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This season has been kindly sponsored by Visit Anaheim. Go to VisitAnaheim.org/meetings to learn more.
What’s really driving the backlash against DEI — and what can we do about it? In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Poornima Luthra, a globally recognized educator, speaker, and author, whose work unpacks the emotional root of resistance to inclusion efforts in today’s workplaces. Drawing from her latest research and extensive experience across sectors, Dr. Luthra helps us move beyond performative efforts and toward building cultures of true belonging — including in the spaces we design as event organizers.
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Convene Podcast Transcript
Why Fear Fuels DEI Backlash — and What Event Organizers Can Do About It: Conversation With Poornima Luthra
*Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies
Magdalina Atanassova: Welcome to this Season eight episode of the Convene Podcast, brought to you by Visit Anaheim.
What’s really behind the growing resistance to DEI? Author and educator Poornima Luthra shares insights from her latest research into the emotional root of backlash — fear — and how that fear shows up in today’s workplace. In this episode, she and Convene’s editor in chief Michelle Russell discuss what inclusive culture really looks like, why performative DEI efforts fall short, and how event organizers can foster spaces where everyone feels like they truly belong.
We start now.
Poornima Luthra: So it was something that I wanted to study,
and I've been wanting to, because it's been like it's been in the background of all my previous research and writing.
And so I've spent the last two years diving deep into the backlash and resistance to try to understand it,
because I do feel that if we want to make progress, we have to understand where this backlash and resistance is coming from,
what is causing it. And if we don't get to the root, we're only then solving for the superficial, right. On the surface, where patching, where, you know, putting the band aids on without really going into understanding what is the wound?
What are people actually feeling?
Why do they feel so many emotions when it comes to dei?
And so I started digging into the research, and of course, there is good research that looks at how DEI is seen as a threat.
And so that was my foundation upon which I built my research to go out there to understand, all right, people see it as a threat. And threat to what? Threat to your status, threat to culture value,
threat to opportunities, access to resources, threat to the very idea of meritocracy. Right. Which we are definitely seeing play out today.
So there's good research that shows us that we see DI as a threat.
Now, what happens next is what I was interested in. So as human beings, whenever we see anything as a threat,
then it evokes in us, of course, the fight, flight, freeze, fawn response.
And that comes with emotions. And so I wanted to try to understand, well, what are the emotions at play here?
What are we actually dealing with? And so the emotions are everything from feeling overwhelmed, feeling anxious, feeling panicky, feeling a dread,
feeling that this is.
This is just too much. That sense of overwhelm, feeling worried about what this means for me, feeling this sense of that this is somehow frightening. Like, there's an unease with this.
And then I went into the research on emotions,
and it turns out that these emotions that are at play come down to the very core human emotion of fear.
And that was like, aha, there we are.
And it was funny. Cause I was actually. And this is a Side story, but I was actually out at a museum and it was this Icelandic artist who had salt and pepper shaker for guilt and fear.
And it was that week when I was looking at emotions and this was coming up and I suddenly saw it and I'm like, it's fear,
right? It's there.
The challenge though, as I collected my data and interviewed people, is that we have a fear of fear itself because we are so uncomfortable of coming to terms with the very fact that fear is at play.
And it. And we're just. That creates this whole discomfort. So the book began from there and I found that the core is fear. And so I wanted to understand, well, what are we fearful of?
And that was what. What I was re. I researched. So it was the emotions at play, the core emotion of fear. And then understanding what are we actually fearful of when it comes to di.
And the intention, of course, of writing the book was if we identify the wound, if we identify the core,
the reason behind this,
then we can do something about it. We can let go of that fear.
So given that it was the fear,
it was the emotion of fear and the fears and what kind of fears that came up from my research, it was about how do we let it go.
So that was writing the book. And I do believe that if we can address this,
then we can move things forward. And of course, the intention is to help us move forward.
Michelle Russell: So I would say there's a lot of fear mongering going on right now. I think it's now a double edged sword. People are afraid.
Again, speaking from being in the United States. People are afraid of the backlash and they're also afraid of, this is a new environment. How do I navigate this so that I am being inclusive,
yet I'm not calling attention to kind of being woke.
So I think that you wrote this at a really interesting time and I.
Poornima Luthra: Wouldn’t have imagined that it would come out at this time. Right. So two years ago, when I started the research,
of course, backlash and resistance. I also wanna be conscious of this, is that we can. Yes, it might be at its peak in some ways, but who knows what's going to happen in the future?
None of us are fortune tellers. But if we look back in history, civil rights movements in different parts of the world, if we look at women's rights movements or the LGBTQ movements, right, there's always been resistance, there's always been backlash.
And it's come in waves and up and down. And people at that time would have said, oh gosh, there's so much backlash. And it's not to trivialize what we're experiencing or what anyone in history has, but it's also to say that when there are movements like this of backlash,
it's easy to assume that, oh my gosh, this is the worst of it. But also we have to ground ourselves in maybe some inspiration with the fact that people in history have gone through this and they have come out the other side, you know, fighting for what they believe is the right thing.
So I draw a lot of inspiration from that in my own work, in my own ground,
when I show up in keynotes. It's difficult. I mean,
I understand how it is in the US but it's actually,
yes, it's easier, it's better maybe in some ways because we're removed from that and yet we're not. Because when the US sneezes, the rest of us catch a cold.
Right? So it is. I mean, most companies across Europe that I work with have received a letter from their US Embassy saying that they need to remove any evidence of DEI training, the usage of the terms DEI in their work, in what they're doing.
So there are companies that are facing that, especially if they've got federal contracts in the US if they have US based customers. So companies are feeling the pressure now. Some of them are adjusting their language that they're using in their operations in the U.S.
others are saying, no, we're not going to do it.
So we're also seeing backlash to the backlash,
which is very interesting how that's playing out as well. And then there are other parts of the world that are just going ahead and doing it. They might be changing some of the language, going into, like you said, stealth mode, under the radar, I call it stealth mode.
They might be going under changing some of the words that. So a lot of companies that I work with are going from di related terms to inclusion and belonging or well being and belonging teams or even titles for folks.
Right? So there is a pivot and I'm okay with that. I think there are people who have different views on this. My thing is that as long as the companies are continuing to do the systemic and cultural change work that is necessary,
call it whatever you want,
but as long as the principles are there around what we're actually trying to achieve, which is to embrace uniqueness and differences,
which is to ensure that our processes in our organizations are actually fair and that we are creating a culture of belonging to. Now, if we can focus on those core principles, as I write in the book,
then I'M okay. I'm okay with the names being changed if that means the work continues. My worry is that if we get too pedantic about we have to keep the name and then there's backlash, consequences,
then we risk companies stopping doing anything,
and that causes more harm than a name change.
Michelle Russell: Right.
It's just a very interesting thing because you talk a lot about using the right words and people being afraid. You know, can I say that? People being afraid about communicating the way they communicate something.
So it's interesting that you're okay with kind of softening those word choices, but communication still remains really important and continuing the work.
Poornima Luthra: For me, it's the deep work. Right. It's the systemic and the cultural work that needs to be done. And I'll be very honest with you, Michelle. I do think that there's some DI work that needs to be reevaluated.
There's a lot of performative band aid work that is going on in many companies, and it is superficial.
And this is that pivot point.
It's not pleasant.
There are lots of groups that are,
of course, facing the brunt of the impact of this change. So my heart goes out and there are communities that are really suffering.
I don't want to take away from that. At the same time, I do think that this is a pivot point for companies and for us as DEI practitioners in this space to really hold a mirror up to ourselves and say, are we actually doing what is necessary for the kind of long term sustainable,
systemic and cultural change that is necessary?
Is that what we've been doing? And if not,
what do we need to do to make our processes in our organizations actually fair so that we are achieving the goals that we want to achieve?
So I do think this is a pivot point and it's not to take away in any way from what people are experiencing. And I want to acknowledge that at the same time,
there's a lot of performative work that has been going on.
Michelle Russell: It's interesting. One of the insights that not being in the DEI space as part of my role, although we write about it a great deal,
is just I didn't think about the pressure on someone with that role to feel they need to measure outcomes.
Poornima Luthra: Right?
Michelle Russell: That they. This is not just like a nice to have kind of role, but you need to be able to point to outcomes.
Poornima Luthra: And that is a big problem that we have because our, you know, capitalist model of organizations means that for most leaders that I work with, they are so concerned with their quarterly results, with performance,
that's what drives them and what they're held accountable for.
And so when you bring in diversity, equity, inclusion, and you say that, all right, we're going to invest resources into this,
what is the outcome?
What are we measuring here?
And the easiest things to measure are of course, targets, quotas,
diversity targets, and across visible dimensions of diversity. So it could be binary gender identities, it could be nationalities, ethnicities, depending on parts of the part of the world you're in and what kind of data we can collect.
Now the problem with this data is that if DI is done right, it takes time to do.
It takes resources, it takes time.
So you don't see immediate quarterly results, you don't see sometimes yearly results.
And yet these leaders who are leading DI and the line managers who are expected to, to act on it to achieve those targets, they're not seeing those results quick enough because actually it takes time to do so.
And then we create this whole performative thing of all right, we'll just do something that puts people into position, that looks good, that we can look at those numbers and say tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
And what the consequence of that, that's created the zero sum game,
right? So then it becomes, all right, so then it's if we are prioritizing women, it's at the expense.
If we're prioritizing underrepresented ethnic groups, it's at the expense of majority or dominant ethnic groups. And we create this us versus them, which is why we are where we are.
And yet if we look at the core principles of diversity, equity and inclusion,
it is meant to level the playing field, make sure it's fair so that everyone stands a fair chance.
And if we are truly able to do that,
then it isn't someone against someone,
it is about leveling it, making it fair, making it. And I put in quotations, meritocratic because I have issues with the very concept of meritocracy as I write in the book.
But it is this idea that then it's a fair level playing field and you know, then you are competing in that space.
But we've created the us versus them. We've created the zero sum game also in the ways we've communicated about DI and how we've gone about it. So we do have the mirror to hold up and say, well, how do we do this better?
How do we focus on the long term systemic change and how do we get leaders in our organizations to shift how they look at it and looking at more at a long term targets in terms of is the organization Actually inclusive.
Looking at measurement,
that isn't always easy, and it doesn't always necessarily look good. It may be difficult to collect this data, but we make efforts to do so.
And it's not what looks nice on a pie chart of how many women and men we have.
Michelle Russell: I think for our audience who are creating spaces, temporary spaces for people to feel like they belong and they're welcome and they're all recognized,
the only measurement they have would then be, you know, demographics, where they came from,
gender background,
and also feedback,
because that is very important for our industry, is to get feedback from participants.
So if you could just sort of shift your attention. You kind of covered this at the end of your book where you talked about the development of products and services and marketing, customer service.
But what would you say to our audience of organizers who are tasked with making their events as inclusive and welcoming as possible,
and often in their choice of who they. Who they hire as speakers?
So there is diversity of thought, diversity of backgrounds represented,
and yet not calling attention to being woke and woo, woo. We're all about dei. What is the kind of approach you would suggest?
Poornima Luthra: So I think an intersectional lens is super important here as we look at it, right? So we want people who bring in different backgrounds, different life experiences that they're bringing in, different professional experience as well.
And the key for me is that we need to have a good representation of views, but also very competent people on stage, Right? So for me, the communication is around, what is this person bringing to the table?
What perspective are they bringing? It might be the research that they've done or their experience in an organization that has got them to where they are and they're going to share about that.
It could be a life experience, a lived experience as well, because we need to acknowledge that that's also a part of the diversity of experiences that we want to put on the table.
So that's one thing is to make sure that it's not just the tick box of, yes, we have a black person. Yes, we have someone from this community. Yes, we have someone from the LGBTQ community.
That isn't it. What is the value that they're bringing and communicating on that.
So when we introduce speakers, when we put up the speaker profile, right? So as a keynote speaker, when someone introduces me, I would hope that they're not introducing me as a brown woman,
right, living in the Nordics, but rather that, yes, this is the work that I've done, this is the research that I've done, these are books that I've published I would hope that it's based on my competency, that I'm bringing something to the table, so grounding it in that.
But also casting the net far and wide. I do think that in focusing on competency, sometimes we take the easy way out,
so we don't cast the net far and wide. We don't make an active effort to look for speakers. That might not be the obvious choice, but they have a wealth of knowledge to share,
wealth of experience to share. And that requires scouts who go out there who are really looking for this talent. So it's still grounded in competency, but they're casting the net further and wider.
They're asking people beyond their immediate networks for who do you know in this space who's the best person I should speak to?
And that opens up our network. So that's just on the speaker side. But for me, when I attend conferences and events, which I do a lot of, one of the things is also how inclusive is the space.
Right. So we have. I'm an ambivert. And actually, conferences scare the living daylights out of me. And you think, as an academic, that I'm comfortable with it, but I don't like that kind of small talk.
I don't do well in that kind of environment. I'm very happy when I go to events where they have a quiet room where I can sit and be with myself.
And that doesn't just benefit me as an ambiver, it also benefits someone who's neurodivergent. Right. And they enjoy that quiet space when they need a retreat from the overstimulation that often happens at these conferences.
Today I had a question that came up in one of my sessions this morning that was running for a client,
and they were talking about events that they hold, corporate events that they have in the company,
and how people struggle with everything being in English.
Right.
Because let's face it, the world is extremely diverse on language.
And. Yes, and we could also question why English is the standard operating language. We could talk about that and colonization and its influence.
But we also need to acknowledge that, you know, I sit in a part of the world where people speak a variety of languages. There's Danish, there's Swedish, there's Norwegian. As I travel across Europe, there's French,
German. And people are comfortable expressing themselves. Speakers are comfortable expressing themselves in their own language.
Magdalina Atanassova: Right.
Poornima Luthra: I've been in situations where the audience, for example, is French. And I'm, of course, I don't speak French well enough, at least. And so I'm speaking English but could you have live translation or even apps?
Michelle Russell: There are apps, right?
Poornima Luthra: Last week I was at an event where I was speaking in English and it was being translated into Danish and vice versa.
So the parts of the event that were in Danish were being translated to English.
There are ways to do this so that we create an environment that it's not just for the audience, but also for the speaker. Because I would imagine if you truly want representation of viewpoints from different parts of the world, we also have to come to terms that not everyone is going to express themselves in the best way possible in English,
it could be another language. And how do we adapt to that? And we create an inclusive space, an inclusive environment for both parties, for the audience and for the speakers as well.
So I think there's a lot to consider actually in this. So it's. Yes, the experience itself, how do we ensure that different personality types, neurodivergence is taken into account and then linguistic differences are taken into account and of course, representation of variety of intersectional backgrounds, experiences and competencies.
Michelle Russell: That's great.
You gave me some examples. But could you think of one conference that did,
did this really well, where you could tell right away that people had been either trained or they just had a culture of belonging, inclusivity, diversity. They embraced all of those things.
What were the elements that gave you that sense?
Poornima Luthra: So I attend a lot of corporate events,
much more than I attend academic conferences. Because like I said,
you know, I'm not the biggest fan of academic conferences, I'll be honest. And as an academic, that's a strange thing to say, I realize,
but I actually attend a lot of corporate events. Interesting.
Michelle Russell: Is that because you are speaking at.
Poornima Luthra: Them most of the time? It's because I'm speaking at it.
I'm on a panel, so I do about 90 keynotes a year. So inevitably I get to a lot of different. Some are smaller in scale and others are 3,000, 6,000 people,
employees from around the world that have come together, these massive platforms.
And I think I've already stated some of the things that really, for me feel like you walk into that space and you feel that, all right, there's quiet space if you want it, there's networking spaces for people who enjoy that, there's food choices for everybody.
I cannot emphasize this enough. I'm plant based, I'm vegan and having food choices, also having,
you know,
networking opportunities that don't revolve around alcohol.
Right.
And those are all the kind of things that really, they're small in many ways, but they make such a difference having name tags with the pronunciation of someone's name. So, like my name.
Poornima, could you ask the person to say, how would you say this? Right.
For those who would like to include their pronouns,
have that opportunity. I understand. In today's world. And can I say that around pronouns? Right.
And you know, people are so hesitant. Should we put it. Should we not put it. Should it be in our email signature? But give people the option that if they'd like to put down their pronouns, that they should be able to do so.
So it's all of these things. Right. And they're small things, but it's the places where I've noticed that they pay attention to these things.
They pay attention to the details. Yeah.
And it is language for me. It is a big one. I know that most conferences and events are organized in English, but what if we just pause for a moment and say, well, why?
You know, it's very humbling when you learn a difficult language.
I've been learning Danish for the last 10 years since we moved here. I'm terrible at it.
But it is so humbling because when sometimes I attend events where it's largely in Danish and they ask me in advance, would you be able to do your presentation in Danish?
And I'm like, I wish I could,
but I can't because I open my mouth and I can't string three sentences together.
And it doesn't sound intelligent. It doesn't sound like I am someone who knows my research really well. And that's very humbling. So I think, you know, for those of us who have privilege and advantage in assuming that English is our first language,
I think it's very humbling when we learn a different language and try to express ourselves intelligently and competently in a different language,
that's build that empathy to understand how someone. We're asking someone else whose first language isn't English communicate intelligently and competently on a platform, on a stage.
Well, why?
We have technology. We have AI today.
It doesn't take a lot for us to do these things.
Another great one. Oh, my gosh, this is fantastic.
It was a book talk that I was doing at a very large book event by my Dan, organized by my Danish publisher of one of my previous books that's been translated into Danish.
And they had a section where I was in conversation with the moderator on stage talking about my third book. And everyone else had headphones on.
It's like the silent disco kind of thing. But silent talk, I suppose. Everyone had headphones on.
And for those who are neurodivergent, they don't want that stimulation.
It's such a nice way to just sit, headphones on, noise canceling. You're just listening to that person. You're not overwhelmed with everything else going on around you. All that extra noise.
Isn't that fantastic?
Michelle Russell: It is fantastic. We just did a story about a conference for neurodivergent people and that was a big thing, was having those headsets. It's also a way to have instant translation and just hearing.
Yeah. In your own language and sign language.
Poornima Luthra: Right. That's also another one. I was at an event two weeks ago where I was speaking and they had live sign language translation going on.
Michelle Russell: Wonderful. I mean, I think you have to ask your audience if they, if there's a need for that, if that's what they want is really important when you have those questions on your registration form.
Poornima Luthra: So food choices are great.
Ask them if they need translation services, sign language.
These are great things to ask. And I think as an attendee, if I switch the roles, because most of the time now, I mean, of course I've attended conferences just as an attendee or events, but so much time now at conferences and events when I'm on the other side.
But if I were to ask myself, when I receive a registration, if these questions are there, immediately I automatically feel.
Michelle Russell: Like, yeah, they care about me.
Poornima Luthra: Yeah, about me. Right. They're taking my food preferences into account.
They're asking if I would, you know, benefit from a quiet space,
you know, to, to decompress.
You know, I think these are, these are really, really positive things. And they don't just benefit neurodivergent individuals or introverts.
I mean, when I speak to people and almost everyone wants that moment of like, okay, it's been a full day.
Let me take that moment. Right. To be with myself.
It could be people who say, all right, you know what?
It's been three day conference. I really want to eat something nutritious,
healthy. All right, let's eat that. Right. It could be various people with different language needs and all of that being catered for. And it just opens then your conference up to a whole host of other speakers, a whole host of other attendees.
I mean, that's just. To me, it makes me happy.
Michelle Russell: That's great. It's sort of the curb cut effect. Have you heard of that?
Poornima Luthra: Yeah, exactly. I write about it in the book, if I'm not wrong. Yeah. At least in one of my books. But I think it's in this one. Yes. Yeah,
exactly. And I just spoke about that this morning. That, you know, it benefits everyone.
Michelle Russell: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I have taken up enough of your time. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to add?
Poornima Luthra: No, not at all.
Michelle Russell: Thank you for taking the time.
Poornima Luthra: It was lovely. Thanks, Michelle.
Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. We want to thank our sponsor, Visit Anaheim. Go to VisitAnaheim.org/meetings to learn more. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.