Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:00)
Welcome back to the USA.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01)
Thanks. It's been, oh, a week today, actually.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:04)
I know, but last people were hearing you were there. So now you're back. And I texted you while you were in France, Beyonce and Jay-Z were there at the same time. Did you run into them?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I didn't, but apparently a bunch of other people were there too. Like I kept seeing like random posts from people or celebrities about them being there at the same time as well. So I'll say, don't know if there's something happening.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:18)
really?
Yeah, you were there. Everybody was like, yeah, they were like, maybe we'll run into Taina. my God.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:30)
They were all there for me.
Yeah, well, I didn't. I didn't run into anybody famous or anything like that, which I'm actually thankful for. I'm I'm such a curmudgeon. I'm just like, whatever. I don't need all the hullabaloo.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:43)
You know,
I always think that too. And I think if I were famous, would I want people flocking me and stuff? I just think it's so annoying. And I do try to remember like, they're just people. I was just thinking about that this morning randomly, actually about how we got all worked up about people. But then if you really think about like, they're just people and they have when they travel, like their legs get sore and they get tired and they get cranky and they get hangry and.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:09)
I don't know,
just all the same things that everyone deals with. have tummy troubles. I don't know. just like, I don't know. think we, goes back to this idea of capitalism conditioning us to believe that if we just get rich enough, all our problems go away. And I think because we buy into that, we actually start to think, oh, celebrities don't have, like, they just have no problems. Rich people. And we, you know, think of all celebrities as being rich, which is also not always true. But we always think of them as being people who have no problems. Like,
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:38)
Somehow they move through life on a cloud and everything feels good. And not to say that having a chef who takes care of your food and a, you know, all the things. Right. Certainly all that makes life easier, but it doesn't change the fact that we all exist inside of these like meat sacks that even if you can start to try and slow down the aging look, like your body still feels things. You're still, you have emotions that you aren't able to shut off. You have,
Taina Brown she/hers (01:41)
Mm-hmm.
a personal stylist and a private jet.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:06)
pain that your body experiences, whether you want it to or not. And like, I don't know, I just think when I tried it, when I can get into that head space and really put myself into someone else's mind in that way, it helps me free myself from some of that, the bullshit belief that, if I were just rich, everything would be better. I do believe if I just didn't have to stress about money, things would be better. And I do think that's very real. But I don't think being rich, rich is going to make my life better. And in some ways, I think it would make life worse because I don't
Taina Brown she/hers (02:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:33)
I can't even imagine how it would suck to be like, we're going to Paris, we're going to have a great time. And then you have to think every moment about your safety, about whether you're going to cause problems for the people around you because of the, you know, the crowd, the attention that you draw, just trying to like go anywhere would be a fucking headache. So I don't know. I don't think I, I know a lot of people want to be famous kids now and you ask them what they want to be. It's like, they just want to be famous. I just don't think it's, it's not for me. I know that.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:59)
I feel like everything you just said was like shaped through your anxiety.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:03)
my god, really? Tell me how? I mean, yes, I have a great deal of anxiety.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:04)
Because I feel like if you're rich enough,
you have people to handle those things for you, like your security. You have people to think about those details for you. I don't completely disagree that rich people still have problems or wealthy people. They definitely do. bodies still age no matter how much money you have. I think the nature of problems is different. But I do think being richer could make my life better.
like in so many ways, like I don't think money can buy happiness, but I think money can buy a lot of things that can lead to happiness or can lead to a happier life at the very least.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:38)
I mean, I can afford my Luxapro. I'm very lucky because I have health insurance that helps, you know, the pays for this. But I don't know that there's some, mean, there's probably all kinds of designer fund drugs, but I don't want to take drugs. Beyond that, I'm not sure how being rich would help me. It would help with some of the things that contribute to my anxiety getting elevated. But like I...
Taina Brown she/hers (03:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:59)
I just think my brain is wired in that way. like, guess maybe that's, maybe that's part of it is because of the way my brain is wired. think being rich isn't going to solve that problem. It just, it's a, you know what I mean?
Taina Brown she/hers (04:02)
Yeah, yeah.
Well, yeah, absolutely not.
Being rich is not going to make me less, like it's not going to make my PTSD go away. Like it's not going to make my trauma go away, but I will have better access to things that can help manage that as opposed to just taking medication, right? Or just taking medication and occasionally sitting down with a therapist. know, like those things are helpful for sure, but like, if I didn't have to live where I live.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:14)
Right. Yeah.
Sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:35)
If I had the means to escape, when I say escape, don't mean mentally escape. mean just go to the mountains as often as I wanted to, or go to the beach as often as I wanted to, or spend time with the people that I love whenever I wanted to, even if they live states away or oceans away. Things like that. It's the access. It's the access that money buys to certain things that...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:44)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:59)
that I would otherwise not have access to, that I don't have access to, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:03)
Yeah, and I
can feel that. then I also think, well, first of all, the celebrity and fame or fame and wealth are two separate things. So let's say even if we remove the fame, the piece, I don't I wouldn't want that, because, yes, I think I got people that would help with security and everything else. But I wouldn't love that feeling of being so clearly differentiated inside a crowd of like all the attention being put on you, all of your movements being monitored and watched.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:09)
Yes.
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:28)
photographed, shared with, disseminated to the world, judged, all of that. That feeling would not be good to me. Maybe that's anxiety, but I think most of us, there may be, there's some people who just really would enjoy it. But I think that's why so many people get to that level of fame and realize, this sucks. Like I see Chapel Rowan and everything she's going through and people have a lot of judgments and I know that she's also had some issues. But like, I think part of it is just this, I think I thought I want this and now I have it. And it's not as fun as I thought it was gonna be. Like it kind of sucks to have all this attention.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:31)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:56)
So like the fame part, we can set that aside. Just dealing with wealth. I still think, and let's just talk this out, because what else are we gonna talk about this episode? I think about being rich, and I think there is a degree to which it's probably lovely. Like, absolutely. I think having a certain amount of money where I can not have to, like if I own my house outright, if I own my vehicles outright, if I could have some help with, you know,
house cleaning, food, those sorts of things. Great. I'm talking wealthy wealthy though, the kind of wealth that other people salivate over and think they really want, like millions and millions, right? Or even into billions, but millions and millions of dollars. I feel like again, in my mind, it starts to separate you, alienate you in that I've seen what can happen with people who have more wealth and even not massive wealth.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:35)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:47)
But other people get jealous. Other people get resentful. Other people think they should have some of that, that you don't do enough. They begin to judge you a lot on how you're using that money and are you taking care of them and expectations from family. And then you start to wonder who around me is with me because they like me or who's around me because they want access to this money and all the things that it provides. I don't know, those things, and maybe that's anxiety too. Obviously that peppers every thought I have.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:15)
I don't, think up to a certain point, I would love to have much more financial freedom, but I still feel for me there's a point where it would become alienating in a way that I don't think would contribute, I think would actually go against my happiness. But maybe I'm making that up.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:29)
No,
I don't think you're making that up. I think that's always a risk and that's always something to contend with. I think for me at the end of the day, and when I say rich, I don't mean billionaire rich. Let's just be clear about that. We don't believe in billionaires. But yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:40)
Yeah, wh-wh-where?
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that should even be a thing. Honestly, I don't
I think if we lived in the world that we both were dreaming of, I would probably have a different relationship with the idea of wealth because I would know that other people would have their needs met. I guess maybe that's part of my problem is I can't imagine having more than I need, even more than I would really want, meaning like I still have all these I still have nice things like, right. I don't not just needs met, but even
Taina Brown she/hers (07:55)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:10)
Some of my once met, I can't imagine having all this excess while I look outside and see people who are begging on the street because they don't have any money. Like, that was...
Taina Brown she/hers (08:20)
Yeah, but you're assuming
that you can't do anything about that with extra, with excess.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:25)
I
can't, okay. How much extra do you think it takes for a person to the unhoused problem for someone to cure cancer?
Taina Brown she/hers (08:34)
Well, it's
not a one person problem. I think that's where I think we're trying to say the same thing. We're just saying it in different ways. Like, doesn't matter how much money you have, you're not going to be able to solve that anyway. And even if people start to resent you for having more money, at the end of the day for me, like, that's not my fucking problem. That's how you're deciding to now address me and think about me. So just because I'm my...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:37)
Well, exactly.
Yeah, you were envisioning being
Taina Brown she/hers (09:03)
common to some money, not all of a sudden you feel like, not you specifically, but like, you know, someone I, if someone I have a relationship with, if now they're starting to resent me or, you know, or they're being judgmental. One, at the end of the day, like people are going to judge you regardless. So whatever. And I'm going to be anxious about things regardless. So I might as well be anxious and have money and access to things. Right. So like for me, I just, don't see it as,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:08)
I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:29)
I don't see it changing my interiority, my interior life that much. Like obviously it will change my exterior life and that is something to consider and to think about but I think I have just long ago decided that I just don't give a shit how people perceive me. I just really, really, really, really, really fucking dump I spent and I only say this so vehemently.
because I spent so much time in a fucking cult just constantly thinking about how I'm being perceived. Like that was the 24-7. Yeah, religion. Yeah. That was the, that like, just was the motivation for everything. And it was so toxic, so fucking toxic that anything that feels like it's going to pull me back into that mindset, whether it's religion or whether it's something else, I am just like, nope.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:02)
Religion specifically, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:22)
Like you just cannot have access to that part of me anymore.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:26)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I get I think I can't separate a fantasy idea or whatever. It's hard for me to have a thought exercise wholly separate from reality. Right. So I guess in my mind, it's hard for me to think about being wealthy outside of the existing structures and systems and being uber wealthy. I, you know, again, what's that threshold? I don't know. But
Taina Brown she/hers (10:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:54)
I'm thinking, you know, the Jay-Z's of the world and the Beyonce's and the, you know, the people we were talking about at the beginning of this where that is like billion or near certainly combined. They they're worth over a billion. And that I can't separate from the reality that we live in where I just, I do have judgment. I do have judgment of those people. I do have judgment of people who are living way, way, beyond their means. And when I see that they aren't doing enough to do, to think beyond themselves.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but what's enough? But that's the thing, we don't, you don't know what's enough for any one person. Like just like, I can't judge you for saying, oh, you're not doing enough even in your current life right now. Whereas if you were millions of dollars richer, I still can't say the same thing. I can't say you're not doing enough because I don't have access to you 24 seven. And so I think, and this is, we actually talked about this in.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:23)
That's that I wouldn't be that person. And I don't, right, and it's hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:49)
book study last week a little bit. were reading, we were going through chapter four of how we show up at Meabirdsong. We're talking through, like at the individual level, like we can only decide for ourselves, like how much is enough? And at what point we begin to share those resources, right, with community, with our community or with the world around us. And enough is different for everyone.
because you could make millions of dollars, but be millions of dollars in debt. So then how are you sharing your money then, if that's the case? You can't, right? But maybe you're doing something else. So I just don't think that's a valid argument to say or to feel like...
⁓ you have people who have more money should be giving more money. I think there's more than one way to give. There's more than one way to give up yourself and of your resources to the world.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:44)
Well, what do you think that, here's, I don't think, I think we both have said we don't think billionaires should exist. No, we haven't said that or no, you don't think so. ⁓ okay. Okay. I thought so. And I was like, wait a minute. Okay. So, and, I think the idea that every billionaire represents a policy failure is something we both can get behind, right? That,
Taina Brown she/hers (12:49)
No.
No, I agree, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:01)
Billionaires become billionaires because our systems are set up to allow that to happen and the system should be different so that it can't happen. Meaning, taxation should happen at a rate that doesn't allow someone to mass that amount of wealth without some of that being distributed down, right? Because we know that that wealth has been generated on the backs of folks who are not seeing all of that wealth. Okay, so we have this in place, we agree on that. And so I talk about this a lot. And I do judge people who are billionaires. I judge them. I judge, and I know,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:30)
Again, I fully believe they represent a policy failure. My bigger judgment remains for the policies that have allowed it, right? The systems. And yet I still do judge those people because I do think, don't be a billionaire. There are ways to no longer be a billionaire. You can get rid of that wealth. You don't have to hold on to it. You don't have to hoard it. Should the systems be in place to make that happen so that you're not at the individual level being tasked with that responsibility? Yes, because I don't think the individual should be the one getting to decide what happens that wealth.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:38)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:58)
I think the people should be deciding what happens with that wealth, not one individual. I think that's deeply problematic. And yet we have systems that allow those people to become billionaires. And I think that they shouldn't be. And I think they should get rid of that wealth. So when I make these arguments online, inevitably I will get met with people saying, what about Mackenzie Scott? They love to reference Mackenzie Scott because she remains a billionaire. She's giving away a great deal of wealth. She's Jeff Bezos' ex for people who don't know. And she made out like a bandit in their divorce. And she is worth a lot of money.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Did. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:27)
She
remains worth a lot of money and yet, and she is giving big amounts of money to amazing organizations. Incredible things she's doing. I can, and I think people have a hard time, they struggle with when I, because I say, I don't think any billionaire is ethical. I don't think you can, I don't think you can be acting within an ethical structure, a moral structure, hoarding that amount of wealth, even if you're, you know, giving away lots of it, while other people are suffering. I just don't.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:34)
HPC use, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:54)
I don't see that. And people will point to both Mackenzie Scott and Taylor Swift as their examples of where they say, well, one, particularly with Taylor Swift, they like to say she's quote unquote self-made. I don't believe there's a self-made billionaire. I know you don't either. Right? Of course not. And for both women, they like to point out one, they're women. And two, they give a lot of money away. Taylor Swift, I'm not so sure. I haven't seen the evidence of that beyond this like big bonus that she gave these truck drivers that people always like to talk about.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:59)
Yeah.
No. No.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:21)
But with McKinsey Scott, that's one where I focus more because I do see she is doing great things with her wealth. And, and for me, it's the and. I think, yes, as far as billionaires go, it is the best model I've seen. And it's not enough. It's not enough because she remains a billionaire. So it's not enough. She could be doing far more and she's choosing not to. And that is a choice for anyone who thinks it's not. It is a choice. She's making the choice to give away lots of money. She could make the choice to give away even more.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:47)
And she's not. And that is a choice that she has made. And I think that's a non-ethical choice. Now, people argue with me. I'm curious because of where you stand on this. you, do you support that? Or are you sort of like, well, I don't know what else she's doing or I don't know what choices she's making or whatever. I'm just very curious given what you've said so far. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:04)
Yeah, well, I mean, I'm not talking about billionaires. I'm not talking
about billionaires. I think the difference between a multimillionaire and a billionaire is so vast. Like, and I think that's something that people forget or just don't comprehend completely. No, no, like it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I mean, it's unhinged how wide that gap is.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:14)
Very best.
I don't think we can comprehend, don't, none of us can truly comprehend the size of a billion. I mean, it is astronomical, a billion.
It is. we're close to having
our first trillionaire. That is... Yeah. The human brain can't comprehend that amount of wealth.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:34)
Like that is insane to me. Insane, insane.
So I'm not talking about billionaires. I think when it comes to billionaires, that's just the hard line. Like you said, there's just no way to amass that amount of wealth without it being exploitative. And I also think, yeah, Mackenzie Scott has given away a lot of money.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:44)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:58)
And we don't know what she does in her free time, right? We don't know. like, think, sure, she could be doing more. We don't know. But what we're talking about, well, we know her finances. But I think what I think where people get hung up in that conversation about specifically about Mackenzie Scott is they're talking about her as an individual, as a woman, like what she is doing. Is she an ethical person versus
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:05)
Well, we do know.
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:23)
her financial situation, right? Which is a symptom of this like structural capitalism that has created this exploitative model of labor and wages and things like that. And so you obviously can't separate those two things, but they're not flattened, right? Like it's a Venn diagram. Like she is not the sum of her finances. Like there is more to her than her wealth. And so I think that's where a lot of people might be getting hung up there. All that to say,
She's irrelevant in this conversation because I'm not talking about billionaires. I'm speaking specifically about people.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:54)
Well, but that does bring up Jay-Z's argument
and other people's arguments because recently he was asked about being billionaire and whether he was ethical and whatever and he got very angry. And I generally don't like to bring into a conversation identities that I don't hold. So I don't love using him as an example, but this did just recently happen. So I will bring it up because it's often what people also, plenty of white people will say, which is so if I had 999
Taina Brown she/hers (18:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:20)
million dollars, I would be okay, but I have one billion so I'm not, right? And that was sort of his arguments. Like there was this imaginary line that you all have created for me on where my wealth now becomes unethical or bad or makes me a bad person. And I do, my answer to that is I don't know what I always say and I'm curious what yours is going to be. But my answer to that is I don't know the number because that number is whatever number we have to get down to for all humans to have their basic needs met.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:46)
meaning that every person has access to healthcare, every person, and I don't mean access as in you can pay for it. I mean, they can get their healthcare needs met whether they have money or not. They can get education, whether they have money or not. They have at least a roof over their head. They have safe shelter. Right, exactly. And they have food, right? So those sort of basic human needs are met. Once everyone has those,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:57)
Yeah, yeah.
They have their needs met, not just access to getting their needs met, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:12)
whatever that number that all the world's wealth has to come down to, and that still has all been met, and now you have your extra, that's the number. I don't know what that number is. don't know that maybe there's a formula out there that has shown that number. I don't know that it has. But that's the number in my mind. I can't give you that specific number because we as a human race don't fucking care and haven't figured it out, right? We're not set up to make that a goal because that's not how we live in capitalism. But that would be my number. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:37)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:38)
I wanna know what your, when you hear people like Jay-Z or anyone, because I hear it from people all the time online. So 999 million's okay, where's your line, Taina? Where's the line? Because you said, we're not talking about those people. Who are we talking about in your mind?
Taina Brown she/hers (19:43)
Mm-hmm.
We're talking about just people who appear to have an abundance of wealth. And I use that language very specifically, who appear to have an abundance of wealth. Because the way someone chooses to live their life isn't always the actuality of what's in their pocket and what's in their banking statement. So that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who were like, that person's rich.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:09)
for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:17)
your neighbor down the street who are like, like you can tell they have money or you assume that they have many. Yeah, you're yeah, exactly. Who drives Alexis or has a Mercedes. Like those are the people I'm talking about. Like. So like, I think we have to. I think the way we talk about finances in this country, the way we talk about money in this country is so black and white. It's either like you're rich or you're not. And it's so much more complicated than that is so much more nuanced than that that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:21)
Yeah, my neighbor who's got a pool.
Okay, that's not who I'm talking about. okay, that makes sense.
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:43)
there are degrees of wealth that get lost in the conversation. And it brings me back to this conversation I remember having, or this discussion I remember having in grad school where it's like, one of my professors asked a question, what makes somebody middle class? And it's like, well, everyone thinks that they're middle class in the United States and not everybody is middle class in the United States, right? Right, right. Everyone's like, yeah, I'm middle class.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:05)
ever since the reagan era at least, right? like i feel like that was really when middle class became like... huh. then we started
having degrees of middle class. i'm upper middle class, i'm lower middle class. i'm solidly middle class.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:13)
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
Like we just got our taxes done and our accountant was like, yeah, you guys are still solidly in the middle class. And my wife and I looked at each other like, we are? Because it sure as hell doesn't feel that way. So again, it's like everyone's financial picture is different, but the way it can be perceived by other people can like, that's where the judgments come in, right? Based on how people.
view your lifestyle, right, by what you're able to afford or not afford. But I think in terms of like the question, like, where's like the Jay-Z conversation, like, I don't think there is a number, there isn't a formula to get us to a specific number because everybody's needs are different, right? And so I think that number for someone could be $120,000 a year, right?
for somebody else, could be $500,000 a year because maybe they have $400,000 in student loan debt, right, from going to medical school or being a lawyer. Yeah, yeah, the cost of living is different. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:09)
Well, and it's it's very different living in New York City or San Francisco than it is living here in St. Louis. Of course, those
things are all very real. Our responsibilities are different. Some of us have multiple generations living in a home or have responsibility for multiple multiple generations. Some people don't even have kids and they've dual income.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:26)
Of course, all of those things, I agree. And it makes me think of that commercial that used to run probably 20 years ago, but it has always stuck with me. It was this guy driving around on his riding lawnmower, waving to all his neighbors, happy about looking like he had like this beautiful home with a beautiful lawn, his riding lawnmower. You saw his designer car, he's waving to all his friends. And then he was like, I have this, I have this. And I'm up to my eyeballs in debt, right? And I don't remember what it was commercial for, but it was just so striking because I was like, this.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:49)
Hmm.
Probably some
debt consolidation company. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:55)
Probably, but it felt like a picture of America. I was like, this
is what happens when we are conditioned to think we need to always have more and we have to keep up with whoever the person down the street with a pool makes me start to think, well, maybe I should have a pool. We have a community pool that we go to and we love and we have community there, right? My kid has friends to play with there.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:02)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:14)
It's not as fancy as having a pool in our backyard. There's parts of me that would love a pool in my backyard, but also I'm okay without a pool in my backyard. But because somebody else has a pool in the backyard, my sister-in-law has a pool in the backyard, you know, my brain can easily start to go to like, well, maybe I need a pool in the backyard. And that, like keeping up with the Joneses thing has so many Americans living so in debt. And so, yes, and I'm not talking about those people. So it's very different than like,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:42)
I'm not saying somebody who has a million dollars necessarily, and also you're right, because what's a million dollars? Are you earning a million dollars a year? Do you have a million dollars in wealth, it's in your retirement fund, but you can't access it anyway, right? Like obviously that stuff's different. I'm thinking about people that we, that I think most people would consider sort of hoarding wealth, meaning...
Taina Brown she/hers (23:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:01)
They've got enough for them and future generations at this point, right? They don't ever have to work again. Their retirement's paid for. They've got retirement money for the kids' right? That kind of a, like that's that level of wealth that I was sort of thinking of as we're talking about this. And that's the stuff that would make me feel, first of all, would make me feel unethical and a bit immoral. And for me, for my own set of beliefs,
Taina Brown she/hers (24:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:25)
But also it would make me feel nervous because those are the kinds of people that get targeted. Right. And I know I can hire security, but I don't really want to live my life worrying that people are trying to figure out my movements so that they might be able to get my stuff. I wouldn't want people like my own family members. I wouldn't want to start questioning is this family member or this old friend wanting to interact with me because they like me or because they want to ride on my private jet. Right. Those that level of wealth is where I start to think.
it to me it starts to feel like it's more problems than it's worth frankly like once i have my well they bother me so that's good i guess we
Taina Brown she/hers (24:54)
⁓ yeah, those things don't bother me, I don't think. I'm like, like, I'm
just, whether or not someone is trying to spend time with me, because they may or may not want to, you know, use my pool or ride on my private jet or have access to the same things I have access to them, just like, if you want access to that, sure, fine, whatever, like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna treat you as at face value, like, I'm gonna treat this relationship based on
the information that I do know. I'm not going to like assume information that I may or may not know or that might be inaccurate. also don't, I don't have a problem with people who have the amount of wealth needed to like have accounts for like children and grandchildren and things like that. Like I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to save.
save enough of your, your wealth for like future generations. I think the problem becomes, well, I think part of the problem is in the, the why or the how, right? Like how you, how and why you do those things, right? ⁓ and, and again, this is at the individual level, right? I'm talking about the individual level here. I'm not talking about structurally. And so, but I think also my perspective is coming from
someone who is black, whose ancestors were enslaved, who currently, who will always be generations behind in wealth.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:16)
And that's probably why your perspective, and I really feel like at the heart of it, that's probably what's different about our perspectives here. Because I'm looking at it through this lens of, and that's why I also say I don't love to bring other identities into it because while I don't think anyone should be a billionaire, I don't want to speak specifically to Beyonce and Jay-Z in that story. Because I recognize there's a big difference in their being billionaires versus Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:30)
Mm-hmm.
In the perspective, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:43)
and Mackenzie Scott. And I know that because of all of this historic stuff, right? Like it's a very different scenario, the structures and systems that have allowed someone to get to that place. And so that's why generally I try not to speak on anyone. I mean, I'll speak on white woman having wealth, but not a woman of color. I try not to speak on a black man having wealth. But I will say, I think as a white person, when you say like, don't have any problem with people amassing wealth for future generations,
Like, I fundamentally agree, except that. I know that I can't separate that from the systems that we live in and the systems that have, like you said, put many people, specific people with specific identities, generations behind. And I don't mean like a couple generations, eons behind. And with no ability, with little ability to change that. If you look at wealth as a metric,
Taina Brown she/hers (27:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:37)
Like black families are not just a little behind. It is appalling how far behind. And that is not because black folks aren't going to college or black folks aren't getting great jobs or black folks don't know how to save money. Exactly none of that's the reason. It's because of redlining. It's because of Jim Crow. It's because of slavery. These are issues that go back hundreds.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:42)
hundreds of years behind.
We have some of the highest education rates in the country.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:03)
hundreds of years. And so that puts families that far behind and because of continuing structural limitations, continuing to stay behind, right? So even with the addition of education and with some of these other things, you can't get a good job when people are racist who are hiring. You don't get paid the same amount when the people who are deciding pay rates are, the racism is baked into those things. So like, I guess my thought is with all of that stuff in place,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:28)
I do feel like there is some responsibility among white folks who have benefited from these hundreds of years of advantage, unearned advantage, or even stolen advantage, to know that and to say, yeah, I want my kids to be taken care of, but maybe I don't need my kids' kids and kids' kids' kids' kids' kids' kids, right? Maybe they start to take care of themselves.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:38)
Mm-hmm.
But then what else would you
do with that money? If you had that money today, what else would you do with it?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:53)
Well, I think, I for me personally, if I had that kind of wealth where my retirement fund is taken care of, honestly, I don't even know that I would be putting so much forward for my child. I would be like, they'll inherit my house, whatever's left over when I die. there's some, you know, if I die early or whatever, or I don't suffer for a long time so we don't have to use up all the money I'd saved for my healthcare, he'll get that. And then he can take care of himself. He's a white man.
He's gonna, he'll figure it out, right? Like he's got all the advantages already. He doesn't need me setting him up for another generation. If I can just make sure that he can survive. And by the time, I hope by the time I die, I will already have evidence of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
But what if he gets into a car
accident and becomes like quadriplegic? I mean, God forbid. I obviously do not want this to happen to your son. But what if something like that happens and then they can't?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:33)
Well, you know, but guess what? Of course not. Let's all hope that doesn't.
Well, first of all, I have the benefit of insurance. I have the benefit of family support and community. I have the benefit of owning my home out, not outright, but having equity in my home that I could take out. I have the benefit of some amount of retirement, not a lot, but some. So like I already have a lot of privilege, even though I don't, I am in no way wealthy. And in fact, I'm doing my taxes right now and it is.
We're scary. But I also recognize that I have a whole lot of unearned advantages that can help in those situations. And I know that if my child were to have that accident tomorrow, even though I don't have wealth, I will be far better off than if a black single mother of three kids had that same problem with her child. Probably. Right. I have probably more advantages that I didn't earn. And so, yes, would I love to have some more money put aside? Probably. But I also feel like there is something incumbent upon us as white people.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:02)
Yeah.
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:30)
to at least consider as we're thinking about what it is that we think we quote unquote need, because I think we're very conditioned to believe that the pool is a need. The pool's not a need. The chef's not a need. Those are great to stop. Now, with a caveat, maybe some of those things become needs if you have certain disabilities or other situations. But like on the whole, most of the things we think we need, the Mercedes, the whatever, those aren't needs. They're wants. Our needs.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:54)
If your needs are already met, you're doing better than so many other people. So can you not start to think about how do I redistribute some of this in the form of mutual aid? And I've been trying to do more of that. And yes, it sucks. Like it does suck. It comes at a cost. I don't have a lot of, I mean, wealth is an interesting word because I suppose on paper, I probably am still wealthy in that I think my assets outweigh my debts.
It's close, but it's there. so I do think I have some amount of wealth. I mean, it's yeah. I mean, unless the housing market really tanks, this house right now is the only thing that keeps us in the wealth category. And believe me, it's not a mansion. But we bought smart at the right time, which no one can do anymore. Right. So like, there you go. And so that's an advantage I have. We were able to buy a house in the nick of time that we actually do have equity in our house and probably always will.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:20)
You're dancing across that line!
Yeah, the right time just doesn't exist anymore.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:46)
These are just, I just think if nothing else, are things that I think white people should be grappling with more than I think that they are, well, than I know that they are. And yes, I recognize that me as an individual and the quote unquote amount of wealth I have, I can't make the kind of change I want. But I think if I see people and I do cast some amount of judgment, because I do know that the people that I know well enough to know,
Taina Brown she/hers (31:56)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:14)
aren't grappling with these questions, aren't thinking about these things, and are really only concerned about me and mine. And I get it, I love me and mine, and I wanna take care of me and mine. But I also recognize I exist in system and have gotten to where I am through a whole bunch of benefits that a whole lot of other people didn't have. And does that make it fair or just or correct for me to then say, well, I'm just gonna focus on me and mine because my kid could have a horrible accident? He could, I could.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:15)
Hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:40)
I get all that, but I sort of think that's part of the mentality that has gotten us to where we are. Because I could also see the enslavers having that kind of mentality. You know what I mean? It is! And I think it's different for me to grapple with than for you, and I fully recognize that.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:47)
I
Yeah, I think it's a slippery slope, right? Like I think it's okay. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I just, think in my head, it's like, you can take care of you and yours and also do the other thing, right? And I think, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:09)
Absolutely, I'm not living on the streets. So clearly I am taking care of me and mine, right? Because
I see that too sometimes in activist spaces with white guilt and people feeling like, I can't have anything and all that. It doesn't do you any good. I mean, I do believe in the oxygen mask. Put your own mask on first. I am making sure that we have food to eat. My kid is safe and he's getting a great education and he can go to the doctor. All those basic needs I've mentioned are more than met, right? But do I need to put a pool in the backyard?
Taina Brown she/hers (33:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:35)
Would I love it? Sure. Would I like to finish our basement even more basic? Yeah, that'd be really helpful.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:40)
I just think.
How do I say this? I think if you had the means to have some of those things that you want, not just need, but that you want and still contribute to mutual aid and still, like, I think, well, you can't right now, but I'm saying hypothetically, if you could do all of that, put the fucking pool in the backyard, finish your fucking basement. Like, I'm just like, I just don't think that's something you should feel guilty over.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:47)
Mm-hmm.
but I can't, that's the thing, right?
Yeah!
But I
think the key there is you're saying and still be able to do things like mutual aid. I guess where my judgment is the people I see who are not doing that because they keep thinking I will win. Right. Like, well, once I get the pool, once I get the it's like they have to have their dream life built for themselves before they're going to help anyone else. And I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:26)
Yeah, there's no such
thing as a dream life and I think that's where people lose the plot.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:29)
Exactly. I think
if you're in that mentality, that's I guess that's here we are. I love that we're getting closer to the end. We're coming around to it. I think we're getting to a same shared space here. And if that's the mentality you're holding onto, that's like that capitalist mindset that means you will never reach whatever mystical finish line you think it's going to be before you start helping. If you're not already helping before you can have all of your your once met.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, then you're not gonna hope
once you get there. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:54)
Exactly. And
that's where I guess I see my judgment come in is when I see people that I can tell are fully invested in that kind of mindset and they think, well, I would love to be a billionaire because then I would do all of these things to help other people. But then when you look at what are they actually doing right now and the answer is nothing because they think they can't do it till they get there. And I guess what I'm saying is I can still have my needs met and have some of my wants. I have some of my wants, obviously, like.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:10)
Nothing, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:19)
You
know, there I obviously have more than I need. I have a four bedroom house for three people, right? So I have my own office. That's that's that's a want, not a need. If you look at me. So these are I do have once, but I also am making sure that I'm doing things all along the way to help others, even when it does feel like a pinch, even when it does sometimes hurt a little where I'm like, ⁓ that could have gone into that savings fund to eventually get the basement done.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:28)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:44)
But if it's like, if the only way to get the basement done is at the cost of ever doing anything beyond me, I think that's the problem. I think that's the capitalist mindset that I want to try and stop. And I would love to see most specifically more white people starting to challenge inside themselves. Does that feel aligned with it? Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, no, that feels good.
That feels like I understand what you're saying there. I think it just...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:05)
And I agree, think
your outlook should be different.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:08)
Yeah, and that's what I was going to say. I think my outlook is because of my own personal history and also the history of my ancestors. My perspective is there's nothing wrong with excess and moderation. And so get your needs met, get your wants, but how is that affecting how you interact with the world? I try not to cast like...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:24)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:36)
any kind of value or moral judgment on people who live with excess because I don't know what they do in their free time with their money and with their time and their energy and their resources. But I think there's just as there is a line for enough there for me, there's a line for excess, right? Like the minute that excess starts to interfere or with how I'm able to like show up in a way that's values aligned for me.
or the minute that it becomes harmful to myself, to my home, to the people I engage with, then it's like, okay, then there's that line, right? And that can fluctuate, right? That can fluctuate year to year, month to month, depending on what my life looks like, depending on what the economy looks like. God, we came back from our trip and gas was over $4 a gallon. And when we left, it was like 320 or something like that. And we were only gone for like six or seven days. So...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:29)
In the Midwest,
we usually, we have cheap gas and it's 3.99. I went to the grocery store tying it and it's $2 for a bell pepper. They're supposed to be like, they used to be 50 cents. I'm like a dollar I thought was outrageous for a bell pepper.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:39)
Yeah, 20 cents. remember
when they were 20 cents.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:42)
They were a dollar, not even six months ago. Like how does it double? Anyway, I used to have an issue and I'm going to make sure this comes around. So please hear me. I used to have a real issue with Rachel Rogers and we should all be millionaires. And what I've recognized is my issue. And honestly, some of that recognition is truly from this conversation. So thank you. Because in my mind, some of my issue with that was, first of all, I don't think that pink washing capitalism
helps anyone. So by that I mean replacing the people at the top of the hierarchy with women or even women of color. Like that's not the point. The point is there we go. The point is to to dismantle the hierarchy. So that was I've always sort of felt this frustration around it. And I've also felt some discomfort talking about that because Rachel Rogers is a black woman and her program attracts a lot of black women. And I'm not one to say black women shouldn't have wealth. I think we should. And what I'm realizing through this is I think the problem I've had with her program
Taina Brown she/hers (38:10)
No.
with women. Yeah, blackwashing capitalism doesn't help anyone.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:37)
Is it her? It's not the theory. I mean, there's some amounts of capitalist stuff in there that I don't love, but my bigger issue is that there's a whole lot of white women, including myself for a while, right? At the beginning of that, who are in there. I think, and I think Rachel might be able to do a better job of communicating this, but also I don't think that's incumbent upon her. I think we as white women need to do better at understanding that that program makes sense because of all the reasons we've talked about.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:42)
Mm-hmm.
who have adopted that, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:05)
and that black women should be millionaires, right? Black women should be trying to amass wealth because of all of these disadvantages that have them generations behind. We don't get to, as white women, attach ourselves to that and then somehow excuse ourselves from all these other things I've been talking about because it's a black woman telling us we should all be millionaires.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:25)
So well,
I guess I should be too then without any recognition of all of the advantages I've had or that my lineage has had. Even if you don't feel advantaged, like you've had advantages, right? I don't feel, yeah, I don't feel wealthy, but I do recognize I've had a lot of advantages. Even though my mom's family had outhouses, they were poor as fuck. Like I get all that. I get it when white people say that stuff. I still have ridiculous advantage.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:35)
You still have a jump start, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:48)
And I don't think it's right for me to glom onto this program. I think what white women love to do is hold onto the woman part of their identity and not the white part. We've talked about this before. And so we start to say like, well, women have had all sorts of things that have been, you know, all these ways that we've been disadvantaged financially. Absolutely true. Right. We've had to give up our own assets to go on to under a man who manages the assets. I'm talking like, you know, generations ago, obviously. But the structures have always been there to put women behind financially.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:17)
up until the 1980s, think finally, we finally really had full financial freedom around credit and everything else and buying homes. And we still have had this proximity to wealth that has allowed us through generations to accumulate wealth for our families as well. And we can't separate those things. And I think white women like to, so they join programs like Rachel Rogers and give themselves this permission structure to basically buy into capitalist greed.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:24)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:45)
where they should be doing the work to like, untether themselves from that. And that program should be exactly that, that it should be a program for black women to be making up that gap versus us getting in there and saying, we're women too and we should be millionaires too because we're disadvantaged. And now suddenly we're only making the problems, we're not helping anything by doing that. So anyway, this conversation has helped me realize my problem on the whole, isn't that, isn't Rachel, it isn't the program, it's the white.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:12)
taking of it, the white, like, you know, the appropriation, I guess, of ⁓ permission structure that women are, white women are using with that kind of, that kind of narrative, not just from Rachel, but from other folks that promote that same kind of thing. So thank you for helping me see that.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A million dollars
to me is not the same as a million dollars to someone who's had hundreds of years of a head start to earn generational wealth. So it's different. It's different. ⁓ I mean, I have other issues with Rachel Rogers and all of that, but we don't have time for that today. And I don't want to get into it either, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:36)
Exactly. Yeah. This is great.
Okay, well, I was right. don't want that. And again, I, yeah,
yeah. And I'm not, don't want to try and fault one person. It's just that, that messaging. And it's not just her because there are so many people out there. I see a lot of black women who are talking about like, who are selling programs to help women get wealthy. And I think at their heart, when it's about getting women of color, more wealth, that's a very different.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:57)
yeah, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:10)
experience and reason and need than saying all women need to get wealthy. And I just, I just see the way we as white women love, love to cling on to the woman side of our identity and, and make ourselves believe that it negates the white part of our identity. And it just doesn't. And I just a million times want to encourage people. I used to be that person. So I know it well, like
Taina Brown she/hers (42:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:36)
I really believed my struggles as a woman were on par with anyone else's struggles, right? Like that is, and it's just not true. And it's hard shit to break through, but I just always want to try to remind white women that like, that is the work. That is our work. Our work is to understand that it can be both and. It can be both that women have had many disadvantages, have been marginalized, oppressed in all the ways and.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:02)
our whiteness still has afforded us advantages. Even if it doesn't feel like it, it absolutely has. So we have to know that, honor that, and show up with that responsibility in mind in how we approach everything, including our money.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:09)
No.
Yeah. Agree.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:19)
Okay, okay, good, I feel like we've come back around.
This was a robust and wonderful conversation. And it's really funny, because I just woke up this morning thinking about celebrities and fame and money. I don't know why, but it was good to talk about.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:32)
I know. I don't know why either, but it was good to talk about.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:34)
Did you eat your weight in croissants for me? You better have had at least one for me.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:37)
I actually did not. I, yeah, yeah.
No, I definitely had some, I definitely had some really good food and really good treats and really good breads and stuff. ⁓ I just, I got a little exhausted a couple days in and so then I had to take like, there were two days where I basically was just like bed rotting in the hotel for most of the day and then met up with my wife and our cousin for like dinner and stuff. But it was fun. It was a really good time. wasn't.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:48)
Mm. Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:06)
I was a little nervous again, traveling with an 18 year old, because my wife and I are both in our 40s and we're just like, what is this going to look like? But it was actually a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun and it...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:16)
You're like the
cool cousins or aunts or whatever you are.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:19)
She called
us the adult figures in her life. some of the adult figures in her life. And I don't know why, but I was just like, what the fuck did you just say to me? But it was fine. It was fine.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:28)
Because
it doesn't matter how old you are, Tayina, you never feel like what you think an adult is supposed to be. I mean, I'm 50 fucking years old and I'm like, when am I going to feel like an adult? Because I don't. And I have a child who thinks of me like I thought of my mom. That shit blows your mind because I'm like, I'm not as old as my mom ever was. Like, no. It's crazy.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, never.
Yeah, and the GoPros keeps moving, right? but yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:52)
which is why
you see 80 year olds who are like, I don't, I don't feel old. I don't know what you're talking about. So yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:57)
Yeah, I can
still do everything. No, you can't, you can't. ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:00)
Yeah, that's the part your body
does eventually betray you and mine is starting to do that. Yeah. You start to look in the mirror and you think like, who's that old person? Because that's not me. Yeah. Good.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:03)
It does. It does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was fun though. was
a good time. was a good vacation. We spent a total of two weeks with her. Only one of those weeks was in Paris. yeah, I'm still kind of like on the post vacation hangover. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:23)
Yeah,
you know, that whole like I need a vacation after my vacation is so true. Yeah, vacations aren't always restful. And that doesn't mean they're bad. They're just not always restful.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:31)
It's
it's work, especially the traveling part is the work, right? And so.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:35)
Go back and listen to
our last episode about travel and how the all the additional work that people have to go through with that.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:39)
Yeah, yeah. And then we had to
like drive through two hours of traffic once we did get back to the US to get home. Like, it's awesome. You just want to go home. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:45)
⁓ And when you're you're just like as soon as that plane touches down when you're back, you're just like get me in my bed now I just want to be in my bed. I don't want to
unpack. I don't want to drive I don't do any I know I know that feeling well, I'm glad you're back
Taina Brown she/hers (45:54)
Yeah, yeah, but we had to,
yeah, yeah, we had to go through customs, had to take the shuttle to the parking, we had to drive through two hours of traffic, I had to think about dinner, like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:59)
I have all the-
Socks, seriously, I just wanna lay down. I know, I know that feeling.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:07)
Yeah, I was like, if it was
going to be this much of a hassle to come back, I would have just stayed in Paris, if only.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:12)
You
probably should have. All right. Well, it's lovely to have you back. Thank you very much and we'll see you next week.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:16)
Thank you.