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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:17] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to [00:00:25] support, inspire, and empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm. Your host, Julie Liddell, and today I am chatting to Lee Pace and David Anderson. Lee is Deputy head teacher at James Bateman Middle School, part of the Creative Learning Partnership Trust with over two decades in education.
[00:00:43] He began teaching in the primary sector in 2002 before moving to middle schools in 2012. [00:00:50] He has a strong interest in an evidence-informed practice and is currently exploring its implementation in schools. As part of his MBA Research, Lee is co-authoring fear. It tells lies with David Anderson, which he can't wait to be published.
[00:01:04] He's passionate about personal growth, learning from failure, and increasingly proud to celebrate the wins along the way. Above all, Lee is a proud dad, David [00:01:15] Anderson, also known as Pep the Poet is a celebrated poet and wellbeing champion dedicated to helping individuals overcome self-centered fear and anxiety through the transformative power of poetry.
[00:01:27] His work is divided into two key areas in spite. During poetry workshops for children that nurture creativity and confidence and impactful keynote presentations for adults delivered in schools, universities, and [00:01:40] corporate settings. With all the 25 years of experience in education and a personal journey through mental health challenges and overcoming addiction, Pep combines heartfelt storytelling with practical strategies to foster emotional resilience and personal growth.
[00:01:54] Pep's mission is to scatter sunshine, one poem at a time. Boring audiences to live with greater confidence and gratitude. This episode [00:02:05] really was a joy to record. It was an inspiring, humorous and down to earth discussion of wellbeing around some of the themes covered in Lee and David's forthcoming book.
[00:02:15] In this episode, we discuss fear, imposter syndrome, gratitude, and controlling the controllables, as well as train spotting, ironing, and hula hoops. Enjoy.[00:02:30]
[00:02:31] Hi Lee and David, many thanks for joining us today. Good to meet you. And you. This is a first for me interviewing two people together, what could possibly go wrong. Um, so I'm absolutely delighted that you've joined us here this afternoon. Lee, your deputy head at the James Bate. School and David a, a celebrated poet and a [00:02:55] wellbeing champion.
[00:02:56] So I'm sure we'll hear a little bit more how you've kind of come together and connected. And we're gonna talk a little bit about the book that you're in the middle of co-authoring. But I wonder if we could start maybe hearing just a little bit more about your backgrounds, whether that's professional or, or personally.
[00:03:15] I wonder to, could I come to you first? So, so we go with professional first. [00:03:20] So I've been in education for 23 years nearly now. So I did my train at Abstra University. I only chose there because three universities turned me down. So that was the fourth one. And they just let me in, which was really good.
[00:03:34] And I started, my first job was at, uh, a primary school in Huntington Primary school. And, and that's where I met David, uh, as MQ ts weren't we at the time? [00:03:45] Yeah. So, but uh, I was quite cool then though. I was 26 and cool. And David was 38 and he seemed really old to me. And now I'm 49. I'm thinking, oh dear, I've been in this, this game a long time.
[00:03:56] So I spent 10 years in the primary sector. Then I moved to middle school 13 years ago, James Bateman Middle School, which is part of the Creative Learning Partnership Trust. I thought I'd get that in, and I did check with [00:04:10] my CEO that he, he, he says, yes. Give us a mention if that's okay. My big passion, I suppose, is away from what we're gonna talk about now, I suppose, is evidence and form practice and research and things like that.
[00:04:22] So I'm really into that. Personally, I've been married, divorced, and I have a daughter, so I, I always felt with David on this journey that I was always catching up. He seemed to, he seemed to know well, being [00:04:35] inside out, I didn't really know. And then through married, divorced, and bringing up a daughter. You see, you, you, I've caught up really, really quickly as well.
[00:04:43] And also, the other thing, I like to run, I've done 11 marathons and, uh, I think when I look back on my marathon journey, which I might talk about a little bit more, it's, it's a great, uh, analogy for life running a marathon and training for it as well. [00:05:00] So I think it changes you, it really does change you doing things like that.
[00:05:03] So. Yeah, that's a bit about me. I'm sure more will come out throughout the podcast. Absolutely. Thanks Lee. David, over to you. I'm gonna go the other way around. I wanna start with just from the beginning. 'cause that's where I start from. I was born in Scotland at SRE in Scotland in 1963 and we moved out, came down to Rouge in Staffordshire.
[00:05:24] Part, the, the [00:05:25] coal fields. It was, um, the, the population in my little town, I believe in 1960 was 2000. By 1970 it was 20,000. And it, there was big estates built for the Scots, the Jordy's, the Irish, the Welsh, just the whole cacophony languages and people. And it was great. Um, I didn't do very well at school.
[00:05:45] I was. Billy Conley said that was a stupid bit saveable. I dunno, I [00:05:50] dunno what that meant, but I I it wasn't, yeah, the Catholic education system of the 1960s and seventies, I didn't really get it. They were great, but I didn't get much from it. Um, I left school. No qualifications. Well, I had two CSE grade four.
[00:06:05] Then I became a butcher, a welder, a a coal miner. Um, I was a barman, a youth worker. And then at 27 I got a job in a [00:06:15] special, what was called a special school. It was a school for children with communicational difficulties and the school for children with autism, the on the autistic spectrum disorder. And I did that for a couple of years.
[00:06:25] Then I went to work for the social services, working with adults who learning disabilities. Then a friend of mine, Tony, said to me one day, I was 33 at the time. Do us a favor, Dave. Go away for four years. Get a degree in, teach you my school. And I did. I came out and I said to my [00:06:40] wife, I said, I'm gonna give my job up.
[00:06:42] And we had, we'd got a little baby and a, a mortgage and, and she said, what you, she said, whatcha you gonna do? So I'm going to become a teacher. Dave, you can't spell. And I've, I've now got a history degree. I became a teacher. I've written five books and I still can't spell, but that's what I did. And then I, I became, that's when I, I, I met Lee Huntington primary.
[00:07:03] I was only there for two years. [00:07:05] Then I went to a beautiful little school at St. Christopher's in Cosell, and I was there for 16, 17 years, for the last five years, the deputy. But then sadly, um. Seven years ago, it all got on top of me. And, um, I was off work with a, I can only describe as a mental breakdown, just full of anxiety, fear, depression, and, um.
[00:07:24] I decided, then I said to my wife again, I'm going to have another change now. Oh my goodness. And [00:07:30] for those that are old enough, remember it's stars in their eyes. Um, so to my, to my tonight, Matthew, what you going to? Well, tonight, Paula, I'm going to be a poet, and she, oh my goodness. So I've written five poetry collections for schools and I've, I've now visited 173 different schools up and down the country, 225 workshops.
[00:07:50] Just scattering sunshine. One poem at a time, and I'll, I might do a couple for you [00:07:55] later, but a lot of them, the poems are done in regional accents. Yeah. And then the other thing I've done is, what we'll talk about is I deliver keynotes, uh, talking about self-centered fear and anxiety and the whole.
[00:08:07] Message was fatals Lies, which, which we'll explore about later, more about later. So it's a parted history of David Anderson. So thank you so much, David. What a great story. And you know, it's interesting that I speak to many [00:08:20] people, um, who go on to work in schools who, who possibly didn't have the best experience themselves.
[00:08:26] Um, and I think there's something about wanting to kind of change that isn't there for the kind of forthcoming generations. It's a theme that seems to come up a lot. With a lot of our guests, but yeah, definitely a bit of the stars in stars in their eyes. Uh, potted history there. David, I'm gonna move on to the book in a minute, but I, David, can I just stay with you and, and your [00:08:45] poetry just for a moment.
[00:08:46] I'm an avid reader of poetry. I love poetry. Do you think there's a link between poetry and wellbeing? What, what do you see that link as being Absolutely one of my favorite poets. I, I'd always love to sort of, you know. Like quote Keats and different people. One of my favorite poems was Pam. I mean, you can remember Pam was, I love Pam.
[00:09:05] Me, she was on my inspiration. There was, I remember there's a guy called Max Boyce who was a Welsh [00:09:10] singer, Billy Conley, Paul McCartney. Dolly Parton is one of the greatest poets, and they were the poets that spoke to me. But, um, but Pamir said one of her books said. I, I'm not a poet. All I do is I manipulate words for comedic effect.
[00:09:25] But all I try and do, because some of my poems are quite, uh, deep and a lot of them are very silly and, and very, very silly, which we'll, I'll share with you later, but [00:09:35] my idea of poetry is, is the manipulation of words for emotional effect. And you can make people laugh, cry, think, and a lot of my poems are based around mental, to me poetry quite literally saved my life.
[00:09:48] I was in a very, very dark place, and today I am not, and, and I can't, I can't express the, the gratitude I have for poetry and spoken word. Um, I just love it and yeah, there's a [00:10:00] fantastic link between the two. Yeah, I think so. I think there's two, two elements, isn't it? And it's very much like music. There's the writing of it and the catharsis and ex, you know, and exploring your own emotions is one side of it, but as a reader, the other side is that people put in words to emotions that are difficult to express, you know, and, and like, you know, and, and that's what I see poetry as.
[00:10:21] I think it can be a beautiful vehicle, you know, in terms of [00:10:25] wellbeing, and I'm sure we'll come back to the poetry in a minute. So the book that you are writing together, then Fear Tells Lies and it's currently a work in progress. But what was the motivation behind writing the book? David's always talked about fear tells lies, and I've known him so it's so that that line, which is really, obviously the title of the book has always been there, but I [00:10:50] remember.
[00:10:50] I think you just, YouTube just talked about poetry as ark and inspiration for a while being, and I think people need to find inspiration from, from everywhere. And one of the things I didn't say in my instructions are I'm a train spotter, so I, I that's, you know, put me on a station with a cup of tea, platform nine clap and junction.
[00:11:06] And I'm really, really quite happy. And one of the, one of the fathers of train of railways or. Engineering [00:11:15] itself as Isenberg Kingdom bru now. And I read a lot about him. And some years ago, uh, I was reading one of his diaries. If you go on to, uh, the Bruno Museum, there's some, uh, some, some archive for some archive diaries there.
[00:11:29] And he took, there's one, one incident when he was injured, he was building a tunnel under the. River Thames and it flooded and he was, he was put in hospital for quite some [00:11:40] time, I think with some sort of lung condition. And he was really getting frustrated and he took, when he described his frustration as building castles in the sky.
[00:11:48] So in his head he was building things, but he knew he couldn't do anything about it 'cause he was hospitalized. And I thought that's what people do. People go to bed at night with dreams or they, they wander around with dreams in their head of what they could do. They know their own potential, but they, they go around [00:12:05] constantly building castles in the sky.
[00:12:06] So it's not happening, it's really not happening for all them. And that was original title for the book that was like the work in title Castles in the Sky, because I think people waste their talent so much. Yeah. And that's, that's what, that was the inspiration for me that. Yeah, we, we can all do so much better, whatever we believe in ourselves a little bit.
[00:12:27] So that was, that was where it came from for me really. But I [00:12:30] think there's something in that Lee as well, isn't there? That, and you were right to pick up on that, that north size fits all with wellbeing. If we just go back to you as a train spotter, David and I love poetry, I love music. Um, whatever that looks like, it's about finding your thing.
[00:12:44] That can be a useful tool and, and going back to it, isn't it? And using it. So, sorry David, your inspiration for writing the book then I shared with you earlier. As I grew up, I've [00:12:55] got four big sisters. I was the only boy in the youngest. I was on a tough counselor state and you could either be a, a good fighter, which I wasn't.
[00:13:03] Um, you have to be you. You could be good at sport, which I wasn't. My dad was David Anderson. I was David Anderson. But to save any confusion, I was always known by my middle name. My middle name is Tracy, so I was a little, and back in the sixties, Tracy was predominantly a [00:13:20] girl's name. So I was a little overweight lad, four big sisters, a mommy's boy, a complete wimp running around with a girl's name.
[00:13:29] I had, I had bully me, written all over me, and, and there was a lot of bullies, but I found that my armor was, was humor. And I could, I could make people laugh, but that gr that straight away from the ear of an early age. I developed masks when I, I didn't know who I [00:13:45] met you or you've got books. You must be intelligent.
[00:13:47] I put me intelligent mask on. You are a tough guy. Put me. So, I, I didn't, I never knew who I was and I realized there's an older man now. I've been riddled with fear all my life and one thing helped me cope with it is, is alcohol. I've been a recovering alcoholic for the last 25 years, and I'm a proud member of Alcoholics Anonymous and.
[00:14:06] I attend meetings and I have sponsees, and I have a, you know, it saved my [00:14:10] life. But I was in a meeting one day and there was a lady, and she'd just come out with the term, she says, you know what it's like fair tells lies, not fair. Tells lies. That's exactly what my life fear. And anybody who's listening, you know, I wanna open that coffee shop.
[00:14:25] You can't. Or you'll go outta business. I could, I could become a teacher. And you, I was a ta, became a teacher, or no, you're not clever enough. No. 'cause that voice is side of the head and it's [00:14:35] fear. And he tells lies and you've got to ignore it. So, um, yeah, so that, that, that was the title from it. And it's like Lisa said about castles in the sky.
[00:14:44] And I think the one thing that unites us, we both, we want people to become the best version of themselves as they can be. Yeah. I think being in education for 23 years, what I've seen, you know, I've been in schools where we, we've gone to special measures and it's destroyed, had teachers. Mm-hmm. I've also been in [00:15:00] schools where we've been incredibly successful and you know, you see the incredible highs, the incredible lows.
[00:15:06] I mean, one of the things I still is the imposter syndrome of teachers. And never think they're good enough. And, and I try and challenge this 'cause I think it's very deep in the DNA of of education and I'm not quite sure why. 'cause it's quite easy to blame or blame you. You can blame officer, you can [00:15:25] blame DFE, but I think sometimes you have to take that responsibility for yourself.
[00:15:28] And one of the challenges I I say to teachers is Imagine, imagine you are gonna go to the dentist. Would you want the dentist to believe in themselves when they're taking the tooth out in that now, but you are in, you are in, you are in front of a class of 25 students. They need you to believe in yourself.
[00:15:48] And there's, there's a lot [00:15:50] of layers there. 'cause it's the, the culture of the school. And I'm really lucky that I work in a school where the culture's amazing and for trust, where the culture's amazing. But I also know from LinkedIn posts and the amount of people that contact me, that's not always the case.
[00:16:05] They're told they're not good enough. They're told they need to be better all of the time. So I think from an education point of view, that's also the inspiration for the book [00:16:15] as well to one, put things in into perspective. Also, yeah, to to believe in yourself. And you know, I look at my career and I've gone through, I only off Teds, I've taught thousands of thousands of students, sometimes incredibly successfully, sometimes not.
[00:16:31] Sometimes I felt great about my job. Sometimes I'm not. When I'm here. In 2025 and I've made it. Well, that's an incredible achievement in [00:16:40] itself. And sometimes we don't start, we, we never think about it like that, but we, you know, teachers who've been in in education for years have come through so much.
[00:16:48] They should be really proud of that. Yeah, absolutely. And again, it is one of those things that comes up regularly. I think there's a lot of people walking around with that. Inner critic that's telling them, you know, you're not good enough. Somebody's gonna find you out. You don't belong here. Or, you know, everybody else is coping.
[00:17:04] There's [00:17:05] only you. It's not managing. And, and I think you're right, I think it is very common in amongst education staff for a variety of reasons. And also because we are educators. Like, we always know that there's a better version of ourselves somewhere that, that we can all learn more and do more. And I think sometimes that is a great thing.
[00:17:24] But sometimes it can be also something that we. Can then use to kind of criticize ourselves [00:17:30] against, isn't it anything you wanted to add about imposter syndrome or Leonard? We're both living in Stafford, but I, I'm from the sort of south of the county in Lees from the north, so it takes about an an hour to get here.
[00:17:41] And we spoke on the way up in the car, we were talking about imposter syndrome. I'm absolutely riddled with it to, to the very core. But Lee, and it's not an arrogance my wife described Lee. She does love him. Paula, I, I mentioned, I mentioned Paula, [00:17:55] but um. Said, she said Lee, and she meant it in a lovely way.
[00:17:59] She says, I love Lee. He's, he's got like an assured arrogance about him and it, she didn't mean it as an insult, but But in your very confident in schools, aren't you? I am, yeah. And I think, well. I believe I'm a great teacher, but give, if, if parents are listening to this and they, I know I have 25 of their students for maths on a, on a Monday afternoon lesson four, do they [00:18:20] want to hear me saying, no, I'm, I don't think I'm really that good at teaching maths.
[00:18:24] Or do they want me to hear, I'm a great teacher of maths. Yeah. I think that's what they prefer to hear. That's why, and that's what I honestly feel. But when I always, I know I'm not a great teacher, but I always needed that external, um, validation. Ofsted had to tell me it was an a, a a, they came. The last two Ofsted we had, I was deemed to be [00:18:45] an outstanding practitioner.
[00:18:46] We don't talk about, talk about the first one. They nearly failed me, but that was, that was a long time ago, Lee. But the last two, when I'd learned my craft, I was an outstanding teacher and I still am an outstanding teacher. But that doesn't roll off my tongue easily. 'cause I'm thinking to people who do you think you are?
[00:19:02] Listen to him. And it's that inner critic where you, you can stand up and you're quite, you're quite confident saying that I have to, I have to [00:19:10] trick myself into believing it. Um, yeah, but, but I need, like, I need some good, and they've probably got, look, no, I've got teachers listen to that. They'll need like a, a good lesson observation or they'll need parents to tell them, or they'll need governors or they'll need officer to come and, but you've always said be before.
[00:19:26] Alright. Something wants. I was off Ted endorsed. You mean you're not off Ted endorsed. You're a good teacher. And it was, you taught me you don't have to have osted to tell [00:19:35] you you're good. Yeah. If, if the two tell you you're good, it's great. But I always needed that external validation. I think the best teachers just want to be better.
[00:19:43] But, and, but I think going back to imposter syndrome, one of, one of it, one of imposter syndrome's, Sharpies tools is perfectionism. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You, you be better, but you'll never be perfect. And I, I just, I'm just completely over that. I'm never gonna be a perfect teacher and the main [00:20:00] reason, 'cause I have no idea what that looks like.
[00:20:02] I've read research for 23 years. That's the exciting bit. And I, I'm a big fan of Dylan, William and I, I've watching one of his speeches on YouTube. That's what I do on, I, when I'm mining, I watch speeches. I found the Dylan William, professor Brian Cox Rock and roll, but I know, yeah, that's, that's how I roll in 49.
[00:20:21] It wasn't allowing us 26 train spotting And [00:20:25] Dylan Williams while you're riding Yeah. And it, but he said, and I think. If you have to really be careful the contact you say, won't you realize we'll never be good enough. That's a huge monkey off her back. Yeah, because it's okay not to be good enough.
[00:20:37] Complete acceptance. 'cause you can always get better. That's the strive for not, you've got to do this. You've got to ask that question. You've got to get, you've got to take this on the list. When I last observations, I go with a [00:20:50] blank sheet. And, and just write down what I observe. It's that good enough hypothesis, isn't it?
[00:20:55] It's that acceptance. The good is good enough. Um, I think, yeah. And you're absolutely right around that perfectionist, feeding into that inner critic. So I know that that's one of the chapters that you explore in the book, one of the themes that you are explore in the book. How then, or do you have any tools then?
[00:21:12] So David, you said you sort of re require [00:21:15] quite a lot of external validation to kind of quiet that voice if you like. What are some. Of your techniques that you would advocate or that you find useful to kind of call out those demons when, when those self-sabotaging thoughts kind of creep in? Is there any tools you use or you would, you know, as I say, advocate?
[00:21:36] Yeah. One thing I would say is in terms of that you have to work at it. [00:21:40] So it, it's monitoring and I, I lost a great podcast by Johnny Will. It's knowing when it's happening. Know when you don't feel like that. And also knowing it's just a feeling. So it's what the me what is the message on that feeling? So I don't feel good enough?
[00:21:55] What's that telling me? Where's that feeling come from? So I, I mean, I go back to when I ran my first marathon and I was, uh, I remember I sitting in [00:22:05] Trentham GOs and staff, which are waiting for the start, and I didn't feel good enough even though I'd done all the training. But I think sometimes you just have to push through it as well and just do it and be really brave.
[00:22:16] And that's hard in itself. Um, as part of my 12 step program, one of the, the key for me as a practice gratitude and, and what, and, and I know it's in the mindfulness movement, it's a big thing, gratitude, but the. The big book of [00:22:30] Alcoholics Anonymous was written in 1935, and it talks about a grateful heart.
[00:22:34] It, it's hard to be, it's hard to be resentful and grateful at the side at the same time, it's almost impossible. So what I tend to do is I try and do it daily, but I, I average about three or four times a week. I write, I physically write a gratitude list. And I'll start, uh, number one now, the, the same, the top three are always the same, and this is where Lee and I differ.
[00:22:54] We've been best friends [00:22:55] for 23 years and we are polar opposites in almost everything we do. Apart from the, the, the book that, you know, our thinking. But, um, I was brought up as a, as a Christian, as a god in, in life that I speak to on a daily basis. Lee's almost a confirmed atheist. So, you know, so my, my gratitude list, the, the top one is always God.
[00:23:15] The next one, Dan is AA in the fellow. The next one, the hand is my 25 [00:23:20] years sober. Then I have my wife, and so we said, oh, your wife's fourth. I said, yeah, because without those top three, if you imagine if you turned it on its head, those three are the foundations that the whole of my life's built on. So it's, it's God, AA in the fellowship.
[00:23:34] My 25 years, my wife. My son, Ryan, his girlfriend, uh, Ryan, El, uh, Leo and Jody. Mother. Son. And then it's my sisters, my family, my [00:23:45] extended friends, my CPU, my Close Protection Unit, which I have eight friends that look after, which we'll talk about. And then I go down, my sponsor, my pons, but then I go down to the fact that I can hear you.
[00:23:56] I, I can see you on the screen here. I can hear you. I can smell that any day you wake up, that toothache is a good day to be grateful. You know what I mean? Any day you haven't, you know when you got little paper cut in your finger and you bang it all this time, any day [00:24:10] you haven't got a paper cut, it's a good day to be grateful.
[00:24:12] I'm grateful for running water. I'm grateful for my car. I'm grateful and I can go on and on and, but it's, and I think the more you're grateful, the more you get to be grateful for. 'cause many of us like, oh my phone, oh my, I need to upgrade my phone. You don't need to upgrade your, your phone's great the way it is.
[00:24:31] Be grateful of your phone and you never know [00:24:35] a new phone could arrive. But I, gratitude is one. I practice on a daily basis and I have to trick myself. I went for a meeting one day and there was a church, and above the church it says, enter into these group, enter into these gates with thanksgiving. But I think what it meant, obviously it was an old, but I thought.
[00:24:52] I always think enter into these doors with gratitude. So every door I ever open, so if I go into my house, I open the door and I think I've, [00:25:00] I've got lights, I've got electric. When I open the door to my car, I've got a car to drive. If I go to a shop and out the door, the shop's full of food. I'm grateful for everything and that's one thing I practice on a daily basis is gratitude.
[00:25:12] One of the phrases I. A love is hold your beliefs lightly. So whatever you believe do not dogmatically hold onto them. And that that goes for if you believe you're not good enough, don't hold [00:25:25] onto that. Just know that it's just a belief and it's a limiting belief. But also, like me, I believe I'm a great teacher and I still hold onto that belief quite lightly 'cause that makes me continue to keep working at it.
[00:25:38] Because that can consume, disappear. I love that, that I have a similar kind of saying of just give it a light touch, whatever those thoughts are, just a light touch. It, it's, it's a beautiful way to, to then [00:25:50] recognize sort of the fragility of them, but also believe in them. I think that's really important.
[00:25:54] But we are huge advocates of gratitude here in the work that we do and still you and David. Um, and, and you know, the concepts involved in mindfulness as a whole and. Really don't, it's not a fluffy idea. I think it's a really powerful, perhaps, I think it can be powerful for you as an individual, but I also think that in communities, in schools, [00:26:15] communities, having collective gratitude and showing that gratitude to each other of leaders, to staff, of staff, to each other, of students, to staff, I just think for exactly the reasons you said, David, is that it then becomes more contagious, doesn't it?
[00:26:30] Everybody then starts to feel that kind of positive energy, which can be really helpful if there is fear or negative thoughts or, you know, people are [00:26:40] struggling. So I absolutely, you know, uh, uh, agree with you there. Do you have a gratitude practice, Lee? Do you regularly practice gratitude? No, and I was just gonna say, 'cause that, that's, that's the one element that I've always struggled with, isn't it really?
[00:26:52] I'm getting much better at it now. You are great because you'll say to me like, you love your house, you love your house, you love doish. I don't think you just, you don't articulate it in the way I dos. No, it's not for, it's not, you're definitely grateful for them all, aren't you though? No, [00:27:05] definitely. I mean, it's not, it's not a formal thing and I'm really thankful and I was cleaning my garage out the day to, I was making it into a gym.
[00:27:11] I thought, this is gonna be amazing. This is, you know, and, and in that way it, it's, I recognize everything That's amazing. And I make sure I take it in all the time so I don't write a list. But I make sure I just drink it in all the time. And yeah, I was on the beach last week in Daven and I thought, you know, I [00:27:30] don't live anywhere near the beach.
[00:27:31] Think the closest beach to me is 70 miles away. So just tell myself I'm on a beach. Yeah. And just remember I'm on a beach. 'cause you can just easily walk on and walk off. It's just an amazing thing. I'm on the beach, I'm with my daughter. We're messing about in the sand, in the sand dunes and the, but I, I, I try and tell myself I'm amazing at is and drink it.
[00:27:52] And one of the, one of the things that's mindfulness, [00:27:55] you actually practice all these things with that call and it Yeah. Don't you? Because on what I'm going to, uh, Davey, I can't. I'm so boring. I said David Gray concert. Uh, God, no. Look David, David gr Yeah. And on May 8th of War Ranson. And one of, one of the things I'm not gonna do.
[00:28:09] And I'm gonna make sure I don't do it as, I'm not gonna take a photo. I'm not gonna get my phone out 'cause that's the memories all live in my head and I want to soak it up rather than [00:28:20] holding a phone up watching a concert when he's singing Babylon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like David Gray. David Gray train, spotting, ironing watching Professor Brian Cox talk about the universe.
[00:28:31] I'm. Sorted. I think we've all, I've all, we've all got the measure of you now, Lee, I think. But yeah, and I think again, it goes back to what we said. There's no size fits all with wellbeing. I think it can be easy to think, right, I need my list and I need to do all [00:28:45] these things every day. And then I'll feel well and then it's all solved.
[00:28:48] But it's not, it's about saying these are tools that can help, isn't it? Use the tools that work for you and actually the tools aren't, uh, there's no blueprint how those tools should be used because exactly as you said, Lee, you, you are thankful, you do have a gratitude practice. It's just not. In the same way that David and I might do our gratitude practice as somebody else will.
[00:29:07] And actually it goes back to what you said a little bit earlier when I asked the [00:29:10] question about how do you call out your demons of the self-sabotage charging thoughts? And you kind of talked about having that awareness. Now I would kind of turn that as thought catching, being aware of. Being aware of when the negative thoughts are coming in, but also being aware of when the positive thoughts are coming in.
[00:29:26] And it's that self-awareness, isn't it, of recognizing when you are feeling whatever it is that you are feeling and then [00:29:35] actually you can then decide whether it's true, whether it's helpful, um, and what actions you're gonna take from it, can't you? So back to the book then. There's loads more chapters in the book.
[00:29:44] One of the chapters focuses. On kind of being grounded. Um, I think it uses that term. Our minds are busy places. I think we can often be doing that time traveling or that what ifs or the what next or the buts. [00:30:00] And, and I think we've kind of maybe touched on this idea that there's. There's power in the present.
[00:30:06] So what helps you stay grounded? What or what tools would you suggest? I need little soundbites that can take round with me. So obviously Fair tells lies is one. The only, the other one that, that my sponsor and AA said I was, I was worried one day about PE what? On this podcast? Oh, you think people, you think listeners are [00:30:25] like it.
[00:30:25] And they used to say, listen, nobody be bothered 'cause you're not that important. And you know, you're not important. I'm important to those that love me, but you know. People won't be talking about me in the, the living room tonight, 'cause I'm not that important. But the only other, the, the one thing that saved my life, and I've passed it, I've got friend Jane and that live in Spain and they say it all the time and their friends have began to say, is is it happening today?
[00:30:48] Is it happening today? Or, [00:30:50] how you doing? Oh, Dave. Or next week? The, the builders are starting, they're an extension Next week or next week? I'm in school. Is it happening today, Julie? Is it what's happening today? Well, no, we're on this podcast, but after I've finished. I'm doing this, I'm gonna go shopping, I'm doing that and, and most of us can deal with, and it is, and with aa, we dealing the, just for today, just in the present, again, my God always says to me [00:31:15] that where Lee and I differ was, um, this is the day the Lord has created.
[00:31:19] We shall rejoice and be glad in it. And I, I, the God of my own understanding, I've got an agreement with him. And, um. Sorry, DA David and Pep. They're interchange by my two names. But David, what it is, I love you and I will look after you in today and I'll, I'll do everything I can within my power to look after you.
[00:31:36] If you want to go back to previous things three or four [00:31:40] years ago, or if you want to get in your erotic spaceship and go four months ahead and try and predict the future. You can go because you've got a thing called self will, but you go there alone. 'cause I'm too busy. 'cause I'm looking after Julian and I'm, he's looking after Lee.
[00:31:53] Lee just doesn't realize that God's looking after him. But, um, but, but God said I've, I'm too busy in the day, but if you go there, you go alone. And that's when I tend to make mistakes is, [00:32:05] is when I go. I try and predict the future, or I try and rectify the past, but when I'm, when I'm rooted in today, and like Lee said there, imagine I'm buying beach or you know, you're walking down, we're, we're sitting there, we can see outside, there's leaves on the trees, there's sunshine at the back.
[00:32:20] It's beautiful just for today. And what I do is I keep myself rooted right in the day. And the big thing is if, if your listeners have they ever. If your head's [00:32:30] spinning off and you're worried, ask yourself, is it happening today? And if it's not happening today, we don't worry about it. 'cause, 'cause most of that stuff you, we've tried to predict in the future, none of it has ever come true.
[00:32:42] And, and that reminds me of, uh, it was, it was a couple of years ago and it is a really tough time for me. Want it a couple of years ago. And I, I was sitting on Darby's railway station. You know, if you, if you're a train spotter, you'll know Derby's a decent [00:32:55] place to go. And I wrote, I wrote this down. And that's, that's another strater I think when you're having these thoughts, write them down because he gets them out outta your head, onto some paper or, yeah, I tagged it up, uh, when I, I wrote him notes and then I emailed yourself and then I typed up what I was thinking.
[00:33:10] So I was sitting on Darby. Platform six a. I remember it. Really, really, I do remember it very vividly with a cup of tea. Worried that, one, I'd have no money in [00:33:20] retirement and I was gonna be homeless. So I'd made that story up in my head. This is like, you know, I, so I was living 15 years in the, in the, in the future.
[00:33:29] I was thinking about writing this book, but what, what if Dave dies before and actually thought that what if Dave dies? Thanks, uh, before, before the book's written. And then, and then my daughter's gonna hate me. And all this, it just made it all up. The next 15 years, I'd [00:33:45] sat out on Derby Station with a cup of tea at the place where I should have been happy.
[00:33:49] But I think, 'cause I've known David for so long and I've practiced cooking, calling those demons out and that sometimes I just let it run, let it run, work it out. Why are you saying this? Why do you, why do you think. You're gonna have new job or why do you think? And it's all nonsense. There's no logic behind it.
[00:34:08] It's without foundation. [00:34:10] Completely. And actually I thought, well, what's happening today? There's a lovely train, class 37, you've got a cup of tea, your favorite drink, and you're sitting on your, in your favorite place, a railway station that's, that's enough for today. Your retirement's 15 years down the road.
[00:34:29] Anything could happen. So I think that's even, and I don't always write things down, but I do go around now co. [00:34:35] It's almost in my head. I collect these stories and part of that's when writing this book, you know, over the years everything becomes a story and everything becomes really quite useful.
[00:34:44] Fundamentally, reality is just made up, isn't it? Oh yeah. It's like a, a bad episode of EastEnders on repeat, isn't it? Most of the time you know that what's going on in there and how much you choose to believe it's true is important. Another little trick [00:35:00] that for, for your listeners, you know, when you, when you say, call out your demons.
[00:35:03] I always personalize them. Can you remember, can you remember Rugrats? There was a, who was the girl? Um, Angelica. She was quite nasty to all the other children, weren't she? She was real. And I, I had a friend. She, I says, I have lots of friends in recovery. And she, I says, that's not you. That's your Angelica with inside your head, I've got another pal.
[00:35:22] Can you remember? I, I told [00:35:25] this to my, my, my son's girlfriend today. She couldn't remember who Harry Enfield was. Oh, I remember who he was. Do you remember the old guy? Remember the, oh, you don't wanna do that? Oh, I wouldn't do that. Only me. It's like that. Whatever you do, I'm, I'm thinking about starting a night school, you know, like a, a night.
[00:35:41] Do you still have night school? But I'm starting to, you know, some online learning in. I fancy becoming, I've been a TA for a few years. I fancy becoming a teacher. Oh, you don't wanna do [00:35:50] that. Oh, you're not clever enough. And that, that voice, so what I try and do is I give them a personality and I see them for what they are.
[00:35:57] This silly man with a cap on and this, and I, so I, and, and all I do is, and I do this with children. I go into schools and I say That monster inside your head. And I said, you can't get rid of it 'cause it's got fangs and claws and it's, it all rippy to pieces. I said, well you created that monster. And I said, why don't you make [00:36:15] it into a toaster?
[00:36:16] And they start laughing. I said, I said then, but then the next day you can change it into a traffic cone. 'cause if we've got the power to, we've made these monsters inside our head. Just keep swapping 'em every day. And there's one little girl, Rosie, she said to me, she says, I can't wait to go home. I'm gonna take the Mickey at me Monster when I go to bed tonight.
[00:36:33] Whereas before she was riddled with this fear. She was gonna go home and and interrogate a monster. And that's what I urge [00:36:40] people to do. Yeah. Uh, it's really powerful that naming them. Um, I love the idea of giving them voices and, and, and that kind of imagery and faces. Um, and suddenly it's a whole different episode going on in your head, isn't it?
[00:36:53] With, uh, if we kind of then characterize, and there's a section in the book, isn't there? And it's based on sort of Steve coy circles of influence and I think kind of this. This fits in really well [00:37:05] here that we need to focus on controlling the controllables, and I think that is so important in terms of managing wellbeing, I think we've kind of touched on that you refer to it as your hula hoop instead of circle of influence, which I love.
[00:37:21] So how do you kind of personally determine what's inside your hula hoop and let go of what you can't control? I've got, I've got a couple of examples really of [00:37:30] how, imagine you wanna start the gym. And I, and I, I've spoken to my girlfriend about this recently. She's, she after me trying to convince her to go back to the gym.
[00:37:39] 'cause that's where, that's her happy place. But she didn't go for a co for a couple of years for all sorts of reasons. Uh, and then she's back at the gym now and she said, well. When I go in, they'll all be watching me. You know, they're all these really, really thin and hunky people and they'll be watching me.
[00:37:54] Those [00:37:55] sorts of thoughts from other people outside your hula hoop. And also to be more challenging to her and to other people. It's nothing to do with you what they think that that's their thoughts. You, you leave them to, you have your thoughts. Their thoughts are nothing to do with you. And then there's another story that I share in the book actually, and.
[00:38:16] It's two years ago, two summers ago. Uh, it was me and my [00:38:20] daughter, uh, sitting in a car park and it is on a car and, and a place called Doley Rowing in Devon. And we packed everything for the beach. It was August, it was our, our summer holiday. And it started to rain. So we sat in, we sat in the car patiently waiting for the rain to stop.
[00:38:35] You know how horrible it is. You, you, the boogie boards are packed. There's a few little waves we could see and everything. The, the stage was set that sat for the weather. So my daughter, I [00:38:45] think she's 10 or 11 at the time, and then she started to complain about the weather. And then I started to get quite agitated about this, saying I can't do anything outta the weather.
[00:38:55] She wasn't asking me whether I could do anything outta the weather or not. So we kind of had like a bit of a quarrel where we would fall out and then it's suddenly dawn, now we're falling out about the weather. I've absolutely powerless over this weather. So I think I have, [00:39:10] that's the real, you know, I, I, I'm always reminding myself of that story that we falling about things that, you know.
[00:39:16] Of, you know, we're just completely powerless about and also think watching the news. Yeah. And again, I think the phrase they use in the book is, if you're watching the news it, I dunno, it might be Donald Trump, it might be all these people that they might be really getting on your nerves. By all means, let them get on your nerve.
[00:39:32] But use, use that. Use [00:39:35] that, that energy to vent it out rather than to sort of light it inside, just to make it even worse. Yeah, vent it, speak about it, but let that be a release rather than the buildup. 'cause actually, I don't, I can't really control what Donald Trump thinks. That's outside of my, my influence.
[00:39:54] It's a concern. Stephen Cove would call it, you know, that circle of concern, but it shouldn't, [00:40:00] you know, it shouldn't dominate my thoughts. You know, what can I do? You know, people say write to your low com p, you can, you can write to 'em coin. That's, you can control that. Yeah. With the weather, I could put an umbrella look, I could wear a coat.
[00:40:13] I could say, let's go the shop first. There's so much I could have controlled about that situation that I didn't, 'cause I was getting grum 'cause I wanted to go in the sea. But I couldn't. So I [00:40:25] think the whole concept of this came a bit that we, we obviously, we, we had intellectualized it by the, you know, the reading, the Stephen Covey book.
[00:40:32] It was my nephew and, uh, Jamie. He's, he's only seven years younger than me. I was an uncle when I was seven. And, uh, I said to Jamie one day, it was, it was something that was annoying us. I say, you get annoyed by that, Jamie. And he just says, so, so my hula hoop, isn't it? I said, what do you mean? He says, so she imagine you, you work in schools, [00:40:50] don't you?
[00:40:50] I said, he's a scaffolder. Jamie says, you work in schools. I said, I do. She says, you remember you used to get hula hoops? She says, everything inside that H loop, yours, everything inside outside of it's done to do you. And I thought, keep inside your hula. So some days I imagine myself at the Hulu, and I think what we've d we've decided in the book.
[00:41:07] The person right next to you, you can sort of interlock your, your, your hula hoops like a Venn diagram, but there's only a tiny little [00:41:15] space you can influence, like your children. For example, the choice of partners or the, the, the color of the hair or whatever. But you can't 'cause it's outside your hula hoop.
[00:41:24] And when you realize. It's got nothing to do with you. Life becomes so simple, doesn't it? I, and I actually am stood here thinking I, I can feel the hula hoop. I'm loving that as an analogy. I think that's just, I actually stood up as well. And I'm not minded to kind [00:41:40] of practice having a little hula. I'm terrible at the hula hoop though.
[00:41:44] I'm absolutely terrible. Um, so that wouldn't be a pretty sight. Um, no, I think that's, that's lovely. And you know that. Sense of reminding yourself. Again, going back to that, having that awareness, reminding yourself that that control the controllables and that's where the power lies, isn't it? And, and that power in being [00:42:05] able to just do the things that are within your control and, and learn to let go of those, those other things.
[00:42:11] So important to think. I think that's why we've kept the book the way it is, because it, if you're going into an interview and you're panicking either yeah. It's fear, by the way, Julie, it's fear is telling lies or so and so do, it's outside your hula next door neighbor's hedge is too long, it's outside your hula hoop.
[00:42:27] Or I'm really worried about is it happening today? And we give [00:42:30] people practical things they can use there. And then like, so we, we, we talk a bit about, uh, I mean we've had diff different experiences with job interviews, aren't we? Yeah. You had to, you know, you went for it. A job interview. I was crying. You were crying?
[00:42:43] I was crying. There's a place neighborhood called Ock Chase. It's a big forest and in the end I came out and I didn't get the job and I had to go and with my wife and I was crying in this forest. And my son, he, I dunno why he, he comes at this like [00:42:55] phony line 'cause your accent says. He said, Dave, carry on.
[00:42:58] Dave, you'll be crying up the chase again. So I was crying up the chase, wasn't it? Yeah. And I recently had an interview and didn't get the job and you know, I, and I said, I said to David, I said, I don't wanna talk about you tonight, so sat I'll be better tomorrow. Yeah. But I was, because actually I can't that, that decision's been made.
[00:43:14] Now it doesn't matter what I do, you know, on that particular day for that particular job, [00:43:20] they thought someone was a better fit than me. And that's it. And it, it comes back to acceptance as well. That's absolutely fine. And, and as a Ronaldo look-alike, you were never gonna get it anyway. Were you, I, I think that, you know, and I'm really looking forward to the book when it kind of comes to fruition, because I think what you're doing there is you provide a lot of these ideas that, that you're talking about are [00:43:45] grounded in research.
[00:43:45] They're grounded in theory. They're grounded in. Practices around mindfulness, but what you're doing is you put in a language that's really accessible around those thees, which I think can be helpful for those people who maybe kind of would not naturally go towards a wellbeing book or think that it wasn't for them.
[00:44:05] And I think, you know, this language and everything that you are using is, is absolute [00:44:10] joy really. Can I just say we've actually, we have written the book. I mean, do you wanna explain who's helping us? Yeah. Well we've written the book. It's, it's too many words at the moment. 'cause obviously when you write, you, you know, you're right and right and right.
[00:44:23] We've got so many ideas. So we're, we're at the editing stage now, which is rereading it and reading it and reading it. And we're getting some great help actually from, uh, a guy called Andy Cope. The art of being Brilliant. I dunno if [00:44:35] you've heard of Andy. I have. He's only got, he's got a PhD in happiness. I, I met him once a, a, a network, the thing called Mastermind Group.
[00:44:43] I'm part of the guy called David er, and I met Andrew there and, uh, I showed him this draft. He said, what you've got there, the, it's the makings of something brilliant. It needs to be on the shelves of Waterstones. So when we, we did all the heart work, we, we wrote it and basic, he gave us some, he's not [00:45:00] publishing or anything, but he's just, he's just helping us out.
[00:45:02] He's just, he's giving up his own time, just giving us a bit of advice. And, um, but it came back in December. Now what he actually said. It was fantastic lad, some great stuff here. Just need to edit it. Lee understood that 'cause of my imposter syndrome. He may as well have said, this is the worst writing I've ever seen.
[00:45:19] You're like a pair of five year olds. Why did you bother? And I've, I'm really struggling to, [00:45:25] because that's my imposter within me. But it's now nearly June and we haven't, well, it's No May, isn't it nearly April? Yeah, we've started, well actually it was really interested with Andy. You know, he'd spent a lot of time doing comments for us and stuff like that.
[00:45:37] And David's interpretation was, oh, it's not good enough, is it? And I was like, he's got some really good stuff here. He absolutely loves this. So we're com completely there for opposite end of the scales. [00:45:50] And this man, he's a, I mean, he is obviously, he is a naturally renowned author and he is, he is the author's spy dogs, like, you know, and he's given us a time for, to what?
[00:45:58] Talk about gratitude. He's given us time for free. And what he said was brilliant. That's my brain. And that's why I'm writing the book because that's the way my brain filters it. And I always say, we, we write the books or we, we do the work that, that we require ourselves, don't we? You know, I think there's [00:46:15] a, a learning in that.
[00:46:17] So we're kind of running out a little bit of time. I have just got a couple more questions that I'd like to ask you. So just really. Briefly. I want to touch on the, the theme of tribes. You talk about, I think you talked about the C-B-U-C-B-U-C-P-U, forest Protection Unit, forest Protection Unit. I think tribes in the workplace place a super important, particularly in education.
[00:46:37] I think it can be on some levels, [00:46:40] quite an isolating job when you're the only adult in the room and there isn't much time for that connection. But equally in every, any given community. There's people who are the radiators, there's people who are the drains, and I think we've all got potential to be both of them all the time.
[00:46:55] I, I always like think, oh yeah, I'm definitely a radiator, but there's no deny in it that, you know, we, we all have those potentials to be both. You always talk about time bandits, which I [00:47:05] love that expression. People who drain your energy and, and disrupt your peace, so. Could you just speak to that kind of chapter maybe, is around managing those situations where, where people are thieves of your joy or of your time.
[00:47:21] I've always said that, that everybody you meet and that there's no scientific background, it's just my own 61 years on this planet. Everyone you meet [00:47:30] falls into two categories. They're either a drain or a radiator and they drain the lifeblood out you, they drain the positivity out you or they radiate kindness and love and.
[00:47:40] What happens? You can't get rid of the drains because sometimes you, they might have given birth to you. They might have given birth to you, your loved one, your husband or your partner. You might have given birth to them, [00:47:55] not in our case, but you might be married to one of them. You might work for one of them.
[00:47:59] And what happened? I, I spent all my time, Judy, as a, and I think I'm a radiator. Oh no. I am a radiator, a hundred percent. And I went around trying to fix all the drains, but. I got that involved a fell in one. And the secret is Julie, they don't want to be fixed 'cause they're really, really happy being drained.
[00:48:16] 'cause that's where they get their self-esteem and that's where they get the [00:48:20] communication. And they love being drained. Not for me, but, and you can tell who they are. 'cause you'll say, how are you, Julie? Oh, I've had a terrible date. Oh. All you have to do with them is you can't cut them outta your life.
[00:48:32] Because like you said, the the, there could be family members. Just limit your time with them and put boundaries in place. I'm going to see, I keep saying you, Julie, 'cause you're, you're far from being a drain, but I'm gonna see our Julie this afternoon. I'll [00:48:45] listen Lee, I'll be 20 minutes. I love her. But honestly, after 20 minutes, she's, honestly, I'm, you know, it's, it's, she's unbearable.
[00:48:52] So what I'm do, and I call you, listen to you, I've gotta go because I'm meeting you. I'll, I'll pop in tomorrow, whatever. What happens, you're not, 'cause the next she'll phone up the next person or she'll get the next, you know, uh, person. So that is, and I've said to people, go on your phone and look at your last 20 messages and just say, [00:49:10] who are the drains and who are the radiators?
[00:49:12] And lot will say, we're not advocating getting rid of them, we're just advocating. Be aware of them and putting boundaries to safeguard yourself. That's all we're saying is that, but I think Andy calls them in his book, I think he called them Mood Hoovers. It was my friend Mike that called them Time Bandits.
[00:49:29] And sometimes you have you ever, if you're on holiday, you might, sitting by the pool, you might wanna talk about. Train Scott, you [00:49:35] or ironing whatever you or it mentioned profess Professor Brian Co on max one. Yeah, yeah. He's got that in. Yeah. Um, yeah, so that's range in radio has just been aware of them.
[00:49:46] But make sure you put boundaries into safeguard yourself and hang around with other radiators. And that is, they become what's called, called your close protection unit. And that's a great link into the CP isn't, that's the CPU close to see [00:50:00] what I did there. Yeah. I think, I think for most of us. Do we always say we could, you know, you could.
[00:50:05] You could count. Count your closest friends on one hand, really, and I think probably five or six would make up a close protection unit. They're the people you can go to when the proverbial hits a fan. Really, they're the ones you trust the most and you can say anything to or would keep a secret. Although they're not so great at keeping secrets, he, [00:50:25] he is one of my, he is one of my close protection unit members.
[00:50:29] Uh, you are, but hopeless of that. I've been married 30 years and my wife must, I've been with my wife 30 years, says, David, I love you, but it was something I didn't want end anybody to tell you. I couldn't tell you. So that's my wife. I, I'm just getting excited. Yeah. Um, and I, and I think to give an example, and I, and I don't mind giving this example really that's 18 months ago I was in the Lake [00:50:50] District, uh, with my partner Alice and, and her family, and she.
[00:50:54] She got a, a headache and tingling down one side of her body and things like that. So you know what meant, what was meant to be a really, really nice holiday. We ended up in Lancaster, a and e, and at that time she was diagnosed with a brain tumor. So, and who did text? [00:51:15] David? I said, and I basically asked him, don't go bed tonight 'cause I think I might need you.
[00:51:19] Yeah. And you said that you, you, you phone me at any time and you know, take, you know, e everything's fine now. She an operation. It's all good. But there's those sorts of experiences you really, really know who your close protection unit are. And I've got my Moremy two sisters, you know, and that you get such great advice on what's amazing about 'em.
[00:51:38] We say this in a book. [00:51:40] Each one has a certain, a different role. So I've got one sister who is so measured and she'd just gimme some great advice. You know, when I've been, when I was beating myself up about breaking a family up, she said, just be kind to yourself. Yeah. You've done it for the right reasons.
[00:51:58] And I've got Carly, you know Carly, don't you? Yeah, she's, she just tells it like it is. Why on earth you wasting your [00:52:05] time. She just says it. That's straight out is And her mom's just great when I just need to cry. Yeah, she doesn't, she just says the right things. But she's known me for nearly 50 years. So she's Bower, isn't she?
[00:52:16] So it, it's, and then, and then Alice semi partner, she, she's a like nine biggest champion. She's like my supporter. She's, she's raised self esteem, I think Absolutely. In the last two years. Incredibly. And then Dave Dave's team captain. [00:52:30] But I, I think it is, isn't it? It's, you know, I think spot on there, it's about just tribes are really important.
[00:52:38] Our wider tribes are really important, but. Kind of being conscious of those people who are draining our energy, putting those boundaries in, accepting that you can't necessarily get rid of them. They might be a colleague, there might be a manager, there might be a parent, as you said, could be in boundary to protect yourself [00:52:55] and drawing on the energy of your close protection unit.
[00:52:58] Quite often you're gonna have a tough day, aren't you? Tough day. Who are you gonna go to? Invent and I, and I think vent's a really important word. So if you imagine a vent, steam comes out, it doesn't go in. Yeah. You know, it releases all that negative energy and you release that are not under someone in your CPU, but there'll be a radiator as well.
[00:53:18] Yeah. They're not [00:53:20] going to sort of jump into that hole with you. They're gonna be trying to get you out of it and making you feel a lot better as you put some context in, in building that, because I gave a keynote at Lee Score the other week, uh, talking about the book, and he said about after people were talking about drains of Raiders radiators, but he, it was, when you've got a friend, Julie, you say.
[00:53:38] Julie, I'm you. You know I don't drink, but Julie, can I come around and can I, my head's full. Can we have a glass of wine? And all I'm gonna do is [00:53:45] just speak for two hours, Julie? Yep. Don't worry. I'll just, and can I just vent it? I don't want you to do anything with it. I just need to come and dump it on your carpet.
[00:53:53] Don't worry about and as soon as you go, I'll hoover it. Or, but that's what it is sometimes. But if you, if you are gonna, oh yeah, Dave's coming around, I'm gonna fix all these problems. Sometimes you don't need to, you just need to be an ear just event. So radiators drain's an event. There we go. They're the, they [00:54:10] absolutely what we need.
[00:54:11] Okay. So, um. We always finish with the same final question, but I feel like before we go into the final question, I want, Dave, just to give you a little bit of a platform. I feel like we need to hear one of your poems before we finish. Have you got one in particular that you'd like to share? I've got one, and it's quite a sad one because obviously you're from time.
[00:54:30] No you're not. You're from. To Seaside, which is near, it is Northeast [00:54:35] us. Yes it is. I, I've got me auntie, I spoke to her today. Hannah, beautiful lady, but she's, she's fallen on hard times. Me, auntie Hannah and I didn't really want to end the podcast with a sad note, but she's really, she, she lives in Newcastle and she's got no money and, uh, she's got no chance of earning any money.
[00:54:52] And the reason why she's, 'cause she's got eight arms. Um, please don't math. Um, 'cause it's not funny. And it's called me, [00:55:00] aunt Han's got eight. Hans, me, aunt Han's got eight Hans, which sounds like a bit of a fuss and she can multitask and she can fend off her attack. She's a bit like an octopus now. She can scramble eggs and she can shave her legs while cooking cheese on toast.
[00:55:15] She can care carefully. Crow, she full scarfs at once. Ah, but she don't like the boast. See me art. Hannah's got eight hands and she's sent from heaven above. It's not [00:55:25] funny. She's got no money 'cause she spent it all on Groves. Love that. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for making it regional. Um, in my, I do them all, but there's a Scottish worm, there's a Jodi Spider, there's a Scouse ant, there's a bumblebee, there's an earwig from the west country.
[00:55:43] Um, there's a whole host of them that, that are share in schools. So, um, love that. And I've not worked in the Northeast yet, so [00:55:50] if there's a plug in the, there we go. If anyone's listening in the Northeast, invite David to your school to work with the children on poetry. And as he's already mentioned, he also kind of delivers, they'll be.
[00:56:03] Keynotes around this theme of fear tells lies. So I can't wait for the book. I think it's gonna be brilliant. As I say, I think I love the approach that you take into it. It's really [00:56:15] down to earth, really humorous and really accessible, which I think I'll, I'll just make it really appealing. So thank you so much for sharing, sharing your thoughts with us today.
[00:56:24] But we always finish with the same question. We just ask you for, um, some words of wisdom. If you were to offer our listeners a suggestion of one kind thing that they could do for themselves today, [00:56:40] what would it be? Do you wanna go first? Yeah. Uh, one kind thing. Go for a walk. I think. Go for a walk. 'cause it's your time is just peace.
[00:56:51] Gorgeous. And from my perspective, if you can do without children, even better. Yeah. My, my mom used to say when I was younger, it was nobody when I'd been naughty, she was a Scottish lady. See you go upstairs, get a look [00:57:05] in the mirror and have a look at yourself. But, but that was, it would, but I always urge people to go into the mirror and have a look at yourself.
[00:57:12] But, but just see the beauty's there. That person staring back from you has been in every journey you've ever been on, every thought you've ever thought, every dream you've ever had, every romance you've ever had, everything you've eaten, everything you've tasted, every experience in your life. [00:57:30] That person in the mirror has actually been there with you every step of the way.
[00:57:34] And there's, I think there's a, I don't know, but there's a poem in AA called Man in the Glass. If your listeners, if the, if the Google AA poem, man In the Glass, it's a beau. Oh. And change it to Woman in the Glass. But it's a beautiful person in the glass. It's a beautiful poem. It's just about looking at yourself and think, yeah, we're doing all right.
[00:57:49] We're still here. Yeah. And appreciates what you've been through. Yeah. The highs and the lows. And you're still, [00:57:55] you're still there. Still going. Thank you so much, both of you. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you today and I wish you all the luck with the book and can't wait to read it. So thank you very much.
[00:58:07] Thank you. Thank you for.