Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast

Get your super soakers loaded, we’re talking Season 2 Episode 2, “Crossroads!” The Creek Freaks vibe out over Pacey and Andie’s natural chemistry, wonder how long Abby carried an oversized bottle of champagne in her purse, lament over Dawson’s continued arrogance, and more!

Non-Dawson Recommendations:
Cody - Songs: Ohia’s “Magnolia Electric Co.”
Stella - Bone Valley
Mal - Big Bear Bald Eagle Nest Cam
James - The Traitors

You can find us online @freaksandcreekspod on instagram or at our website,, and you can get in touch with us at 

Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast is produced by Stella Baldwin, Cody Dean, Mallory Freed, and James Ramey. Cover art by Mallory Freed. Mixed and edited by James Ramey. Original theme music written and recorded by Cody Dean and James Ramey. 
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What is Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast?

A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!

Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.

Welcome to freaks in Creeks. A Dawson's Creek podcast. The show where four millennials who missed the Bow 25 years ago take the dive splash for the first time. Join us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective week to week, and see if our adolescent experiences match up with Dawson and the gang. My name is Cody.

I'm Stella. Ah, I'm Mallory.

And I am James. And this week we're going to be talking about season two, do episode two, Crossroads. But before that, how is everybody doing? Wow.

So good.

Crossroads. Not to be confused with the Britney Spears film of the same name. Yeah. Wow. I haven't thought about that one in a while.

Thought about that, but it came out later.

Should we talk about that instead?

We could.

Should we just talk about Britney Spears instead?

Let's do that.

Brittany watch. Listeners, uh, write us in with emails about what you think about her Instagram posts. Yes, please. Is, uh, chat. Gbt writing her statuses. Who knows? Yeah, who knows?

Poor Brittany.

Poor Brittany. Well, I don't think we really have anything to talk about right now, do we? Am I mistaken? No, unfortunately not. Because no one has written us in what feels like a lifetime. Where are those letters, listeners? We want to read them on the air. We will tell everybody your name, first name, middle name, last name. We'll say where you're from exactly. We're going to give your birth certificate information. We're going to read, uh, your credit card information. Because, listeners, uh, I don't know if you've ever used our form, uh, fill response thing on our website, but it asks for your Social Security number. Your last two W, two S asks for your fingerprints, access to your devices, all of that kind of stuff. I don't know why more people aren't submitting these forms, but I guess that's a good, uh, reminder for people out there. We are recording this, uh, before episode one has released. So, um, please feel free to email us if you want to have any emails read in the beginning of the show at or throw them at the wall like wet spaghetti. If they stick, we will get them. If it doesn't stick, we're not going to know your message. So just keep trying until it sticks on the wall. Right? That's how they used to tell if you were a witch or not. They threw you at the wall. They threw spaghetti at the wall. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. For those who haven't seen, uh, the Robert Eggers movie, The Witch, a lot of spaghetti thrown at the wall in that movie.

How did, how did everyone feel about this episode?

I loved it, personally. This was, um, probably one of my favorites so far.

Yeah, I mean, I loved it, too. I thought there were a lot of good confrontational exchanges happening between characters. A lot of honesty, um, between characters. By the end of the episode. Uh, most of the characters, to me, are starting to feel more like real people a little bit, uh, especially Mitch and Gail, which I think the title Crossroads closely relates to because they're kind of at a crossroads in their marriage, trying to kind of decide what to do. And, um, I thought there was kind of more of their storyline happening, so that was nice.

Um, yeah, I thought it was interesting the way that they paralleled Mitch and Gail at a crossroads with Joey and Dawson kind of coming towards a crossroads and then also potentially Pacey and Andy at a crossroads. Everybody's kind of at these different forks in the road.

On the Dawson note, though, I really didn't like his continued self centeredness and lack of character development. There's still nothing happening there. We will talk about that for sure. Uh, also, I wasn't a fan of Abby using Jen to solve her own boredom while Jen's in such a vulnerable state.

Yeah, I think the, uh, one thing that I was a little bit surprised to see in season two is that in season one, they made a lot of just interesting character choices where they're like, yeah, this is the way the character is going to be now. I was expecting that not to happen in season two anymore, but I felt like they made a decision with Abby in this episode. They're just like, yeah, she's a mean girl. Like, a really bad one. Now let's make her even worse. She was kind of like an outcast before. Now she's just downright mean. She's always seems like a mustachioed villain to me, uh, but it seems like in season one, she was a clown. Like, no, I didn't really take her seriously, but in this, it felt a little more mean, um, spirited, I would say. There's something that's kind of dark about it, even though yeah, I don't really know what it is, but so far, uh, kind of getting sad about it a little, because I think Abby is one of my favorite characters in the show just because of how clownish she, uh, is. But now she's just becoming a mean girl, and I don't know how I still feel about that, but she's still my hero, my personal hero. I love her. She's, uh, the queen of my heart.

Not Andy.

Just kidding. That's Andy. Just don't tell Abby that Andy is my favorite now. Okay. I'm scared of what she'll do to me.

Uh, I love this episode. I think it is my favorite episode so far, and I feel extremely excited about moving forward. I feel like this just was like a launch, uh, going in the right direction. I feel like everything's about to change. Yeah.

Uh, I think this episode is a little better than okay. I think we're in a positive trajectory. I mean, like I said in our last episode, this is better than season one. Uh, but for me, I think as an episode of TV, uh, I don't really think The Wharf worked for me as a set piece and I think spending half of this entire episode taking place where I didn't really seem like they thought this through, they're like, oh cool, we can shoot in this area. But most of the action takes place walking back and forth on one little sidewalk. So that's not very exciting television. To me. Some of the character beats are pretty good in this episode. I really like that. Um, for a second I was very scared that the relationship, uh, well, this argument between Dawson and Joey about reading the diary, I was like, God damn it, are we going to have something that's going to last like eight episodes? And this is going to be the central discussion of every episode. But no, this ain't season one, baby. It was wrapped up a little too quickly for me but I'm just so happy that it was wrapped up and hopefully they never talk about it again. If this was season one, it'd be like just them, um, brooding in separate areas and then they won't even discuss it and then it would be carried over five episodes. Uh, it's true. But that felt good. Yeah. I'm glad that they were able to get this as a one and done. I'm sure we'll be feeling that ramifications of this episode, I imagine, for a while. But at least it won't be just that's the only thing we are going to be talking about forever. Yeah, I felt good. The writing wasn't as consistent to me as the last episode was but I'm still feeling pretty good about this. But you all new character. Yeah. Everyone is like, oh, who's this jack boy?

Little tease of a new character?

Yeah, we're getting a little bit of jack but more importantly, who's this daddy named Cole working at the Fishery? A fuck boy, all grown up. This guy absolutely rules. I hope he's a new, uh, character staple. I hope he eventually becomes the main character because I loved every second of him on this screen. Cannot wait to talk about Cole a little bit more.

Well, yeah.

All right. Well, we are talking about, as we already have been talking about, season two, episode two, Crossroads. This episode was released on October 14 of 1998 and I'm sure you've guessed it, but the episode revolves around Dawson's preoccupation with Joey causing him to forget about Pacey's big 16th birthday. Yeah, what a bummer. Maybe this is why I don't throw myself birthday parties. But, um, this is like a nightmare. Nobody knowing your birthday, the people you really care about not recognizing your birthday and then you throw yourself a party and it's terrible. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I actively try not to celebrate my birthday because anytime that I have in the past tried to celebrate my birthday, uh, falls flat on my face. So as an adult. It's just like yeah, it's just any other day. And if I give it any importance, then I'm going to end up, uh, like Pacey, running around a boardwalk with, uh, hot teens spilling beer on my body and then feeling bad about myself. Yeah. What are your guys thoughts on birthdays? We just got Cody's thoughts now, Stella.

Ah, yeah. It definitely stresses me out trying to plan things for my birthday. But then my friends are like, what are we doing for your birthday? Okay. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure. Definitely. I just like to go eat good food and do mine's coming up, for example. And we're probably going to go birding.

When you say word, does that mean all the listeners?

Yes. Everyone come birding with us.

Yes, please.

Bring your binoculars.

Dress up like a bird.

Yeah. I have mixed feelings about birthdays. I think there's always at least for me, there's always some level of sadness or disappointment. Um, but I like doing something fun and festive. I feel like Cody and I always go away for the weekend, which is nice. I like making it. I don't work on my birthday. I know some people that do. And I'm just like, what? No. Yeah. Fucking take care of yourself. Do some fun stuff.

More importantly, do you remember what you did for your 16th birthday? Oh, baby.

16Th? No, I had like, a, um, sort of surprise party. Um, I can't remember why it was sort of surprise. I don't know. But I do get a concussion. I do remember coming home and there being friends at my house. And then I think we all went to Montage, which is a well, it sort of exists. It used to be this restaurant under a bridge in Portland. Now there's a food cart. Um.

It'S just a restaurant under a bridge. Like, there's trolls under a bridge. Yeah. Well, there's this restaurant under a bridge. If you're a local Portlander, it's like, what? When you were a teenager, you thought, like, that's like a fancy, cool restaurant.

Yeah, because it was, like, open really late and it was, like, dark and moody. Served frog legs.


They served, like, all sorts of fun food and different types of mac and cheese, which was the best.

Oh, do you remember, um, when you foil yes.

They would wreck your leftovers in foil, but they would make these cool, uh, sculptures, like an animal or a flower giraffe.

Mine was always, I got a giraffe and a swan. I always remember long necked shit.

Yeah. So having my 16th birthday party there, I felt super sick. That's all.

I'm so cool imagining if, uh I feel like mostly me and James, if we worked there and they forced us to make, like, a thing, we just make, like, a worm. It's like I don't know what to do with this one long cylinder here. I got a swan. I got a dinosaur. I got a snake. I hope that's a snake. What did you do for your 16th birthday, Cody? Uh, three weeks before my 16th birthday, uh, the Nirvana with the lights out box set came out, which is like all their, uh, unreleased B sides and rarities. And I was a big Nirvana kid and I got that for my birthday and I did not have a birthday party. And instead, I sat in my room and just listened to that box set. And it was really cool. That sounds really cool.

Did you get your license at 16?

No, I did not get my driver's license until I was 18.

I think. Me too. I didn't get my license until 18.

I failed my permit test like five times. Wow. Yeah, I'm not good at studying so it's my Add. Ah. And it's also because I'm a moron. You and Pacey have something in common. Yeah, I'm a Pacey. Uh, I believe I was wearing a bowling shirt then. Wow.

What about good times? I actually don't remember. I'm like, racking my brain right now and I cannot remember what I did.

On my 16th birthday. I know I probably had a party with some friends, had my license and.

Did you get your license on your 16th birthday? Yeah, I think I did. I know I got it when I was 16.

Mom took me to the DMV. I waited in line, felt very adult. What a good time. Unlike Pacey. Poor guy.

Poor guy.

Anyway, back to this episode. So yeah. Um written by Dana Brado. We mentioned them last episode and directed by a new name. I'm curious if you all know this person, denny Gordon? No. I always just assume that it's just going to be like some if you're a TV director, you're just like interchangeable and you pretty much just work for the studio. What an interesting career that person probably had. And they got to work on this amazing episode of Dawson's Creek, which, as we mentioned, we introduce another new character I'm so happy to meet jack. Uh, yeah, Jack, Andy's brother. Um, don't look related to me at all. Do you guys think they're related? Uh, I wanted to get into this a little later but he, to me, looks like the male version of Joey. Oh, he's a white guy with like a little, like olive skin tone. He's skinny, um, a little sassy. Like if he told me that they were siblings, I'd believe it. Yeah, I believe that a lot more than him and Andy. Yeah, because Andy is, uh, she, uh, looks Irish as hell. Yeah. Well, I guess, uh, it's that time, huh? After Dawson and Joey are caught playing tonsil hockey in Dawson's room, mitch and Gail can't stop giving them sex advice, all while contemplating their own relationship. Dawson and Joey Doey Dawson are so infatuated with one another that Dawson completely forgets about Pacey's 16th birthday and their initial plans to go to maine to celebrate. Having just failed his driver's license test and wanting to vent, pacey talks to a very depressed Jen who encourages him to go celebrate and live his life as she knows all too well what it's like to get forgotten about by Dawson. Later, Jen hangs out with my personal hero, Abby Morgan on the bleachers during gym. After a, uh, back and forth over the ways they got of having to exercise that day, abby becomes enticed over Jen's New York experiences and wants her to dish out all the hot goss. Meanwhile, at Joey's, Dawson proclaims during an intimate canoodle that he loves that he already knows 100% everything about her. When Joey leaves the room to check on a crying baby Alex, dawson takes a gross little whiff from her perfume bottle before popping open her diary. His face becomes sullen and when Joey comes back to the room, he abruptly makes an excuse to leave and exits, leaving Joey confused and sad. Oops, I poop my pants. Oops, I poop my pants.

So with, uh, the first scene when Joey and Dawson are making out, do we think that this is Dawson's parents first time figuring out that they're in a relationship?

I feel like it has to based off of their reaction because their gale looks mortified.

Well, their jaws, like, jaws dropped. Is that surprised?

Let's listen to this really quick. I capped this because I couldn't wrap my mind around it. Let's take a listen. Um, mom and dad. Hey. Um, you remember Joey, right? So that's my reaction to my parents in my bedroom while I'm making out with my girlfriend and they are just staring at me. It's like, oh, hi guys, how's it going? Uh huh. How's your day?

I can't believe they didn't even have the door closed.

I know. I'm surprised that there wasn't a record scratch and then Dawson being like, you're probably wondering how I got here. Yeah, it felt like that's what we were getting. It's just, uh, very odd. But we have to talk about what they're watching on the TV. This is a, uh, boner euphemism, right? Yeah.

You know that they were all like, this will be so silly. Let's put this in the writers. Let's put a sausage infomercial going while they're making.

Why? So the infomercial is selling a product that you would put loose, uh, meat into and it would create a sausage. Is that how it was.

Happening? This I thought of my grandpa because he used to make sausage. He had his own sausage maker and it was probably this one and you have the casing and then you crank the meat into it. I actually looked up a little bit about this, uh, guy that's selling this. Um, I guess he's a pretty famous infomercial guy. Really? This was like the world class sausage maker that everyone wanted. You can go onto YouTube and find his infomercial and they're hilarious. Who's this guy? Okay. I actually didn't write his name down. It's.

Okay. I think it's interesting that we're now moving beyond the we're watching movies in the beginning of the episode, or like we're forming our relationship around that to now feels like some commentary that they don't even give a shit about what's on, they just have something on while their relationship is kind of like coasting. Right. It's in the commercials. Um, I don't know, I thought it was interesting. Uh, sorry.

Ron Papille. Ron Papille?

Yeah. You know him? No. That's just one I mean, I don't yes, I know him. Yeah, he's my uncle. Was he at your 60th birthday party? That's what I did. Me and Ron, we hung out. No, he's just one of those names that I remember from the 90s hearing all the time. He is an American inventor and marketing personality. And looking at his picture. Totally. I remember seeing this guy's commercials all the time. Look at that old man. M oh, yeah. Okay.

Yeah. What a face.

What a face. He'll sell me anything specifically a sausage.

Maker and pasta maker in one. Wow, that seems counterintuitive.

I know. Vegetarian or something. Yeah. Did anyone else think it was slightly erotic? The way that Mitch's hand was slowly going across the television screen?

I thought horror.

Movie. Has anyone seen David Cronenberg's video drone? While M listeners, uh, who hear this, that are fans, uh, of that movie will know what I'm talking about. That movie involves a character that gets enraptured with, um, basically snuff films. And it's like a haunted VHS tape that turns ah, the TV screen into this sexual thing that sucks you in. And it basically turns you into a zombie killing machine. It's fucking insane. You have to see that movie. It's amazing, but very, um, similar imagery of like a sexy hand, like going across a TV screen.

It was a rock. Yeah, that was a fun touch.

I was really uncomfortable with it because the only thing I could think about was, why is he taking so long to turn the TV off? It's because he's watching Dawson and Joe. Right. And that just feels really gross and incestuous and obviously voyeuristic and uh, yeah.

I thought he was just trying not to disturb them, but I know that's the point.

Maybe he was being creepy. Not mutually exclusive. Good point. We get our second look at the intro credits.

Stella, check back in. Yes. So definitely. I think Mallory this was Mallory's favorite too. The pacey, and Joey shimmying on that. I love it. Doc post. Yeah. So silly. And Dawson's like, in the background.

I paid special attention on this watch and it made me think of the videos of the bears that scratch their back on the tree. So I like more. Cody, did you have a favorite moment last time? Um, yeah, I just talked about how I like the VHS footage and how it seems to fit the aesthetic of a child using their daddy's camera for the first time. That's right. More than like a kid given like a 16 millimeter camera. Um, pacey's outfit. I love Pacey's outfit. Cody, you mentioned earlier his bowling shirt, but it's like is it terry cloth?

Yes, this is a terry cloth collared. Terry cloth, um, button up. It's so much better than a bowling shirt, though. Ah, I feel like that actually in this whole episode. Pacey's, uh, outfits are great. His shirts, all of his shirts are way better than we've ever seen in the past. So definitely I'm excited about that.

Yeah. Do you think that's because it was his birthday and he's like, I look nice?

Probably his three day.

Birthday shirt.

Anyone, uh, notice his hair?


I thought it was does that happen because it looked reddish? I think they dyed his hair because he was filming, um, something else where he actually had to have bleached hair and that's why it was bleached in the first episode. But my thinking is his character dyed it, but they also dyed it because Andy picks out the color with him or whatever and it's supposed to be like a brown. But does that happen if you had bleached it, would it turn red like that? I just thought it was I think it was just the color was not his exact match.

Okay. Maybe. I mean, yeah, brown going from like, your your hair is, uh, bleached and going back to brown. I'm I'm sure if you're using like a shitty store bought mhm color, like, it's probably not going to work as well as you intend it to be. Should just have like, rubbed dirt in his hair. That's what I do. Yeah. Strange. Um, I do have to thank the driver's ed class scene for giving me this little audio clip, which I love very much. That's too bad. We really need another juvenile delinquent. Chowderhead on the road. Chowderhead. Is that our first chowderhead reference that we've gotten so far for this show taking place on the East Coast and Massachusetts adjacent? Why have we not heard chowderhead more often?

That's a great question. Is that a, ah thing that people say?

Oh, yeah. Yes.

I don't know if I've heard that term before.


Chowderhead. What does that mean? Just like it means like a stupid person. Um, yes, and I looked up the origin because I was curious. It's, uh, a mispronunciation of, quote, jolterhead. A, uh, derivative of the 16th century insult.

Jolt head man. So they really got fucking down in the 16th century.

It was used literally for a large, heavy head. Wow.

Yeah. Wow.

Because I had never heard of that.

I wonder why. That's strange. Why did we lose that insult? Your head's really heavy, Cody. Chowder head. I think a derivative of that would be saying, like, someone's dense, thick, gold and chowder's thick. It's also delicious. Just like somebody's brains, uh, in this room where they're all testing. I find it interesting that when they're having a shot, reverse shot with, uh, pacey and the teacher, uh, behind the teacher, you see children getting their photo taken for their driver's license. So this seems like a very expedited process where they're doing it all in house. Great, you passed. Here's your photo. Blah, blah, blah. It seemed very quick. Don't you have to do a driving exam?


Are they all just like, all right, now you're in your vehicle, uh, turn the keys, class, and they're all at their desks.

Like, anyone else go to a class for driver's ed? I did. Mine was more like, uh, at home thing. And then I just did the drive. I had like an instructor, but I.

Didn'T do the class. And the only thing I remember about driver's ed class is they had these funny glasses that they made you wear when they told you about not to drink and drive because it simulated what it was like to be drunk. And then you and your partner would have to throw tennis balls at each other. It was actually very fun. Um, it was definitely an exciting part of the class. And I don't think it had the desired effect because I was like, shit, this sounds cool as like a Dare kid who was definitely not drinking at that time. I was like, M, I kind of want to get down on some lose.

My driver's ed was in one of those, uh, trailer portable things. And they had ah, a driving simulator. Everyone had their own little steering wheel.

Lived in the future, back in the kit.

Yeah, it was.


Did they simulate like rain and snow and like, driving in different weather and stuff?

Like militant?


I'm imagining like, the Jurassic Park driving game at the arcades. Is that what it was?

Like? Maybe a little bit.

It's just a Jurassic Park driving game that you were playing.

Maybe there were Danish driving the Jeep. Well, I, uh, was just going to say this instructor kind of starts off the kind of theme of basic's day that he's having a bad day and he's having a terrible day. Like this instructor is just telling him he's basically poor, dumb, and M starts off his fantastic birthday. I want to know what question you missed.

I know. Yeah. I have more of a question of teachers, uh, in the 90s being mean because it seems like such a theme in this show. I mean, every teacher is an asshole in this. But it seems like a lot of other media too. Teachers are awful and just treat kids like shit and are very open about you flunked another one. It's just so commonplace. I wonder why that trope seems like more of like a 50s thing. I can very easily imagine a 1950s teacher being like, you Chowderhead. I can't believe you got a D on this. Are you so and so I'm going to scrap you by the ears and make you drink my piss. Boy, when you're 18, you're going to Korea. Uh, yeah, I mean, I had a really mean teacher when I was a kid. Just one. And ironically, I'm pretty sure she was my first grade teacher or third grade. Either way. Either way in elementary school and she was so fucking mean. And other than that, all of my teachers, my entire education were either neutral or pretty positive, pretty friendly. So I wonder yeah, I mean, you're right, that is a very dated reference that I, uh, think was on the way out. And that teacher that I had that was really mean. She was not to be ageist, she was older, so maybe she had been a teacher for a while. Yeah, that made me realize why you're saying that is I very much do mean, like, high school teachers because also my experience too, in elementary school, all of my teachers were mean. I went to a private Christian school. So it was like a lot of like, you're going to hell. Yeah, well, you are. This is true, it exists. Uh, uh, but yeah, like in high school it was ah, I couldn't have been a better experience of like, all my teachers being like, oh, like you, you're obviously, um, a Pacey. So let's like try to figure out like, what's going on. Like, is it because you have ADHD or is there like any like, special things that we can do to help you out? Very positive experience in Capeside? Not so much. Everyone is from the 1950s and they want to kill Pacey. Well, he is the black sheep of the town.

Poor Pacey. Um, I am wondering, uh, this could be like a whole other conversation that I don't know if we really want to get into, but how much your parents had like a sex talk m with you.

Um, yeah, they have a very interesting methodology here which is just to kind of not beat around the bush. They're being very direct and blunt, but they're also not saying or doing anything aside from giving Joey that book. I mean, I guess Mitch has the really great know how the stats, which as an analyst, as somebody who is data minded even, I was like, what in the fuck are you saying here, dude? But he has this line which, um, I love. Remember Dawson, no hat, no glove.

No mitch, honey, that's no glove. No glove.

Yeah, well, you, uh, get the point, Joey. No hat, no glove.

So silly. Um, I did love this thing though, because it looks like Gail's just casually reading a book and then we find that she's reading a teen pregnancy book. But if you pause the page she's showing Joey is about sexual massage. Oh my God.

Yeah, it looks like a Commasutra.

Yes, it's basically like that. I don't know. So it was like she. Was reading it for herself.

That's what I think. Isn't that what your parents did with you guys? Yeah. Show you the Commasutra? No.

Weird. Um, did anyone understand, uh, this dig from Papa Dawson when he says, um, like, still clueless as ever? Yeah, it was about Mitch and Gail. We are still clueless as ever. And that's why Gail looks kind of worried. Right.

Um, I think it was one of those things that we're supposed to feel like, oh, it's one of those things you say, but then after you say it, you realize it has, like, a double meaning that is more malicious. And I think Gail is taking it as potentially he was trying to insult her when he was really just saying, like, still clueless as ever. We're still figuring it out. Right. But she's like, what do you mean? I didn't know about the divorce thing, mhm. Which I think is an interesting bit of writing because I think that shows you it's kind of relatable. Everybody has those moments where they say something and then they're like, oh, fuck. I didn't mean it that way.

Sorry, mhm. Anyone else have any thoughts about, uh, sex talks? Let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about yeah, I'm surprised they didn't use that. When did that song come out?

I don't know. While we're talking about this clueless as ever part, I wanted to play this because Gail says something in the beginning, and it felt really confusing and out of character for her. Uh, let's listen and I'll explain.

Our baby's growing up. Seems like just a blink ago, he was coming home from the hospital, and here we are a thousand years later, clueless as ever.

Does she sound weird to you guys? In the very beginning of that, she sounds drunk as hell. Yeah. More of, like, New York. Let's listen to just the beginning one more time. I'm going to skip this part.

Seems like just a blink ago, he was coming from a blank ago.


I wonder if she is from New York and that it was just like a little slip or something.

Yeah. For me, it just sounded like just her, like, slurring her words. I wonder if that was like, an ad lib.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know.

I wonder.

It was really hard re watching, uh, this episode multiple times to take notes because I just kept, like, daydreaming off of what they were talking about when I said blink. I was like, I wonder if blink 182 is a reference to a time measurement. I was like, 182 blinks ago? What does that equate to? And then I was like, oh, yeah, I'm watching, uh, Dustin's Creek. And before you knew it, the episode was over.

Uh, she's from Florida. She won Miss Florida USA Pageant and was third runner up in the 1975 Miss USA.

Got her go.

Look at that.

Okay. Gives a different meaning to the, uh, Miss Windjammer pageant.

Oh yeah.

Interesting. Well done. Freaks and creeks team. We got there just a season late. We got there, um, yeah, uh, I thought it was kind of like when Pacey and I'm going to fast forward a little bit to Pacey and Dawson interacting for the first time at school. Poor Pacey. Like, I've been there. You're in a bad mood, your day is going shitty and then somebody is immediately just jumping into their problems and you're like, dude, shut the fuck up. My life is kind of falling apart and Dawson just has the worst response ever. I mean, he can't help but shoot himself in the foot here. Um, and poor Pacey, listen to this. Joe and I are together a week and my parents are already shutting condoms into my pockets. You don't have anything to say to me? Nothing at all you want to say today? What's up with you? Uh, uh, nothing, man. Forget about it. I hear Joey con. Yeah.

Good burn.

Got it. Poor pacey, though. Yeah. This is where I feel like the writing is a little weaker than the first episode because the first episode of the season. Because in that one we were all talking about how like, oh, surprised by the nuance of everything and how they were leaving a little more to our imagination of thinking what might be going on with these characters where this just like all of it just felt so obvious to me of Dawson. Dawson's not I mean, he's kind of like a goof and stupid character sometimes, but he's not that, uh, clueless. Clueless? Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's supposed to be like, love drunk right now and not really know what's going on with his other friends, but for Pacey to be so direct with him being like, really all the days, uh, you don't know what today is, why today's special. And Dawson's like, that g golly, whiz, I wonder what Joey's wearing right now. It just seems so foolish and like writing that a kid would do. I don't know. I agree. I think this episode I like this episode. I'm not as down on it, but I do totally agree with you. It does feel like this episode was basically a PSA. It felt like, uh, something that they would play in a dare program about like, don't go too crazy on your relationships. Kids remember you need to have friends and a girlfriend. And also remember kids don't invade other people's privacy. It felt like that but then they gave it a teen drama spin instead of it being just like a Reefer Madness style PSA. Yeah, I really like morality plays, um, when done right. And again, like you said, I liked this episode too, but it just felt all of it was very obvious. There are so many better ways you could probably talk about these issues without it being so, like, I don't know, Dawson just being so blind to the world is low hanging fruit. Yeah.

Kind of story. It might have been more effective if like, he wouldn't have maybe interacted with Dawson that day because Dawson was like, spending more time with Joey and.


It kind of forced Pacey to be he was non confrontational in that moment because he could have been like, it's my birthday, don't you remember? But then that doesn't have the effect of the build up of him confronting him later about being more honest. But it's interesting.

I don't know. I think it's done a disservice by the fact that we have no idea how much time is transpiring in these episodes. We know it's never clear, even in this episode. Um, I'm, um, like, wait, is it are we on the same day? Has it been two days? Has it been three days? But we also don't know how long it's been between the last episode. So all we've really seen is Joey and Dawson interact like, once and Pacey's like, man, it's too much because it is too much on this specific day. But it's also hard to remember that Pacey's turning 16. Oh my God, he's a 15 year old up until this episode. Oh my God. It explains a lot of their behaviors, but they are not it's so hard for me to remember that a lot of the time. Do you think it would do a disservice in the show to have, like I'm, um, just trying to think of the opposite way of doing this. Like, if they did a title card to be like the next day. Obviously no one wants that because it's, um, obnoxious. But I wish this had a better system to let you know. Uh, like, days are passing, months are passing even. Just like a little fragment of dialogue just to be like, wow, it's crazy that it's been a week since when.

Dawson's telling Pace in one of the scenes about the diary, he says, Last night. I read something in Joy's diary last night. But then he says, Today's your birthday. Which his birthday was yesterday. Yeah. So that was a little goof. It was definitely goofy. A little goof that they had there.

Yeah, the show doesn't yeah, I don't know. I think what this episode or what this show needs is the Law and Order gong gong noise between every scene.

Yes, that would be, um, so one thing I really liked about this episode, uh, is I feel like there was a lot of callbacks to season one. Um, so in the scene with like, Jen and Pacey, they talk about Molly Ringwald and The Breakfast Club. Um, and then I think there's also a reference to, um, the the kelp, the restaurant. Um, there's, uh, something about Dawson's movie. There's like a bunch of stuff. Um oh, the thing where Andy says something about, um, sometimes older women. Like younger.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah, there's a lot of little nuggets of context that if you didn't watch the first season. You can still kind of catch those, uh, that's a good point. Beyond the same line. Yeah. So I thought that was fun. Like, kind of like having that, um.

I like self referential stuff. That's fun. James, like you were talking about in our last episode, this isn't ignoring its first season. It's allowed to accept it as its own canon, warts and all. And so what you did see did happen. So we're just going to have to in line with our narrative.

And also yeah, it felt like I feel like all those things that I did kind of or a few of those things that I just mentioned were things where, like, what happened to the movie? Or what happened to the restaurant? And now it's kind of like, okay, well, they didn't forget, or maybe something is going to happen with the restaurant. Um, so I kind of appreciated that. But yeah, I really liked this scene between, um, Pacey and Jen and talking about the Molly Ringwald, uh, movies and Pacey saying that he's done being the sidekick and wants his own storyline.

Well, I was confused about that because this is the thing that we complained about the most, I think, in season one, is that Pacey is only given his own storylines. It always felt like the gen Joey Dawson stuff was in one corner and then the B story was always Pacey with either Miss Jacobs or something else. It wasn't until later on in the season where Pacey started feeling more integral to the group and they were becoming the core four. But I was surprised that Pacey, at this point, is saying, I want my own storyline. I mean, uh, he's obviously the underdog when it compares to him and Dawson, he's the Robin to his Batman. But still, you were already getting your own storyline. It is like, so meta too of him to say that. I mean, it's clearly a screenwriter writing the line of dialogue, I want to get my own storyline, speaking as that character. Right. But still felt a little funny to me. It, uh, was confusing.

Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I wish he would have said, I want something more positive storyline or something because of course he's had his own storyline, but it has not gone great for him. So I think probably he means he wants a better storyline for himself.

I took it as him. He wants agency. I think he wants to feel like he has some kind of control over his life, because I think to all of our points, it is a little bit of both are true. Because, yeah, his story has always been on its own, but it's always been kind of in response to everybody else. And what they're doing is why he's on his own. And I think in this moment, he's kind of saying, you know what, fuck it. I'm choosing my, uh, story now. I'm not just going to go kind of like bide my time or do my own thing because I have to now I'm going to do my own thing by throwing this awful party.

He does say, I'm going to get my own storyline too, so there you go, he's going to go get it.

I just kind of wish that the show had done a better job as, um, reinforcing. That Pacey and Dawson were the dynamic duo that they're inseparable best friends and they do everything together because it's harder for me to think of Pacey getting his own storyline and stepping out from Dawson's shadow if I haven't really seen that to begin with. I wish there was like an episode where it's like, uh, I don't know, just like thinking off the top of my head here. Like they go to a party and everyone's like, hey, it's Dawson and Pacey. Or just like say something where it's like, oh, they're always together but everyone thinks of Dawson as the one who's like the head honcho and they had all of those opportunities in season one to do that like the road trip episode. They could have been like, yeah, we're doing another one. Or at the house party one. They could have had that exact interaction you were just talking about but they never did that. Yeah, it wouldn't be too hard to even have a scene where it's like if Dawson and Pacey are hanging out and maybe have two or three girls show interest in Dawson but no one's ever paying attention to Pace just to show that he's always the one to be like, man out, I don't know. Or Dawson being like, hey Pacey, could you be my wingman in this situation? Blah, blah, blah, just to see, uh, he never has. Yeah, I don't know, but aside from that, I really like correct me if I'm wrong, is this like the first substantial sequence that we've ever seen where it's Jen and Pacey like talking and pretty much yeah.

Other than, I think the beauty contest, they had a little bit of an interaction, uh, but this is more substantial for sure.

Yeah, I liked Jen's advice of like, who gives a shit about Dawson even though she's not taking her own advice, but just like go celebrate. Like live your life. Like you don't have to be so connected to Dawson. Yeah, it mhm felt cool. Yeah. My favorite thing about this scene is something deep, very deep here. Okay, you guys ready? In the background of this scene while Jen and Pacey are talking and we've got all this great plot happening and it's so cool. I didn't care about any of that shit because in the background, you know what there is the creek and you know what's happening in the creek? Boat. M boat go by Small boats go by with little men, little men rowing these small boats and what are they doing? It's like crew boats right, but they're rowing backwards. They're traveling along water backwards. They're traveling backwards. Time travel, time regressing. Just like we're seeing Dawson doing, just like we're seeing Pacey doing, just like we're seeing kind of the whole show is kind of going backwards through time. And I think also maybe we're going to start traversing through space and time. Maybe we'll even traverse the multiverse and we'll find out that this clone simulation experience that we were talking about last week is actually all very true. I actually really like this. Um, I mean, I obviously love the clone stuff, but about, uh, traversing time and space again, one issue I did have with this episode as well, is, uh, just like, the pacing of events, because it's right after the scene of Jen and Pacey talking. Is Jen then at school talking to Abby on the bleachers? And we never got a buffer between those points. So it's like, did she just teleport there? That should have been something that happened after a commercial break or something because it just feels so awkward. That so abrupt. Jen was plucked off of the boardwalk and then dropped back into school and it looks like the sun is kind of setting too. So it's like how much time has passed in these like two scenes being.

Back and it was only a couple of scenes before where she's waking up in the morning with Grams.

Uh, and what's really confusing is the scene that's immediately after which the Jen and Abigail at school is Joey's room. So they could have easily just put that scene between Dawson, but they didn't. And it really confused the fuck out of me, uh, in the episode. But I do love Jen and Abigail's conversation on the Bleachers.

Calling her Abigail. Yeah, Abigail.

Well, she's Abigail to me. Well, maybe Abigail.

Graham's called her Abigail that morning.

What? Graham's called Abigail?

No, I'm saying sorry, Abigail. I'm thinking Jen. I'm thinking Jen. Because Jennifer, of course. Yeah. Graham's waking her up and it's similar to Pacey, she's starting off her day terribly. Yes, m, that's true. Also, uh, Graham singing the Gloria Hallelujah or whatever, showing off her opera chops, which I mentioned in season one. Um, this actress, Mary Beth Pale was an opera singer and stage ah, actress. So you definitely hear that in that scene.

Yeah. Also trying to catch a glimpse of all of Jen's posters in a room REM, um, poster, a filter poster. There was something else that I couldn't quite make out.

Yeah, there were a couple that I think are up still there from last season but I didn't recognize them. Oh, another thing that I liked because yeah, I feel like similar to Pacey saying I want my own storyline or whatever kind of hitting the nail on the head about them being in a show of Jen saying you can say hell on network TV now. I love.

That. Uh, did you want to talk more about her bedroom.

No, I was just going to say this sets up her kind of like, uh, she's in a vulnerable state that morning and then now she's on the Bleachers with.

Abby. Yeah, there's something really meaty there too, with Graham's. She says that line that's like, I don't even recognize you anymore, like you're not yourself. And it really does feel like this entire episode is Jen being like, I'm going to try a new character. It seems like Jen is now doing the Pacey thing of like, well, uh, being me didn't really work to get Dawson. So now I'm going to try to be, um, Abby maybe. Or I'm going to try to be a little loose and not sexually, but, uh, um, it's easier for her to adapt to new personas as a way to get what she wants.

Well, I kind of felt like before when she was in New York, she was a party girl. And so this is maybe her kind of regressing. Like, she came to Capeside to have a new life and now things are falling apart and I think she's, like, falling into this depression. So it's probably easy to her just to fall back into being like a little party girl.

Yeah, it's interesting. The interaction between Abigail and Jennifer and Abigail yeah, between Abigail and Jennifer on the Bleachers is very interesting to me because Abby are you all fucking happy? Abby is like, basically she's doing her mean girl shit, right? She's like, your life is clearly boring, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Bet when you're in New York you didn't do anything. And Jen, uh, is getting kind of like shit all over by Abigail. And it isn't until Jen fires back with this that she finally starts to get some respect from her. This is what she says.

I bet you never even got into a club. The things and places I have talked myself into and out of would blow your mind.

Yeah. All right, so once she says that we see Abby kind of visually, she's like, okay, well, have you been here? And then Jen goes back again. She's like, that club is so last year, basically. And then finally they're best friends, right? Like, now they're in on it and it feels like you're right, Cody. Jen is trying this new persona, or, uh, Stella, to your point, she's regressing back to this previous life that she used to have that she was trying to get away from. It's really interesting. I don't know. I like this moment a lot. I feel like we're getting to actually see something from Jen. Mhm. I think regression is a really interesting thing, uh, that you've brought up as a theme because I hadn't really thought about that. I think that's really strong. And also this, um, regression and also characters like, mirroring one another. And I'm wondering if they're trying to now make, uh, the Dawson and Pacey relationship even though I was just criticizing how they haven't done a very good job at setting that up. I wonder if the mirror to that relationship is now going to be Jen, uh, and Abby. Maybe Abby is supposed to be like Jennifer and Abigail you mean? Oh, jennifer and Abigail. Yes. Sorry. Jennifer and Abigail. Um, but I wonder if Abby ah, then might be the Dawson and Jennifer is going to now be jesus Christ Jen. Jennifer is going to be ah, like the Pacey under her wing. Like she's the Macavillian, you know, mustache twirling evil person. And now, uh, we have the apprentice as a Jedi master and Padawan situation versus the Sith. So maybe this is all a Star Wars thing. I don't know. Maybe I believe it.

What's with all the fake medical conditions?

I love it.

Pelvic another one.

M. Yeah. Heart stripe. Pelvic lupus. But by the end of the season everybody is going to have a fake.

Condition. Well, this next big piece, this is it.

This is the meat of the episode.

You mean the paper machete palm tree? Oh my gosh, okay, I was wondering what that was. Ah, I thought maybe it was a lamp. I didn't think it was paper machete. I thought it was paper machete.

We're talking about Joey's room which we.

Talked about last episode. Yeah, I thought it looked like a really poorly painted ceramic thing. I couldn't tell, I was like, what is this thing?

It looked like, um, uh, sideshow bob from the Simpsons. Yeah, absolutely. I love that Dawson is so obsessed with this idea of knowing everything about Joey and he calls it pretentious when talking about the getting to know you crap. Which is uh, I think everyone can agree that's the most fun part of an early relationship is like finding out who your partner is or um, a possible partner is. And it makes me think if we're trying to boil down who Dawson is as a character, one thing that he's extremely ambitious about movies but everything else he is really flimsy with. He doesn't really put that much effort into anything else. He just kind of wants things to happen for him. So I'm wondering does he think that getting to know someone he just equates that as this kind of work that's like boring and so he's just like oh that's so great that I don't have to put any effort into this other thing. Uh, because that sucks for me. I hate putting effort into actually getting to know a person and I'm just going to assume I know everything about Joey. I don't know if that's a thing but it feels like why the fuck does he not care about wanting to get to know someone? I think see, I had a different read than that. I think he is like I'm so glad we can get past this pretentious getting to know you phase because he is so arrogant and so self centered and so egotistical that he thinks his powers of observation are such that he clearly knows everything about Joey. We've known each other our entire lives and to admit that he doesn't know something about Joey would be admitting that he isn't as smart or observant or wise as he thinks he is. Good read. And that we know Dawson is nothing if not up his own ass. Right. He thinks he's like the smartest, most intelligent dude in the entire world. So I think for him to admit that there are things he doesn't know about Joey is like, admitting that he isn't. It's basically him being like, oh, I'm not smart to himself. Mhm, uh, Joey's diary is five pages long. Anyone else think it was ridiculously?

No, but I noticed that Mona Lisa was on.

Yeah, her diary was very strange. Uh, I would have preferred that the violating entry that Dawson read was more recent than like, halfway through last season.


Because that's what they're talking about is Dawson making his movie? We haven't fucking talked about this movie at all. So couldn't they have used something more recent to make it I know, to make it feel a little bit more egregious or something like, there's some meat there. Because I immediately read when that is, what ends up being revealed is what was read. I'm like, okay, clearly this is because she's dealing with her emotions that she's repressing that you knew that she was doing back then, you moron. I agree with you, but I think the reason they did focus on the movie thing is kind of how last episode we talked about the cinema is his church. It's the only thing. His faith is surrounded by movies. So the fact that she would criticize the thing that's like the most important to him, I imagine that writers room they had on a whiteboard. It's like, what will hurt Dawson the most? And it's like, we could talk about him having a small dick. We could talk about, um, how his hair is a stupid haircut. We could talk about all these different things and it's like, oh, but what would hurt the most? Him being a bad filmmaker? Because that's like, the only thing he's ever actually expressed interest in. But it is lame. Like, they should have done something more recent that would have more of an effect, um, because that would be more realistic right. To their relationship and something that would cause them more hurt. But, um I don't know. My favorite thing about the scene is, um, that I'm just going to play this.

I thought Alex was smiling, but it turns out he just had.

Gas. I feel like, uh, that's what I want people to say about me. It's like, oh, I thought he was smiling. He just had gas, though. Yeah, I haven't actually smiled in ten years.

That is a, uh, baby thing. Mhm. Yeah, I've taken care of infants and it definitely it's like a thing that they do when they have gas. It looks like they're just like being happy or silly. And we now know that baby Alexander is alive and well. Yes. Thank you. At first when I was watching the scene, I thought she said a different name because she said it so quickly and she said Alex. I thought she said a completely different name and I was like, wait a second, like the baby's name just changed.

I know this show's obsession with full names. I was expecting Alexander. Yeah. Honestly, I'll, uh, open myself up a little bit and tell you why I call him Alexander is because that's, uh, Wharf's son's name in Star Trek. That's the only way I can remember it. It's like Wharf's son is Alexander, so that means that Bessie and Bodie's son is Alexander. I don't buy the romantic chemistry between Dawson and Joey at all, especially in this scene. Him pulling her up into his lap to kiss her before the baby cries and baby do that whole everything there was just so phony to me. And then him getting upset and leaving like that is just like, I don't.

Know, just smelling her perfume.

Uh, yeah, that was disgusting. I wish it's again, one of those things. Listeners, you're probably frustrated, uh, because you probably have some hot details about what it was like to be on set. There's probably some information about how maybe those actress didn't get along. Maybe Katie Holmes was just like, very not into, uh, James Van Derby or vice versa. It's very possible, but they do not have chemistry and it feels extremely forced when he's, like, holding her and touching her ear. She does not look like she's having fun and he doesn't look like he's having fun either. So it's like, yeah, it's hard to see that and think that they're oh, yeah, this is a believable relationship. And then to see Pacey and Andy and they're not a relationship at all, but they have so much chemistry, you know, and we're like, yeah, they're just friends, just meeting and they're not interested, you know, like, confusing to me. Well, I think it's time for our first break, is it not? It is indeed, yes. All right, we will be back soon. Bye. And we're back. And Pacey begins papering the school with flyers for his party that night at Bailey's Wharf when Dawson runs into him. He still doesn't remember Pacey's 16th birthday and laments about Joey's diary mocking his horror movie and filmmaking prowess. Pacey finally explodes, telling Dawson that he doesn't care and he's sick of hearing about Joey and that Dawson's life isn't interesting. Elsewhere, Andy asks Joey about giving her brother Jack a chance at a job at the Ice House, to which Joey agrees. Later, when Pacey puts a flyer on Andy's car, they bicker again over the prank she had pulled on him from the last episode involving convincing. Senior cheerleader Christy, that he had a fake illness called a heartstrike. When she asks about the party, he tells her she is not invited. Meanwhile, Dawson finally confronts Joey about her feelings regarding his derivative and objectively bad horror movie and quotes at her with lines directly lifted from her diary, revealing he had read it. She's rightfully upset and storms off when he tries to apologize. At the Ice House later that day, he backpedals and says she needs to apologize for what she wrote all, uh, while Andy's brother Jack shows up and gets hired on the spot, joey ends up telling Dawson that he doesn't know her as well as he thinks he does. Concurrently, Mitch gets relationship advice from his longtime buddy Cole, who tells him that they should have an open marriage and avoid divorce. While back at the Leary household, Graham's tells Gail she needs to do everything imaginable to make the marriage work. All the while, Jen tells Abby some spicy stories of the boys in New York City, and Abby suggests they go to Pacey's party that night and drink an enormous bottle of champagne that Abby had been carrying around in her bag all day for God knows how long. I love the idea that she's just had that bottle in her purse for an occasion. She just keeps it. You never know when you're going to need it. Today was the day. Left some warm champagne all shaken up. I mean, if you're 15 years old, all champagne is good champagne. She calls it imported bubbly.

Yes. Damn. So Pacey, like, really standing up for himself and fucking going off on Dawson. Love to see that.

Yes, um, me, too. I thought it's about goddamn time.

Yes, I quoted it. He says, uh, no offense, but I don't think anybody cares. Want some advice? How about this? Your life is not that interesting. And Dawson looks pretty shell shocked. I know. And for a moment, I almost felt sorry for him because he looked like he was going to cry. I can't imagine someone saying that to me. That would feel pretty intense. Um, but he clearly it doesn't sink in at all. I think the next time we see him is his interaction with Joey where he's like, it's all about me. I already apologized for reading your diary. And it's just like, okay, so do you not understand?

He's incapable of seeing other people. He's got main character syndrome. And it's unfortunate that he is the main character because we're seeing that that is being rewarded, but he cannot comprehend that other people have a perspective in his life or about his actions. I know we've talked about this at length, but the fact that this is Dawson's Creek and he's the main character, and it's like, obviously, we watch TV, we read stories, we watch things like this, because we want to see a main character have an arc. We want to see how they transform over time due to situations. I mean, that's like the point of any kind of narrative structure and storytelling. But again, like you just said, he's always rewarded for his bad behavior and lessons are not learned. So it does feel, uh, strange. I can only imagine the trajectory of this show is that he does change over time and he probably ends up being an adult and learns from his past experiences and is no longer a little baby boy who thinks the world revolves around him. That has to be the trajectory of the show. But it just doesn't feel, um, good. Again, it sucks that I'm kind of like, taking a step back from something that I gave this a positive attribution to. But the fact that this entire argument is wrapped up within the next like, 20 minutes and uh, I can only imagine, doesn't, uh, really affect later on, like, things within their relationship unless she brings it up. It feels like, oh, so he gets his cake and eats it too. He fucks up his relationship with Pacey, but by the end of it, they're bros again. And then also pretty, uh, wrongfully yells at Joey for having an opinion about him and then at the end of it, they still get to make out. So it's like, not really good. Not a good look. Uh, if this is supposed to be the morality tale that it is, uh, where is him getting any kind of he should be canceled. But like, there's like no like, constructive criticism that other characters should be giving him for this kind of bad behavior. Instead, everyone just, uh, loves him and thinks he's king. Yeah, it's unfortunate. You nailed it on the head. The fact that it's buttoned up in 20 minutes is unfortunate because violating somebody's trust, invading their privacy, betraying them, that is a serious thing. I don't think he ever gets it ever. Truly. I think by the end of the episode he still believes, well, I've apologized for this, so what's the problem? And I still think that by the end of it he does still think that Joey shouldn't have said those things about him and that he doesn't think that there's an issue with reading the journal. He might be reflecting. And anyway, it really is unfortunate. If this were like a different I don't know, I'm just trying to think, how could you still have these themes and, uh, let him grow from it? I wish that he had read from her diary and this still happens. But then maybe during the episode, um, Mitch and Gail are like, going through his room trying to find evidence of sex or something. And maybe they find like, condoms and they're like, well, we know this is from a twelve pack and there's eleven in here, so where's the other one? Have you been having sex? And then he's like, oh, so that's what it feels like. Now. I've actually had this experience for myself. And now I understand how much I hurt Joey by doing this or like something, I don't know. Yeah, because effectively this is what we're kind of left with here.

You read my journal.

What's it called for me to see?

Oh, not unless it blew open or you suddenly developed X ray vision. I mean, how dare you? You invaded my privacy. I mean, I could sue you for this.

What I'm really curious about is what else is in that journal that you don't want me to see? That's your reaction. Not to completely switch gears, but we're introduced to Jack in this and does anyone else, like I mean, it's still early, but does anyone else feel like this is going to be, um, the competitor for Doctor? I was wondering that, uh, there's the very funny shot of her later looking out the window and wishing she was at the party and then he is the one to be like it seems like, uh, they're trying to introduce maybe something a little bit there and he enters in this moment of conflict between Dawson and Joey. So you can't help but feel that there's competition in there just because of that framing. But I wondered that too, because initially I was like, oh boy, there's going to be a new boy for Joey here. And maybe he plays like the cello. I know she loves string players. Uh, completely forgot about that guy Randolph. What was his name? Something like that. Anyway, uh, but then later, like you're saying he kind of is just there. He comforts her. Anyway, so it feels like in that moment he is kind of just putting himself as a friend, as a confidant, almost as like, uh, somebody who knows more than Joey. So now I'm suddenly like, how old is he?

Is he an older brother? Is he the same age as Andy? Is he older? Younger? I mean, it feels like he's a.

Little younger, maybe, but he seems so young initially. But as the episode progresses, I'm not as sure. Yeah, again, I mean, my criticism of the writing in this episode that feels like, um, what a clunky introduction to his character for just like a random off scene of Andy be like, hey, by the way, I have a brother. Can he work at your, uh, restaurant? And then later he just shows up and he's like, I guess I'm hired now. Yeah, if you're getting 24 episodes for a season, you'd think that his introduction would have warranted an entire episode and it would be about the Ice House. Seems like he's just kind of like shoehorned in there.

Or also like the first introduction of Andy and Joey. Uh, and that scene is Andy and Joey's first introduction and then it's Jack and Joey's first introduction.

Yeah. And you'd think that at least it's the first time getting to see.


To your point, Cody, that we call me Dawson no. Uh, at least we would see him do something of his own volition. Right. He is being, uh, like a force unto himself and instead he is being very passive and just Andy sets him up with this job and he shows up. I don't know, it's not the best introduction to him. I'm excited to see if we get more of him later. If he just continues for this season to kind of be like this afterthought.

I feel like we get a little bit of his personality when he's talking about the tartar, um, sauce or whatever it was and he's like, it's not that good. We kind of get a little bit of personality there.

I did like, um, the sequence where Jack is introduced, but it's the fight between Dawson and Julie. Uh, I do like the choice that it was handheld camera instead of stationary because mostly in the show it is like static shots. So at least, again, this is a show that's actually trying to actively think about the cinematography and try to incorporate it into the show's. Um, overall misenzen, but like, whoa. Yeah. Uh, you got your movie card back, maybe. Um, yeah. I think Dawson's Creek as a whole should be added to the Criterion Collection, but at least they're thinking, like, oh, let's try to make this seem like a little more intense. Uh, with the shaky cam. It looked pretty good.

Um, fast pace.

Fast pace. Yeah. It certainly made me stressed out. Definitely also just the idea of having a fight with my partner while I'm working publicly in front of all of these people and Dawson's fucking following Joey, basically shouting at her as she's, like, doing shit that is like, it just made my blood fucking boil watching that scene.

Also, just the way that he going kind of going back a SEC, um, when he kind of reveals that he's read the journal by at first complimenting her, like, oh, I was just going through my closet and found your costume. And yeah, thought about how good you.


The fact that he just wouldn't own up to I did this is also a little obnoxious.

Takes a lot of maturity to do that kind of stuff, though. And we know Dawson is a very immature person. Right. Despite, uh, pretending to have a lot of introspection and self reflection, he really has none.


Uh, but you know who somebody who has a lot of introspection and self awareness and has done a lot of deep work on themselves. Um, do you know who I'm talking about? Are you talking about my guy Cole? Yeah. If anyone was a walking Tom Waite song. Is this guy an open marriage old fisherman who keeps bottles of beer in the same ice as a dead fish? Yeah. I hope that he always has two bottles of beer. As soon as he takes those two out, he's like, all right, got to get some two more in there. You just never know.

Um, so Cole says that he's known, um, papa fourth grade since fourth grade. So that kind of like, also is like okay, so, uh, they've lived here their whole lives, which is like a.

Nice little, like kind of some world building. Ours hollow over here.

Yeah. Thought that was cute.

Yeah, it's like Game of Thrones when you think about it. This show is exactly the same as Game of Thrones.

And then also with this scene, it was very similar to the last episode, where they do that cut between the different, um the montage.


And we see Graham's advice versus Cole's advice.

That's another thing. It's so strange that they're willing to create a new character that's a friend of Mitch's. But then for Gail, they're not going to give her a friend. They're just going to be like, Grams will give her a friend. The racist old bag next door got.

To give her back the.

Tupperware. I was very happy that we got a new location, at the very least early in season two. So far, we're kind of treading old waters. So the wharf, as much as I hate the wharf as a shooting location to your point, Cody. And the fishery.

Hey, something else and more mention of the Kelp. Yeah, he's making moves on the Kelp rent's.

Kind of nice. Ah. So looking at Cole's fishing shack, I wonder what the space next door was like, because M, presumably it would be similar to this, which would be a really cool fishing themed aquatic restaurant. Yeah. Makes me think of all those restaurants in Newport, along the bay. M, Newport, Oregon. For listeners that are not aware. Google it. But it seems like it's the exact same aesthetic. Like, you see the boardwalk, you see the seals or whatever they are. Uh, sea lions. What the fuck are those creatures? Seals or whatever they are. Uh, what are they? Stella? You love them.

I know. I can never remember if they're seals or sea lions.

Children. I do not know the difference. Oh, my God. Listen, we have one on Mike right now, our very first interview. Okay, first question. Are you a seal or a sea lion? Well, we're ending the show. We finally figured it out. You heard it here first. But back to this scene here with Cole and Mitch specifically, and then juxtaposing with Gail and Graham's. It feels like we're just getting like do you remember the book Matter from Mars? Yeah, it feels like that, except it's like, wrapped up in a pukachell wearing pierced ear facade. Because he's just like, it's all about honesty and living your truth, and don't you want to be honest with yourself? And then Graham is just like, it's just about listening. Uh, honey, you just got to listen, my dear.

Just go renew your wedding vows. Yeah. I love that she refers to her husband as Mr. Ryan. Yeah. Thought that was really funny.

Mhm. When I'm dead, don't call me Mr. Raimi, please. When I'm alive, though, yes, you better be telling everybody I'm Mr. Ray.

Mr. Raimi.

No, don't call me Mr that's weird.

You asked for it.

No. Okay. I have to go back a little bit. Hold on. Take it back. This also feels like another instance of them trying to rewrite Grams as a more like positive, um, who isn't a bag of shit. Because I feel like if this was season one Graham, she's like, well, we have to remember that the men are the head of the household and women we support our men. Just do what he.

Says. Um, but I was pretty shocked that they are introducing the concept of open marriage in this show.

Very progressive for 1998. Yes. And for mainstream TV primetime teen drama. Also, when we're talking about open marriages.

I mean, if we can say, hell.

Uh, we can bring up open marriage. It does make me nervous, though, because I wonder if this is, again, morality tale stuff. I don't really know the trajectory of this, uh, b story of how long this is going to go on for. But let's say, what if they do open up the marriage and it ruins their entire marriage? And it's like, this is why you don't do anything outside the sanctity. I feel like that's the only way this show is going because there's no uh or they decide against it right before they ever get started. But I just can't imagine. Could you imagine if we get into season six and Mitch is like, oh yeah, I was just with my secondary. What in the fuck are we talking about here? I hope god, it'd be pretty cool if this, uh, became like an in the mood for love kind of situation. And so like, Mitch and Gail start dating like other people and then maybe the swap or something, they start falling in love with each other's person. What if on top of the open marriage, they introduce online dating and Mitch falls in love with some anonymous stranger online, and Gail falls in love with some anonymous stranger online and they set up their first date and it's each other? You've got mail. And then Tom Hanks becomes Mitch.

I was going to say maybe. It was like, I thought you were going to go towards like a catfishing situation and they both meet up with the same, uh, interesting. That's even better.

I like that. Where will this show take us? Space. Okay, uh, so let's talk about Andy and Pacey in the parking lot. Are we okay with that? Because I loved this scene. It reminds me of all of those moments in season one where I couldn't help but love Pacey, but I hated him. Now I get to just like him or love him. I don't know. But let's listen.

Um, put the charm on hold for a second. Pacey I was just curious. What the occasion?

Score. It's my going away party. I'm dying of a heartstrip I hadn't you.


It's so good. I mean, Pacey is so funny. I love the dialogue that he gets. I want to know how much of it was written for Joshua Jackson, knowing his acting style, knowing how he delivers, how much was him ad living and how much of it was just like the perfect harmony of writing and acting meeting. Because it really feels authentic in a way that almost no other character feels in this show.


Definitely. Yeah. I wonder if it is like a Joshua Jackson thing because, uh, thinking of the other things that I've seen him in, he is like that kind of like sassy attitude kind of guy. Um, don't kill me, nerds, but I've only seen like a handful of episodes of Fringe, but he's very much that character in that show too. So must, um, be a sassy, fun guy to hang out with. I love sassy, fun guys.

I did not appreciate Andy calling Christie mentally deficient. No. Could have done without that, but okay. Is that what you didn't like about Andy? Maybe back then when you uh I don't think that no, okay. I don't think that was a little bit of a mean girl.

But I have a note that you were right about Andy sabotaging Pacey because she didn't think Christie was good enough for Pacey. Was it you who that point, was it you, Cody? Somebody made the point.

I think that was Cody.

Yeah, it was me the whole time. Cody? I don't know. I don't wearing a Mallory mask when.

You did it, that's why I didn't think yeah, I don't know.

Regardless, we get confirmation. I think that's confirmation in my opinion that between the chemistry that we're able to observe with our own fucking eyes and ears what we saw in last episode with the heart stripe thing and then with this line, it feels like Andy is all but saying in the way that school kids do. I have a crush on you, Pacey. It is cute. And I mean, later in this episode she even refers like that other, like, oh, there's another bimbo who's trying to look at you somehow.

Um, also in this scene, I appreciated Pacey standing up for himself, being like, you know, it wasn't that funny. Yeah, um, it seems a little bit weird because in the last the way the last episode ended, they seemed like they were on good terms. But maybe he's just like, in a mood because mhm, it's his birthday and he feels really uncared for. But I did really like seeing him be really firm throughout, just kind of standing up for himself.

He needs a leather jacket for this episode because he's a bad boy right now. He's a bad boy. I think at the same time, though, him and Andy have already established their relationship as like, having, like, hurtful banter. Like, they love, uh, taking jabs at one another because it's the only thing they really know how to do with one another. But you can tell that they're both getting off on it, too. Oh, yeah. This is their love language, the two of them. Speaking of love languages, um, throwing my.

Mother off of oh, my God. Did you cap those?

I did. I ended up I capped a lot of this scene, so it was hard to cut it back to just a few. But yeah, let's listen. Wait. This is this is Jen and Abby. Jennifer and Abigail. God damn it. Use their full Christian names. God is going to be upset if you don't.

Oh, God, I would throw my mother off a bridge to go out with somebody like this.

I love that it's like a photo of someone that we can't see our imagination.

This scene, I think I don't know, maybe I'm reading into it, but this is like a little nod to the scene in Greece where they are all sitting on the bed, it's sleepover, and they're looking at photos of guys, and Rizzo pulls out the imported quote, imported.

Bubbly out of her bag. Yes. Okay.

It's so specific that it's got to.

Be that's really weird. So on, um, the day of this episode's release, like we talked about, October 14, 1998, do you know what the top movie on, uh, the box office? I'm going to guess Greece. It's practical magic. Now, why is that weird? Because one of the actresses, one of the key, most billed actresses is stalker Channing, who plays Rizzo in Greece.

And that's just a really weird little funny but I mentioned a Greece thing yes. In the last episode, because it's something goodness. But yeah, I think that it is kind of like Greece, where, um, uh, Sandy is kind of like the good girl next door, and they're kind of and all the other pink, uh, ladies are a little bit of a bad influence on her.


So there's Abby kind of being kind of a bad influence on Jen in this moment.

She's definitely a bad girl. Yeah. Anybody who walks around with a bottle of imported bubbly in their purse all day is a bad girl to walk in my book.

I don't know. I, uh, know that you all have opinions about Abby being a mean girl, and I do think Abby is mean throughout this episode. But I don't know, I felt like it was kind of like a sweet interaction, jen and Abby having that kind of bonding, friendship. And definitely Abby kind of I don't know, later, kind of like standing up for Jen.

Yes. Uh, it felt like for, uh, the first time in a long time, we see Abby's guard come down when she realizes that she doesn't know everything there is to know about New York and that she's not with it. In Hip, when Jen is talking about like, oh, all those clubs are like, so five minutes ago, Abby's just like, oh, shit. Like, I am not the top dog. Yeah. She says one of my favorite lines ever. It's very short, it's very sweet. Let's take a listen.

I mean, you have live.

Sister. I love that. It's so fucking funny to me. Let's listen again.

I mean, you have lived, sister.

I mean, you have live Sister, I think.

Later she calls Jen her sister friend. I think Jen says that to her. Yeah, sister friend or whatever.

Love. That funny. Well, y'all, that's enough of that. We're going to take a, uh, short break so you and I can go pee all over the place.

We love you.

Bye, you. And we're back. While Paisy sets up his birthday party at Bailey's Wharf, andy shows up and they have another fun, playful bickering sesh. He tells her to meet new people but she says she gets nervous and freezes up around said new people. Her attention turns to a cute girl in the boat and tells Pacey she's checking him out but he tells her he doesn't want to embarrass himself. As the party pops off, everyone is having a great time except for Pacey, who gets drinks spilled on him. He's clearly sad and lonely. Elsewhere, a super drunk Abby convinces a super drunk Jen to kiss the first man she sees. And of course, it just happens to be Dawson, who would have, uh, thought he's rightfully offended. And Jen scampers off, embarrassed. Dawson finally finds Pacey and asks him why he's so pissed, to which Pacey reveals that Dawson has forgotten his birthday. Even though Dawson apologizes profusely, pacey tells him that he feels the world couldn't care less about him and it sucks that Dawson is now included in the not caring crowd telling him that he hates being a third wheel. Meanwhile, at the Ice House, new hire and all around empath machine, jack recognizes that Joey is upset. He lists her spirits by saying that first fights lead to first makeups. He tells her to go find Dawson and he'll take care of closing up at the diner as if his less than a day shift has provided him with enough knowledge on closing procedures. And she leaves. Yeah. As a former retail manager and longtime retail employee, food service is different but the idea that somebody's first day I would just be like, yeah, you should close it up. Who cares? We're all good. Just the closing procedure of counting registers, all that shit is so stressful. I worked in retail for over a decade and it took me like months to even get it right. The amount of times that I had have had to double, triple, quadruple check a till after somebody who has worked there for a long time and normally closes can't get it's just like but, uh, I guess it's the who cares? Hellish work. Also, everyone out there that works retail. You are a blessing and a gift from God. And I am sorry for everything that you deal with on a daily basis. Yeah, it is hell.

So, um, I noticed a couple of times Pacey commenting ah, on Andy's wealth.

Yeah, there's a Romeo and Juliet type thing. Well, is that anyway, there's definitely like a, you know, like a battle of the classes going on here between Pacey and Andy. Yeah.

I'm kind of wondering like Jack and Rose. Thank you.

That's better.

Titanic. I'm kind of wondering, uh, where that's going to go.

The country club. Yeah. I wonder if we'll casey's going to get invited to the country club and he's going to, I don't know, have one of those clown flowers on his shirt that squirts ketchup on somebody and he's going to think it's really funny. Yeah. It's a tale as old as time. It's like the class differences of people that are dating. It's always, uh, pretty impactful. Look at The Notebook, everyone's favorite weepy, uh, sad movie. We got Jack and Rose from Titanic. Oh, tella are you crying?

I don't want to talk about either of those movies.

Is that also an issue in everyone's favorite Christian movie, a Walk to Remember? I feel like there's like a class thing there too. A little bit. Yeah. I don't know, it's later actually, um, where Abigail tells Jennifer that Joey, uh, is white trash or something like that. I thought that was Andy in this moment, but no, Andy's better than that.

Um, I did really like this whole banter between Andy and Pacey where she's talking about how when she's nervous, she clams up. She's like, you haven't stopped talking since I met you. Um, yeah, that whole interaction was really cute.

They have great chemistry. Speaking of great chemistry, when Pacey is just walking along the wharf, I am so confused because there are so many.

People here and so many boats. Yeah.

Are they all here for Pacey's birthday? Did Pacey just throw his birthday party in the middle of the mall and.

Just say it was birthday? He said it's a party. So, uh, he didn't frame it as a birthday. No, I'm just saying, uh, peer party. Yeah. So it's probably like, oh yeah, let's go party.

Let's all think back for when we were teenagers and we desperately wanted to drink alcohol and possibly hook up with people, right? Like, you were desperate to find that party. Right. And this is when we had cell phones. Can you imagine 1998? You're like, okay, where's the party at? And there's a giant flyer that says big peer party. You're like, true, of course I'm going to go to that. That's my one thing.

Yeah, I will have that funky beer.

Yeah, that ADR was so funny. You all know what.

I'm any guesses as to what the actor actually said in that?

I think she said this is flat because she really hits. The flat, like, mouse motion. And I think it just either didn't pick up or they thought it didn't translate, so they changed it to Funky. I picked it up. The audio clip for people who don't know, this is what we're talking about. Let's take a quick listen. Hey, ladies.

Having a good time? This is.

Funky. So Pacey's, walking up and down the wharf, he finds these people. He asks them that question. She kind of rolls her eyes at him and then says, this is Funky, and pours it in the water. And he takes it so hard. Poor Pacey, he's like, uh, so did he provide the drinks? I'm confused.

I don't understand. Uh, I did. Really? Like, immediately after that, those people kind of, like, run into him and they laugh, and he's like, that's so funny. Um, and he makes this really charming face. I feel like I keep falling more and more in love with him.

He's the best. Yeah. How far we've come. Uh uh, also, this seems like a missed opportunity for we still have yet to meet Dawson's. We haven't met Pacey's dad, who's the chief of police. And it's like, small town, one pier, everyone's getting drunk and they're all children. It's like, where are the cops?

Where's Doug?

At the very least, if this is Lake OSU, Oregon, if someone cracks open a beer and they're under 21, they said, the SWAT team, so what? And this is like, uh, a similar kind of town. It's, like, affluent. You think that all the cops would be there. And presumably this wharf is attached to some kind of yacht club or boat club. So, you know, the upper crust isn't too far off from this. And we have what we see visibly hammer, like, trashed teenagers in Jen and Abby who are falling over themselves. So sloppy drunk. Where are any adults? Know what my favorite thing about this entire party is? Not, uh, the drunk kids, not, uh, the party people. Not everyone dancing in their bathing suits. My favorite thing are the two bros with the squirt gun. I, uh, know they're supposed to be playing teenagers, but they clearly look 30 years old. And, uh, I just love the idea of, like, yeah, bro, get them.


If you and I lived in Capeside and we heard about some pesky teenagers throwing a party on the wharf, we would pull out the squirt guns and we would go pester them and squirt them all covered in water. I hope so. Uh, I just love the idea of including, like, bros of squirt guns. It's so funny that's on my LinkedIn page it says, bro, a squirt gun. We should move to Cape Side so we could be those guys. Those guys. Those guys. Those boys. Those guys. Last episode, we had the it's not about the first kiss, it's about the second kiss. And this episode, it's not about the first fight. It's about the first makeup. What do you think the next one's going to be?

First sex? Second sex.

It's not about your first.


Second date. Yeah, they haven't had their second date. I mean, would you even consider the Rialto their first date because they came full date?

Uh, yeah, true. Um, jumping ahead a little bit, the time where we see Dawson, uh, confront Pacey about like, what's going on. Um, Pacey lists like, all these things of like, you're not really my friend. You don't know the answer to any.

Of these questions that are like, I have that clip. Do you want to hear it real quick? Yeah. I thought it was like, I hope we get the answers to these questions. Yes, the fact that they're bringing it up, but let's take a listen. Okay. You know everything about me. Uh, you know how I got the scar on my cheek or the real reason my father hates me or why I ride the fine line between insecurity and supreme self confidence. Because correct me if I'm wrong, Dawson, um, you don't know the answer to any of those questions. In fact, I bet you don't even know when I was born. You want to know how I got these scars? The only thing I could think of.

That almost like, a little bit gave me chills.

Totally. Yeah. It's just like thinking of the Joker.

It's interesting because we don't know any of that about Pacey either. And we've been like, wanting to know more about him. So it's like he's dangling it in front of us, like, give us more.

Please, daddy, we want more. Yeah. Poor Pacey. Because, uh I feel you, Stella. It was powerful to hear him finally say that kind of stuff because I bet he's been harboring those feelings for so long, uh, and finally he's recognizing them that he's just been second fiddle to Dawson this whole time. And we all want to do that to those people who just take our friendships for granted, right? So it's like, fuck yes. Pace, finally.

And I think Cody, you were saying earlier, I can't remember if that was earlier today when you talk about, um, we don't have any evidence of the friendship, where, um, Pacey is like this quote unquote sidekick and yeah, we don't have any evidence of this friendship and this kind of addresses that. Yeah, maybe they actually aren't best friends. This is where, uh, Jen says, abby, you're on Sister Friend where they're having fun.


Yeah, Jen's looking super cute in that dress.


I love that dress.

I mean, I know that they're young, they're kids, they're 15 or 16 or whatever, but how are they this drunk off of half a bottle of champagne? Not even half.

They've split.

Yeah, right. Speaking as an alcoholic, uh, the first thing that I noticed is like, oh, they've only drink about like a fifth of that bottle. Why are they so drunk? And then she says like three what is it? It takes three glasses for her to be as wild and crazy as she is? You didn't drink three glasses. If she also drank three glasses, that bottle would be halfway.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, in this interaction we kind of see Abby stand up for Jen like when she shoves Dawson and it's like, nice work, Romeo. Um, and there's like this moment where Jen looks so embarrassed and Abby looks like, hurt for her so I thought I don't know. Yeah, it was confusing though, because Abby knows that Dawson and I mean, I assume Abby knows that Dawson and Joy are together so why is she, like, pushing him for telling Jen to stop? It was a.

Strange one of those things that only happens in TV, right? Best intentions, worst outcome possible. Well, I think it's time for us to go pee all over the place again. We're going to go back. Same spot. What I had said is that we the creek freaks and you the creek freaks. We're all gonna go pee all over the place during this commercial break. I love you. Bye. And we're back. Finally, Dawson enjoy lock eyes amongst the party crowd in the rain and slow motion walk toward each other to embrace for how long it took, nobody knows. They find a secluded area where Dawson admits to being an all around dick for forgetting Casey's birthday and reading her diary. Joey tells him the truth that she was just lashing out in her diary, reacting for having felt being friend zoned in the past and confirms that she adores him and his passions. Being his biggest fan, he admits to loving not knowing everything about her because she amazes him every day. And then they make uh, out eventually leading to Dawson later asking if she'll be good to walk home alone because he needs to talk to Pacey. Watching all of this while hurling, jen admits to Abby that she's still in love with Dawson and wants him back. Abby promises to help Jen on this quest, although puzzled as to why Jen even wants him in the first place. When Jen is home alone later, she stares in a mirror in disgust, possibly wondering the same thing. Meanwhile, while Pacey sulks it by his lonesome, andy shows up with a birthday present admitting it's a regift from an old Christmas present meant for her brother. It ends up being a magic eight ball and after Pacey asks for some predictions, andy drops it into the water on her turn. Pacey laments about being directionless but Andy reaffirms that it's okay to not have a clue. After a moment of consideration, Pacey tells her that they're both deep people. Later, as Dawson helps Pacey clean up after the party, Pacey forgives him and tells him he'll miss what their friendship had been before he and Joy began dating and Dawson affirms that they'll be best friends no matter what. As they jump into Dawson's boat to go home. Dawson suggests over ADR that they should go to Maine right then and there before finally wishing him a happy birthday. And across town, in the almost forgotten B plot, mitch brings up the idea of having an open marriage to Gail who doesn't know how to respond.

I, ah, feel like going into recording today. I liked this episode a lot more and the more we talk about I'm like, maybe I don't like it as.

Much as I thought I did. Am I too cynical for this podcast? I feel like everyone at the beginning was just like, yeah, this is a pretty good one. And then I said I didn't like it as much as everyone else and I could see everyone's faces droop. My apologies. No, I think I mean, it's one of those things that I liked it in theory, but the more that I examined it, the more I realized that the reason I like it is really because of the proximity to my own personal life. Having gone through this whole violation of trust type thing, having it feel personal to me makes it feel like a good episode. But then when we talk about it, I'm like, uh, okay, actually there's a lot of weird shit in here that doesn't quite make sense. And this act really, I think, summarizes that well because it feels like a return to season one where they're just like, yeah, what are we going to do now? Um, uh, she forgives him. Yes, she forgives him. And not only that, we're reminded once again that Dawson is a perfect boy. Yes. This show can't go an episode without a character reminding us that Dawson is a special, perfect, beautiful boy.

Yes. Joey says, you're the most extraordinarily talented person I've ever met.

Capeside is small. Yes, that's true. Yeah. I personally got very frustrated and upset when Joey says, though I don't owe you an explanation. And then she proceeds to give an explanation and most of her explanation is almost like self flagellating. It's almost like it's my fault that I have these feelings. It just feels like this show took a step. It feels like this episode was written in season one and they were like, OOH, let's um, just throw this one in there. I think we can revisit this plot maybe. Yeah.

I do love that Joey said it was wrong of you to go inside my head and take my thoughts and feelings without my consent. Yes, that's a good lesson. Yes. Yeah. I feel like there were multiple times where Joey was very eloquent with, um, being honest and direct with Dawson. Mhm, I appreciated that.

Speaking of being honest, Mitch and Gail and Mitch basically just being like, m, I want an open marriage, we've got.

To open this thing up. It's so weird to me. Like one that Gail keeps trying to seduce him but clearly that's not working. Yeah, what's the phrase? Like, if you keep doing it over and over again and expect different results. Uh come on, gail yeah, so that peeved me. And then I find it really hard to believe that Mitch is like, for some reason, it just puts a little switch, like, oh, yeah, this is the answer. Open marriage.

Uh, it's so confusing. I don't understand the logic here, and I don't know that necessarily we're supposed to, but I get that hurt. People are looking for an answer and maybe whatever, but it just feels very reactionary for Mitch to go have this one conversation. And now he's like, yeah, um, so let's open up our marriage. Yeah, let's go ahead and do this. Well, I mean, we've talked about it. They're kind of defined as, uh, they're not very emotionally intelligent, and they're very shallow people. And be that. Are they just shallowly written as characters, or is this actually who they are? And I think it is actually who they are. The fact that he talks to one person and just goes, well, I guess that's what I have to do, instead of doing any kind of other research. I don't know what that would even look like. And same thing with Gail just being like, well, I had that conversation with Graham's and says you should do whatever it takes to keep a wait. What?

No, just that, like, funny. I just hope there's more later. It's just that and then they have an open marriage or next few episodes. Are we going to see them talking that out more? I don't know. It's hard to tell.

I was happy about the continuity that Mitch is still reading Harry Potter.

Yes, I was going to say that, too.

I now get it out of my head that that's what he's reading. Yeah. I just love the idea of him just being like, gail holy shit. Can I tell you about quitting? And also, uh, when he wears those glasses, I just cannot get it out of my head that, um, it looks like, uh, Terry Hatcher and Dean Kane and, uh, Lois, uh, and Clark the Adventures of Superman. Because he just looks like Clark in yeah, he really does. I mentioned the music earlier, uh, in our episode here. And this scene, which we're talking about right now, mitch talking to Gail. Um, this scene has some of this strange music that I that I love. Listen to this. Wait, you don't think that's a skeleton playing the bones? That might be a skeleton playing some bones. I love it, though. It's so, like, mystical and intriguing. I feel like we're walking into, like, an alchemist laboratory, and I can see a bubbling cauldron and a little frog go ribbot. Like Harry Potter. Shit. Yeah, it's funny that the music has transitioned away from the Melodrama esque kind of stuff of Twin Peaks. And now we're going to this weird magic. Uh, how about the sequence where they, uh, Dawson and Joey find each other on the pier.

Oh, my gosh.

Very cinematic. But it goes on for way too long.

Way too long. Also, Joey is completely dry. Like, completely until they're sitting next to each other. And then she's.

Sopping well, it's because while it looks slow motion to us as they're slowly walking to each other, actually, that was real time. And, uh, they just slowly got soaked because they were just, like, stutterstepping in slow motion.

Yeah. I just want to know, was this supposed to be, like, epic at the time? If you're watching this and it was like, oh, this is so they found each other. It's so cheesy. It's like they don't even have a big smooch. It's like they just, like, kind of hug. Yeah, it's like a slightly embraced, weird half hug.

It makes me think of the new Netflix movie that came out. You people with Jonah Hill. Yes. Um, in which they have a CGI. Uh, I heard about that.


And it is because there's some, um, conjecture that maybe the stars didn't have as much chemistry as the movie required, so they had to CGI this kiss. And that's kind of how I felt about this scene here where I was like, wow, so they really don't have chemistry here because this is an epic it's like we're talking about it's a big epic scene. The Notebook, he picks her up and they kiss in the rain. And then in Dawson's Creek, they kind of, like, touch each other's cheek and they're like, uh, it's very odd. I'm trying to, like, devil's advocate here. It's like, are they trying to say that their relationship is so strong that they don't need the love language of touch for them to reconnect? It's just like them being in each other's presence means that everything is okay and that's all they need? That's supposed to be, like, more I don't know. Then it makes me think, like, is this like some family values bullshit? They're trying to be like, See, kids, you don't have to make out.

Uh, that is because yeah, but then they're making out, like, forever later.

That's true. Never mind. I don't know. I got to kids, you don't have to open up your relationships to solve your problems. All you have to do is stand next to each other in the rain and just kind of auggle you alluded to it in your act summary. Cody but I love that after they kind of make up and they talk about it, he's like, So you're good getting yourself home, right? Can I buy you an Uber? We've talked about this so much more of this. It makes sense for this to be like, a show about someone coming out and you're actually gay and what that means. And it really felt like this could have been that. Because when Pacey and Dawson are talking, um, they're like, are we having a moment but of course, it's that 90s bro thing of like, yeah, let's go play Laser Tech. Fuck having an emotional conversation, uh, with one of your friends. Um, instead, let's just brow out and go to Maine, whatever that is.

Um, you saying an Uber made me think of what if they had a boat Uber service?

That would be super cool. We're going to cut this out of the episode because that is a million, billion, trillion dollar idea. What's that city? Is it in, uh, Italy. That is all. Canal? Venice. Yes. Thank you.

I guess they kind of have that.

There because there's the man with a straw hat and the mustache who paddles for you. Maybe we can just bring them here.

M so over to Jen and Abby. M. Um, another thing I'm not loving so far this season was, um, so in the previous season, we see Jen and Joey have this friendship that's blooming. And this just feels really shitty. Like, Jen being like, well, they're not going to have sex because Dawson sees her as a sister and just felt like trash talking made me sad for Joey.

Yeah, I mean, I get it. On the one hand, she stole my man, but on the other hand, um, the boy's mine. That boy is mine. But on the other hand, you're right. They kind of went through some shared shit and it felt like they were forging a relationship. And to sit idly by I know she's hammered drunk, but to sit idly by while Abby's, like she's white trash or whatever, is just kind of like, yeah, come on. Can't we, uh, say something or have a I don't know.

Yeah, that was disappointing. I don't know. I feel like Jen is acting like so surprised is the right word about this whole relationship. But it's like you saw this whole thing build up. You knew what was going to happen. And now she's saying she is in love with Dawson and wants him back.

And you had your relationship, which I think we can all be like, was clearly not super great. I mean, uh, nobody's first relationship, I guess, is, but you guys broke up for a reason. It's like she's forgetting. But that also feels very relatable to a teen. Teens want what they can't have, right? And she made a choice. And now that the option is off the table, it's easy for her to maybe obsess over it. But it's very I don't know, I just find it a little bit strange that the most impactful thing that we've ever seen happen to Jen in her character's trajectory, which is the death of her grandfather. It's gone. We have already forgotten about it. I know that's like, potentially why she is acting this way, but it's kind of like the show is already trying.

To be like, yeah, no one's checking her friend, like Pacey or Dawson or Joe. No one's like, hey, how are you? Are you doing? Okay?

Yes. The only reference we got was Graham saying Mr. Ryan.

I mean, even Graham's has forgotten about it. Uh, too.

She's like.

Singing everything's.



Did you have something to say?



Another, um, thing. You look like you were going to a second ago. I, um, don't know if anyone else noticed this, but throughout the episode Jen was doing this really weird thing with her teeth and lips where she kept being like a little, like biting lip.

Yeah, too much. I think she got a note from the studio or somebody gave some notes while they were filming to make it.

More provocative or I don't know because.

I initially noticed it when Abby pulls out the bottle of imported bubbly and Jen is like, she does the direction of my devil. Exactly. It felt like they did the first take and she probably had her natural reaction and then they're like, um, no, be more like you're nervous and excited. And she's like, okay, um, I will have an open mouth and go, hey, yeah, let's do that. But again, bite your lip a little. It's like her go to move for something being salacious mouth. Ah, movement. Yeah, well, that's what I'm always biting my lip at people and chewing on it and in conversations, in work meetings. I'm like, I don't know. I think the most realistic thing about this entire episode, though, was within the sequence of Jen and Abby puking and talking about all this shit. Uh, Jen does admit like, I'm in love with Dawson. And Abby just goes, god, why.

I love that line.

God why? That's when, uh, Abigail, as she's now known, won, uh, me back. I was like, oh yeah, she's great. The delivery on that was perfect. So Abby says in that kind of time that she's going to get them back together.

Yeah. She's going to help Jen get Dawson back. Yeah, I think it kind of solidifies. Like, okay, these two are like two peas in a pod now. Yeah. They're going to get up to no good.

They're going to tear the town up.

Yeah. And then we see that shot of Jen looking at herself in the mirror and yeah, I'm curious what you guys thought about that. Yeah, I think I read it as she's kind of getting honest with herself and realizing that she's just sad. Mhm. Why is she doing all this? Does she really love Dawson? Like what? You know, uh, that's, that was my read on that.


You know, it's her sad reflection. She's seeing herself so well.

Uh, I think reflections are really big in this entire episode because not only do we get Jen, uh, looking in the mirror, uh, I think it's almost right after that there's. The sequence with Andy and Pacey and the way that that shot ends is that the camera tilts down to the water and we see the reflection there and then that blends into a shot of Dawson and Joey's reflection in the water. Then the camera tilting up to see them. And I mean, historically, if you're looking at self reflection yeah, symbolism in cinematography, it's self reflection, but it's also like your dual identities, like the two different people that you can be. Obviously we see that with Jen looking in the mirror and she's obviously like, who am I? Like, I've become this other person. Clones. Um, clones. There we go. But I've become this other person to get Dawson back. And she doesn't know who her true identity is, uh, because either version of them is not working to get Dawson. But then also, it makes me wonder about how Pacey's identity crisis with the last episode and this one too, it's who am I, really? The further he goes away from himself, I mean, that's the further he loses himself. And whereas Andy is saying, you need to be who you truly are, he doesn't even know who that is. Whereas this is where it gets a little muddled. But I don't really know what that means for Dawson and Joey. Are they kind of playing into their own fatalism of what they believe? Like, oh, this was the natural trajectory of a relationship? At least Joey has had a crush on Dawson and Dawson. It took a really long time for him to get to that point, too, to realize that. But is Dawson only viewing the relationship as something that is cinematic? Is he like, oh, well, this just makes sense because I already know everything about you, so of course we're in love. Does he actually believe that? I don't know. Uh, I'm grasping at straws here. Just trying to read into the symbolism of what the cinematography good cinematography should be adding a layer to the storytelling. So those other things make sense to me. Uh, Dawson and Joey not so much. I don't really know. We'll see.

Yeah, she definitely seems sad. I was kind of wondering if she was feeling any regret about her actions over the course of the evening because it just seems so, um, not her to we've never seen her act like this. Um, so I wonder if she's feeling any kind of shame. Totally.

Um, yeah, I could read that in her performance that she's like, she moved here for a reason. To get away from that. Right. Ostensibly was to get away from that kind of lifestyle. Maybe she thought, oh, let's try something to make me feel better. But then she's still left with those same feelings at the end of it. That's got to make it feel so much worse. Um, so poor Jen. She is in such a dark place right now with, like, I don't think the best network around her. Right. Like, Abby is there. That's not a good influence. And then there's.

Grams. Um, I know we talked briefly about the pacing. Andy scene with the eight ball. But I really like just the moment where Andy says, maybe you're the guy, that he's still figuring himself out. Um, just thought that was like a really sweet, genuine moment. Yeah. I love the use of the eight ball in this scene. Um, especially when Andy has it, she loses her grip. And I thought it was a great example of show don't tell because you really can't predict anything. And she gave it to Pacey, but he can't predict what's going to happen to him.

I like that morality tale stuff. This is where I think, oh, this is a really strong, uh, message for kids that are watching is like, it's okay to not know who you want to be and who you are. Because I know I remember being 15 years old and being so scared of college and the idea of, like, I have to decide who I'm supposed to be in a couple of years. That's so scary. And obviously, I did not know who I was in high school. I was a, uh, class clown and a ding dong. Uh, still kind of am, though. But, uh, I just love that, uh, we get to live through Pacey and being like, it's okay to not know who you are and it's okay, uh, to just learn as you go because that's what life is. Yeah.

And I think James, you were saying earlier, I can't remember what you said something about Pacey, like, feeling the most, um, authentic. Yeah. And it's like, in this moment, it's like, yeah, that's the most relatable thing I think of. Just, like, not knowing who you are, feeling like no one cares about you.

Yeah. I think this episode what I like about this episode I know we're not in ratings here, but what I like about this episode is that we're kind of seeing the same problem being worked from multiple different angles and multiple different viewpoints. Because at the core of it, like, we've already talked about everybody's at a crossroads in their relationship and everybody's kind of talking about the same thing from different angles. Right. They're all talking about honesty. Right. If we go back to Mitch and Cole, it's about honesty. You have to open up your relationship to get honesty, to have truth to be true for who you are. And Dawson and Joey, dawson is, uh, angry about Joey not being truthful with him, about how she really feels. And then with Pacey and Andy, andy is giving him the speech of basically, you need to be true to yourself. It's the only way that you're really going to be happy. And it's interesting, in my opinion, that the one right answer here is in the one relationship that isn't actually a relationship. They're just friends. There's no stakes, there's nobody's getting anything out of this outside of just the platonic friendship and maybe the potential. Um, but it's interesting that the best example, the best story, the best. Summary, the best lesson is coming from the class clown who everybody hates and the new girl who is a country club classist person.

It's interesting too, because they're two people that barely know each other the least out of anyone and they're the most.

Honest to each other. And I think to your point, Mal, about the magic eight ball getting lost, it's interesting that they don't need an artifice to talk to each other and get to know each other. They're willing to just have a conversation. Unlike Dawson who thinks you don't need to have a conversation, I know everything there is to know about you because I'm so smart. And Mitch who just wants to fuck somebody else. I think, yeah, that's going to solve it. Well, I think that brings us, uh, to the end of the episode, which brings us to our ratings and recommendations. Who would like to go first?

Although okay, I'm going to give it a 3.5. Um, I think I would have gone for a four if it wasn't for Dawson's lack of development. Um, but I'm happy with the trajectory that Pacey is on and his development with Andy, um, feeling sad for Jen. Still though, that we just end with her wanting Dawson back and I hate to think that that's going to continue for a little bit. Um, but I'm also excited, uh, for what's in store for Jack's character. It's fun to see some new characters.

So yeah, 3.5. I have also given this a 3.5. It's honestly like a fine episode. Ah, it's not great, but not terrible by any means. Uh, as I had said before, I'm pleasantly surprised that this diary reading situation was wrapped up this episode, as rushed as it was. I'm just glad we're not going to have to follow that for four or five, six episodes like we would have done in season one. Um, but as Mal said, I do not care for the Dawson storyline. It's not that interesting. I love what we're getting with Pacey. Even mentioned Gail seems kind of interesting and, uh, while it is upsetting that Jen's current trajectory right now is Dawson related, I am kind of excited to see Michelle Williams is given new material. This is like something new for her to work with and I like the idea of her kind of becoming a bad girl. I don't really know if that is what this is supposed to mean but, um, at least it's better than her just crying all the time. Like, I'd rather see her cause a tornado instead of just weeping. So, um, as much as it sucks, the reasoning why we're getting a new performance out of, uh, an extreme talent, uh, that, that reason kind of sucks. Like, it could be cool, could be interesting, I don't know.

I'm going to give this one a four. Initially I had thought it would be a little bit higher but, um, yeah, like I said, after talking through it. I feel not as great about it. But um, I did love the new characters. I loved some of the references back to season one. Um, I liked the honesty and development of some relationships between pacing Andy and Joey and Jack. Um, yeah, like I said, it made me really excited for what's to come. I just feel like this is like a launching off point for a lot of things to happen, a lot of new stories, um, and conflicts.

Yeah. Sensing a theme, um, I'm going to give this episode a 3.63. Um, I initially was thinking that I was going to give this higher, but as I've talked about previously, I use a highly scientific super M mathematical multivariable rating calculator. And that's just what it says. So the numbers don't lie. Just like my hips. And uh, that's just the way it is. So, 3.63. Recommendation time. I'll go first since I went last. So this week I am going to give a recommendation with a little bit of a twist. It's going to be something maybe a little bit blasphemous. I'm sorry, please, nobody write me angry emails. But I'm going to recommend a different television show and it's not Dawson's Creek related at all. Did King Gizzard start a TV show? Man, I wish. The, um, show is called The Traders and it is on Peacock. You can go watch it now. The full season is available. They just released the reunion show. Um, but I'll give you a quick little summary. It's hosted by Alan Cumming and it takes 20 real people, places them in a castle in Scotland, and every episode they are competing in different types of challenges to try to earn up to $250,000. The challenges are kind of interesting. Like, they have to, um, solve a puzzle while being buried under the, like 6ft underground in dirt. They, um, have to kind of do like escape room type stuff and they also have to do physical challenges. It's really, really interesting. But the twist of it all is that among the 20 people, three of these people are traders. They are trying to manipulate everybody else, uh, vote out the strong people, um, and make it to the end. Because if they make it to the end, they win all the money every night. They get to kill they're, uh, not really killing anybody, but they get to kill one player, um, to weaken out the faithful. And then the faithful vote on who they think might be a traitor. The catch is, of course, with only three and 20, their odds are very low. So they more often are voting out people who are on their side rather than people who are actually traders. So it's a really interesting show. It's really fun. I think it's, uh, great for people who are fans of the reality challenge shows. Um, the kind of social manipulation is really interesting and it really puts that kind of on display. It's like Big Brother or Survivor, but more direct with the way it deals with manipulation. And it's interesting because it's really talking mostly about using loyalty against or for you. And loyalty, ironically enough, is also the name of one of my very favorite King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard song, the 2017 album Polygon Dwanoland, in which they talk about the internal monologue of an individual who believes that they are a god dealing with an insurrection of people rejecting their will. So I think you should actually check that out instead. Bam. Bam. Uh, I didn't ask you this when you were telling me about that show initially, but how's Alan coming as a host? I love him. Yeah, he's interesting.

Watch it for his fashion.

His fashion is pretty amazing. I think he is clearly having a really fun time and it's hard not to enjoy it from that side of things. But as a we've watched a lot of reality shows together and separately. The host can do a lot for a show. And sometimes he annoys the fuck out of me, if I'm being, uh, completely honest. Because he's enjoying his role a little too much. That's fair, because he is a very large personality. Yes. Which is great. They're giving him license to be as big as he wants. And hey, you know what? Fucking do it.

But his outfits are insane.

Yeah, they're amazing. Every time I think about Alan Cumming, I think of, uh, his performance in the Kubrick movie Eyes Wide Shut. He's only in that movie for maybe five minutes. But when I think of him in that movie, it's like so big. And it's like anything that he's in, I feel like he's always doing that.

Yeah. I'll go. Yay. My turn. Um, I'm going to recommend a podcast called Bone Valley.


Uh, uh, it is a true crime podcast about a murder that took place in 1987 of this 18 year old female named Michelle Schofield. Um, she was recently married, uh, to Leo Schofield. He was accused of the murder. He's been behind bars since. Um, he claims his innocence and it's the story of him being wrongfully accused. It's fucking heartbreaking. And, uh, I have, I think, one or two episodes left and I've been listening to it for a while. It's just like taking me a while to get through because it just makes me so mad. Um, but it's really good. It's really good. It's hosted by a man named Gilbert King. I had never heard of him before, but he does a great job. Highly recommend.

Uh, so the day before this recording, uh, was the 20th anniversary of this record, which is why it's my recommendation. And that record is the Magnolia Electric Cove from the Jason Molina project. Songs Ohio, anyone? Okay, uh, for those not in the know, it's often hailed as one of those American indie essentials, like neutral milk, hotels in the airplane, over the Sea or the microphones, the Globe Part Two. And while those latter albums were very formative to me as like a high schooler, uh, I didn't come to Magnolia, uh, Electrico until this past year. And it's one of those kinds of records where within the first minute, you just know it's something extraordinarily special. I described the sound of it as like, very dark Americana. It's very rooted in roots music, in country music, but it's very much like a sound of its own, too. Um, Molina's writing is extremely poetic and his delivery is so emotionally charged. It's somehow, like, beautifully fragile. Um, I can't get through a full listen without choking up. It's really, really beautiful. And Molina died in 2013. So I'm pretty depressed that I will never see any of his work live. The uh record is produced by my favorite album producer Steve Albini, who did Nirvana's in Utero Surfer Rosa from Pixies Breeders Title, Tk, PG, Harvey's Rid of Me, et cetera, et cetera. So it has that very warm and inviting sound that actually sounds like you're in the room while the band is playing live. Um, yeah, if you're like a fan of Sad Core, uh, Low or Elliot Smith or like, Galaxy 500, you should definitely check this album out. Favorites, um, are the opener Farewell Transmission, um, which is just like an incredible banger. And, uh, reading about the making of this record. Uh, Molina was with I don't know how true this is. I've only read it on the Internet. But Molina was with a bunch of studio musicians, and they'd only gone over the song, like, a few times, and they recorded the entire track. The one that ended up on the record live. And I guess even during it, they kind of recognized like, oh, holy shit, this is the one. And, uh, I guess Albini ran and opened a door to change the acoustics in the middle of the sound. And it really sounds like it's always building up to something. Um, that's cool. It's extraordinary. So please, if you have not checked that album out and you like, uh, sad cowboy shit, uh, the Magnolia Electrico from Songs, Ohio is for you. Get into it.

My turn. Um, I am going to recommend a live feed on YouTube of a bald eagle nest called Big Bear bald Eagle Live Nest cam hosted by friends of Big Bear Valley. I don't know if anyone has heard about this. It's been a little bit on the news in Bird News Bird. Um, but this particular camera is positioned at a nest, ah, 145ft, up in a pine tree where two eagles, Jackie and Shadow, they've been named, um, have been incubating two eggs for for over 40 days and through the recent unusually harsh snowstorm that's happening in California. Um, have you seen this? No. Okay. Um, so the camera goes in and out of being available because of the weather. But, um, at this point, the eagle experts are saying that they most likely won't hatch, um, this time around, but they will continue to incubate for a little while longer. Um, and it's just super interesting to watch them do this together. I've never seen anything like it. Um, yeah, and apparently so apparently jackie and shadow have been active at this nest, laying and incubating eggs since 2019. So it's been a while. I think some have hatched, some haven't. So it's kind of been something that people go back to when they're active. And so, yeah, it's very cool.

Has this live feed been going on since then?

I believe so. That's amazing. Yes. Uh, actually, I think they have several live feeds up, and they'll move them around because there have been other eagles hatching in the area. Um, also, apparently, their feathers are waterproof and very thick, so the snow doesn't negatively affect them, even though it seems like they get buried in this snow on these nests, but it's actually kind of almost protective for them. So it's very intriguing. Well, next time on freaks and creeks we'll be talking about episode three, alternative lifestyle. A class assignment gives jen a chance to win back dawson as pacey learns the truth about andy's wealth.

She started crypto way before it was a thing. All right, well, on that note, it's time for us to leave. So thank you all so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to our show and join us as we continue to set sail through dawson's creek one episode at a time. If you want more freaks content, please visit our website, and find us on instagram at freaksandcreekspod or you can go ahead and write to us at Until next time, bye bye. I love.