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The healthy post-divorce is a perennial favorite around these parts. But what happens when the divorce process is not so peaceful? We’re taking on the antagonistic divorce on the Toaster this week.
Show Notes
The healthy post-divorce is a perennial favorite around these parts. But what happens when the divorce process is not so peaceful?
We’re talking about exchanges of power in the divorce process. Subversive or passive aggressive texts, emails, and calls. Secrets about money and property. Fights. They all lead to a more combative and complicated divorce, and may lead to questions of safety. What can you count on from your legal team, and what’s on you to resolve? That’s this week as we take on the antagonistic divorce on the Toaster.
- (00:00) - Welcome to How to Split a Toaster
- (00:26) - Changing the Power in the Relationship
- (03:17) - Doing Nothing
- (08:26) - Levels of Fighting
- (09:13) - Reaction vs. Response
- (13:40) - Finding Power in Not Engaging
- (15:31) - No Such Thing as a Sweetheart Deal
- (19:42) - Getting Through the Fear
- (23:33) - Getting Over the Fear of Calling an Attorney
- (25:40) - Setting Clients at Ease
- (29:14) - Having Your Lawyer Ghost Write Responses
- (30:30) - Dealing With Blowback
- (31:12) - What Your Lawyer Can & Can't Do For You
- (33:09) - Options If You Can't Afford a Lawyer
- (35:52) - When Domestic Violence Is Involved
- (39:44) - Wrapping Up
Creators and Guests
Host
Host
What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?
Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStoryFM. Today, When Toasters Fight.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everyone. I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright as always. Pete.
Pete Wright:
Hi Seth.
Seth Nelson:
We are just going to talk about how to change the dynamic. We're going to change the power in the relationship. The buttons are no longer going to work when they try to push them. That's what we're doing today.
Pete Wright:
That seems like a very grand idea. I can't wait to hear how you manage to do this. I feel like we've talked a lot about relationships, making relationships great after divorce. All of these divorces that are really ... I don't want to say happy but at least they're constructive. Would you agree?
Seth Nelson:
Yes. We've talked about redefining your relationship in a way that is not destructive.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I know people are out there thinking, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Great for them.
Seth Nelson:
So those are rainbows and unicorns and little fairies flying around. I would love to have that relationship but my spouse is not capable of having that relationship because here's all the crazy things he or she says to me. Like I don't care about the money, you'll get nothing. If you don't sign this agreement without talking to a lawyer, then when you talk to a lawyer I will burn it all down or you'll get ... This is the best deal you're ever going to have, I'm going to take it back and you're a terrible mother or are the children even really mine.
Pete Wright:
Really, really destructive kinds of conversations.
Seth Nelson:
Not only are they destructive, when I hear these types of comments coming from the other side and here's how it comes to me. "Seth," a potential client will say. "How do you deal with a narcissist? Because my guy is the worst guy." And I say, "First off, if I had a dollar for every time a client said that their spouse was a narcissist, I would be long retired by now."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
It's amazing to me how many relationships start loving and caring and three years later, "Oh my god, they're a narcissist." The reason why ... I'm not saying they are or not, it's a psychological term that is very narrow. Now it doesn't matter to me whether they're classified as one or not. What I suggest to people on how to deal with people with those types of personalities or those types of communications is very simple. Do nothing. Less is more.
Pete Wright:
Okay. I need you to be real specific about that. What does do nothing mean? It means just stay in the house in the relationship? Assuming again that you don't feel like you're in any physical danger? What does that look like?
Seth Nelson:
No. You want to go through a divorce, you've reached your end, you're going to move forward. That's not what I'm talking about.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
So Pete, you have friends. They've told you about the divorces. They say crazy stuff that their exes say. Do you have any examples or make one up.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, well, I mean one that immediately comes to mind is a spouse that is using their phone, their text message, texting their spouse really horrible things, and under the guise of, "Oh, it's not important, it's just a text," but they're horrible things, horrible. Names, profanity, accusations that are just absolutely not true, but they're just really horrible things and it's continuous and never seems to change.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, so the person that's sending the texts, if you're that person listening out here, stop texting. Go buy a hammer and break your thumbs. Don't do it, okay?
Pete Wright:
I expected you to break the phone but the thumbs, I appreciate you going to the source.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. The phone is not the problem.
Pete Wright:
Right, right.
Seth Nelson:
The person receiving the texts or someone blowing up their phone or all of that, remember a couple things. One, the reason you have a cellphone is for your convenience and nobody else's. Check the texts once a day. I know ding, you got a text waiting, ding, you want to look at all that, ding. Have some self-control. Be like, "I know this is crazy. Crazy is calling. I'm going to do that a little later. I'm going to do it when I'm not driving." Never text while driving to everybody, but I'm not going to do it around the kids. I'm going to wait until after the kids are in bed, and then I'm going to read them all at once. Especially if you have kids and the kids are with you, this is not an emergency. The children are with you. Focus on your kids, not on the crazy. Then you read the text and it says, "You're a horrible person. You're terrible. I can't believe that you're doing x, Y and Z." There is nothing constructive in that text. Don't respond.
Pete Wright:
What do you do with a text though from your perspective as a divorce attorney?
Seth Nelson:
What do I do with that text in trial?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. What do you advise your clients to do with those texts as they come through?
Seth Nelson:
Save them.
Pete Wright:
Save them?
Seth Nelson:
Yep. Because this is the question I'm going to ask in trial. "Sir, do you think this is an appropriate way to communicate with your co-parent."
Pete Wright:
It's a hard question to answer when you're staring at it. Probably on a big poster board, right? You blow it up nice and big. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Don't even have to because all I'm doing, the smart answer, which they never give is, "No I do not."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And then stop talking.
Seth Nelson:
And then stop talking. But instead it's going to be and why, the question why is a question I rarely ask in trial unless I want ... I'm baiting somebody, and I'll be like, "Well why did you send that?" Because here comes the blame, here comes the excuses, here comes this. "Oh, I was just so angry." Are you unable to control yourself when you're that angry? It just leads to it.
Seth Nelson:
So when you're receiving these texts, one thing is awesome. Look at what I can show to my lawyer. Not to show that he's such a bad guy because judges get tired of text messages and it goes on and on and on and on and on, but it's really what can your lawyer do with that text. It opens the door to all those parenting factors that we talk about all the time.
Seth Nelson:
Now don't worry about it for litigation purposes for this because when you're going through this, the last thing you're thinking about is, "Oh, how is this going to play out at a trial?" That's just how my mind works. But in the meantime, what in that is worthy of a response?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, probably nothing.
Seth Nelson:
So if I texted that same person those same words, it would have no impact on them because they don't know me. So you have to almost treat the person there like you don't know them, and they know how to push your buttons, you've been married to them. They know where to go, but when you don't respond the way they expect you to, they freak out.
Pete Wright:
That's baiting. It's the same thing you were just talking about. They're just baiting each other by sending these kinds of divisive and destructive messages. Can we talk for a minute about just the word fighting? Does fighting have any sort of legal connotation that we need to understand as you're working through a divorce process?
Seth Nelson:
If someone tells me that they're fighting, my question is is there physical violence. If you're arguing and yelling at each other, I'm going to ask is that in front of the kids. Are you bickering? Arguments have levels. We had a little spat. We were bickering. We got in a big fight. There was violence, boom. That's a big line -
Pete Wright:
Yeah, there's a fork in the conversation. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right, okay. That's how I kind of look at that. But I'm really focused on responding to these texts, not reacting. The difference between reaction and response in my mind, reaction is without thought. Responding is with thought. So let's say there's a long text berating you for something. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not. We're not going to get into a texting war on this because otherwise I'm going to advise you to go to Home Depot, get a hammer and break your thumbs.
Pete Wright:
Right, right.
Seth Nelson:
So what we should do is actually think about it, read it. It goes on and on and on and there's a little sliver in there about summer camp for kids.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, and buy eggs.
Seth Nelson:
Right. So let's just respond to that. Always, and this sounds crazy, thank you for your text.
Pete Wright:
Wait. Wait a minute. Why? What are you doing here?
Seth Nelson:
I'm saying you text back, "Thank you for your text. I really do think it's important to figure out summer camps." Because you took that whole thing and weeded through it, you thanked them for it which is going to immediately throw them off, and then you're saying, "Yeah, I do think we need to think about summer camps."
Seth Nelson:
It's hard without specific examples, but let me give you some examples that were just classics that I've heard. Okay?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, sure.
Seth Nelson:
Let's just do a hypothetical. Husband is texting just awful things to the wife. Then finally the wife says, "I've heard all this before. Can you come up with any new material?" Now it's really funny.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it's funny, it sure is funny for a podcast.
Seth Nelson:
Right. But it's not going to play well in court. So anything like that is either don't respond or I don't believe this is constructive for helping us co-parent.
Pete Wright:
That's why I wanted to go down this road of what is fighting. Because there is this sort of overt fighting, yelling and screaming at each other, calling each other names in front of the kids or not in front of the kids, whatever it is, it's not doing you any service for your post-divorce life together. Just generally bad vibe. Scream, yell, bicker, whatever you're going to call it. Then there's the subversive passive-aggressive fighting. When you have that bit of ... When you're able to grab that great one-liner as a response to a stupid text, and you use it, you're just getting down in the mud, right? You're just doing the same thing they're doing. You're baiting back, and that's just as destructive.
Seth Nelson:
Absolutely. Absolutely. It blows people's minds when they hear me say, "Don't respond." They're like, "What?" I'm like, "What good is going to come of you responding? They're trying to manipulate you. Are they playing mind games with you? Are they pushing your buttons? Which they know how to do because you've been married, and they expect exactly ... They know what you're going to do, right? You guys have been in this dynamic before and until you change the dynamic, you don't change the power structure. You get power by doing nothing. Because they're used to you responding in a certain way. They're used to getting their way out of you in all sorts of forms of manipulation, control and power over your previous relationship and they're good at it. So you are the one that's in control, and you have to respond, not react to what they're doing, and change your behavior and then things get remarkably different."
Pete Wright:
That looks like what? I can imagine that can be very triggering for the emotionally abusive partner.
Seth Nelson:
Right, when you say something like -
Pete Wright:
Thanks for the text.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Right.
Pete Wright:
That's an inappropriate text message.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Thank you for the text.
Pete Wright:
I will pick up the eggs.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Exactly. No, but what I mean by it is if you just simply say something to the effect of, "I'm not going to argue with you." They like the engagement, they want the argument, that's what this is about. Then it goes on and on. "Oh you're too scared. You're this, you're that." It's this name calling. No need to respond.
Pete Wright:
Well in large part I imagine too because you've reached that point where you feel like I know that we're going to go down the road of separation and divorce and the truth is how empowering is it when you look at an emotionally abusive, verbally abusive spouse and say, "I'm finished arguing with you. I'm arguing."
Seth Nelson:
Right. I'm done.
Pete Wright:
"I don't want to do it anymore."
Seth Nelson:
Right. They're like, "We're going to litigate it in court." "Okay." Okay is such a great word, because in text, it doesn't have the connotation. Okay. Okay, right? It's all about tone with okay. You don't have that. So I really think, and I know I keep saying this over, respond, don't react, respond, don't react. I'm telling you, when you receive these texts, think about your response and what your objective is in that response. Think about do you want to get into a fight with them. If you do, respond back. Have at it. If you want to only focus on the kids and say something to the effect of thank you for your text and you pull out the one part about the key issue and then you start a new dialogue about that, great. If there's nothing about the kids, just say, "Thanks for your text but I'm no longer going to argue with you." If you just choose not to respond, that really freaks these guys out. I kind of place it on the guys. It goes both ways.
Pete Wright:
I just want to transition a little bit because what we're talking about is the escalating sort of theater of either aggression or passive-aggression that's going on in your communication. How do you make the transition to constructively moving apart from that? Because what I imagine and the example that's in my head that I'm kind of thinking through as we talk about this is there's a lot of fear and you made the comment as we started that there is a lot of power. There is an out of balance power dynamic in the relationship and saying things like, "If you go get an attorney, the deal is off the table." Saying those kinds of things when you're still living together, you know there is verbal and emotional abuse going on, you're terrified to make any move to call an attorney to do the things that you know you need to do to protect yourself and your well-being post-divorce. How do you transition -
Seth Nelson:
Not just post-divorce, but during the actual moment [inaudible 00:16:32] divorce, right?
Pete Wright:
Sure. Sure.
Seth Nelson:
So here's the thing. If you ever hear anyone tell you, "If you get a lawyer, this deal is off the table." I'm telling you to get a lawyer. Because it's a bad deal. Who cares if it's off the table?
Pete Wright:
Give me some background to that. Why are you saying that?
Seth Nelson:
Let's say you and I are in a contract dispute and you tell me Pete, "Seth, I'm only going to pay you 10 grand. If you go get a lawyer that's off the table." I go get a lawyer and my lawyer looks at it and says, "10 grand is a good deal. Are you now not going to do that, Pete? You were willing to do it 10 minutes ago. But the fact that I got some comfort in it, what do you care? It's still 10 grand to you." I've never seen a case where someone said, "I'm going to give you a sweetheart deal and if you don't take it, if you go talk to a lawyer, you're going to get a crappy deal." Then if you actually look at the two deals, the first one wasn't really a sweetheart deal. And if you don't have the information to even do the analysis on whether it's a good deal or not, you can't accept it.
Pete Wright:
I think I'm a naturally skeptical person so when I hear things like if you get a lawyer this great deal is off the table, my first instinct is this is a terrible deal, they're hiding something.
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely. Have you ever in your experience heard those words and had them not actually be hiding something? That it was actually a sweetheart deal?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I was about to say, I've had it where they weren't hiding anything. My client just might not have understood that it was a sweetheart deal. I've never had it where it was a sweetheart deal.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Never had it where it's like, "If you go talk to a lawyer this deal is off the table." The answer is like, "Well then I guess the deal is off the table."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Because what they're doing is they're going to manipulate you with the things that they think are going to play to you saying yes. "I'll pay all the bills for two years."
Pete Wright:
That's a terrible deal.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Well if you've been married for five minutes, that's a good deal.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I guess that's true. Context is everything, but if you've got five kids and you're not the major income earner in the family and you've got to figure out how to do that, two years is nothing.
Seth Nelson:
Here's always a good response. "I'm sorry if that deal is off the table because this is an important decision and let's assume I want to accept that deal. I want to make sure that it's written up properly. I'm entering into a contract. I want a lawyer to write the contract for me. What's wrong with that?"
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. There will be if you're the one trying to protect something.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. They will be like, "Oh I don't want anyone involved." Here's the main reason they don't want a lawyer involved. They lose control. Because now, there's someone else in her ear or someone else in his ear.
Pete Wright:
So how do you navigate that? How do you guide clients who are generally legitimately afraid of that conversation, of having to hide the conversation that they're even talking to an attorney for fear of retribution. How do you navigate that?
Seth Nelson:
I tell them simply, "You're not required to have a lawyer. I strongly advise that you have one, and here's why," and I lay out a parenting plan, equitable distribution, alimony, child support, everything else, and they said, "I don't even have the information to get this done." I said, "I will try to resolve your case. You are the decision-maker." Your lawyers I believe should be telling you, if you want to make a bad deal, you're allowed to make a bad deal, but you should be informed about it.
Pete Wright:
You should be informed about it. I just mean take a step further, that they say, "Okay, I know I need an attorney and I want to retain your services but I'm terrified of navigating these very complicated waters. Is there something in the divorce process or can the law protect me in a way that ensures that I will still get some sort of a fair deal out of this?"
Seth Nelson:
That is all about the communication with the lawyer. It's all about saying, "Yeah, look, with the information you're telling me, and the limited information I have in the 30 minutes I've been on the phone with you and you not knowing really all of your finances, here's what sounds good about this, here's what sounds bad by it. Need a little bit more information." I know that doesn't sound like a good answer. Then I'll tell them, "Do you like to bake?" They'll say, "Yes." I'll say, "You've just said, "Seth, how is the pie going to turn out but I don't know all the ingredients yet?""
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Sure.
Seth Nelson:
But to get over your fear, which is what we're talking about, is acknowledge that you have the fear and now you have a choice. Are you going to be paralyzed by it and going to feel the same way you feel now a year from now? Or are you just going to roll over and sign anything to be out of this? Or are you going to run to a lawyer's office and say, "I need help," and then you can say this, and this is so easy for me to say and hard to do, live your life, not your divorce. It's in your head, it takes up every waking moment. You're worried about all this stuff but the more information you have and the more we can unclutter things, the waters, make them more clear on what you have and how it all works in your jurisdiction, you're going to feel better. If you come to me and say, "We bought the house during the marriage. My name isn't on it. I'm so afraid to lose the house." I'm going to tell you, "In Florida you bought it with marital money, it doesn't matter that your name is not on the house, it's still marital property." "Okay, I feel better."
Seth Nelson:
"He's saying he's going to take the kids from me and I'll never see them again." "What's the worst thing that he will ever say that you did to your kids? Not even what you did, just what he said? Make it up, what's the worst thing he's going to throw at you? What's that bomb." Then I'll tell you, "You're not going to lose your kids." So having the information and making sure you get that information which is power because when they're harping on you and don't talk to a lawyer, don't talk to a lawyer, don't talk to a lawyer, they don't want you to have the information because they're trying to control you. And go talk to a few different lawyers and make sure it's a good fit.
Pete Wright:
Right, right, and we've talked about that before. The value of talking to a number of different attorneys, both as you have said strategically and just having all the information that you need to have.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, but here's the other problem which we haven't mentioned, I know you're thinking about this Pete. "I don't have money for a lawyer."
Pete Wright:
There's a lot of anxiety built up in that because we have fetishized that attorneys are expensive practically in pop culture.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, and they're horrible and ruthless and -
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of a pool? A good start. I mean, there's all these jokes. So on those notes, some lawyers won't talk to you without an initial consultation fee, some will talk to you free consultation. I do free consultations all the time. Like we talked about before, have your list of questions and give your attorney enough information for you to start getting the information you need and then you can talk about the cost and one of the questions is going to be, "How do I pay for it? I have no access to any money but this is what I think my husband makes or this is what I think my wife makes." Talk through how they approach it. How quickly can we get in front of a judge to order that he has to pay some fees or to order that he's got to give me alimony or pay child support? How long does that take and what are the steps to get there? What can I do in this craziness to make your job easier? But that's a fear and it is terrifying to call a lawyer.
Seth Nelson:
Most people have never dealt with lawyers. I get that that is a huge step. Like, "Oh my god. I talked to a divorce attorney." You should feel better at the end of that conversation. Not necessarily by what they're telling you is going to be, "Oh my god, you're going to be fine for the rest of your life or your kids are going to be amazing." But you should understand more, and that understanding demystifies the process and if something is unknown, we always think the worst.
Pete Wright:
For that fear specifically, right? Calling the attorney, having never dealt with an attorney before. My hunch is that attorneys are experienced with talking to people who've never dealt with attorneys before. What is it that you do? Can you describe a little bit about how you set people at ease the first time they're talking to their attorney?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, absolutely. You call me up, Pete. The first thing I'm going to ask you after I get through the conflict check and make sure I didn't talk to your husband 20 minutes ago, what is your goal for this conversation? I am here to serve you today. What is your goal? Most people can't answer it and they'll tell me, "I want to make sure that I'm going to be safe and the kids are going to be fine." I said, "I can't do that in this conversation. What I can do is give you information." I'll say, "Where are you in hiring a lawyer? Have you talked to other lawyers? Is your goal to hire a lawyer today?" They'll be like, "No," and I'll say, "Okay. My job and my goal today is not for you to hire me."
Pete Wright:
Right. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I've got plenty of work.
Pete Wright:
That takes a lot of pressure off, right?
Seth Nelson:
Right. I've got plenty of work, and if we're not the right fit, I certainly don't want you to hire me. In fact I might not let you hire me. But I think what I do to put people at ease is meet them where they are. Are you afraid? What have you talked about? What's happening at home? What are you hearing? What are your goals? Then we start going through the process and I start giving them information and I give them information in a way that I believe they're actually going to hear it. Then sometimes I'll pause and I'll make a little joke like, "Unannounced pop quiz." They'll be like, "What?" I said, "Yeah, you didn't expect that today."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Seth Nelson:
Then I'll say, "What did you just hear me tell you? What will happen in the parenting plan?" Then they'll repeat it back and I'm like, "You got it." I'll be like, "You know what? I understand why you said it that way. I don't think I explained it in a way that you understood. Let me try again." Now I'm taking ownership and responsibility and then I play a game. Because you know me Pete. I'm all about having fun. It's a game that I call bullshit.
Pete Wright:
Oh, outstanding.
Seth Nelson:
Yep, and here's the game I play. I say to them, "Tell me what your spouse is telling you and I'm going to have a response for you."
Pete Wright:
Okay. My spouse is telling me that the only deal that I get is the best deal that I'm ever going to get is by not hiring an attorney and just doing it, filing for a divorce right now and just being done with it and splitting everything on our own.
Seth Nelson:
Bullshit.
Pete Wright:
I had a feeling that's what you were going to say.
Seth Nelson:
You'll never see the kids. Bullshit. After the second time, most people pick up on this game. So the thing about that is they are just trying to manipulate and control the situation and it actually usually comes from a place of insecurity on their side. Which I'm not saying, like they're fearful, they're insecure, they want to control ... And especially if they're the abuser and you're the one saying, "I want a divorce." But it also happens when they're the abuser and they say they want the divorce and then you're like, "Why do they care?" It still happens, the same dynamic.
Seth Nelson:
So call a lawyer. Ask them, "How do you expect me to respond? How should I respond?" Ask them this question. "Will you ghostwrite some of my responses?"
Pete Wright:
Wait a minute. You're asking the lawyer to ghostwrite responses that you'll give to your spouse on some of these things?
Seth Nelson:
Do it all the time.
Pete Wright:
Would you ghostwrite my email for me going forward?
Seth Nelson:
Absolutely, Pete.
Pete Wright:
God I would love that.
Seth Nelson:
For a small hourly rate.
Pete Wright:
Again, should have seen that coming.
Seth Nelson:
Now, imagine this. They call with this lengthy text and the lawyer says, "Here's my advice on how I suggest you respond," and then you take the lawyer's advice and now they're going to get something else back, and let me tell you. That person knows that something's changed. Because it wasn't what they were expecting. That is not a bad thing and it's also very interesting to then see what happens and actually the abuser almost gets paralyzed. Because now ... And I tell them, "There's going to be blowback. This button that they've been pressing is no longer working. They don't just give up. They're going to press another button. So let's talk about what you think that button is going to be. Are they going to take it out on the kids? Now we've got to be very careful."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. This is like next level from the fighting and bickering and maybe emotionally abusive texting. This is like, "I really am fearful that they're going to take my five kids and get in the van and take off and I'm just not going to hear them anymore." When that is a legitimate next step, that's in your head.
Seth Nelson:
Then I tell them that's a 911 call.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
There are certain things I can do as an attorney. There's a lot of things that I can't.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, can you frame that box, the limitations that you have as an attorney?
Seth Nelson:
Let me tell you what I can do for you. I can give you advice and counsel on how to respond. I can give you information on the law once I get some of the "facts" from your case. I can help you manage the process. I can give you resources, like go get a counselor, focus on your kids, let's work on our wording. I can do a lot of things to help you through the process. In the legal process I can file a motion and ask the judge to make a ruling. I can go to a hearing, but if you've got a guy coming at you and your family in the middle of the night and blowing up your phone at 11, 12, 1:00 a.m., I'm not going to be able to help you then. I might be able to talk you off the ledge and calm you down and I've done that at those hours of the night. But call 911 or turn off your phone.
Seth Nelson:
Now there are a lot of people out there Pete that think that lawyers can solve everything, but we have a lot of limitations because I can get you in front of the judge and have the judge make the decision and give an order and then we still have to assume that the other side is going to comply with the order. I go to court all the time about people not complying with orders. So think about what am I asking my lawyer to do today. Some of my clients get it. "Seth, I know that you can't do anything to help me today. I just want you to talk me off the ledge. I want you to make sure that I'm making the right decisions." Happy to do it. That's part of being a counselor of law, advice and counsel. It's not always legal, it's like sometimes, "Hey, let's just think about and problem solve. Getting divorces, solving problems. Let's solve this problem."
Seth Nelson:
What happens if people can't afford a lawyer? Legitimately can't afford a lawyer, an abusive relationship. I'm now taking this to the next level. One, it's hard to do, but if you're being physically abused, call 911. Get out of the house. Almost everywhere, there are places that protect people from abuse. You can go find these ... In Hillsborough County we have The Spring where if you're abused, you can bring you and your children there and they will give you a free place to stay.
Pete Wright:
A shelter, sort of anonymous kind of. You're okay. You're protected.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. Look around and ask, if there any pro bono free legal services?
Pete Wright:
What does that arrangement generally look like? Are you familiar with it? Like they're services that are funded like foundation funding and that kind of thing that -
Seth Nelson:
Yep. Bay Area Legal Services. If you are at the poverty level below they have some sort of intake, and they have enough capacity, they'll take your divorce case. If it's a domestic violence, they'll represent you in a domestic violence situation. There's all sorts of free legal services out there for the poor and Pete, I never know ... I know our numbers on who's listening to the podcast, but for people out there, let's be honest, to listen to a podcast, maybe you're downloading, you've got an iPhone, the latest Android, whatever the case may be, I don't know what the socioeconomic classes of people that listen to podcasts, but if you're out there, look for legal services that are free, pro bono is another one to look at, and you can find these. Go to your local bar association and ask them. I know that in Tampa, they have Hillsborough County Bar Association does a free legal clinic. My associate participates in it. She gets on Zoom calls and they have a forms clinic to help people fill out the legal forms to file in court. They're out there, you have to look a little bit, you have to call, and you've got to look for help. If you're ever involved in domestic violence, you can ask a police officer, is there some place I can stay that's safe? They're going to know the resources.
Pete Wright:
Sure. Sure. Most important is, I think that at least for me going through this conversation is to understand where those lines are in what you can do as an attorney once your services are engaged and if you're really terrified when the line is crossed that you need to actually bring law enforcement into the process. From there I imagine you're of great help. If you bring law enforcement involved, it's an abusive situation, the machine has started.
Seth Nelson:
The machine started. Now let's be clear about something because people get this confused all the time. If there is domestic violence, a spouse hits the other spouse, and law enforcement is called and comes and let's say arrests the husband, that case on whether that husband gets charged with a crime does not happen by the police. It happens by the state attorney. That's the criminal setting. If the police come out and don't arrest anybody, you, the person who feels they've been the victim, can go to the state attorney and say, "This happened. The police didn't arrest him," and they can do their own investigation and they can bring charges against that person. You've seen it where police arrest someone and they don't get charged.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Case is dropped.
Seth Nelson:
Case is dropped. That is a state attorney decision. The prosecutor has an enormous amount of power. Now same situation. Abuse in the home. Husband hits wife, the wife can file what we call in Hillsborough County a domestic violence injunction. Stay away from me. Temporary restraining order. That is between one party and another, not dealing with the state.
Pete Wright:
Okay, so they don't have to prove anything, they can -
Seth Nelson:
You have to prove it in court. You don't have a cop and you don't have the state attorney and you don't have a public defender. It's not a criminal case. It's on the civil side. So where people might have heard of this before is we all remember the OJ trial.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
That was a criminal case. But then the family sued OJ in civil court for wrongful death.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And received money for that because that jury said he did commit this death. In the criminal case, they didn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. The standard is different in a civil case. So if you are the victim of domestic violence and the police don't do what you expect them to do, you can call a lawyer and say, "Can I get a restraining order to keep him away or just protect the kids?"
Seth Nelson:
If it's something against the children, there's another avenue to take. In Hillsborough County, we call it DCF, Department of Children and Family. Call your local whatever agency there is to protect children and they can step in. So now you've got three avenues. You can call the cops, you can call a lawyer and say, "Hey, is there a civil case to get a restraining order?" Or you can call the Department of Children and Family if it's against kids, and they all have different standards. That's why it's so confusing to be dealing with the law. But there are resources out there and I stress to people, if you're in these situations, you got to use them. Now we've gone -
Pete Wright:
And you don't need an attorney to do it.
Seth Nelson:
Not necessarily, nope. There are other agencies out there that will give you representation. Now we've gone a long spectrum here today. We've started with an angry text and we end up in domestic violence, and it can happen that fast.
Pete Wright:
And it can happen whether you're living in the same household, whether you're living under the same roof, or whether you've already separated and you've found a way to live apart. Like all of these things can coexist. That's the cognitive dissonance of the divorce process.
Seth Nelson:
That's right, and it's not a steady stream going up. It's up and down. But those are the things, but I really just have to hit on this point again, Pete. It's on the texting and the communication, so much is how you decide to respond differently than you have for all those years. I make it sound easy and it's not. Especially after a few glasses of wine.
Pete Wright:
Well I appreciate it Seth. This is a gloomier topic than we have gotten used to but I think it's an important one and I think if you're showing up to this podcast, maybe this is something you just need to hear. So please take it to heart. Let us know if you have any questions or comments. We'd love to hear from you and thank you everybody on behalf of Seth Nelson, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Speaker 3:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
This transcript was exported on Jun 01, 2021 - view latest version here.
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