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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Well, to the overflow. I am so excited to introduce you to my friend Juliet Lyons. What a treasure. I believe that worship is something that can be very misunderstood. And we don't even fully understand the definition much less the power available to us Yeah.
Speaker 1:With the gift of worship. And before we get into that topic, we also may talk about pain as well, just pain in church. Yes. We're in a culture where church hurt is the buzzword. And we talk about that on this podcast but I believe you may have some real just gold for us in our lives.
Speaker 1:But before we do that, will you just share a little bit because this girl's been all over the world. When we talk about worship, God had gave you an assignment and now you're pastoring a beautiful church with your husband Max. And so will you just tell briefly your journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. So I did, I started off in the house of God and just I I was hiding in the back, but I really, really love Jesus and I'd always been so passionate. And so I was always the girl that was just dancing and singing in worship then one day one of the staff members were like, you can sing. And which was so funny to me because it was never something that I thought was unto the Lord singing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so when I joined the church, my worship was serving on the doors, was hosting, my worship was helping out in kids. You know, that was my, right, was my worship to the Lord. And I was a singer at the time. I doing, I had a record deal and it was great. And so it never felt like that thing that I would give and then by time and over time, started singing in the house of God, started leading.
Speaker 2:One thing that was my biggest challenge was the enemy really challenged me to even have the audacity to call myself a worship leader. Oh wow.
Speaker 1:So it took me about ten years. So the enemy came at you, that's not who you are? Identity crisis, big time.
Speaker 2:And so I had to really go on a journey of what is worship. And so the worship that I went through was, I mean, first of all, meet before God just on my feet, on my knees, just going for it, learning who I was in Christ and I learned how to worship Him in the secret of it's a heart question. And I learned that and so with that, I was able to take it and stand in church and our church was amazing in London, Great, I mean there were Sundays that would have up to seven services. Wow, leading worship, doing the thing and serving afterwards and cleaning the toilets on Monday morning. Sam knew exactly that that our identity was not found in a microphone.
Speaker 2:And so I was doing a lot of singing and then I ended up doing a lot of touring and touring with a lot of incredible worship artists, toured with passion with all sorts of queer people and did a lot of festivals and then over time I realized that I just, I really I would do this if it wasn't. I was working full time at the time so it was all part of. Yeah. And then I met my husband and a year later, the Lord was like, Jesus started. Oh wow, you didn't see
Speaker 1:that one coming, did you?
Speaker 2:Blindsided, you know, because I did, I said to my husband, I am in London till I die and there is nothing you can do about it. And so we had this journey that God had to reshape my mind to what was cervix. And so my worship had to change again, like it wasn't just serving, it was surrender. And so we went to Chicago and in the middle of a pandemic decided to start church which is highly advice, no, it's not. Don't do it, no, don't.
Speaker 1:It's a miracle really. A live church is a miracle.
Speaker 2:It's a miracle but I will say that sometimes I think so many people start endeavors without feeling the breath of God. And there's so much heart in an assignment that if God hasn't called you to something that it really is like you going in your own strength. So we needed that grace to be able to do what felt really impossible in a season and the time that pretty much felt like Norway should be doing something like that. Yes. Yes, so we started church and we just launched it, we gave the idea of the church and little by little people have just been joining in and we're now in a beautiful season with our church, we've moved into a new location, we're starting two services, our team's budding and growing and I am so in love with the house of God but specifically the house that He has entrusted to.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, It'll be. Well, it's beautiful because God's gonna build his church that he promises and a gates of hell cannot prevail. And so here you were in 2020 thinking, surely what evil? Did I just hear that correctly? That call correctly?
Speaker 1:Yes. But I love what you said. And I think this is true to anyone listening, whatever people are facing their life right now. When you are looking at your life and what's coming next, not to just rely on this is what I feel or this is what I think I can do. But sometimes it's the impossible.
Speaker 1:Oh my That God is wanting to walk us into that if we'll listen to his voice and take the step that heart from God, it's it's not happening. Yeah. Then we find ourselves on the other side of the miraculous, so true.
Speaker 2:And the breakthrough. So true and I think there is something really beautiful about holy fear. You go into a world, we live in a world where everyone's like what are you afraid of? And all these things but there is a when God gives you a call and it scares the living daylights Yes. Of you.
Speaker 2:Right? Right? Where, I mean, you just need God, there is no way you can do it without hearing. And so we were, I mean, know, Max and I will always laugh, we've had those, did God really say it? Oh, yes.
Speaker 2:I was just like, I know he said it, did he really say it like this? Yeah. Get me back out, you know? And said that the call of God can be the scariest thing you've ever done, it's true. And so if you're in that place where God is calling you to something that just seems like scarier than you could imagine is probably because it's him.
Speaker 1:It's him. And he won't let you do it without him. So good. He's so good. Well, you said something about worship.
Speaker 1:You know, that's been such a big part of your story and it was the kickoff and you're still leading worship and preaching in your church. It's just so beautiful. And you lead worship as a blessing to us in our church at Keystone and just coming and, oh, we're so thankful for your friendship and imparting that on us. But when you said earlier that worship started as a posture of your heart in the secret place, I think this is where it would be good to revisit again for the person listening that sometimes we think of worship as that time in the service. It's like the order of this service where it's time to come in and sing a song.
Speaker 1:Let's just start there. Oh my. Help us out.
Speaker 2:Okay, guys. The reality is that is just karaoke. If it's not connected to something on the inside of you, come on, right? You are just doing Christian karaoke. Wow.
Speaker 2:And as much as that feeds your emotion and you will, you'll find an emotional high that that emotional high will turn into candy and then that high will just hit a low real quick, come on. And then the dark days come and you got nothing. Wow. Right? Because you've just been sitting in Christian M and M's.
Speaker 2:Wow. Oh my goodness. Right? It's so good. And so like that's not going to serve the journey of being an all out surrendered worshipper with God.
Speaker 2:And that's the Bible says that's what God's looking for in spirit, knowing that it comes from the very, the deepest part of you and in truth, it's embedded in the word of God. Like everyone's like, oh, spirit and in truth, spirit and in truth, but are you doing it in spirit, like the very core of yourself? And are you doing it embedded in God's truth, not your truth, not your feelings, not your emotions but in the word of truth. And so those two things does not happen, you can't get there until every single part of you is touched by the presence of God. And it has to be an encounter over.
Speaker 2:I remember as a 14 year old just overwhelmed by the presence of God. In my bedroom, I would fall on my knees and I'd be like, why is it that no other 14 year old feels this way? Why is it that I just want to be with you? I just wanna pee with you. And if that means that I'm like, but I know I'm 14, right?
Speaker 2:But I'm also cool, Lord. It's funny. Our silly prayers, right? So can I worship you and still be cool? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just gave myself and I remember there was a past speaker that came to my church back in the day in London when I was still a kid and still under my mom's authority so I had to go. And they were talking about sacrificing yourself on the brazen altar and giving yourself away to God. And they challenged every person in the room to do it first thing in the morning for forty days and I did it. I rolled out of bed and laid on the floor and imagined myself on a sacrificial altar and say, Lord, if you wanna use me, if you wanna do anything with me, like my heart is in. And he always does, the God is after you said it in the service today, God is after our heart.
Speaker 2:Yes. And if we can look at our heart and know that God is in the centerpiece of it, oh yeah, that's where worship begins. That's where
Speaker 1:worship begins.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't no one you're not there's no age limit to that. I know. We always say this, there's no junior Holy Spirit. Right. There's no junior presence.
Speaker 2:It's all God. And so that's the posture of going there so that when you're singing, something's attached to the word. You're not just singing words. I remember as a kid, I don't know if you did this, I was singing all the songs in the top 40 charts. And now I look back on those words, I'm like I was allowed
Speaker 1:to sing those we don't know. Can we just say we didn't
Speaker 2:do I plead with yours, I don't know what I was singing. I'm sorry, Lord. Forgive me if I do not know what I was doing. And so you go through those moments and you're singing those songs but now it's like in worship when I sing, Lord I give you my heart, I give you my soul. I'm not singing that with a blank mind.
Speaker 2:I'm singing that with my body, soul, mind and man, that's everything. And when I do that, there's an encounter that happens that is unlike anything. And that's why when I sing in worship, I feel like I'm pastoring as well because you can't just encourage people to sing because if they sing and the spirit's not awakened yet as a song Right. Will forget what just happened. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh nothing would have.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so powerful. And as I think about the words you're saying, you know, something inside of us, God created music to ignite something in us. You go to a concert, whatever concert, if you like the band, I mean, you're all in the whole entire arena is swaying. Right. There's something happening inside of humanity.
Speaker 1:I mean, say, think about King Saul and the Bible when he was so tormented. My goodness. And David and his music began to soothe him even though his heart was far from God. So that's all very real. So when it comes to worship, it's almost like you better be on guard.
Speaker 1:What is in charge here? I had heard a story, actually it was this week, of a person, an adult sharing their story as when they were from when they were a child. And the reality that they had a father and a family that would go to church. I mean, they'd be a deacon in the church. They were highly revered in the church and then come home and be just holy terror to the family.
Speaker 1:And the things happening behind that closed door were so damaging, so hurtful. And that's an extreme picture of what it looks like when, like you said, the church comes and starts singing and it's just eating Christian M and M's. Right. It's trash. It's not gonna build anything in us.
Speaker 1:It's actually, if that's all you have, it'll eventually destroy you. And so I think that's a big deal is to understand that before worship the form of praise and seeing before it's ever in that form, it's a culture, it's attitude of the heart. It's a culture of the soul. It's like every day. I think one of the big moments for me as a young mom is when I realize I'm worshiping God when I change my kid's diaper.
Speaker 2:Say it again for the people in the back.
Speaker 1:That that is a form of worship. True. If my attitude is surrendered and and full of thankfulness to my God. Right? So when you think when you think about the reality of worship before it gets to the singing, how could you help us cultivate that worship in our hearts?
Speaker 2:There is a monk, he wrote the practice of the presence of God. And it's this tiny little book and he's this guy who used to serve and he had his lids, I think it was a pitted or something and he would have to do all this work. This is back in the day, eight years ago. And he would have to travel on ships and protect wine bottles and wine beer kegs and all these things but he loved the Lord. And so he was like, he would make comments like I will not even resolve if someone comes up to me and orders me to pick up that litter box or litter, whatever it is off the floor, I'm resolved, so resolved in my love for my God that I won't do it unless I'm doing it in love and in response to worship him.
Speaker 2:Wow. And so he lived this hard life but everything was as unto the Lord. Yes. And it was it just felt as if something clicked in me and it was this tiny book and I remember buying like, I think no less than 50. Just giving them away.
Speaker 2:Just like, this is what worship is. It's surrender. It's giving yourself away every day. It's knowing what the voice of God is and listening to that. My worship is obedience.
Speaker 2:Oh, say that again, seriously. My worship is knowing his voice and not just knowing it but listening and obeying it. Wow. Bible says he who has it ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying. And like when you're hearing it, you're not just like, you know sometimes you're talking to a teenager, can you hear me?
Speaker 2:Oh, can you? Can you hear me? Because if you can hear me, you do what I say but you're not hearing me. Right. You know, and that that there's a something about the father heart that's saying, can you you hear me?
Speaker 2:Because if you can hear me, I told you not to go there. And if you went there, it would change this part of your destiny. If you'd let your feet go down this road, it won't be. It will be detrimental. He who has an ear that acute and hearing means I hear you, I process and I will obey.
Speaker 2:And that's why worship is so powerful. It takes your mouth, it takes your emotions which is always affected when you're in that music and it feels good and then it takes your spirit and it aligns it. And when you're fully aligned and the spirit of God can go deep unto deep, then you're like, and you're listening and you're in obedience and that obedience will inevitably lead to surrender. There is something so sweet about the connectivity of God. Oh, like everyone's always like, who's your favorite bible character?
Speaker 2:Mine is Enoch because like, he walked with God. Can you imagine? Like walked with God in the cool of the day. Yes, please. Yes.
Speaker 2:And so I always find myself everywhere I go learning to cultivate the art of listening as opposed to opening up my mouth, singing this song, everyone listen to my voice, I don't feel like I have a great voice, honestly. That I feel I feel not. Thank you. Like But I hate what you're saying. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think if my identity led with that, it would be a different worship. Yes. Right? Yes. Like it comes from my spirit's overflow of.
Speaker 2:I learned I had this amazing vocal coach who taught me how to sing on a treadmill guys. Wow. We had to sing on a trail because the onus was I'm not trying to get you to have the prettiest voice, I want you to have a powerful voice. Wow. So that when something is happening on the inside of you, you can use your voice to carry the war cry that is happening in your soul.
Speaker 1:I was like, come on.
Speaker 2:Okay. That's amazing. He was training my spirit, not my physical.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I I learned how to be a charging warrior with my voice, not a pretty butterfly. I will never be the pretty butterfly. I'm cool with that. I think my anointing is to be like, we're going up. Yes, know.
Speaker 1:Let's go. Okay, so that connects deep because I for a long time, in fact prayers for my children is God let my children be warriors for your kingdom. That is a deep cry, battle cry at my heart and you know, I may I don't know if I look like a butterfly or not. I don't know what I look like but there is a warrior on the inside and it always has been. And I I think the truth is we all need to be warriors because this life is a fight.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to worship, there's so many facets as we kinda enter in talking about the form of worship in worship and praise. As you come together as a body and you praise God and you lift your voice when it's aligned with the worship that's true in spirit and truth in your heart and soul and spirit. That worship has many effects but one is that it's a weapon. Worship is a weapon. And so when you talk about that and you're on that treadmill and that clearly anointed coach, I hope you knew Jesus because he was on seriously.
Speaker 1:He was on point. Yes. But telling you that this is a battle cry. I wanna prepare you for the battle cry. I believe that's what worship and praise is.
Speaker 1:When we gather, there are times when someone praising God and singing may be going to the most difficult time of their life or they just came out of it or they don't realize it but they're about to go in it. And it's a cry, it's a battle cry. What would you speak to just the battle cry
Speaker 2:of worship? Truly, I think you can tell someone who's been through something when they worship.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:I think you can just sniff it on them like I see you want something to be able to sing like that, to be able to do that, to be able to worship like that. And I remember there's been multiple times where I've just wanted to throw in the worship towel. I I don't need a microphone Lord, just put me in the back. I'm an introvert, God. Look, do you know what you made?
Speaker 2:Like why are you trying to put me on a stage? And then I would remember me and the journey that I went on and the fights that I've had to like the emotional, spiritual, mental. I mean there were years where I didn't even have a voice because like I had no confidence, I couldn't, I would open my mouth to speak and something would be holding my voice. I would be nightmaring and worrying and I just remember the only thing that I had to give was worship. And it was like those midnight hours where all I could do was sing the word of God and all I could give to God was a sacrifice of what was sown into me, you know, and I would remember the songs that I grew up with and just turn your eyes upon Jesus hymns that would just take me into a new place.
Speaker 2:And I would remember Bible verses that were actual songs that I would then go, okay, God, I'm in the middle of this absolute, like all the things that I went through, abandonment and just trauma on every level. And I just remember thinking if I did not have this weapon, I don't know where I would be. Yes. And so those years where I've just been like throwing in the towel and then I would meet someone who was at the beginning stages of a fight that I'd had and they would recognize the victory that they needed in me. Wow.
Speaker 2:And all I could do was get, you need to learn to worship God in your darkest hour. And I was just like, well, if I quit worship, how can I tell them and show them how Wow? To worship Right. Wow. In their darkest hour.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I think the last thing you wanna do is open up your mouth and give God a praise when you are in the depth of your stuff. When you're working through, when you think you're at the end, when you're just at your lowest low but knowing that it's a weapon changes everything. Because you're like, I don't have anything to give but this is this thing on the outside of me that I've been gifted with and I can open my mouth and use it. Yes.
Speaker 2:And it's never magical but day after day if you commit to I have the discipline of worship, I don't have the emotional feeling of worship. I will worship in season, I'll worship out of season when everyone's watching and no one's watching because and then you're worshiping with the word because don't just worship your, don't worship with all those masons. I'm just so broken Jesus, the man fish. No. Worship truth.
Speaker 2:Right. The Lord is holy. The Lord is righteous. Holy is His name. Like build yourself up in the future of what you know is coming.
Speaker 2:You know, we may not see it now, yes, but I know it's coming. And the more I sing it, the more I believe it, the more I believe it, the more I can get up off my knees. Oh, it's the more I can get up off my knees, the more I could be on my feet. The more I'm on my feet, the more I can crawl. I can walk.
Speaker 2:Oh today, yesterday I was on crutches but today I did one hour without crutches. And it doesn't happen overnight but worship is the weapon It is. That you can use It is. For that. And that's why the Lord's just been challenging me on don't don't we don't need the prettiest songs, we need the ones that will get people out of the mire That is so In the darkest days.
Speaker 1:That is so good. That is so good. Because the darkness is dark. Oh. And we need the light to shine.
Speaker 2:And how dark is the dark if we think we're in the light but we're actually in the Oh, exactly. My goodness. Deceived and confused. Deception is the biggest thing in this world right now. Right.
Speaker 2:And you don't know you're deceived because you're deceived. And the truth is in the Word of God and if you're not in that Word, if you're using it like lollipop, you know, feed me now Jesus, flick and pick and tell me which one it what makes me feel good. You are not going to live an unveiled life. You know, you're not gonna see what's behind the veil because your eyes are just taking, you know, the Bible talks about what your itching ears wanna hear. Right.
Speaker 2:So just doing that with the word of God, don't disrespect His holiness like bud. Learn who He is like I always say, if a true worshiper is not in the Bible reading the whole Bible every at least once a year, not to feed others but to feed yourself, you're not in it to know his heart, you're in it to just use it and use him. Don't use him, Like, engulf yourself in his heart, abide in him. So And you will learn muscles that you never knew.
Speaker 1:That's so so good.
Speaker 2:And so there's just so much I mean, I I'm still learning. We are forever learning about
Speaker 1:his Well, aren't we all? I mean, it's just the truth we all are and we're all in that journey. And I think back in the Bible when there was a time the Israelite army was being sent out and they sent the choir to go ahead. Like who does that? No one does that.
Speaker 1:Why would you send the choir to go ahead? It's because worship is a weapon and it unlocks the heart of God when done in spirit and It is. Yes. And there's praise there. I think it's also beautiful that our praise and our worship in that regard when you're we're worshiping, you know, whether it's in church or whether it's in your car or you're just singing to the Lord, that God gives us examples and expressions that please his heart.
Speaker 1:You know, you look all through the Psalms, clap your hands all you people, shout unto God with a voice of triumph. There's that language again, war cry, we're high up. Right? Shout before the Lord, dance before the Lord, lift holy hands before the Lord. That it just goes on and on so much.
Speaker 1:But I think it's very sweet and I and honestly mind blowing that the God who created us would tell us how he wants to be worshiped and praised. And why would he do that? Because of connection with us and wanting us to understand that our life is found in his glory and who he is.
Speaker 2:And he knows what it does to us. Yes. When we change, when we open our mouth and we extol him, exalt him. And there was one part of the Bible that I was reading and it goes all the way through the prophets where he is talking to them about please just don't give your heart to another idolatry really breaks my heart. I really don't like it when you worship other things that aren't really God's but actually a demon's masquerading as God.
Speaker 2:Just so that it can feed your little feeling here and the Bible talks very clearly about how you honor me with your lips. Yes. But you don't Yeah, you're just so far from me. And the Lord shows, He's so clear how I wanna be worshipped. And the reason why it was that way is because he wanted people to see that this is not about physical, this is about heart.
Speaker 2:When Aaron takes that blood and he puts it on his ear and he puts it on his thumb and he puts it on his foot, it's to say listen, I know that I need my ears to be sanctified. What I'm listening to, I need it to be sent. What I put my hand to, I need it to be holy, I need it to be sanctified. Where put my feet gone, sanctify and he did it regularly. And I think we forget the art of pursuing holiness.
Speaker 2:Yes. Like pursue yes, we'll never be perfect but pursue holiness, why? Because God is looking at your spirit first before he's looking at your outfit. He's looking at your spirit first before the hairstyle. He's looking at your spirit first before even how you fit.
Speaker 2:Like did you cry and worship? Yes, that was your emotions. Like, it's okay. Right. You don't have to bore your eyes out to show God you love him because he can see Just be honest.
Speaker 2:For real. Honest. Yeah. And when you're and the fact is he knows you more than you know you. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. So just give it to him anyway even in the imperfections, even in the dark. We're going through a lot in current season as a church where we're just trying to help people to understand that I know you know, I know you thought no one was watching me, you were doing this thing in the darkness. But one, there's fruit to every decision you made, there's and it's called consequence. And two, do you not think that God is everywhere?
Speaker 2:Like he could see Yes. And he can see the state of your heart mass. You're doing what you're doing. So then if you come to church on a Sunday and you're like, I worship you. Hallelujah.
Speaker 2:It's like, you liar.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, that's just my life. Right? Don't lie to yourself much less to God in heaven and your family who knows better. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right? That is that is powerful. And I feel like that's a message till we all are again, once again in heaven. Right.
Speaker 1:Because we battle our sin. We bow the flesh inside of us and the desire to do it our way. And it sends us to a space that's inauthentic if not careful when it comes to worship. Yes. And you know, I think about worship being definitely a weapon but I also see it as just being such an intimacy with the Lord.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned how you see people that you can tell they're going into a battle and they maybe are looking to someone like you or someone who has is worshiping God out of the battle, from the victory. Yeah. And they're looking for that hope. Right? And it makes me think of a friend of mine, she's a leader and she was talking about you, some of these leaders, we can think about the eyes on us.
Speaker 1:And she was talking about the struggle during worship to express just freedom in worship because of the eyes on her. I think every leader gets it. You don't it's not an enjoyable thought to be examined. No. But I remember that message that that I believe God gave me for her and I would say it to anyone listening right now.
Speaker 1:For me, because she was asking how do I feel about that as a leader? And for me, my journey is that God has done such a miraculous work in my life and is still doing it with the mess I am. Yeah. Apart from him, the mess that I am. He's doing such a work in me that when I come into the spaces of worship and I just have the ability to connect with him in something he created by the way.
Speaker 1:I worship and praise in that form. Yes. That's his idea, not ours. Right. That I get that kind of connection with him that I could boldly come to the throne room of God with my praise and my prayers.
Speaker 1:Like, what I told her that day is, I hope everybody look is looking because I want to take them where I'm going. Right.
Speaker 2:And I think there is something very powerful for anyone who's listening, you're not a singer, you're not aesthetically profile person but you're like influencing. Everyone has influence and I think so often we don't think that our thing is us unto the Lord. And I remember struggling so hard with the exact same thing. How can I be authentically myself when everyone's watching me? Or the reality is God has called us to be ministers of the gospel.
Speaker 2:And if you are trying to point people to you, then you're gonna feel that way. Why? We were not created to carry glory. Skin and flesh was not created to hold claws. You cannot, we cannot physically and that's why people boil over in the Christian world, in the non Christian world, they're taking this adulation and this fame and this influencer thing and they're putting it on their skin and bones and they're trying to carry it and they buckle under the weights because people are gonna say this and people are gonna look at me and you're gonna feel the insecurity of trying to be perfect.
Speaker 2:Right. And we were not created to be there. And that can be in finance, that can be in fashion, that can be in any industry, right? Everyone's watching, no less your family, right? And so the reality is that as long as you are pointing to the only one that is worth glorifying.
Speaker 2:You can dance like David does and not feel away. You can do anything if it really is unto the Lord. People can sniff the authenticity. And I think that's the reality of the journey and it takes muscles, right? To be able to take something that the world is telling we have award shows and we do this and I was saying to some of our worship team, the Holy Spirit sees your heart when you're standing there but no one else does.
Speaker 2:Everybody else sees your outfit.
Speaker 1:That's it, so true.
Speaker 2:That is surreal. It's so true, he can looks on the outward.
Speaker 1:Right. God looks at the heart.
Speaker 2:Right and so we wanna work to a place where we represent him well in this life but it's not gonna be authentically real if it doesn't start with the heart. And the heart is so powerful because it is a powerful tool and it can deceive you to oh. Fantastic. Don't let the heart deceive you into thinking that what you've been given as a gift is about you. So, right?
Speaker 2:We were never given gifts for the sake of self edification. It was always to serve, always to build up, always to, I am very biased, I think the church is the hope of the world. I mean, I think everything that we do must edify and glorify His bride. And so whether whatever industry God's laid on you and anointed you for, run like the wind, get to the top of your game, be awesome but know who you're pointing to. So don't sit in glory, don't allow yourself to falter or buckle by allowing your talents, your ability and even your success to become your idol.
Speaker 2:So good. Because then that becomes idolatry. Yeah. And that's why even worship leading, I mean, Lucifer couldn't do it. It's idolatry if we end up thinking more about ourselves in the midst of that mind, those moments.
Speaker 2:And that's why I think it's so good and important to understand excellence is a tool. So excellence is a really good servant and a really bad master. That's good, that's good. So if you can get really good at being subconsciously unaware of how good you are. That's why pianists are my violinists when they just, oh my goodness, and they just take us on this journey and even spoken word artists, they could just like beautify everything and make it so like if you can get really good at being excellent at your thing and learn the art of pointing that, taking that thing and pointing it back to the one that gave it to you in the first place, That's how you win against the trap of pride.
Speaker 2:If you think too much of yourself or you think too that it was self, it's both leading to pride.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I believe that.
Speaker 2:I believe that. And that's what God opposes and that's what breaks us because we're so busy thinking. I don't want this to make it all about me. You won't if your heart posture is Jesus. Could I serve So Christ I don't know, I I really connect with that challenge because it took, I mean, took me about fifteen years.
Speaker 2:I know I look like a baby but it took years for me to understand It's real. What it looks like to go, I am awesome at this and it's not mine. I'm a steward at best of this thing that God's given me and he's gonna call me to account and be like, what'd you do with that thing I gave you? What'd you do with that thing, I get Is it under the bed? Because if it's under the bed, get that thing out you lazy little girl.
Speaker 2:But you know what happens to people like that, right?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I don't wanna be that girl. I wanna be the one that's like, I did this with it and it was amazing and this and this and multiplied this and da da da da da. And everyone thought I was crazy but it was for you.
Speaker 1:It was all for you. That's the part. It was all for you.
Speaker 2:And that's when you get the well done, good and faithful one. I'm so proud of you. You have more. Give as much as you could at that time. Oh God, I didn't ask for that.
Speaker 2:In His strength, we could
Speaker 1:do all things through Christ, right? He who strengthens us. Well, that's so, this is so rich and I just believe it's gonna help someone. And I think as we're closing out this conversation, what would you say to the person who maybe worship and praise when it comes to that form of our worship? Yeah.
Speaker 1:That it's new for them, that freedom in that area is they've just not felt it or tasted it yet. How would you encourage them Who? To grow Yeah.
Speaker 2:In their praise? Yeah. Oof, growing your praise. Okay, I think the first thing is to realize the true identity of every Christian. Like so often I think sometimes when you are struggling to understand what you're made for, who you are in Christ, you don't know how to say thank you for something you don't ever know was given because you're too busy locked in this stronghold.
Speaker 2:I think so often when people are undoing strongholds and it's like re unlearning something and relearning, you just gotta go like riding a bike. Some days you're gonna do it and you're gonna fall on your face but you just gotta get back on that bike and don't be afraid of failure. Failure is a sign that you're trying. Ain't that guy? He's so good.
Speaker 2:You're trying. Yeah. And so you just keep entering into His presence. Maybe it's five minutes of silence. Maybe your worship is a, I'm just going to learn how to listen.
Speaker 2:Because I find that when I'm in true like deep worship, I am listening more than like what are you trying to do now? What are you trying to say in this moment? How can I offer up a praise that is different? Like you could be singing seven services and every service is different because he's doing something different. Right.
Speaker 2:And so instead of going inward, I go outward. But what are you doing over here? Talk to me, I'm listening. And then I learn how to actually listen and write it down and for some people being with nature is their worship. Some people is just listening to music and learning the power of what they're doing and replicating.
Speaker 2:Sometimes and this was for me, I've just whether I knew them or not, I'd find someone that was going ahead of me that inspired me that I wanted to see was doing and they had the fruit of a worshiper that was truly and then I would just, what did they do? How did they do? Let me study that way and then realize that yes, my journey is but there are principles that I can take and I can learn and I can be disciplined in and know that there are days where I will not want to get into my Bible but I will do it because it's worship. There's days where if God's calling me to be a really good steward of my instrument or my singer, I don't feel like practicing but I will because I wanna become this person. There are so many things that it and every person's journey is not the same.
Speaker 2:I find that I'm learning how to I'm learning and relearning every year how to worship God in a way that he's asking us to worship him in this season. And every time the world does something, my worship shifts because I'm like, Lord I don't wanna be caught unawares. And so I think to the new person if this is new to you, if you're, I find that there's some people who would just have just been so closed off to it for so long or just didn't understand it for so long. I think the first place to start is just the soft heart. Just going I don't understand Lord but I'm willing to try.
Speaker 2:I don't get it but I'm willing to stay good enough to listen and be student again. Now you can't teach old dog new tricks but if you're willing to learn the student way, like practice the presence, learn the spiritual practices and just like delve into it, immerse yourself in there. There's nothing like it. Feel so I don't know if that's helpful. I feel that is so helpful.
Speaker 2:I think there's so much that could be said. Yeah. Fistful for hours.
Speaker 1:Oh, we could and I think we'll have to talk again because it's so rich and I thank you just for pouring your heart out and I know it's blessing someone right now. And so thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming and talking on The Overflow. And we are so glad that you joined us today, and we can't wait for the next conversation.
Speaker 1:We'll see you again on The Overflow.