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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold,
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
of modern life. Named one to watch by The Guardian in 2024 following the success of his debut feature film BAM! It also won the Wicked Queer Audience Award and nominations from Rome Independent and Fresno Real Pride. He has also earned recognition for shorts like Buy a Thread and The Viral. strangers sleep in my bed. Jordan is a Wesleyan-trained double major in theater and economics. He blends marketing insights with storytelling across work in
New York, Chicago, and LA. So yeah, Jordan and I, we chat about sort of the ethics and excitement of producing actor-led shorts, as well as the love of not calling cuts and just really quick resets scene over scene and how sound design, trust, and even dust can transform a scene. So if you're into that, as well as listening in on us chatting about producing culture, actor-producer dynamics, and why sometimes...
Mishu Hilmy (01:54)
Some of the funnest and best projects just come from throwing out the script mid-rehearsal. You are in the right place. Please keep listening in. As for Jordan, you can follow Jordan at JTreygas on Instagram, as well as I'll have his website on the show notes. And please watch BAM! It helps search it. You can find it to rent on Amazon Prime, Apple TV Plus, and steam it for free on Tubi in the US, UK, and Canada.
He's also developing a upcoming feature film called Cinghiale, which will be shot in Italy. And you can follow that on Instagram at Cinghiale film. So I'll have all that in the show notes, but without further ado, please have listened to me and my bud Jordan Tregg.
Jordan Tragash (02:15)
Yeah, yeah, I just got back last night. I was in Chicago shooting a little short with one of the actors from BAM and her dad, Cue me, Daniel, her father, Tom, was a lot of fun. They had me come out. We sort of did two, like three page shorts, one kitchen table drama scene and one like spy thriller that was in this really cool, like abandoned attic, like under construction in Pilsen with all these like piles of bricks.
and holes in the floor and stuff. So was pretty fun.
Mishu Hilmy (02:45)
That's sick. Yeah. How did that come to be? Like I love, I love like the exercise of spontaneous, like, yeah, we have two, three page scripts. We're going to shoot it in, you know, four hours, six hours, two and a half hours. So like, how did, how did it come to be?
Jordan Tragash (03:26)
It really came to be because the mom of the family, Chika Sekiguchi, who she reached out to me actually asking if I might be interested in putting something together because Cue me just got an agent and the agent wanted more footage. So it sort of was like, you know, about getting them a little bit more content for their reel. And Tom used to be an actor, you know, was a Jeff award winning actor in nineties. And so.
He was like, I could get back into acting. So she sort of said, Hey, you know, we have a little money set aside. If we fly you out, would you be interested in sort of writing something? Cause you know them, you know, I've been working with Cumi since our first short together in like 2021 when she was probably 12 at that point. And just, yeah, I mean, I was thrilled to do it. Like I love working with Cumi and as they get older, they're just like so smart, so talented.
maturing so well and just a great actor, honestly. So, so yeah.
That's cool. So the day I got reached out to and you just like wrote a couple of shorts, like what was the kind of, was it sort of decentered and collaborative of like, okay, yeah, I'm down like, or were you just driving the thing? Like, I want a thriller and I want like just a real drama. What was the writing process?
Yeah, it was good. We did. I sort of met with them, talked to them about what they were kind of going for. And they wanted to do something very dramatic. And Tom kind of suggested something that was like, know, reminiscing about his father's death, telling his daughter something that he wished he had been told. And so that was kind of how the first one came about. And then the second one actually changed a lot. It was initially written to be more of like a Harry Potter kind of like
Jordan Tragash (05:14.208)
you're a wizard Harry type moment, you know, where, then we, had a rehearsal on Wednesday before the shoot on Friday. And we pretty much just improvised through this rehearsal on zoom and rewrote the whole thing. And it kind of became this thing where he was telling her, know, your mom and I, were secret agents working in Bolivia and we were separated and she's disappeared. And, know, you have this thing that she left and
I needed and she was like, no, like she left it for me. Like I can't give it to you. And he was like, like, there's no time. You know, there's people that are coming. And, and she was like, well, you know, if you want to know what's inside this thing, she left for me. Like you have to take me with you. Like I need to know about my mom, you know? And it ended up being a really like intense scene because, you know, I don't know if it was just because we had rewritten it. recently.
Everybody was so tired and it was like a night shoot too and this dusty attic. But then when we came back to him for the close up, I looked at the DP, Matthew Freer, who is great and shot bam. And we kind of looked at each other and we were like, he's getting it. So was like, we can't stop. Because now he got the lines. So was like, need to get the performance. And I felt bad. I mean, I probably had him do it like 25 times. Just kept resetting, no cutting.
He was shaking and really was putting him through it. I'm really happy with how it came out. He kind of gives like a Mike Ehrman trout from breaking that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.
out with him and talk to him. Yeah, you can have that sort of gravitas and that quality. Yeah.
Jordan Tragash (06:47.086)
And you know, he has a real big T and he's a shoulder holster. Yeah, he's a great guy. He's a great guy. So was fun. It was really fun to work with him in that capacity because it wasn't something I'd really done before.
Right. Yeah. I love the reset. No cut just to keep things going. just like, I think like it's like re slating every single time. It takes so much time. I think it's time to like 20 to 45 seconds plus last looks. I'm like, no, no last looks, no, no slate. We're just going to reset and run through. It was a pretty lean through. Did it it just you Matt and a boom opera? Did you set up a boom on like, you know,
I actually did the sound myself. kind of becoming like my MO. Yeah, since I did that on BAM, it's kind of becoming my thing now where I'll run the sound. But he had Jessica Tolliver as her name, a great sort of camera, DP in her own right, who kind of came out to help us gaff, sort of like be the kind of AC one swing, a gaffer type of role. She was very understanding and worked in the space a lot and was really great to work with.
When you're when you're boom-bopping, do you have like a monitor in front of you? Like a camera monitor where you can at least see a six inch LCD screen.
You know, yeah, yeah, I usually just watch, I try and position myself in such a way that the boom is in a good spot and I can see the monitor on the camera at the same time and I'll spin it, but you know, Matthew I've worked with before and I trust his eye and I trust he'll tell me if something is really off. But yeah, I'm a big anti-video village guy actually, so I really try to avoid like any screens on set.
Jordan Tragash (08:25.314)
For me, I feel like it's the DP's job to get the performance in the camera and it's my job to get the performance out of the actor. And it's like, like to engage directly with the actor. And so that's really where my focus tends to be. But more technical shots, I'll be on the monitor making sure things match or the framing's right or the pans are smooth or zooms or whatever.
like a rack makes sense, eye line works. Yeah. So yeah, you mentioned like this isn't something you've done quite a lot of before. Is this more of reference to seemingly maybe somewhat short notice like, let's get this together. Like what made it somewhat different than your usual approach to, you know, shooting producing either a short or a project.
You know, it was a little, it was a little bigger budget, honestly, than the things I usually do. It's just kind of ironic, you know, like for this one shoot, had probably 20 % of the budget I would make a feature on, you know, and, and, that was kind of a nice feeling to be able to pay people at, know, like I have an economic story, so I love to like manage my budget and see every single line up nice and you know, and, and yeah.
But it is becoming something that I'm finding happening more. I actually did a similar project with an actor out here in LA who had some bam and liked it and said, I have a little money set aside, you want to do a short together? And it's becoming something that's happening more. And I'm very open to that. I love collaborating with actors. So it's like a dream come true that they would produce.
And I can just kind of write direct and manage the shoot sort of. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (10:09.326)
Yeah, I think that's like an interesting approach around like, you know, I wish everyone was more generative minded, like writing yourself or like reaching out to someone who also wants to write and approaching it from a producing standpoint, because it's like an investment in yourself to a degree, where it's like, yeah, you know what, I haven't, I haven't gone out for much. I have an audition or all the auditions I see are like, victim number one who's screaming in a basement and I don't want to do that. So maybe I'll
I can't write something, I'll find someone who's down to write and then just produce it there. Seems like a fun way of just getting the reps and getting the work in.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it gives you a little bit more sort of power too over the type of content you're making. You know, they say that the modern triple threat is no longer singer, dancer, actor. It's actor, writer, producer, you know? And I think that's really true. I mean, a lot of my greatest collaborations with actors have been when they're involved in the writing process, they're involved in the producing process and...
You know, like Tuxford was for BAM and many, many great actors I've worked with, filled that role. And, and you know, it's, it's can be more fun too. Like that was the one that I did here in LA a few weeks ago. The actor was like, you know, I'm a huge fan of David Lynch who recently passed. And I was like, well, you know, from like a real perspective, like I can write you something that's like super absurd, like Lynchian, but it's like.
your agent's not gonna like that. And he was like, ah, but I don't really care about that. He's like, I just wanted to do the thing. I was like, as long as you understand what you're asking, sure, you can meet a mysterious hooded figure with the face of your grandmother in an alley and they can give you a dying rose and jazz can play. it's like, we can do that. it's fun.
Mishu Hilmy (11:52.078)
Yeah, yeah, how do you maybe approach the ethics of it where it's like, because it seems like it's like a fun way of collaborating and partnering, but at the most cynical end, it's like becomes its own hustle of like,
pay to play, right? It's like you're you create a client relationship rather than a collaborator relationship. Because I know there's a couple organizations in like Chicago and I'm sure LA where it's like pay us X amount of money and we will, you know, give you a script and you'll have, you know, three scenes for your reel. So what are your thoughts on kind of like the the ethics or the potential maybe slippery slope that that kind of work could like lead to?
Yeah, that's an interesting question and that's something that I'm trying to grapple with more. I personally really am not a fan of the pay to play model. Like think as a writer, I see it a lot. think when I was in Chicago and I was doing more acting during that period of time, I saw it a lot. And I had a professor of mine who was in a show at Steppenwolf when I first moved out to Chicago. And I went to him, I said, I just got here, like, what should I do? Should I get into class? Should I kind of try and do something like that? And he said, no.
He said, this is your job, you know, it's a profession that you have, you should be being paid to act, you you already have a degree, kind of like what you should do is take three years and audition as much as you can in those three years. And then if you find after three years, oh, you haven't looked at anything, maybe there is sort of a technical discrepancy that needs to be remedied, then get into a class, you know, so.
I think in terms of these sort of real projects I've been doing lately, I really see it more as a collaboration honestly. And it's not so much building a client relationship as much as it's building really a collaborative relationship. And at the end of the day too, like I always kind of start with this disclaimer of like, let's be really thoughtful about what we're making here because the reality of it is you might put this time in, you might put this money, you might put the resources in, whatever it is you're contributing in.
Jordan Tragash (13:50.626)
You you might not book anything. So we should really be thoughtful about the fact that we need to make something that you'll walk away with the thing and you'll say, I was in that and I helped create that and I like it, you know, and that's the most important thing, even if you never book anything with it. I always try and be clear about that.
Yeah, yeah, think like setting those intentions rather than like they're doing you a favor. like, no, like this is a creative partnership. And I think anyone is in their best, best place if they are like investing either time or money in themselves and the thing that they love. Like you pay, you buy headshots, right? Like if you like, I see like people send me headshots, there's like this grainy selfie photo. I'm like, please find a friend with a nice camera or just spend, you know,
120 bucks or 200 bucks, you know, that's 10 bucks a month or 10, 20 bucks a month that you can just chip in and do it. Same with like actor websites. Please have a website or something. Great. So yeah, like with the so that like this is like a nice short palette cleanser. So what have you been doing in terms of like just general creative work? Are you finding that you're more thinking producing more thinking, directing more thinking, writing like what's been engaging you recently?
Yeah, well recently I've really been trying to kind of clean out the archive, know, finish editing things like downstate, which is a short that I'm in that you're aware of, of course, you know, that is actually going to sound and edit sound and music right now, which is like crazy because that's like three years ago we shot it, maybe more honestly at this point. And yeah, I'm doing a lot of editing, writing a lot.
I'm always writing a lot, right now I'm in particular writing for this actor who I find very compelling. He's a kind of world traveling actor who had been somebody we had talked to about possibly being in the film that I'm doing in Italy next year and didn't really work out. Was it really right for the part? He was a little too young for the part that he wanted, but he was really nice and we had an interesting sort of workshop with him. And I kind of said, you know, might not be this part, but I'd like to put something else together for you.
Jordan Tragash (16:01.638)
So I kind of just got a first draft of that done and I think I might try and sneak it in and shoot it in Chicago in the fall like a little, you know, one $200,000 feature. Oh yeah.
wow. So, yes, that's interesting. You find someone like an actor who's got either a quality or an energy or point of view that you're like, wow, this is this is really interesting. So you've been developing just a feature inspired by this person's ability.
Yeah, yeah, very much so. you know, he's a very interesting actor. I think he's very well poised for like kind of a breakout. You know, he has a lot of celebrity connections. He runs this kind of nonprofit. His most recent project was a remake of the Tommy Wiseau film, The Room, starring Bob Odenkirk as Tommy Wiseau. And he plays Mark, which is like an important role in the in the room. And and yeah, just I'm not really sure why, you know, that project came about the way it did, because I think it's
It's been a very unique project for me. It's a lot more sort of like thinking about myself. Usually when I write, kind of like kind of go outward with my thoughts. And this project, I'm more looking inward. I'm writing about myself, my relationship with my younger sister, writing about family, writing about, you know, my relationship with my own sexuality as a bisexual person who's in a relationship with a woman. And I'm kind of using this actor as like,
almost in a performance art-esque way as like a false representation of myself. It's been very fun and it's resulted in what I consider to be one of my most exciting scripts.
Jordan Tragash (17:44.502)
rebukes three act structure, which is something that caused a lot of controversy in the writers group that I'm in. They were up in arms about it. Like they were like, well, if you're not going to do three act, could you consider five act? I was like, you guys are an understanding of what we're trying to do here. And I do think because I have such an interest in, in absurdist theater.
that this is kind of my first script that I've written where I really feel like I've been able to take the absurdist qualities that I love about things like Beckett and Ionesco and Maria Irene Fornes and kind of get them into a film, you know, because I find that my films tend to be more humanistic, more realistic. I just don't know why. Like when I chose to think about myself, the work became so like chaotic and kind of convoluted and
and very dreamlike, you know, the whole time it was like I was always searching for the experience of how do I make a film that feels like a dream, you know? And that's kind of what I ended up with, I think is very, very, very surreal and abstract and I'm very happy with it. And yeah, you know, has a lot of like notes of Buñuel.
characters, you know, becoming other characters over the course of the film and kind of switching roles in the family dynamic and stuff. so, yeah, that's really been taking up my, my head space in terms of creativity.
That's real fun. I am I'm on a big anti Aristotelian kick. I think there's this like obsession with, you know, Eurocentric Western centric structures. And it's under the guise of quote unquote, reducibility, right. And I think I don't know if I have my book nearby, but I just finished reading Decentred playwriting. It's like a
Mishu Hilmy (19:37.998)
academic text of 13 or 15 or 20 some odd essays and just really each essay exploring how to decent your playwriting and not make it all the time the well made play or the well made screenplay and you know, it's gotta be three X gotta be five X. But that thing around producibility is this weird almost weapon that people wield in like writing workshops and
projecting this talking point of like, well, it won't make money or it won't make sense. Like, shoot, if I'm making this for $2,000 over two weeks, whatever, like, you know what I mean? Like I got an actor who's down to work for 10 days and I got a crew that's down to work for 10 days. Yeah, I've just been on a real like it's mindfulness, right? Like every, every tool, every form has its use, but I'm not a fan of inhibiting the writer to go, you always have to use this form because it's so
protagonist oriented, individual oriented, but there's infinite ways of telling stories, even though it might add more complexity and more confusion, but I think an experience or a story or an emotional experience can happen regardless of was there a second act curtain? Was there catharsis?
Totally. And, know, for me, producibility is such an interesting thing because I really consider myself to be like a hyper filmmaker in some ways, you know, like producibility is very rarely an issue for me. You know, I tend to find myself fighting the budget down with producers and saying, I don't think we need all that. You know, like, I think we can do it much easier. And so I, I, I
to do so.
Jordan Tragash (21:12.494)
One, you know, and the idea too of it has to make sense. Like because I found myself moving into this space of really deeply thinking about dream and like the dream space, you know, and it dreams never make sense. And oftentimes the thing that happens is you are in a dream and you know, celebrity, this is like a big thing for me right now is the role of celebrity in the dream space is like, oftentimes I think if you see a celebrity or someone you recognize in your dream.
you equally almost overstate the importance of what they're saying when in reality it could mean nothing at all. know, like you could have a dream that you you go down the road and you see Danny DeVito and he's waving at you and he comes over and he says, you know, oh, Tuesday's in March. And then you wake up and you're like, I got to be out and watch it out for Tuesdays and March. It's like it doesn't mean anything. It's just images generated by your brain.
I'm really interested in that right now. I sent it out to my writers group and the feedback was like, in something, this was my favorite piece of feedback was, in something that's this abstract, I really, as a reader, want to be asking the right questions. And I feel like for this, I was asking the wrong questions. And I said, well, you know, what questions were you asking? And they said, I was just the whole time, I just couldn't understand what was real and what wasn't real.
And in my head, I'm like, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I want that experience on every page, you know? And they said, but you know, you should put more clear headers to say what is a dream and what isn't a dream. And I was like, what if I told you everything is a dream? You know, it's just some things are maybe taking a more recognizable form, you know? And it was very, it was very interesting feedback session.
I think to a degree, it's like maybe the difference between story and poetry, right? And some people when they they assume all narrative or all living images are built for story versus like you can have it be 90 % poetry or 80 % poetry or whatever. Yeah, the risk of course, is always alienation, confusion and boredom. And that's something you would have to live with. But
Mishu Hilmy (23:24.534)
Like it still doesn't mean that it can't be made or can't be produced. I think when people say producibility, what they're also implying is sellability or recoverability. So recoupability. But that's also one of those things of like no one knows demand until demand reveals itself.
village
Jordan Tragash (23:39.658)
Absolutely. mean, for me, I have no issue with alienation. know, I think alienation fascinates me and I think that the experience of watching something alienating can be can be so, so compelling and also
emotional, you know, like I think that that's the thing at the end of the day is I just saw this great play while I was in Chicago at a Red Orchid Theater. This play, The Cave, which is running right now. And it's about a mixed Palestinian American family who moves to Ohio during the first Gulf War. You know, the father's like first generation immigrant from Palestine and the mother's like raised in Vegas, you know, and it's like kind of her family is like Vietnam War veterans and stuff and they're married and they take their kids and you know, the
play like wasn't perfect, you know, it was like a new play, maybe could have used another draft, probably could have used one more scene on the end. But for me, like I found the play to be incredibly emotionally effective. I was in tears by the end of it. And I don't know, you know, if it had to, you know, it kind of ends in divorce. And I'm a child of divorce now. You know, I know that's something to do with that or just even just seeing art about what's happening right now in Palestine and not being afraid to shy away from it in some ways, like there being an ability to kind of say like,
Holy shit, like finally, you're talking about it and it's like the emotion came despite the maybe lack of perfection, you could say. And for me, was kind of lesson there or a reminder, maybe. So I don't know what that has to do with what I just wrote, but I'm thinking about it, I guess.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (25:14.656)
Yeah, I mean, it's it's I think it's you know, when I was when you were talking about this really first, you know, inside out versus an outside in right where you're doing an approach that's more, you know, pulling from the recesses within the darkness within the curiosity, the subconscious within the thoughts within rather than all right, what's a kind of a sexy concept and what's something that's very, you know, Chicago, very south side, very north side, what's very L.A., what's very Silver Lake and you're going outside in.
there's a potential for like vulnerability. I know I remember doing experiments where I'm like, what would be the most uncomfortable thing that I can write right now in this moment and like as I'm sitting and as I'm typing like, gosh, I feel uncomfortable. I'm worried about the NSA agents, you know, screen grabbing my computer and
Talk about that one where they kidnapped the Congress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also like other exercises, too. But it's that thing of what like, were you aware of a different energy or a different kind of sense or a fear creeping in for writing these drafts because it was a different, maybe more personal approach?
Yeah, you know, I really was, I really was. And I think it had, I had a lot to do. There was a lot that fed into it. You know, it was the personal and the fear, but then also, you know, a lot of this particular project came from these conversations that when you're a writer, I feel you have a lot, go to a bar. I was at this big party in West Hollywood with all these lawyers and agents and stuff. And I was telling them, Oh, you know, I'm this thing. It's about this.
Jordan Tragash (26:51.926)
writer and we love like when a writer writes about something that's really personal and I was like actually usually I would I would respond to that and I would say I don't do that you know I like to write fiction I am inspired by the world around me you know I'm very inspired by people who I meet and I imagine them in stories and but it kind of became this thing where I would I was like yeah you know like
this is about me. And then I would just list these elements of myself and they were so interesting, you know, and it kind of came up with the concept through that where it's, it's almost become like a performance art thing where like, I haven't even told this activist, but it's like, I want him to play me and like,
and I don't want to release the film. want to do private screenings only and all the private screenings. I want to dress just like him and I want like him to go like in my stead. And you know, it's like it's really become this like hyper meta thing, you know, and and it was scary to write it. But then it was like, well, I should give that character that fear, you know, and that's like kind of become the journey of the piece in a lot of ways is the character.
is almost becoming more aware of the film around them and the way things aren't making sense. But the more aware they become of it, the less sense it makes until it truly makes no sense at all. there's there's no coping. You know, it's just fear and madness and alienation from that space of, know, what's happening. And and that's how I feel sometimes when I try and write super personally, you know, because it's like
It's it's you can't just like write about yourself, you know, that's not a story like I am me and that's the story like it's like
Jordan Tragash (28:32.61)
You know, you need more than that. And I think at least. And also, like, this was a big thing for me with BAM is like, I don't write a lot of characters who like hold my own identity because I believe that I as a writer inject the opinions of myself into the work intrinsically. So I try and create characters or surround myself with team members who hold different sorts of perspectives on the world because mine is already in, you know, I don't need to write a character who has my own beliefs because my beliefs are
just in the narrative intrinsically, know, whether I want them to be there or not.
I mean, it becomes to a degree a moot point, because then it's like, you can only write people who have your sort of physical traits, which is not true. I think there's a degree of dealing with the potential questions, consequences or responsibility for that. But I think it's ultimately, I like to refer to as either sort of querying up the process or decentering the process where it's like, okay, I can write from this point of view. All characters will be sort of informed by the point of view of the person who might be leading the drafts. But then that's why you have
conversations after you cast. That's why you have conversations if you have time for rehearsal and massage and shift things around. Like my, you know, in my most recent short, same thing of like, okay, yeah, these are who the character the actors are. Let's talk it through and make it make sense coming out of their minds and their bodies. But I don't think it's like you have to hold on to every physical trait, every physical trauma, every identity to be able to write, because then you'd only be writing
Yeah, and to be clear, I think there are writers who can do that and create great narratives. I just don't think I'm one of them, truly. I don't think I'm that interesting. for me, filmmaking is a tool to learn about the human experience. So the more sort of people I can get who I can say, we're going to explore this theme or this topic, and then the script functions as an invitation and then we explore together, that's what is exciting to me.
Jordan Tragash (30:29.966)
And and I like to involve my actors very early if I can you know like we've been working on Giale this film in Italy and Khalil Sims who was in my last movie plays this African immigrant living in Italy working at this restaurant and and large swaths of the dialogue that his character has were written by him you know and And man I would give him the script and say what you think about this and he said oh, you know I think it should go a little more like this and I say that's great. I wouldn't thought of that you And then you give it to somebody else and they're like
did you write this? And you're like, no, like we made it together, you know, some of it, you know, I wrote. It was a collaboration.
Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, I think it's interesting how the pendulum can swing back and forth in your own personal aesthetics versus like a tour theory. And like, I'm not that I'm adamantly against it, but I do think it's maybe a bit Western and a bit individual and eco driven to not include the editors to not include the composers to not include the actors like it's not
I think the director or the person realizing the vision is, if it's a centered process, is trying to congeal all these elements together. But if it's somewhat decentered, there are maybe the primary ambassador for what the look or the feel is, but they're not the sole author. So I think there's a little letting go of ego to go like, yeah, I don't need, I can walk away and be happy that the story was built and made. the 20 % or 100 % of this character's tech lines were,
you know, developed and written by them. We gave them the outline, the writer gave them the outline and they were able to inject either their point of view or their authenticity within it.
Jordan Tragash (32:10.048)
Yeah, and you know, for me, I take a lot of my directing style and my kind of leadership style from my early mentors in the Chicago theater scene, you know, really specifically this director, Dato, who is an amazing, amazing director, a real icon on the scene there. And, you know, she's a master of absurdism. She's a master of incredible, of creating incredible images on stage.
truly her plays, you you really, you feel them, you experience them, you know, you don't watch them. And so, and she, you know, answers every question from an actor with a question, you know, or she'll bring something that she found that she just thought would be good in the play for whatever reason and would never feel the need to justify why, but would just bring the thing with her and just give it to the actor and say, you know,
work this in and at first the actors sometimes would be resistant, know, they'd be like, well, what scene, where, where do you want me, how do you want me to use this? And she'd go, you know, just carry it with you. And as we rehearse and you'll figure it out, you know, and always they would, you know, and that to me is sort of maximalist theory, right? It's this idea of like, add, add, add, add, then like,
at the last minute remove. Right. And what remains, know, what sticks, what resonates with the actor, what resonates with the crew is what is meant to be there. And and that's what I think gives her staging such a unique sort of quality. You know, you go and see you can go and see Shakespeare and like, you know, 70 percent of the Shakespeare productions, they kind of feel the same. then there's like
30 % of the Shakespeare productions where you're like, well, I've never seen that interpretation before and I'll never see it again, you know, and Dato makes every play feel like that, whether it's a new work, whether it's Tennessee Williams, whether it's straight, absurd craziness, you know, and, and that was just a great lesson for me that I still hold on to when I think about all the
Mishu Hilmy (34:09.902)
Yeah, I think with theater, least, and you have a longer rehearsal process, I think it's so solid to at least allow for the most exploration, right? And I think the director, whoever's leading the rehearsals can guide and narrow as needed. yeah, I'm not a fan of like, have the vision and I need to puppet master you into bending your spine to fit the vision.
I know like why just write a book, write a book, write a novel. Yeah, I want to control thoughts and movements.
Yeah. What's so interesting though is as my career continues in the world of filmmaking and I meet actors who are more established and producers who are more established, the more they want the singular vision, know, they're almost resistant to the idea of the collaboration. and I've had actors say to me, you know, I have a question about why I say this in the scene, but, don't change it.
don't change the line, you know, it's like, I'm going to figure out why this is here. And it's like, you know, it's, it's interesting because I find myself now, I have to preface a lot of my early conversations by saying, I want to be very collaborative. Like for me, I, I even believe a film shoot should be a space for experimentation. You know, it's like, I got my storyboard, but like, you know, I want to try it different ways and I want to see it different ways. And it makes my editors life hell and half.
time that's why I'm the editor you know but I think it creates interesting work right
Mishu Hilmy (35:44.898)
somewhere. think the price of decentering though is things take longer and they can become more complicated versus the individual vision, a centered process like, this is the boss, this is the chief, and they're the ones deciding it. So things can move faster and especially with such an uncertain and expensive industry and medium.
It makes sense why people are like, no, just want to be the person. And then we can move this along. So the project taking five years, it's going to take two years because it's a little bit more centered.
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's true. And I am a big advocate for a long development process for exactly that reason. know, I tell my for this for Chinggiale, you know, I told the producer right up front, like, you know, this is the first draft of the script and you're not allowed to start pitching it for like at least eight months because I need some more time to write. And, you know, he said, well, the last film, like we were funded before we even had a script. And like, in my mind, I was like,
Whoa, like no way, I could never, you know, like I just can't even imagine that, you know, I would, I would be like freaking out, you know, cause how are you going to go into something that's funded and like act like, I'm a singular director. Like this is my vision. And it's like, you didn't even have the script written three months ago. Like, how do you know what you're talking about? You know, it's like, I don't know.
Yeah. Right. And it's it's interesting. I think it's interesting if you think about the studio system before the 1948 Paramount decision that's sort of at least in the economics. That's how it was right like studios would go to exhibitors and say we have a slate of 40 movies. You pre buying these movies block booking these movies will help ultimately like fund these 40 question mark movies. But you know, maybe 10 or Westerns five or musicals or whatever.
Mishu Hilmy (37:35.266)
But that's like an old model. And the Supreme Court said that was illegal. I don't necessarily agree with that decision because I think it created, you had more opportunities at studio levels to make three dozen, four dozen movies versus now it's like every studio might make six or 12 and they're each individually selected. But yeah, I get the integrity and the trust of like, well, I don't have anything and I already got investors backing that.
It does it is a degree of integrity. I don't know if this works for me as an artist because then there's a weird pressure and you're like, well, they thought it was something and now they get the thing. Like, wait a minute, the producer told me it was going to be a fun travel genre horror. And now it's this tone poem about immigration.
Yeah, well, hey, you know, I what I'll say is like I'm also not speaking from ever having had that experience So there's any any producers out there who want to throw money at me for a script? haven't written like I can write pretty fast You know, I'll try and then we can revisit revisit this conversation in five years and maybe I'll say actually I like to this way. Like I don't even want a script, you know, right
the
Mishu Hilmy (38:47.544)
Yeah, when it comes to this, kind of one that you're working on the more maybe dreamlike one, the strange escape. Nice, nice, nice. Do you have like a sense of responsibility where if it is like abstract and maybe challenging and more art house and like a performance art piece, do you have a sense of responsibility where it's like, well, then maybe I need to make this for as low budget as possible because this is going to be occurring in private spaces. There's no
It's called the strange escape
Mishu Hilmy (39:16.504)
plan of digital distribution. do you associate like degree of responsibility to cost?
Yeah, but I'm always trying to make things as cheaply as possible. You know, that's for me, that's a given, you know, it needs to be. I just see so much waste in the film industry and I think it's endemic, honestly, and I think it's part of what's crippled the ability of the filmmaker in the modern day and age to make films, you know, rising accessibility of equipment is like, it's higher than it's ever been. And yet we still insist that we need five million dollars to make these
You know, like essentially indie drama, like intimate. You don't you don't need that. You know, it's your. Yeah. So and but also, don't I don't know anything about how to manage like a five million dollar budget either. But like, look at Enora, you know, Enora just killed the Oscars this year and it's on a six million dollar budget. You know, it's like that's pretty reasonable. I'm not saying that indie film should all be made for 10 grand like BAM was. But, you know, when you're starting out, I think you have to make
what you can with what you have and if all you have is 10 grand, like you can make a movie for that, you know, don't let that keep you from from living the dream of being artists that you want to be or telling a story that's inside you, you know, it's you can do it. You really can. And for me, it's like because I have an economics degree, I'm very aware of the value of money and value of art. And it's like I I want to make sure that if I'm going to get, you know, three
four or five million dollars to make a film like it's I'm gonna take advantage of that. You know, like I'm gonna make the best film I'm gonna be prepared because what I find as I move into larger budget projects is the producer begins to take a different role in those projects and they're really not as interested.
Jordan Tragash (41:11.438)
Creatively, you know, they're really more interested in how do we manage the budget? How do we get everything that we need for this script? And so it's like now it's really on me as the director to say Okay, my team needs to be solid because like these people are working their butts off to get us this money and distribute it properly and like they're not gonna make sure that the performance is good really, know, they're not gonna make sure that it that it fits together like it really is on me and they're trusting me with that and
And that's, and it's an honor, you know, and it's privilege and it's something that I need to hold in a space of value and respect, you know, and I need to do the work. Um, and yeah, that's, that's kind of something I try and live by, whether it's big or small, you know, you've to do the work. So.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, you know, sort of what do they hot like large indie budgets, sometimes it's like an exercise and not doing the thing. Like you're like, I'm gonna try and get this like budgeted on the higher medium high end. And like you, you're like, I'm gonna make this, you know, 90 minute 80 minute thing for 10k.
And you're not asking for stakeholders and you're trying to get by and you're trying to get partnerships and you're maybe investing some of your money and some of your partner's money to make it happen in goodwill. But that takes a certain degree of daring rather than I'm just not going to make the same. Cause my slide deck says it's a $2.5 million budget and now I can go to networking events. So yeah, I have a couple of scripts and you know, I'm working on this two, $2 million budget thing. I'm looking for investors like
Yeah, I think how do you like, yeah, the exercise of making what? Where does that come from for you of, you know, for Bam, for instance, like I remember you had the script, I read it in like a month and a half later. Like, you any feedback on this? I'm shooting in two weeks. Like, so what what sort of really instigated that spirit? You know, just
Jordan Tragash (43:08.174)
Just really the creation of BAM! Can I have two things? One was to you me, this actor who I just worked with was in this younger sister role and I wanted that character to feel young and she was aging. And so it was like, I have to make it now because she's not going to be young enough soon. also it just, I've always kind of liked to think of myself as like a doer.
And you know, I was writing a lot. I'd written seven features, I think, in Chicago before I wrote BAM and I knew I wanted to move to LA and I just, it kind of became this thing where it was like, okay, I gotta make something before I go just really to remember my time here, you know, because that time is running out, you know, and that's what sort of brought BAM to life. yeah, and I just think for me, it's flexibility.
That's like the big thing that like you're not afforded with it, which is so, so counterintuitive to the autores theory of like you have this director who's going to make the decisions. And it's like for me, it's like, no, it's like the son makes the decisions. You know, it's like the space I can get makes decisions, you know, like it's, it's not up to me. I'm just trying to do the best with what I have. And that was something I expressed a lot to Matthew when we shot. It was really trying to think in like a documentary type of sensibility where
we're gonna have these characters, know, they're fictional characters, we're gonna put them in a real place and we're just gonna record everything that happens and then I'm gonna try and make a narrative out of it a little bit in the edit and this is kind of the rough shape of the narrative. You we wanna highlight community, we wanna highlight plutonic love, we wanna highlight the way people struggle in late stage capitalism, especially young people without a ton of support, queer people, know, people of color and so that was kind of our guiding light per se.
Yeah, yeah. What was like, as you're kind of getting farther and farther away from it, what you know, what was either, you know, the most challenging aspect and what like what was the best lesson learned from at least the, you know, breakneck, you know, 10k bam project?
Jordan Tragash (45:20.162)
man, mean, I, I don't even know if I can point to one thing, like for me, I just think BAM has been just a blessing and it has just been so full of blessings, not just for me, but I think for a lot of people who are involved in it and you know, it really was just a miracle, you know, that came out of.
perseverance. think like that was the biggest thing I learned was like this this lesson of perseverance like just don't give up like just get it in the can you know and and you can make something out of it in the edit and and you can tell your story and you can find what resonates and and yeah I think that
If I could go back and do it again, I don't know if I would do anything differently, honestly. I don't know if I would do anything differently because I think that there were so, there are so many like alternate realities between paths where bam just stalls and it doesn't get done. I'm forever indebted to Matthew and Andrew who provided the equipment, his brother and all of the actors, Tip, Tux, Noah, Khalil, Kumi. So all of them, you know, all the way down the line, Brandon, you know, everybody just.
was willing to do it and I'm so grateful and it's something that I look at and I'm just so proud of. Because for me it's a diary entry more so than it's a film or a career stepping stone or anything. It's like, if I never make another movie again at least I'll be able to look back on that and I'll be able to remember that time in Chicago which for me was one of the greatest periods of my life and I was able to capture that.
just a little bit, you know, but it's in there, it's in the film.
Mishu Hilmy (47:03.554)
I think like it just it's like that idea of like a time capsule. It just gets me thinking of the courage to make versus this needs to be a statement. This needs to be a calling card. This needs to be important capital and make capital a art rather than, don't know. I got a story. I think I'm going to leave Chicago pretty soon. I think this is a good enough at like the go. Yeah, we're going to do kind of docu style. We have a script, but we'll leave a lot of room for improvising.
I just love the spirit of, you know, making and finding. I get us when we're talking, I probably told you much times, but I still get inspired by the daring to go, yeah, I'm going to do this as low budget as possible. in like, I don't know, from idea to execution, it seemed like you did it in like five months, right? Or maybe maybe you've been thinking about it longer, but I just remember it seemed like you really got into it quickly.
Yeah, I mean, I think that the I know that the first read of the script that we had was in November of 2021. And then when we shot, started shooting in June. We shot over the course of eight weeks, weekends only with one weekend off because I took a trip to Montreal to visit my family. You know, it took a long time to edit. It probably took a year to edit and probably could have taken a little more time to edit it. Honestly, there's still some things that I watched. I'm like, I could tighten that up. But
But yeah, it's, I think the thing, there's two things that you said that I wanna respond to and the first is the idea of like a calling card film. I think it's like very ambitious to be like a filmmaker who's made a couple of shorts and you're like, I'm gonna make a calling card film and it's gonna book me the next Star Wars. And like for me, it's like, I never thought of it like that. I was just like, do I even wanna make films? Like let's.
put as little risk as possible into a film and we'll see if it's fun. And I finished BAM and I would tell Elena, know, my partner who was so helpful in the making of the film did the score and had got us a lot of locations and is an associate producer on it. But I would say to Elena, would say, I'm never making another film again. Like call me Terrence Malick, cause it's going to be 15 years before you see me come back out. then it's like, but then the thing is like, if you can complete the film like that in itself.
Jordan Tragash (49:21.454)
is a calling card, you know? You don't need to worry so much about who's gonna see it, what are they gonna think at that point, know? It's just like, can I do it for myself? And then people see it and they say, I don't know, that was all right, you know? And they say, I would be willing to work with this person or see what else they have kind of in their back pocket, and then it becomes a calling card just because it's out in the world and it exists.
And then the other thing is the thing about message. What's the message of it? And it's, just don't believe that as filmmakers, we should spend our time worrying about message because I believe that audiences based on context of their personal life and the intrinsically empathetic experience of seeing another person, a human being in front of you, the emotional connection is if the filmmaking itself doesn't get in the way, right? Like it needs to...
The filmmaking is all about disappearing into the side so that the tunnel between the performance and the audience is clear and through that tunnel, the audience brings context and then they tell you what they think it was about. And, you know, it kind of mirrors something that I heard Scorsese say in an interview where he said, you know, a filmmaker can't tell you what like their films are about. know, only a theorist can look at the whole body of work and say,
this filmmaker makes films about X, Y, Z. And I just really took that to heart and I find myself battling now constantly with people about it, especially here in Los Angeles where everything needs to be tied to a really specific, clear social justice oriented message in this day and age, which is important and valuable as well. yeah, I've had people say to me,
when I do readings of scripts that I'm in development, actually this director who I mentioned earlier, Dato, I remember came to a reading of a road trip film I had written and afterwards she came up to me, she said, you know, when I picked up the script and I read it, I felt nothing. And then when I saw, she said, and then when I saw it read out loud, you know, I felt so much because it was a person saying the words. And whenever I see a real person say something, you can't help but feel some way about it, you know.
Jordan Tragash (51:37.238)
And I was like, that's interesting. Yeah. So.
It's I mean, I try to think a lot about there's what you can control and what you can't control and you cannot ever control like the audience's emotional experience, intellectual experience, thematic deconstruction, their projection.
And that's what makes it, I think, an interesting endeavor to try and use a medium to evoke emotion and all these tools, a great score, great performance, great story structure, great images. But at the end of the day, like, you know, five year old sitting in front of the brutalist is not going to make much, much meaning out of it. So like to abandon all control you enter and to return to that thing of.
you know, shoot, I'm gonna be like Terrence Malick. This is draining. This is exhausting. I'm not gonna do this for another 15 years. But if you're in it and you're like 80 % present, 90 % engaged, you're like joyful, curious, childlike when you're on that set of BAM or on these other sets, that's like nothing can, no one can take that away. Even though your goal is to make a story where the audience is afraid or the audience is like moved to tears.
but instead they're watching and they're moved to laughter. So I think there's like a degree of humility to go like, can only try my best to communicate, but maybe I just need to let go of, know, saying, well, I'm I'm a, this kind of director. I'm a crime director and my themes are, you know, justice and kindness and the spirit of the human mind. Like, okay, I don't know. Like that just makes to me like writing probably just a bit harder and you're less creative because of it. Yeah. I mean,
Jordan Tragash (53:15.104)
at least for me, like I'm sure there are people who that works for them, or helps them, or that's how they're trained, because there are people who will argue to the death that no, you can't control with specificity what the audience feels when they watch a film. That's why you make a film, and I've had people say that to me, and I say, I don't know if I can do that, but maybe you can.
Yeah, so it's part of what's fascinating about the form, you know, and what's so exciting about the form is that it is a combination of things that can elicit emotion and what emotion that is, think, depends on the viewer most times.
Right. Yeah, the viewer, the context, like that's, I am grateful for the 10, 11 years of grinding at comedy because it gives the illusion of control. It's like, well, I know how to write something or direct something or perform something in such a way where I'll say the line or someone will say the line and a second and half or two seconds later, the audience will register and they'll laugh. But, you know, if there's someone in the audience who's like heckling.
then the laugh won't be registered because the audience is paying attention to something else. So there's a lot of things that could interrupt that. I try, yeah, the exercise, I'm trying to evoke something, but just because I'm trying to evoke it or communicate it doesn't mean I'll succeed.
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting that you bring up laughter, you know, because there, I think laughter is amazing. I love to make people laugh with my work. think all my work kind of has a tongue in cheek sort of ironic comedy to it. and you do like all, there are ways that are known to make people laugh, to make people cry, you know, like especially with music and stuff. But then there's always like,
Jordan Tragash (54:57.59)
I remember I was seeing this play about like a school shooter and like the school shooter came in and like killed the classmates and the guy next to me is like cracking up, you know, and it's like he's laughing because he's uncomfortable, you know, so it's like, you you sure there's 50 ways that you can learn from a book on comedy or from practicing that you learn, OK, this joke structure is good and it's going to work and, know, or if I whip pan to tuck sitting in the corner after a scene that's 10 minutes long and you don't reveal them at all and they say.
Hey guys, can I just get my weed and get out of here and everybody's gonna laugh, you know, but it's like there's also 50 other ways that nobody will ever be able to identify or think of that will cause someone to laugh that will just come out of where they're at in that moment, you know, that day. And so it's like, you just do your best, I think. And you hope that the audience walks away with something.
Yeah, you know, yeah, given that after bab, you're kind of like, I think I might need to take a break. Like, how have you been? What's prompted you to return? Like, what have been the thoughts, the feelings, sensations that are like, actually, I kind of want to work on this chingali or I want to work on this dream piece.
You know, I just can't stay away from it. You know, I think it was very rose colored glasses that I would say, I'm never, I just think it's not true. Like I think I am at heart really a filmmaker and I've tried a lot of different art forms and a lot of different mediums. you know, I'm like, maybe I'm actually a writer first and I'm like one B a filmmaker, you know, but.
but it really came out of momentum from BAM. It was like people watch BAM, they like BAM, they say, what can we do to get you to make another film, of, collaborators, just fans. And when you have that experience, it's hard to say no, because it's like this brought value to people and they want another one or they want something new or something different or whatever. And it's like, I did it once, maybe I can do it twice.
Jordan Tragash (56:56.554)
And maybe there will be a third one, I don't know, you know? But yeah, and I feel blessed for that because that's not the case, you know, for everybody. The phone doesn't always ring after you make your thing or whatever, but yeah, it just kind of happened to break that way, you know? And I'm blessed now to work with new collaborators who are more experienced, who have
Yeah.
Jordan Tragash (57:26.258)
great skill sets that if they had been on BAM, they would have been like, what the hell's happening here, you know? But they still like the movie and where they like, you know, the script, the new script, or they like whatever, you know, they will just want to go to Italy. Yeah, a lot of people, it's I just want to go to Italy, you know, and, and we've reached a point now where
that's not enough anymore. Like I'm bam, like I want to make a movie. Like that was all I needed because nobody wanted to make the movie, you know? And now it's like, we need, we need more, you know, in order to get involved in that way. And I wish that everybody I've ever met could be a part of that movie, but it's like, this is not possible, you know? And then that kind of ignites you to say,
well, let me make something that's more feasible than I can do in Chicago that more people can be involved in, you know? And then you kind of have this thing and now you're looking at two projects, you know? And it's like, oh, geez, how did this happen? I thought I wasn't going to make another movie for 15 years and now I'm speaking into existence another one, you know? But that's a blessing. That's a blessing.
Yeah, getting to practice means and mode of expression, right? Like if you're enjoying it, that's great. And if you're not, maybe take a pause.
Yeah. But also, you know, it's like there are days when I don't enjoy it, but I feel the obligation to continue because now the people that have become masked around me, you know, and my grandfather used to have a saying he would say all the time, which is follow the money, you know, just follow the money. you know, despite the dripping capitalism of that, the capitalistic nature of that statement, you know, it's like there is some truth to it. You know, it's like
Jordan Tragash (59:10.4)
What am I going to say? Like, no, I'm not going to make this movie. I'm not going to go to Italy and see if I might be able to make this movie. You know, it's like, you got to give it the benefit of the doubt. You know, you got to follow the momentum. And when it comes, you need to be willing to accept it because I think a lot of times people are afraid to answer the call. You know, they're afraid of what it bring. you know, there's nothing wrong with being afraid, but you have to work despite the fear or with the fear, fear in the end.
You know, for John.
Right. Yeah. I mean, it's the journey of your life. are you going to the, you'll probably end up with regrets if you don't at least take a swing and given, given how like long things take and how uncertain, costly and risky the industry is like, what, keeps you in it? What keeps you motivated? What keeps you returning?
Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know. mean, honestly, I kind of believe like a film could fall apart at any time. You know, I've had films for longer than the film that I'm working on now blow up under me, you know, and it's it's like, just because it's looking good today doesn't mean it's going to be looking good this time next month, you know. But for me, I think it's just fun. It's just a lot of fun. And I just love to write and I love the little like, ooh, I get from someone when I say.
I just finished a new script and they asked me what it's about and I say, you know, it's about a bisexual writer in Chicago who's gifted a magical clock by his non-binary younger sibling that causes time to move forward at rapidly increasing intervals until all of reality has fallen apart and they're like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know, and then next month I'm like, it's a Western, it's bam on horses, you know? It's like, it's just fun. Like, it's a cool thing to be able to do.
Jordan Tragash (01:00:54.038)
you know.
Great. Jordan, yeah, thank you so much for sharing. It was an absolute pleasure getting to talk
Yeah, absolutely. Such a pleasure to talk to you always, Michou. And I'm so glad that you decided to record one of our conversations. Yeah, yeah. It was great to talk to you, as always.
Mishu Hilmy (01:01:17.774)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. All right, creative prompt. This one, hopefully, is a fun, easy one that you can just jump right on in.
Pick a short scene or a monologue, something you've written or performed or just love that you've seen on TV. If you love it, just choose it and try performing it three times in a row. And each time change the tone or the backstory or whatever element you want, change it three times in a row. No overthinking, no cutting, no edits, no fixing, just reset and go. Heck, feel free to record yourself while you're doing it. If that also adds a little bit of fun and pressure, the goal isn't to get it right. It's just to see.
what surprises show up when you give yourself permission to play and explore and try doing something iteratively, improvisationally, and out of the joy of just doing it for fun, for curiosity, and even doing it poorly. So that's it. Reset, don't rewrite, give a monologue a try. And even if you don't act, try doing it with several sentences and relate to the struggle actors may have when it comes to committing choices.
Alright, I'll see you next time.