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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:31:11
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore and welcome to Story Behind the Stone. Today we're joined by Ultan Moran of Dublin Cemeteries Trust. Home of Glasnevin Cemetery, Ireland's national cemetery in Dublin. And today's episode we explore the deep connections between Ireland and North America through stories of Civil War soldiers, abolitionists and veterans of the World Wars. These lives, remembered in stone at Glasnevin, continue to shape history today.
00:00:31:13 - 00:00:42:20
Speaker 1
Ultan, thanks for the work you're doing to preserve these powerful stories and to our listeners. Thanks for tuning in.
00:00:42:22 - 00:00:56:16
Speaker 1
We heard all about Glasnevin and in the last episode we got it. We got a 30,000ft view today. Really excited to dig into a couple more stories with you. Selfishly, we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, links to North American Glasnevin.
00:00:56:16 - 00:01:21:17
Speaker 2
Well, you know, Glasnevin is of course, famous in this country for having, the burials of so many people who shaped Irish history. And, but I think it's also important to remember this with 1.5 million people, we have, you know, the amount of burials here of people who shaped the course of world history as well, or at least were witnesses to very important events in history, not only here in Ireland or here in Europe, but across the Atlantic as well.
00:01:21:18 - 00:01:26:02
Speaker 1
We were walking with you in the cemetery. Where would we find one of these individuals?
00:01:26:02 - 00:01:57:22
Speaker 2
Conveniently right at the front entrance of the cemetery. And it's a story that is quite linked to. And the research I would have done quite a bit in college. You know, I mentioned in the previous podcast that I, studied American history primarily and focused on the Roosevelt family. And it was about six years into my job here in Glasnevin Cemetery when I discovered that there was a man buried right at the front of the cemetery alongside our very impressive round tower named Doctor Thomas Amish, who had a very interesting life.
00:01:57:22 - 00:02:22:05
Speaker 2
He was from, Virginia Bush, made a career for himself in New York City. He set up a women's hospital in New York, where he delivered an estimated around 1100 babies. And one of those babies was the future U.S. president Theodore Roosevelt. And again, given that I studied the Roosevelts, you would think that I would catch on on this very important connection a bit more quickly than I did six years on.
00:02:22:05 - 00:02:47:06
Speaker 2
So he was one of the most renowned doctors of the 19th century in New York. He had Irish connections. He was the grandnephew of, a guy by the name of Robert Emmet, who was one of Ireland's most well known, rebel leaders. His family ultimately settled in the United States, like so many other Irish families did, and became quite influential.
00:02:47:08 - 00:03:21:19
Speaker 2
As I say, Doctor Thomas out of San Jose became a doctor, very well respected doctor. His headstone does have a bit of a exaggeration on it goes into a lot of detail, which is always nice. On my headstone, it says that he was the founder of plastic surgery, which might be a slight exaggeration, but, it's based on his service during the Civil War in the United States when he was with the Union Army and as a medic and did quite a lot to push, you know, soldiers back together who had been injured grievously in the conflict as serving on the frontlines.
00:03:21:21 - 00:03:43:11
Speaker 2
And, he, you know, would have pioneered quite a lot of medical techniques, some of them probably a bit grisly. But there you are to it, those soldiers who were injured and so on. A headstone for Mark sheets called the founder of plastic surgery, which, as I said, maybe slightly traumatic, but still, very interesting guy. You know, as I say, he loved his Irish heritage.
00:03:43:11 - 00:04:08:02
Speaker 2
He never really visited Ireland at all, but he would have been involved in Irish American circles in New York City. And when he died in 1919, his body was brought over the Atlantic, laid to rest here right at the front entrance of the cemetery. And as you can probably imagine, he was quite wealthy. And his headstone, which is on top of his crypt, it's the tallest Celtic cross in the cemetery, seven meters tall.
00:04:08:02 - 00:04:16:17
Speaker 2
So quite an impressive monument for Thomas other families. So, yeah. So he's a 1 to 1 particular connection. And as I say, right at the front entrance here.
00:04:16:21 - 00:04:25:08
Speaker 1
If I'm coming in, I'm, I'm visiting Glasnevin and I'm walking through, I've stopped at this grave. What's the next grave that I'm going to be stopping at?
00:04:25:08 - 00:04:50:18
Speaker 2
Whenever we have visitors from the United States in particular, we would always, go into quite a lot of detail about the connection between these cemeteries founder Daniel O'Connell and, the great abolitionist in the United States, Frederick Douglass O'Connell. He was a human rights activist, a humanitarian. He fundamentally believed in equality for all people and equality in life and then equality and death as well, of course.
00:04:50:20 - 00:05:14:11
Speaker 2
But he didn't stop with advocating for the rights of Irish people. He advocated for the Aborigines in Australia, for example. He advocated for the independence of Poland. So he was a man very well known across the world, probably the most famous Irishman of the first half of the 19th century. And he was already quite a well-known figure in the United States because he took a very strong stand against slavery.
00:05:14:13 - 00:05:36:17
Speaker 2
Now he often wanted to go to the United States, but he never did. He said he would never sell these bush by setting foot on the land where slavery remained an institution. And so he became a hugely admired figure in the abolitionist movement. When Frederick Douglass was 27, he came to Ireland. He attended one of Daniel O'Connell's speeches here in Dublin.
00:05:36:19 - 00:06:00:14
Speaker 2
And in that speech, O'Connell was talking about the abolition of slavery. O'Connell was already near the end of his life at that point. Douglass was 27, and the year that he visited was 18, 45, which was the first year, the first year of the Great Irish Famine, which in Ireland just called on more to more the Great Hunger.
00:06:00:16 - 00:06:21:09
Speaker 2
Douglass stayed in the country for four months. It's reckoned and he wrote about the appalling situation in Ireland at the time. But he also mentioned how, you know, he was a free man at that point. But by the law of his own country, he was treated as a runaway slave. And he remarked on the fact that people treated him as an equal.
00:06:21:09 - 00:06:44:00
Speaker 2
But he actually borrowed one of Daniel O'Connell's phrases that he would that O'Connell often would have used, which was agitate, agitate, agitate. And in his own campaigns. And so O'Connell's campaign of, you know, always use in peaceful protest the power of persuasion, the power of your voice. That would have inspired, you know, the young Frederick Douglass in his own campaigns.
00:06:44:02 - 00:06:56:16
Speaker 2
And so that's the story I particularly like telling that, you know, the fact that O'Connell being the founder of the cemetery and, you know, a very important figure in Irish history, also inspired similar men overseas when.
00:06:56:16 - 00:07:18:04
Speaker 1
We see someone that inspires us, it inspires us because it resonates. We have that within us. And you can see these two men vastly different ages, but it's almost passing that torch on. You have, a swath of kids on the cemetery right now, which is so cool that your cemetery is, you know, this destination for kids to come.
00:07:18:04 - 00:07:34:10
Speaker 1
And as part of the curriculum, they come in and they're learning. I'm sure a big part of that is kind of the Irish history and stuff. Is there any any others, like graves, that kind of relate to the topic we're on today, that these kids, you would point these kids to?
00:07:34:11 - 00:08:04:11
Speaker 2
One of, the most important figures in Irish history was a man by the name of fame and devil, who was the, in many ways dominant political figure of, 20th century Irish politics. Though he was actually born in Manhattan, in New York. He moved you from an Irish as a, say, a mother was Irish and he was brought up here, but he, you know, the connections between Ireland and the United States in particular were always very strong.
00:08:04:13 - 00:08:26:18
Speaker 2
He, for example, during our War of Independence, traveled to the United States to raise support among those and, you know, cities with a very high Irish American population, such as New York and Boston in particular. And at this point, he was essentially in the eyes of the, you know, law, the government at the time, a criminal in the United Kingdom.
00:08:26:18 - 00:08:51:20
Speaker 2
And, he was treated like a president, you know, when he was over there, because that is what he was, according to our, you know, election of 1918 and these independence candidates advocating for Irish independence, won a mandate. And essentially there were campaigning for completion dependance from Britain. So he raised several million dollars in the United States.
00:08:51:22 - 00:09:19:11
Speaker 2
He a funny story of the attended his, a meeting with a Native American group who were, you know, telling him and his career and all of that, and they meant they were being a great advocate of the Irish language, got up and delivered a speech entirely in the Irish language. And essentially nobody there could understand what he was saying because he decided not to do it in English as a as a point, I suppose.
00:09:19:13 - 00:09:35:07
Speaker 2
So we would always bring that in you know, these different, you know, connections between that very important era in Irish history and then, you know, the people over in the United States who tried as much as they could to, you know, raise support.
00:09:35:09 - 00:09:44:04
Speaker 1
In more recent history, you're in New York City. Did you visit any folks that are buried there that have an Irish, Irish ancestry or link to Ireland at all?
00:09:44:04 - 00:10:07:06
Speaker 2
There's many different Irish connections. And Green-Wood Cemetery out in Brooklyn, the wife of the rebel leader Wolfe Tone, is buried there. You know, I I'm huge Irish American population in New York, so plenty of them buried in that one cemetery. A lot of cancer crosses over there, too. Very Irish symbol. So, it was almost like being back.
00:10:07:08 - 00:10:13:20
Speaker 2
It worked really, in many ways. Except I could see the Manhattan skyline in the distance, which was a bit of a change. But there you.
00:10:13:20 - 00:10:31:05
Speaker 1
Are. We're going to have to get you out, Beechwood in Canada, because that's one of the things you'll, you'll notice quite often is, the amount of Celtic crosses that sit, in our national cemetery as well. So if you're ever in the area, we'll make sure to, to hook you up with our contact.
00:10:31:09 - 00:10:43:22
Speaker 2
You know, that is on my bucket list. My cemetery bucket list, which I say, you know, it's kind of an odd thing to have a cemetery bucket list, but I think, in this, area, a lot of people would. So there you are.
00:10:44:00 - 00:10:46:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I have a cemetery bucket list as well.
00:10:46:10 - 00:10:48:07
Speaker 2
And it's good to know I'm not alone.
00:10:48:09 - 00:11:24:10
Speaker 1
Right on there. Near the top of that list for. For sure. Good. This is this is the interesting thing is what you see. And and this is why I'm loving talking to you. Because I learn more and more all the time, is just how these very influential Irish figures play a role through throughout the world. You know, whether it's it's at home in Ireland or you can see in North America, in Canada, one of the things that that, you know, we tend to look at is how some of the veterans and people who served in some of the wars have had an influence.
00:11:24:11 - 00:11:31:08
Speaker 1
Is there any individuals that perhaps are buried that, were involved in any any conflicts?
00:11:31:08 - 00:12:01:03
Speaker 2
Yes. It has a very rich military history here in Glasnevin. And one particular example I give, is a man who served during the American Civil War by the name of, William Dylan Walker, who was from Dublin, from a place called Golden Bridge, not far from the original cemetery that O'Connell set up, actually. But, as a young man, he served with, papal forces, but then went over to the United States, where he enlisted in the Union Army.
00:12:01:05 - 00:12:27:17
Speaker 2
He fought during the battle of the wilderness, which was one of the great battles of the Civil War under the command of Ulysses S Grant. It's reckoned that there's around, 200,000 Irish born men who served during the American Civil War, primarily on the Union side. The vast majority of whom. And then it's reckoned around 20,000 on the, Confederate side during the conflict, too.
00:12:27:19 - 00:12:53:23
Speaker 2
But William Dylan Walker, he died, as I said, in the battle of the wilderness. His headstone was erected here in Dublin. And for a while I thought that his body was, you know, sent across the Atlantic. But it was actually quite a nice story. He was buried in the United States. But his friends back in Dublin, when they heard of his death, they erected a very nice, Celtic cross for him right at the original entrance of the cemetery as well.
00:12:54:01 - 00:13:11:03
Speaker 2
And the headstone says that he died after the restoration of the great Republic of the United States. That's inscribed on his headstone, which is quite a nice, you know, tribute to them, particularly because he's not buried there. It's his friends put a lot of effort into making sure that his memory would be there forever.
00:13:11:03 - 00:13:36:22
Speaker 1
When we have veterans cemeteries now, you have these headstones that are supported by the military or individuals, but back then, you know, it wasn't something that the military would generally do, and it would have to be your friends. And in the cemetery, you know, there's there's individuals who died, during service on their ships or wherever. And you can see these headstones and they're saved.
00:13:36:22 - 00:13:57:04
Speaker 1
But like, they they would literally go around and collect money to pay for one of these headstones. And it would be, you know, raised by their shipmates. And, you know, these individuals were quite loved by by their comrades. And, you know, that sounds like one of those stories where it's like, yeah, they put this beautiful headstone there.
00:13:57:06 - 00:14:00:06
Speaker 1
Even though he gave his life, in a battle in the Civil War.
00:14:00:06 - 00:14:26:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. And that's why, the work that the Commonwealth War Graves Commission does is very important, of course, in marking graves that were previously unmarked in Glasnevin Cemetery in particular. I would work with them quite a bit, you know, as I think I mentioned in the the previous, episode that the majority of the people in the cemetery are unmarked, and that would include the last who would have served at during the World wars, who for decades, for whatever reason.
00:14:26:07 - 00:14:48:23
Speaker 2
You know, family farms or, you know, were went unmarked. And, you know, over the past 20 years, I'd say quite a lot of them have lovely new headstones. You know, that the Commonwealth War Graves Commission would have helped with, in fact, it was about 230 in the entire cemetery at this point, most of whom fought during the First World War.
00:14:49:05 - 00:14:58:10
Speaker 2
And then I think about 40 of whom served during the Second World War. So it's an ongoing project. But as I say, it's certainly a very worthwhile one.
00:14:58:10 - 00:15:04:16
Speaker 1
So you have these Commonwealth headstones. Do you happen to know offhand any of the stories of those individuals?
00:15:04:16 - 00:15:34:16
Speaker 2
So actually two connections, to, Canada. There was a guy called that Peter Conroy who, enlisted with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, during the First World War, he was fighting near the, Belgian border, and he was shot at by a sniper. The ultimately and in the head as well. But he survived, the injury, but was returned home to Dublin, but in a completely awful way, you know, as you can imagine.
00:15:34:18 - 00:15:57:19
Speaker 2
Now, he died in 1918, in Dublin, but as a result of his injuries. And then there was another guy named John, er, James Carroll as well, who also served with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, both of whom would have emigrated from Dublin, served with, you know, or went over to, to Canada, enlisted and then returned across the waves.
00:15:57:21 - 00:16:25:08
Speaker 2
And, he ultimately fought, as I say, in the trenches of the First World War and survived, but returned to Dublin. And, of course, what came after the First World War, the influenza pandemic and the Spanish flu, and they actually died as a result of the of the Spanish flu. Both of his headstones, I believe. Mr. Carroll at the Canadian government, actually, purchased his grave in the cemetery for him.
00:16:25:08 - 00:16:39:16
Speaker 2
You know, things like that are quite nice to hear, you know, that these men who were in originally unmarked, who ultimately, you know, played a very key role, I suppose, we're no longer forgotten, which is, you know, quite a nice, quite a nice thing.
00:16:39:16 - 00:17:01:10
Speaker 1
One of the things that not many people recognize about the Spanish flu during that time is that the estimates are somewhere of, like 50 to 100 million people died, you know, and that's that's more people died, due to the Spanish flu than the actual conflict at the time, which was the First World War, which is just it's it's mind boggling.
00:17:01:10 - 00:17:07:15
Speaker 1
And, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of victims of the Spanish flu buried in your cemetery given when it was.
00:17:07:15 - 00:17:33:07
Speaker 2
We had an exhibition in the museum that we have here in the cemetery, back in 2019, at which the centenary, I suppose, of, you know, but, it's kind of focusing on the effects of this in Glasnevin and not only from the perspective of public health, but in terms of the genetics of so many people dying in Dublin and the logistics of burying so many people in such a short span of time.
00:17:33:07 - 00:18:03:15
Speaker 2
Cemetery was really put under a huge amount of pressure, pressure that hadn't been seen since cholera outbreaks in the 1840s and 50. So it really did, you know, decimated entire communities, you know, and pandemics and, you know, events like that. The cemetery is often the place where you find in a burial record, for example, because it often wants the poorest of the poor who died somebodys name in a register book called The Death, influenza might be the one reminder of that, the one bit of legacy of that person today, which is quite sad in one way.
00:18:03:15 - 00:18:09:19
Speaker 2
But at the same time, it shows you how great of a historical resource. I suppose the archives of the cemetery are.
00:18:09:20 - 00:18:29:11
Speaker 1
There's these major events that go throughout history. You have, you know, the Spanish flu, but people will often forget just how catastrophic the Irish famine was. And I sure you have a ton of victims of the Irish Famine there. Just for our listeners who might not know what that was, would you mind giving some kind of context to that?
00:18:29:11 - 00:18:55:01
Speaker 2
It's often called here in Ireland on Gore to more, which is Irish for the Great Hunger. At the time, a considerable portion of the population of the country, which was 8 million at the time, relied on the potato crop. There, of course, easy to make their, you know, give people all they need really in life, heavily reliant on it and then place all right across Europe.
00:18:55:05 - 00:19:19:23
Speaker 2
But here in Ireland, like decimated the potato crop. And so millions of people no longer had, food source that they relied upon. And so within the span of just a few years, the social fabric of the country, the political fabric of the country, completely became undone. Now, Daniel O'Connell, the founder of the cemetery, as I said, in the 1840s, he was near the end of his life.
00:19:20:01 - 00:19:44:21
Speaker 2
And in March of 1847, which in Ireland, 1847, it was the worst year of the famine. It's called black 47, you know. So it was a truly traumatic year for this country. And in March 1847, O'Connell was in, Parliament at Westminster, and he delivered a speech in which he warned that if something is not done, the 25% of the population will be lost.
00:19:44:22 - 00:20:10:01
Speaker 2
And those words ultimately proved very true. In the famine, a million people died, starvation and related diseases, and a million, of course, emigrated across the sea to the United States, to Canada, to England. The population since then hasn't recovered to the pre, you know, famine time. So where I think the entire island of Ireland has a population of around 6 million.
00:20:10:01 - 00:20:45:02
Speaker 2
Now, if I'm not mistaken, 6 or 7 million. And the population before the famine was 8 million, so completely decimated entire areas of the country. Dublin quite a large city. Of course, it wasn't as impacted as this is on the west coast of Ireland. Counties like Galway, Mayo, Kerry, Donegal, they would have been affected incredibly. Here in Dublin, though, many people did die as a result of the famine, but it's difficult to provide an exact number of those who died because on a burial record it's not going to say cause of death, famine, it's going to say malnutrition.
00:20:45:02 - 00:21:11:15
Speaker 2
It's going to say, one of the diseases like typhus or cholera, that would have spread at around the same time. Try, as I mentioned, Frederick Douglass, he visited Ireland just as the famine started to begin. And he was shocked and appalled by the conditions, that he witnessed here. So Ongar tomorrow is really remains in the folk memory of the people of Ireland, even though it's in some parts of the country, it's still a topic that people aren't comfortable discussing.
00:21:11:15 - 00:21:40:08
Speaker 2
It's a very emotive topic in Ireland, and it's why there are more people, Irish people, you know, people of Irish descent living in the United States. And you know about the same lines of people from an Irish background living in Canada. I think just over 4 million Canadians describe their ethnic background is as Irish, in 2021. That is why there's such a huge Irish diaspora, because for decades after the famine, people were, you know, leaving the country.
00:21:40:08 - 00:22:05:03
Speaker 1
There was significant Irish populations. And that emigration during that time and the ties and you know, ultimately, when it came to war and with Canada and the world and the First and Second World War, Canada had, I believe, three different Irish regiments that were put together. And so in the First World War, we would see a lot of like the Irish, the Scots, regiments and such.
00:22:05:03 - 00:22:31:10
Speaker 1
And these were basically regiments that were put together with similar heritage. This is why I find cemeteries so interesting. And again, why Glasnevin ends up being on top of my list is because it's a place in Ireland, but it's connected directly to the United States, to Canada. It's it's our it's our history. Is there any other, story that you would like to talk a little bit more about before we wrap up?
00:22:31:10 - 00:23:03:17
Speaker 2
Well, quite aside, connection to, Canada is of course, the, take a lot of people, Canadian listeners in particular will be familiar with the 1985 Air India disaster, the worst, terrorist attack in Canadian history, I believe that was off the southern coast of Ireland, off the coast of County Cork, I believe. I think it was, Montreal and it was flying to, India and a bomb exploded in, in the plane off the coast.
00:23:03:19 - 00:23:30:17
Speaker 2
And many of the funerals because, you know, of course it would have to take place here in Ireland, given the proximity, happens right here in Glasnevin Cemetery, Glasnevin, at the time, had the only crematorium in the Republic of Ireland. And so the victims, many of them were actually sent, to Glasnevin Cemetery. Now, quite a sad, connection is that, you know, they were cremated here in Glasnevin.
00:23:30:17 - 00:23:54:21
Speaker 2
We actually only have one burial from there in the bombing. It was a young boy, you know, baby named Anchor Set. And he went kind of unidentified for quite a long time. He lost family members in the, in the attack. But he was buried here in Glasnevin Cemetery, and his name was eventually put up on a little headstone form, quite close to actually to where I'm standing and where I'm standing now.
00:23:54:23 - 00:24:31:17
Speaker 2
In fact, about a year ago now, am I? It's members from the Canadian Mounted Police and the counter-terrorism unit. And they came over, they got in contact with me and they came over to Glasnevin Cemetery, and I wanted to pay their respects as grave, at least a little. Yeah. It's a nice little tradition to place a little stone or little pebble or a coin and a candle, on, on this little grave, when we talk to people about the Canadian connections to Glasnevin Cemetery, his story is probably the first one that I would always, you know, tell people, an incredibly tragic story, of course, but you're mentioning the links and all of that.
00:24:31:21 - 00:24:46:10
Speaker 2
Of course, those links are often family links and which are always nice to talk about, but we also have links to some of the most tragic events, you know, over the last two centuries here as well. And 1985, Farron did disasters, certainly among them.
00:24:46:10 - 00:24:58:15
Speaker 1
It's a sad story and it's something you say er, India, almost every Canadian knows that that story again, another reason to come and visit the site. What's next for you? What's, what's on the docket.
00:24:58:15 - 00:25:15:16
Speaker 2
To set up a, different video content kind of telling people about these stories at the cemetery, on TikTok and on Instagram. Because I've kind of a an American History background, I often try to sneak little connections to the United States and us, under the radar.
00:25:15:19 - 00:25:35:17
Speaker 1
Walt, and thank you so much for joining us today. I really enjoyed hearing just the history. And and again, that's just that that interconnectedness that history has and how some of these individuals impacts just ripple throughout the world. And, you know, I feel a little closer to Ireland, and I hope our listeners do too, after listening to the show.
00:25:35:18 - 00:25:43:00
Speaker 2
And thank you very much. It's my pleasure.
00:25:43:02 - 00:25:55:17
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:25:55:21 - 00:25:56:21
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.