Ep. 151: Survival, Psychology, and Burnout: A Deep Dive with Megan Hine

Join me as I sit down with one of the world’s top survival experts, Megan Hine, for a raw and thought-provoking conversation. Megan is an expedition leader, the author of Mind of a Survivor, and a key figure behind some of the most extreme survival TV shows in the world. In this episode, we explore survival psychology, the power of human connection, and how the outdoors can heal and transform.

Megan opens up about her personal experiences with burnout, the lessons she’s learned from decades in high-risk environments, and the mental toughness it takes to thrive when the odds are against you. We also discuss the role of nature in balancing the chaos of modern life and how embracing discomfort can help us grow.

This is more than just a podcast—it’s a deep dive into what makes us resilient as humans. Whether you’re an outdoor enthusiast, a psychology buff, or just someone looking to be inspired, this conversation will leave you with new perspectives and actionable insights.

🔗 Connect with Megan Hine
📚 Megans Website: https://meganhine.com/
🌍 Follow Megan: https://www.instagram.com/megan_hine/

🔗 Connect with Silvercore
🎙 Subscribe for more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/c/SilvercoreCa?sub_confirmation=1
🌲 Learn more about Silvercore: https://www.silvercore.ca/

 

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Timestamps

0:00 - Intro: Megan Hine, Survival Expert & Author
2:10 - Behind the Scenes: Working on "Extracted" and Survival TV Shows
8:30 - Childhood Adventures: Megan’s Early Love for the Outdoors
14:50 - The Psychology of Survival: Why We Seek Nature
18:20 - Social Media vs. Real Connection: The Nature Disconnect
21:05 - Megan’s Battle with Burnout and the Road to Recovery
27:30 - ADD, ADHD, and Finding Strength in Challenges
33:45 - Flow State in Extreme Environments: Megan’s Climbing Philosophy
39:15 - Spearfishing and Connecting with Nature in North Wales
44:00 - The Meaning of Hunting and Food Connection
49:25 - Human Connection: The Key to Happiness and Resilience
52:10 - Lessons from Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
57:00 - Mental Toughness: Managing Mindset in Extreme Situations
1:02:00 - What Keeps Megan Centered in High-Stress Environments
1:05:40 - Final Thoughts: How Resilience and Connection Transform Lives

 

What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

Travis Bader: Joined today by one
of the world's top survival experts.

She's an expedition leader, author of
Mind of a Survivor, and a key figure

behind the scenes of some of the
biggest survival shows in the world.

She has a deep understanding of
persevering in the wild, combined with

a unique insight into the human mind.

Which allows her to help others
who work at high risk and

trauma filled environments.

Welcome to the Silvercore
podcast, Megan Heine.

Megan Hine: That's quite the introduction.

Hi, Travis.

It's great to be with you.

It's a

Travis Bader: shame we didn't

Megan Hine: quite manage to
do in person though, did we?

We've like, it almost happened
just before Christmas.

Travis Bader: So close, so close.

And you know, I, I gotta be honest,
I have wanted to have you on the

podcast for a very long time.

And when you and I were working on
that Fox show, Extracted Together,

I thought, oh, this is perfect.

You're up in Whistler
working on this new show.

I'm up there.

Surely we're going to be able to make
something Connect there, but that

was, that was my first experience
working on a larger film production.

And, um, yeah, um, apparently I
misunderstood the, uh, the time allocation

required to work on these things.

How was it for you?

Megan Hine: Oh, it was, it was brilliant.

It was a really, it
was a great experience.

And yeah, I'd love to hear
your, your side of it as well.

Cause I, our paths didn't
quite cross, uh, in the fields.

But yeah, for me it was the, cause I
was actually on screen, um, on this one.

Um, in, yeah, you know, in a role
of, uh, what, head of extraction.

So going in to rescue people
out of the terrain, um, when

things happen, which was.

I'm usually behind the scenes and I'm
usually involved like right from the very

start and all the setup and all the pieces
of the puzzle and things coming together.

So I arrived when the puzzle
was pretty much fully formed.

So it was quite unusual experience for me.

Whereas I think for yourself,
you were involved right at

the very start, weren't you?

Travis Bader: Well, yes.

At the, at an earlier point, I got a
phone call from, um, well, actually

it was Nikki, Nikki van Schindel.

And she's the past, yes.

Yeah.

She's amazing.

Yeah, she, uh, she was one of my
earlier guests here on the podcast

and, uh, she and I, uh, have a lot in
common, same favorite childhood book.

And, uh, I actually had a copy
of it in here with her when,

uh, when she came in to chat.

Um, but she says, Trav,
you know, we got this show.

And there might be some hunting on here
and the people they're from California and

they don't know the rules and the laws.

Can you, can you kind of point
them in the right direction?

I said, sure, no problem.

So I introduced them to some of
my contacts in government and the

people who they need to talk to and
they come to me and they say, well,

you know, I think we need to get
all of our contestants licensed.

Okay, sure.

That's something we do.

Yeah.

We can put a course on for you.

Not a problem, but, but there's,
there's a catch, uh, the.

They got to come in one at a time.

They can't see each other.

They can't do it in a group.

I'm like, Holy crow.

This is going to make things interesting.

So I said, tell you what, in the interest
of expediency and in the interest of

getting this, uh, done free, you know, why
don't they do BC's online course, which.

My company made, uh, why don't you
do BCs online course, and then we'll

go through one at a time and they
can challenge a test afterwards

and they would take them down.

Some of them blindfolded, some of them
they're taken through the hallways.

And yeah, that, that was a different
experience because when you're

talking to these people, of course.

The, uh, production company
doesn't tell me anything.

They won't tell me the name of the show.

They were not allowed to say
anything to the contestants.

And so the contestants are coming
in and they're saying things to

me like, oh, when my dad comes
through, you're going to like him.

I'm like, I don't see your dad on
the list here, but okay, like I'm

trying to piece things together.

Finally, I just gave in and I called up
a buddy of mine who works in transport.

And I said, what show am I working on?

What's going on?

And he knew everything.

So, uh,

Megan Hine: They're mad.

These like, these big shows are
absolutely crazy because there's

so many facets that, um, that go
into making up a show like this.

Um, and it's like, I think like the
viewer doesn't always appreciate

actually just the logistics and all the
permitting and things that go into it.

Um, I, cause I've been working in
the industry now for almost 20 years

and it's, it's changed so much.

It's like when I first started.

Like, it was, like, kind of full on, like,
cowboy style, like, you go in there, you

did whatever you wanted, like, permits
and things weren't such a big issue,

budgets were bigger, time frames were
longer, um, and it was just, you'd just

go out into these environments and just
have a laugh and just figure it out on

the fly and kind of wing it, whereas,
like, now, like, every single aspect of

it, like, you're saying, like, from the
hunting through to the technology, uh,

through every single aspect of it is just
so, so well thought out, So prepared.

And it's just insane that you
get these large numbers of

people that come together.

Cause I think on this show, there
was like over 300 people involved.

Um, you get all these people that come
together and they're like, never met.

A lot of them never met before, never
worked together, come, come together,

make this magic and then disappear off
again, never to come back together.

Well,

Travis Bader: I look at, I'm like, I don't
know how you guys are going to do this.

I'm listening behind the scenes.

You're like, oh, we
have to do swim testing.

They're going to be out of the
lake and they got to do, and all

these different testing features.

And they have to take them
one at a time, test them

individually, have the oversight.

I'm like, I don't know if you're going
to be able to pull this off in time, but

it'll be interesting to see what you do.

And sure enough, they do.

And it all comes together in the end.

Megan Hine: Every single time it's
like, I've been doing some really,

like doing some really big shows
actually the past four or five years.

I used to do like a lot more expeditions,
super remote, um, kind of very agile

shows, but somehow I ended up doing
these like big adventure, uh, sort of.

Competition shows.

Um, and it's like every single one I've
worked on, it's like, you kind of, you

come aboard and just like, there is
absolutely no way that we're going to be

able to pull this off in like the weeks
or the couple of months that we've got

here and every time, like we managed
to do it, which doesn't really help our

case because it means that like the next
time they're just like, no, so you pulled

it off, you don't need any more time.

You can have less time and less budget.

Oh, totally.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Typical union environment type mentality.

Right.

Um, so.

How did you get into this?

You've been doing this
for over 20 years now.

How did, how did this all get rolling?

Megan Hine: Uh, so I, I guess going
back to like childhood and, um, my dad,

um, was, was originally a geologist
and did a lot of expeditions, um, this

way, way before I was born, um, did
a lot of expeditions, loved rocks.

So all our family holidays, uh,
were to go and look at rocks,

get up close and personal.

Um, he did a lot of climbing, so we did a
lot of climbing, so it was like touching

the rocks, digging the rocks out, hunting
for fossils, going out, um, camping,

um, with my parents and out in the
mountains, like typically around the UK.

I'm British, I'm from North Wales, um,
and so a lot of our family holidays

were into the mountains in the UK, um,
and exploring, and I never knew that

there was a career outside of academia.

And I guess because I was the oldest
of four, it was just assumed that I

would follow in my parents footsteps
and go into teaching or doctoring

or something, get a proper job.

And it just it just kind of
never never really happened.

I got I had a place to
go into the military.

But I thought I'll take a year
out after I finished school,

I had this place to go into.

officer training in the UK, um, I
thought I'd take a year out and go,

uh, off to New Zealand, which is
somewhere I'd always wanted to go to.

I think, similar to you and Nicky
being inspired by a book, I was

inspired by this book called The Land
of the Long White Cloud, which was

Travis Bader: given

Megan Hine: to me by my, um, by some
cousins that lived in Australia,

and it was this beautiful book,
illustrated book, of like Maori culture

and their mythology and folklore.

Um, and I just, like, I'd hide under
the covers at night and read this book.

Um, and, I just, I just
wanted to go to New Zealand.

So as soon as I could, um, I figured I was
going to take a year out before going back

to the military and go to New Zealand,
uh, end up on, working on South Island.

Stroke of fate, luck, in being in the
right place at the right time, ended

up doing an apprenticeship in bushcraft
and survival and, um, taking people

out into the, into the mountains.

Um, there, and I suddenly realized
that there's actually, you

know, there's a career in this.

Um, so that's kind of
where it all started.

Travis Bader: And then at some point
you were working for a company and

they said, uh, we want, we want your
help on a, uh, this little known

film set, this guy by the name of.

Mr.

Grylls,

Megan Hine: that was like,
that was super random.

Like, cause I was, um, so I, when
I came back from New Zealand,

um, I was, I, I decided I wasn't
going to go into the military.

I actually ended up doing a degree in
outdoor studies, um, which was basically

three years of climbing on a student loan.

And, um, it was, it was awesome.

It was so much fun.

I spent my second year actually
out in the Czech Republic.

I did an exchange out there.

Travis Bader: Oh, I love it out there.

Megan Hine: Oh man, it's like, it's
so wild, and uh, I was, I went out

with a friend of mine, we bought this
like, really shitty old bus, and we

converted the back of it, and we're
like, living in the back of this in

the middle of Prague, um, and we, there
was like a language issue, and we,

they weren't really expecting us, they
didn't really know what to do with us,

so we just fucked off to Austria and
went mountaineering for, for months.

Beautiful!

Yeah, it was, it was amazing,
it was such an amazing trip,

it was a very formative trip.

Um, I, like, we, towards, like, I ended
up falling into, like, a big crevasse and

we had a bit of an epic, so we thought
we should probably, at this point, go

back and actually do some studying.

So I went back, um, um, and ended
up doing, uh, that's kind of, I

suppose, where my interest in, like,
the psychology and philosophy of

why people go into the outdoors.

kind of came from, uh, because they do,
although their, their physical side of

things, so like our outdoor adventure
pursuit sort of side of lessons were

hardcore, like super fucking hardcore,
um, in how they bring that on, uh, but

then on the flip side, they had this
really beautiful, like, philosophy and

you'd sit down and you'd talk through
why people would go into the outdoors

and the psychology behind it and our
connection with the natural world.

Which was something I'd never really
kind of thought about, uh, before.

Um, and then I came back to the
UK and ended up, um, doing an

apprenticeship, a three year
apprenticeship in bushcraft and survival.

Um, and I kind of picked up my, sort of,
British mountaineering qualifications,

climbing qualifications as well.

Um, and I, I guess I was just in this
really kind of unique Um, position that

I'd got this sort of random collection
of qualifications and experience.

I'd started leading, um,
expeditions out to the Himalaya.

This was like in my early
twenties, um, as well.

And just this combination at some
point I was working for a company

that had just taken on the consultancy
for, Um, Bear Grylls Man vs.

Wild, like his, Bear Grylls original
shows, the ones that made him really big.

And I think the first season, like, it
had just been a bunch of guys having a

laugh out in the field and there was,
like, stories of bear suits and Man vs.

Wild.

And all this stuff just like got
out into the press because nobody

knew how big it was going to be.

Right.

Yeah.

So like, right, okay, second season we
need to lock this down and we need to do

this properly so we'll bring in a team.

Um, so I was actually hired
originally to, um, to rig the stunts.

So build, like, design and build
the, the rigging challenges.

Uh, and I went along and joined
the first show that I ever did was

the only ever urban show he did.

Right.

Oh, we're filming it.

Poland and Gdansk in the, the
dockyard there, which was just nuts.

Um, and then I, I just kind of stuck,
um, as part of the team, um, and was

part of his team, um, in between working
on other shows and expeditions, um, you

know, for the next sort of 14 years.

Travis Bader: Well, you know, I, I
met him a number of years ago and,

uh, what, what do you say to me?

He says, they should call me bear.

I'm six foot, 650 pounds, big,
big beard standing beside him.

Like the TV makes, makes the perspective
off, but he's a small guy, you know,

some of the toughest people I know
are just these, these diminutive.

Small people, they can less injuries,
less weight to, uh, to lug around.

And they just, and that mindset as well.

The mindset is huge for the toughness,
but he says something about you.

He says, uh, uh, 99 percent of
the people out there, you are

tougher than 99 percent of the.

Well, 99 percent of the men he knows,
but 99 percent of the people are there.

You're tougher than that was
kind of a neat compliment.

Megan Hine: That, that was an awesome,
that was an awesome compliment.

Yeah.

That was, um, that was really cool.

And I think that's something like with
bear is that he's very loyal to his team.

Um, and it's, that's how he and
his shows have been so successful

because they're really agile shows.

So, you know, with the,
when it got to the sort of.

the Running Wilds that we did and I,
I did like six full seasons of the

Running Wilds, which is where uh, he's
going out and he's accompanied by,

you know, usually a major celebrity
or politician, um, as a guest.

Um, and you know, there's all
this stuff about it being fake and

all of this, and like, it isn't.

It's like, you know, we genuinely, at
the start of the day, Um, the cameras

switch on and they don't switch off until
they're tucked up in their shelters.

Uh, and the journey's linear, so they're
constantly moving through the environment.

The guest, you know, is
genuinely on a journey with Bear.

Um, and as a crew, you know,
we're having to adapt to that.

So, uh, often I'm, you know, attached to,
I've got a camera operator attached to me.

I usually work with, like,
the main camera operator.

So that I can then move my safety
team around the terrain and I've got

a good visual on where everybody is,
uh, and then we're, you know, we're,

we're moving through the terrain,
uh, with, with him and his guest.

And it's, you know, it's very
agile, very dynamic, very real

risks and, uh, super exciting.

Travis Bader: Well, one of the things
I think appeals to the audience and

probably appeals, I'm going to put.

Myself out there and guess it probably
appeals to you is the psychology of

the individuals when they go out into
the wild and they have a formulaic

approach to the, uh, you know, uh, the
Bear Grylls shows as they go through,

because it works where they take
somebody out, they push their boundaries.

There's a shared adversity.

There's a time to debrief
over a cup of tea.

And the insights that people share
in these, these moments is, uh,

It's really, really cool there.

You talk about the psychology
behind why people go outside.

Why do people go outside?

Megan Hine: Oh, well, I think
that there's so many different

levels to this and layers to it.

Um, but on a very fundamental
level, it's our natural habitat.

Um, I, I'm a true believer in
the fact that we haven't evolved

to live in this modern world.

Like we.

have adapted.

We haven't necessarily evolved and
we're incredible at adaptation.

Like, you know, that's what
defines us as a species.

We're absolutely phenomenal at
adapting to new environments,

new situations, new scenarios.

But it doesn't mean that we like
it or our brains can cope with it.

Um, and we look around at the modern world
around us and the fast pace it moves at.

And we look at our like primitive
survival mechanisms that are built in

us to keep us safe, that are in all
animals, um, you know, the limbic system,

that fight, flight, freeze response
that like lives within our brain.

Um, and it's like, it's
incredibly powerful.

Um, and its primary
role is to keep us safe.

So it's constantly scanning
the environment around

us, looking for threats.

Um, and that was.

at a time when, you know, we had
predators, uh, like, say, two tigers

or bear that would have, you know,
that would have been hunting us,

potentially, as we were quite vulnerable
without our, like, uh, without any fur

and claws and big teeth and things.

Um, but then We've then created
this modern world very, very fast,

and the brain, that part of the
brain, that survival part of the

brain, can't differentiate between
real versus perceived threat.

And you're seeing triggering posts on
social media triggers us in the same way

as in the same flood of chemicals as if
that saber toothed tiger was stalking us.

So I think for us actually just going
back into into nature And I think

this is where social media, I'd be
interested, you know, to hear your view

on this, but I think there's a social
media move of like extreme adventuring,

like going up Everest, going to the
South Pole, going on these like, like

massive expeditions, um, that, you
know, it's the minority of people or

adventurers going and doing these things.

And there's a big push that that's what we
should be doing on adventure, but that's

not where like the power of nature for
healing, the therapeutic applications.

Come in, it was like literally going
in your lunch break and sitting in the

local park or going for a walk in the
woods with your kids and reconnecting,

uh, with this natural world around us.

That is very much a
part of, of who we are.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I believe that.

I, and I guess the idea behind social
media pushing these extreme adventures is.

That it has to show something that'll
break a person out of their scroll,

scroll, scroll, something that'll be
eye catching enough or adrenaline kind

of dopamine fixing enough so that they
actually stop and they look at it.

But, you know, like for me
going out in the wild, I, I

need to, I need to get outside.

I need to be just by water.

You talk about listening to the birds.

I am a big believer of listening to the
birds, um, of just being present, uh,

every day, I try to find ways to deepen my
connection with the natural environment.

And I find if I don't, because, you know,
And I, I'm going to throw this back at you

because the world that we live in, having
to post stuff on social media, having to

work, you work in these Hollywood realms
with people who are a lot of type A

personalities, a lot of, a lot of energy.

Uh, a lot of people who may have never
really spent much time in the outdoors.

Um, I, I find that it can be rather.

Because if your external environment
doesn't match your internal

environment, um, there's going to
be stress associated with that.

Megan Hine: Yeah, no, absolutely.

And I think, cause we, I mean, it's a good
point, you know, you make about this, the

ever, the, or the feeling to ever need
to be upping our social media game or

upping the way that we present ourselves.

And I think, you know, this is where
actually having been a part of.

this evolution of, um,
adventure filmmaking to the

point of where it is now.

Um, having watched that journey and
actually sometimes I wonder if what

we've done is actually not that
positive because we, you know, the

media needs to sensationalize thing to,
as you say, you know, to grab people's

attention, you need to sensationalize
stuff and you know, what we're doing.

When I'm putting together a, um, like a
journey for, for, for a TV show, looking

for locations, looking for stories, we're
looking to trigger emotions in people

because that's what gets people hooked.

And it is far easier to trigger
fear and anxiety in people

than it is joy and happiness.

because of that primitive survival
mechanism, it's so easy to trigger that

and to, you know, to make people feel,
uh, fear or anxiety or to empathize

with what that person or character on
screen is going through, than it is to,

to trigger sort of joy and happiness in,
in other people, which is really sad.

It's like, what?

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Um,

Megan Hine: yeah.

So this is, and this is, and this is
like, you know, Even myself, I find

myself, um, you know, you do do the doom
scrolling and you're stuck in this like,

um, social media hole, uh, and you forget.

And it's like even working in the
industry and knowing how manipulative

it is and knowing how, you know, much
sort of Research goes in, into creating

addictive, uh, actions goes into it.

It's even then it's like you
get caught into this because our

brains just, you know, respond.

Yeah, it's scary.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Well, what, what do you do
to keep yourself centered?

Like you've talked about burnout
before, what do you do to deal with.

Burnout to deal with,
uh, every day stresses.

I mean, you're, you're dealing
in high risk environments.

There's, there's a lot of,
there's a lot of energy coming in.

What do you do to help, uh, work this
through if you can't get outside or if

you can get outside, what's your secret?

Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean, it's a
really, it's a really good question.

And, um, just pre COVID actually, because
I think for me personally, like COVID

came at a good time, like all this kind of
lockdown, personally, because leading up

to I'd just been diagnosed with burnout.

Um, and I think because I'd spent, uh,
sort of over a decade, really full time

on out on the road, um, At the time,
um, myself, my partner, we'd, we'd

been together for a, for a long time.

We were doing the same work.

Um, so we didn't really need to
go home and reconnect at home.

So we were just constantly on the road
for sort of 10, 11 months of the year.

Um, constantly bouncing time zones,
environments, you know, just before COVID,

you know, managing projects in the jungle.

And, uh, you know, so I'd have a job going
in South America, job going in China.

bouncing between those time zones,
typically cruise, international cruise.

So you're on like zoom calls, your
meetings, all hours of the day and night,

um, and managing multiple projects.

And these are all quite high risk, high
stress, um, jobs with an inherent risk.

You know, when you're out working in
these environments with a lot of moving

parts of helicopters and boats and people,
um, to be switched on all the time.

Um, and then, you know, and then
inevitably there's like the level of.

a sort of a layer of politics as well
that gets involved as soon as you start

dealing with sort of mega celebrities.

Yes.

Um, and that for me is like the,
the straw that breaks the, the back.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Megan Hine: It's too, too complex for
my brain to, to want to deal with.

And I just want to do my job.

Um, so yeah, just pre
COVID, I think it was.

It's just accumulation of many,
many, many years and not really

understanding the need to rest.

And also, you know, the fear when
you're a freelancer, I'm working in

these environments as much as, you
know, I'm addicted to it, love it.

And that was what was driving me.

There's also this underlying fear
of, you know, if you take your foot

off the pedal, is somebody else
going to get in there and take over?

Travis Bader: Right.

Right.

Megan Hine: Um, so yeah, so I, yeah,
so was diagnosed with burnout and I,

around this time, I actually started
wearing, um, a WHOOP device, like a,

a wear, like when you wearables, yeah,
sort of measuring, um, you know, what's

ticking on long underneath the surface
and what's going on with my physiology.

Um, and my HRV, so my heart rate
variability was insanely low.

So it was sitting like
on average around 10,

Travis Bader: like,

Megan Hine: um, I know it is
nuts cause I know, souped.

It's a really physical job because, uh,
managing people, but also like rigging.

So it's like, you know, wandering,
like going into the mountains every

day with like 20 kilogram, um,
rigging bags and like, you know,

running around in these environments,
like, you know, super physical.

Um, but my heart rate variability was
insanely low and it's taken like four

or five years for it to get back up.

And actually when you see the
numbers and you see just how

slow it is to come back up.

You know, I think that burnout is like
burnout isn't talked about enough.

And unfortunately, those of us that
are most likely prone to it, the

ones that are not going to listen to
the advice anyway, because of course

it's never going to happen to me.

Travis Bader: Never.

Well, what does a burnout
diagnosis look like?

Like, I, I don't know too many people
who would be able to recognize that

in themselves if they have burnout.

What does it look like?

Yeah,

Megan Hine: it's, it's really hard
to, uh, because it's so insidious.

It comes on so slowly, like
it kind of creeps onto you.

Um, and it can, it starts off usually
with, you know, feeling quite tired,

um, and just feeling like you can't,
yeah, you're just kind of hanging

in there, like you're surviving.

Um, and it's like you're able
to function and it's like,

you just kind of keep going.

It's almost, you're on autopilot.

It's like a really weird feeling.

Um, and I think what was.

What triggered me to kind of go and
get, go and talk to, uh, a medical, uh,

professional, a doctor, um, was that I
spent three months out in Norway, um,

on a job, and I, I came off the back
of it, and I was like, I actually can't

remember, like, anything about this shoot.

Like, I've literally just come off
this shoot, and I cannot remember.

Yeah, and it was just like,
I am, I'm, am I going mad?

Like, what the heck?

Like, this is insane.

Like, so, um, yeah, so I went to speak to
a doctor and, um, I was quite emotional at

the time, um, around it as well, and just,
you just kind of, like, you feel like

you You're losing your shit, like, it's
kind of, like, things are unravelling,

um, and you don't know why, and there's
no sort of rhyme or reason, um, but then

when you, like, look at the pattern and,
like, how long, you know, the behaviours

and things, and, you know, I think, I
don't think we appreciate, like, the

effects of time zone, um, travel and,

Travis Bader: I could see that.

Megan Hine: Yeah.

Um, so all, all of that, I think kind of
led, led to it and yeah, just feeling,

definitely just feeling out, out of sorts.

Well, just

Travis Bader: prior to COVID, so
that'd be around September 20, 2019.

You had a post on social media that
says in the end, we only regret the

chances we didn't take the relationships.

We were too afraid to embark on and the
decisions we waited too long to make.

Megan Hine: Yes.

It's funny to see when you read social
media and like hindsight and just

like, yeah, I tried to read any other
tech, like messages from that period,

Travis Bader: especially if you couldn't
remember something after doing a show in

Norway, you'd get, get back from that.

Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean that was, that
was quite scary actually, it was like

coming out of the back of that and just
being like, people asking you questions

about it and just being like, I, I
actually don't remember any of this,

like this is really, really bizarre.

Um, yeah, so I think COVID came
at a good point, uh, time for me,

otherwise I, I think I would have
found it very hard to stop, um.

So yeah, it was just good to, good
to recuperate and during that,

over that period of time, kind of
realizing how unhealthy, like the

working schedule that I had was.

Travis Bader: So you've
been vocal about ADD.

You've got ADD.

At a young age, grade three, I
was diagnosed with severe ADHD.

I was medicated.

Uh, I was on an experimental run in the
province of BC for the highest dosage of,

uh, Ritalin being prescribed to someone.

They just kept upping it more and
more just to see what the effects

would be like and what it would do
until I finally took myself off cold

Turkey at the end of grade seven.

I said, I didn't want to go to high
school taking these smart pills

as other people would call them.

And, uh,

I gotta imagine that the
A-D-D-A-D-H-D is gonna play a

role in this burnout as well too.

Megan Hine: Yeah, absolutely.

No, it really, it really does.

Um, and for me, the diagnosis of a
DD actually came, um, more recently.

Um, so that was maybe four years ago.

Yes, it wasn't that that
wasn't that long ago.

And this is what's really interesting
because I've done, I've done a lot

of reading, um, since that, uh, and
understanding, uh, that how there's so

many women that I suppose sort of get to
sort of my age and get diagnosed either

because their children have been diagnosed
with it and they recognize the symptoms.

symptoms in their child and themselves,
um, or they've, you know, or they've,

the information's percolated into them
to be like, Oh, light bulb moment.

Um, I think for a lot of, for
a lot of girls, um, ADHD, ADD

presents differently to, to boys.

Uh, whereas boys tend to.

externalize, um, the symptoms, not always
this adrenalization, but tend to, um,

externalize in that kind of not being
able to sit still, that fidgeting, maybe

being seen as a bit naughty, uh, in class.

Whereas like for girls, often
it tends to internalize, um, and

manifests as depression, anxiety.

Um, the focus is very internal and
like this internal narrative, um, that

yeah, can lead to depressive thoughts.

Um, for me, when I look back on it, it's
like in school, it's like I used to just

skip, skip classes to go mountain biking.

Um, and I could, I could really,
I really struggled to sit still

and I couldn't understand why.

Cause it wasn't like I wasn't achieving,
like the grades were, my grades were

okay, but I just couldn't sit still.

I couldn't focus.

I'd be within four walls.

I'd just be so anxious.

It's like this feeling in my chest
of like panic and need to be, need

to be moving, need to be escaping.

And I'd play up, um, and
get sent out of classes.

Um, and yeah, I can relate to

Travis Bader: that.

Megan Hine: Yeah, it's horrible, isn't it?

It's just like, we're just not
designed to sit still like that.

Travis Bader: Well, it's, it's horrible
when you're forced to be in an environment

that you're not designed to be in,
like you say, that's the horrible part.

When you look at yourself and you
say, there's something wrong with me.

Why can't I concentrate?

Why can't I study?

I remember in grade four,
I had a teacher who.

I took a different approach with
me and he says, well, you like

puzzles and you like games here.

Do puzzles.

You like chemistry,
bring in your chemistry.

He said, and I was teaching at
my college level chemistry books.

And for me, chemistry was making
disappearing ink or making things blow up.

I mean, that was, if it does
something that you can see

an exact result out of that.

That's exciting.

Right.

And I got straight A's in grade four,
by grade seven, I got straight F's.

So my teacher said, took me
aside at the end of the year.

And I look him at my rec.

Port guard, it says pass, but the grades
didn't come up enough from straight

F's to, to really make sense to me.

Like, is this a pass?

Is this not a pass?

And she says, well, technically it's
not a pass, but I don't want to see

you back in the classroom again.

I think you're going to get more
out of high school than I'm ever

going to be able to give you.

You're going.

So, um, and you know, growing up,
I always looked at, uh, ADHD as.

As a male thing, because all of
the literature, the doctors are

like, Oh, girls don't get ADHD,
which isn't, which is ludicrous.

Like what, why would girls not get it?

And I, I didn't realize how it presents
in girls is more, um, internalized.

Yeah,

Megan Hine: well it's interesting because
it's that same, if you think about like

the same energy that, uh, like a little
boy is going to be putting out into

the world with ADHD, that same energy
for a girl is typically put inside.

And where else is it going to go into
like these kind of, Weird thought

patterns or unhealthy thought patterns.

Travis Bader: So you've got, you've
got a background in psychology.

Um, if I were to put on my pseudo
psychologist hat, having zero background

in psychology, um, I'm wondering if
perhaps your desire to be outside

and be in these extreme environments.

Was an attempt at being present because
when you're thinking about where your

next hand holder foothold is going to
be on the rock, when you're thinking

about when you're rafting down the
river, like where's, where's the hole,

where's, where's the, uh, the strainers
and the keepers and your head is

right there in the moment, it allows
your external environment to kind of

maybe match your internal environment.

Is that, uh, is that
an accurate assessment?

Megan Hine: I think that's
a very accurate assessment.

But I think there's two parts of it.

I think you're right in that it
is, uh, finding the present, but

it was also in a running away.

It's like, I've made a career about
of running away and it's like running

away from that, those, that anxiety.

Cause it's like, if you can pedal fast
enough or push yourself hard enough,

you can out like outrun the anxiety.

Um, and then, yeah, the climbing, the
rock climbing, um, for me, like, I

actually wrote, when I was at university,
I actually wrote my dissertation

on, uh, flow in rock climbers.

And it's like where you find,
I'm sure a lot of like people,

outdoors, um, folk who have had this
experience at some time or another.

for those, for some of you may be
super lucky to experience it a lot,

but it's this kind of moment where
it's almost like you're not thinking.

Your body and mind are so connected
and it's like you're flowing up

the rock face or you're flowing
through the, along the trails.

If you're running, I'd imagine
it's something that you experienced

a lot when hunting as well.

Um, and you're just so in
tune with the environment.

It's the most beautiful
thing to, to, to be.

And it's just the ultimate.

being present.

And that for me, and like
the rock climbing, um, it

was just, it was beautiful.

And I was, I suppose I was chasing that,
um, as well as the, you know, the running

away from anxiety or, you know, emotions
that I didn't have the toolkit to be able

to deal with, um, when I was younger.

Travis Bader: When I was younger,
my parents said they didn't

think I'd live past 10 years old.

And then they said, well, you made
it a 10, maybe 12, 12, maybe 18.

Now you're an adult.

Well, maybe, maybe you're
going to make it right.

And because I was, I was just bouncing
off the walls everywhere and I was

always doing things that were putting.

Myself in physical risk.

And, you know, I almost died a number
of times and through my teenage

years and early twenties, almost
drowned three different occasions.

I've almost drowned.

Um, and the one thing I found though,
was you never truly feel as alive

as when you almost die, right?

When, when, when you're on that edge and
it's like, it could go this way, it could

go that way and you get through and you're
riding this high and you feel great.

But it can cause you to keep pushing
more and more for those environments.

It's kind of like, and I
liken it to a cliff jumping.

Okay.

So I jumped off from this height.

Can I go higher?

Okay.

Now I've done it for here.

Can I go higher?

Like at what point do we stop?

And I'm wondering, so you had quite the
experience in that crevasse, uh, that was

a, uh, life threatening situation, was it?

Megan Hine: Um, yeah, that, that one
was, that was, um, yeah, that was kind

of what prompted us to go back, uh, to
university and do some, do some studying.

Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I
totally, totally agree with you.

Uh, with that, I think, and whether
that's an ADD, ADHD thing, or whether

it's a personality type, or childhood
experiences, or, you know, whatever it

might be, there is, um, you know, for,
for many of us, there is that feeling of

feeling alive when you're confronted, or
when the consequences are, um, so strong.

And this is going back to, you know,
what we were talking about earlier, about

like that fight flight freeze response,
and the stress response, and whether

we've evolved to live as we do now.

Um, you know, there's so, so few times
really in the modern world, in the

western world, where, um, we have to take
responsibility, um, for our own actions.

It's very easy.

There's a blame culture.

Um, you know, you see that in
like the suing culture and things.

Yeah, and constantly.

Passing the buck onto somebody else.

Whereas, you know, when you go out
into the outdoors, whether you're

hunting, whether you're running,
whether you're climbing, you have

to take ownership of your actions.

Um, and that responsibility,
uh, is really empowering.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I think that's where a lot
of this comes down to as well as

you actually feel alive because you
actually have to engage in your life.

Travis Bader: I agree.

Do you, do you hunt?

Megan Hine: Um, I spearfish.

I would love to hunt.

I live in the uk.

I love

Travis Bader: spearfishing.

Megan Hine: I love it.

Yeah, that's my, that's my mindfulness.

Like, yeah.

So I live on the coast in North Wales.

Uh, yeah, it's yeah.

Often, often out here.

Travis Bader: And you spear
fish out in North Wales.

Megan Hine: Yep.

Yeah.

I got my bass and yeah, mullet.

That

Travis Bader: is so cool.

Yeah.

I, um.

I recently learned that if I put a
little bit of silicone on my mask and

create a seal for my, uh, my beard
mustache here, and I can actually,

used to be, I just shave it all off.

Anytime I went into the South
Pacific or places I want to spearfish

and I will just take a, um, I'll
find a chunk of bamboo and some

surgical tubing and some paracord.

And maybe I, if I'm able to find a
stinger head or travel with a little

stinger head, I'll wrap that on there.

And I, and I use a, like a
Hawaiian sling I'll make up.

Are you using a spear
gun or like a sling or?

Megan Hine: Yeah, I do
have a Hawaiian sling.

I don't tend to use it here.

Um, but I, because I work quite
a lot of Panama at the moment.

Um, so I take a Hawaiian sling that I
take packs down and I take that with me.

Um, but I do, I've got a spear gun.

I usually go out with a spear gun here.

Travis Bader: I find for me, the.

Like growing up, I always wanted to
hunt and I didn't really get out.

I spent a lot of time outdoors.

We had a commercial fly fishing lodge
in an area just past Kamloops up in, uh,

here in British Columbia, and it was a
hike in or fly in only sort of thing.

So you could get a helicopter in
and there's about 5, 000 elevations.

So you could land a float plane,
but there's speculation whether you.

At that altitude, you could take off
again, or you're hiking all your gear in.

So as a kid, I would, I would, I'm
going to do air brackets, I would

hunt and I had no idea about what was
allowed or not, but you know, squirrels

and grouse and stuff like this.

Um, but the.

The ability to be present and all the
little things that come in and how the

animals interact with the flora and,
and each other just becomes a study.

I find when I'm out there, what's growing.

Uh, do we see.

Do we see spruce tips
kind of coming out here?

Okay.

So that tells me an idea as
to where my elevation is.

And it gives me an idea as to
what kind of animals are going

to be out this time of the year.

And for me, it's, it's not about
the actual act of harvesting

the animal that just happens to
put some food in the freezer.

But it's all of that time up preparing
for the hunt, uh, packing, getting

everything together, training
ahead of time, then, then being

outside and trying to as quickly
as possible become one with nature.

For me, that's what hunting's about.

Megan Hine: Yeah.

I'm so jealous of Canadians
and your amazing wilderness.

You've got the most amazing
backyard to go and play in.

Uh, but I, I, I totally
agree with you about that.

When you're in spearfishing, it's exactly.

what it is.

Um, that, cause it's, you've got this
one breath to go down and understand

the animal behavior, have a look, you
know, see any idea, any idea, any signs,

um, in the environments of, you know,
of the fish that you're looking for.

Um, and yeah, it's, it's just magic.

And it's just that, that feeling.

Um, Yeah, but yeah, like, like you,
it's not, it's not about shooting

the animal, that's not for me,
that's not, that's actually, I

find that incredibly difficult,
um, which I'm glad about actually,

because then you have the respect
for where your food comes from, um.

Travis Bader: Huge.

Megan Hine: Yeah.

But the, as you say, like the lead up
to it is just, it's just incredible.

It's something really primal.

It's what we've been programmed for.

Travis Bader: It is.

And you know, if I'm going to eat
meat, I should be able to square

myself with the idea that at
some point the animal has to die.

And if I.

Put that onto a third party.

And I kind of divorced myself from the
concept of, of where that food comes from.

I find there's a much more intimate
connection when I sit around the

table with my family and we're eating
a meal and we're talking about the

time that we spent together outdoors.

I mean, it's, uh, um, it's a very, very
close connection that I find that whole

close circle with the natural environment.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on
medication for something like ADD, ADHD.

Megan Hine: Yeah, that's really
interesting, um, thought actually,

cause this is something that, excuse
me, this I've been thinking about

actually a lot recently, because I guess.

I suppose like 18 months ago, I kind
of, I made more of a shift into focusing

on building up my company, um, and
developing show ideas and projects.

There's a couple of projects that we've
got that are in development, um, at the

moment, which are really, really exciting.

And oh my gosh, if like one of them
comes off, it's going to be insane.

Uh, I'm just really excited.

I feel very passionate about these things,
but, um, the problem I have that I've

never experienced before, and I think
you mentioned like the ADHD is like a

superpower and I completely agree with
this because it's, it's allowed me to do

my job and it's like in a field where,
you know, there are so many moving

parts like all the time when, when we're
working, when we're filming and it's

like all the different aspects and it.

That my role covers, uh, and I'm
involved in every department.

I'm, I know what's happening
where, where everybody is.

Uh, and my brain works so well
like that when I've got this big

overview, um, of what's happening.

But when I've been trying to, more
recently, been foc trying to focus

on sitting behind my computer and
creating spreadsheets and things.

Ah, yeah.

And I, like, it is It is a horrible
feeling because it's just this like,

again, it's going back to that sort of
childhood sitting in between four walls

and this sheer panic that starts arising
and just like trying to like keep myself

here and it's like, I just want to go.

Um, so I'm trying to figure
the best balance of, of that

to try to actually figure out.

And that's where I was actually.

Would be interested to take
medication just to see how it

works and how it interacts.

I'm fascinated.

I don't like the idea of it being
long term, but I'd just be intrigued

to see if it makes a difference.

Travis Bader: I think that's the,
the issue with medication is a

lot of them are these long term.

Uh, I'm going to go air
brackets again, solutions.

And when you talk about spreadsheets
for me, chat GPT has been amazing for

helping get the rough work basically
done and getting things together.

If I, um, throw these things in,
that's, I think for somebody with

ADHD, it's a, it's a huge creativity.

Booster, um, because then actually see
the steps through to the next, next point.

But, you know, people ask me, they
say, well, what do you think my kid's

got ADD or my kid's been diagnosed
with ADHD or whatever it might be.

Um, what are your thoughts on medication?

And just all I can speak from
is my experience with the

medications that they put me on.

And I would say, why are we trying
to medicate somebody to be able to

fit in a certain environment, as
opposed to finding that environment

that they can thrive in unmedicated.

And I know that's not always
going to be possible if we want

to be in a functional society.

If you want to be able to get along
with other people, maybe the meds can

be a helpful thing, but I, I've always,
I always tell people to approach it

with a great deal of caution because
once you're on these things, a lot

of times, uh, the pros will say,
well, you can't just come off of it.

We have to wean you off, or you
can put you onto something else,

or maybe you're onto it for life.

And I would much rather.

Find an environment that I can thrive
in with whatever it is that my mindset

is, or my makeup is, then to force
myself to adapt to one that I'm, I'm

not inclined to, to fit in with that,
that, that would be my thoughts.

It might be a little controversial for
some, especially for those who, uh,

um, look at medication as a savior.

And I get it.

If a person is going through
a moment of crisis, maybe this

is the right solution for them.

But by and large, I say exercise and
diet and your environment and your

circle of friends and the goals that you
have for yourself, all of these things,

the hard work things of actually being
disciplined and, and moving towards the

progressive realization of a worthy ideal
would be, um, better than medication.

Megan Hine: I know there's super sound
advice and I think it's, I guess it's.

This is why a podcast like this is so
powerful, uh, because to be able to,

for you to be able to talk about your
experiences and share it with a wider

audience, for people to understand that
there may be other options, and that

actually just because you have ADHD or
you have whatever it might be, doesn't

mean that you can't be successful
in your career, um, or find change.

Yeah, it finds your home, um, out there.

I think, I think you're right.

I, I think it's sad.

I, I see it a lot on, um, like when I
used to do a lot more expeditions of

people coming along with, um, anxiety
and depression and being on medications

for that and choosing to, to come
off of it on these expeditions, not

under my, to your medical providers.

But, uh, they were making the decision
to come off of it and actually just

being in that environment and connecting
with people because a huge part of the

issue with our society at the moment
is that, you know, we don't physically

need to interact with anybody ever.

And we've got online ordering.

You know, we don't
actually have to go out.

Um, so much of our world is set
up in competition with each other.

Travis Bader: Whereas,

Megan Hine: you know, we, when you see,
you know, work with indigenous cultures

or see how they're, they operate is
very much as a family unit, units that

would go around to help each other
out, raise children together, patch

up shelters together, forage together.

Um.

All of these things were communal
activities that we, we've lost that.

Um, we, there's so few of us
now actually live near our, near

our parents, have that support.

Um, our grandparents become very isolated.

Uh, and I think this
is a huge part of this.

It's just like this lack of human
connection and, um, working together

as, you know, as tribal units.

Travis Bader: Have you seen that
Harvard study that would span over

80 years and it looked at, right.

I, what did it say?

They were looking at happiness
and what makes people happy.

What do they say?

Megan Hine: Yeah.

Well, the human connection
being with other people.

That's it, the

Travis Bader: number, the number one
indicator for what, if somebody will be

happy or not is strong social connections.

Having a good friend group, having
a good family group, like across all

cultures, across all areas of the world.

And that is the number one.

Indicator that a personal report, feelings
of contentment and happiness is if they

have those strong social connections.

Yeah, it's really

Megan Hine: interesting, like seeing
that with like the, um, uh, it was a

study done on it's like, you know, what
made people more likely to survive in,

they typically were looking at like
wilderness survival, um, situations, but

it was like, what would make somebody
more likely to survive a situation.

And one of the, there were
sort of two main factors.

to this, but one of them was, um,
that connection, although they, the

family or friends or whoever it might
be, may not physically be with them.

Um, and they may not have any contact with
them, but just knowing that they've got

this amazing support network behind them,
um, was enough to help keep people alive.

Um, and the other part of that was
like a sense of purpose, um, found

in, you know, potentially in routine.

Uh, but it is interesting, isn't it?

So we are designed, I think this way.

When we look at, like, COVID and it's
like, there's so many, we're still

here in the UK still dealing with the
fallout, um, of the sort of mental health

fallout from the lockdown that we were
experiencing, people being isolated, and

there was all this argument about, you
know, well, our grandparents went to war

and, you know, all of this, and it's like,
well, surely they had it worse, like,

why are we dealing with such a, such a
big mental health issue at the moment?

But a huge part of that
comes down to the isolation.

Yeah.

You know, yes, it might sound great that
you can sit and watch Netflix all day,

but it's far more important to actually
physically interact, be with people, um,

and, and yeah, and, and talk to people.

Travis Bader: I remember as a kid, I
was reading, I think it was a national

geographic or a popular mechanics.

I think maybe it was a popular
mechanics and it was an older

magazine that was talking about the
psychology of survival and it likened.

Um, the, the paradox that when
they're looking at people in, uh,

world war two, and let's say, I think
the example was used was a shipwreck

and they're surviving on at sea.

And by and large, they figured
that all of these young.

Soldiers would be the ones that
would out survive the older ones.

But the inverse actually
turned out to be true.

It was the older ones who looked at
the situation and said, well, my first

divorce was harder than this, right.

And, or whatever it might be, they
have these learned experiences

and they've got a mindset where
they're, I guess, tougher, um, Yeah.

I, I find it really, really interesting,
um, mental health and mindset

and how that plays into survival.

Megan Hine: Yeah.

Have you, have you read the
book, um, by Joseph Frankel,

um, Man's Search for Meaning?

Travis Bader: The one thing you can't
take from me is the way I choose to

respond to what you do to me, the
last of life's great freedoms is

one's ability to choose their own.

Attitude in any given circumstance.

It's, it's,

Megan Hine: it's incredible for anybody
who doesn't, hasn't come across this book.

It he's, um, a psychiatrist that
was, uh, it was in Auschwitz

and, uh, he used that time to.

Be able to study fellow, uh,
prisoners, um, that were in there.

Uh, and he writes his book, you
know, from a situation that seems so

hopeless and what mankind took out of
that situation and how they survived.

Um, it just, it's incredibly emotional,
um, but absolutely mind blowing of

just how resilient we are as a species.

Travis Bader: Oh, I just find it so
crazy and how well that book is written.

How well he's been put it together and
how he's able to take an objective view.

And he'll admittedly say, I'm trying to be
objective here, but I live through this.

And I realized that there's
going to be times with these

things kind of bleed through.

He would look at people who are
all in the exact circumstance and

they're all in the exact situation.

And some people are.

Have just given up all hope while other
people, while they might not be in the

best of spirits, maybe they can crack
a smile and maybe they can tell a joke.

Why what's the difference between
one person and the other, and

what he boiled it all down to was
their ability to choose their own

attitude in any given circumstance.

And for me, that has been key.

Hugely powerful that my
attitude is a choice.

If I can wake up grumpy,
then I can wake up happy too.

Like that's my choice.

Right.

So yeah, that, that is,
that's a very good book.

Is that one that you, uh, read
through your, your studies?

Megan Hine: Yes.

Yeah, it was, um, it was, I just found it.

I found it fascinating because I was.

Consumed by the, that question
of like, why do some people walk

out of a survival situation and
almost thrive in that situation?

Whereas others don't walk out.

And oftentimes it's the people
that you, that society would least

expect to survive, um, that do.

And it's like, well, what's,
what's the difference?

You know, how come are there at
least like young children walking

out of jungle survival experiences?

Um, Yeah.

What's the difference here, uh, between,
you know, wouldn't think about like a

plane crash between other passengers
that may have survived that plane crash.

Why did they not walk out as well?

Um, it's just, I find it
absolutely fascinating and yeah.

And sort of how you build resilience,
uh, in people, um, without breaking them.

Travis Bader: When you're working
on these sets and you're rigging,

do you ever find the psychology
side start coming through as well?

Where you're having to deal with different
people who you might have to give a pep

talk to, or put things in perspective
to, and if so, do you have examples?

Megan Hine: Yes.

Yeah.

Um, so, so on some of the, um, on some
of the running wilds, actually like

these, the shows that it was working
on, it was like, I wasn't actually

allowed to interact with, um, some of
the participants on it because it would,

cause they don't, they'd be looking
for me cause there was something.

But it's like, they'd say that if we see,
if we know you, if you know that you're

there and because you're such a calming
presence, that we know that we're safe.

And it's like, well, that's
not the, that's not what the

producers want out of it.

They

Travis Bader: want you
to feel on the edge.

Megan Hine: Yeah.

They want you to be shooting yourself.

So, um, yeah, but, but definitely, I
mean, you just like, you don't know.

And it's like with the running wilds as
well, like with those ones, it's like

you're, you're taking people out of.

Yes, they might be mega celebrities
or major faces of politics, but

you're taking them out of their
everyday life, and you're thrusting

them straight into this environment.

They've been picked up by
helicopter, they've been chucked

out into the environment.

Typically, there's a very short walk
and then they're into a rappel or into

white water or whatever it might be.

Um, and it's like, you know, these,
these are people who are like, are not

allowed to do their own stunts usually
because it's too expensive to insure them.

They've handed over the responsibility
for their life and they're

in this crazy ass situation.

They've got no idea what's coming next.

Um, and I have got a
huge respect for that.

And it's like, it's like people
going on expeditions as well.

You know, the clients that
sign up, um, to go on trips.

Um, and.

I think going on an expedition with
clients, I try to do one or two a

year, um, around, fitted in around
the TV work, just because it's a

completely different experience.

Um, and I see it as just this, it's
just the most amazing, um, thing to be

able to accompany people on a journey.

Which they did, they don't know whether
they're physically and mentally capable of

and seeing them achieve and actually being
part of that, that roller coaster, um,

of emotion and it's, it's just incredible
and like just seeing what, what people

can achieve, like summits or jungle treks
and survival situations and seeing them

come out the other side, just phenomenal.

Travis Bader: You know, I, growing up,
I always had the mindset, I'm tough.

I can do this.

I'm tough.

I'll keep pushing.

I'm in pain.

I can push through.

I'm tough.

I can do it.

Right.

And I just, the mantra on my
head, I can, I can, I can.

I'll just keep playing it through.

It doesn't matter how cold I am, how
wet I am, how injured or how hurt I am.

I'll just keep going.

And I thought that was, you
know, that's how you get tough.

And I remember a friend of mine, he, uh,
first came back from the British army.

He's been on the podcast
before Jason Bud and he's a.

Uh, mountain guide now, but, uh, we go out
in the hills with him and, uh, you know,

we're going up, I don't want to complain.

My feet are, my feet are bleeding.

They got blisters.

And he's like, well, hold on a second.

Let's just stop.

Let's sit down.

Let's have a quick brew,
have a brew up a cup of tea.

Right.

And, uh, let's administrate
yourself is what he would say.

And that's something that, uh, it, it
makes that mental game so much easier

when your body's in the, in a position
where it's comfortable and relaxed.

And I would look at what I was
able to accomplish with my tough

mindset, as opposed to what I
was able to accomplish with the.

Okay.

If, if I, if I have something
slipping on my pack, I stop,

I administrate, I get it on.

I'm hungry.

I sit down, I have some food,
have a tea and I move on.

And all of a sudden we're traveling
way further, covering way more

ground in a comfortable way than
I ever was able to do with this.

I'm tough attitude.

Megan Hine: Do you think that's because
you've got a feeling of more control

over that situation because you've now
can stop and you can sort yourself out.

Travis Bader: You know,
that's a good point.

And I never really looked
at it from that perspective.

I always just looked at it as, you
know, if I'm freezing and I'm cold,

but I'll just move faster, right.

As opposed to maybe I'll
put a jacket on, right.

It's in my pack.

I'm carrying it anyways.

Right.

Maybe I just put this jacket on.

Megan Hine: Oh, we're all
guilty of that though.

It's just like, keep going.

And then it's like, you know,
half an hour later, you're just

like, well, that was stupid.

Travis Bader: Yeah, exactly.

But, but the mind, the mind will go
to some dark places when you're right.

When, when you're out there and you're
tired and you're cold and you're hungry.

Megan Hine: Tripping.

Travis Bader: Right.

And when I, you're stumbling
over everything, having a

hard time keeping your feet.

And I find.

The second that I sit down and
administrate myself, all of

a sudden, those dark clouds
don't look quite as dark.

The end goal doesn't
seem quite as daunting.

And so that.

That was my introduction into the
mental role on the, uh, on the

physical survival and the physical,
uh, Outcome and performance.

And I've become fascinated
with that sense.

Nowhere near at the level where
you're at, but this is why I

love having conversations with
people like you, because I just

find it absolutely fascinating.

Megan Hine: Well, I think so the
more conversations that you can

have, the more it's like you realize
that, you know, our brains all do

kind of function in the same way.

And we all do the same daft things.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Travis Bader: I think so.

Um, is there anything that
we haven't talked about that

we should be talking about?

Megan Hine: Hmm.

That's a good question.

Um, I think this is where like
the ADHD brain comes in, cause

it just jumps all over the place.

Travis Bader: Oh, geez.

Oh, I got a whole bunch
of places I can jump.

Megan Hine: Um, I don't know
if he's covered, covered,

uh, some good ground there.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I do.

I do think we have, you know, there's also
chatting about, um, uh, you, you working

with people in high risk environments,
in trauma filled environments.

Is, does that, uh, form a
large part of what you do?

Megan Hine: Oh, as in
like resilience building?

Travis Bader: Yes.

Megan Hine: Yeah.

Um, yeah, we, we started
doing a bit more of that.

Um, so yeah, so it was working with people
and sort of helping build resilience.

That was something that, um, that
I've been really interested in.

Uh, I'm an ambassador for the
British Scout Organization.

Uh, and the program that they have.

running at the moment is what they call
skills for life, which is recognizes that,

um, that resilience is built gradually.

Um, it's, I think for a long time, we've
understood that resilience is grows

through hardship, but if you give somebody
too much hardship, um, it can break them.

And actually that's when you
end up with PTSD or CPTA PTSD.

Um, and.

So what we're trying to do with the
younger people is to build up resilience

gradually, so encouraging them to expose
themselves to lots of different new

environments and new situations, new
skills, um, so it doesn't necessarily

mean going out and pushing yourself hard.

outdoors.

It's, you know, talking to people
that you wouldn't normally communicate

with, um, different ages, different
backgrounds, different cultures, etc.

Um, going into taking on new skills,
um, and, and pushing yourself slowly

and building up that within, I
suppose, within a safe, safe space.

Um, so I, a couple of years ago, was
Start was asked to be involved in,

um, looking at resilience in anti
poachers, uh, anti poaching units.

Um, and we built this program, um, this
trial program, um, which is still running,

which is really, which is really awesome.

Um, where we went and spent time.

So they were doing a, like a.

a three month program, uh, these, uh,
rangers from all over Africa came to,

together, um, and They were, they do
this, sort of, train the trainer, they

train them, train the guys and then put
them, give them back out into the field

and they go and train their troops.

Um, but this resilience program was
just like, well, can we use the same

uh, sort of psychology as we do in the
TV shows in crafting these stories to

again trigger that fear and anxiety to
help them understand fear and anxiety and

stress and how that affects the system.

when they are working and living in an
environment where they're not going to

have access to mental health support.

Travis Bader: Um,

Megan Hine: so we, we, we're
looking at that and like exploring.

So we were exploring with them,
like what fear anxiety is, what

stress is, uh, built a program of
like, um, putting more and more.

Uh, stress onto them in a controlled
environment, uh, and utilizing, for that

one, we were typically using height, um,
when the exposure from that situation,

so, you know, rock climbing, we built a
big via ferrata, which is like a big cable

system up cliffs, um, which they could
move through, um, And sort of building

up that exposure and talking through
it all at each point, uh, in the hope

that, and we're still seeing the results
coming back, in the hope that if we're

running these, if we're running this and
helping them understand, uh, what stress

is, what anxiety is, and the effects it
has on the body and the mind, that, uh,

that they can actually learn to control
it and have some sort of autonomy over

those, those emotions and the reactions.

Travis Bader: That's, you know,
you raised a lot of, a number

of good points here growing up.

I thought it was Conan, the barbarian
quote, but I later realized it

was a Nietzsche quote that which
doesn't kill me makes me stronger.

Right.

Um, it's not true, right?

It's that which doesn't kill me
doesn't necessarily make you stronger.

Unless you've got the ability to
cope with it and to understand what

you went through and make that into
a positive learning experience.

Because if you just keep piling on
trauma and you keep piling on, uh,

hardships onto a person, eventually
it's going to take its toll.

It's like filling up a bucket
of water with all of this stuff.

We have to find a way to let that
kind of come out or, or deal with it.

And you bring up the idea of stories.

I think that's pretty cool too.

I mean, and when they look at, um,
when you, when you look at soldiers

coming back from war and, uh, PTSD,
why are they experiencing PTSD?

Why does some soldiers in
some wars have a higher.

Rate of PTSD.

And again, my Lehman approach, I don't
have any background in this, but if I

were to look at it, I'd say maybe it's
because of the stories that we tell

ourselves or that are being told about us.

Like you look at, um, PTSD after,
uh, the Vietnam war, where they come.

Soldiers are coming back and
the society's all against them.

Those social groups, which are
integral to people feeling happy.

According to Harvard seemed
all be against the individual.

The individual says, why did
I go out there and do this?

Whereas in warrior cultures, when they
come back from a similar war and they're

a lot, a lot of those heroes, and they're
telling themselves a story, I'm a hero and

they could have done the exact same thing,
but it's a story that we tell ourself,

I think that plays the integral role.

Megan Hine: Absolutely.

And, and also going back to the
connection point, it's like, you

know, there's also the support
systems behind, uh, people as well.

Because, you know, there is, there
will be members of the military

that have gone into, into military
service at a very young age to escape

domestic abuse, domestic violence.

Um, and it's, so it's, you
know, our childhood narratives.

play into, into these and our ability to
be able to cope in situations of stress,

um, and whether those, our systems have
become overloaded and whether it's,

you know, sometimes situations that we
might be faced with are we get triggered

because we were triggered, you know,
because we experienced this and these

situations when we were, when we were
younger and like our formative years.

You know, up to like sort
of the age of seven, really.

Um, and it's like, you know, it's really,
that, that, that is such a sensitive time

for us, um, in our human development.

Um, and it's where our brains are,
our minds are like acting like

sponges and soaking up and basically
programming us and programming our

reactions for the rest of our lives.

Which is why when I'm dealing with
people that are getting triggered

and angry, about a certain situation.

It's like, it's important to kind of
take a breath and recognize the fact that

you're actually dealing with a toddler,
because their reactions to whatever

the situation is, is being, they're
probably being triggered as they were

when they were a child, because that's
how, when they got programmed to react.

And actually Trying to switch off your
own reaction because it's very easy isn't

it when somebody's having a go at you and
you know It's like it's not your fault.

You're just like the fuck Like oh fuck
off and I get and then the situation and

then you're both acting in this kind of
place of fight flight response, um, and

it's like, you know, logic and reasoning
is out the window and we can't achieve,

um, a goal, whereas actually being able to
step back and understanding that this has

got nothing to do with me, this is like,
this person is obviously upset by this

situation here, but actually, again, it's
not this situation here, it's something

that happened in their childhood.

Um, that is, that is causing the reaction
now, um, and they're, the way they

interact with the world around them.

And I think that's something that, you
know, we, we just haven't, although

all of this stuff is now sort of being
studied a lot more and being understood

a lot more, there's still a lot about
our minds that isn't understood and

how they interact with, you know, what
society tells us, our past experiences,

our present experiences, etc.

And how that all Intermingles,
um, to create who we are and our

reactions to the world around us.

Um, I think we've still got a long way
to go, um, to help protect military

personnel or people who are operating in
high stress environments, you know, um,

paramedics, doctors, nurses, et cetera.

Travis Bader: So how do you recognize in
yourself that you're becoming overloaded?

Are there indicators
that you can pick up on?

Megan Hine: Yeah, I think, and this is
something where it's like this whole

kind of like self awareness and things.

And I know that there's a lot of stuff
on social media that makes you think

all of this is like really hippie esque
and, um, kind of woo woo and it's, it's

very easy to dismiss it, but you know,
behind all of the pseudoscience and

stuff, there is actually, um, you know,
there, there is a real, Uh thing here and

actually having going back to what you
were saying, you know about being present

Um and recognizing in yourself So, you
know for me when we're talking about like

the the sort of ADHD side of things and
like for me I know it's like a panic.

I feel it in my chest.

It's quite a physical Um feeling that
I feel in my chest and if I start

feeling that Um, I know that the sort
of panic's starting to rise in me And

I know that I'm then not going to be
operating in my more human brain, which

is where logic and reasoning live.

Um, I'm going to be operating in the
stress response and fight and flight.

Um, and it's so, so
when I get an email in.

And sometimes you, cause it's, it's
very easy to misread or misunderstand,

you know, a text message or an email
and it's so easy to read it coming

in and just be like, what the fuck?

And like,

Travis Bader: you

Megan Hine: want to get back on, like,
straight back on the email and just like,

yeah, definitely in that moment, it's
like, I mean, we're all, we're all guilty

of it, and we all do it, but it's in
that moment of recognizing, it's like,

hang on a minute, why am I triggered?

Like, what is it about this situation
that's, that's triggering me?

Um, and oftentimes it comes down to your
own, like, self doubt, and actually,

when you step back, it's like, it's not
actually worded that badly, or if the

person was typing it too fast, and, yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I think very

Megan Hine: rarely personal

.
Travis Bader: I think that's why
they made emoticons, because we have

gotten so bad at the written language,
at conveying what we actually mean.

We'll type something out with the best
intentions, and it comes across to the

other person as why would they say that?

But if I put a laughy face at the end,
or if I put this emoticon, then they know

kind of where I'm at and what I'm feeling.

So

Megan Hine: aggressive emojis,

Travis Bader: right?

And I find it so easy and you
get an email like that coming in,

um, I just sit on them and I just
wait or a text, I'll just wait.

Um, some, some places I'll say like,
Dealing with government bodies.

I'll be, excuse me,

dealing with government bodies.

I'll say, I respond to
my emails on Wednesday.

Is this an important matter that
needs to be addressed before then?

Or can it wait till Wednesday?

And they'll let me know.

Yes or no.

Next Wednesday comes up and I'll
say, still working on my response.

I'm not ready yet.

I'll have to do it next Wednesday,
but I've become very disciplined

in my approach to how I deal with.

Um, messages and emails as if they
could be read at a later date.

I don't know if that's, I don't know
if that's a smart thing to do, or if

that's overly cautious thing to do.

But I always think if somebody
coming in and looking at this from

a completely outside perspective,
saw it, what would they have to say?

And.

That's, that's the approach that
I typically take with emails.

I think

Megan Hine: that's very smart.

I mean, you see like, you know, the,
the cases that are in the media at the

moment, like the big cases around, you
know, it's hard to like, not to have

seen these things, you know, with Blake
Lively and, um, Justin Baldoni and

you're seeing this case and it's like.

All of their messages are
just being shared out there.

So I'm, I'm the same as you now.

It's like, whenever I send them a
WhatsApp, whether it's to a friend, to

anybody now, it's just assuming that
it's going to be forwarded on or shared.

Yes.

And yeah.

And, and, and also, I
mean, it's sad, isn't it?

That we have to get to this stage,
but it's, you know, keeping up

with the IT, particularly with,
you know, the work that I do where,

um, you know, oftentimes it's like.

advising in an advisory role.

Um, and you know, maybe something's
happening that's, I don't think it's

safe, um, on set or I don't think
that, you know, this isn't going

to work or somebody's going to get
hurt of making sure that it's all

like documented in email chains and
things, um, you know, to, to protect

yourself as much as, as possible.

And it's, I mean, it's sad that
we're at this stage, uh, but

it's, but it is really important.

And I think, again, it's even more
important not to get triggered

because otherwise it might
come back to haunt you later.

Travis Bader: Yeah, there's a real
compartmentalization that needs to happen.

It's like, okay, I've said my piece,
they're going to go ahead with it.

I have to make a decision.

Do I continue on this show or do I
continue consulting with this person?

Do we wrap it up at the end of this one?

And I, and I take a different approach.

I do consulting for a number of different
law firms and there's some law firms

that I'll, I'll never consult for again.

And I'll just.

Tell them right off the bat, if
they're looking for an end outcome

and, you know, I'm hired as a subject
matter expert for the courts, not

for you and not for your client, I'm
sitting here trying to give the courts

the best idea from my perspective
as to what's kind of happening.

And I got to imagine that's
probably a very similar approach

when you're consulting on these
sets, you're not there for the set.

You're not, you're there for, for safety.

You're there first and foremost
to make sure that people are

going to be safe and effective.

Megan Hine: Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, there is, um, part of the, I
suppose people is looking at like the

financial protecting, you know, protecting
shows, but also, you know, protecting,

um, protecting the people involved.

Um, it's, it's my, it's
primary role, um, on that.

Um, and yeah, sometimes it is
particularly like sort of high.

highly dynamic situations, it
can be quite, quite difficult.

And, um, I, what I find as well is that
we get a lot of, you know, producers,

um, you know, maybe coming in from LA
or from London and, you know, don't

really have a huge amount of outdoor
experience, um, but have been doing these

shows and have become a bit desensitized
to the fact that we're not in a studio.

And just because something hasn't happened
doesn't mean that it won't happen.

And it's like, it's what we call a
heuristic trap of like, you know,

nothing's, nothing's happened.

So, you know, we're fine.

And we stopped thinking about it and we
stopped reading the environment around us.

Um, you know, like Avalanche is a A
good example of this, of like, you know,

travelling over snowy terrain, and it's
like, there's never been an avalanche

this time of year before, it's like,
people just aren't thinking about it,

but actually, the avalanche goes off,
and then, then it's like, oh yeah,

there was like, there was wind from this
direction, and there was unusual amount

of snow, etc, etc, and suddenly, like,
actually all of the signs were there in

the environment, um, but that, people
fell into that trap, and didn't read it.

Travis Bader: Right.

Gavin DeBecker wrote a book
called The Gift of Fear.

And he talks about, uh, trusting your
gut is a big core message on there.

Women have women's intuition, men
have their gut feeling, right?

But don't try to analyze why your
gut feels a certain way, trust

the gut later in a safe area.

You can go and you can try and analyze
why that is and do all of that.

But, um, they talk about people
so often they find themselves in

a violent encounter and they turn
around afterwards and say, well,

I'm Well, all the signs were there.

Well, if all the signs were there to
begin with, then some part of you should

have been able to pick up on that.

And more often than not for me, anyways,
I find my gut is the first thing that

picks up on something's not right.

What's not right.

I don't know, but I'm going to
extract myself in this situation.

We'll try and figure it out.

Put my ego aside because it's so easy
to want to push on through and, and,

um, let that male ego get, get involved.

Right.

Megan Hine: But do you think that
goes back to that, um, when we were

talking about earlier about, you know,
spending more time in a, in like the

outdoor environment and actually taking
ownership, that actually you know

that listening to that intuition or
that gut feeling, um, is important.

Um, whereas if you haven't spent much
time in those environments where you

actually have to take ownership for
yourself, that it's very easy to,

to dismiss it and get into trouble.

Travis Bader: I think so.

I also think just like you talk about
this, uh, hippie frou frou type of, uh,

uh, stuff that's out there about energies
and, uh, uh, whatever it might be.

I think there's so much in this world
that we just don't truly understand.

We're always learning new things.

Science is always uncovering new things.

If we do get these weird feelings,
what's the worst that's going

to happen if I act on this?

Maybe I don't get a summit today.

Maybe I don't go into this one location.

I walk into going into a pub and you
see all the motorcycles outside and,

and, uh, I don't know, it looks a little
seedy and you walk inside the front door

and everyone stops and staring at you.

All right.

I'm a big guy.

I'm tough.

I'm not going to turn around.

Or maybe the gut says.

Yeah, maybe this isn't
the place I want to be.

And I can figure it out after whatever,
whatever the situation somebody

wants to relate to, whether that's
in a city environment or an outdoor

environment, but I think there's more
to the world than we truly comprehend.

And if it's not going to, uh, grossly
hurt you or inconvenience you, what's

the harm in listening to that guy.

Megan Hine: Yeah, my, my, my theory on
this is that, like, if you think about,

like, the brain as, as an iceberg and
it's, like, the, the conscious part of

our brain, so, like, our thoughts and
things are, like, the tip of the iceberg,

there's only a tiny, tiny percentage of
what's, of our brain functioning that is

conscious, that we're even aware of, the
rest of it is all underneath the water,

it's the rest, the, the big bulk of the
iceberg underneath the water, and our

subconscious chooses The, the messages
that it sends through to the conscious

again to keep, help keep us safe.

And I, I, I believe that like the
intuition and the gut feelings are like

a partially formed image that you're,
the subconscious has picked up on like.

Ooh, danger.

Um, and it's sent through
like a partially formed image.

It hasn't sent through
the full, full details.

And actually, if you zone in and you're
like, hang on a minute, it's like

my brain's picked up on something.

Like, let's get the conscious part
now in like what is going on here.

Um, then often, you know, you can
then put the pieces together because

we are, It is our natural habitat.

You know, like when you go out the door
in the morning and it's like, it's kind of

blue sky, but you're just like, Oh, I'll
just take my, take my rain jacket with me.

Right.

Half an hour later it's raining.

And you're just like, Oh, that was
a bit of like automatic response.

But it's like, but your, your body might,
you know, it's our environment is picked

up on that, the messages and you've acted.

Um, and it's, you know, we should, I
think we really should listen to it more,

but you know, we teach young people.

I don't know it's like in Canada, but
certainly here in the UK, it's like.

We teach young people to override their
intuition, you know, around people, like

first meetings with, you know, always
treat people how you wish to be treated.

It's like, well, no,
listen to your intuition.

If you get a bad vibe about
somebody, like, listen to that.

Travis Bader: I like that a lot.

And I like that example of going
outside and bringing a jacket.

Maybe it smells different, but
you didn't really pick up on that.

Maybe the birds aren't making their normal
sounds, but you didn't pick up on that.

But there's all these things
that are kind of going on.

Maybe it just feels different against your
skin, but you're not picking up on it,

but there's something deep down that tells
you, maybe I should bring that jacket.

And yeah, as kids, yeah.

You know, respect your elders, treat
people as you want to be treated.

Uh, no respect is earned.

And if the elder is not respect, is not
earning respect, then you don't, um,

you don't give it to them and treating
other people as you'd like to be treated.

Yeah.

Within reason, of course.

Um, you mentioned that anxiety feeling
that you feel, and you, I think you

touched your chest when you, when you
said that you feel internally, I'm curious

when you get that overloaded, overwhelmed,
or sort of that anxiety feeling,

and you recognize that's happening.

What steps do you take after that?

Megan Hine: Yeah.

So, um, I don't always do this cause I
think, cause I can be pretty stubborn and

it's like, if I'm focused on something,
um, but it's usually to my detriment.

So, um, I recognize it.

I'll stop, stop what I'm doing.

Um, and try to breathe.

But what really helps me is just going
out for going out for a run earlier.

Cause I was having to make some
pretty big decisions earlier today.

And it's like I'd
scheduled, like, for my run.

I live in Snowdonia in North
Wales, like in the mountains.

Um, and I'd scheduled my run in for later.

Um, but I was just like,
actually, you know what?

I'm gonna go now because I need this.

It's like, if I sit here now, I
know that, like, you know, I'm gonna

have a physical response to this.

And then my mind is gonna start
Playing out these negative

narratives, which are not true.

And, um, I just need to go out and move.

And it's just like, you know, went out
and like literally within a couple of

minutes, it's like, oh, here we go.

There's the solution.

And it's like, it's magic.

Like, so moving, being outside
and moving is like, is my therapy.

Travis Bader: I agree with that one.

Yeah.

Going for a run, going for a walk, just
being outside, you know, I do this with

my kids, I haven't had to do it in a long
time, When they're growing up and, and

they're, uh, excited about something.

I'll say, well, just
sit down for a second.

Okay.

Do you hear, and I mentioned something.

Do you hear the refrigerator?

No.

Okay.

We'll sit down and wait
until you can hear it.

Okay.

I hear it now.

Do you hear cars outside?

No.

Okay.

We'll sit down and wait till you hear it.

Do you hear the birds outside?

No.

Okay.

And I'd use, and I, and you can do
it with any one of your senses, touch

and smell and, and feel, but I'd, I'd
always use the hearing part because

I found in order for me to hear
these really quiet things, I have to

stop and kind of be calm and I find.

Yeah.

And I, and I found that to
be a good approach with them.

All of a sudden they're now present.

They're out of that environment
where they're just, they're in their

head and they're all worked up.

And, uh, for me, I found, I find that
to be a good way to, uh, decompress.

And so when I'm out for a run or
I'm out for a walk or whatever

it might be, I'm out hiking.

Um, I find the exercise is a very valuable
thing for me, but unless I'm actually

engaging, like, okay, do I actually smell
the plants that are growing around me?

Do I hear the birds?

Do I hear the rustle of the
squirrels or whatever it might be?

Uh, I find I need to do that personally
in order to really kind of be present.

Megan Hine: So true.

Yeah.

Well,

Travis Bader: um, Megan, I
really appreciate you taking

the time to be on the podcast.

I really enjoy this conversation.

Thank you so much.

Megan Hine: Thanks for having

me.