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A father and daughter discuss life across their generations. Science, medicine, music, and whatever else they choose to discuss are on the table.
Aubrey
00:00
Well, welcome back to Generations. I'm one of your co-hosts, Aubrey.
Peter
00:04
And I am your other co-host, Peter.
Aubrey
00:07
Dad, how are ya?
Peter
00:09
I am okay. I am looking forward to not being alone in an empty house.
Aubrey
00:15
Yeah, I can I can bet.
Peter
00:15
I'm also looking forward to not having to stress about feeding a gecko or getting crickets. Because I ran out of crickets.
Aubrey
00:24
I forgot about that little guy.
Peter
00:25
I ran out of crickets on Sunday. On Monday I went to Petco to get them and they're like Yeah, we don't have any. I'm like, what?
Aubrey
00:33
And they're out of crickets
Peter
00:34
They're like, yeah, they're like, hopefully we'll get some tomorrow. Hopefully the truck that's coming is gonna bring some.
00:40
But uh our last shipment, it was so hot in transport that most of them were dead.
Aubrey
00:45
Oh no Yikes
Peter
00:46
So I call Tuesday. Do you have crickets? Nope. Didn't get any today. I'm stressing because I haven't fed the gecko for a day now. Fortunately, I called PetSmart and they're like, yep, we got some. So I go to PetSmart and they're like small or large. And I was like 30 medium. And he's like small or large.
01:05
I'm like, I guess large. Oh boy, I had to close that door very many times since I bought those Tuesday because there was one big sucker up there who just thought it was high time for him to be chirping all the ding dang day.
Aubrey
01:19
That's crazy. Yeah, I didn't even think about how they would be loud.
Peter
01:23
The medium ones do not.
Aubrey
01:23
That's crazy.
Peter
01:25
The larger they get, the more noise they make, and they will totally do the cricket chirp thing that you're used to.
Aubrey
01:30
That's so funny.
Peter
01:31
But But you know, they're kind of hard to grab, so I didn't want to like I'm trying to pick them up one at a time and drop them in.
Aubrey
01:33
Oh man
Peter
01:38
So I'm like, if I get the small ones, I'll never be able to get those little suckers
Aubrey
01:41
Yeah.
Peter
01:42
But they'll be home hopefully about eight o'c or eleven o'clock tonight, and I will no longer be flying solo in the house, which I've been doing now for 10 days.
Aubrey
01:52
Yep, that's a long time to be alone in the house.
Peter
01:54
Needless to say, I've made it through most of my podcasts, and there's been a lot of just mindless TV where honestly I'm just the TV's just on so that there's the voice of other human beings.
Aubrey
01:57
Mm-hmm.
02:05
Yep, and that's fair. That's super valid.
Peter
02:07
But how have you been?
Aubrey
02:09
I've been pretty good. Um, we only have like two more weeks of summer camp or three 'cause there's like an extra final week that's all fancy and you do field trips every day, so I'm not really counting that, but So I will be going back to part time after that instead of all day every day.
Peter
02:29
And I'm sure that it you'll miss the part the full-time paycheck.
Aubrey
02:29
Um
Peter
02:33
You will not miss the full-time with these little kids, maybe, I'm guessing.
Aubrey
02:37
Yes, yep, that would be correct. That would be correct Um, they are funny though, I will say. Like these they're they're enter it's entertaining to be with them all day 'cause you just get their whole like when it's after school, they're like tired from school, also antsy from school, so they're kind of
Peter
02:54
Sure, sure.
Aubrey
02:56
Just there's a certain vibe, but I get them all day. All day. And it's yeah, it's quite a lot. But But it's been good. I've been doing a lot of a lot of hiking still.
03:08
Um I've been going on a few hikes a week and we've explored some fun places that are close to home. So that has been fun. Um just to get outside and see some cool things. So yeah, yeah, I've been pretty good.
Peter
03:23
Good, good, excellent.
Aubrey
03:25
But um Yeah, so for today's today's topic kind of came to me. Um I've been just kind of thinking about it for a while, especially being out of school and like Hayden and I moving to a whole new state. Um the topic we're gonna talk about today is making friends in adulthood slash building a community in adulthood.
03:53
Um especially where um there's not forced so s socialization events like there is in college 'cause that's kind of a whole different beast um from when you're just working versus in school. So I I will kind of start off the the topic with when I really started thinking about this. was um so I'm gonna dive into a little bit of a story. Um basically my whole life, as you know, I've been pretty extroverted um as a person, definitely like gain energy from talking to people and feel like I'd come home from hanging out with friends and like be energized. Um that was filling my cup.
Peter
04:36
And and to the And to that point, I just want to say, I mean, we saw this as a when you were very young. You were the kind of kid who Didn't matter where we were, we were at like in one of the playplaces in a mall or even like waiting at an airport or something like that. And Almost every single time you'd show up with some random kid and we'd be like, oh Habri, who's that? And you'd be like, oh, this is so-and-so my best friend
Aubrey
05:03
Yeah.
Peter
05:03
And it was like, you know, you just barely met and instantly you and this little whoever this little kid were, you guys were just tight.
Aubrey
05:05
Yeah.
05:10
Yep.
Peter
05:11
Like you just you made friends easily everywhere you went, you would instantly make friends with
Aubrey
05:11
Yep
Peter
05:17
Whatever other kids were there and stuff.
Aubrey
05:19
Mm-hmm. Exactly. And I definitely feel like COVID specifically kind of made me feel like I turned into an introvert. I know I've said that before on the podcast, but um, it really felt like it's flipped my whole perception of myself and made me think that I s started to Like I thought I had just lost the extroverted trait just like in general. I thought I Well like especially going back to school senior year of high school after quarantine and everything.
Peter
05:52
Mm-hmm.
Aubrey
05:52
There was a few things like, you know, senioritis. I was kinda sick of the people I was g I was in high school with, as you are.
05:58
I was kinda sick of Pocatello and so I was not really into uh the idea of like b being super social at school. I kinda just wanted to get through the year and graduate and get out. Um but even even with that I was way less social like at school and at dance. than I used to be, like senior year of high school after COVID, um quarantine specifically. Um and then it kind of just kept following into college where I had like the first few months of college, I of course know nobody. And so I really did try hard to like push past the social anxiety I was constantly feeling. 'Cause again, I had convinced myself I'm not a social person. This is gonna be really hard for me, I'm gonna need to put in extra effort to make new friends.
06:52
Um And I like made a few friends that then were connected to other friends. Like I made friends with the super extroverted people. And then I kind of just stopped because I was like, well, then then I found like my best friend who was obviously still best friends with her to this day. But then I was like, well, I have my boyfriend and then I have my best friend. I don't really need anyone else. So then I kind of just stopped trying. And Then, you know, years past whatever.
07:28
Here I am now. Um, and I I when I came to Salt Lake a few months like at the beginning of June, um I was hanging out with my best friend and then our other friend who is just the most social butterfly person I've ever seen in my life. social zy social anxiety fears her. She is just sh if she has a thought to compliment someone or say hi to someone or say anything to a stranger, she doesn't even think about it. She immediately says, Oh my gosh, I love your shirt. Where'd you get it? Oh my gosh, I love this, whatever. Like, she doesn't even think about it and has no fear if it's the right thing to say or the w a weird thing to say.
08:11
She just has no fear. And I don't know why it took You know, six years since COVID and that little trip for me to be like, wait a second. But just kind of spending that weekend with her and seeing her Be so social, I was like, I think that I am still an extroverted person. I just have to push past all these walls that I've built up in my brain.
Peter
08:37
Mm-hmm.
Aubrey
08:37
Um, so I've so I've just really been thinking a lot about what it is like to make friends as an adult, especially just working and not in college, what it would be like for you um in your I hate saying in your in your old age. In your old age now, but also, you know, at my age.
Peter
08:55
Middle age, in my middle age
Aubrey
08:56
Yeah.
08:57
In your in your middle age. And then also how it was for you uh in your twenties as well because there wasn't really the social internet and stuff like that in the way that it is today. So
Peter
09:11
Yeah.
Aubrey
09:12
That's how I came to this topic.
Peter
09:14
Okay
Aubrey
09:14
That's the long spiel. So, do you have any starting any starting thoughts?
Peter
09:19
I will tell you, I am absolutely not an extrovert. I am an introvert, though I think over time I have come to describe myself as a social introvert. So I like talking to people. I enjoy When I'm at work, I like talking to uh to you know the our other surgeon, to our PAs, to just sitting and talking to our nurses or a manager. If I'm in between cases, I or in between patients.
Aubrey
09:48
Mm-hmm.
Peter
09:49
I I like, I I enjoy talking to people when I'm in the OR, hanging out in the lounge, again, in between surgeries, that kind of stuff. It's not that I run away from that But for me, so so I do like being social, but for me, large groups of people where I don't know the majority of people.
10:10
Makes me very uncomfortable. And then also I am very uncomfortable when people pay attention to me. I like to just kind of be in a group and be chatting and stuff, but I don't really like people paying attention to me. And so that's where I look at that stuff and I go, no, I'm definitely introverted, but it doesn't mean that being around and I think this is where people Like I think the idea of extrovert and introvert gets becomes too reductive when people are just like, oh, being an extrovert when you're around other people, it charges your battery. And if it drains your battery, you're an introvert. Well, I think it's more complicated than that. Shocking, right? But again, that's why I find that Being around people I know and I'm comfortable with and I'm friends with and have a relationship with already, I find that energizing.
11:04
For me, it's the the part that's draining is when I have to be around a lot of new people who I don't know and and I think they're going to try and get to know me. Now if I'm just asking people about them and learning about other people, I'm cool with that. It's when they start asking me about me that I'm like, oh, we don't need to do that. You know.
Aubrey
11:25
Right.
Peter
11:25
So so that's where I'm coming from. And I think I've kind of always been that way. I've always had a fairly small group of friends, but I feel like it was a pretty solid group of friends, up until I reached about your age.
Aubrey
11:35
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Peter
11:40
And so, you know, when I I got home from my mission, had some good friends with roommates and and a group good group of friends. Then fairly quickly got married.
11:50
A bunch of us that summer got married. And so then those of us who were married kind of started hanging out more because
Aubrey
11:57
Yeah.
Peter
11:57
We'd all been friends before and now we could hang out. And so uh we hung out like that, but really when I went to medical school, it all just went down the crapper.
Aubrey
12:06
Mm-hmm.
Peter
12:10
Just all of it.
Aubrey
12:10
Mm-hmm.
Peter
12:12
So I get to medical school. I'm in a class of very intelligent, very talented people who Some of them were very young. Those who did like to do stuff socially, their idea of a great weekend was the less they remembered because of how drunk they got of during the weekend, the better the weekend was. So I wasn't going to be hanging out with them.
Aubrey
12:34
Hmm.
Peter
12:36
We had Jess, you know, halfway through first year, you joined the family.
Aubrey
12:36
Right.
Peter
12:41
And so out of a hundred students, I was the only one with children.
Aubrey
12:42
Mm-hmm.
Peter
12:45
And there were only three three or four of us who were even married. And so I didn't have much in common with my medical school classmates, and there really wasn't time. During the bookworks year, year, uh the bookwork year, because at my medical school it was only one year instead of the usual two, you know, it was class was eight to ten hours a day, and then I would get home. help with dinner, help get Jess in bed, help, you know, with you after you joined, and then either study or study a little bit, go to bed early, get up at two or three in the morning and study before I went back into school. So there was no time there.
Aubrey
13:19
Mm-hmm.
Peter
13:20
Uh on the clinical rotations, you know, you you'll talk to the people who you're on the rotation with, but that's it. You're not making friends.
13:27
And then in residency, you spend all of your time with these people and so while I considered my fellow residents friends we didn't hang out outside of work we didn't communicate outside of work In part because when you spend a hundred plus hours with certain with like this small group of people a week, you kind of don't want to see them
Aubrey
13:50
Right, right
Peter
13:50
When you're not at work. And so it was like this forced, you're with each other so much that when you're not with each other, you're like, no, I don't want to be around you. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to hang out.
Aubrey
14:03
Yep, you need a break.
Peter
14:05
Yeah, so so it was really hard. And then I got to, you know, I got here in my mid-30s, and now I'm starting to practice from scratch. And I'm building it up and I'm on call all the time.
14:16
And it just was really a thing that I will be honest, especially, you know, I had some friends, um I I had some friends in undergrad. I had some friends that were other couples that we kind of were friends with, but then as soon as I was in grad school from there on out, it really and truly was just there wasn't realistically a time and a way to make friends and build those friendships, other than we're friendly with each other and we maybe call each other friends because we spend so many hours with each other at work. So, I mean really up until my 40s, that was what making friends was like. If I worked with you and saw you there, we would be friendly. If I didn't, there was zero chance.
Aubrey
15:06
Yep. Yep, yep, and that's super fair.
Peter
15:11
Even stuff like at church, it because I was so tired and because I was so busy that it was like
Aubrey
15:14
Yeah.
Peter
15:20
Uh I'll see you and I'll be friendly to you here, but we're not hanging out. I don't I I don't have the time or the energy to hang out
Aubrey
15:29
Right, and I was literally gonna say I feel like meds obviously med school has dialed back its intensity in terms of like you know, a hundred hour weeks and stuff like that these days, but even still like being in med school
Peter
15:44
Yeah.
Aubrey
15:47
is kind of the occupation that I would expect you to have no energy outside of like what you're doing. Like It's not gonna be uh all right, I'm done for the day. I'm gonna go hang out with some friends. It's like I'm gonna be done for the day and go home and go to bed, and then just wake up.
Peter
16:04
Well, and not even no energy, but very little desire because
Aubrey
16:10
Yep.
Peter
16:11
You've spent your entire day dealing with the problems of other people.
Aubrey
16:17
Mm-hmm.
Peter
16:18
I mean, that's that's my job. My job is to spend the entire day Dealing with people's problems. And I love it and it's great. I'm not complaining about it, but that is a thing that when you are kind of an introvert like I am. And you've got all these people who need stuff from you all day long, and it's not just patients, but it's because I'm kind of the boss, it's the staff. and it's the administration and it's it's you know I I I have if I see 30 people in a day in clinic, well I still probably had a hundred and twenty requests of my time, energy, thoughts, opinions, that sort of thing throughout the course of a day.
17:00
So sometimes, you know, like you do that, you get home and it's just like That's it. I'm tapping out. I'm tapping out for the day. I'm good. And so it is it is a difficult environment in which to have and maintain close friendships.
Aubrey
17:16
Yeah. Yeah, and would would you say you were on purpose choosing work over making friends or
Peter
17:27
Yes. No, I fully admit.
Aubrey
17:28
You yeah, like you made the conscious decision.
Peter
17:29
I fully admit that was a that was a conscious choice.
Aubrey
17:32
Yeah.
Peter
17:33
And in looking back on how would I do it differently if I was going back to twenty-six year old me who was starting medical school.
Aubrey
17:40
Mm-hmm.
Peter
17:41
I I I don't know that I would do it differently. I don't know that I could do it differently. I'm sure there's some way, some outside person with outside knowledge and a vast understanding of the workings of the universe.
Aubrey
17:47
Right.
Peter
17:53
Who could come to me and say, oh, look, here's how you could do it differently. But I look at it and go, no, I the sacrifices that I made to get to this point. I wouldn't get to where I am in life without making those sacrifices over again.
18:09
And the good news is I like where I am in life I've got you guys.
Aubrey
18:14
Mm-hmm.
Peter
18:15
I have an incredible family. I love y'all. I now finally, and we can talk about this in a bit, but you know, I want to I want to get back to you. I have a very good group of friends who I do stuff with regularly I work with people who I really like and value and enjoy working with. And and I look at where I am and I truly say, if I was to go back and say, oh, do it differently. Don't work as hard. Don't do this.
18:39
Don't do that. I I don't know if I would end up in the same place. And so I would be like, no, this is what you gotta do to get to a good place.
Aubrey
18:47
Yeah. Yeah, 'cause you had to get there somehow. It's like it's if you were to make room for socialization and friends, you probably wouldn't have done as well. or other things would have gotten in the way or something in med school anyways.
Peter
18:59
Yeah, something. Something would have had to get cut.
Aubrey
19:02
Yeah. Yeah. And and for me I kind of I kind of do think if I were to go back and at least do undergrad Again, I would have tried way harder to be social. I think if I knew um how much harder it is to like just be in proximity to a lot of people in the stage I am of life right now.
19:29
versus like obviously in college I'm around a million people for classes every day. Um so much more opportunity.
Peter
19:33
Yeah.
Aubrey
19:34
Like if I had known it wasn't like just how much harder it would be, I definitely would have tried harder, especially in like sophomore and junior year specifically. Senior year is when like our Astro our kind of astro co cohort kind of got it like gets smaller and smaller the more as people like branch out from the general physics track off to like astro and applied and you know, whatever. So then it kind of I started having the same people in the same classes for every for every single uh semester like the last two three semesters. So I don't really fault myself there because I did make some friends there, but I just wish I had done it earlier.
20:22
You know? I think I would have been happier. I think I would have had a better time. I think And I'm not saying I necessarily regret anything that I did or I don't know. Like I'm not that hard on myself because I know what my mindset was like and I know how drained and busy I really was.
Peter
20:41
Well, and I mean, let's be honest, wasting all you're doing if you regret what happened is you're just wasting energy.
Aubrey
20:41
Um
20:48
Right. Right, exactly.
Peter
20:49
It's not like your regret your regret's gonna fix anything.
Aubrey
20:49
So it's not worth it. Right. So I like don't I don't fault myself for any choices that I made, but I definitely I think I would have had a better time in general. Um I think I was, again, in the mindset where I thought it was going to drain me a lot to hang out with people, but it it wasn't really going to. Like even now, as I'm and again we'll talk about this in a bit as well, as I've been hanging out with more people, people I don't know very well, afterwards, I am like a chatterbox. Like I am so energized.
Peter
21:24
Yeah.
Aubrey
21:26
Even after I'll give a quick example.
21:28
We played a big board game on Friday. Six-hour long board game.
Peter
21:32
Geez, what was it?
Aubrey
21:33
Six hours.
Peter
21:34
I'm curious. What was it?
Aubrey
21:35
Oath
Peter
21:36
Okay
Aubrey
21:37
Um, have you ever played O Oath before?
Peter
21:39
No, I'm not familiar with it.
Aubrey
21:41
Um super cool. Um I think you would like it Maybe actually. I actually don't know what you look for in a board game. What do you look for in a board game? It's really long. It's really strategizing and you're like super strategy and you're supposed to like lie and be really like cunning and you know, betray other people. Um so the turns just take really really long time.
22:02
Anyway, the point is S after like a six hour long session, everyone finally goes home and I'm still like yapping. I'm like, wait, that was great. And you know, talking about everything that's happening in the game, I'm like not even tired, even though it's three hours past our normal bedtime.
Peter
22:19
Sure, sure
Aubrey
22:21
So I think again, I it's all about how I was perceiving myself where I was like, well, I'm just gonna be drained if I go do this or put in this effort or what if I say something weird to this person, so I'm not going to. Like I don't wanna um introduce myself to my fellow students because I just want to pay attention and take my notes and leave because whatever. Like I just never thought anything was worth it, but it absolutely would have been.
22:48
Because then I kind of turned into the person who was always sitting alone at lectures, always sitting alone during discussions, and then it'd be like turn to your partner, discuss something, and I have n I had no one next to me. So I just would s sit there.
Peter
22:59
Yeah, I'm not going to be able to do that.
Aubrey
23:00
And it was miserable. And then I would end up not wanting to go to the discussions. So then if attendance wasn't required, I wouldn't go. And then I'm missing out on the, you know, in person class time that is still like pretty valuable. Um And even if the class time itself is not valuable, it's still valuable to be in proximity to other human beings. And and even if I wasn't going to become besti besties
Peter
23:23
Definitely.
Aubrey
23:28
with all these people, it's still really valuable to have more superficial human connection as well.
23:35
Like you can have acquaintances and that is still good for you socially. You don't have to be besties. But I don't think I really understood that. Um but like until now. Until like two months ago. It's just silly.
Peter
23:53
I mean, hey look, you got there twenty years earlier than I did.
Aubrey
23:53
But here we are.
24:00
Yeah, so I was gonna ask how how did your friend group now come to be? I know it was only a few years ago.
Peter
24:07
You know, honestly, it happened because of Dungeons and Dragons. Yet hundred percent did. And I have a lot of thoughts about it. This is something I'm actually working on and I I think I'm gonna have some content about this down the road But it it started with a group of us having a shared curiosity. I wouldn't even say interest. It was a group of us who were like. We've never played this, but it might be fun. And oh, you feel the same way. And oh, you feel the same way.
24:42
And the next thing we knew, there was like. four or five of us who'd never played DD before, but all finally voiced aloud that we've been interested in this. I mean I've been interested in DD since the eighties and before it got hit with the satanic panic and I had to burn my Choose Your Own Adventure books that were published by TSR, which was the comp I didn't burn, I had to throw them away
Aubrey
24:53
Yeah.
Peter
25:06
That was the company that um that at the time owned Dungeons and Dragons before it was Wizards of the Coast and then Hasbro and all this stuff. And so it was a group of us who talked to each other at work, who were friendly with each other at work. then saying we had a shared curiosity and then reached out to someone and said, Hey, would you be interested in helping, you know, taking us through D D and playing? And this person very gracious was like, Yeah, that sounds like a ton of fun. Let's do it. It still took a lot of time. I remember I would pull up to the individual whose at whose house we played.
25:50
I would pull up to their house and I would sit in my car for a couple minutes and do some deep breathing exercises and try and get my social anxiety to just shut up before I could get out And walk in and go um go and play. And so I think that I've always been A little shy and a little socially anxious. But I think those decades of not really having connections with people outside of at work at all really ramped that social anxiety up a lot and made it very difficult for me.
Aubrey
26:27
Totally.
Peter
26:29
So I'd really reached a point where at work I was very comfortable putting on a facade. Acting friendly, chatting with people, acting like I was comfortable, people talking to everybody, but it was incredibly exhausting because that was not how I really felt. But I could do it because it was what was both needed in terms of taking care of of my patients, but expected in terms of, you know, people's expectations of me.
Aubrey
26:46
Right.
Peter
26:57
And so that carried over into when we started playing DD.
27:01
But over the course of that, it really that has faded dramatically. I can't say that that social anxiety has vanished. but it has faded dramatically to the point that I really don't feel it like I used to. I'll get little hints of it here and there if I'm really going to a place where there truly is nobody that I'm going to know. But it doesn't like it doesn't bother me. I can I can notice it and go, yeah, I'm not surprised I'm feeling it right now, and then go, but who cares? It's no big deal and move on.
Aubrey
27:32
Yeah,
Peter
27:32
And there's a few interesting things about the DD itself that I think really made this so sticky. And that is number one. you felt obligated to show up rather than if it was a bunch of us getting together and playing poker, let's say, or something like that.
Aubrey
27:48
Mm-hmm.
Peter
27:50
We were part of a group, and so you felt Other people were relying on your character being there. When you've only got a party of four to six characters, if one person doesn't show up and they're running one to two characters you could be in some serious trouble. And so you felt motivated to show up to support the other people. At the same time, you've become invested in the story of the campaign we were playing. You've become invested in your characters who you've been building over time. You've created them, you've come up with backstories. So there's more of an investment. There's more hooks to make sure that you're still going and make that social interaction and those friendships sticky.
28:33
And then a really cool thing that I've realized Is because we all work with each other, it is very common for us a day or two after a session or a day or two before the next session, we're talking about it at work. Like, oh my gosh, this thing was so cool. Or oh it was so funny when this. Or oh man, what are we going to do? How are we going to solve this puzzle? How are we going to get out of this situation? And so the stickiness of it extends beyond the sessions where we're now communicating with each other in between sessions. And then because we're communicating with each other in between sessions about the game, we also talk about other stuff And so I've found that it seems to me to be something for middle-aged, bunch of middle-aged white dudes, which is what we are, but it's been extremely Sticky in getting us to be committed to this.
29:27
We had a couple months where we took a break for reasons that I don't want to go into. uh and and most of the group we all kind of came back together and said no we we really miss this we need this and so like i say it's been in the last four or five years where i've realized No, having a group of people who I get together with regularly, that I socialize with, and that then that extends to when I'm talking to them and communicating with them multiple times a week in between uh gaming sessions. about not just what we're doing, but then it gets us talking about other things. It's been incredibly powerful. I think, especially men, adult men. I think they are pretty bad at making and maintaining friendships.
Aubrey
30:13
Yeah
Peter
30:13
I I think I think women tend to be better. I realize I'm making generalizations, but I look at things like It isn't very common for guys to have a regular book group and go to brunch and
Aubrey
30:28
Mm-hmm.
Peter
30:30
do a lot and do a lot of these things that women tend to be more likely to do that gives them opportunities to socialize.
30:39
I have come to the belief that I think this is one of the reasons why adults golf. Golf itself looks boring as crap. I know people love it. I know they think it's the best thing ever, and I love that for them. But I also think one of the reasons people feel as strongly about golf as they do is because it is a thing where they regularly get back together and and they don't just go and play golf. They also socialize and they strengthen those friendship bonds.
Aubrey
31:06
Yeah. Right
Peter
31:08
But I do feel like I feel like, you know, again, you as a kid, you just run into a kid and instantly, boom, we're friends.
Aubrey
31:17
Mm-hmm.
Peter
31:17
I feel like as adults, a lot more often we need a reason. We need a reason to get together. We need a reason to do it because Because life's busy.
31:28
We're all busy. We're all tired. We all have a lot going on. And it gets really, really easy to be like, oh, never mind. You see all of those, you know, Instagram reels and TikTok videos where it's like the you know the the people celebrating because the other person canceled their plans and it was the best thing ever.
Aubrey
31:44
Mm-hmm.
Peter
31:45
And I get it.
Aubrey
31:45
Right.
Peter
31:46
There's that temptation to feel that way. But that's the issue is if we don't have a reason, a lot of times we're not gonna get together. And so I think that's I think that's the big difference.
Aubrey
31:55
Right.
Peter
31:58
The older I've gotten is realizing No, you sometimes have to come up with a reason to make the the the to make friends.
Aubrey
32:05
Yeah.
Peter
32:08
You gotta you gotta have a reason to make friends and a reason to then get back together with those friends.
Aubrey
32:08
Right. Right. And it Right, exactly, like the repetitive thing as well. And it it doesn't need to be you know, an elaborate hangout all night, super high energy activity. Like I think we've kind of in in that sort of vein where the the memes of, Oh, I didn't want to go out tonight and now the other person's cancelling and oh like thank God we're not going. I didn't even want to go anyways. But it's like, well then choose something you're gonna enjoy.
32:41
Why can't you do something chill? You know, like w we can do things that are chill. There's so m there's infinite activities and and things to do to pass the time that people will enjoy that people have mutual interests in um that are worth doing if it means you're gonna have the social interaction. Especially it feels like in this day and age, um, where social interaction just f feels like it's put like pretty low on the priority list. 'cause there's just not I don't know. Th with the social internet there's like the digital sort of, you know, replacements where people are just on social media instead or texting or whatever and they think that that i is Replacing the social interaction, like that's filling the cup that they need to fill. But it definitely can supplement, but not replace.
Peter
33:40
So Yeah, so so this is interesting. I I did a deep research dive into this very topic. And and that was one of the questions that I looked into to see is there data that really backs that up? Because intuitively we would think, oh, well, it makes sense. Interestingly, there isn't actually good data to back this up. I think that one thing that is important is to understand is that humans are excellent at distracting themselves, period. So in some studies where they act that I was able to find where they actually did have people cut back their social media use. They didn't socialize more. You know what they did? Is they dinked around on different apps more.
Aubrey
34:25
You just do other things on your phone. Yeah.
Peter
34:27
It's exactly right.
Aubrey
34:28
I actually saw that in a in a podcast episode uh like a science episode too where they were like if they deleted social media were they on their phone less?
Peter
34:38
No, they just did different things.
Aubrey
34:38
No. They were just on other apps.
Peter
34:40
Yeah.
Aubrey
34:40
Yeah
Peter
34:41
And interestingly, the people who tend to be the heaviest users of social media actually also socialize the most in real, in like in Meat Space.
Aubrey
34:48
Exactly, exactly. Yep
Peter
34:51
So it's a tricky one. Um I think that it it can give us a pastiche of social interaction. and make us think we're doing it. But it's interesting that thus far the evidence doesn't really back that up. Now, again, do I think that means this has been conclusively proven or disproven? Of course not. because these types of studies are really hard to do because so much of it is self-reported.
35:19
So, you know, that's the other thing we're we're dealing with here is is we're dealing with data that is not entirely objective.
Aubrey
35:27
Right.
Peter
35:28
But I think that it's I think it's interesting. It it's there are so here's what I'd say.
Aubrey
35:31
Yeah.
Peter
35:34
There is no shortage of distractions in our lives. Whether it is social media or again, just every other app on your phone, or it's YouTube, or it's Netflix, or it's listening to music, or it's video games, or Books, we'd like to say, although it's pretty alarming if you look at the data on how many people read books in a year and stuff like that over the last few years. It's
Aubrey
36:01
I'm sure it's really bad.
Peter
36:01
Boy, that's some scary stuff. Those are scary numbers there that I've I don't I haven't really dived into them.
Aubrey
36:04
Yeah.
Peter
36:06
I've just kind of glossed over it, but It's it's made me all the more I'm like, okay, okay, what book am I working on?
36:13
I gotta be reading a book.
Aubrey
36:13
Yeah, yeah
Peter
36:13
I gotta re-reading the I can't fall into that category. But but anyway. There are so many different ways for us to be distracted that it becomes very easy for socialization to be moved to the wayside.
Aubrey
36:29
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I always think it's gonna be more work than it actually is like making any sort of social
36:44
Um what's the word? I don't know. Any sort of intentional social action, I guess I'll say. um is never as much work as I think it will be. Like if I'm at the gym and I really like a girl is wearing a really cute workout set and I'm like, I should compliment her. If I actually sit and overthink about how and when to go tell her I like her workout set, that is way more energy than me just going up to her and saying, Hi, I really like your workout set. And then m m and then we talk for two minutes and then we're done.
Peter
37:16
Yeah.
Aubrey
37:19
Like it's it's never it's the overthinking and it's the psyching myself out of things that takes way more energy. than just than just doing it.
37:31
And like Right.
Peter
37:32
But but they I mean you y that's that's that's just humans, right? Like we spend so much more time and energy procrastinating doing a task than it takes to just do the task.
Aubrey
37:38
Right.
37:44
Actually do it, yeah.
Peter
37:44
We ruminate about things. I mean, how many arguments have I had in my brain? in anticipation that then never ever actually happened. Who knows I don't even want to count.
Aubrey
37:56
Right.
Peter
37:57
I I can't count that number and I don't want to know that number because it would depress me.
Aubrey
37:58
Yeah
38:01
Yep, yes, exactly.
Peter
38:02
So So that's the thing is we like you said, we're really good at going, oh, here's all the reasons this is gonna be hard or I shouldn't or whatever.
Aubrey
38:14
Mm-hmm.
Peter
38:14
And they're almost always exaggerations of reality.
Aubrey
38:19
Yep, exactly. Like the worst case scenario either won't happen or actually probably isn't that bad.
Peter
38:26
Mm-hmm.
Aubrey
38:27
Like in so man it's so many different things, but Yeah, like any time I've ever overthought a social interaction, something like s then I then I'll do it and I'm like, okay, that was so easy and it opened up this whole conversation that I'm now connecting with this person over. Like at work the other day, there was a sub there that was like helping out 'cause one of our assistant directors was out. And I like really like her and so I was like, I should try and, you know, make more of an effort to like chat to her when I can, like when I'm not actively taking care of the kids. And then I kind of overthought it for a minute and I was like, oh okay, I'll just clock back in and like walk because it was I was on my lunch break. I was like, it's okay, I'll just clock back in and leave.
39:14
And then she goes, Oh, what are you what book are you reading? And I was like, Oh, it's Obelisk Gate. It's and she goes, Oh, from the fifth season series? And I was like, Yeah You read it? And she was like, yes, like I'm obsessed with and then we go into this whole conversation about it and I was like, see, I sh why did I have to overthink it 'Cause it was just not that bad and now we can connect over this book that we are reading and both like and then bam, you have like a way to connect this person.
Peter
39:32
Right.
Aubrey
39:42
And it just takes I guess it just takes those little interactions to prove my brain wrong every time. If I have evidence that it will never go as bad as my anxiety think it will go, maybe eventually.
39:58
then it will be not not that big of a deal, but um Yeah.
Peter
40:02
Yeah, it's true. Here's one thing I do think is interesting that I found in my deep dive i into social isolation, loneliness, and all that stuff.
Aubrey
40:12
Yeah
Peter
40:13
And that is if you had to guess, what do you think what age group has seen the largest decrease in socialization?
Aubrey
40:21
Is it my age group?
Peter
40:23
Like eighteen to twenty-nine.
Aubrey
40:24
Eighteen to twenty-five or so yeah, twenty-nine, yep.
Peter
40:25
Big time.
Aubrey
40:26
That would that would make sense.
Peter
40:27
Big time.
Aubrey
40:28
That would make sense.
Peter
40:28
Big time. Yeah, it's really interesting.
Aubrey
40:31
Ooh, that's just it's I've kind of seen maybe it's just cause the algorithm can read my mind. But um of course I've been seeing like videos on like why why are like no one goes to these third spaces. We need third spaces and all this stuff. Um and I kind of didn't realize how how bad it got until I was seeing these things where like Hayden and I got a library card last year and I was like, do people even still go to libraries?
41:03
Like, d are libraries still thing
Peter
41:03
Yeah.
Aubrey
41:06
Do people still go? And I mean I'll go pick up my books, but there's like only kids in there.
Peter
41:08
And they are
Aubrey
41:13
There's like at least in our specific library that's closest to us, I'm like, there's like only kids
Peter
41:19
Yeah.
Aubrey
41:19
I'm like it's I don't know and I don't know if I just am missing or not I'm just unaware of more active third third spaces, I guess. But it kind of feels like they're a little dead
Peter
41:35
So
41:37
Yeah, so that's the interesting thing because that's one of the things that's brought up a lot uh is that third places or third spaces are disappearing. Uh again, this is the weird thing, is there's so many of these things that we say, we hear, we think that don't actually necessarily
Aubrey
41:46
Mm-hmm.
Peter
41:55
I like they're not really borne out by the evidence. So I you know, I've looked at some stuff again about this that shows that you know There really isn't this discrete temporal decrease in the number of third spaces, with the exception
Aubrey
42:12
Yeah
Peter
42:14
of around nineteen tw or twenty twenty to twenty twenty one and twenty two, because of COVID.
Aubrey
42:19
Right. Right.
Peter
42:20
But but that's the interesting thing. And and so I guess the the final thing I want to say about this topic is this. There are so many claims on the internet about the harms of social isolation and loneliness, and it's important to define these as two separate things.
Aubrey
42:41
Mm-hmm.
Peter
42:41
Um because they are social isolation is really the quantity of interactions that you're having.
42:53
I think I'm I'm pulling up my my research on this, but you know, social isolation is sort of the objective measurement, and this is again, this is the quantity.
Aubrey
42:57
Yeah.
Peter
43:04
How many people do you interact with? Loneliness is very much sort of a relationship quality problem. So they are kind of two different things where one is a quantity issue and one is a quality issue. But here's the first one that I want to just get out there and I want to I want to debunk. And this is Have you heard the claim, Aubrey, that being socially isolated is as dangerous or more dangerous to your health than smoking 15 cigarettes a day?
Aubrey
43:33
I've not heard that.
Peter
43:34
Oh, you haven't heard that one?
Aubrey
43:36
No
Peter
43:36
Oh, it's I've I've heard it, I've read it many places.
43:41
It's it's alarming.
Aubrey
43:44
All right.
Peter
43:44
It's also not real.
Aubrey
43:49
Oh, okay.
Peter
43:49
So the paper in which that came from, it was never actually cited in the paper. There was an a g an infographic on there that had smoking fifteen cigarettes on that infographic in some way, but it wasn't ever actually cited in the paper.
Aubrey
43:55
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Peter
44:05
And the authors, in retrospect, since this has taken off the authors, have said Yeah, we probably shouldn't have put that on there because it was just sort of uh we were trying to make a comparison, but it wasn't anything to which we had any data, and it has significantly outgrown itself. So I say all this to say Do I believe that social isolation can be harmful for us?
Aubrey
44:27
Mm-hmm.
Peter
44:27
Yes.
44:29
Is there good data to say how it is harmful for us? No. No, there is not. I have heard and I have personally quoted that social isolation is a huge risk factor for dementia. The data that I was able to find does not support that because part of the problem is people who are diagnosed with dementia started having symptoms of dementia in many cases years before.
Aubrey
44:58
Yeah.
Peter
44:59
It's what we call a prodrome. So when people start exhibiting symptoms of a disease before getting diagnosed with it.
Aubrey
45:02
Mm-hmm.
Peter
45:07
And so social isolation is a symptom of dementia. People with dementia automatically isolate themselves.
Aubrey
45:12
Right, it's yeah.
Peter
45:15
And so the real question then becomes, and I don't know that there's any objective way for us to prove this.
Aubrey
45:16
Right.
Peter
45:20
But again, this claim, oh, people who socially isolate are more commonly developing dementia can be flipped around and say, no, the people who are developing dementia are the ones who are socially isolating before they get the diagnosis.
Aubrey
45:20
Mm-hmm
Peter
45:34
So again, I just urge caution. I I feel that having regular social interactions with a strong group of friends and being friends with a variety of different people at work has made a huge positive impact on my life. I just from a subjective experience, it is undeniable to me that it has made a huge difference.
Aubrey
45:47
Yep.
Peter
45:53
And your mom has seen the difference in me.
Aubrey
45:54
Yeah.
Peter
45:55
And other people have seen a difference in me since this friend group and I, we get together every one to two weeks and we talk to each other all the dang time.
Aubrey
45:57
Yep.
46:03
Right.
Peter
46:03
But I want to be cautious and caution that there's tons of TED talks and newsletters and substacks and TikToks and YouTube videos. that are making claims about social isolation and loneliness that aren't backed up by the data.
Aubrey
46:18
Mm-hmm.
Peter
46:22
So we just need to be careful.
Aubrey
46:23
Right.
Peter
46:25
that we recognize it's beneficial, but let's not raise a red flag where one we don't have a good compelling reason to raise that flag.
Aubrey
46:38
Right. Yep. Yeah. And then on the flip side, for me, it is still very important. And is almost one of the most important things for me to do in this specific time of my life is to actively socialize.
Peter
46:55
Agreed. And that's why I say I have found it to be incredibly beneficial. And I think that there are benefits of it. I just want people to be cautious when they hear these alarming things like it's worse for your health than smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
Aubrey
47:09
Right.
47:12
Right.
Peter
47:12
Hold on, you know
Aubrey
47:13
It's like, well, maybe no.
Peter
47:16
There's a lot of reasons why I think I mean I personally believe humans are social creatures. We just are.
Aubrey
47:22
Yep.
Peter
47:23
We just are.
Aubrey
47:23
Yep. Yep, it's how we survived.
Peter
47:24
And if you don't have upper Yeah, like so if you don't have that, I think. You know, I I I think that that does cause harm, but at the same time, let's not, here's what I'd say, let's not guilt people. into forcing themselves to do things that they don't want to because somebody on TikTok or YouTube or something says Basically, you're going to die if you don't socialize.
Aubrey
47:54
Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I I have Definitely after I came home from my trip and I was like, wait, I have this newfound motivation to find all these friends Um, there was kind of also a at the same time a kind of a dying out of the kind of current friend group Hayden and I had here um that we like first work like put together with from Epic and everything.
Peter
48:27
Sure, sure.
Aubrey
48:27
Um And we just kind of don't have a ton of things in common, don't mesh super well, but we were kind of holding on to hanging out with these people even though I didn't really ever enjoy it that much.
48:44
Um, and I would come home and be like, I kind of wish I had done something else actually.
Peter
48:52
So that gets to the point where it's like, again It's good to be social. It's good to be with other people, but it being people you like and a good experience and a good group of people.
Aubrey
48:59
Mm-hmm.
Peter
49:06
maybe less often or whatever, that's way more important than just making yourself do it, just to do it.
Aubrey
49:09
Way yes. Yep, exactly. And my my therapist basically said the exact same thing where she's like Yes, be social and try and make friends, but don't you don't have any obligation to like force yourself to hang out with people that you don't mesh well with. Like you don't need to force yourself to do things you genuinely are not enjoying. Um I was like, yeah, you know what? You're right. So yeah, and so anyway, my my little final little thing is I kind of came home from my trip. I kind of chatted with that one friend and um my super extroverted friend.
49:53
When I came back, um, I don't even know if she listens to the podcast, but if she does, she knows who she is. Um And I was like, how do you do it? Like how do you how are you just so social but so She doesn't feel like she's putting on any facade ever. Like she is just so herself and and like she's weird. Everyone's weird. She has so many like weird, funny quirks and she is so un like just not ashamed of all of her little quirks and weird things that make her her and she just wears it on her sleeve and is just all the happier for it and I'm like, how do you how do you do this?
50:37
And she's like honest she she was like honestly it took me
50:44
um making really hard decisions in my life that kind of forced me back into situations where I needed to make friends or I was going to be really lonely. and challenging myself in like different job positions where I was forced to be really, really social. And so she was like, she was like, now I just don't even think about it. Like I do not second th I have no second thoughts. When I think I'm gonna say something to a stranger, there's I just go do it. And she was like, and I'm just all the happier for it. And so I was like, all right, that's what I'm gonna That's what I'm gonna take. I I am no longer viewing myself as an introvert because it's just not true.
51:21
And viewing myself as that was was making it more Uh, what was a negative viewing on myself. Not again, not saying it being an introvert is a bad thing, but I was putting something on myself that is not true.
Peter
51:33
No, but I was gonna say you were limiting yourself with a label that was maybe not accurate.
Aubrey
51:40
Right, exactly. Um so yeah, and now I feel like I have been I I have more friends. Hayden and I have been hanging out with people that we've been genuinely enjoying and doing fun activities that we've been really enjoying. Um And I feel I feel way more optimistic about my ability to make friends now. So yeah.
Peter
52:05
I love that. I love that. That's great news.
Aubrey
52:08
Yep. But anyways, do you have any other final thoughts or was that your final?
Peter
52:12
No, I think I have said everything that has that has meaningfully come through my brain about this.
Aubrey
52:15
Perfect.
52:19
Perfect. I do have a little Astro Fact for the day, even though I've forgotten for the last, like, I don't know, since the Artemis mission, I feel like. Um NASA is launching a new telescope, the Roman Space Telescope. I don't know if you've seen anything about it.
Peter
52:38
I have not.
Aubrey
52:38
Um it is launching nine months early. At the end of this month, it is launching.
Peter
52:42
Oh, wow. Wild
Aubrey
52:45
Um it has just this last week the team finished fueling the space telescope. They loaded 290 gallons of hydrazine fuel. Um, which is a very efficient but also very toxic uh fuel.
53:02
Um, but it's gonna be great because it is going to take pictures um like five Uh it will take more pictures in the first five to ten years than the Hubble Space Telescope will have taken in its entire lifetime. Um and has a way uh bigger like panoramic view so it will give us some very cool very cool pictures very cool data so that is very exciting so
Peter
53:29
I love that. That is awesome.
Aubrey
53:30
Yeah, yeah.
Peter
53:31
Very good.
Aubrey
53:32
Anyways, I bet you don't have a medical fact. Do you have a medical fact?
Peter
53:35
You know, I feel like enough of what we talked about today. I I threw enough medical stuff in there.
Aubrey
53:39
Those are facts, yeah.
Peter
53:41
I'm gonna I'm gonna call that good for this this time.
Aubrey
53:43
Yep. Perfect. Well, thank you everyone for listening. We'll be back in another few weeks with another topic. And Yeah, do all the things. Leave us a review. Like, comment, subscribe, whatever all the things are, and all the podcast apps. And we will talk to everyone later.
Peter
54:04
See ya