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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
Welcome to the Effective Ministry podcast.
The podcast that helps you have
an effective youth and children's
ministry in your church.
And with Easter, just around the corner.
A whole bunch of people in churches are
preparing for all age moments, all age
services, all age gatherings, , even
just parts of services for Easter where
kids are gonna be in the room, , kids and
teenagers and adults and all together.
And that is gonna bring opportunities
and it also brings challenges as well.
And in this episode, we're focusing
on the low hanging fruit for
when the kids are in the service.
So there's gonna be simple, practical
ways to include kids and youth
meaningfully in your service without
it being over complicated, particularly
if you are a kids or a youth minister.
, Or if you are a preacher
or a service leader.
, We are really wanting to help you
to just do the simple things to help
kids really feel like that they are
genuinely part of the body of Christ,
that they're welcome in the room and
that their presence is not just a really
wonderful kind of addition, but actually
they're part of the body of Christ.
, I'm Al James.
, And in a moment, , Megan Gates is
gonna be leading a conversation
with Adam Jollof and me.
As we share some ideas that you
can pick up and put into practice
straight away, whether it's for
Easter Sunday or Good Friday, or for
any other all age gathering as well.
Here's the conversation.
We really hope it's helpful.
I.
May: Welcome to another episode
of the Effective Ministry podcast.
You are here today with May, myself
from the YouthWorks Ministry support
Team, as well as Adam Jole from
the North, and Al James from the
Al: Hello.
Hello.
Adam: Good day, mate.
May: Today we're talking.
Al: doing, wait, hang on.
Joof.
Adam: Yeah, it's not Jo,
It's
Joof.
Al: Joof.
We love
May: Sorry.
I was wondering why you
were looking at each other.
Like what?
Al: Well, I, I will, I
Adam: happens quite often, but
Al: I was trying to work out
if he was gonna react or not,
but Oh well anyway, play on.
May: That's fine.
Sorry, Adam Joof.
I have to get better at that.
Today we're talking about, uh,
low hanging fruit for when the
kids are in, in the service.
, So Al and Adam, can you tell us
a bit more about why you were
keen to talk about this today?
Al: Yeah.
Well, I mean, like, I think the first
thing that jumps to mind, and we've
got a list of, list of things that we,
the reasons we think it's a, a, a good
idea, the first thing is because the,
the kids are part of the body of Christ.
Okay.
So,
Adam: yeah.
Al: You know, um, when kids are in
the service, it's not a token thing.
It's not like a, you know,
oh, isn't that wonderful?
Isn't that precious?
No, no, no, no.
They are part of the body
of Christ and so it matters.
Adam: Right.
They're not future church.
They are church.
Exactly.
Um, they're young brothers
and sisters in Christ.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Al: Um, I reckon also like it.
There are multiple points in most, I
would say most churches, I mean, you
guys are the children's ministry, like
experts, but I would say in most churches
there are definitely in the run of, um,
the kind of the usual course of things.
There are lots of moments where kids are
in the service, whether that's weekly in
the sort of first, um, third or quarter of
the service, whether that's, um, so at my
church, we have kids in, in the holidays.
, And some, some churches will have like
a, a termly family service kind of idea.
Is that, is that right?
May: Yeah, that's
Adam: exactly right.
Al: yeah, yeah.
May: So if we're already doing
this though, why do you think we
need to talk about it a bit more?
Like, why is it on the agenda
to have a, a chat about low
hanging fruit, do you think?
Adam: Yeah.
Well, I, I think a lot of people don't
really know what to do or they might get
very anxious, perhaps service leaders.
Um, they'll just use language that
can ostracize kids and actually
say, you're not a part of us,
rather than you are a part of us.
Um,
Al: and it's not, it's not,
it's not intentionally, right?
Adam: Absolutely not.
Yeah.
It's just what.
they do what they've always done
or what they've seen always done.
Um, but
sometimes we need to think very carefully
if we're going to actually be intentional
about changing language, we need to
put a bit of work into it, um, so that
the children feel like, ah, this is
my place and I am very welcome here.
Al: yeah,
May: yeah, We were just chatting
before about, before we came on the pod
about this, and I was saying how, um,
I was really keen to get the service
leaders at my previous church, um,
to mention the kids and how great it
is to have the kids in the service.
Adam: Why were you doing that?
Like what?
May: In my role as a kids minister,
we were having the kids in, um,
over the holidays, particularly
over the summer holidays.
Um, and that's really helpful that
you say why actually the intention was
more, um, to remind the adults in the
room that the kids were gonna be in
the service and to, um, encourage them
that this is a positive thing and that
there might be a little bit of noise,
but that's like we're all in together.
Um, but yeah, there was something
helpful that you were saying about
the way that we use language and how,
um, addressing having the kids in the
room can actually even highlight how
that's a difference to having the whole
family in the room and how actually it
should be normal that, you know, the
kids are a part of the church service
and that it's, it's not an odd thing.
Um,
Adam: So true.
And it might come out in something like
this if the service leader stands up and
then says, Hey everybody, we're so pleased
that the children are here with us today.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Adam: The message behind that
language is that, um, the kids.
Aren't normally a part of the church.
Mm.
Um, and you know, we are glad
that the kids are with us.
Who is us?
They are the church.
But this extra group of people
who are normally not in the
same space have come in.
Um, and they might think, oh, it's,
it's great, but the message to the
kids is we're not a part of us.
and it's like
Al: it, when, when that said once,
it's kind of like, no big deal, right?
Like, it's right.
You know?
But over the course of years and years,
like that language starts to seep in.
Potentially
May: Mm-hmm.
Al: you know, unless, you know, there
might be all sorts of different things.
Like it's all part of an ecosystem
of stuff, but it, but it, um, you
know, we, we wanna be shaping a
culture that is, um, reflective of,
of the things that we really believe.
I
mean, one, like, you asked why, like,
why did we want talk about this?
May: Well,
Al: One of the things that really
inspired me to kind of think about
this was I was listening to an
episode of The Pastor's Heart.
So shout out to, you know, pastor's heart.
Some of the guests were kind of debating
whether at Easter they would have an all
age service with kids in, or whether they
would run a kids program and they had,
you know, a back and forth as to which
was better and all that kind of thing.
Um, and the host, Dominic Steele, um,
after that kind of conversation happened,
the language that he used was like
why did he have a kind of a preference
for, , having the kids in kids programs
rather than having an all age service?
And he said he needed to admit that
despite the fact that he's an an above
average communicator to adults, he's
quite worried about being able to hold the
attention of an intergenerational room.
And, um, and he sort of just reflected
that, \. Part of his reticence to have
kids in the room, , is not so much that
it's a good or a bad thing, but he's
worried about his own ability to do it.
Adam: Right.
Right.
Al: And, and I just like, I felt for him.
Do you know
May: what I mean?
Adam: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Al: I actually think that a lot of people
do feel that kind of, you know, where,
where even kids minister sometimes, like,
how do I speak to both kids and adults?
Adam: Oh yeah, yeah.
Al: Um, youth ministers like these,
none of these people, you know, these
are, I've only got the teenagers like,
but being able to speak meaningfully
and helpfully to, to all ages, I just
think maybe there is some low hanging
fruit for us to kind of, um, to kind
of engage with, with this stuff.
Adam: Oh, I think there absolutely is.
Yeah.
May: So what does some of that
low hanging fruit look like then?
Like, I feel like both of you have
talked about language in particular
as being a key aspect of this.
, Adam: So language is important.
The language.
If, if kids are in the room,
uh, the language should be
accessible to everyone in the room.
And, you know, it's a, principle
of good design that when you,
make something accessible for
everyone, then everybody benefits.
Right.
Um,
Al: does that mean dumbing it down?
Adam: Yeah.
Nine.
Sorry.
Yes, I agree.
That's a good question.
Um, no, it doesn't mean dumbing it down.
Um, but it does mean carefully choosing
the language that you're going to use.
So you make it, Simple but not simplistic.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's like, just before I noticed,
I used the word reticence.
May: Mm-hmm.
Al: Um, you know, I, I had this joke
that that's a 50, a 50 cent word
when you could use just a 10 cent.
Word.
May: Right?
Oh, yes.
Al: you know that's
May: you had to pay for characters in
SMS, is that what you're talking about?
Al: No, I dunno, I'm not really
sure, but, um, oh yeah, I suppose
that's, maybe that's where it's at.
But like, you know, you don't, you
know, you can choose the 10 cent word.
So instead of, you know, there's,
people have, people have a reticence,
um, to have an all age service.
Uh, because of whatever reason, I
could have just said, oh, people
are worried about it, you know?
Yeah.
So it's, it's still, it's still, yeah.
It's like, as you say, it's simple
language, not simplistic language.
I think that's really
Adam: Yeah.
and I remember when I was writing
kid spots, um, I would get my
final script and then I would go
through it once more with an edit.
Can a child who's five
years old understand every
word in this, on this page?
And if they couldn't, then I'd change it.
Mm.
Yeah.
Al: But you are, I, it sounds like
you're not, you're not advocating for
a, say, a service leader to necessarily
kind of get their script and then like
go through with a fine tooth comb.
You're just kind of saying, Hey,
as you plan this, just think
about having more simple language.
Adam: Oh, that's right.
Some people might actually benefit
from going through it with a fine
tooth comb a couple of times.
Yeah.
And then they'd, well just, you
know, like maybe once or twice and
then they go, oh, now I get it.
Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Adam: I've gotta cater for the
youngest ones in the room as well.
Al: Yeah,
Adam: yeah, yeah.
May: So what about if I'm one of those
people that's service seating, um, or
preaching, and I don't have kids, how
do I know what the level of a 5-year-old
is to even know what words they know?
Adam: Oh, what a good question.
And I guess the answer is talk to kids.
Mm-hmm.
So
even if you don't have
children of your own, and that would be
a, a massive advantage in this, in this
space, because you're talking to them
using language they understand every day.
May: Mm-hmm.
Adam: But the church is full of.
People of all ages.
So you can talk to, uh, kids and, and
know how they speak and what's accessible.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so using language that's accessible
is one of the low hanging fruit.
But I would also say, um, something
that's very easy to do is not just talk
to the adults, so actually address the
children who are in the room as well.
So instead of saying, Hey, isn't it great
that the kids are here, you might say.
Hey, we'd like to welcome everyone here
today and children and girls and boys.
It's so good that you are here with us.
A comment like that means you're
talking to the children, not about the
children, and that is very a welcoming.
May: It's
such a subtle
language difference
Adam: actually,
It's so easy.
Yeah.
Al: Yeah.
And, and as an adult in the, in the
room, uh, like that signals very strongly
to me that kids are not just welcome.
Like they're, they're not just here and
something to be tolerated, but they're,
they're, they're, and they're not just
welcome into our space, but this is.
Their space when they're addressed,
just as you might address the
adults, if there's something
specific for, for the adults, right.
And that kind of thing.
But it does, yeah.
As an adult in the room, if I hear, Hey
kids, it's time for whatever, um, or Hey
kids, it's so great that you're here.
I'm hearing Yes, they
are part of the body of
Adam: That's a really
Al: good thing.
Adam: And
Al I've also heard you say,
you know, some time ago,
Al: I'm excited about this.
What, what,
Adam: What did you say?
You were suggesting that a service leader
might say something like, Hey girls
and boys, it's so great that you are
here today because actually we're all
part of the church and when we're just
adults here, we're kind of missing out.
'cause you are so important
to God and you're so
May: important to us.
Adam: And actually, like if we are
having an all age service today,
when we're all together, this is a.
A better kind of, uh, feel for
what it is to be God's church.
'cause we are all together.
Al: Yeah.
There's something about when all of
God's people are together, whether
that is in the diversity of cultures
or whether that's in the diversity of
Adam: right.
Al: There's something about, um, or
all of God's people being together that
is better than when we're segregated.
So good.
Be and part of it's 'cause the,
it's 'cause of the eschatological,
you know, there's another 50 50
cent word, but like, it's the
picture of the new creation, right.
Like that is, that is what it's gonna
be like in heaven is that all of the
differences that cause division will
not cease to exist, but they will cease
to be, , something that cause division.
So we'll have perfect unity in our
diversity in, in the new creation.
So if we can reflect that a little
bit in the way we speak about
our services and speak about our
gatherings, I think that's a good thing.
Adam: Yeah.
And actually that those differences
will make the whole experience
richer for everybody there.
, Al: And kind of in that vein as well,
one of those key moments often, not so
much for all age services, but for those,
those moments that many, many churches
have where the kids are in and then
they're sent out to their kids programs.
, one of the things that I try and
do when I lead the service, I think
is low hanging fruit is just giving
equal weight to whatever the kids
are gonna do when they're sent out.
And whatever, um, the people that are
staying in the building are gonna do,
because what are, what are we doing?
Like where each of us are going to be
hearing from God's word, responding
to it in some way and so on.
And so, you know, I might
say something like, um.
Kids, you're gonna be going to your
kids programs and you know you're gonna
be, um, learning from God's word there.
And for the people that are still
in the room, we're gonna be learning
from God's word here as well.
Now you might speak about it in different
ways, but if you can use the same
language, just gives, it just gives
equal importance to both of the moments.
Adam: And that might result in, you
know, great conversations on the
car, in the car, on the way home.
Um, you know, what did you
learn today, mom or dad?
And well, what did you
learn today in kids' church?
Al: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Totally.
Adam: Yeah.
We're all disciples learning and growing.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
May: So tell us some more
low hanging fruit, Adam.
Adam: Yeah.
Okay.
Well, sometimes you might, in an
all age service, you might have
an occasion where some children
actually contribute to the service.
They may do some prayers with their
family, uh, lead the prayers, or, um,
you might get, uh, a young girl or boy
to read the Bible, or it, it may be done
in, in a, a number of different ways.
Al: So me and my daughter
MCed the service together
once, which was, That's lovely.
Precious.
Adam: Yeah.
How old was she?
Al: Uh, she would've been seven,
Adam: I think.
So.
Great.
So, supposing you ha, there's an
8-year-old girl and she reads the bible.
Now the service leader may, um, with
greatest intentions, um, say, oh,
that was well done, or, good job.
And it's celebrating the quality
of the reading rather than the
ministry that she's just exercised
Al: because it is a
genuine ministry, right?
May: Mm-hmm.
Adam: is a genuine ministry.
So perhaps instead of celebrating
the quality of how well they did,
you could celebrate the contribution
to the body of Christ that this.
Child.
This young girl has just made so, oh,
thank you so much for reading that
and helping us understand God's word.
Then she would walk down from,
you know, the platform thinking.
I've, I've helped, I've served.
Mm-hmm.
And it's been, and I've helped
adults and that That's wonderful.
Al: That is, that is what, that
is what they're doing, right?
Adam: Absolutely.
Al: Yeah.
And so that is what we want them
to take away from that is that
I've been able to contribute to
the life of faith of other people.
Adam: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's Yeah.
May: And I mean, why is it important that
the child recognizes that, do you think?
Adam: Well, I think That kind of
inclusive, celebrating language
that values the child will only,
give them the desire to do
it again and to serve again.
so rather than just making it
performative, it's putting the tasks
they've just done in the, in the.
In the realm of ministry.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I wanna encourage
kids to serve and do ministry.
Al: and I think like, I mean
there, there's not really
anyone else that we might say,
you know, there's not, there's not
really many other brothers and sisters
in Christ who we would maybe say,
oh, you don't need to do anything.
You know, you don't need to serve, you
don't need to be involved in any kind of
Adam: So True.
Yeah.
Al: And um, and yes, we need to be aware
of, um, of developmental stages and
there's, you know, there's certain things
that are more appropriate for someone
who's older to do and that kind of thing,
just 'cause of developmental capacity.
And yet we, we really do want to encourage
our, our, the kids in our churches,
that they are servants as well, like,
that they serve the body of Christ.
They're part of it.
They're full members
of the body of Christ.
And so I just think that that's,
you know, when you, when you
celebrate the contribution.
Somebody has made the ministry
that they've done rather than,
you know, the quality of the task
that they, that they have done.
And you may well praise them
for the quality of the task.
Maybe not the service leader.
Like, oh, that was very well done, maybe
you might after the service, right?
You know, someone might go, oh, you
read that so well, thank you so much.
There's nothing wrong with actually
saying, yeah, you did a good job.
Like, that's good to know as well.
But to frame it in that kind of, that
it is a ministry that you've done
and you've actually significantly
contributed to the body of Christ here.
I think it's huge.
Adam: Ah, that is, Hey, can I ask you, Al
did, um, when you celebrate, when you, uh,
did the service with your daughter, um.
Has anything happened since then?
Like has she, uh, wanted to do more or,
Al: yeah.
Well, I mean, um, that particular,
I mean, yeah, that particular
daughter is, is pretty, um, keen
to serve in lots of different,
Adam: Okay.
Al: okay.
And that's partly because, and so when,
when she, when we did that together.
You know what the number one
comment was after the service was
like, you did so well, you spoke so
Adam: well.
Right.
Al: Which is, again, I
don't wanna poo poo that.
Like, I, I, I really, I, I, I
think that that's really genuine.
It came from a really good place.
Um, but I did kind of just make the mental
note of, you know what, I wanna praise
Heidi for the contribution she made.
That she helped people to feel welcome.
She helped kids particularly to feel
part of things and that kind of thing.
Adam: Yeah.
Al: Um.
But, um, yeah, I think just the
particular nature of that child, like
she's, she's pretty enthusiastic about
things and I think the opportunity
that she had and the reinforcement
that it was a good thing, I think has,
has propelled her, um, to, to wanna do
other things and that kind of thing.
So she's.
Adam: Great.
Al: She might sometimes, um, help
with craft in the, in kids' church
or she, um, she's certainly very
active in, um, helping to, helping
with like some of the younger
May: kids
and that kind of
Al: thing.
So in a CR style, she doesn't get a formal
role in the, but I think she does see
those things as service, which is a really
Adam: Oh, that's lovely.
May: That's lovely.
Yeah.
Yeah, And I mean, those moments really
are, um, teaching moments in a way
from what you're saying because it
is teaching the kids about the way
that they contribute and um, also.
Reminding the congregation
less about, um, consumerism.
Mm-hmm.
Like it's teaching those kids
rather than being consumers that
they're actually contributing Yeah.
Um, to the church as a whole as well.
Yeah.
Um, which is a positive thing.
Um, and just thinking
about if I'm a preacher.
Yep.
The concept of, we were talking a little
bit earlier about a bit of anxiety around
what it could look like to have kids
in the service and even being a very
proficient, sorry, that's another 50 cent
word, being a very good, um, communicator.
Could still mean that the
idea of preaching with kids
in the room is quite daunting.
Um, so when we think about low
hanging fruit, having kids in service,
what does that look like when it
comes to preaching, do you think?
Al: Well, I think the number one
thing is like a whole bunch of the
things that we've already talked
May: about.
So the
Al: language that is used by the
service leaders or by people doing
announcements or whoever it is, um,
that language is already setting up
that the kids are welcome and part
of things and that kind of thing.
I think that's a really, really key thing.
Um, and then I think having the attitude
of it, like, what, what do you want
for the kids in the room, like mm-hmm.
Um, what's your goal for
them in an all edge service?
I, I hope that we can encourage people,
that it is possible to engage kids.
Um, and so I wonder if like,
first of all, like the, the hope
is more than to keep them busy.
Um, but actually to engage them in
Adam: the book.
Yeah.
Not just coloring in,
Al: Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so I think like, I think having
those two things in place, so some of the
other things we've talked about and then
the, um, the kind of goal of engagement.
I, I think there are, there is some.
Like not too difficult stuff that
we can do as preachers to, um, make
it palatable for an all age service.
Number one.
Adam, you've already
talked about language.
I think that applies
Adam: Yeah.
For
Al: preaching as well, right?
Um, my view, and Adam, you
might, I can get your impression.
My view is that you don't need to,
um, kind of make it a kid's sermon.
Even if kids are in the room.
Adam: Right.
Al: Um, I think what is key though
is that you give kids multiple access
points and you communicate to them
that you are actually expecting
and hoping that they will engage.
May: Mm-hmm.
Al: So what that might look like is
if you've got a sermon sheet for kids,
um, which will have various different
kind of, uh, age and stage capacity.
So it might be, you know, that there's
an opportunity to draw for some it
might be, um, some kind of written
responses for some that are older.
Uh, there might be a slot for you to
put The Bible passage might be some
specific questions that will be answered
during the sermon, that kind of thing.
Hmm, I think that's a
really, really good thing.
That's only really as useful
as the degree to which the
preacher like brings light to it.
Okay.
Refers to it.
Refers to it.
Adam: yeah.
Right.
Al: So when I'm preaching in an
all age service, um, I will try to
make the language accessible, but
I will also hold up the service
sheet, so the, the sermon outline.
Um, and I'll say, alright, if you've
got one of these, hold it up in the air.
Um, and then invariably a couple of
adults will hold it up in the air as
well, which is a really nice moment.
But there's something there
that the kids have got.
And I'll say, I'm gonna, we're gonna, um,
you know, this is, this is here for you
to be able to engage with this sermon.
Um, and so there'll be little
opportunities and I'll refer
to it at, at different times.
Um, but just so you've got it there,
and then along the way, I will.
Say things like, oh, you know,
there's a slot there for, um,
for writing down the passage.
Well, the passage is, you
know, mark chapter two.
You know, um, now's a good time to write
it, and I'll just sort of say that now
you don't have to do it in a kid way,
like, like that, like I've sort of, you
know, whispering you to the microphone
May: and, mm-hmm.
Al: you can just say, and kids, there's
an opportunity if you write that down now.
And then as you kind of answer some
of those questions along the way that,
uh, are in that sermon sheet, I think
again, referring to it like mm-hmm.
I think preachers can think that if
I break up the flow of my sermon by
saying you might wanna write that
down, that that's gonna be problematic.
I don't think it's problematic
for adults, and I don't think
it's problematic for kids.
Actually.
It points to the structure of the sermon
that you've given and you've given
the kids and access point to the stuff
that you want them to engage with.
You've made it clear
May: Mm-hmm.
Adam: You've also just given the adults
a little bit of a brain break, um, as
you've spoken to the children and, um,
asked them to do this particular thing.
And then that means they'll
probably concentrate a little
bit better in the next part.
Yeah,
May: Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam: yeah, yeah.
Al: Um, uh, another, another piece
of long low hanging fruit, I think
with preaching is if you can give
a little bit of a challenge to the
kids in the room at the start of
your, um, before you start preaching.
So an example, um, that I did when I was.
Preaching on, um, I think
it's Mark chapter two.
Um, the parable of the paralytic.
It's not the parable.
It is the paralytic man.
Adam: That's right.
Mark two.
Yep.
Yep.
Al: Um, and my big idea was, you know,
something about our greatest, our
greatest need is forgiveness of sin.
And so I said to the, I said to the
room, now I have counted the number
of times that I've said need in
this service, uh, in this sermon.
And so what I want you to do is
tally it up and you can come to me
at the end of the end of the service
and let me know how many you got.
And um, and so it was just a little bit
of a challenge to keep a certain portion
of the kind of kid age bracket engaged.
Um, and so I had a multiple people
come to me and say, you know,
oh, I had 127, or whatever it
Adam: was.
Al: Um, so it's just another little,
like, just a little bit of a challenge.
I didn't have a prize.
Like I didn't, I didn't
Adam: yeah, it's a high five from Al.
Yeah.
It's like
Al: a That's well done.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam: can I ask why you
chose that word need?
Yeah.
I'm curious.
Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, because the big idea of my,
of that particular sermon was our
greatest need is forgiveness of
Adam: Right.
Al: Um, that, you know, that really
beautiful story of Jesus identifying
that his need was more than just, um,
healing that actually his greatest
need was, um, for forgiveness.
And so I thought, well, that particular
word is gonna help draw attention
to the, um, the big idea, right?
And so if they're listening,
um, along the way, well that's
a, that's a, a good way for
Adam: to Yeah.
And a nice little tag
for parents to pick up
Al: Yes.
Adam: As they talk to their children
about that passage later on.
Yeah.
May: Yeah.
I particularly like that it was about
the engagement in the teaching and the
big idea rather than just busyness,
Al: wasn't just to keep them busy.
May: It is so easy to say, just see
how many times I say and in this
sentence, um, but yeah, to actually put
that thought in, to go, this is gonna
draw their attention to the big idea.
Yeah.
Super helpful.
Adam: Yeah.
Do you reckon making a sermon visual
in some way is also a help to children?
May: Yeah.
I actually feel like, Adam,
you are the guru on visuals.
Yeah.
Why you, not me?
So, can we throw that
question back to you?
Tell us about visuals with kids
Adam: Look, I, I just
know that, for children.
Sometimes if it's just an.
Auditory kind of information.
And, and that's, that's your medium.
They can tune out and, so the
more senses that you engage with
children, the more engaging it is.
Um, and as we get older, we
become more and more used to
just processing information.
Auditorially, but, uh, children are
pretty visual, so, You know, not
every sermon lends itself necessarily
to visuals, but they may, it just,
at the very least, it might just
be a couple of words on the screen,
May: Mm-hmm.
Adam: um, that can help them
go, oh, yeah, that's the point.
And
Al: Yeah, well, even just the,
the permanence of something
that's appearing on a screen.
So like, say, say with my, my, you know,
say the first point was something to
do with, you know, our greatest need.
Like even just having the word
need there, it focuses like,
this is what we're talking about.
That kind of thing.
Yeah.
Adam: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Al: I reckon as well, like there,
you know, apart from visuals,
which are a really helpful.
Um, way to engage.
Like, I think there's other kind of little
moments that you might be able to put
in to also kind of again, um, engage.
So like, you know, even just throwing to
the, to the congregation, you know, um,
hey, we've just talked about this thing,
you know, here's one question that's gonna
require a two or three word response.
Turn to the person next to
you, and then, you know.
Just talk about it for a moment and then
count down from 10, say 10, 9, 8, 7.
I wonder what you said.
This is what I thought,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
You don't need to necessarily
get a great deal of feedback.
You can remembering this
is a low hanging fruit,
so um, yes, you absolutely can do an
interactive kind of piece where you get.
Opinions from this person
and that person, that person.
But that requires greater skill and
developing that skill of kind of
managing the room in that setting, right?
But you can just go talk
to the person next to you.
I wonder what you, and then.
Count down from 10.
And then I wonder what you said.
This is what I said, this
is what I was thinking.
Yeah.
Um, it's just a moment to kind of engage
people, um, and that kind of thing.
There's, there's lots of ways you can
kind of just break it up and engage
things, engage people a little bit.
Adam: That's so good because
then they're not just hearing and
hearing and hearing, but they're
actually thinking and then doing.
Al: Yeah.
Adam: yeah.
So good.
May: Yeah.
I think it also makes me think, as
you guys were talking about preaching
in particular, um, I think of.
Developmentally appropriate
stuff for kids and whether,
oh, there might be
Okay.
So I've gotta be quick.
Um, thinking about preaching with
kids, I think it's been really helpful
to hear you guys talk about different
ways of sort of breaking up the sermon.
Because in my head I think about,
you know, a 5-year-old, it's about
a five minute attention span, right?
6-year-old, six minute attention span.
A sermon goes for 22 minutes or more if.
Thinking about a typical
Sydney Anglican sermon.
Um, and so it can be quite
a time for a 5-year-old.
Um, and so I think, oh, does that
mean the preacher needs to cut down
their sermon and make it really short?
But I guess what you guys are
saying is no, because you have
those different engagement points.
Al: Um, yeah, like I, I act, I actually
think both are on the table, right?
So the idea of potentially
making your message a little
bit shorter that's on the table.
Um, I don't think it's an absolute
necessity, but I do think that, um,
if you are not going to make it a
five minute piece, and I think, I
think, you know, like you can do that.
There are, there's options, but if,
if it's gonna be a 20 minute sermon.
I think the key is just that multiple
access points for kids to reengage.
Um, and I think you know, if you,
if you want them to engage, you've
actually gotta ask them to engage.
I think you've actually gotta kind
of make it clear, make it direct, and
kind of say, okay, kids, this is what I
was, you know, this is what I'm saying.
Now it's time to, do you know what I mean?
May: Yeah.
Dress them directly.
Adam: That
can totally work.
Yeah.
Like I, I, I learned a long time
ago to do the, the quick sketching,
um, from legends like Keith Thompson
and Owen Shelly at su and, and.
And then I tried it and I, I got a 20
minute, my first attempt was to do a 20
minute talk at an education week assembly.
May: Mm-hmm.
Adam: And he said, when you turn the
page over and it's just blank, and
then you start drawing you can reengage
someone for the next five minutes.
Mm.
And then.
Make your point.
And just as we're talking, I'm thinking,
oh, this would be a good, good way.
If you actually had a conversation and,
and said, or turn to the person next
to you and, you know, adult and a child
and talk about this, what do you think?
And then you could, then
you flip the page again.
Al: like, it's like turning the page.
Adam: You reset.
Yeah.
And so that's how you can, you know,
with four or five pages you can
reset, um, people's concentration.
May: Mm-hmm.
yeah.
So a three point sermon,
there's easy turning page
Adam: right?
Right.
There can be, yeah.
May: Yeah.
Low hanging fruit there.
Adam: Yeah.
May: Is
there anything we haven't touched on?
Al: Sort of back on the services thing.
Like in the language thing, , it's like
over the course of year, like, it's not
like you need to necessarily specifically
engage the kids every single week,
but over the course of a term wanna
make sure that, the vibe, the feels
is that they are welcome, so, right.
Adam: right.
Right.
Al: You know, even if you don't
specifically say, Hey kids,
we're so glad that you are here.
but over the course of a term, if you
haven't mentioned the kids at all.
Then maybe that's a problem.
Do
May: you know what I mean?
Adam: mm
May: Because I guess it's kind of like
any, any new people group that might come.
To the service.
Like if, if for some reason your
local town had an influx of refugees,
or like in Wollongong, there's a
particular time of year where they
have an influx of international
Adam: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
May: Um,
and so there is an aspect of a
consciousness of there's actually
people who aren't always in the room.
In the room and we wanna
make them feel welcome.
Um, and at home here.
So not pointing them out all
the time means you're not making
them feel awkward and othered.
Yeah.
Um,
Al: but never talking ne never
mentioning them or saying hello
to them or whatever like that also
is their value.
Yeah.
May: Yeah.
Their presence in that sense.
Yeah.
Well, thanks guys.
Um, for chatting to us today
about low hanging fruit with
having kids in the service.
Um, there's some great things that have
come out of our chats, like language
being really a huge aspect of how we're
inviting others in to our thinking.
also in preaching, thinking
about sermon notes or challenges.
Referring to the sermon notes throughout
what you're preaching and having those
moments that actually allows, , the
preacher and the congregation to be
reengaged those page turning moments.
, All having the focus on the teaching and
rather than just keeping people busy.
Adam: Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
And also talking to
the kids, not about the
May: Yeah, Well, thanks
guys for joining us.
Adam: Hey, it's been a pleasure.
Al: What a time.
Adam: See ya.