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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Every product marketer on the
face of the earth knows this
feeling, walking into any
conversation, whether it's
with sales or product, or any
executive, and feeling like
you're mentally prepared to
be on the defensive already
ready to prove yourself before
the conversation even starts.
Because half the time, no
one really understands what
product marketing actually
does and what's worse.
Most product marketers
never get taught on how
to prove their value.
We know how to
build messaging.
We know how to
create narratives.
We know how to
launch products.
But showing the impact of
all of that work, translating
it into something that the
business can see and measure
and believe in, that's where
so many pmms get stuck.
So today we're getting real
about how Pmms can demonstrate
their value in a way that's
simple, credible, and
impossible to misunderstand.
Which brings me
to today's guest.
It is my absolute pleasure
to have Julian Sauvage
on the show, although he
is become an adored CMO.
He came from strong PMM Roots.
In fact, he's one of the
few marketing leaders who's
basically done it all from
early career PMM work to CMO.
Over more than 15 years, he's
helped B2B SaaS companies
go from having customers
say things like, so what do
you guys even do to, how did
I ever live without this?
and that that wasn't all,
he's done it at incredible
brands like Salesforce,
gong Clary, and now Cordial.
Today at Cordial, he leads
as CMO building from the
ground up, shaping brand,
go-to market strategy,
demand generation, customer
marketing, and all of that,
turning brand investments
into measurable pipeline.
On top of that, Julian is
an adv and investor, and
a vocal thought leader who
isn't afraid to challenge
conventional wisdom.
Julian, it's amazing to
have you on the show.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm, uh, glad we're here.
Awesome.
Okay, let's dive right in.
So today's topic is
around proving the
impact of messaging.
So help me create some context
for our listeners here.
Let's diagnose the
problem a little bit.
Why is it so hard for
pmms to prove impact?
I.
think it is hard to prove
impact because there's a lot
of different choices, uh,
that pmms can have, right?
In terms of like where
they can prove the impact.
Uh, when you think
about it, PMM.
Really spans across all
the different, you know,
stages of the funnel.
And you can have impact at
the top of the prefun with
like, awareness type metrics.
You can have, uh, of
course impact at the
top of the funnel.
You can help, uh, sales
accelerate their deals.
You can even help CS with
product adoption, like the,
just like the menu is so vast.
And I think because of
that, that's a challenge.
Um, because pmms tend to, you
know, be very cross-functional
and they want to please many.
Stakeholders And, and
as such, as such, they
can't pick um, they can't
pick the one metric.
And so my advice is always
pick one metric, uh, of that
menu of like 10 metrics.
All of them look yummy, but
you gotta pick that one entre
or that one dessert, and
that's gonna be where you're
gonna build your plan around.
That's gonna become
your, if you will.
Uh, and that'll help you
basically understand.
where to start and
stop and how to better
explain what you're doing
to your stakeholders.
So picking one
metric is everything.
Yeah.
it's a bit more
manageable too,
right.
less work for sure.
Or you can go a little deeper
and then you can expand.
But, but Yeah.
I'm, I'm big on like
picking that one metric.
that's the best way
to clarify what we're
doing to everybody else.
Yeah.
And you've clearly
throughout your career have
had multiple examples of
excellent product marketing.
I proving value for pmms.
but for today's conversation,
I wanna focus on one
particular example and.
Really, I think where it
all started, so specifically
around influencing revenue.
So for the first segment
of our show, I want to
start with a case study
on how you approached this
when you, became the VP of
product marketing at Gong.
And then I wanna take that
experience and fast forward
into your career now at
Cordial and see how maybe
your team at Cordial is using.
The same playbook, how
it's evolved over time.
So I guess take me back to
when it all started, like
what was going on at Gong when
you set out to create that
measurable impact and how,
how you decided you wanted
to measure the narrative, um,
that was influencing sales.
Yeah.
so it was back in 2021.
Uh, so it's been a while
now, but I, I always like
talking about that example.
'cause Gong was a big brand,
uh, still is, but was really
a, a, a, an upcoming and
bigger brand back, back then.
And I think some of
that work kinda helped.
Shape what the
brand had become.
Um, so back then, end of, or
like mid 2021, if I recall,
we were, uh, kinda like
combining a, uh, rebrand
with a new narrative.
and the, the visual brand
is still what it is today,
back, but by the way, so
the new narrative was, uh,
I think it was, it was a
little bigger and bolder,
uh, than what we had before.
A little more enterprise
ready as well.
It was differentiated.
But then of course the
question is always from
sales is cool, PMM, how is
this actually helping me win
deals and will win, win them
faster and win bigger deals?
Right?
And so at the time there
was no real critical way of
proving that yes, we would
have content management
systems, um, and whatnot
to like track adoption of
your sales deck, but those
aren't just vanity metrics.
Like they don't
really prove any.
Correlation with revenue.
And so the task I had at hand
with my team, and my pmms
was to basically build a bit
of a simple, get repeatable
method using gong itself.
So gong gone gong, and
of course all the revenue
data stored in CRM to
basically determine
whether reps using the new
narrative were actually
closing more deals faster.
Right.
And so the action
that we took then was.
We kinda created that
playbook, if you will.
we, started, building what.
Gong was calling at the
time, I think it still is
called that, uh, that, uh,
trackers, uh, some of them
are a little smart than,
uh, smarter than others.
Uh, a little bit of AI
there, but like basically
you encapsulate the essence
of your POV and your
positioning into, a set of
keywords and expressions.
Then we would set up these
in gong and basically we
would be able to track You
know how the reps are using
these and then kinda split
the, the whole Salesforce.
Into two groups, those heavily
using the new narrative
and those who worked.
And then what you do is
basically you correlate,
uh, you know, adoption of
that new messaging with
downstream sales metrics.
and that's what we did.
And, and I think we could
establish a clear correlation.
reps consistently in new,
using the new messaging,
were able to close more
deals or to move through the,
the, the set the stages of
the cycle a little faster.
And that's, that's everything
you need as a PMM, right?
It's, it's less how many
assets and how beautiful
they are you've produced.
And it's more like, Hey,
there's tangible proof now.
That when you're using the
new messaging, you basically
end up closing more deals.
Who doesn't want that?
So,
Absolutely.
Okay, so there's two things
that I really love about this.
The first is that it's like
a super repeatable system
that you and your team built.
The second, and I, I think
I mentioned this before
ahead of this recording, is
we were preparing for this.
This podcast episode is that
I just, I feel so silly that
as a PMM who has used Gong and
and other sales recording, um,
platforms I never thought of.
I. Taking the sales team and
putting them into two groups,
one group with the messaging,
the new messaging, or whatever
narrative we're using, and
one without, and seeing which
one is performing better.
and it's just, it's a classic
experiment that I just, I
wish I would've thought of.
It's so, um, it's a really
strong way to, to really
prove that it's actually
working versus, as you pointed
out earlier, just leaning
into like vanity metrics.
So I, I love that.
That was really, clever.
Yeah,
exactly.
And I'll say you don't
need, like, it doesn't
have to be gong.
You can do that with Claire.
You can do that with
probably like the new,
the fathoms and the uh,
There are so many out there.
like, there's like a thousand
tools right now, so you kind
of pick the one you want
and then you track adoption
and impact of your POV over
those one of these apps.
Yeah, and I personally have
experienced in my career,
and I've heard other product
marketing leaders as well say
that the more you experiment
and, and run experiments
like this, the better that
you get in your own, in
your job, you become a more
high performing marketer.
So, uh, just little pro
tip for anyone listening.
Run more experiments.
Exactly.
Yep.
now let's take your case study
in this story and let's say.
That I, wanted to try to
replicate it in my role today.
where would I get started
as a PMM, you know,
inspired by this case study?
What would be step one?
Yeah.
I think step one is, uh,
pick the metric you want
to own or you want to
influence a little bit back
to what we just said, right.
Uh, the playbook you're gonna
build using the gong track
or the whatever, trackers and
all of that, you need to know
what success would look like.
And so is it, stage one
conversion to stage two,
or is it a SP average
setting price or is it.
Uh, actual close one revenue,
uh, competitive win rates,
like, I don't know, but
I would assume that you
really need to like know
the one metric you want
to influence with your
approach and your playbook.
So that's the step one.
Yeah, of course.
And, and I would imagine that
whatever metric you pick, it's
gonna be different for every
business depending on what
your business priorities are.
And, and then likewise
what, whatever tools
you have access to,
Exactly.
yeah.
There's a reason why you
are shipping this new
positioning at this point.
Right.
And it's, and, and so
it's gonna like back to
first principles in a way.
Like, why did we even do
this in the first place?
Maybe we're setting a lot
of deals, but the, the,
uh, you know, the, the
deal amount, I mean, the
deal size isn't big enough.
Well, that if That's the
reason why that new POV was
shipped, then use that as, you
know, the criteria for you.
I love that.
Yeah.
Yep, that's helpful.
Okay, so, then at, what's
step two, after I get
the, the metric down?
Yeah.
Step two is kinda like all the
pre measurement groundwork.
Um, you actually need to
develop your message, right?
and so, uh, as we know,
there's plenty of frameworks
to talk about this.
This is
I feel like you could
do another episode about
just narrative building
Uh, just that, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, for sure.
But like, once you, you know,
once you have that, you have
your pitch, you have your
POV, you have your narrative,
you have the key phrases
you would expect to show
up in, in these real calls.
and um, and so typically
you would, you know, certify
your go to market team on it.
And, and now you have your
trackers set up in gong,
so you're kinda like ready
for the next step, which is
starting to measure stuff.
I love that.
Okay, so I've got my metrics
set up, and then I do
other pre-work where I have
the narrative built out.
then what's step three
Yeah, I would say step three
is a little bit what I just,
uh, mentioned, like the,
I would say the rollout of
the positioning or of the,
of the messaging, right.
The new deck, the new
demo, the new whatever.
Um, we all know that
training one-off
trainings are pretty much.
Useless.
So it's all about repeating
it, reinforcing it, getting
people certified on it.
As I said, you
can make it fun.
You can have prices
and incentives and uh,
gamify it, and you have a
leaderboard and you see who's.
Uh, you know, doing a
good job at taking the
certification and whatnot.
So, everybody in tech and
in sales in particular, uh,
is competitive in nature.
So I think you play off that
to make sure people really are
trained and like the new
pitch is ingrained in
how they think and speak.
yeah.
Yet, another topic that we
could do an entire episode
on is sales enablement
and sales training.
Yeah.
So many things to talk about.
Yes.
Okay.
So, um, we picked the
metric, we've built the
messaging, we enabled sales.
What happens next?
Well, you gotta start
measuring, right?
So sales now is like
actually taking active calls
with your clients, your
customers, your prospects.
So, you know,
depending on your.
I guess transactional volume
of calls, then you need to
wait until you have a critical
mass of calls to be able to,
uh, do a more robust analysis.
But typically takes, you
know, a few days, few weeks
depending on your go to
market and your ICPI guess.
Yeah.
And whatever metric I would,
I would imagine whatever
metric you choose too,
That's right?
Yeah.
If you choose more,
that's a good point.
If you choose more like
downstream metrics, like
win rates against competitor
A, then you actually gotta
wait until a few cycles
are complete, lost or won
before you can actually
measure that stuff for sure.
but yeah, you measure, uh,
you, you, you have your
trackers is, uh, as I, as
I said, in any of these,
uh, of, of these apps.
Um, and uh, and as I said,
you like organically.
you can see who's heavily
adopting the new POV and
who's not, and then you kind
of like define the median
and that's what creates that
Almost like A/B testing of,
of reps, behavior adopters.
And the one who aren't really
using the new POV could be
more than two, by the way,
if you wanna be fancy, I'm
not, but like, if you want
to do like four or five,
whatever, but I would,
start small and simple.
Whatever makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely.
I do wanna call out because
I think I don't know if I
mentioned in it as I was
kind of summarizing the
steps in the pre, I guess
like pre-training or pre-ex
experiment, the part of your
step two to actually create
the trackers and whatever
tool you're using to just make
your life way less manual.
Like there's probably even
AI built into some of that.
So,
Yeah, definitely a
piece that you wouldn't
wanna miss in some of
that operational setup.
Okay.
So now that I have everything
set up and I've now run my
experiment, I'm assuming
all these tools gong,
cl, whatever, probably
also have some kind of
like exporting report
analysis that they can run.
what happens once you
get the analysis back and
or complete the analysis
on the experiment?
Yeah.
I would say that,
that's a good point.
Uh, the, the level of,
analytical views that you
get pretty much highly
depends on the app.
Like certain apps are just
better at providing reporting
and dashboards of, you know,
out of the box, if you will.
I remember back then
at gone 2021, the
reporting wasn't as, um.
How should I say,
comprehensive.
And so we actually ended up
exporting a lot of that data
and then building rev ops
would own that, building some,
some charts in basically in
Excel to kind of like compare
the A, the the group A and
B. But I would say pick your
reporting tool, uh, of choice.
It could be inside
the conversation
intelligence app itself,
or it could be outside.
And then while you show
the wins, you highlight.
The reps who adopted
the message and who are
crushing it on that one
metric that you picked.
Step one, and then you
show the other ones.
And you know, um, that's how
you can close the loop by
showing how the message ties
back to the metric you, you
initially picked and set.
So in our example, if you
said, you know, I need to
close bigger deals, but
I'm, I'm, I'm like, my
close rates are great, I
just need bigger deals,
then that's the one metric.
And then hopefully group
A behavior adopters, their
average setting price on
average is higher than the
one of group P of group B.
And that's, that's
enough proof, right.
I would guess that your,
stakeholders would be
really excited to see
that kind of result.
also the team that that's in
the camp using old message
with the lower steel sizes,
probably a little bummed that
they didn't get the bigger
They know now they
know what to do.
They need to, like, they know
that they need to embrace the
new message and, you know,
you know, hop on that train.
So it's, it becomes, it,
it lifts everybody's, uh,
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm sure this probably
changes a little bit based
on what metric you're using.
but I guess if we're
talking about impacting
revenue, it's, it will
absolutely include sales or
some kind of sales leader.
But can you like, just quickly
give some examples of good
stakeholders to use as you're
doing, uh, feedback loop.
Yeah, as you said, I think
it's, it is highly dependent
on the metric you picked.
If it's, uh, relevant to
more like net new logos
and net new business, then
sales is gonna be there.
Uh, marketing is
gonna be there.
Uh, if you are a PNG
company and you want to
impact how your, I mean
you want to measure how
your narrative is impacting
product adoption or product
utilization, then you're
gonna have PMs and even ENG
engine product in the room.
So it kind of depends.
If your metric is NDR and
NPS or churn rather, uh,
then CS would be in the room.
So I would assume like pretty
much all of go to market,
including, you know, products
would kind of be interested
at least in that project.
totally.
Yeah.
Uh, any product manager
is gonna care about
revenue and any good
product manager anyway
is gonna care about
The good ones, Care.
Yeah.
They wanna know all of that.
okay, cool.
I think we actually got a
little bit of a head, but.
Yeah, assuming there is a
step six and that is the,
the feedback loop that we
kind of touched on already,
but um, quickly walk us
through what that looks like.
Yeah.
Uh, listen, no message
is perfect ever, and it
always changes with time.
And what's top of mind for
your buyer today might not
be what's gonna be top of
mind for them in like three
days, or three months,
or three years, right?
So it keeps changing.
You always have to adapt.
Typically, you
don't change your.
Like value propositions
and your positioning
statements as often.
Uh, 'cause consistency is
and repetition are key,
but the actual messaging
of it, uh, and the way you
kind of like approach that
and talk about your value.
Can change over time.
So that's the feedback loop.
Uh, that's where typically
the top reps would tell you,
I really like this piece.
I think this piece
is a little weak.
Or the, you know, the
group B would like tell
you what's happening with,
uh, with their experience.
And that's how you, you
know, refine your assets.
Your POV, your messaging.
You made these updates.
And, you know, you keep
shipping and they keep using
what you're shipping, so it's
kind of like a, a flywheel,
if you will, or a new cycle
that starts all over again.
Yeah, and it helps build,
build trust with your
stakeholders when they see
their feedback, you know,
obviously, uh, reflected
in the messaging too,
a hundred percent.
yeah.
Yeah.
The messaging is never an
irate tower type of thing.
It's always like you're
in the trenches working,
baking the cake, as
Yeah.
with with reps for sure.
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
So let's fast forward
now to, what life
looks like at Cordial.
Like where do you see this
playbook show up and, and
how has it evolved since,
it's inception back in 2021?
Yeah, I.
would say it's been refined
over time like this.
What I just explained
was very much like the
V one, if you will.
And we're talking four
years ago or Yeah.
even more than that, four
and a half years ago.
Right.
Uh, like one thing
that I remember.
Uh, we didn't, we were
not really thinking
about, was naturally
the top performing reps.
Are gonna be adopting
the new message if
that's a good message.
And so there's a bias there.
and you cannot attribute,
uh, them winning
just to the message.
It's also because of
all the other stuff and
their sales man shape
and whatnot, if you will.
so what we did then, uh, the,
the next company is kinda
like introduce a bit of a
time, the time dimension
if you will, and know if
with the new messaging.
kind of do the before
and after, like is
there a delta over time
between, before and after?
For the new rep, I mean
for the top reps as well as
for the, the middle and the
bottom reps, if you will.
And then if you see that,
that spike or if you see
that that delta, then it's
a better sign of, you know,
your messaging being working.
So that's just one example
of like a tweak that we added
and we've adopted over time.
and there's way more.
Um, we used to like do exactly
what I said, but we would do
that on all the gong calls.
And yet you don't pitch your
products all the time, so
you need to like limit your
calls to a certain subset.
you need to include email
as well, so there's like.
A lot of different tactics
and details that I'm not
gonna bore you with, but I
would say that playbook has
been refined and robust.
Robust defined, I dunno
if that's an English word,
yeah,
for sure.
yeah.
And everyone should take
a playbook and iterate on
it, like make it your own.
Right?
This is just kind of the
bare bones, but you know
what, what you do with it is
really what you get out of it.
so.
I love how scientific this is.
So if I just very quickly
recap the steps here, step one
is try to figure out what that
metric is that you wanna use.
Step two, I think was
to actually build your
narrative and to do some
of that pre-work, right?
The, like the logistics,
setting up your trackers,
and then,
so that I can keep track.
yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And then step three was
to enable the sales team.
Step four was to actually
run the experiment
and do the analysis.
Step five is to do the
share outs, and then step
six, I'm gonna call step
six, the feedback where we
like, you get, you
do the iterating on
the, on the messaging.
Yay.
Okay.
it's actually
really simple to do.
It's just, it's so clever
and scientific and it
really comes, it really
showcases the, like a
true measurable impact of.
Narratives and messaging.
So one last question for
you before we move on to the
next segment of the show.
any last advice you have for
a PMM who's gonna take this
playbook and run with it?
I.
think you start simple.
that's, uh, that's for sure.
Uh, you, as I said, you
pick that one metric.
only do two groups.
You don't do the, the
time thing, the delta over
time, like, it's just,
it's just too complex.
I would say all of that
stuff we just talked
about, it's a sales metric
or it's a more like a
downstream revenue metric.
We picked maybe.
You are crushing things
on revenue, but you need
to go and explore a new,
you know, segment of
the market or whatever.
And what keeps your CEO
up at night is awareness
in the enterprise segment.
I'm making that up.
You're crushing your
mid market down market
revenue numbers, but you
have nothing up market
and you're gonna start
at the top of the funnel.
Then none of that stuff
that I talked about is
really gonna apply, right?
Like it's, uh, it's, uh, it
still is more in the funnel.
So my, my one advice would be,
you know, beyond everything
we just discussed, Eddie,
it's like, know what's
top of mind for your CEO.
What keeps him or her
or them up at night?
And then you insert
yourself where it matters.
That's how you build
that trust and that's
how you show impact.
Yeah.
Yep, And so often I've
seen really successful
pmms be really involved
in business outcomes and.
Being close with executives
and senior leaders around,
okay, well what are our shared
as a company, our shared, you
know, north star metric that
we're gonna achieve together.
So, makes a lot of sense.
Alright, now it's time for the
next and final segment of our
show, the messaging critique.
This is so
fun.
excited.
Yeah.
Um, yes.
For anyone who is new or
hasn't, heard the segment
before, this is where
we as product marketing
experts get to analyze
real world messaging.
And the fun part is,
Julian, as my guest,
you get to choose the.
Company that we look at.
and before we get started,
there's just three main
rules, or, or I guess,
uh, guidelines for this.
We're gonna talk about what's
working really well with the
messaging, what's standing
out in a positive way.
We're gonna talk about
something that we wish the
PMM would've done differently,
and then we're gonna iterate
a little bit and maybe give
some creative ideas to the
PMM who's owning that product.
alright.
So Julian, tell us reveal,
what are we looking at today?
Yeah, I picked, uh, when
you and I were prepping for
this, I you told me the, the
main thing was, uh, picking
companies that you would
be, you know, using Right.
Apps you would be
using, or like a market
you're really familiar with.
Otherwise, it's just like,
I'm not gonna critique
messaging for like whatever
I could totally, yeah.
I couldn't do like
Uh,
It wouldn't be fair.
there you go.
Exactly.
You said it.
I I thought about it.
Yeah.
So, right now we are working
like revamping a little bit
at Cord, uh, revamping our,
a little bit of our stack.
Uh, and part of that is
the intent platform or the
signals platform, if you will.
As well as the data piece,
the data enrichment that is,
so I picked two companies.
We're looking at,
uh, very different
in style and in size.
Uh, one of them is called
User Gems and the other
one is called ZoomInfo.
I'm sure you've heard of.
at least one of the two.
I've definitely heard of.
Yeah, I've definitely
heard of ZoomInfo.
I actually before, you
shared with me, I had
never heard of User Gems.
I'm really excited to
learn a little bit more.
so just for anyone who
wants to follow along, I'm
going to use user gems.com.
That's U-S-E-R-G-E-M s.com.
So, I guess Julian get
us started with like,
what do they do and just
tell us a little bit
about their product.
Yeah.
they have two products mainly.
Um, the one that, that I
think we can spend a little
bit of time on, well, we
can, we can spend time on
like the whole pitch, but
one of them is, uh, an ai,
an AI agent, if you will,
that basically builds, lists.
Captures signals, uh,
scores your accounts and
your contacts, and then
write some emails for, you
know, automated outreach.
Um, so they, in a
nutshell, they automate
your inbound motion.
It sounds a little
too good to be true,
but uh,
I know.
Yeah.
but, um, but I haven't
been, I've, I haven't
investigated that space in
a while, so I'm sure there's
been advancements there.
So I'm guessing then their
target audience would be like
the marketing org, right?
Correct.
Yeah.
I would say growth marketers
is like typically the user,
uh, persona for them for sure.
Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense.
okay.
So what are you loving
about their messaging?
And I guess again, with
the caveat of like, this
is how they're presenting
themselves on their
website, because that's
what we have to go off of.
that's right.
Yeah, that's a good, that's
such a good call out.
Sometimes the messaging
on the website for good
or bad reasons isn't
exactly the same you have
in the sales deck, so, uh,
we can only speak about
public, uh, facing stuff.
Uh, Yeah.
I like, I like their
brand in general.
Um, and by the way, they're,
CMO is friend of mine,
so like, and I'll let you
know, let her know that
this is, this is coming
up and I'm sure she'll
find that very,
uh, very, very fun.
Uh, but they have a
bit of a mascot, it's
called Gem E, so it.
goes with like user, and
it's like, it's literally
like a little robot.
It's
very cute.
big, cute little robot
That's right.
Yeah.
It's a cute little robot.
And so they have, uh, GE
doing, uh, both the AI
outreach and the A BM thing.
Uh, so it's, it's cute.
I like, I like
that of, of course.
but then I think
in terms of like.
Beyond the, the visuals and
the, the brand experience.
I think the message itself, at
least on the homepage, I don't
love, uh, it's right now.
it's, uh, the go to
market command center and
AI agents that you can
trust the go to market.
Repeat that again, three
times without, you
know, like, Yeah.
Stepping over, over word,
like the go to market command
center with an AI agents
that you, that you can trust.
So I don't know.
what that means.
I really don't.
And like every time I see
command center, I see os I see
only in one platform and my
eyes are just rolling over.
It's
God.
I know.
I spent, I spent too
many years in telecom
and I can't tell you how
many, how many telecom
companies I know, right?
I can't tell you how many
telecom companies use
command center as like,
and so yeah, I'm like,
it's.
Also sounds like military
and so, I don't know.
It does.
It's I think you hit, you're
hitting on something that
actually comes up a lot in
this segment and that's,
and it's really hard.
So that's the other thing I
think it's worth calling out.
Messaging is so hard.
we pmms make it look easy,
but it's really hard.
A lot of testing, a lot
of work goes into it.
but this, my comment that I'm
about to make comes up a lot
in this segment and that's, to
write human sounding messaging
and command center doesn't
really, to me sound super
human, just 'cause that's
Yeah, I, I
agree.
But again, I'm the data
point of one French guy,
so I might not even be
like in their like, 'cause
I'm CMO and I'm not, I'm
not a growth marketer, per
se.
So Maybe they've tested
it and maybe it works
well for them.
So I'm, I'm not
judging, I'm just giving
That makes,
POV, that's
yep, that makes
a lot of sense.
Okay.
So, what are you, what are you
loving about their messaging?
Um, I remember it's not on
the website, but I remember a,
um, I think it was a thought
leadership Like, slash data
report that they had and that
I actually read, um, where
they were talking about the AI
adoption mi uh, mirage, uh, I.
don't even know how you say
this thing in
yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah,
word by the.
Mirage.
So AI adoption mirage,
and, uh, I like that.
I thought he was, I
thought he was smart.
Um, it was a good problem
statement and right now
there's no problem statement
on the website, right?
And so I kinda wish it
was a little more, I'd
say prominent in their
messaging on the website.
Um, it had legs and, uh,
I just wish, you know, it
was, it was there and it's
not just command center
with AI you can trust blah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it sounds like they, and
maybe this is to, who knows
who's controlling the website.
Sometimes pmms
don't get any say at
all in what goes
on the website,
Yeah.
Yeah.
but, um, they clearly do have
some selling the problem.
Because they, they did it
in that, you know, thought
leadership piece that you saw.
Um, so I guess we're kind
of getting into it a little
bit already, but, um, if
you're looking at how, like
something they could have
considered differently or
how they can, like, you know,
maybe some creative ideas to,
to elevate their messaging.
Like what are some thoughts
and ideas you have?
I mean, that's gonna be
no surprise to anybody.
Uh, I think, uh, they need
to sell the problem before
they can sell the solution.
Um, and so whether it's
AI adoption mirror, uh,
mirage or something else,
like I want to hear.
Uh, what's, what's the
problem I'm solving for?
I want to know
why you, why now?
What's driving the urgency?
How much money I'm leaving on
the table today by not doing
things, things the Right.
way, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So really sell me the
problem before you
sell me the solution.
That's the big piece.
And then, um, I would
reconsider command center
'cause that doesn't
work for me, but might
not be their ICP again.
Right.
Totally.
I really like that you called
out the thought leadership
piece because even as you're
speaking, I listen, like I've
only spent as much time on,
you know, looking at user gems
as, you know, what the last
like four or five minutes that
we've been talking about them.
yeah,
Um, but it already is.
Immediately resonating with
me and it's intriguing and
makes me want to learn more.
yeah,
as a, just as a marketer?
Just as a marketer, right?
Like
All you need is a little,
a little teaser, a
little word you haven't
seen before, right?
Like mirage, I don't know.
I haven't seen that
word a whole lot in
tech, and so I'm like,
oh, that's intriguing.
I'm gonna
It is.
It is.
It is.
Yeah.
So I think maybe they have
something there that's
working really well.
It's just maybe not
reflection on the website yet,
Exactly, and I'll, I'll
also say like, their app
kicks, but like it's great.
So we're criticizing,
we're like
nerding out you and I on
we're totally Yes,
a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
I should make that clear too.
This is not critiquing
tools itself, it's literally
just the messaging.
Okay.
So let's compare this
to a like much larger
company, zoom info.
I can't imagine anyone,
like not knowing anyone in
the B2B world anyway, not
knowing what ZoomInfo is,
but like maybe just give
a brief, brief summary
yeah, it's one of the only,
rev tech companies that
had, uh, A successful IPO.
Honestly, when you think
about it, um, no one else
has had that big of an IPO.
They've been around
for, I don't even know,
20 years or something.
They're massive
public companies.
I said.
Started as a contact
database and then expanding
the products to help.
Uh, this is in quotes, that's
what they see on the website
to help go to market teams,
find, qualify, and reach the
Right, companies and buyers.
Um, so it still is very
much a data play, but they
built a bunch of apps on
top of that strong data set.
right, right, right.
right.
Yeah.
So much larger company,
probably slightly different
approach, requiring a slightly
different target audience.
Um, so who would they
be targeting that would
be different than, or
maybe expand beyond
just the marketers?
Yeah.
that's the, I guess the
cha their challenge and
opportunity at the same
time, uh, everybody in the
good market, uh, or would
be talking to them, um.
Sales, marketing, rev ops, uh,
I believe there's a CS maybe
component to the platform.
I'm not even sure.
So it literally is, you know,
a big platform or like Uber
platform made of multiple
sub platforms for, you know,
anybody in good market.
Yeah.
Okay.
And just for anyone who's
following along, I think
the, we're looking at what,
whatever messaging they
have on their website.
Um, so it's just zoominfo.com.
if anyone wants to look along
with us, so talk through
their messaging a bit.
Like what is it
and what's working?
What's working well?
Yeah, Uh, it's gold.
So the, the header, I mean
the, the hero is, uh, on
their, on their homepage
is the go to market
intelligence platform.
The go to market
intelligence platform.
I think what's working well
is also what's not working.
Like always like these
big companies, right?
What's working well is
that it is so, vague.
It actually applies to
everyone and everybody, and
it's just a testament to the
confidence that they have.
It's like they don't
really need to say much.
It's like you were ZoomInfo
were the good market
intelligence platform.
Drop that mic.
Like, it's so simple.
Right?
And I think that
works in their case.
They don't not, they don't
have to be fancy, they don't
have to be all sophisticated.
They don't have to find,
uh, weird words like
mirage that a French
person cannot pronounce.
Like it can be very
like plain lingo.
Uh, and I think that's a
testament to their size
and their kinda like
self-confidence in a way so
that, that works.
Uh, but
totally agree.
I.
you agree, right?
Yeah, yeah.
But, but, but tell us more
about what doesn't work, and
I bet that'll resonate with
me given that I've worked
at big enterprises that have
Yeah, I think what doesn't
work is exactly what, Yeah.
it's kind of what
we just said.
it's like, it's too it's,
it doesn't say anything.
It is too vague, Right.
Like, the, the sub, at
least as of today is, uh,
ZoomInfo gives you high
quality AI powered B2B data
and sales intelligence.
It's not finished.
That helps your go to
market teams, find in-market
buyers, build pipeline
and close deals faster.
You know, it's like literally,
um, the ultimate test.
It's So much, it's
such a mouthful.
It's jargon after word
after jargon, word.
Also, you could replace
ZoomInfo by pretty
much any other player
in the same space.
It would work with user
gems, it would work with the
polo and clay and whatever,
you know, with clay.
So it's so, it's so generic.
It lacks specificity,
it lacks uniqueness.
It doesn't have a hook.
It doesn't have the villain
in the problem statement.
So yeah, it's the, that's
the other side of that coin.
It's.
You know, it works for
them, but only because
they're big and they don't
actually need fancy stuff.
Right, exactly.
They're kind of like riding
on the halo effect of their
established brand, and the
their size and this, they
have so many products too.
So what advice do you
have for the PMM there?
Um, how can they, I guess,
take it to the next level
or maybe elevate elevated
a little bit or, or what
experiments could they run to
to see how they can improve?
Yeah.
Well first I, I can relate,
Uh, can, I can sympathize,
but also it's probably
not 1:00 PM it's probably
like 25 pmms or something.
I'm actually friends with
the guy who used to run.
Friends with a guy
who used to run pm m
and brand at ZoomInfo.
ZoomInfo is not there anymore.
so I it's, it's just
hard 'cause you're an
established player, you're
a public company, you
cannot do crazy stuff.
Um, you have multiple
buyer personas,
Yes.
like it's
multiple stakeholders.
I think that's a big one too.
And they all want their
hand in the messaging.
It's
Exactly, so
so it just dilutes
the whole thing.
'cause you wanna
please everybody.
But at least what I would
hope I would, they would
consider would be just
less, hey, less jargon.
Like I actually did a
little like word cloud
of their homepage.
And I'm gonna read
the top 10 words I
found in that word
cloud.
Yes,
You ready, Eddie?
All right, let's do it.
Go to market.
Top one, data, AI pipeline,
sales intent platform,
connect, intelligence,
automate, those are the 10.
Is there anything that
doesn't sound cliche in there?
Absolutely not.
So just like add one little
thing or like, I don't
know, but it's just, it's,
They're all the classic
SaaS B2B tech buzzwords.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sadly.
Yeah.
Oh, sorry, ZoomInfo.
we,
we we know that
there's, I was gonna say
we, you're obviously, yeah.
yeah.
I think what something
that I would do some
experiments on if I were.
A PMM leader at ZoomInfo
would be to lean back
into maybe values of the
company and like the, like
big, big, big picture,
you know, mission that we
as a company are setting
out to solve and trying
to do some like narrative
building around that.
Maybe like run some focus
groups or something and,
and I think maybe that's
what where I would try to
do some experimenting on,
uh, but
but yeah, apparently
You know that,
need to though.
that, that's the thing.
you don't need to be
fancy if you're like
so well established.
Right.
So, um, yeah.
I think in, in, in some
ways it kind of also helps
us in PMM and in marketing,
like, remember that.
Messaging is one thing,
and it's one lever, but
it's not everything.
You can be successful
with sake messaging,
so it's
just, uh, yeah, it's a bit
of a humbling moment for
all of us, but messaging is,
for sure.
it's important, but it's not
all the things, you know,
Yes.
So we just looked at two
vendors in the same, or
at least like similar like
big picture of like market
category and one very, very
large company who's crushing
it and one small company
who's also crushing it.
So what's kind
of the takeaway?
I think for a pm m who's,
or pmms who are, I guess
like thinking about like
positioning and messaging in
like a big in, in a market.
you know, based on
what you saw today.
Across both of
At least I would say
that's kinda what we
just talked about, right?
Uh, avoid the, the jargon.
Um, define your villain,
uh, and your story arc, your
obstacles, your hero, your
outcomes, the end state, the
bliss, and all of that stuff.
Um, and, um, probably measure
back to the initial topic
you and I just discussed.
Just like iterate, measure
step six is like never
ending feedback loop.
Do some testing.
I'm sure a lot of
them are doing that.
Totally, I'm sure.
And, and we also didn't
look at like specific
product pages, which
I think pmms probably
have more control over.
So,
um, it could be that
those ones are also
like, way stronger than
actually their homepage,
which sometimes happens.
Um,
messaging is,
uh, the
notoriously hard.
It's
so hard.
ever.
so yeah.
Well shout out to User
Gems and ZoomInfo.
Pmms, we feel for you,
it's, it's tough out
there doing messaging,
but you guys have found a
recipe that works for you.
But let us know if
you like these ideas.
I'm curious if, um, if you
have been working on some
of this already and where we
might be able to learn more.
alright, so Julian, one
thing that I like to do.
On this podcast is, uh, make
some space for gratitude.
So with that, um, I wanna
bring us to my gratitude
moment and, uh, because
in product marketing,
none of us get here alone.
We're all learning from
each other and building
on each other's frameworks
and playbooks, like I'm
sure like hundreds of
listeners are gonna do with.
the playbook that
you shared today.
Uh, so before we wrap up,
I wanna say a genuine thank
you to you for taking so
much of your precious time
to help prepare for this
episode and obviously record
and share your expertise.
So thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.
Um, and I'd love to turn
it around to you who are
maybe some pmms who have
helped shaped your career
and really brought you
to where you are today.
Yeah, I guess I'm gonna pick,
uh, maybe two, three people.
Two of them are, uh, mentors.
I wouldn't be where I'm at,
where I am today without them.
But then when, when you do
gratitude, oftentimes you took
a look at like those mentors
and more senior people.
But actually wanna express
gratitude towards people
who have been on my team.
Um, and, uh, 'cause like, I,
I wouldn't be a leader today.
without them in a way.
Right?
So the first one
is, uh, Andy Savage.
Uh, he was my CMO at my
first company, my first,
uh, tech company that is,
um, back in the days 2000,
don't even remember, 2012,
13.
your ear early PM
Yeah, it was my, like, I had
no idea how to spell PMM.
I was a, I was an se back
then, I was coming from Paris
and I had no idea what was
going on and so he took me
under his wings and, uh,
yeah, he's a great dude.
Uh, although it's been a
while, we haven't talked.
So Andy Savage is one.
The other one is, uh,
Stephanie bmi, who really took
a bet on me when she hired me
at Salesforce back in 2015.
So it's been 10
years, uh, this year.
Um, then she moved up the
ranks and became, uh, one of
the most amazing CMOs I've
worked with at Salesforce.
so she's, uh, she's the best.
These are mentors.
And then, As I said,
people who were on my team,
like direct reports, I,
I've been blessed to be,
Destination companies.
And so attracting world class
pmms have been easier for me.
Uh, so I feel very privileged.
and some of these people
I've worked with multiple
times now, they would,
you know, follow me or
I would follow them.
so Ryan Bo is, is a,
has become a friend.
She was my first
PMM hire at Gong.
And then she joined
at, she joined my team
at Clary Victoria.
Anova was my, also my
first PMMI hired at
Gong same day as Ryan.
She's now with open ai.
She needs
PMM there.
Uh, so yeah, we have, uh, we
have those, uh, you know, I'm,
I'm grateful for these people
who helped me be a better
manager, a better, uh, CMO
and, uh, who stayed friends
with me this whole time.
Grateful for that.
I love that.
You are so lucky.
You've had some incredible
mentors and teams and it
says something when you
work with someone who.
Wants to follow you to
your next company and
vice versa, so you're so
lucky to have had that.
Okay, my last question
for you, where else can
we access your expertise?
Is it best to just
reach out on LinkedIn?
yeah.
reach out on link,
reach out on LinkedIn?
Uh, I, I am pretty
active there.
I post, uh, about once a day.
Sometimes it's funny,
quirky, silly little dad
jokes, and sometimes it's
a little more profound and
framework and I hope you
can find joy in learnings
in some of that stuff.
Awesome.
Thank you so much Julian,
and thank you PMM listeners
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take with you on the next
step in your own journey.