of that of, like, I I, like, I see it so clearly, and I'm, like, I'm trying to convey something to you. And maybe what I love about this scene in my head is is something that, like, you can't quite capture on paper, but, like, I don't know.
Blayne:Maybe there's, like, you just kinda have to have a faith in people will get that that same feeling from it. Because, I mean, the the Hermione abortion scene, like, I just remember, you know, because, you know, it came out around the same time as as the, you know, the the stuff with Palestine started to to come back into the news. I just remember reading that and being like, oh, fucking right. Well, we also got to be pissed about Roe v Wade. What?
Blayne:It's it's just like I I don't know. It's like every day is a new horror, and, like, with thanks to the Republican Party, you never kind of know what horror that's gonna be. And it's like, okay. Just because the soup of the day is a split pea and ham hock does not mean that I you know, if I come and it's like, here's a French onion. I'm like, oh god.
Blayne:That's right. I do like this soup. Like, I don't know. It's it it becomes this, like I I do really feel like there was that kind of, like, righteous anger there, and there was I really got that because I I think that maybe this is me trying to soothe my own wounds as I write these scenes. But, like, I think if something has lived in your head for so long and you're someone who knows what you're doing when it comes to writing, which clearly you are, that, like, don't know.
Blayne:There's there's there's almost this, like, intangibles that, like, the reader can kind of sense because, like, you mentioned the scene with Harry and Malfoy and how it fell out and literally thinking back on it, I'm like, oh, that makes total sense. Because, like, not like other scenes in Castle Stick, but that one, for some reason, I was like, oh, she's in her, like, groove right now. Like, you can feel the flow. I just remember reading it and being like, you captured Draco and, like, not, you know, fanon Draco who's, like, having sex with Harry, but like you captured like book Draco and like who he would be post war because how many fics do we get of like Harry and Draco kind of meeting up after the war? And like how many, how many scenes like that have been written.
Blayne:And a lot of people write him like kind of demure or like downtrodden or this, that and the other. And I'm like, it just doesn't quite feel right. That was Draco during the war. This is him trying to collapse the three selves again. And I think he would revert back to that haughty, holier than thou.
Blayne:Mean, because he's a bully, and that's that's who his character is, like, at its core. You know, maybe he softens a bit later on in life, but, like, yeah.
Jo:But at the same time, he's got that edge of like, he doesn't care anymore because he's in jail. So it's like, there's also that new persona for him as well of like him being in a position where he's got nothing to lose anymore.
Blayne:Yeah, really.
Jo:Harry has a lot to lose at that point. Yeah. And so that's kind of like the dynamic that I really like in that scene. Yeah. Anyway.
Blayne:Oh, no. So okay. So segue. So talking about how you brilliantly wrote canon characters, let's talk about how you brilliantly wrote o c's. Okay.
Blayne:So I I had pulled out kind of the three big ones. Hawk, who I just I know he would treat me right. Like, he I know you and I have talked, and we've been like, we don't write ugly characters because, like, I like to imagine hot people, like, sue me while I'm, like, sitting with them in my head for hours and hours and days and days and years and years. They I'm sorry. They're hot.
Blayne:Like, sorry, not sorry. But I just oh, Hawk is such daddy vibes sometimes.
Jo:I I know. And I said, I I really Meet
Blayne:me a man like Hawk.
Jo:Hawk healed my daddy issues.
Blayne:Like Same. Same. Like, okay, George Michael Potter figure. Like, I'd be ugh.
Jo:He's like but that's the thing. I think I I kind of it's funny because I was initially, when I first wrote the sort of, like, big arc of, like, Harry's work life, I always knew sorry. I always knew that Julia would die. And in my head, at the beginning, I was like, I think the real mentor is going to be Robert. Like, in my head, that's where it was going.
Jo:But then, you know, like Robert is not the kind of character that you can actually use as a mentor. Like, I think he's a good cop, but he's not someone Harry would connect with.
Blayne:I agree.
Jo:And the more I wrote that character, the more I realized that that wasn't working. So I had this idea of like, I always knew that Harry was going to be a hit wizard later on. And I always knew that he was going to be making that choice a little bit impulsively just because he liked the guy who was heading that department that they had met during Quidditch.
Blayne:Which is so hairy.
Jo:Yeah. And so it was kind of like, Okay, he's going to be this guy who plays Quidditch with him and who's gonna talk to him about his work and he's gonna click and that's it. And then when I started writing Hawk, I was like, oh, that's the father figure. I was like, oh, that's the mentor. That's the father figure.
Jo:Because also he's younger than Robert's. He's close enough in age to Harry that like he would be able to speak to him, but also old enough that like he would have more experience. He also comes in in the fic, like not in terms of necessarily years because he comes in like two or three years prior to Harry and Ginny having kids. But in the fic it feels like less time because those chapters, you know, it's like one chapter per year. And so he comes in like maybe a chapter and a half before Ginny gets pregnant.
Jo:And he's like this kind of chill guy. Like, he's very good at his job, which Harry loves. He is a husband, a father. His family is very important to him. They have the same kind of values.
Jo:And so I was kind of like, oh, that connects really well. And so Hawk ended up taking over what I had originally planned for Robert's because I was like, I think that kind of clicks better. Do you know what I mean?
Blayne:Oh, completely. No, I think I think Hawk is so I mean, you talked about the like the age thing and like needing to be, you know, far enough away in age where it's like he's still sort of a father figure, but young enough where they're able to connect. And I almost in that way and I know that, like, you know, he was the same age as as Harry's parents who had him when they were obnoxiously young. So, like, I almost see Hawk in a way kind of fulfilling this, like, almost like the gap that that Sirius left of, like, Harry seeing him as, like, almost kind of father brother as, you are an older adult to me, but, like, you are also someone who I can, like, connect with. And it's like, Hawk is, like, you know, family man and this, that, and the other.
Blayne:And but, like, also, like, he's kinda cool. And so he's like, he's like this really great blend of, I think, all of the really good parts of Sirius that were really good for Harry. And then all of the really good parts of Lupin that were really good for Harry. And I think that, like, it almost scratches that kind of, like, like, really father figure itch for him in a way that also is kind of, like, helping hit on these things that, like, were really important about these other parental fit like, relationships, like, parental figure relationships he had in his life.
Jo:Yeah. A 100%.
Blayne:Julia, my heart. I literally you mentioned that she's only in two chapters. It feels like she's in half the book. Like, that's how big she is, and she just and I I don't I don't know if it was like like I I just I don't know what it is about it because, like, looking back on on, you know, the length that Castles is now, but, like, I I remember you were about, like, two thirds of the way through Castles, and you said you're like, she's only in two chapters. And I was like, you have to be lying.
Blayne:You are a dirty little liar. And I went back, and she is in two chapters. No. She's in, like, a chapter and a half.
Jo:Yeah. She starts So she appears at the very end of chapter four, like the last quarter of chapter four. And she dies in the first quarter of chapter six.
Blayne:I just I think it's such a testament to the way that you like you write OCs because I think, I mean, again, OCs get such a bad rap because everyone's so used to them being, like, these, like, shitty self insert characters or, like, not thinking about, like, why you would need to introduce a new character into the narrative, which, like, you can cl- you could tell Ecrude did because, like, look at the whole C above discussion about Hawk. But like, I don't know. I, I, I do think that there is an element of like, when you're working with canon characters, like once they start living in your head, like, yes, it is Harry, but it is like Joe's interpretation of Harry. Yes, it is Harry, but it is, you know, Nargle's, Blaine's interpretation of Harry. And like, that's kind of the fun of reading the same characters over and over and over again is what sort of textures are people gonna bring to it.
Blayne:Like, I don't know if you find it different writing a character that's that's already been created versus, like, completely writing from scratch and, like, getting to create your own. Like, like, how do you see that process?
Jo:I don't think it's particularly different. I think, obviously, like for the canon characters, you have, a canon idea of what they who they are. But I think for a lot of people, differs. Like, I know my interpretation. Again, as you interpretation of Harry isn't necessarily someone else's interpretation of Harry.
Jo:But I think like the only thing that has ever made me nervous in castles was when I knew someone was going to be important, but I knew they wouldn't be able to be there for a long time. So like, because I needed people to care about them for something to happen. So the two people that I really stressed about were Julia and Naren because I knew that they were both going to be very important to the story, but I wouldn't have that much time to build them up because Naren is only really in one chapter. She's only really in 23 and she has to be She is very important because she has to be the reason why Lily goes Well, one of the reasons why Lily goes to war. And Julia, I knew that her death was going to be this massive turning point.
Jo:So the nervousness that I felt was like, okay, I have to build these people up so that people really care about them. But also, I have a chapter to do it. And that is hard. That is really hard. And because you don't want to go too heavy handed either.
Jo:With Julia, she's got what, total probably six scenes? Because you can't also be spending all of your time with them or else people can tell.
Blayne:Right, right. Then it's like, Okay, they're gonna die. Alright, goodbye.
Jo:So it's of like this weird thing of like, you need people to care, but you also can't be spending all of your time with that character. And so you need to really make the scenes in which they are count. And I think, you know, it's the same thing with Julia. You know, there's the whole end of chapter four that is, you know, that where you really get to see her personality, the way that she behaves in the way that she helps Harry and her story, her personal story and how that is relevant to Harry. And then, you know, you've got that scene where she, you know, where they're at the restaurant where you see really her, her again, her personality.
Jo:She's fun, but she's also like helping him, you know, with his anxiety of like, am I going to get attacked and all that? And she's teaching him like surveillance and things like that. So you kind of get these like very important moment that really counts. And same thing with Ner and like you get that first scene where like she, you know, she's a little girl and she you're kind of like what the hell is she doing there on your on her own? And then you find out that her mom's there.
Jo:And then there's the second scene with Harry where this is the only scene where she and Harry really talk. But it's a massive scene because it's like the scene where like she's telling him I'm going and I'm going to go back. And there's this underlying question which you really see on rereads, even though I think on first read, don't really see it. But like this underlying question of like, oh my God, is Lily going to go with her? And so that whole scene also, I really needed it to count.
Jo:I really needed her to shine because I needed people to understand why Lily would make that decision. And so I think that's kind of like the difficult thing about fanfic, is a lot of times, like, you have these characters who have to be relevant and who are OCs, but they can only be there for a very reduced amount of time because they're not the primary, like, they're not the main characters of the fanfic.
Blayne:Yeah. I think what makes Speaking of the Neuron scene with Harry, like, almost the one scene where it's just the two of them. I think why it works so much and it can stand as the one scene because how much it parallels like what we see in Canon of like the few instances of Harry speaking with the adults before he goes off to his own war. It's, I mean, like, again, speaking to the kind of like readers getting the texture of what you meant in a scene before they necessarily like get like the meat really of what you mean, so much of like what makes that beautiful blowback of when Lily leaves is you're like, that's why that scene felt so familiar. That's why this entire thing feels so familiar.
Blayne:Like as, you know, reading it through the first as a reader, you're like, why is this scene hitting so hard? And I and I think it's not until she leaves and Lily goes as well that and I love the red herring that you give of like, oh, is it Lily and Neron are spending so much time together because they're a couple? And the way that, like, Harry and Ginny are like, we just went this without. We know it's not that. She would tell us.
Blayne:But, like, this kind of, like, almost, like I don't know. You don't fake the reader out because it's not this it's not like the narrative. It's like Harry and Ginny themselves don't even believe that's what it is. But, like, you do kinda get this, like, for lack of a better word, Harry just be like, I don't know, just girly shit. Like, it's just sort of like, I'm not I'm not gonna get this.
Blayne:Like, there's, you know, there's something kind of going on here, but I don't. But him which is so funny for him, for his daughter being basically his clone. Like, it's so funny that his brain does not go in a way that he actually acknowledges she's going to leave. She's going to go with them because he was Nehran. He was the one who had the big destiny.
Blayne:He never had to make that choice. He never had to be the one who's, I'm going to leave everything behind and go fight a war that isn't mine. I don't know. I just, I think you nail, like personality was so absolutely infused in, like, every single moment that we get to see them. And there are just such these beautiful, you know, flashbacks almost, these little textures of of canon that, like, tickle your brain in just such a good way.
Blayne:Don't even realize it's happening until it's already happened.
Jo:Yeah. And like the thing is in that scene where, you know, Harry and Ginny are kind of talking about it and being like, they dating? And Harry's like, Oh, well, she'd tell us, right? Like because she's seen how we were with Alba, she'd tell us. And talking about Ginny, the narration says There's something fleeting in Ginny's gaze.
Jo:He recognizes it from his second year in Hogwarts. Her smile is fake. And it's like that kind of that's the look of terror. I think that is the moment where she understands when he kind of says that to her and she's like, well, he's right. Like she would tell us.
Jo:So it's not that. And so I think that's the moment to me. That's the moment where she understands. But again, she's not going to say it because it's not something that you can say.
Blayne:No. Oh, no. Well, it's almost like if you speak it into existence, it's going to happen.
Jo:Yeah. Like, they're never going to say it because they can't say it. But I think it's that moment where she realizes and like, that's the look of terror on her face being like, oh my gosh, like, and not being able to voice it again because she can't. Yeah. I don't know.
Jo:We just got on tangent.
Blayne:We can okay. So we're talking about OCs who, like, don't spend a lot of time with us in the story. That's what
Jo:we're talking about.
Blayne:I know. Right? Like, the Celtic nod of conversation. We'll get back to it eventually. A character who does spend a lot of time with us on the page, Osi, is Mia, who Yes.
Blayne:I just wanna say once and for all, justice for Mia. Harry was in his fuck boy era. We like, they all go through it in their twenties or, you know, in their late teens, early twenties. It was bound to happen to even our sweet little boy, and he just ruined that girl's life. I'm like, poor fucking Mia, man.
Blayne:She she was like, I finally met a good one. And he's just, like, caught up on his ex like a boy. I chances for Mia, girl. I hope you're doing well in Paris with your absolutely incredible fashion line. Hope you just did well at fashion that happened recently.
Blayne:She's showing with Schiaparelli. They're hanging out backstage. Oh, justice for Mia. She deserves it.
Jo:Oh, a 100%. I felt and I and I know, like, I had the unfortunate idea to say to people that I had written a scene that later got deleted about like what happened to her later. But I think the thing that's interesting about Mia to me is that I think a lot of people online want me to say that she's Okay. I think JKR said this about George that, like, a lot of people would be like, oh, is George okay, though? Like, tell me he's okay.
Jo:And and, like, Mia, I mean, like, objectively speak, that was bad. Like, it's like and it happened in a bad time. Like, she's 21. Those kinds of relationships, like, they stick with you. And Mia's not okay.
Jo:Like, I'm sorry to say. I don't think I don't think Mia like, it's I think she's okay in the long term, obviously. And like, you know, I think she has her own life and but I also think like that kind of puts her off dating for a very long Oh, God.
Blayne:Yeah. I think I think that her relationship with Harry is the one where like, she's now in her thirties. She's like absolutely killing it. She's out with her girlfriends. She's had one too many martinis.
Blayne:And she's like, what? Just like, I don't know why Harry was such a dick. And all of her friends are like, okay. Time to take you home. When she brings up when she brings up Harry, it's time to take her home.
Blayne:Like, that's that's her cue. And I I I do think and I'm, again, talking about, like, this idea of, like, realism versus, like, realistic because I I I have no interest in realism, but I'm very interested in realistic. And I think that that is incredibly realistic. Like, who hasn't gotten just absolutely emotionally terrorized by, like, the boy they were in love with when they were 21? Like, they're demons.
Blayne:Like, I just I think that that's and you're you're not okay from that. Like, you you move on and you, like, figure your shit out. But I don't know. I feel like you even get to a point where you're just like, oh, yeah. Like, they had their own shit.
Blayne:I'm just gonna be glad I let them do this. Like, I don't know. I just I really I I enjoyed I enjoyed not getting more of Like, I know that's horrible because I absolutely adore her, but I think it's just such a strong choice because that is what those situations This are is someone who's immensely important to you and then they're just gone. Yeah,
Jo:and that's the thing. Like, I think a lot of people want her back, it like in, you know, and I've gotten like countless on ins about Mia being like, is Mia coming back? Like when And they're like, no, she's not.
Blayne:Yes. Because,
Jo:you know, that's not that that you know, when and Harry is like a dig to the very big I'm be so mad. Like, when he when they have this, like, goodbye scene in the on the front steps, and he's like, we could stay friends. And I'm like, oh my god, let me kill you with my bare hands. Like, just leave her alone.
Blayne:I mean, he might as well just be like, it's not you, it's me. Like, I just, I don't know. I'm, like, really busy at work right now. Like, I just, like, he's such a fuck boy. Oh, but it's so it's so good.
Blayne:So it's so true. Honestly, I think that this those chapters are, like, the best defense anyone's ever written to fuck boys because, like, Carrie's not trying. He's not trying to be one. He just is. Like and I think that there is, again, something that's, like, really realistic about that, like, not to jump on a complete fucking tangent.
Blayne:But like I you see so much this like mental healthification, like the therapyification of the way that people talk about interpersonal relationships, romantic, familial, platonic. And this like, oh, you know, they're a narcissist and they're a sociopath and they're this, that and the other. I'm like, no, sometimes we just hurt each other and that's shitty and we don't mean to, but we do. And I just, I loved so much that like, yeah, objectively, like Harry is a shit in that relationship and like honestly really shouldn't have been in in the first place. Like, Homeboy was not in a place.
Blayne:He's like pining over Ginny still. And he's just like, I guess I'll be with you too. Like, it's
Jo:just- Yeah. He's, like, fighting with Ginny. He's borderline suicidal.
Blayne:And he's just like, oh, guess I'll, like, hook up with my neighbor and, like, basically live with her now. And, I mean, he really does use her as, like, an emotional crutch, and I don't I don't think that he fully understands really how much he's doing that because men don't see women as people. But I just, like, I don't know. I I I just I I think that that situation and that relationship is, like, so rich and, like, so beautifully complex. And, like, Mia is someone who is so sympathetic without being, like, a dormant.
Blayne:And I just I just I enjoy her characterization, like, so, so much.
Jo:I think what I really wanted from her was, like, I wanted her and Harry to both benefit from this relationship, and I wanted both of them to learn something. And I think what Harry learns is very obvious. Like, you know, he learns to basically understand that he's being a football, basically. But she what she learns from it is what he's very good at, which is, like, standing up for herself and knowing to put limits. Because she is such a people pleaser.
Jo:And I think a lot of people are at that age.
Blayne:Yeah. She's like a 20 year old girl, of course she did.
Jo:Yeah. She's a 21 year old girl who has a complicated relationship with both her parents. And also, I think what I really wanted to get out of Mia is she's so lonely. And the reason why I wrote her like that is I think a lot of people, when you talk to them, like about university and college and all that, they're always like: Oh my God, best time of my life. It's always supposed to be the best time of your life, right?
Jo:And actually, to be honest, I have never been as lonely as I was in college. I think this is actually a very common experience. Talking to people and kind of like diving into it, like now that I'm 31, a lot of people are now coming out being like, oh, I was so lonely when I was 30 And I think because you're sort of having this like break off with your parents, right? Like your parents are no longer they're kind of, you know, they're not telling you what to do anymore. They shouldn't be.
Jo:Or if they are, it's annoying. And at the same time, you haven't really figured out who you are, what you want. And there's a massive amount of pressure put on you because you need to figure out your life, you need to know what you're going to do after college. And obviously, this is kind of made worse for Mia, in a way, because of her financial situation. But I think that's the case for a lot of people as well, there's finances going into that.
Jo:And she's also in a school, in an industry and a social circle that is not her own. She grew up very working class and she is in this, she says it at one point, like her, the people in her class, no people like Vivian Westwood and things like that. And so she is, she feels completely out of her depth. And she's so lonely. And in a weird way, that's what Harry and her bond over as well is like, he's incredibly lonely.
Jo:She is incredibly lonely. And so they both but like the way it manifests in her is that she is such a people pleaser that she's like, literally being like, ready to do anything, not to be lonely. And the way that she learns from him is that she sees him being not a people pleaser. And she's like, actually, I need to stand up for myself in this relationship and in the world as well. And it's kinda weird because when I built Mia's character, I built it backwards.
Jo:I knew what she was going to learn. And so I built her personality on that basis. I was like, this is someone who is going to learn this from Harry and so she needs to be like this in order to learn it. But I think that the reason why she's so relatable is that a lot of people have been there like and she was interesting to write for me because I was never that kind of people pleaser like that's just not my personality. So it was also interesting for me to write because I was, you know, it's kind of like stepping into someone else's shoes and trying to understand them and stuff.
Jo:But yeah, think that's why like people relate to her loneliness and like to that fear that she has.
Blayne:There is just like no greater damage than what like two lonely people do to each other. I swear. Yeah. Like, it's you're just always, like, enacting your own shit. I love the bit that you bring up about loneliness at that age.
Blayne:Like, God, if anyone is listening to this and they are under the age of, like, 28 and your brain is not yet fully formed, like do not buy the hype. I swear all of the like college is the best years of your life and like your early twenties are the best years. It's new year's Eve It is so much pressure. Is, it's like, you better have a great fucking midnight and you better be in an amazing outfit and you better do these incredible things. And you have one chance to This get it is the one time it's gonna become this year.
Blayne:And it's, it's so much pressure and like, what? And it just, it's, it just drives people, like, mad, and it it makes them feel like they are the only people feeling this just incredibly common emotion. I do. I think that that's why Mia is so you know, she stands out so much and she is so relatable. It's just she's such a quintessential, like, early undergrad, you know, almost even, like, early postgrad kind of a feel.
Blayne:Like, it's just it's so, so well done.
Jo:Yeah. She's in her last year of uni. So that's kinda, you know, that's exactly
Blayne:Yeah. And it's just and you're like, oh, girl. The the nightmare is just about to start. Buckle up. You'll hit 30, though.
Blayne:The patriarchy lies to you, and they we're closing the loop from the last conversation we had where we were both about to turn 30. The patriarchy lies to you. It's fucking fantastic. You don't give a shit about anything. I'm like, someone fucks with me, and I am like, okay.
Blayne:Bye. Like, it's just it's so talk about people pleasing. I don't know what bone it is that dissolves in your body the moment you turn 30, but that bone is gone. And you're just like, whatever, fuck you get mine. Like, it's so good.
Blayne:Ugh, girls, don't fear it. It's incredible. The men are lying to you. Like Harry, the men are lying to you and they're One being of the things that I love so much about Castles, and I think a lot of, you know, published and fanfic works have like tried to kind of play in this to varying degrees of success is how much you, like, interweave real world events and you have this incredibly complicated system of magical government. I don't know if it's complicated just because I'm an American and the British government is completely impenetrable to me.
Blayne:I don't understand it. Why are there wigs? But, like, I can imagine that, you know, you and I were, what, both, like, seven, eight when nine eleven happened. Like, like every American, I have my I remember exactly where I was that day. I was home school.
Blayne:I was home from school six, so I watched the whole thing happen live. You know, it was at an age where it's like you're not you're you're forming memories and you're forming impressions, but you're not forming full understandings of what's happening at the time. Like, I imagine there was a good bit of research involved in, like, figuring out these magical systems of government to what, you know, coming to further unders I know that, like, nineeleven and Tony Blair and George Bush are, like, your Roman empire. So imagine the research happened before castles. But, like, I don't know.
Blayne:I always find the conversation around when to research and when to stop and what to research and, like, how much to include because I feel like you could you could you could pretend that you're writing and actually just sit and research and research and research your whole years away and then die and then you've never written your thing. You feel like you're accomplishing something. So, I don't know how that whole process was like for you.
Jo:Yeah. I mean, Lanny and I kind of talked about this in the research episode, but I'm not a researcher. Like, I don't really like it. I don't. I know a lot of people find pleasure, as you said, in like going on tangents and like researching and researching and researching and researching.
Jo:I hate research and I hated research when I was in uni as well. This is coming from someone who has two master's degrees, I hate research with a passion. But I think it was passive research. So I think from the age of 16 to the age of 24, 25, I was very, very I don't want to say politicised because I'm still politicised, but I was very news heavy, always reading the news aware of like every little scandal, every little thing, every little like discussion, everything that was happening in the world. Was somehow aware Like of I was a news junkie.
Jo:But at the same time, I wasn't like really politicised. Like it wasn't something that I would It was news, but it wasn't necessarily politics. I mean, I was always like left leaning and stuff, but I wasn't as politicised as I am now. Casals is also very news heavy. Like, it's like there's this scandal with this, like, politician who's like saying this and that.
Jo:And some of them I just saw from like French politics as well, which I knew a lot of people wouldn't know. Not necessarily consciously, but I used like a lot of like that sort of experience when I was younger of like following the news and having this sort of backup plan of like everything that could happen in the news, I think. But I think also like in terms of research, I will research details. So, you know, for instance, for Iraq and like for 09:11 and stuff, did research, but it was kind of like research on like particular events. Know, it was like, oh, what was the chronology again?
Jo:Like, what was the time? What? You know, that kind of thing. Because that that's the kind of thing that you forget, you know? It's like, when did the UN invoice, like, go and then leave and then go again and leave again?
Jo:Like, you know? So that would be the kind of research that I do, but, like, the big sort of vibes and the big ideas and the big events and the ideas around, like, you know, politics and stuff are kind of just vibes, to be honest. But again, they're informed by stuff that I've been absorbing for years and years and years. But, yeah.
Blayne:I think the news thing is is so interesting because, again, say what you will about JK and that that's 16 episodes. But one of the things I think she does fantastically in the books is how she builds how, like, how news media can affect public perception. Like the way that she, and it's one of the great things everyone always is like, you know, why are the Marauders not covered more in movie three? Why is, you know, you know, why is Ludo Badman not in movie four? One of the things that I so wish would have been carried through in the movies, because I think it is such a key part of the books and like what makes the book so, so damn good is how the little like baby stories, the little, like, you know, gossipy kind of rag mag, like tabloid fodder stories about Harry feed into this narrative.
Blayne:I mean, Fudge even says at the very end of the fourth book when Harry's in the hospital of like, know, oh, like all these stories, he's like fainting in the middle of classes and throwing all these fits and he's gotta be mad. And Harry's like, you've been reading Rita Skeeter, haven't you? And Lupin then, even in the beginning of the fifth book is like the prophet is basically taking the seeds of what Rita Skeeter did and running with them and how that then can be used to extremely dangerous and effective propagandistic efforts. And I think that, and she filters that through kind of then throughout the books. I love that Castle has that flavor.
Blayne:I almost feel like you get that with like Ginny and Ginny's story with the press. And like, I just, I don't know. I love so much how newsy, how newsies Castles is because it takes that thread that JK starts in the book and just, like, runs with it. It's so, so fascinating.
Jo:Yeah. I agree. And I think I always say, like, JK Rowling was very interested in the media. She was not interested in law at all.
Blayne:Yeah. Not in the
Jo:slightest.
Blayne:Or The amount
Jo:world building that goes into building the media. Because she doesn't only build the prophet. She also builds like, you know, the quibbler and like all these little things. And it's the length at which she goes to like build these things. And then there's like two trial scenes and you're like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Blayne:And it's so disappointing.
Jo:As a lawyer, it's so disappointing because you're like, there's so much you could have done to make this a fucked up system that works. Like, that doesn't work, but, like, that works in a way that it does Travels along. Yeah. But, like, she just completely did not give a fuck.
Blayne:I just I feel like every time I, like, reread sections of castles, particularly the ones where you talk about, legal systems or government, I am like, yeah. Yeah. I'd you have to have a law degree to write this. Like, I just I just legitimately, I'm like, I could not write this. I would have to go to law school.
Blayne:Like, it's like, I'm l woodzing it to be able to write a book now. Like, court systems, the legal systems, like, you you start like, I I couldn't even tell you if it was wrong or right. I'm like, I trust you. I absolutely trust you. Like, but just you've got you've got such an an authoritative voice when you write about that, that, like, you could be dead fucking wrong.
Blayne:And I would have absolutely no idea because it's so confident. And I don't mean confident if you don't know what you're talking about, but just like, I don't know. I mean, kind of loop it back to like the research bit and the like, like the vibes are strong and, you know, may that maybe be a lesson for everyone. Yeah. Fake it till you make it.
Blayne:If you can't go to law school to write a new system of magical government and the a new system from which the magical, like, legal system is derived. Just fake it till you make it, babes. It worked for JK. On on vibes. So castles is an incredibly thematic work.
Blayne:And, like, you and I talked about that numerous, numerous times. And I just, like I don't know. I always whenever I think about, like, big meaty works, like, ones that are really, like, here to, you know, capital s, capital s, say something. I always think of that, like, absolutely, to put it frankly, deranged quote from one of the fucking Game of Thrones showrunners where it was themes are for eighth grade book report. And I just, I oh my god.
Blayne:I can't tell you how angry it makes me. Like, literally, it's like one of those where if I'm like, I'm kind of pissed off about something stupid, so I need to, like, channel it into something else. I legitimately think of that quote, and I, like, am properly angry for, like, a good, like, seventy two business hours because it's just, I don't know, just completely to me, like you is completely like what art is about. Anyway, like art without theme is like AI generated bullshit. Like that's why we hate AI so much.
Blayne:Again, that's 17 more episodes we could talk about is AI and art. I just I I don't know. I think they and you kind of talked about this, like, with, you know, how the idea of castles, like, came to you. One of the things that's that's to me is so strong about this work is the way that you really do get at. And through the length, I think you're really able to really dig into it and really get at this and really show how much this happens is the way that war is cyclical and yes, we learn, but war also learns.
Blayne:And to me, it just it ties so well in with that scene at the very beginning of Half Blood Prince with the Mughal Prime Minister, where the Mughal Prime Minister is like, you know, you're wizards. Why can't you just defeat this? And he's like, you forget, like, the the other side has magic too. It's this, you know, the what's the quote? Like, the long arm of justice.
Blayne:Like, you know, it's it's long, but it eventually bends long arm of time eventually bends towards justice. Like, two steps forward, one step back kind of a thing. Like, I don't know. I just I love so much how much council explores that. I like I don't know if you have any, like, thoughts on, like, what you wanted to show having changed from Harry's parents' war to Harry's war to his daughter's war to you know, I mean, you're you're writing way out in the future.
Blayne:2028 doesn't even sound like a real year. Like, we'll all be on the moon then. I know it's four years away. That's a lie. But, like, I don't know.
Blayne:Like, where do you see war going? How do you see that cycle? Like, what about that interests you? Why is that sort of a theme that you have to pick up?
Jo:I think it's funny. I think war I think there's people who are fascinated with war itself. Like when I, you know, when I hear Lanny talking about her work and like when she, you know, talks about Merry Men in particular, like I think she has an interest in like war and like what it, you know, what it does to people and the kind of how horrible it is. That's not really my interest. My interest has always been like, why do people fight?
Jo:And we glorify these stories of people fighting, right? Like of the hero, the idea of like standing up for what's right and stuff. And a lot of that is myth. Like, you know, 90% of people when put in that situation, actually will collaborate with the regime and will try and survive, will do what they need to survive. And to a certain extent, that is a little bit Ginny's storyline, although not necessarily, but, you know, there is an element of that.
Jo:So it's like you do what you need to do to survive. But at the same time, it is also undeniable that there's always a very small percentage of people who will fight and who will decide to stay and who will decide to fight in the name of what's right. And that's not a myth either. It's a myth at scale. Like, it's a myth to say that it's the majority of people because that's not true.
Jo:But they do exist. And I've always been kind of fascinated by that. Like, what makes it so that this one person will fight, will stay and will fight? Like, when you look at figures like, for instance, someone like Navalny in Russia, like, you know, the journalist who basically died recently. And you're kind of like, why make your life so hard?
Jo:Like, 90% of people in Russia are not fighting this, even if they're not happy, even if they're not agreeing with the regime, they're not actively fighting this, why you? That's always been a very interesting question to me, and so I think that's kind of the question that Castles asks, and I'm not sure I have the answer. It's like, why does Lily go to why does she befriend Naren? Like, why is it about her that makes it that she is going to be this person's friend and ultimately choose to go to war with her? Why does Ron fight?
Jo:Why does Hermione fight? We know why Harry fights. He doesn't have a choice, but like all these people do have a choice. I've always felt like that was what really fascinated me and what I write about over and over and over again. Why do people make these choices?
Jo:Why is there a subsection of people who do that? And it's like, there's this quote that I love. This is like, myself, awarding myself. No, oh
Blayne:my God. Bitch. Toot the horn, let's go.
Jo:But there's this quote that I love when Harry gives an interview to Laura, and he's like, I have a natural proclivity for the resistance. And I've always felt
Blayne:I love that.
Jo:I'm like, I have a natural proclivity to wonder why the resistance exists. Like it's
Blayne:like, why
Jo:why are these people fighting? And, you know, and and you kind of find that with Ginny as well. Like, it's kind of why do you choose to give yourself up? Because that's what she does. Right?
Jo:She makes kind of the same choice as Harry in different circumstances of like giving herself up to protect the people she loves and not only her, like herself get killed, but also he's threatening her family. He's threatening Harry. And why do you not just save yourself and let other people die for you? Why? And similarly, when she chooses to write the book, it's like, they've got this very comfortable, quiet life at that point.
Jo:She has her career. She's famous. She's famous, but like the press isn't right. Isn't really writing anything about them anymore. They have three kids to protect.
Jo:Like, why did she choose to, as Harry puts it, jump in front of a train? And I don't know. Like, I'm trying to get to the answer, but I don't know. And I think war in castles is kind of a metaphor of that broader and it's a great setting to answer that broader question of like, why are people willing to sacrifice not only their lives but also sometimes their livelihoods and in other circumstances, their comfort and stuff for other people or for the things that they believe in to their own detriment. And I just, you know, we glorify that narrative and it's not necessarily a narrative that I like being glorified.
Jo:And I think because I think it kind of it poses the question of like, should we really be glorifying this? Like, is this a trait that people should be aspiring to? I don't know. But I just I find it so interesting. I think that's what I wanted to kind of reflect throughout.
Jo:But I think in terms to come back to your question, which is like what I wanted to change. I wanted the inevitability of it to be accepted. Like, I think that's what happens is, you know, when you look at James and Lily senior, they are people who are fighting war for their children and, like, for Harry and, like, for, you know, for the future. And they're not accepting this, like, status quo. And they're not accepting the inevitability of it.
Jo:And I think Harry comes to accept that it is part of life and that that fight is part of life and that people will always be fighting for the things that they believe in. And there's both awful, awful things in war. But there's also that beauty of the human condition that is, you know, we're fighting for something that we believe in. And both sides, a lot of the times are fighting for something that they believe in. And I think there's, there's something inherently human about it.
Jo:I think, you know, when when Lily does the museum, it's to talk about that, like to be like we fight things and it's not always pretty and it's not always good, but we do. And that kind of acceptance of that phenomenon is I think what she has and what Harry grows to have that maybe wasn't there before.
Blayne:Oh, it's so you I'm just like spinning. There's so it's there's, like, such richness and, like, all of that. No. Completely. Like, I think that one of the you I mean, you mentioned the, like, I don't know if I've ever answered it, and I I don't think I can think of anything, like, less satisfying than, like, a book who answers its central question.
Blayne:Really think that that's why do we continue to puzzle over the great works of literature of which Castle shall be among? You look at Anna Karenina and it's like a girl loves a boy, she throws herself in front of a train. That's the story. And it's just, it's so much more than that. And I think that that is the beauty of getting at these larger themes is that it allows you to go into these really rich questions to which they're not gonna answer.
Blayne:I don't know, I always think that writers of, you know, any writers who are worth their salt are, like, great philosophers. They're great thinkers because you are I mean, you're playing at this question of, like, what is it to put your life in danger or aside for, I mean, not even necessarily a person, like an idea. Yeah. I mean, you think of I mean, we we talked about this, but you think of, like, Hermione and Ron when they're in Harry's war. Yeah, Harry is being I know there's the great scene in Half Blood Prince where Dumbledore is like, you know, they have the whole conversation in the office and he's like, It's imperative that you get this.
Blayne:Harry kind of ends it as it's the difference between being dragged into the arena and walking with your head held high. I just, I love that scene so much of like, you know, it is Harry's war. He has to be there. He is choosing to be there. But he's, he is the one who, who, if he wants to stop this, which he absolutely does, he has to be the one to do it.
Blayne:Ron and Hermione do not have to. And, like, Ron to the sense this is his world. So, you know, he has a bit of a stake in it. Hermione, she is of two worlds. She could very easily go back and be amongst the muggles.
Blayne:And I know that I've said this before, but got it bare saying again that Harry's daughter, Lily, like, throughout her arc and her story and her war, you get that she is Harry's daughter. She is rash and she is impulsive. You get that she is her mother's daughter. You get that she is Ron's niece, but, God, do you get that she is Hermione's because she does not have to be there. It's a war that is happening on the complete other side of the world that does not involve directly involve her friend is safe.
Blayne:Her friend is there. And it's the once that changes, everything changes for her. And I just I I think that there's so much to be said for, like, why do we fight fascism? Why do we fight? Something that I think a lot about as an American.
Blayne:Why do we you know, what what is it it for? What and I I think of and I'm gonna recommend a a series, which if people have not watched it, I don't care if you're not in the Star Wars fandom. Go watch Andor because I think it it oh my god. It plays with these same themes, and there is this line that when you it's like one of those where you go and you remember the quote and you're like, oh, some, you know, grand thinker must have said this. And you're like, no.
Blayne:This was written this is, like, for, like, a Disney IP. Like, what the fuck? Where it's, I burn myself to make sunsets I will never see. And you're like, that's why and it plays with the same question. And I honestly I'm just, like, putting two and two together of, like, why I probably liked it so much.
Blayne:Like, it's it's got that kind of castle's vibe of, yeah, like, why are you going to risk everything for something that you might not see the benefits of. And it's, like, because you have to. Like, it's just but in that same point, I really do believe that, like, we all think ourselves capable of or willing to step up and fight in something like this. And I and I saw a quote that just sticks with me and it will stick with me forever of like capital l liberalism is like being against all injustices except the one that is currently happening. And then you pretend that you were against it all along.
Blayne:Like, and I just, I think, I think so much. I think that there's, there are a lot of things happening currently where we will all look back upon it and have kind of pretended to have been against it from the jump. It requires courage that if you are not someone who is involved in it or directly affected by it, like what in that, what in you makes you go be a part of that, go fight for that? And I think that quality in people is just something that's so absolutely fascinating.
Jo:Yeah. And I think like to your point, I think this is kind of getting into the castles au kind of territory. But I think had Lily not met Naren, like had Naren not been there, I don't think Lily would have gone. Do you know what I mean? Like she would
Blayne:have I completely agree.
Jo:And so it's kind of like how close does it have to be to like make it worth it? It's valid for Naren as well. Like, she is safe, but she has to go back. There's this very interesting thing that she says to Harry and Wands. It's a thing I explore a lot more in Sun Son Kurikaiu, which is the flur effect that I wrote.
Jo:But this idea of like being an immigrant and like she because she says like she she moved to The UK, she was eight or nine years old. Like she says like I'm neither I'm not really Mongolian, but I'm not really from England either. It's like, does she go back? But also she has to go back like it is her family. It is her land and it is something that matters to her.
Jo:And so Lily, Lily then is like, Well, I can't leave her alone, you know? And and I think there's this is kind of getting into another topic, but I really wanted the subplot of like, are they together or not to exist? You know, because a lot of times, like you will see a narrative, what is worth dying for is love like romantic love. It is very rarely aside from like young adult fiction, it is very rarely like friendship. And I think I wanted the press to write that they were together.
Jo:I wanted people to think they were together because then I wanted it to land that like, no, they're not. And she did this because it's her best friend and she wasn't going to leave someone she knew and someone she loved to go through that alone, even if it wasn't a romantic partner. So yeah, I think that was kind of a side plot. Yeah.
Blayne:I know, I just as I was actively reading it and you get to where the press is reporting there together. And I was I for some reason, I was like, the press never lies. This must be true. And I was like, I just was like, oh, you know, like, okay. I I I was like, damn, Harry and Ginny, like, really, the queer factory.
Blayne:Like, go y'all. Like you have your gay kids, like we love it. We love to see it. But I was just like, I was really sad at that choice because I did love so much when I was like, yeah, it's because they have just this like really beautiful close friendship. And then I was like, oh yes, that's a lie.
Blayne:I was so happy because I do agree. I think that you really only get, like, what friendship means in, like, young adult fiction when, like, and, like, specifically young adult fiction when the characters are, like, prepubescent, almost kind of going into pubescence, but then it's then it's like, oh, you know, how romantic relationships, like, entangle with friendships and this or how romantic relationships can come from friendships. And it's it's never just, like, sort of friendship in their own regard, like, that is a love that is, like, really beautiful. And I just I love when fiction explores it for adults because I do think that, we as, you know, a culture, as Western culture, don't put enough value into what your friendships mean. And so it's just I just I loved I loved seeing that.
Blayne:I thought that was so wonderful. So on Niran's War, one of the things about, kind of on how castles continues to build from the the canon books is that, that I found so, so interesting is how much you bring in, like, the outer geographical world. Like, you really like, you're really expanding. I mean, Nuran's war is happening in Mongolia. There are a slew of other examples.
Blayne:But I mean, for a book series, which, I mean, fair. She was she had a lot to get through in seven books already. It's, like, it's so even Voldemort's War, like, it is so concentrated to, like, just to The UK to the point where, like, there has been interesting fan written about, like, the other magical governments just sort of being like, y'all are on your own. Like, have fun with that, which, like, can be really interesting to explore in its own right. But, like, Harry and and the magical governments around the world are are quite involved in, you know, post nine eleven.
Blayne:Mhmm. Nuran's war is in Mongolia. There's conversations about the minister needing to have discussions with this, that, and the other head of different states. Like, how do you see kind of opening up the wars of castles? Like, are the wars from canon to the wars of castles?
Jo:Yeah. I you know, it's not really something that I thought about. Like, I just again, I think it's like the realistic mindset. Because again, like, I've said this before, but I'm not a magical world builder. Like, if I could do way with magic entirely, like, you know, a lot of the times, a lot of people are really good at, you know, making up spells, and, like, making up shops in Diagon Alley and stuff.
Jo:Like, that is not my vibe at all. I don't really get pleasure from it. I don't really like building that world. And so to me, was kinda like, well, this is how it happens in the real world. And I was trying you know, castles is like the story of me trying to slowly write magic out of the way.
Jo:Like, it's
Blayne:Okay. But literally thinking back on it, I mean, I am like, yeah. No. Castles is just like they happen to have wands. Like, you could you could you could honestly file the serial numbers off castles quite easily.
Blayne:Just never touch their wands. It's like maybe everyone's in a blue moon, but it's just like like the great systems of like, there's no, like, systems and magic or Harry does some complex spells. Like, Harry has to go deal with the mundanity of bureaucracy.
Jo:They need I was like, they need they need phones. They need computers because I can't be arsed to do this.
Blayne:It's so funny. You're just like, fuck magic. They're on Twitter. But, like, but it makes sense. Yeah.
Jo:It's like well, I think it's like I don't think there's, like, one way to do it. It kinda depends what you're interested in. Like, for me, it's just like I have read really good fics with, like, a lot of magical world building, but it's just like it's not my vibe. And so I think, like, castles is like 400,000 words of me trying to slowly write magic out of existence. And then sometimes when they need something and they can't be bothered to get up,
Blayne:they like, accurate. Not You're going through. But makes sense. Okay. But honestly, the amount of times I have, like, lost something in my house and I'm like, god fucking damn, that would be so handy right now.
Blayne:Where is this thing?
Blayne:Then I also want Twitter.
Blayne:So I would do well in the magical world of Castle.
Jo:But yes, I think that was kind of part of that, riding the world as it is. And I think to that point, I think there's a lot of people and I do get a lot of comments to that tone saying that they don't like castles because they go for fanfic for escapism and castles is everything but escapism. And I think that's a very, very fair point. Like, it's like, if that's what you're looking for in fanfic, that's not what you're going you're going to find in castles because the world gradually gets more and more like ours. To the very end, and it's funny because, like, the whole Mongolia thing, I thought it up, I think, even before Ukraine happened.
Jo:But, obviously, there's wars all the time. And it gets closer and closer. And I got so lucky with the chapter 23 when the riots happened because the riots were happening in The UK. I was like, I had that plot point planned for three years, guys. I okay.
Jo:I
Blayne:can I can I say because, like, I feel like this happens to me? I mean, I write dystopian fiction in The US, so, like, this happens to me all of the goddamn time where the Republican party legitimately take what I have, like, plotted out. Like, I literally I I you and I talked about this. I literally was writing a scene where someone fails to assassinate the, like, soon to be inaugurated president, and then literally the motherfucker almost almost like, does John Mostafa have no descendants? Like, come on.
Blayne:Like, it's he almost gets assassinated. And I'm like, this like, thank God it's, you know, it's not fanfic, so I'm not publishing it anytime soon. But I just it's I do think that that's like, do you do you kinda just what's your philosophy on that? Do you kinda just steer into the skid and are like, this is what I have had planned? Like, do you change a few things depending on what happened?
Blayne:Do you, like, purposely avoid something? Do you, you know, add in, like, a fun little wink? Like, I was writing mine, and I literally was, like, I was, like, just in a flow typing. And I was like, yeah. And then it almost brushed his.
Blayne:I was like, you cannot fucking put ear. You cannot put ear that is winking too hard. Like But you
Jo:know what? Okay. So here's my take. I think it's fine. Like, I think fine.
Blayne:I'm gonna change it.
Jo:Because I think you're building a relationship with your reader. If you're doing it with awareness of what you're saying, then it changes the meaning. Like, I think there's a lot of things in castles, especially like the way I wrote the war in Mongolia is very reflective of both the situation in Gaza and the situation in Ukraine. And I wrote it as an AN. I was like, that's on purpose.
Jo:And I think that's kind of the thing is like, that's the way I see it. If history is gonna catch up with a plot point that absolutely needs to be there like, if it's something that doesn't need to be there, then you can like, do whatever you want, delete it or keep it, whatever. But if it's a plot point that needs to be there and you're like, oh, my God, this is going to be so cliche because people have seen this happen and I was going to write this prior to this happening. Lean into it. That's what I do.
Jo:I just lean into it. And I'm like, Okay, well, when I was writing chapter 23, I was halfway through chapter 23 when the riots started in The UK. Yeah. And I was like, this is incredible. I was like, the timing is incredible.
Jo:And so I was like, well, let's just lean into it and see what happens. But also defer from it when I need to. There is stuff about that that is different because in The UK, the way it got quashed is, well, first of all, there was a lot of police intervention. And secondly, left wing people started demonstrating again. And so it started to fizzle out because the crowds were much bigger.
Jo:And that didn't happen in castles because I was like, well, that's a different vibe. Like, that's not the vibe that I was going for. But I think, yeah, think to me it's kind of, you know, when something like that happens, lean into it. Again, the only time when it really bothered me is when I wrote chapter 18 and the row like, the abortion storyline.
Blayne:I I maybe this is me being naive or, like, betraying an unlearned or, you know, an unpacked insensitivity. I don't know. Modern life is a carousel of horrors. Like, pick your horse. Someone's will be at the forefront in the photograph while others are gonna be in the background.
Blayne:Does not mean that there are less horses. I think that when writing in response to real world events, when you have them planned, I almost think, like and may maybe we don't reference, you know, the president's ear almost gets shot. Maybe that's a little too winky. But, like, I do think changing it completely, like, does a disservice to the story. I think what would have been insensitive is, like, had you cut it out, like, cut out Hermione's abortion plot line and, like, tried to move something up or move something I know I know, but, like, Lily too isn't born yet, but, like, started to make a point that, like, the story wasn't ready for.
Blayne:I mean, I think the the the part in chapter 23 was just, a beautiful moment of serendipity. Not beautiful because rides are hor like, you know, that horrible situation, but, like, you know what I mean? Of, like, how this came to be at the exact same time is just, too odd. And so, like, that is, like, great. I've got something that had already been planned.
Blayne:I I know what
Blayne:to do with this, and,
Blayne:like, this has already been, like, foretold in the story. So it's built up, and there's there's kind of a mechanism that's already, like, moving behind it. I I always think that it starts to get, like, kind of exploitative when it's a, oh, this is the issue du jour, and I am now going to, like, write something particularly in response to it, especially when I am not someone who is, like, involved in that community or involved in that, you know, in involved intimately with what is going on. Like, I I've borne witness to a couple writers who it's like, oh, you know, well, people are talking about the trans a lot. So let me write about that.
Blayne:I'm like, you don't know a trans person. Maybe you don't write about it. Like, it's it's just yeah. Like, things things like that. Like, I think that that's when things like that start to come into play.
Blayne:But I justice for Hermione's abortion, it was the right thing that she needed to do at the time, and we support her in that choice.
Jo:I also think, like, just on that topic, I also think that it's very interesting. I get comments still to the say, with people disagreeing with each other about whether or not Hermione was right to not tell Ron. It's about a fiftyfifty in terms of people who think she should have told him, and he was right to be upset, and people who think it's her buddy, her choice, she didn't have to tell him, it's her business. And I find it very interesting that even within Castles' readership, which is obviously biased because, obviously, if you're reading Castles, you're you know, you have certain opinions, I would think, or else you would have dropped out of the fic earlier than that. But I think it's very interesting that, like, even that is like a fifty fifty line.
Blayne:I think what I like about the Hermione gets an abortion storyline is that it's not, oh, you know, she tells Ron and they
Blayne:make this decision together and this, that, the other. Because I think that, I mean,
Blayne:that is some women's experience and that's obviously totally fine. But I do think that there is a lot of experience of, I kind of just go ahead and take care of this because this is something that I want for myself. And I think that when people say that they are pro choice, I think that they they do mean they are pro choice, but I think that the reality of what that choice can look like isn't always neat. I am so pro choice and like up and absolutely down. Roe v Wade should be the law of the land in America.
Blayne:Like truly do not get me started.
Blayne:I think that we should be
Blayne:able to get nine month abortions if we fucking want to. Fuck the Republican Party. Like I absolutely a 100% agree with that. I don't care. It is your body if you decide you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it.
Blayne:But I think that people can get kind of icky around it, and it cannot feel good when it is a situation which are the statistically the most common ones where it is a woman who is in a partnership, and she most of the time has a child. It's a like, oh, what, you know, you couldn't have kind
Blayne:of done this that and the other.
Blayne:You couldn't have told him. And it's like, no. To be radically pro choice, you don't have to support Hermione's decision, but you have to accept it. And I love this that like missus Weasley kind of never forgives her for it when she finds I love that because I think missus Weasley is a is a great mother, and she loves her kids, but, like, she wouldn't. She wouldn't.
Blayne:I completely don't think she would. And I just time and time again, what you do with castles is, like, really take it to these, like, really complicated messy places where, like, these characters we love are making these kind of actually gray or perceived gray decisions and, like, we all kind of have to sit with that. Like, I just I just really enjoy that. Heading back to our conversation of what we were talking about of, like, writing something that either kind of through happenstance or kind of purposely ends up brushing up against something or, you know, almost directly referencing in a way without directly referencing it, something that is happening in our real world. I know because, like, you had sort of talked a bit before we even, like, knew that this is what you're gonna be writing.
Blayne:You were asking in our little like Discord for a like area and like a kind of like questions around a faux conflict and like what it could kind of be. And I I wondered if you remembered
Blayne:Oh, remembered. I remembered. And I literally forgot until I got to this section, and I was like, fuck. I completely forgot about that. I legitimately didn't think you
Blayne:were asking this about a story. I just was like, maybe she's really interested in in things like that.
Blayne:Because I was like, how in the fuck is this gonna relate to castles? Because like Harry and Ginny were like still kind of making up at that point. Like, they were in America. But I don't know, like, any can
Blayne:you talk about that choice? Because it it it is a very purposeful choice to not have this set in because it is kind of around the same time period. Like, you you really could have had it in Palestine, in Ukraine, like, yeah. Why what your choice is to to not have it somewhere like that.
Jo:The thing is, I knew the story was going to go into the future. I knew that it was summer twenty twenty four as I was writing this. Even when I was planning it, when I did ask that question in Discord, I was like, I'm probably not going to finish this story in 2028. Like, I was like, or at least I hope so.
Blayne:Yeah. Right.
Jo:And so I was kinda like, I think the first thing was like, didn't feel comfortable writing the future. I knew that the conflict was going to have to resolve. I knew that it was gonna have to involve magic. I knew that Naren was going to be like a witch. I didn't want her to be like a mogul.
Jo:So I knew it was going to involve magic. And I also knew that, like, I wanted this conflict to end, right, because Lily had to come back. Stunning number of people thought Lily was going to die, which I think is very interesting because that was clearly not the theme
Blayne:of the story.
Jo:I was like, she was never going to live. Like, this is very clearly not the theme of castles. But anyway and so I was kinda like she was going to have to come back. And so that was what castles was about. And so I was kinda like, I don't want to write a resolution in the future to a conflict where I don't know how it's going to pan out.
Jo:So I think that was the first thing. And the second thing was like, it felt a little bit disrespectful to include magic in like a current conflict. Because there's this idea that maybe you could solve everything with magic, although that's not really the case. But I don't know, those two things really made me choose a hypothetical conflict. And the Mongolia situation has some truth to it.
Jo:Like, there is so the thing about Inner Mongolia being this province between Mongolia and China that is quite disputed and has been disputed for a while is true. It's not as disputed as Tibet, and it's like because mostly the majority the ethnic majority in Inner Mongolia is actually Han Chinese, and so there's not that many people to rebel anyway. Like, there's not that many people who are left as, like, ethnically Mongolian. Although there is still a lot. There's more people in Inner Mongolia who identify as Mongolian than in Mongolia itself.
Jo:But it's still nothing compared to the Han Chinese population. And so that situation kind of exists and I took something that exists and I also took a region of the world where I knew people wouldn't necessarily be familiar with it. So there was some truth to it, but also I wanted to make it different. And obviously there's a war there that isn't real. And I hope it never becomes real for the people there.
Jo:And I it's funny because a lot of the editing work that I ended up doing on 23 is like I had learned so much about that region. And there was like at the beginning in my first draft, there was like four pages of just lore of how the current situation mixes with magic and all of that stuff, and then I had to tune that back because no one wants to read four pages about Mongolian history! But yeah. So that's kind of what went behind my thinking. And I almost what I did consider was to make it completely fake, like, to have a fake country, basically, and, like, a fake conflict between two fake magical countries.
Jo:Like that that could have been a thing. But I also felt like that wasn't really castles. After what, like three hundred three hundred and ninety thousand words being like the kingdom of like blah blah Stan. Like, no one would have bought it because it's not really castle, so I needed to find like a middle ground between the two and I'd found it in Mongolia. And if there is anyone listening to this or who wrote castles who is from Mongolia, I am very sorry to have written a war in your country.
Jo:You don't deserve that, but I needed something. With my most sincere apologies to the nation of Mongolia. But, yeah, so so that was kind of the reasoning behind it.
Blayne:No. I think I think you've threaded it, like, beautifully. And I think that it was absolutely the right choice. Like, I you mean, you even even just saying like between two magical nations, just like
Blayne:it's like, that's interesting. That wouldn't have worked for Castle.
Jo:You know, consider things. You're like, Would I do this? Would I not do this? I never ever considered using Gaza because I felt like that was too much and it's too unstable. And also it happened after I plotted it.
Jo:I mean, obviously it's been ongoing for seventy years, but the current conflict started after I plotted that plot line. And so again, it didn't was too late. Basically, I wouldn't have done it because the first time you're here in Mongolia is chapter 19, and so, you know, by that point it was a bit too late. But I did consider Ukraine for a bit, but I was like, I don't know what situation is gonna be like in 2028, and what if I write something that resolves and then it's not? And that's disrespectful.
Blayne:Yeah. No. I I I think that that was I think especially because you are writing in something that is, like, in the, you know, far when we talk about war, but distant or near when we talk about chronology future, like, the right call because, like, best case scenario would be, like, Putin explodes and
Blayne:Ukraine is fun. And then we're like, oh, 2028,
Blayne:this isn't an issue anymore. But, yeah, I mean, God forbid, like, something worse happens, then it just it starts to feel disrespectful. I completely agree. I know we have some questions from people from Tumblr if we wanna get into those.
Jo:Yeah. So we got one question from this person who goes by Oli Petoli and it was I think we can both answer and that can be our closing remarks. We love.
Blayne:We love.
Jo:Spoken way too long.
Blayne:Grade a yapping, baby. A plus in yapping four point o graduated with honors.
Jo:But they asked so I think they only asked like favorite line and favorite scene, but I thought we could also go favorite chapter. So favorite line.
Blayne:You already know mine. You already know mine. It's it's you have written beautiful beautiful lines before it, after it. You will continue to, but I will remain haunted by, in his head, Tom Riddle kills the
Blayne:mother who mur or murders
Blayne:the mother who called him brave. I think it's just it's so well done where it is in the scene. Like, it's just oh, it's just it's it's so good. It's so it's like really when I like buckled into castles. Like, had been incredibly enjoying it up into that point, but like, that's when I was like, oh, she didn't come to play.
Blayne:Alright. Let's go. Like that like that really is the moment that I like knew this wasn't this was gonna be something special.
Jo:And I love that line. I mean, we've we've talked about it before. I've told you before that I almost didn't include it because I thought it was too on the nose.
Blayne:So good. Lesson kids, write the on
Blayne:the nose line. It's good every time apparently.
Jo:You know what, in hindsight, I think that's very good advice that you've given me throughout the years that we've known each other now is like, you were the first person who told me like, no, write on the nose. I like, I think that's true. I think to a certain extent that is true. Sometimes your best lines are the ones that are a little bit on the nose, you know.
Blayne:As long as you build up to them, as long as you earn them, they're so satisfying. They can be so, so satisfying.
Jo:Yeah. I think I don't know. I always hesitate because I think the one I'm more emotionally drawn to is to him, the '8 is about sex and funerals. Because that's kind First of the of all, that's the essence of castles. Like, is, you know, it's like sex and funerals is like good things and bad things.
Jo:And that's kind of what castles is about is, you know, good things like the life and the way that it is a succession of good things and bad things. But I think it's also like, I have an emotional attachment to it. Every time I was rereading that draft that I couldn't finish, I kept being like, fuck, that's a really good line. Like, because I wrote that when I was 17. And every time every time I came back to it, I kept being like, it's such a shame that you didn't finish this story because it's a very good line.
Blayne:It's a I mean, it's it's it
Blayne:is what made me, like, when I
Blayne:was scrolling through again, like, the the angst tags, it's what made me stop and go, woo hoo. This one. Like, it's a really, really good line.
Jo:And so I think, like, I owe it to 17 year old me to be Thank you.
Blayne:What we owe our 17 year old selves.
Jo:Yeah. You had, like, you had, like, one moment of brilliance and that was
Blayne:You know what? All the angst was worth it for the one line.
Jo:But but I think one of the ones that I really really love as well is for us for us girls, this is the way walls are fought, is just
Blayne:And the way you reveal the chapter title, like, at the end of that entire because it's just it's this long It's so long. You know, they're
Blayne:oh, no. But oh my no. I'm I've got I you we will fight about this till the day I die. I love the give me the feast. I want longer.
Blayne:I I am a size queen when it comes to chapters. Give me longer. I I love it's just it's the whole
Blayne:she's deciding to write the book. Yeah. She you know, the process of writing the book, the process of getting it out there, the blowback, the, you know, the the kind of settling almost the the start of the settling down of the blowback, and then the description of the cover and which is so, like, atonement coded. I love it. And then just and the title, the way wars are fought.
Blayne:It's so like, I'm getting chills.
Blayne:Like, it's just it's so good. And I mean, you
Blayne:would talk about, like, on the nose. Like, I think that, you know, people who are idiots could think that that's on the nose, but, like, you god. You fucking earned it. Did you ever earn it? And so it's just it it's it's perfect.
Jo:Yeah, I think like, when I wrote that line, when I first wrote it, because that's in chapter eight and then she uses it later, I didn't plan it at all, it just kinda came out, it just kinda came to me and then, because I always knew that there was going to be a book, I always knew that those letters were going to become a book. Because I wanted to play with the very obvious Anne Frank parallel, and the sort of writing in a diary and then publishing it, and it being a wall story, and also the museum later on. It's hammered in. So I always knew that there was going to be a book. And for literally months, because obviously I was planning this, literally months I was looking for a title.
Jo:I was like, what is she going to call that book? And I kept being like, oh, you know, I kept circling, I had different ideas, like, it never quite fit. And then I was like, well, obviously. I don't know, I had this moment and then the worst part is, I had this moment once and then I forgot. Because I didn't write it down.
Jo:And I was like, oh my god, had this brilliant idea and I can't remember what it was. And then, again, months later, it came back to me again and I was like, oh my god, of course. This time I wrote my notes up and like for months on end I had this like one note in my notes up that was like the way water falls.
Blayne:Oh my god, bless up. So funny.
Jo:That was just that because I was like, I just need to remember that bloody title.
Blayne:Oh my god. I'm so glad you thought of it again. It was meant
Blayne:to be. It really was then. That's when you know.
Jo:But yeah. And then so they asked also favorite scene. Do you have a favorite scene?
Blayne:I I really was trying to think about this. And I think I because I have I have a very specific favorite chapter. So we're gonna hold because there are every scene in that is my favorite. And so, that but I would say standalone scene. It's Lily bringing Harry home.
Blayne:I just I just I like, I was I was, again, re rewatching part one, and Harry's standing in front of Godric Hollow and is like, this is where they were murdered, Hermione. And it just it's where the series starts, and it's it's where Harry's story starts, and it's it's where the entirety of, you know, the second war starts. The first one ends, the second, like, starts, and it just and to, like, completely bring it around back. Because I think, again, you see in fan fiction, like, Harry goes back to Godric's Hollow. I think it's been written either, like like, it's both been written to death, but it's never been done well.
Blayne:Apologies to ones I've read. Never really quite been done well. I don't think it's it's ironically like Harry's to go back to. I think I think it's he's too close to it. And so it's his daughter bringing him back.
Blayne:Like, I don't know. There's just something that's like like from a writing perspective and like from a a character perspective that's just like so beautiful about that. And like, it's just it's just think it's just that's how you had I mean, about like, you know, inevitability. Like, that's how you had to end it. That's how this ends is is the Harry's war, like, the loop is closed on that.
Blayne:Like, there will still be wars, but like, he has gone through come out his like, his war, his daughter has gone through hers, is barely started the process of her own castles. And it's yeah. The Yeah. The this the loop is closed. The book is closed.
Blayne:This is his story. And it has finished. And it's just it's just I I just I can't believe like, I I feel like I should have seen it coming, like, because it's obviously, it had to end there. But I was just
Jo:like I told you like, I told people so many times that like, the number of times they go to that house, and they're like, no. We're not going in.
Blayne:I know. But you're just like, yeah. No.
Blayne:Of course not. Too on the nose. It's not gonna work. And like, you made it work. It was just it was just so so well done.
Blayne:It was just such a treat to read. Like, just I loved that scene.
Jo:And I I like the way that Lily, to her, it's so much easier. Like, she she goes in and she doesn't think, you know? She's like love the last line is like, I wanted it to be, I know this is weird, but I wanted it to be unremarkable because the writing in castles really wants to be unremarkable. Do you know what I mean? It's like this sort of, not stream of consciousness, but you know, it's like, I'm not someone with big words.
Jo:I'm not someone with, like, purple prose. Like, that's not my vibe. And so I was like, this is a story that's so inside his head. It's kind of like this constant stream that I was like, I don't want it to end with like this beautiful line. Do know what I mean?
Jo:Yeah. And I love that, I mean, this is again, like tooting my own horn, but like, I love the way that it's like, it's the simplicity of it. It's like Harry Beams, they rebuild another castle, he thinks. And I wanted that he thinks because it's such a recurring thing in castles. Like, it's, you know, it's one of those filler words.
Jo:Like, there's always filler words in castles of like, he thinks he reckons, like, you know, all of that And it's like, it's the kind of thing that, like, every teacher, every writing teacher will tell you to take out because it's redundant and it's not interesting and all that. But Castles kind of plays with that a lot. And so I really wanted that last line to have, you know, that kind of love for filler words that is very there in castles. Like, so I don't know. Like, I I agree.
Jo:Like, I like that scene as well.
Blayne:I'm adding something to this question,
Blayne:which what is your favorite filler word in castles? And mine is, again, in the Avada Kedavra scene of he just says brilliant. It's like, it is the most justified just I have, like, read. It's so well done. Because it is it's it's he just says, like, oh.
Blayne:Oh, so good. It's so good.
Jo:Like Another scene that I really like, because I think it it came full circle without me meaning to for it to be full circle, is the scene at the beach in chapter 21 when seven seven happens, like the London terrorist attacks after nine eleven in 02/2005. And the way that, like, Harry is away when that happens. And he is at the beach and he's gone for a run. He comes back and Ginny and James are there. And James is like a toddler.
Jo:He's playing and he's making these, you know, sand castles. And Harry makes that decision to stay and not to go back and not to go fight. And he's like, that's the difference between Nineeleven and Sevenseven, there are castles to be built out of sand. And I just, I love that scene because it's so quiet and so I don't know if there's, like, a vibe to it. And it's, like, this full circle moment where he's, like, that is not my fight anymore.
Jo:It's a massive moment. I I really, really like that scene because I think it's, like, a little bit understated, but I really I really like that.
Blayne:Yeah. Yeah. It's a big moment for him. Okay. You go favorite chapter first.
Jo:Yeah. Favorite chapter is 16. I think it's it's hard for me. Like, there's a lot there's a lot of chapters that I don't like, and there's a lot lot of chapters that I like.
Blayne:I'm going to rescue your story from you. I swear to god. I'm calling, like, writer CPS. Like, give me your child. Like The entirety
Jo:of act two, I don't really like.
Blayne:I swear. I'm gonna rescue you, little castle.
Jo:But I think I really like like, there's a bunch of chapters I really like. Like, I think chapter two, chapter six well, chapter eight, obviously. Chapter sixteen, and nineteen, 22, and 24. Those are probably like the ones that I really, really like. Yeah.
Jo:But I think out of those, I'm choosing 16 because I think it was the one that scared me the most. Because it's the road trip chapter. And I knew what needed to happen in that chapter. I knew that it was going to be the Harry and Jenny reunion. And I knew that there was they're needed.
Jo:Like, it wasn't even like there was going to be the sex scene. They are needed. And I was like, what have I done to myself that I've built this up so much? Because there's so much hanging on that chapter. Right?
Jo:It's like the chapter where they're reconciling. It's the chapter where they start working out a lot of these issues, like face to face instead of although that starts a little bit earlier, right? Like that starts in 14, but it's like the first time that they're really alone for a long period of time with just each other and where they're learning to navigate that and also navigate this like, you know, what happened to Jenny, the sexual violence of it, and like the sort of aftermath of that for the two of them. And it felt like I was, I had built, taken off and flown an a three sixty, like one of those massive massive planes around the globe and I needed to land it. And I was like, I'm never going to land this.
Jo:Like, I it was it was terrifying because I I wanted to give them the foundations that they needed to have. And that's sort of like what later became known in the fickers Michigan and like the sort of everything that happens there. And I also needed to nail that sex scene. And that was hard because I wanted I knew exactly the vibe that I wanted. I wanted to be somewhere between fanfic smart and Sally Rooney.
Jo:And I was like, I need, like, the middle ground between those two because I wanted to be romantic, and I wanted to be fanfic y.
Blayne:Mhmm. But
Jo:I also need it to be quote unquote realistic because this is castles. And also, I had never really written like a full sex scene before.
Blayne:They're so fucking difficult to write. I I would rather describe every single room I've ever set foot in than write a single I was trying to write one for my original fiction, and, like, thank god both of the characters are, like, kinda shitheads. And so I was like, okay.
Blayne:This can kinda work, but, like, oh my god. They're so difficult to write. Jesus Christ.
Jo:And it's weird to say because obviously I wrote the entirety of chapter eight and there's a few sex scenes here and there with Mia. But like, the thing is, way I wrote sex in the early chapters was very much like, it was always focused on one thing. So it's like, either you have the blow job scene with Mia that says something about Harry's trauma and stuff, or you have the moments with Amicus, but they're always moments, they're never like the full thing. That comes after it. Because that comes in 22 as well.
Jo:But 60 at that point, I hadn't written 22. And I had written like sex, but without really writing like start to finish sex. And I was like, how the fuck am I gonna land this? And especially because it was massively important to the plot, it was massively important to castles, it needed to happen in a particular way to do justice to Jenny's story as well, and Harry's story. And it was so scary.
Jo:And I think it turned out, if I may say so, quite well.
Blayne:No. It's I mean, I think writing, like, sexy sex scenes that, like, still have an element of realism to it is, like, a a nigh impossible task. Like, smutty fanfic sex scenes are good when they are written by, like, 16 year old virgins who still think that, like, sex is going to change their lives and be, like, incredible every time. Like, I maintain the best smut is written by high schoolers. Like like, you have to just have like like, this is gonna be so great.
Blayne:Like, you just you need to have that mindset and not know where anything goes, not know anything realistic about it, not know any of the sounds. Like, you need to just be like and, like, and nothing is realistic. And then I'm like, this
Blayne:is great. The moment you start to introduce, like, an element of realism into it, then I'm like, okay. Then we're writing, like, lit fix sex scenes, which I'm like, oh, yeah. He kinda smells, and you don't feel good, and you're kinda bloated.
Jo:Yeah. But that's not what again, that's not what I wanted either. So, yeah. I say 16 because of that. Because I I'm very happy with the way that it turned out.
Jo:It's definitely one of my favorite chapters, but it was the one that scared me the most.
Blayne:My favorite chapter, because I hate myself, is chapter 19. It first of all, the people we really do
Blayne:a man demand an official apology. But, no, it's it's
Blayne:is so good. I mean, you from the jump where your trigger warning is like torture, and you're talking about Abu Ghraib, and you're talking about post 09:11. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. Great.
Blayne:We're trigger warning this. We're we're through with the trigger. And I I just I was like, oh, cute little scene.
Jo:Harry and Ginny
Blayne:and Quidditch match. Where are we? Like, it
Blayne:just it just it's so so well done.
Blayne:It is it's I think I mean, to talk about, like, the two most difficult things to write in fiction, which are, like, sex and violence. Because you want, you know, you want your depending on the the kind of scene you're you're writing, if you're not writing a, you know, like a like a lit fix scene, you want your sex to be sexy and you want your, like, violence to be, like, thrilling and terrifying.
Blayne:And Yeah.
Blayne:And I just I think that you did both in incredibly realistic ways that, like, were not your your your sex was porn enough and your trauma was not trauma porn. So you porn it right where it needed to be. Just but no. I just I just I think I think that that '19 is is such a feat of, like, not even bait and switch, but just like, yes, you hit it from us so well. And then this entire kind of saw like, mini saga almost unfolds throughout that.
Blayne:And then and then, you and I have discussed how Harry kind of throughout even canon, has just this sort of passive suicidal ideation that like, you know, is never quite named. He never talks about, but he's just he's he's incredibly like, you know, obviously careless to about his life to the point of recklessness, but it is just this sort of like, I live or I die, whatever kind of a vibe. Like, it's just it's he's just so I mean, boy is just so it's so great. He's so sad. He's just so depressed to the point of like, I mean, of of of being almost in that headspace that that to have him come out of that and really, like, shock out of that and kind of kick that almost lifelong sort of uncaring about his own life and his safety and and his own value.
Blayne:Like, it it needed to be something that earth shattering. It was so well done.
Jo:I mean, you and I have talked about this before, but I've always felt like JK Rowling kind of romanticizes this idea of, like, accepting death.
Blayne:God, does she ever. Oh, yeah.
Jo:And I From the get go, obviously because chapter 19 was in my head for so long, I knew this was going to be the chapter where that stops. It's like he doesn't accept his death, because that It would suck if he died. Yeah. He's 22. He has this burgeoning love and life with Jenny.
Jo:He has this career that's working well for him. And it's just he doesn't want to die anymore. And it comes back as well to that scene with Lily later, where I think he projects on Lily. I don't know how much of that she feels and how much of that it's like her being able to tell that he's projecting that on her. But they have this conversation where she point blank asks him like, did you want to kill yourself?
Jo:And he says, I just didn't care. And I think, you know, that's kind of coming full circle, but then he adds this thing that's like, it goes away after a while. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of chapter 19 for him is that going away and being like, no, I don't. I actually would care if I died.
Jo:And this is worth living. And I think it's something that I really wanted to write because I was again, like, I've always felt like J. G. Rowling really romanticizes that in a way that I think is not particularly comfortable, to be honest. I get what she's trying to do.
Jo:Like, I think it serves her plot, and it serves her story, and it serves this idea that death will come to you when the time is right. But it's like, you know, I wanted him to be like, no, like, and then he starts this slow journey of like getting out of the line of fire, even at work. And at first it's like through staying with the hit wizards, but becoming a sniper. And then like later it becomes like him just, like, kind of taking more responsibility and getting out getting out of the line of fire. But I think, you know, it had to be because I think a lot of fics I've seen because obviously Harry goes into management.
Jo:Right? And a lot of people deal with that because it kinda he's not a management type of guy, like, he's not the kind of guy who will, like, sit behind a desk. And so a lot of people deal with that with, like, either Ginny asking him to step away or, like, him doing it for his kids. And I was like, I want him to do it for himself. Like, I want him him to realize prior to having kids that, no, he actually cares if he dies.
Jo:He will take those risks if they're necessary, and you see it all, like, all the way into chapter 24 when he's going all rambo and being like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna save Lily.' So he will take those risks if they need to be taken, but he gets that point where it's not necessary anymore, and he actually weighs the options first. And I really wanted that to be in chapter 19. And I think what I also really like about chapter 19, because it's funny, I reread it today for, like, the book club. But the first half is completely not about that.
Blayne:It it really isn't.
Blayne:Like, you you bait and switch us so hard on that, and it's it's but, like, it does I think what works about it so well is, like, very unfortunately, the torture through line. Yeah. Like, that it it it it's so
Blayne:it's not completely out of left field. Like, we've
Blayne:been Yeah. We've been working on it thematically. And then, obviously, like, it you're closing a a character arc that was started in canon of Harry being self sacrificing to a point of, like, just not caring about his own survival, like, at all in any circumstance. I mean, you get you get the sense that, like, Cannon Harry would, like, chuck himself in front of a bus to, like, help someone not be mildly inconvenienced. Whereas it's like, baby, no.
Blayne:Like, you have things to live for.
Blayne:Like, it's just I think I
Blayne:think that that is something that, like, people who have had, you know, difficult upbringings or people who have struggled with mental health things. Like, when you reach that point of realizing that you I mean, hopefully, you don't have to go through a chapter 19 to get there. Maybe just some nice years of therapy. Where you go, no, like, I am not just kind of existing through the day to day and just being like, oh, didn't die today. Oh, well.
Blayne:Like, maybe I do need to open a four zero one k. Like, I'm not gonna be dead by thirty five. Like, it just it just yeah. It's this kind of odd passivity that can exist. And I and I I I think for Harry's, like, arc to to close, and and he would he would almost have to be shocked out of it.
Blayne:I completely think so.
Jo:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So I think this concludes this, like, three hour long chat.
Blayne:Wait. We didn't do the funeral service for Harry's dog. RIP. Dog but not forgotten.
Jo:No. But see Okay. So I need to give context now. So this does not conclude this episode. I had this idea of Harry having a dog and what you didn't know is that it was going to be Lily's dog and so he was going to be walking it when he's depressed that his daughter's in war, Right?
Jo:That was going to be the point of the dog. But, yeah, I had this idea and like, Narugils and I like brainstormed what kind of dog it was going
Blayne:I wanted it to be this little yappy throw pillow of a dog. Like, he wanted, like, a normal, like, mid sized kind of sporty. And I was like, I want it to be one of those crusty ones where it doesn't have bottom teeth and the tongue hangs out. Like, that's what I want, this crusty little dog for Harry. And then Joe killed him.
Jo:I didn't kill him. I I wrote it and then I was like, this is going to be so much so many words to write. So shoot for something that really isn't necessary.
Blayne:Give Harry a dog.
Jo:You know what? I'll give it to you. Lily gets a dog later and they both raise it and they have this lovely like mocking her zombies where they have their dogs.
Blayne:And then Mia comes back and tells Harry off and gives the dog a treat. I really enjoy how we started this and we were like, I don't know if we're gonna have a no. Like, what are we gonna talk about? Proceeds to talk for three hours.
Jo:But you know what? It's a bonus episode. Incredible. Incredible. Still here.
Jo:Please like send me an anon on Tumblr or something. If
Blayne:you're still I mean, if if you're still here at
Blayne:this point, I figure we're all just drunk and hanging out. So like, what's going on? Welcome to the castle sized episode on castle. We thought it was gonna be five chapters. We thought it was gonna be five questions.
Blayne:It's 400,000 words, baby. I am what is what is the phrase Hermione uses in the fourth movie? Particularly loquacious. So this is very fitting.
Jo:So anyway, we're gonna close this out. Blaine, can you tell us where we can find your fanfic online?
Blayne:Yes. So I am on a o three under gnargles fifteen. You can find the still unupdated, the squib. Guys, I'm really sorry. It haunts me as much as
Blayne:it annoys you. So just know I do think about it all
Blayne:the time, and it makes me hate myself. So hopefully, I get you another chapter soon so that you can
Jo:read it and I can She killed everybody and then draw
Blayne:You know what? And the only person left alive is Harry's dog. We're gonna we're gonna get you the chapter soon. No. I do.
Blayne:I do feel awful. I've been writing a lot of original fiction lately, so I don't know. I'll give you guys a shout out in the acknowledgments when it gets published. And then, yeah, if you wanna find me, I'm always online. I think I have a Tumblr.
Blayne:I never check it. So find me there, maybe I'll see it in six months. But that is beetelling. And then I am on Twitter if you wanna actually talk to me because I'm literally there daily. I am, I think I'm like at blatetelling.
Blayne:If you see, it's Baroness Winchester Smythe Banbury is the that's that's where I'm out about the Internet, usually just reading shitty smutty fix on a o three.
Blayne:So where you can find me.
Jo:Thank you so much for doing this with me. And if you don't know, I'm Publisend. You can find the podcast if you have any feedback, suggestions for topics for next episodes at the fanfic writers craft at tumblr.com or ask box is open. And if you want to help finance the podcast, you can head to co-v/ the fanfic writers craft. This helps us pay for our hosting fees.
Jo:I will also say that for this chapter specifically, there is currently a podfic of castles that is being made by someone who is not me, and I will add the link to this episode notes because I think it's a great initiative. And if anybody wants to listen to that and give them a little bit of support, that's great. Thank you so much, Blaine, for coming on.
Blayne:Oh my god. Thank you for having me. I I I
Blayne:love talking castles. Clearly, I can do it for a while.
Jo:Okay. Bye, everyone.