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Stories, experiences and advice about fatherhood.
This is an AI-generated transcript, so consider it an approximation of the audio:
Michael Williams (00:04.142)
Welcome to DadPod. I'm Mike. And I'm Luke. We're friends here in Madison, and we both have kids. And at least for us, becoming a dad has been transformational. We talk to all sorts of dads in all sorts of situations to learn from their unique challenges, lessons, and evolutions. The goal is simple. Learn from each other to become better dads. If you dig it,
Please find us on Apple or Spotify and click follow. That single click helps put us in front of more dads, which Luke would really appreciate.
Today's episode, we talk with TC. We covered what it's like to balance fatherhood and working at a startup, the idea of normalizing failure as a way to build confidence in our kids. And the big one for me was his story of living through multiple miscarriages in partnership with his wife. We go pretty hard into his experience through the miscarriages and it's real, it's raw, it's intense, and there's a lot of wisdom.
If your life circumstances are such that you are not ready to hear us go into this, you should skip this one and perhaps come back to it later. Now let's get onto the show. TC, welcome to DadPod. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. That was quite the introduction. You betcha. How would you describe your overall dad strategy? What are the, you know, the top three to five priorities you think about?
when you think about how to be a dad to your two kids. Yeah. So this is, I think it's a great question. And I think there's some, some context to share before I start rambling about it, but you know, my kids are, are, I've got packs who's five and Theo who's one and anybody who's just gotten out of the three and four year age range knows that
Michael Williams (02:05.07)
Whatever strategy you may or may not have had is going to get punched in the mouth when they get to that age. So we're actually kind of just on the other side of that. And, and I'm just getting back to the point of being like, Hey, like I may actually be able to be strategic about the way that I, I raised tax. I mean, three and four were really hard. Like no, no question about it.
Michael Williams (02:30.958)
When it comes to strategy, I think, you know, I tend to think a little bit more just in, in terms of values and.
What is it that I'm hoping that my kids get from me and what is it that they can get from me?
Michael Williams (02:52.878)
What is it that they don't have themselves already? Because I actually think they have a ton themselves already. And that's been one of my, my biggest observations as becoming a dad is, I mean, they've got everything. I mean, you know, basically all they have is just less experience with the world than adults and everything else is there. So with that in mind, it kind of starts to come down to what are those experiences then that are going to
shape the way that they approach the world, shape the way that they view the world, shape the safety that they feel or their willingness to take risks or those types of things. So talking a little bit about values, especially for Pax as he's starting to really interact with the world and
in new ways and in ways where it's not just him doing stuff and then not really caring what happens, right? Like he's actually starting to, he's developed empathy and he's, he can tell that there are consequences to the actions that he's taken.
I want him to be independent. So I want him to develop a sense of, I am enough and I am capable and I'm going to be able to sort of like take on the challenges that are, are put in front of me. And that doesn't mean that you can't lean on people or that he shouldn't lean on people for help.
that's part of being independent is knowing how to ask for help and when to ask for help. But I really want him to, to feel like develop a sense of confidence as he approaches the world.
Michael Williams (04:53.102)
So, you know, one of the things that I try to do with him as much as possible is let him lead, let him fail.
see, or have him see me see him fail so that he knows that I know that he failed and let him, him work through that. And I'm there for him. And if he asks for help, I will help him.
But it's, yeah, in a lot of ways it's just, okay, you can do this, Pax. You have the tools. You've been through similar situations before. What's that problem solving that you're gonna sort of tap into to work through whatever challenges that you're working on?
So.
That's thing number one and I think that, you know, largely that comes from just that's a value that I hold for myself and my parents gave to me. And so that's, and it's one that it feels worthy to, or worth passing on.
Michael Williams (06:06.51)
There is, I think in our household, there is a, there is a real emphasis on joy and fun, which is so, so again, kind of a value, right? It's not a strategy, but it is a value.
Michael Williams (06:29.358)
more of like an active, like an active value in the sense of, you know, the independence is something that I want to instill in him and the, and the joy and the fun is something that I want to have be happening with and around him. And so it really involves all of us. And so that shows up just in like the way that we decide to spend our time and the trips that we decide to take and
And it is, it is constantly in the back of my head in terms of how I respond to difficult situations with him. And has really actually recently started shaping the way that I deal with some of the more difficult moments with him where.
He'll present himself as injured or hurt or something went wrong and he's really upset about it. And typical like comfort just doesn't seem to resonate with him for whatever reason. But if I, if he comes to me and he says that his ankle hurts, and then I tell him that I'm going to go get a new one from the car and just, just wait a minute and I'll come back and I'll cut off this one and then I'll put the new one on. It's like he snaps out of it right away.
And so, you know, that's, that's great because it just plays into this, this value of joy that we have and just teasing each other and being playful with each other, which is, I think just really important. And a lot of that comes from Alison, I think like her family was a lot like that growing up more than more so than mine. And, and I just have been just captivated by it because it's just such a fun way to operate.
Michael Williams (08:14.062)
So let's see, those are a couple. There are likely others. I'm trying to give myself a second to let them come here. Could you talk for a moment on the first one that you mentioned, you said something that was interesting, which is the child packs starting to notice results from his actions, starting to empathize. And I interpret that as
more of a two -way street between the world and himself. How has that affected the way that you parent him and the types of, you know, whether it's the end and just sort of how the two of you go, go through the world together. So you need to talk about that a little bit more. Yeah. So the way that I experienced that was when he was, you know, really in that three -year -old range.
You know, I had basically no experience with three -year -olds before this, no siblings, no young cousins that I interacted with or anything like that. So this was, this was a first for me. And one of the interesting things that I found about Pax as a three -year -old was that he seems like he's like there, like he can talk, he can interact with you. He can ask for things he can do quite a, quite a lot.
You know, and of course I'm, I'm comparing it to him as a two year old, right? So he's getting, he can do way more than he could do as a two year old at the time. And so my like default way that I interacted with him started shifting more towards I'm going to just treat you like any other human. And there were actually some really good things about that, but there were also some things that just did not work for him at that age. And I don't know how much of this is all three year olds versus just packs, but you know,
consequences for when he was doing something that we said was not okay or whatever it was, you know, any kind of explanation or, you know, this is why you don't do that. Or like, look, look, this is, these are the sort of sequence of events that happened because you chose to do this or whatever it is. Just like, it's like there was nothing there. Like that didn't resonate with him at all. And that was super hard for me because that's what I.
Michael Williams (10:39.502)
That really played into my like value of independence and you can solve these problems and like, right? Like how do you, how do you work through challenges in the world? You have to see what happens and you have to be able to learn from the mistakes and, and all this stuff. And he just wasn't there. Right. And so I probably should have been approaching those in a different way. I should have been much more patient with myself probably. And I probably should have been much more okay.
just working on enforcing the rules and not necessarily caring so much about explaining them or getting him to understand the, you know, the why, the deep why behind the rules, because he was not interested in that. He just wasn't now he is, or at least he's, he's really starting to understand that there's the things that happen to him in the world are in part because of the way that he engages with the world, right? It's a, it, like you said, it's a two -way.
two way street, it's the way you show up impacts the way other people show up for you to some extent. And he's starting to be interested in that. And so, you know, you talked about like, how has that changed? And it's like, for me, it's like, it's a big relief because now there, now we can start to have some more of those conversations and we can, you know, like just the other night, like laying in bed with him and talking through a tough situation that, that he had had that day.
And being like, you know, here's what I saw and here's kind of what happened. You know, you did this and then, you know, I saw that your friends kind of didn't want to engage with you as much anymore. Did you notice that? And he was like, you know what? I did. So it's early and it's like just the first kind of signs of that, but that's it. For me, it's been, it's been a relief to have him kind of get to that point. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause my, so my daughter's about to turn two.
I also have basically no experience with, you know, when Mike, I mean, I had a ton of cousins, but when they were little, like if they were being clowns, I just ran away. Like I was just one of the cousins. I had no responsibilities to it. So, but what I'm, I'm reading a book and they're sort of pitching this idea on basically engaging with a child of this age, like a caveman.
Michael Williams (13:05.71)
using really simple language, paying big attention to your non -verbal communication, which they pick up on much, potentially much more than your verbal. And I'm grappling with it because it feels performative about it. It's the same guy who wrote, happiest baby on the block, happiest toddler on the block. But the idea of really just focusing on setting the boundaries,
and not necessarily talking through the logic of it all, you know, which is like, that's the world where, that's where I'm existing on that, on that plane. And, and I see my friends also, particularly my, my male friends in this age range, like a lot of us are really struggling with like, how do you, how you interact with the, with the child, you know what I mean? And many of us don't have a lot of experience. I'll speak for myself, but
I'm, I don't have the answers, but it's, you know, it's interesting you mention of just, it's like, I don't, I don't need to go seven layers deep on like why that thing happened or why this thing is not, I'm not letting you do this. It's more of like, stay primitive basically.
Yeah. And I'm scared of the next stage where then you do have to explain seven layers, seven layers deep, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, it's super interesting because they, in that two and three year old, that's where they started asking that why question. And so there are some things that they want to go a million layers deep on and you're like, this is, there's no, there's no more layers. Like you've extended it and then it comes to like the rules and they're like, I don't care.
least in the moment, right? They were here. We've gotten to the Higgs boson. One thing you mentioned
Michael Williams (14:58.894)
Was for your value of independence, you wanted to make sure Pax saw you watching him try and fail. And I'm, I'm interested with an example or how you approach that. Cause I, I can, again, speaking for myself, I know I struggle with that. Like where to, where to let things play out, where to step in. Yeah.
So I, you know, I can give an example, but just to go a little deeper on the, the philosophy that I, that is somewhere in me here about that. Like I, my expectation is that if he fails and he then sees that I watch him fail and then everything is fine, that that will actually normalize failure for him and make him less afraid of it. I was terrified of failing and to some extent still am.
Although I've gotten much more comfortable with it as an adult. And I tried to hide those failures as when I was a kid. And I don't want him to feel like he needs to hide those, those failures. I want him to, to see that most failures are really no big deal. And, and a lot of ways, you know, it's, it's often small things. So like, as an example, just yesterday, we're down here in the basement. He's playing with Legos and he's having a hard time.
finding the pieces that he wants and putting them together. And he got frustrated and basically broke the thing that he was, that he had been building. And, and again, this is no judgment on the way that anybody else does things. My reaction was to just sit there and wait and just, he knows I'm there and he can ask for help. And he did ask for help. But the first thing that he saw was just me.
Being there and kind of being like, it's okay. Like, yeah, you kind of messed that up. We can fix this. Like you can fix it or we can fix it together, whichever way you want to do it. So, you know, that's a small example, right? Cause like, I mean, that really doesn't matter in terms of, of anything longer term. And I'm sure there will be situations where it matters more where, and even, even as a five year old, there's situations where it can matter more in terms of safety in particular is kind of the main.
Michael Williams (17:23.566)
thing that I, I worry about, but anything that is outside the scope of you're going to hurt yourself or you're going to hurt somebody else. And it's good to work through fixing that problem and to like know that, Hey, you can mess up and you can fix these problems. And Hey, there's going to be some consequences and you might decide you don't want to, you don't want to feel those consequences again. And that's a great lesson to learn.
Michael Williams (17:49.678)
That's such a great example because I was immediately like, shit, how am I going to put this Lego thing back together? It's such a strong instinct to jump in and I have to fight it. Totally. But yeah, he... I think that's a really interesting, the idea of normalizing failure. Because I think back to my own childhood and you know, I got good grades in school and stuff and like you sort of
Like you're part of the good grade crowd then and you, you know, it's like, I was so scared of ruining my reputation around like being a, you know, like a smart kid that it made, now it made confronting failure like in a very unhealthy way for me for a long time of, you know, just was like failures unacceptable on any level. It's sort of like what I developed. I don't, you know, I'm not saying anyone did it to me.
That just, and I think the idea of proactively trying to support the engagement with failure, thinking about when it's, you know, I'm brainstorming like, how do you, when is failure good? How to think about failures that are one way doors versus two way doors and that, you know, some of those concepts of making it much more proactively making it much more part of your life and your, you know, the child's life.
Yeah. The one -way door and two -way door metaphor, I think is a great one. And that's where the safety comment comes from is that's really the only one -way door I can really think of for him as a five -year -old. Well, and even a lot of, you know, of course there's extreme safety, but even some of the safety stuff is, man, you get hurt, you learn fast. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm so cool with that big time. I need to do so much work.
on that myself, but getting hurt is great feedback. Yeah. It's, you don't forget getting hurt. Physically or emotionally, right? Yeah. Couple bad bike tricks struck me in the midsection and that ruined a budding bike career.
Michael Williams (20:17.806)
Yeah. I'm interested who labeled it. I'm interested who labeled it budding. Was anybody besides Mike?
This does make me think of one of the other big areas where I'd love to hear from you, which is life, you know, talking about risk, taking risk. What is that like is life as a startup employee and you were one of the very first employees at Redox, which is a startup we were both a part of. I'd love to hear what it was like for you as an early employee at that startup alongside starting.
family. Yeah. So I joined Redox in 2014 and so Pax was born in 2018. We lost our first pregnancy a year before that in 2017. So that was really when our minds had started shifting towards, hey, we're going to be a family or we're going to be more than more than else. And we were already a family. And when Pax was born, I took, you know,
some amount of time off. I think it was basically, he was born in early November and I took the rest of the year off from work. And during that time I spent, I spent a good amount of time just thinking about my own values and how I wanted to be in the world. And at the time I knew that I was not the same kind of joyful person that I had been at other times in my life. And I was
curious about that and trying to understand that. And so there was a real like, a real period of reflection and I did some writing and I did some reading and ended up writing down some, some like core principles of my life that I wanted to try to, to live by. And it was clear coming out of that time that I wanted to make some changes, some pretty big changes. And you know, one of them was the
Michael Williams (22:27.15)
the role that I was playing at Redox, I didn't want to do that role anymore. And it just worked out perfectly that there was somebody else who had covered for me, Clark, right? While I was out and he was crushing it. So everybody wanted him to do the role anyway. So it was an easy transition for me to step out of, but just really, really important because that role was
was, was taking too much of my time and my energy. And up until that point, I had been okay with that. And, and the early years of, of a startup are crazy and they just take a huge amount of energy. And I think in particular, the startup, you know, that we were a part of.
Lots of really amazing people, lots of really smart people, but very little startup experience. And I think that ended up weighing on all of us a lot more than maybe if you'd done it before or had people around a lot more people around who'd done it before. And so I was, I knew that like, I just couldn't continue like that. And I, I'm super glad that I got the opportunity to do that and, and great experience. But when PAX was born, I was like, I need to.
I need to get back to doing the part of my job that really brings me energy rather than the part that's, that's taking a huge amount of energy for me to try to just to show up really so that I have more time for packs and for Allison and can kind of find myself again. I succeeded, I guess, in stepping out of that role. And that was the first step, but it was really just the first step. And I remember having a conversation maybe around the time packs was one.
where Allison was talking to me and she was like, Hey, like you, you got rid of the energy drain, but you didn't refill your life with the things that give you energy. You just sort of stopped and your work life is better, but there's something else that you're not getting. And it's, you know, so you're still kind of showing up.
Michael Williams (24:45.838)
I don't know what the right word would be, but like kind of just showing up dry or showing up meh instead of like all in. I mean, anybody that knows me knows that there's a, there's a very like obvious all in TC. And it wasn't that. Yes. And that first year, I just, that first year as a dad was hard for me because it was nothing like.
what I expected and like, I sort of expected it to be nothing like I expected, but it was nothing like I expected in ways that I didn't even expect it to be nothing like I expected. And so, you know, it was, that was a good first step along the journey, but it was, it was, it was more that I needed to do. Deciding, like making the decision to, to step out of the role that I had been in at Redox.
was clearly the right choice, but it was not an easy decision to make because there was a lot of, there was some ego, I guess, caught up in it. I think there was also maybe even more so than ego. There was a fear of missing the opportunity to grow in that role to, because I had never experienced any, anything like the growth I had experienced while in that role.
So that's part of the reason why I was exhausted and I was like totally beat up. But it was, that was also part of the good part. It's like, I am learning just so much every day just by trying to do this job that I don't know how to do. And so that was hard. How did you weigh the change? How are you looking at your life in order to make a decision like that? Because most of the time the conclusion is, look, I just got to grind harder. Yeah.
The process that I went through involved a lot of thinking about my self as an 85 year old and what am I going to care about as an 85 year old? And, you know, I think that did a couple of things for me. Like one is it highlighted some things that just don't matter at all. Like, you know, titles and roles and
Michael Williams (27:03.758)
The other thing that I think it, it helped me do was appreciate the amount of time that there is between now and when I'm 80 or 85 or whatever it is. And I know that, you know, everybody says that it's going to go fast. And I, I know it's going to go fast because I can feel time going faster, you know, now than it did for me 10 years ago already. And I was able to look at how much I had grown over the course of
basically four years at Redox. And I was like, I could, I could take 10 years off and then do those and then do four years and then do four years and then do four years and then do four years. You know, I've got so many more four year spans left that, you know, in between now and then I'm not losing out on the opportunity to do that type of, of growth. And in fact, I can be more thoughtful about the way I want to do that type of growth and
in such a way that doesn't beat me down quite as much. So yeah, that was really the process for me. And it was a lot of just looking back, you know, pretending I'm 80 and looking back on my life and what is the relationship with my kids and my wife and how do I need to be able to show up in order to have that relationship with my kids and my wife? And, you know, I don't know the answer for real because I'm not 80 and I don't actually know anything, but you know, I can, I could at least
identify some ways that were not going to be particularly helpful and some things that needed to stop. So yeah, that was one of the times in my life where I have actually been intentionally strategic about the way that I sort of show up. That second question that your wife asked you or, you know, I think the way you framed it as a year in, you've kind of quote unquote, stop the bleeding, but we haven't locked back then to, you know, regrowth or new energy or whatever that is.
How did you respond to that? Like at that point, what did you do? Well, I think the first thing I probably said was, dang, I think you're right.
Michael Williams (29:11.566)
But he literally would say it exactly like that. There's no cuss words that were used. It was aw shucks. Yeah. Aw shucks. Alison's very wise. But the first thing was just to kind of recognize, yes, that that is true. Take a step back. Don't panic. And, and think about what that means and think about the things that actually matter or that bring me that energy. And from there I took.
A few kind of small steps over the course of the next year or so that just brought some of that stuff back into my life. Some of that was making sure that I was intentionally spending time with friends, people that aren't just Allison and my family, meaningful friend time. Some of that was just playing music. Some of that was.
Making sure that I was taking care of myself physically for me mostly just means making sure I run a few times a week. That's enough for me to feel not, not terrible physically. And then one of the things I did is I started helping out with the youth group at the church that Alice and I go to, because I, you know, that age group just is super fun for me. It's basically middle schoolers through high schoolers. And that wasn't a lot.
It was, you know, maybe, maybe one or two Sunday nights a week or one or two Sunday nights a month, but it was something right. And it started to, to go from there and then. And it kind of ended up doing more and just kind of find my way. Now I'm doing all kinds of things. It seems like at the, at the church, which is a whole other interesting topic. Right. Part of the reason that, I mean, that's fascinating because I think part of the, again, to, you know,
referencing one of the other responses you had, there's a very almost expected and normal path that so many dads take, which is to not find that space, to not, you know, I heard you, you know, music, family, physical health, community. So I'm just interested, besides like your mindset shift and just saying, I need to do this, how else did you like tangibly
Michael Williams (31:40.878)
pull that off. Like what had to change in your life? What had to change at work? What had to change in your agreements with Alison? So you could do that. Yeah. I mean, Alison was a big part of that because she was the one who pointed it out in the first place and she backed that up by not just supporting me in doing it, but encouraging me to go and find those things. And that means, Hey, I'm not going to be here on these nights. You've got
packs by yourself, which I mean, just side note, like it's kind of hilarious thinking about that now. Cause we like one kid seems so easy now, but anyway, at the time it was like, Whoa, you know,
So, so that was, you know, at least one of the very first things that needed to change. I did make some changes to my work schedule. I decided to be very intentional about being a nine to five employee. That was interesting because this is going back a little bit more to, you know, my relationship with Redox as, as an early.
employee at a startup, but my relationship with Redox had to change at that point. I was no longer willing to be the person who was always available to, you know, help with stuff. I was always available to help with stuff within some pretty clear boundaries, right? Nine to five. And so that right there just provided basically two hours more of space.
in my life, which was, which was huge. And some of that I filled up with stuff and some of that was just like, I have a little bit more time to like sit and talk with Alison in the morning. And I have a little bit more time to take a walk after work around the block or take packs and, and our dog Jules on a walk or whatever it was. So that was another, I mean, that, you know, it sounds kind of like a small thing, but when you think about like it's two hours every day. Forever. That really made a big difference.
Michael Williams (33:51.246)
My parents moved out to Fort Collins when Pax was born and that provided another avenue for me to do things with them that they were very eager to engage with just because I'm their only child. So, you know, meeting up with my mom to just talk about life or golfing with my dad or come to the main, main things. And there was just a lot more opportunity to do that.
with that extra space. So those are some of the, some of the things I really do think though, that just the encouragement and support from Alison was probably number one. And then the, the, the support from Redox in me saying, Hey, I'm not going to be that guy anymore. I got to be a different guy. You know? Yeah.
That was huge. Yeah. One of the things you mentioned previously was you and Allison lost a child. And, you know, so, and one of the things I wanted to ask you about is, is what is it like to go through what became multiple miscarriages and how did you and your partner get through that together? Yeah. It's a, it's going to be a hard thing to put into words, but I'll
Do my best. We lost our first pregnancy at probably somewhere around nine weeks, but we didn't find out until about, until the 12 week appointment basically. And that was total shock to us and just heart wrenching. And it was also infuriating because it wasn't until that loss that anybody told us that
It's actually pretty common. Pregnancies did not work out. You know, they estimate something like one in four. I mean, that's a lot. And even if that's not distributed evenly across everybody, that's still a lot. And I was, I remember just being furious. Like how could, you know, the, it was very undirected fury because like, I don't know where, where do you aim it? But like, that's not the picture that is painted. If
Michael Williams (36:08.686)
You are just casually observing the world. The picture that is painted is that you get pregnant and everything goes great. And nine months later, you have a baby that changes your life.
And I fell robbed and Allison fell robbed. You know, she similarly was unaware of the numbers and just how that stacks up. And for Allison, I mean, she has always wanted to be a mom. And I've always wanted to be a dad, but she wants to be a mom. Like she thinks about her purpose in life as being a mom. And I think about one of my purposes in life as being a dad and there's probably
I think I have other purposes too. And so it was really gut wrenching for her. I mean, you know, how did we get through that? I, I, I don't know. Like, I don't know the answer. Right. We, time went by, we held each other a lot. We, I think one of the things that we do pretty well is we give each other space and then we kind of do this like, you know, this is not going to show up on the
the podcast, but there's like this, like give each other space and then come back together and talk about what happened in that space and then go out and go find some more space and come back and talk about what happened in that space. And so that's been a recurring thing that we have with them. And then we, you know, we, we took some time and, and, you know, waited until physically and mentally we felt like we were ready to go again and we, we gave it another shot and that one worked out great. That was, that was Pax. He, you know, besides some
some late minute scares during the actual delivery. Everything was fine. But certainly that first loss affected the way that we were able to experience the second pregnancy. I mean, we have not been able to be just fully, just excited about a pregnancy since that first loss. And that's hard because I still feel robbed of that. And you see people that, they have three kids and there was three pregnancies and they went great. And it's like you...
Michael Williams (38:20.014)
You got to be just excited for three pregnancies like that. And I'm happy for you and I'm also super pissed. So yeah, so Pax was born in 2018, at the end of 2018. And we had sort of been planning to try sometime around the time where he was two and a half. And that just so happened to be.
COVID and it was at least suggested to us by doctors, hey, like maybe just wait and see, because we don't really know much about this thing yet. And so we waited a little bit and then tried again and, and we lost seraphina at 22 weeks. So that's, that's technically a stillbirth and that is, you know,
You can't, I don't know how to describe that. You think you're past all the like main milestones, right? Everything looks good at the 13 week appointment. And then you go in at 20 and they're like, there's not very much liquid in the sack around your baby. And, and you're like, well, what does that mean? And then like, well, we don't know. And then, you know, it's just, we're going to, we're going to look at more things and
Eventually you kind of get the news that like, almost certainly this is not going to end well. And even then you still are like, maybe there's hope, right? I know for us, there was, there was a very clear milestone of we needed to get to, I think it was 24 weeks. And if we got to 24 weeks, they would, we could go, we could fly somewhere and they would try to deliver her. And, but you know, we didn't, we didn't make it.
or she didn't make it. So that I think has shaped our lives, you know, probably just permanently in terms of an experience that I think changes the way we think about life, not in terms of necessarily the way we live our lives, but just life, actual life. And one of the things that Redox did for us after that loss that was just amazing was they basically told me to get out and
Michael Williams (40:42.83)
And take the rest of the year off, which was about six weeks or so, something like that. And so we, we took that time and hopped in our camper and drove to Arizona and hung out and.
some just really beautiful places and just kind of like talk about getting space. Like that was getting some really good space and finding, finding ourselves again. It's very easy to feel lost. I think I think both Alison and I feel felt a little bit lost after that. And, and we were given space and we were able to sort of find ourselves again, even in the grief and everything else like, you're still, you're still there. And
You're still not just there, you're still here and you're still Allison. You're still Paxton. I'm still me, you know, I'm, I'm dented a little bit. And then it happened again.
This time it was at 16 weeks and we named that one Stella, that girl Stella. And you know, that was just pure anger. I think from both of us, you know, there's no explanation. They have, you know, the doctors have some hypotheses, but there's no way to know for sure what happened and there's...
no way to know if there's really anything that can be done. And so it feels like getting struck by lightning twice. You know, I think, you know, we sort of came to accept that the first loss was in the realm of normal, but these, these other two are definitely not. And so we, for that, after that loss, I mean, it's just, just absolute anger. And you know, that was okay, straight to therapy. We got, we need.
Michael Williams (42:32.494)
We need people to help us work through this one because it just feels so different.
And you start to have thoughts like, well, maybe this is it. Maybe this is our family. How do we, like, can we, can we survive another one of these? Right. Can we, can we even survive a pregnancy where we're constantly worried that this is going to happen?
Michael Williams (42:59.15)
So we took actually quite a, quite a bit of time off after that pregnancy before kind of mustering the courage to try one more time. And I think we, we went into the next pregnancy pretty clear between the two of us that, you know, if something like that happened again, that was, we couldn't do it. You know, that was going to be it. We're going to, we were probably going to try to grow our family, but it was going to have to be some other way. and you know, by the way,
we have been very lucky in that when we have wanted to get pregnant, we've been able to get pregnant and a lot of people, that's not the case. And so ours, our, you know, we certainly have some, some pain, but I, you know, I'm sure there are people that will hear this and experience the sort of, let's say maybe jealousy, just hearing me say like, Hey, we wanted to get pregnant and we got pregnant. That's not the experience for everybody. And
And that's a totally different type of pain and I...
I'm grateful that we haven't had to go through that and also just want to acknowledge that that's out there.
Anyway, we, we tried again and we were able to get pregnant and we had Theo and he's perfectly healthy baby boy. And he likes to cuddle and he likes to dance. I mean, he, you turn on music and he just starts wiggling his butt and. Or, you know, we're obviously, we're just so happy that, that he's here. And also we miss our.
Michael Williams (44:43.342)
those two girls and we missed that first one. And we wanted to have more and we had what's called a chemical pregnancy just a couple months ago where, you know, pregnancy, you know, we got a positive pregnancy test, but basically within a few days, we knew that it wasn't going to go much further than that. And, you know, where does that leave your emotions? I don't know, but it's certainly been.
a journey and something that has shaped our family for sure. What was it like? I could see each of the each time you're pregnant, kind of each of those being each subsequent one being a little bit of a different experience. And I'm curious if you could maybe you don't remember, but could you talk about just the day to day experience of carrying that around? The hope, the being afraid to hope?
And I'm particularly interested in once you had your oldest. So, you have a child in the mix and so you have a family. So, you have a responsibilities as a father, as a mother, and there's someone that needs your love. And meanwhile, there's this massive pending thing you're carrying around. So, could you just kind of talk about what that
If you can remember, if you know, if, if you want to go there, what that's like. Yeah, I can remember. And I, I know that it's different. It felt different for me. And for Alison, for me, it's actually a very familiar feeling. And I'm trying to think of, so, okay. The way I would describe the feeling is you're about to give a presentation.
on something that you're really excited about and it's going to be a big deal. And you just remember that you forgot one of the most important things that you were going to present or like you forgot to bring something along that, like that feeling in that moment of like, shoot, I am going to mess this up. That like digs into your gut is basically the
Michael Williams (47:10.414)
feeling that I walked around with. I'm still excited about the thing. I, you know, I know that I can deal with, with this, with a problem that comes up if there really, if there is a problem, but it's like, you feel the feeling of being punched in the gut before you are actually punched in the gut or, or something like that. And so, I don't know. I mean, I, like, how do you go nine months or, you know, it's really, it's
Like 10 months, right? It's a really long time. Experiencing hope and terror every day. I don't know. I don't know how I did it, but I did it. And, you know, certainly I think I distracted myself to some extent.
I think that Paxton helped for us. I don't know that that would be the case for everybody. I think that that's going to be a case by case thing for sure. But for both Alison and I think having Paxton helped because he brought us back to.
back to the present and back to things that were in our control or at least things that we could, that made more sense to worry about.
Because, you know, for those, and especially for me, there was nothing I could do. I could only wait. I first just want to tell you how thankful I am of your willingness and courage to share this story. How you started this, which is just very clearly sharing the belief that you and Allison had and finding out that that belief is not reality.
Michael Williams (48:57.998)
starts by people like you two being willing to tell these heart -wrenching stories. So, I just wanna thank you for that. My question is, how did you need to show up for Allison in this moment? You know, we heard you talk about how you took care of yourself, you know, how you had to be there for your son, Pax. What was your role in terms of supporting your wife?
Yeah, that changes, right? Over time, there's a different role that, there's a role that I play after losses in the sort of immediate aftermath of that. And there's a role that I play in the calm between, and there's a role that I play in pregnancy. And I don't play those roles like very well all the time, but I try. I think after the losses is really...
Okay. So for, let's say for the, I think it's, I don't know how much of it's just the non -birth impairment versus it's dads, like in particular, I'm not, I'm not sure, but so much energy and support and love gets directed towards Allison that, and I want to do that too, but I also have to somehow.
go through like my own process of, of grieving. And that's not to say that I didn't have, you know, support from other people or, or anything along those lines, but especially with the two girls, those, we went to the hospital and she delivered those babies. And so not only was there the emotional toll for her, but she, you know, gave a vaginal delivery to both of those babies and their physical crap that has to be dealt with.
and physical recovery that has to happen on top of everything else. So that sort of love and support and attention that, you know, she, in some way she needs more of that.
Michael Williams (51:12.814)
But I found it really hard to figure out how to.
Michael Williams (51:22.766)
Let myself fall apart while also feeling the pressure to be strong.
for Alison and you know, I don't feel that from a, from the standpoint of like, you know, you're the man, so you need to be strong. Like if that's not where that, that came from, I think it just comes from straight up. I see my wife hurting really bad and I want to help her. And then like to sort of like dig deep and like go to do that and realize that I don't have any thing to give in this moment. Cause I'm, I'm in shambles myself. So I found it hard, but I, I,
You know, again, I think what we found was this dance of let's go our separate ways and for a moment and just kind of let ourselves fall apart and then let's come back. And I think just to be more tangible, like what is going your separate ways for us? For me, for us, that was just emotionally going our separate ways for a little bit. You know, it's not like we're. Right.
Like going to like living in separate places or any, or anything like that. You know, sometimes it was just like, I'm going to go sit in the backyard and just stare at the sky for a while. And, you know, for her, it would, it could be, she's going to work on her painting or she's going to, you know, a lot of just looking at pictures, looking at memories, looking at, you know, specifically.
pictures we took of at the hospital when she was delivering those babies. And then at the end of the day, let's come back together and, and just kind of sit together. And like, sometimes we would talk about how angry we were or the things that we were feeling. And sometimes we would just talk about like, Hey, I heard that our friends are doing this fun thing. Doesn't that kind of sound fun? You know, you just kind of let it go where it needs to go. And for us that's.
Michael Williams (53:28.846)
That's what has worked. And so I expect that everybody's got to find their own thing.
friends or people otherwise in your community who are also pregnant or having kids at the same time? We did. And in particular for one of the pregnancies, Allison's best friend got pregnant at the same time and Allison's brother's wife, sister -in -law, got pregnant at the same time. And like the due dates were within like weeks of each other. And I remember feeling a little bit like
Hey, like this is going to be amazing. And I remember that Alison early on in the pregnancy was like, there's no way that this is going to work out. And it didn't, you know, so I don't know whether it's instinct or whatever it was, but she had a feeling that that just couldn't work out that well. Like the universe just wasn't going to be that good to us. So, and that could also just be like, she was hurt really bad. And so it's hard for her to believe.
that it's going to go well. Did you have to, you know, you're sitting around talking with your friends, they're talking about pregnancy, they're talking about their kids. Did you have to do any inside work to be able to operate in those environments? Yeah. So, I mean, I think both Alison and I feel that kind of same gut punch in those moments, in particular, like around the losses, we would feel those moments. I don't know that we did anything more than what we were doing.
particularly for that, but I know that we recognized how frustrating it was to not be able to be happy completely for the people that we should be really happy for because we were also just mad or jealous is maybe, you know, we're not, you know, we were mad at the universe and jealous that, you know, of those people, I guess is maybe the way to say it. And we did, we, we like recognize that and we would say it.
Michael Williams (55:40.366)
to each other and we would feel like terrible people. But it was real. I mean, that's what, that's what it was. Like, I don't know that you can control that. So I think the best we could do was just acknowledge that it was there and say it to each other and try to show up as best we could for those other people. I have a question. So my wife and I had for, have fertility challenges. So we're, we're
one of the people that, that you kind of mentioned where we've had challenges getting pregnant. So I'll just ask this question and you could decide if you want to answer it. Have you ever thought about what life would be like if you were never successful? So between that first loss and when PAX was born, that was the time where we did at least that thought cross our mind, right? Like maybe this is never going to happen for us. And for myself,
I, I at least entertained the idea in my head of like, what is, what is life without kids? But I, I kind of knew I was going to somehow I was going to have kids. And if it wasn't going to happen through the normal quote unquote normal way, right? We were going to do something else. We were going to foster or adopt or something.
Alison never even entertained it. Like she's going to be a mom and the world's not going to stop her. So, you know, I think she, she really wanted to have kids of her own, but she, you know, she would be the first to say probably if that wasn't an option, we were going to go find other options. My experience had two effects on me. Art took a couple of years. We were, we were, we have a daughter, we were successful.
I actually found out today we have in our, we did egg donors. We have five more embryos. I found out a few hours ago. I do not understand how the grading system works for them. I will, I should say for the record, but five viable. However, getting to the first live baby took several years. And so I can tell you that had we not been successful, I'm not sure if that was a recoverable experience.
Michael Williams (58:03.342)
for my wife and I. I'll never know. So I won't, we don't, I don't, but that's how it felt. I, I, and being, you know, what you talked about with, you can't put a hundred percent into being happy for your friends or for other family members who are going, who are further down the road than you, who've been successful. And I don't think there's anything to feel too bad about that, but it is impossible to.
be truly, to be completely, you know, in on that. And I'm having my daughter now, I'm in this, what is, what feels like a frightening position, going through all we went through to get here, were something to happen to her, it would be, I would never recover. That's probably not unique to, you know, to anyone with a child, I'm sure, sure would say that. But to feel
that there is this other thing running through the world out of your control that could destroy you is a very frightening position to be in. And sort of going off that, I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about how the experience has informed your experience now as a dad. So can you draw?
Are there any threads that you've noticed or any mindset or just anything that you've noticed about that you think maybe this is different because of what your journey was? Cause I know for me, for sure it is. This is an area that I think Alison and I are pretty different. I am in general, not a particularly risk averse person and
One of the things that I believe very strongly is that there is no reason to think that we caused any of the issues that happened with our pregnancies. Something went wrong. And certainly even if there was something that we did that pointed and that we don't know, right? And nobody's ever going to be able to know. And so we can't hold ourselves to some impossible.
Michael Williams (01:00:27.758)
And kind of one of the interesting things like not being risk averse and believing that that it's happened for me is that I am like
We got to, we got to live life all out because it doesn't matter. So like sometimes it doesn't matter how, how much you try to protect people or whatever. Like sometimes things just go wrong and I don't want to spend my whole life trying to protect against that because there's just, there's just so many things that could go wrong and you can't protect against all of them. And the way that my life would look if I was trying to protect.
protect against all of them is not how I want to live my life. And so I've almost had this sort of like reverse reaction of let's, let's make the most of it. And I do feel that fear at times. And I, I just try to in those moments, remind myself that it wasn't our fault. And
In the grand scheme of things, even if I made a terrible error and it led to something horrible happening with one of my, my kids today, that it would be an accident. Even if, even if I, you know, if you could pretty clearly draw a line to like, Hey, like I was negligent in a moment or something like that in the grand scheme of things, it would be an accident. Cause obviously I didn't want that to happen. And obviously I am doing my best. So.
So that's been my reaction is like, I can't prevent all the bad things from happening, but I can make sure that whatever time we have is as good as we can make it. Alison has, I think, you know, she's much more risk averse than I am. And her instinct is to clamp down and to identify all the risks in any given situation and try to figure out the right mitigating strategies and, and.
Michael Williams (01:02:33.518)
And I think there's a real fear that has a hold of her to some extent. And it comes and goes. And I think it lessens to some extent as the kids get older, because you can tell what's going on with them a little bit better as they get older. And especially the first six months is just, she really is kind of in terror mode the whole time, even though she can see them. But she can't talk to them and they can't communicate very well.
That's, I think the difference between her and I and my reaction. And I think that some of that is just, that's how, to some extent, that's how I've always been. I also think have a general belief that even though it seems like it would be unsurvivable, I think that people figure out how to survive those types of things. And if you are really
open to what the universe is offering, you can sometimes find a way to have some really good meaning come out of that. You never wish it on anybody, but that, you know, again, that's sort of my view on it, or at least the view I try to have on it. I never understood when people would talk about some horrible thing that happened to them and being an after the fact being like, I'm, I'm grateful for XYZ.
until... And it's really easy when it ends positively. And which, you know, in my case, you know, like we got a child. Like it was pretty cool. But I am appreciative of some of the absolute hell that we went through because you have to face directly the fact that nothing is guaranteed. And I try personally to
in one form or another connect with that, you know, daily if I can take a few minutes of, you know, to, to just try to set myself on a, and keep myself on a good path for the day. And I was so fucking ready to wash diapers. Like, you know what I mean? And just like all this different stuff that I maybe would have, you know, been as enthusiastic about, but when the, when the, when the going has gotten tough around the house, I just, it's like, this is a
Michael Williams (01:04:59.342)
This hell is a true blessing. You know, in the moment, I'm way more resilient toward some difficult situations than I think I would have been if I felt like, you know, if it was just a run of the mill thing, you know, I really had to connect with the fact that I really want this, you know, so it's interesting how there is a certain amount of
positive that I feel toward my particular path and having to, you know, having to confront that, you know, directly. Yeah. The sheer terror of realizing that you actually, that you like really want something and it's not guaranteed is very informative. One of the things you mentioned TC is your
You know, I think you mentioned it as part of working in a church group or community group. How have you incorporated your faith into your life and really how are you bringing your faith into how you are a dad? Yeah, this is a wild topic. So I go to church and I help out at that church by playing in the band and by
helping out with the youth group. And I was recently went on a men's retreat with dudes from the church. If you were to ask me, TC, do you believe in God? You know, my answer would probably be no. Like it's, you know, at least in any of the sort of standard ways that people
think about God. But man, I do, I believe in the power of community and the power of people coming to a space together to like share their joys, share their concerns, support each other and think about how to be better versions of themselves. Heck yeah, I do. And, you know, I, that's
Michael Williams (01:07:19.406)
That has been my experience of the two main churches that I've been in in my life is that when push comes to shove, they don't really seem to care what I believe in. They care how I show up and, you know, what I can do and what I can bring. And they care that they can support me. And I think that's amazing. And I think that I wish that more people understood church or places of faith.
of any sort of faith as that more so than what is, it's easy to, to think of, of places of faith as, as, you know, I don't know, people that are just lost their minds or they believe this and they believe that, or these other people believe that and they disagree or they're weird or whatever it is. So
So, so anyway, that's the, what is my faith? You know, I guess that's my faith, right? It's like, I believe that people can do really cool things when they come together. And it just so happens that sometimes a church can be one of those places that can, can provide that space. And so, you know, I want my kids to, to understand church as that. I also want them to find their own beliefs.
And choose for themselves, like what the right spaces are going to be for them. So I kind of recognize that I'm, I'm bringing in them to, to our church and Allison is kind of all in as well on that. And so we're certainly pushing them in a certain direction, but this is, this is starting to get really strange as Pax is five and he's like pretty smart and he's starting to ask some questions and you're just like,
I don't know how to answer this for you, but... Because I want him to be curious and to...
Michael Williams (01:09:21.87)
to choose his own path and, and how do I balance that with me just sitting down and be like, okay, well, let me tell you what I actually think, Pax. Cause like, it's not what, it's probably not what you think I think.
at this point.
So at least, you know, that I think is a little bit about just what is my faith and what is it that I want Pax and Theo to get, although, you know, Theo's one, so he just gets with the nursery workers and they love him. So, you know, that's pretty good for him. In those conversations with Pax, how do you frame up church? Like when it's like, hey, we're
It's Sunday morning. We're going to go. Right now. How do you talk about it? Yeah, right now it's pretty straightforward because he likes going and he has friends that are at church and he really likes the adults that work in the Sunday school. And you know, every once in a while he convinces them to let, to let them go back to the nursery so he can hang out with his brother.
And so it's, it's, you know, there, there's not much to it besides it's a place that we go and he likes it. What is the, you mentioned the men's retreat. What does that involve? Yeah. So that was cool. That was well, so it was a bunch of guys that are older than 70. And then, you know, there was like me and like three other guys that were in our thirties and forties. And we went to the YMCA, the Rockies, which is really cool. It's, it's up right outside of Rocky mountain national park.
Michael Williams (01:11:08.782)
And it's just like huge.
campus type place and right in the mountains, just, just gorgeous. And we spent two nights there. And so it was kind of Friday evening and then all day Saturday and then Sunday morning. And we spent that time talking a little bit about, I think, so the, the, I guess the tagline of this year's men's retreat was who do you say that I am? And
We spent some time talking about how, who we are is actually a collaborative exercise. Who I am is a collaborative exercise. It is not just me defining who I am, but it is other people helping me discover who I am and mirroring back to me things that, that I might like, or sometimes I might really not like. And.
And, and sometimes like just the way that you come to understand yourself, it has to be through other people or something, you know, people will say things to you, right. That. And it's kind of wild. Cause just the last couple of days I've been going through that. Redox. I let them know that I'm, I'm leaving and people have said some just remarkable things that, that I didn't know. I just didn't know about myself.
And so it was just, it was that in action, right? So anyway, you know, in a men's retreat that's put on by your church, when you're, you know, the one guy there who was like pretty clearly like, I don't really believe in, in God, or I don't understand these, these things in the same way that, that other, that the rest of you do was interesting. But I mean, also it was just, it was a great experience. We, we spent time in smaller groups.
Michael Williams (01:13:08.078)
with kind of specific discussion topics about being men and having the opportunity to hear from some older folks, what are the things that they've struggled with and what are the things that they wish they had worked through earlier? That was really cool. So it was, yeah, we got to go hiking in the mountains too. So that's pretty awesome.
It's so interesting to hear you talk about that, you know, it's what it makes me think of is there's so few opportunities for us to really come together as like a real cross section of humanity these days. You know, we're clustered and isolated. And one of those big dimensions is age. And the more and more I've experienced fatherhood and the more and more I've
talk to other people about being a father, the more and more I ate.
I'm coming to believe that like cross -generational discussion and the sharing of wisdom is something that we really could all use a little bit more of.
Michael Williams (01:14:22.254)
Yeah, I, I totally agree. And I noticed the lack of those types of spaces in my life, whether it's cross -generational or just really any kind of, of place to just kind of come together and be in community with other people is wild, but like churches or faith groups are one of a very few number of places that are readily available. And unfortunately the other
Big handful of things is usually support groups or some sort of trauma based community. Don't get me wrong. I'm very glad that those things exist, but like there's much less of the just like, you know, I'm not here because I need a specific thing. I'm here because I want to be with others and learn from others and do stuff with others. So I'm going to take a quick break. I'm going to move to the last question just because of time.
We've covered a lot of ground today. Are both of you guys cool if I move to the last question? Cool. All right, TC. We end this podcast with the same question every time. What advice do you have for other current and future dads? Well, my first piece of advice would be don't listen to anybody else's advice.
Or maybe listen to it, but it's not gospel. It might be their truth, but in all honesty, it might be their truth just in this one specific moment and their truth is going to change. Mine has certainly has. So don't listen to anybody's advice and also don't listen to my advice. So maybe do listen to other people's advice. The other thing that I think of, not all that different from that honestly, but is just let being a father come to you.
Try to force it to be a specific thing. Don't try to force specific things to happen.
Michael Williams (01:16:32.782)
be exceptionally patient with yourself as you discover what being a father is for you. That I've come to realize that that is, that's the rest of my life now. And I, and you know, it's so obvious now that I think about it, but it wasn't like, I, you know, when I, I thought I was going to become a father and then
You know, it was going to sort of be a certain way and, and the end. It's like, how dumb is that? But just be open to like, to whatever it's going to be for you and including the ways that it's going to disappoint you. And especially the ways that it's going to be incredibly difficult because no getting around that. And if you're open like that, then there's going to be.
you know, these other things that show up. We were like, wow, I didn't, I didn't know that was the thing. I like that. Let's do that. So there you go. Don't listen to anybody and be open and be patient with yourself. And let the greatness come to you. Let the greatness come to you. Let the world come to you. Yeah.
We see, I think your faith that you're a, you're a confusionist.
Something like that. Yeah. I keep thinking that one of these days I'm going to have a conversation with one of my coworkers, LT. And he's just going to, he's going to say, see TC, this is, this is what I've been trying to tell you all along. now I get it. All right. Well, TC, huge heartfelt thank you.
Michael Williams (01:18:34.03)
Thank you for who you are. Thank you for your story. Thank you for being open and willing to share with us. Yeah, it was incredible hearing what you had to say. Yeah, thank you. Well, thanks for having me and thanks for asking these questions so that I had some space to answer them. Awesome. All right. With that, thank you. Thank you, everybody, for listening and good luck.
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