The Twenty One Clear Podcast

Following on from last month's panel from Kennesaw State's Family Enterprise Center, Adam returns to have a conversation with Andrea Carpenter of The Transition Strategists. And this time they get practical: how to take a pulse on your life in the family company, the three questions every family member should keep asking, the headlines exercise that opened the door to Adam's own transition, and a LinkedIn story from a former CEO that shows the cost of an abrupt exit.

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Chapters
[00:00] Welcome and Recap — Following up on Episode 11's Kennesaw State panel
[02:00] My Thirteen Years and Why "General" Titles Drift
[04:30] The Two Roots: Open Dialogue and Twenty Years of Family Meetings
[07:00] If You've Never Held a Family Meeting, Start Here
[09:30] Opening the Door When You're the Next Generation
[12:00] "Build a Great Company With a Strong Family" — The Opening Line
[14:30] Andrea on Who Starts the Conversation
[17:00] The Three Questions Every Family Member Should Ask
[20:00] Engagement Isn't Automatic — Reward, Recognition, and Development
[23:00] Andrea's Objectives Matrix and Defining Your Deal Breakers
[25:30] The Headlines Exercise: How I Stepped Out of My Roles
[28:00] Pete's Story From LinkedIn — The Cost of an Abrupt Exit
[29:30] Closing — How to Keep Thinking About Your Inner Family Business

Creators and Guests

Host
Adam Hatcher
Family Business Consultant

What is The Twenty One Clear Podcast?

The benefits of working with family include mutual trust, a shared long-term outlook, and quick decision making. However, your inner family business relationships can also cause chaos for the company and family.

What can you do?

Join us as we explore chaos proofing your family business so you can build a great company with a strong family around it.

21clear.com

Adam Hatcher: Hey there.

Welcome to the 21 Clear podcast.

I'm your host, Adam Hatcher, the founder
of 21 Clear, a family business consulting

firm, and our goal here is to help
you chaos-proof your family business

with each episode that we release.

Today, we're gonna follow
up on episode number 11.

In 11, I shared an excerpt of a
virtual panel I got to be part of.

Kennesaw State University, which is in
North Atlanta here in Georgia, has a

Family Enterprise Center, and they invited
me and two other next gens who had been in

their family companies to talk about what
it's like to leave your family company.

In the last podcast, I shared an excerpt
of that, and the three of us focused on

what it feels like, because inevitably,
you and all your family members with

whom you work and own the company with
will both no longer work there, and one

day no longer own the business as well.

So for those who had not thought about
the idea, been scared to talk about it,

were somewhere in thinking about it, or
just wanted to be proactive, we talked

about, well, what's the experience
like from three people who had done it?

Well, in this episode, I, I wanna
get a little bit more into planning.

Andrea Carpenter, uh, leads the
Transition Specialist Group, and Andrea

had me back for a second time to talk
about inner family business issues,

and this time we actually leaned again
into how to leave your company well.

But instead of focusing on the
feeling of leaving and the experience,

Andrea and I got- practical.

We talk in this episode, or at least
in this excerpt that I'm gonna share

with you, about the importance of
keeping a pulse on how it's going,

understanding where you are in your
journey in the family company that

will begin, it will have a middle,
and at some point it will end.

And we give some practical questions
to ask, particularly if you are a

next gen working in the business.

And then Andrea asked me a good question
about how, if you don't have these kind

of conversations, you can get them going.

So I'm excited to share this excerpt
with you, and I hope it helps you as you

think about your inner family business.

I was in my family's company for 13 years.

I started as the general
counsel, which is a, a mistake.

If you ever start in your family's
company, don't let them put the word

general in your title, because then you
will just end up doing everything else.

Mm-hmm.

So I was general counsel, and then became
corporate strategy lead with a board

member, was s- then stepped into head
of corporate strategy, and then added to

that vice president of human resources.

So for my last seven or so years there,
it was all three of those roles combined.

But what was interesting And this was
something I shared with the leadership

when we announced, my father and I
announced my exit, is that he and I

always kept a dialogue going about
what the future of my career was.

He would openly say to me in my
annual reviews, "I want you to feel

free to think outside this company."

Uh, and that came from his
ex- personal experience.

My dad graduated from the
University of Georgia on Friday.

He went to work in the family company on
Monday, and as he said it to me, "The only

person who ever promoted me was my father,
and sometimes I had to buy my promotion."

So he wanted me, and I have two
siblings, he always wanted us to know

that we had value outside the company.

That's that hiring part, putting
people- Mm-hmm ... through a process.

But then we kept that alive,
um, throughout, and we never

shared that with anyone 'cause
it probably could panic people.

Like, "What?

They're always talking about him leaving."

But that, Andrea, was one
thing that was helpful.

Mm.

The second thing that was helpful
in helping me realize a new step

in my career was that we had...

Golly, what's it been now?

It's probably been 20
years of family meetings.

So if you've never had one of these, I
was working with a family recently, and

our sit-down together was the first time
all the people who worked in and owned

the company, who were family members,
had ever sat in a room and talked about

the fact that they worked in and owned
the company together, and the company

had been around for over 25 years,
and that's normal for a lot of us.

It's an odd con- We figure we
see you on Sunday after church,

Yeah I see you in meetings.

Like, what's a family meeting?

But these are just quickly, meet...

When you sit down, the family members
who work in the business, who own

the business, and sometimes the
family members around that group too-

Mm-hmm ... the ones impacted, sit
down and work on the unique dynamic in

how you work in and own the business.

So I've got about 20 years of
those, not just with what I do

with other families, myself.

Mm.

That, I didn't know when we started
those meetings that that meeting was

where seeing a new step in my career
was gonna, uh, was gonna start.

Mm.

But I am so...

If you haven't had one of
those, I deeply encourage them.

It's what I facilitate for families,
because I can't imagine that

conversation having happened in an
executive meeting, in my annual review

with my dad, like, in a one-off.

My brother and I play golf together.

Like, just walking up the 10th fairway
with my brother, that's not the place for

that, nor did it create the space for it.

So the- Mm ... roots, the root for me,
one, was that the dialogue was always open

to think outside of it, but then there was
a fam- there were family meetings Yeah.

And I think meetings and open
communication and, and place for

everyone to talk is important.

There's likely people listening, maybe
they don't have that structure currently.

There's no, like, "I wanna talk
about the future," whether that's

staying, whether that's going.

Just there are no meetings,
like, to, to, to bring things up.

Uh, so what, what advice would you
give to someone who maybe is in a

position where they're trying to
open communication more as a family?

Where would you tell them to start?

All right.

Where do they work in the, where
do they work in the business?

Do they have the controlling shares?

Like, do they control the business
from an ownership perspective?

Or are they- I would think
they don't ... the next gen?

They're the next gen.

They don't.

Yeah.

Okay.

A next gen who might be listening here.

They, they- Got it ... wanna initiate
conversations about the future,

but that, that current controlling
generation, it, is maybe not...

It, it sounds like your dad
had a lot of awareness being

the second generation already.

He felt some of those things.

But many successors who are the second
generation, they're, they're coming

in from that founding generation,
which sometimes is a very different

dynamic of, "Well, I built this thing.

I worked really hard.

I don't want my kids to be entitled."

So how, how do you start if, if you're
thinking like, "Hey, this might actually

be a family company whether I'm gonna
stay or whether I'm gonna go, but

we should, we should talk about it."

What advice would you give?

Mm.

All right.

So it's interesting, like, some
of the things you talked about

for those of us that have a
controlling interest in the company.

I'm gonna touch that even
though you told me not to, okay?

Mm-hmm.

And then we'll go back.

When I talk to f- when I meet families
that are needing help, th- that want

to start having conversations and want
someone there, as someone said recently,

"They act better when you're here."

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, and having

We've used facilita- we
use facilitators as well.

Have used.

Mm-hmm.

Do use.

Yeah.

It helps.

It really helps when a family member
doesn't have to play that role.

Yeah.

When it's the person who has control
of the business through ownership, the

reason they typically wanna talk is
because either there was a disaster

in, or a near disaster in the previous
generation, going from gen one- Mm

to gen two.

Like, they experienced it, and they
don't ever wanna go through that again.

Or they see people around them, family
companies- Mm ... they know around

them that are starting to go through
casualty situations or c- or chaos.

Mm.

And they don't wanna do that.

Sometimes things seem to be going
great, and it's actually the next

generation that picks up on it.

I remember talking with one family,
and there was a lot of anxiety.

It was a high-debt business.

A lot of anxiety in the next generation
about what would happen if there

was an emergency situation with the
two siblings that owned the company.

Mm-hmm And so you talk to the next
gens, they say, "We don't know

if we'd all of a sudden all be
in debt or what's gonna happen."

And then you talk to the siblings that
own the company, they said, "What?

We told them eight years ago."

Like- Mm ... "We were at lunch,
and we told them what happens.

What more do they need?

It's more than we had."

So sometimes the need for the
meeting comes, the next generation

has a sense, "This could be so much
better," or, "There's something I

really need help talking about."

Mm-hmm.

'Cause I mean, there's an anxiety to it.

So if that's, if that is you,
this is what I have found helpful.

When I, I sat with a family last
week, and we had their first meeting,

and when we start, Andrea, we say,
"Okay, when you work with your

family, you typically want two things.

You wanna build a great
company with a strong family."

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Or a healthy family.

A great company with a healthy family.

Now, a great company doesn't
have to be huge, okay?

We're, we're not all gonna be Marriott.

We're not all, not all
gonna be the Waltons.

You don't have to be.

You can have one, two, three locations.

You can be regional.

Whatever it is.

You, whatever financial and community
impact you wanna have with the

business, that's your greatness.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But you wanna have a great
company with a healthy family.

Now, you might wanna be best
friends and see each other every

week, or you may just want to
enjoy getting together when you do.

Whatever your answer is, I love to
ask families that upfront because

when they say, "Yeah, well, yeah, of
course," like, who says no to that?

Who says, "Blah," no,
some people actually.

Um, but, but when you start there, like,
so if you're a next gen, "Hey, I work here

because I've dreamed about a great company
and a really strong family around it."

Mm-hmm.

And we never talk about that.

Like, that's not...

You never sit in an executive meeting,
I did that for a decade, never sat in an

exec meeting and the vice president of
operations looked at me and my father and

said, "How are y'all working together?"

Mm-hmm.

"How are you working with your sister
who doesn't work in the business?

What do you communi-"
Never one time asked that.

Yeah.

So I would like a great company, a healthy
family, and I'd like to talk about it.

Like, that's a easy way to step into it.

Yeah.

I, I like that framing, and it's
also, it, there's nothing threatening.

Well, okay, you know your parents, but
there's really nothing threatening about,

I, I can see an opportunity for us to talk
about how to make our family stronger.

That's oftentimes a really big pull.

You're talking about we ha- we have this
concept of there's your family community

and your family business community.

Sometimes people are in both.

Sometimes people are only in one,
but you're talking about what,

what is the integration of these?

How do, how do we as a family want that
to look and, and what does that look like?

I, I'm curious, Adam, in your
work- What percentage of the time

are, are next gens reaching out to
you as, like, the initial point?

Because at least for, for us, I see 50
to 60% of the time it's actually the next

generation, because you're the one with
the excitement for the future, and the

energy, and the passion a lot of times.

Like, "I think we can make this better.

Let's talk about what
this would look like."

And so you can empower yourself, and you
can get help to find the words if you

don't know exactly what the words are,
but you can start these conversations

about what it looks like, because it
is gonna be super impactful on you and

the next generation, whether you're
actively in the business or not, so.

Yeah.

Uh, f- I'm similar.

Yeah.

Half the time I connect with a family,
it's the generation that's got ownership

control, which is- Mm-hmm ... not always,
but typically the older generation.

Yeah.

That, that situation flips sometimes.

Yeah.

Uh, and then half the time it's the g-
typ- it's the generation without control.

Yeah.

Uh, but then my goal, when you do...

And y'all are the same way.

When you work with a family, different
than a ca- than a CPA or a wealth

manager for you who's looking
out for y- your best interest.

Yep.

The goal then is to bring everybody
together, and you work on that

unique dynamic of how they work
in and own the company together.

Yeah.

For the next gens, when you...

Okay, so if you think, "Do I need
to have a family meeting now?"

So I took some time, and you and I
talked about last time, I reflected on

everything I'd ever learned about family
companies, and wrote a book called

The Chaos-Proof Family Business, and
dedicated a few chapters to leaving.

And there were a few questions
that I wrote down, and I'll share

a few of them, 'cause they may be
helpful- Mm-hmm ... to the listeners.

So if you are not in control
of the business, I think...

Or, or if you are, it doesn't matter.

You, you could be in
control, not in control.

You could supervise a family member.

Those are three distinct positions.

I think at all times you need to have a
pulse on how you're doing in the company,

'cause remember, you're on a journey
that's going to end at some point.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and we were joking earlier, like,
something's gonna force you out if

you, if you don't do it one day.

Mm-hmm.

But if you're a next gen, and I sat
with, thinking back to a family from

three months ago, remember asking
the next generation, a- and you

just ask everyone equally, "Take a
minute and think, is there a future

at this company that excites you?

Like, you can see...

Can you see responsibilities that
you can earn, a, a type of work you

can enjoy, the compensation that you
need or want for the life you want?"

Mm-hmm.

Like, take a breath.

You're probably working
really hard right now.

Family companies, we, we work hard.

But is there something five
years down the road you want?

And

can the organization pro- can this
organization provide that to you?

Mm-hmm.

I have seen families that sat and
said, family members who thought, "Oh,

this is the kind of thing I wanna do."

And Andrea, the company could
not reasonably have grown into

that within the next 10 years.

Mm-hmm.

Um, in tough situations, you and
I probably get a lot of phone

calls when things are hard.

Mm-hmm.

Can you do your job wholeheartedly?

Hmm.

Can you bring your talents, your
opinions, your spirit, your personality?

Can you be you in the job you have?

Mm-hmm.

Which a lot of times when I
start working with families,

that's something we have to do.

We have to, 'cause a lot of
us drift into jobs over time.

Let's define the role the company needs,
and then can you do that wholeheartedly?

Mm-hmm.

Because what's interesting
in family companies...

So I did about seven years as the head of
HR in our family's company, and learned

that employee engagement, uh, is...

A mentor taught me it
can be really simple.

Mm-hmm.

Like three things, okay?

Imagine it like, uh, if you're
watching on YouTube, I've got,

uh, my fingers in a triangle.

Three things.

Do you enjoy your work environment?

Are you rewarded and recognized fairly?

And do you have a chance to develop...

Can you see something you wanna develop
to, and are you being supported?

All right, so let me go back.

Do you like your work environment?

And that's typically, do you respect your
boss and feel respected, and do you like

the way everyone behaves at the company?

All right.

Mm-hmm.

Just 'cause you're working
at your family's company

does not mean that is true.

Just 'cause you report to your uncle
does not mean you all work well together,

or you will automatically work toget-
well together without being intentional

in how- Mm-hmm ... you work together.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So to go to the second one,
rewarded and recognized fairly.

Just because you work in your
family's company doesn't mean you're

receiving market compensation,
or you might be overcompensated,

which has its own, can have its own
baggage that comes with it as well.

Yeah.

Just because you work with your
family doesn't mean you all recognize

each other and compliment and affirm
each other for what you do well.

And then to that last side,
development, just because you

work with your family doesn't mean
you can clearly see what's next.

Hmm.

And doesn't mean that you're
being supported in getting there.

Yeah.

Working in a family company does not
inevitably provide reward and recognition,

development in the work environment that
will make a family member wanna stay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So when we talk about can you do your
job wholeheartedly- You would think

when you go to work with your family,
"Oh, it's just gonna be automatic."

No.

Like, you have to give it just
the same thought, if not more-

Mm-hmm ... than another fam-
another employee in your company.

Yeah.

I love that example, and we have
a tool called the objectives

matrix, which we start every single
person in the family off with.

Like, what do you really want to achieve?

And you think about your family first.

For you, if you have a spouse or
a partner, um, if you have any

children, what are the things that
you want to accomplish in life?

I, I love the, the triangle, and, but
sometimes maybe growth is important to

you, but maybe you're at a stage of life,
you're like, "Actually, that's not, that's

not something that is super important to
me or that I'm optimizing for right now."

And so to be able to put words
behind, "Yeah, that's a deal breaker.

I need to be compensated fairly.

And that's a deal breaker for me
because if I am not compensated

fairly, then I'm gonna walk away."

Or, if my siblings are working in the
business and they're being compensated

the same as me, but they're not working,
they're not actually working, they're

just getting compensation because
they're part of the family and, and

that's how it was set up, that could
feel like a deal breaker to you.

And any of those things are valid, right?

It doesn't, your impression of what
is a deal breaker or what is not

doesn't really matter to other people.

You just need to have conviction
around what are the things

that are most important to you.

Because then as you start
to explore, "Should I stay?

Should I go?

Um, how fast is it gonna go?

What is the timeline gonna look like?"

All of these other pieces that can start
to come out as you make decisions on, on

all of that, you can actually make them
grounded in, "Okay, I actually know what

are the most important things to me."

And so I, I just wanted to bring
in, I think there's some inner

work, too, to do as well before
you're just in a family meeting.

Like, I'm assuming you put a lot of
thought in before you went into the

family meeting and said, "I think I'm
ready to, to go kind of do this thing."

Like, like, you had, you had really
thought about what that would look

like and what the case would be so
that you could come with a compelling

case to start a conversation.

So maybe can you take us a little
bit- Mm-hmm ... to that moment

around wh- how, how you told, um, and
what that conversation looked like?

Yeah.

What I l- liked, even hearing the way you
asked that, is because we were in family

meetings, again, these meetings focused
on how we work in and own the company

together, it wasn't a surprise topic.

Mm-hmm.

And it actually evolved over time.

It wasn't an acute moment.

And so- Mm ... this is something
that I like to do with families.

Our family consultant did it with us.

Before we got to the meeting,
he emailed out a prompt, and

he had us imagine headlines.

And he said, "Think three..."

It was either three or five.

"Think three to five years out."

What headlines would you want the local
newspaper to be writing about you,

about the family, about the company?

Mm-hmm.

And you were supposed
to do it independently.

So my siblings, my parents, and you're
not supposed to look- Mm-hmm ... or

send them to anybody ahead of time.

And of course, he would talk
with us before the meeting.

Yeah, yeah.

And I didn't write, "My time is now."

Like, that was not one of my headlines.

But in doing that, it
gave me space to reflect.

So I need to tell you
a little bit about me.

I believe if you work in your
family's company, that you need to

always be working yourself out of
a job, just like any other company.

If, if you, if your family's company
depends on you, that company is as

vulnerable as any non-family company.

Mm-hmm.

That is why succession
and development exists.

And so if I'm going to teach that
in the company, I had to live it.

Mm-hmm.

And so over time, Andrea,
we were growing the company.

I was always working to replace myself
with people that were better than me.

So that's going on when I
have to answer this question.

And in answering it, I realized
that it was time for me to

start letting go of my roles.

Mm-hmm.

And I wrote that, and as
we sat in the meeting...

But then, a- and so that was it.

I just said- Mm-hmm ... "My time in
these roles has ended because there

are people ready to take them."

Mm-hmm.

"And the company will be better for that."

Now, I didn't think the headline
all the way through from there.

But what was nice about it, and was not
threatening and didn't make that scary

to say, is one, there were no executives.

Mm-hmm.

That wasn't a team meeting.

There was no...

That was just us- Mm ... the fam-
the family members, the ownership,

like, just my siblings and my parents.

Mm-hmm.

And then everyone else did the same thing.

So I got to hear what was
important to each of them, and

what they hoped for and imagined.

Yeah.

So i- i- if it sounded like
it was some, you know, bomb

shock in a meeting, it wasn't.

It was actually very gradual,
and it started with everybody

thinking three to five years out.

Mm-hmm.

I love that, and I think just the space,
there's so many different activities and

questions and conversation structures.

Like, the world is, is so infinite
in how these things might come up, so

you can figure out what works best for
you, what works best for your family.

But I love that it came up in a natural
way, that it came up around, uh,

ambitions, and it was rooted in, in what
was important to you, that you were gonna

be able to do that, and that was already a
value- that they, that they knew you had.

And that is just an excerpt
of a much longer conversation

that Andrea and I have.

I'm gonna link to the transition
specialists in the show notes.

You'll be able to get to the full version
of the podcast, and I am excited for

you to hear the whole conversation.

I hope this was helpful to you.

Every month when we put out this
podcast, we wanna give you somewhere

between 20 and 30 minutes just to
think about how your family works

in and owns the company together.

21 Clear, when you look at us from
an entire content perspective,

each month we publish a podcast, a
newsletter, and somewhere between

12 and 15 posts on LinkedIn.

If you take all those together, it's
about an hour of your time each month,

and all that content is meant to help
you think about the dynamics of how you

work in and own your company together.

There's a lot of stuff
about how to deal...

You know, develop yourself personally.

There's a lot about how to set
smart business strategy, but

that inner family business is
something that's hard to focus on.

So our hope is that each of the things
that we publish helps you do that.

In the show notes, you can subscribe to
the newsletter and follow me on LinkedIn.

Here's some of the stuff you'll see too.

I had a former CEO of his family's
company jump into the comments on a

post that I wrote, and it actually
relates to leaving your family company.

So I want to close us with this, and I
hope this is an endorsement to you for

spending more time just thinking about
and reading and listening to things

about how you work with your family.

All right.

So in response to a post I had
put up on LinkedIn about leaving,

Pete stepped in and wrote this.

He says, "Eight years ago, I
hired a succession coach to begin

transitioning the business to my son.

Thirty days in, the coach met with
me and said, 'You need to leave.

Your voice is simply too big, even
though you don't carry the title.'

So I was there on Friday and gone
on Monday, and the next year of

my life was at best difficult."

And then Pete goes on to share
practical advice that he has learned

in reflecting on his exit that he would
give to anyone else, particularly if

you are the controlling generation,
either by title or by ownership

or both in your family company.

That, y'all, is the value of
engaging this deeper inner

family business work and thought.

So I hope this podcast has helped you.

I hope LinkedIn and the newsletter
help you, and every part of

this is about helping you better
chaos-proof your family company.

I appreciate you joining us.

I look forward to the-- being with
you in the next episode, and as my

grandfather would have said, thank
you so very, very much for listening.