Is Anything Real?

📘 Book launch day: Outrageous Startup Growth by Colin Hodge (Wiley) —out today (4/13).

The startup world is basically a myth factory…and founders inhale it like oxygen. Colin Hodge is here to punch a few of those myths in the face...with real receipts from building DOWN (formerly Bang With Friends) and spending years in the trenches of consumer psychology.

This one has a strong “listen twice” feel because it’s not hype. It’s mechanisms.

The 3 founder myths killing companies (and nervous systems)
  1. You have to chase unicorn status, or you failed  
  2. Growth comes from hacks, not understanding humans
  3. Anything labeled “casual” can’t be meaningful (spoiler: it can)
The “viral moments” we unpack (aka the parts you’ll quote to your founder friends)
  • Punching the unicorn myth: there’s another path to success that doesn’t require billionaire cosplay  
  • Consumer psychology > hacks: stop chasing channels, start understanding how people choose  
  • Good friction (IKEA effect): the right steps can increase commitment and retention with good friction
  • One move you can run this week: use framing effects to shape decisions inside paywalls, onboarding, and pricing  
  • Is Anything Real?: authenticity becomes a durable edge when the internet gets noisier and faker

Guest links

For leaders in transition...

⚡ Transition Leadership Foundation Call (20 min):
https://calendly.com/adamwbarney/foundation-call-20min

If you’re building a company right now and your brain feels like 27 tabs are open, send this to the one founder friend who needs the reminder: you don’t have to chase unicorns to be successful.

Creators and Guests

Host
Adam W. Barney
Adam W. Barney helps transitioning leaders navigate career and leadership inflection points with clarity and momentum. Author of Make Your Own Glass Half Full and creator of EnergyOS. Based in Boston, fueled by family and music.

What is Is Anything Real??

Is Anything Real? is the Reality-First Leadership podcast for builder-leaders who want outcomes, not optics. Each week, Adam W. Barney sits down with founders and operators to unpack positioning, marketing, community, energy management, and influence - plus the numbers behind what actually worked.

You’ll hear: a quick Reality Check, a practical Proof Stack (inputs → actions → outcomes), and one EnergyOS habit you can run this week. Specifics over slogans; humane systems over hustle cosplay.

New episodes every Wednesday at 12:00 PM ET.

👉 Book your 20-min Exploration Call: https://calendly.com/adamwbarney/explorationplugin-20min

[00:06.0]
Three founder myths are killing companies and honestly killing people's nervous systems. One, you have to chase unicorn status or you failed. Two, growth comes from hacks not understanding humans. And three, anything labeled casual can't be meaningful.

[00:24.0]
Today's guest has lived inside all three and built through them anyway. He's a former Microsoft guy, built down, and he's dropping a book with Wiley today, April 13th. So we're doing this reality first. Myths, mechanisms and what to do instead.

[00:40.9]
Welcome back to Is Anything Real? The Reality first leadership show where operators test advice and publish the receipts so you can ship what works. I'm Adam W. Barney, transition leadership coach for executives and founders, author and host of this podcast. Today's guest is Colin Hodge, founder of Down, formerly Bang with Friends, Microsoft alum, and he's about to drop a book with Wiley after a two year publishing runway because publishing moves at the speed of glaciers.

[01:11.0]
And Collins thesis is one I love because it's anti theater. Success doesn't come from chasing the next hack. It comes from understanding consumer psychology, how real humans think, feel, decide and change column. Welcome.

[01:26.4]
Let's make some people uncomfortable. I can't wait to make them uncomfortable. Hopefully to change some perspectives and to shatter some of those myths. Cool. Awesome. All right, quick reality check. The startup world is basically a myth factory, right?

[01:43.8]
And founders inhale it like oxygen. So I want you to pick the first myth and punch it in the face. What's the most common founder myth? You see people destroy themselves with, you know, us, founders, we are sold this story that to be a success, we have to be a unicorn startup founder.

[02:06.5]
We have to make billions, become a billionaire. And beyond all the front pages of every news site, every blog, Reddit, etc. That's not the case. This is such a myth that is fed to us from VCs, from, investors, from this competition we have looking and comparing ourselves to others rather than chasing for us.

[02:33.3]
What would make us feel fulfilled, what would have an impact on real people? And this is one of the most dangerous myths there is. Of course, of course there are plenty of startups that and in industries and problems that you can only solve in a fast way if you throw lots of money at it and go the VC route and all that.

[02:54.5]
And that's great. For those problems we need that sort of high risk capital that swing for the fences or strikeout sort of mentality. But for the vast majority of founders, I want them to know there's another path. You don't have to revere the billionaires and the, ones who are getting all the headlines, there's another path to success and to being a fulfilled founder, and that is through running your own business, running it profitably, and growing your impact in your team in a responsible way.

[03:27.6]
Right, right, right, Yep. And I mean, there's a gauntlet here we could have run down. Right. Unicorn chasing growth hacks the stigma around casual platforms. But I really feel if your definition of success is borrowed, your life ends up feeling rented.

[03:43.1]
Right. So, absolutely. I'd love to then go. Let's, let's start with the one thing that's going to trigger, let's say half the Internet here. The myth being that casual dating apps are shallow and meaningless. You know, what's, what's the reality there that you see, they encounter this, this myth so often because I founded a dating app, and everybody I talked to, you know, I get one of two reactions.

[04:09.5]
I get, oh, that's not for me, I would never use that. Or I get, oh, wow, that's really smart. I could see myself using it, or I have a friend who could use it. So the myth that is connected to this, as you mentioned, is this idea that just because something starts casual or is short term even, it doesn't have meaning.

[04:32.5]
And that's a myth because so many beautiful relationships start in unexpected ways. And we get value, even if it ends early, even if it is in the casual space only. We get value from people that we encounter through learning new things about them, about ourselves, about what we like, what we don't like, providing us comfort and companionship in hard moments or in moments of transition.

[05:02.7]
And frankly, when we just need to focus on something else. Like, I've been focused on my book for the past two years. It's been really nice to have casual relationships that don't require that to be my top priority. So I think all sorts of life phases and situations call for casual relationships.

[05:23.7]
And there's real human connection there and there's real value to be had. Yeah. And I mean, I know you've actually done a lot of work there to understand, you know, what contradicts, predicts the stigma. You talk to users, you look at data, you've done interviews.

[05:39.5]
What's a story pattern you've seen? You know, someone comes in after something painful, finds something that fits them for that season, and it actually turns to help them grow. That's definitely the story pattern we see the most, which is somebody is going through some sort of life transition.

[06:00.9]
Maybe it's a rebound from a Breakup. Maybe they move to a new city, they just want to meet new people and explore. Maybe they're going through a bit of a phase of, hey, like, I, I'm frustrated with, with what I'm, what I've been through and where I'm at. I just want to try something new or I want to let loose and have an outlet.

[06:19.8]
And so all of these seasons of their lives, the, changes that they go through, all these are opportunities for growth and opportunities to connect in a new way with yourself and hopefully with other people. Right, right, right.

[06:35.9]
This is why, why I love this, actually. It's a leadership lesson too. Right. Humans don't grow in shame, they grow in honesty. And stigma is really just a story people tell when they don't understand real human behavior. Right, exactly.

[06:52.4]
We, we feel so much stigma. And I've, I've battled this myself, around embracing our sexuality, around embracing change, even things that are not related to sexuality. You know, people get stuck in their comfort zone.

[07:08.0]
We, we can feel stuck in the status quo, what our ego is attached to, including our identity. Oh, I've always been seen as this person. You know, I've always been seen as this person who doesn't use dating apps. Now I'm trying one. What does that mean?

[07:24.1]
That sort of stigma is something that the sooner you break it, the sooner you can grow. And as a founder, I've really found there's a lot of stigma I hold about what sort of business I want to run, how successful that business needs to be, and breaking that stigma really has unlocked a lot of really positive things for my life and for my mental well being.

[07:46.7]
Right, right. You know, and you know, there's a myth here that I think is basically a cult, right. That if you don't raise huge rounds, and you kind of spoke to this earlier and chase that unicorn status, you're not a real founder. But you said something powerful that not everybody wants, that not everybody needs, that some people want independence, they want flexibility, or they just want to have a real life.

[08:12.1]
What's the honest alternative definition of success you wish more founders were allowed to say out loud. For me, success really should mean you're having the positive impact that you want to have on the world.

[08:28.8]
And so often if we're chasing somebody else's dreams or we feel this obligation to fulfill what other people expect of us, rather than what is our best self and what is the best impact we can have on others, then we're going to feel empty.

[08:46.8]
Even if we achieve a lot of those Goals. And that's why I like to define success as that positive impact on others. I feel like I have it through my company and that's why I feel, very strongly about pushing back on that stigma that exists.

[09:04.8]
But I also feel like for my employees, for my, for the contractors we work with, for all the partners we have, we strive to have a positive impact on them and to just run things, treat others how we want to be treated and run things in that high integrity way, and always, you know, realize that we're going to make mistakes.

[09:26.2]
So part of it is improving and striving to be better every day. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, do you see that there's maybe even an ego trap here? You know, what founders are actually chasing, whether it's money, status, approval, fear of being small, you know, are those traps there?

[09:45.0]
And then, I guess, you know, how does, how does, you know, don't over raise. Look in practice, how does over raising end up distorting decisions as well? Yeah, I've seen so many companies, especially in our industry, over raise, and it ends up, you know, handicapping them or handcuffing them later because they don't have a plausible exit that is at a valuation that would make sense for any of the investors.

[10:12.2]
So that, that is a, struggle. And a lot of times founders are pressured to keep raising while they can keep raising and running that game. When a hard look at, you know, what are the potential exits that we might want to consider in the next few years and how does this change that formula, the math for those that is really necessary to, to have, it's totally connected to ego and it's also connected to the advice you're getting.

[10:44.0]
Right, Right. So I, I don't, I, I felt I fell for the same sort of traps too. And part of it is, you know, yeah, it feels good, of course, to be able to, raise more money and to talk to people and you know, in the news and your friends and the other founders and be like, yeah, we raised another 10mil, but what is that actually serving?

[11:06.5]
What is it actually building toward? And is it closing doors that you might want to be able to open later? That's what I would consider. One regret I had was I wish we monetized earlier and more aggressively because it would have opened more exit paths and reduced the necessity to try to look for bridge financing and all that stuff.

[11:32.1]
Yeah, that's a good, that's a very good point. And you know, it weaves into what I talk to with a Lot of, you know, college and high school students. The enough is enough thesis. Right. If you can build a life you actually like, that shouldn't be viewed as failure, that's actually winning.

[11:48.6]
And not every business is actually meant to be a rocket ship. Some should be meant to be a life that you can live. Absolutely. I struggle with this still because I still view our company as a rocket ship, but maybe our destination is like Artemis 2.

[12:08.8]
We're going to the moon, we're not going to Mars. Right, right, right. And then I want to definitely head to the core of outrageous startup growth, and I want to make it executable. You know, I think the myth again here that we, we, we can get into is that growth comes from hacks and tactics, but it actually comes from consumer psychology.

[12:32.9]
What do you call and mean by consumer psychology? In plain English, like if a listener had to explain it to a teammate or their, their five year old, what is it? So if we're going to explain it like you're five, which I love this exercise.

[12:48.3]
It's a good challenge. You know how everybody has this internal voice in their head telling them when they should choose something and when they should pass on something or skip it. Well, consumer psychology is just thinking about and understanding their thought process and their emotions so that you could more easily design the environment or design those choices for them so they succeed more.

[13:17.6]
And so when they succeed, your company succeeds more. Right. I think one of the hardest things to get across is, you know, we're seeing all your competitors do well and you want to copy their tactics and you want to get the latest growth hack and you want to chase whatever channel is hot right now and go viral there.

[13:39.2]
But it actually doesn't matter what the channel is or what the tactics are, as much as it matters that you understand how your target customers think. Right. When you do, then all of the rest becomes a lot easier and a lot more repeatable.

[13:55.8]
Instead of feeling like you're always behind and you're always chasing, that's what I'm trying to bestow, upon other founders and other marketers and product people. This stuff. Yes, it's still hard. You still have to think hard and critically and deeply, and you still need to use lots of tools, but it becomes an order of magnitude easier because now you have a foundation and understanding of how your users think, how to reach them more easily, and how to get them on the path to success so that your own company's success can grow easier.

[14:30.9]
Right, right. And do you have any concrete examples that you could bring in there, you know, you learned X about how users think and feel, you changed why in product or marketing and outcome Z change. And if there are numbers there, that would be fun to understand as well.

[14:50.4]
Absolutely. So, two quick examples. The first one was way back, and I want to say 2014 or 2015, so pretty early App Store days, things were a bit less mature than they are now. And I noticed a spark of growth.

[15:07.7]
I noticed a sudden spike of downloads in the past week. And I was like, what is going on? Right. So where are they coming from? I didn't do anything that I knew of. And so I started investigating it. And what I saw was my, you know, a few keywords related to our app, were coming up in searches and we were ranking highly for those keywords on the App Store.

[15:29.4]
So this was my discovery of basically the App Store optimization tactic and channel. And it became one of the most lucrative business drivers for us over the last decade.

[15:44.8]
And it's insane how many companies overlook, this understanding still. And when they do, they're leaving money on the table and they're basically paying for something that they're not receiving the service because you pay 30% to Apple for every sale that goes through them.

[16:05.7]
You're just leaving that on that money on the table if you're not optimizing that. So how do you optimize that? You need to understand how your customers, anybody who's searching for dating apps, for instance, or whatever your business is, need to understand what might they be searching for, what mood are they in and what sort of visuals.

[16:27.6]
The icon, the screenshots, the title, the description, all that stuff would convert them better in that mood, in that moment that they're in. Right, Right. So as I started to dig into this, within two iterations, just two experiments, I had tripled our, downloads.

[16:47.1]
Wow. Tripled 300%. Within a few months, I had taken it to over 10x. And the wild thing here is that was just plugging into how they think, what their mood is, you know, what are.

[17:03.0]
Because your mind starts to, you start to put on their shoes and live in their mind. So then you're like, oh, wow, what if in this moment they're searching for something slightly different? Right. That's how we really exploded our organic downloads and our new users.

[17:19.4]
That's the first story. The second one more recently. So this stuff is, this stuff is a science. And like any good science, you, you need a hypothesis. And you're always questioning yourself, you're always learning Right, Yep. Yep, Yep. So I was flat wrong about something, and I'll admit it right here.

[17:38.5]
I thought that the whole point of doing growth work in your product was to remove friction, you know, get out of the way of your users, remove all the speed bumps and things, slowing them down. Right. And what I discovered is there's actually something called good friction.

[17:56.6]
And I needed to introduce. Our team needed to introduce better good friction to our app and removed only the bad friction. So where did this show up? You know, like most. Right. That sounds a little surprising, right?

[18:13.0]
Yeah, yeah, it's powerful. Like most apps, we had an onboarding process, and we're trying to move our users through that signup process as smoothly and quickly as possible. But what we actually tested out was if we do an experiment where we add a few steps and they're meaningful steps that help the user make real progress to building a better profile and better understanding what is different about, our app, our offering, so that they connect with it in a deeper way, then they'll be more invested in the app experience, in actually succeeding on our app than they would otherwise.

[18:58.7]
Something called the IKEA Effect, after, of course, the infamous IKEA furniture. So, I don't know, Adam, have you ever. You've put together IKEA furniture, surely, right? Yep. Oh, many times. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And it's a struggle, Right? Right. So that struggle, actually, it bestows a deeper value on that furniture because of that investment that you personally put into building it.

[19:23.9]
Right. So that $40 you spent, you know, building a small table is now seen as a much bigger investment. You care a lot more about that table you built and spent the time and effort on than you do. I would argue, especially with Ikea, you actually have to put blood, sweat, and tears into it occasionally.

[19:43.9]
Yes. And literally. Yeah. You're wiping off the blood from putting the table together. Exactly. And, you know, I think this gets into Colin. If you don't understand the human that's behind the product that you're building, the service you're providing, you're just rearranging the buttons that they hit to get to your.

[20:02.9]
You. To your front door. Yes. In another, in other vein, you and I both kind of learned the same thing about books. Right. Publishers don't magically market you. So for founders listening who are are ready to crack the nut and write their first book, what's one thing you wish every first time author understood about book launches?

[20:22.6]
Of course. Because today is yours. Wow. The one thing is really hard to choose just one, because I can count A thousand lessons I've learned along the way. So I'll just go with, with this.

[20:40.2]
What I'm. What I keep returning to is to make the whole process feel authentic to who I am instead of just chasing the goal. The goal would be, hey, I want to have a big launch, have it reach lots of founders, and I want them to love the book and give me feedback about how it changed their path or sparked an idea.

[21:02.7]
Right, right. Hopefully that builds into a bestseller. Hopefully. Right. Fingers crossed. Right. But if I just blindly chase that stuff, if I just blindly chase, I want to make this as big as possible, then I'm not having fun in the process and it's not always going to feel like it's a part of me.

[21:21.9]
So, the one lesson is make it authentic to you and make it just part of who you are and how you want to show up in the world. Because when you do, yes, it's still hard. Yes, there's a lot of work, but oh man, it's so much more rewarding and fun along the way.

[21:39.6]
Well, and also, you know, a book doesn't necessarily change your life. Right. The. The book plus distribution is what actually can change your life. And I would also argue having my first book, Make Your Own Glass Half Full, out.

[21:55.1]
A book is a product, so you should launch it like one. Absolutely. Yeah. Colin, close us out with one move people can run this week. One move that helps a founder stop chasing those attractive hacks and start understanding humans.

[22:14.1]
And then kind of get into the action, the time and what it unlocks. Definitely. So I think some of the easiest ones for founders to apply is thinking about whatever decision, whatever funnel you're trying to optimize, just look at the framing effects that go into that decision.

[22:38.4]
So what I mean by that is what are the other things happening around that user's experience that are changing their perception of that decision? So let's say you have a paywall and you want to improve the conversion rate on that.

[22:53.6]
What did they experience right before that? What are the other pricing options that they're seeing there? What's the message and the call to action? All of these things frame their mindset so that you can better understand them and try to drive the behavior that you want.

[23:12.3]
So just be aware, like the environment really does shape decisions and you can frame all of those decisions in a better way once you understand them. Right. I love that. Because most activity is not the same as greater insight, deeper insight.

[23:28.3]
Right? Absolutely. Just to elaborate a little more so think about, even when you get cold outreach, you get an email when, when we reached out to you about being on the podcast. Right. It's.

[23:43.5]
If I, if I had hit you up right when you were in a bad moment and you were so busy and you were just like, no, no, I. I just want to ignore that. And the pitch was not, you know, tight, it wasn't like on point, then that would never be successful. But the same person receiving outreach in a different moment with this right context and framed in a good way, might say yes.

[24:06.2]
And so that is so important. I find. Live in your user's shoes as best you can and then you can understand the framing. Right, Right. I love it. Love it. So, Colin, with the book launch today, everything else that we covered here, is anything real?

[24:27.3]
I think we're living in a world where less and less appears to be real. But the advantage you can have as a founder is to return to that humanity, return to that reality and bring that authenticity through so that you are one of the main sources of something that's real.

[24:44.9]
When you do, people are going to be attracted to it and that gives you the sustainable advantage over all the people who are fake and all the AI that's fake. That's incredible. Colin, where can folks find you, obviously, if they can't see on the screen right there down.

[25:01.7]
And the book, especially as Outrageous Startup Growth hits today. Yeah, you can find Outrageous Startup Growth at any of your favorite booksellers. We're already an Amazon bestseller and hoping for more. So you can find us also at colinhodge.com and you'll find links to everything you need there.

[25:23.4]
Awesome. And we'll of course link to that in the show notes below. Colin. But, for our listeners, if this episode hit you send it to one founder who's chasing the wrong scoreboard. And if you're leading through change and are looking for that reality first reset, there's a 20 minute clarity call linked in the show notes below as well.

[25:43.1]
With me, no pitch, just to get space and get honest about what's working, what's waste, and one move to run next. But Colin, thanks for joining and until next time, proof over performance and ship what works. Thank you for having me.