Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Host Stacy Havener brings you the storytelling tips, sales strategies, behavioral secrets, and inspirational stories that help YOU turn your words into dollars. Learn from sales and marketing experts. Meet finance and investment leaders, founders and fund managers who have made it, and the ones on the rise. Because there are people behind the portfolios. Their stories matter. So does yours.
@stacyhavener // www.billiondollarbackstory.com/
B$B 66 Tenkman Episode Transcript
===
[00:00:00] Stacy Havener: Imagine I'm doing that DJ scratch the record thing. Welcome to Billion Dollar Backstory podcast rewind. We passed the 50 episode mark and there are some gems at the beginning of our podcast series. So while we're on summer hiatus, we're going billion dollar back backstory with some of our most popular episodes.
[00:00:21] Stacy Havener: Hope you enjoy.
[00:00:23] Gary Tenkman: I got good grades in math and the wrestling coach at my high school was the guidance counselor and he's like, you're good at math. You should go into an accounting. I'm like, that sounds good. That's what I did. I went into accounting and I enjoyed what I did in college and ended up getting a co op, which is like a long term internship that UC has with Ernst Young.
[00:00:40] Gary Tenkman: And that's kind of how I got, I kind of broke into accounting slash finance career coming out of college. What was probably the most interesting thing about my time at E& Y was, so I do these, it's called a co op. You go to school six months and you work six months. So after my first six months, I was really a fish out of water.
[00:00:57] Gary Tenkman: Like I never had a suit before. [00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Stacy Havener: Hey, my name is Stacey Havener. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys club, Wall Street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques.
[00:01:18] Stacy Havener: You could say against the odds. Yeah. Understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales, and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy hour.
[00:01:45] Stacy Havener: Pull up a seat, grab your notebook and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the billion dollar backstory podcast.
[00:01:58] Stacy Havener: Not everyone in asset [00:02:00] management comes from a long line of investment people. Some of us weren't born with a silver spoon. Maybe we were the first person in our families to go to college. As a blue collar kid, this episode hits the heart for me. Gary Tankman is the current CEO of financial services powerhouse Ultimis Fund Solutions.
[00:02:22] Stacy Havener: The Ultimis team represents over 400 billion in assets, serves more than 450 investment management clients, represents over 1, 500 funds, and has almost 1, 000 employees. Gary's got a big job at a big company, and yet he has stayed true to his roots. Gary came from humble beginnings. He learned the hard way that you don't order the French onion soup at a business dinner.
[00:02:51] Stacy Havener: I have been there. And he overcame some very relatable challenges on his journey to the CEO seat. His [00:03:00] story is refreshing. And you know what else is refreshing? The https: otter. ai
[00:03:11] Stacy Havener: That client service is their differentiator. It's their edge. This is exactly what we talk about on this podcast. People do business with people. Gary reminds us of an important lesson. Never forget where you came from, but never let that hold you back from where you want to go. This is a special conversation with a special person.
[00:03:36] Stacy Havener: Meet my friend, Gary Tankman. Gary, thank you so much for being with us today. This is a true pleasure. And as we were chatting in the green room, I'm actually excited that I got to have the conversation with Bob Dorsey before you and I are sitting down in the studio because it's really changed how I want to take the [00:04:00] direction of this podcast.
[00:04:01] Stacy Havener: And I'm no one can see me, but I'm like a kid in the candy store right now. So thank you for being here.
[00:04:07] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, no, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me Stacy.
[00:04:10] Stacy Havener: Of course. So, okay. Well, we have to start at the beginning I mean my favorite thing is stories. I love to hear people's backstory and I think what's Most interesting for me, and has been most interesting in the podcast interviews I've done so far, is not everybody, you know, sort of is a child dreaming about being an executive in the finance industry or whatever career they actually end up in.
[00:04:40] Stacy Havener: And I wonder if that was the case for you. So I'm going to let you go as far back as you want to. What has the journey been like for you? Did you always know you wanted to be in finance? Um,
[00:04:50] Gary Tenkman: No, I mean, I didn't, when I was in high school, I didn't even know what finance was.
[00:04:54] Stacy Havener: Same.
[00:04:54] Gary Tenkman: I was the first person in my family to go to college.
[00:04:57] Stacy Havener: Ah.
[00:04:58] Gary Tenkman: So, my parents were [00:05:00] pretty hard on me, wanting to make sure that I got good grades and ended up going to college, which I grew up in Cincinnati and went to the University of Cincinnati and I lived at home. I went there because I could commute. And so I had to pay tuition myself. So I had like three jobs while I was going there.
[00:05:15] Gary Tenkman: I mean, I got good grades in math and the wrestling coach at my high school is the guidance counselor. And he's like, you're good at math. You should go into an accounting. I'm like, that sounds good. That's what I did. I went into accounting and I enjoyed what I did in college and ended up getting a co op, which is like a long term internship that UC has with Ernst Young.
[00:05:33] Gary Tenkman: And that's kind of how I got, I kind of, Broke into accounting slash finance career coming out of college. What was probably the most interesting thing about my time at ENY was, so I do these, it's called a co op. You go to school six months and you work six months. So after my first six months, I was really a fish out of water.
[00:05:52] Gary Tenkman: Like I never had a suit before.
[00:05:54] Stacy Havener: Okay.
[00:05:54] Gary Tenkman: I remember going to like the first week I went to this big orientation up in Cleveland and [00:06:00] sat down and ordered the French onion soup and I didn't know what that was. And. I realized really quickly that you shouldn't order French onion soup, um, at a business dinner.
[00:06:09] Gary Tenkman: It's not the easiest thing to eat, but you know, I was a fish out of water. I really had a hard time with it. You know, my last day before I go back to school, you know, one of the main partners sat me down and he starts talking and I'm realizing like, I'm about to get fired.
[00:06:24] Stacy Havener: No.
[00:06:24] Gary Tenkman: And he was going down the track of firing me.
[00:06:27] Gary Tenkman: And I just said, Jack, come on. Like, first of all, I got three reviews all like yesterday. The whole time I've been here and nobody's really given me a chance. And I think I at least deserve another swing at this. And I kind of made my case and he said, well, let me think about it. And he called me two weeks later and he said, look, we want you to come back in the fall.
[00:06:47] Gary Tenkman: And I came back and just took what I learned, which, you know, a lot of it was just like, look, you're just the same as everybody else, just because you don't have people that in your Family that didn't go to college doesn't mean you can't [00:07:00] fit in. And because it was even strange for me, like when I walked into first meet partners, it was, Hey, how you doing?
[00:07:06] Gary Tenkman: Mr. Callie. And no, call me Jack. Well, it's like, we don't do that where I grow up. Call everybody. Mr. Mr. And Mrs.
[00:07:13] Stacy Havener: Totally relate to that.
[00:07:16] Gary Tenkman: Right. And so like, I just took what I learned from those reviews and I had a couple of really good kind of mentors that were bought, you know, kind of oversaw me on some of the, some of the audits that gave me some feedback and they really wanted me to come back.
[00:07:27] Gary Tenkman: And after that, I always got excellent reviews. Um, but it, you know, could have torpedoed my career pretty quickly, but, uh, you got to work through those things and take the feedback and try and advocate for yourself, I think is kind of what I learned pretty early on from that experience. Thanks. And I was a staff to actually working for Ian wine.
[00:07:46] Gary Tenkman: Somebody was sick one day on, and I'm sitting in the staff room with nothing to do. Somebody was sick and they sent me, they sent me out to do on an audit of a mutual fund. And then I got stuck on that audit and then suddenly I became like the mutual [00:08:00] fund. Guy at Ernst and Young kind of in the Ohio area.
[00:08:04] Gary Tenkman: And that's how I ended up really getting into the fun business. I did a lot of other things at Ernst and Young, but I really enjoyed that business just because it was so fast paced. It would seem so much more diverse than a lot of the other businesses that I worked with, cause I worked in healthcare and insurance and all kinds of other manufacturing, it just seemed really, really exciting.
[00:08:25] Gary Tenkman: And I worked a lot at Bisis, which is a big administrator up in Columbus, Ohio. You probably remember and.
[00:08:31] Stacy Havener: Oh, yeah, sure.
[00:08:32] Gary Tenkman: At some point, they ended up asking me to come work for them. And so I left Ernst Young to go work for, for BISIS. And at the time I came over as a, you know, a director in their financial administration group.
[00:08:43] Gary Tenkman: Shortly thereafter, they merged fund accounting in and ended up, you know, overseeing a fund accounting and financial admin group for a few years. And I think, you know, from a career perspective, my biggest challenge was naturally being an introvert.
[00:08:56] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I want to talk about that.
[00:08:57] Gary Tenkman: Was, you know, I'm fine.
[00:08:59] Gary Tenkman: Like, [00:09:00] you know, in smaller groups, whatever, I'm not the best at small talk like Bob Dorsey is I'll never live up to Bob, Bob Dorsey at that. But where I was terrible, it was just terrible. Was it it's public speaking. Like I got one C in college and it was in speech. And I basically got an F in speaking and an A in writing speeches.
[00:09:19] Gary Tenkman: So it got me a C.
[00:09:23] Stacy Havener: Are you an investment boutique looking to grow your business and need a little help? If you feel like you're fighting for the spotlight and, well, still stuck in the shadows of the bigs, join us in the Boutique Investment Collective, Havener's new membership community dedicated to the specialist in the investment industry.
[00:09:39] Stacy Havener: In the collective, we'll guide you through the billion dollar blueprint we've used to help boutiques add over 30 billion in AUM. You'll refine your story, focus on your ideal target market, and practice your pitch. You'll rethink your marketing materials, rewrite your emails and refresh your differentiators.
[00:09:57] Stacy Havener: We'll even help you step up your LinkedIn game and give your [00:10:00] profile a makeover. You want to grow your biz. We've got your back. Learn more about the collective, the curriculum, and the amazing coaches who will help you on your journey. Visit Haven or capital. com slash collective high five. Hope to see you in a coaching session soon.
[00:10:23] Stacy Havener: You know, I want to pause because first of all, thank you so much for sharing your backstory. And as a blue collar kid, I very, very much related to it. And I did not know that about you. I didn't know some of the roots and, and the sort of feeling like a fish out of water, but not just because everybody feels like a fish out of water when they get their first job, but also just because you haven't.
[00:10:45] Stacy Havener: grown up in that environment. And I think that's important for people to hear, you know, that you made it happen. You fought for yourself. You got yourself a second chance, like that was just an amazing story. So thank you for sharing that. I want to pause on [00:11:00] this whole idea of introvert, extrovert, because, you know, there's a perception and I don't think it's wrong.
[00:11:07] Stacy Havener: I mean, there's a perception that the investment industry is all introverts. Right? That these are like math and science people. These are left brain people. They are much more comfortable behind a screen, a computer screen and at their desk than they are sort of out in the wild, so to speak, interacting with people.
[00:11:24] Stacy Havener: And like I said, I don't think they're wrong. I think there are a lot of us that are introverted in the investment world. What I find so interesting is given that you shared that that speech and presenting and those types of things were maybe your most challenging discipline. In school. And then obviously you had to do it in your, you know, sort of day job.
[00:11:46] Stacy Havener: Now here you are as a CEO, which is such a, you know, a pivot from being kind of behind the scenes to now sort of having a much more external facing role. How has that been for you?
[00:11:58] Gary Tenkman: Well I mean look a [00:12:00] lot of it I set the groundwork when I went to BISIS I mean I I realized that I was never going to make it anywhere pretty quickly like if I can't get in front of people and speak and I got to be able to think on my toes and and so I consciously force myself like if there's department meetings to To talk about some kind of topic and get up in front of everybody.
[00:12:20] Gary Tenkman: And God, I, there's every, every fiber of my being was like, do not do this. Like don't run for the Hills. I mean, it was really hard, but I just kept forcing myself to do it. And I worked on, Hey, let's, I tried to use what worked for me. Like, Hey, I'll use a little humor. If I can get somebody to laugh, that'll calm me down.
[00:12:38] Gary Tenkman: I'm talking about something I know I'll be able to get through this. And then. It's just repetitive. You keep doing it, you keep forcing yourself to do it and you just start getting better at it. And look, if I have to get up in front of a hundred people, I'm going to be nervous today, you know, 30 years later, but I'll be fine at the end of the day.
[00:12:56] Gary Tenkman: I'll be fine. I'll get through it. Cause I've just know the tools to try and manage my way [00:13:00] to get through it. But you gotta, if you're willing to take the time and put that effort in and kind of push through the fear a little bit, then you're going to be okay and you got to do it, otherwise you'll just never be good at it.
[00:13:11] Stacy Havener: Yeah, it's so true. You know, my, I have a six year old daughter and she's in kindergarten. And when we were meeting with the kindergarten teacher, they said to us, you know, one of the things that the kids have to do is we do a morning meeting. And I thought, this is kindergarten, you have a morning meeting?
[00:13:30] Stacy Havener: Like about, you know, I'm just, I'm tracking. And she said, every child in the class has to do a little presentation. Like on Monday, they, Staff to say like what they did over the weekend. And the reason they do it is the exact thing you said. I mean, public speaking is on the list of most terrifying things for so many people.
[00:13:49] Stacy Havener: But to your point, it's the practice. It's the doing it that actually gets you to sort of be comfortable even if you never love it. And so I was blown away by [00:14:00] that. I thought, wow, what an amazing thing that they just get the kids comfortable speaking in front of their small little class. But just doing that every day, because it takes some of the, you know, before it would be like you only did it once a year or like once a semester, right?
[00:14:15] Gary Tenkman: Yeah. Yeah. Look, trust me. I found a way to hide for 12 years in school until I got to college and then I had to do it. Right. I mean, it was just easy to hide. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, it's great that your daughter's school is to fear out early because, you know, it's kind of like skiing, you know, learn how to ski when you're six now when you're 30.
[00:14:33] Gary Tenkman: Um, yeah.
[00:14:34] Stacy Havener: Yeah, exactly. So I'm curious, we've both been chatting about Bob Dorsey here. And for people that haven't listened to that episode, the founder of Ultimis, we did an episode, an interview where Bob shared some of his backstory and kind of how Ultimis came to be. But how did you meet Bob? I mean, obviously, Ohio, Cincinnati, I'm seeing ties.
[00:14:56] Gary Tenkman: So I should probably go a little bit through my career and [00:15:00] then I'll come back to that because it might help kind of round everything out. So I was in Columbus for three years and BISIS had done some acquisitions in Europe and they came to me and asked me to move to Europe to basically be the head of their fund administration group in Europe.
[00:15:15] Stacy Havener: Okay.
[00:15:16] Gary Tenkman: And I didn't even have a passport, by the way, so. And I said, yes, before I had a passport, so I might be crazy a little bit, but I just knew like, look, I was in my early, very early thirties and you know, my boss was in his late thirties. It's like, well, I'm never going to have his job. I got to push myself and I thought it would be fun.
[00:15:35] Gary Tenkman: So I, I moved to Europe and lived in Dublin, Ireland for five years. We, you know, we had offices in London, Guernsey and Luxembourg. And, um, it was a great experience. Cause again, I'm. In my early 30s, I went over there, you know, I had 12 direct reports, all of whom were from different countries. All of whom were older than me, um, and I had to figure out, you know, how am I going to deal with this?
[00:15:57] Gary Tenkman: And then it was really great for me just from a management and [00:16:00] leadership perspective, being able to have that opportunity to do that. But I spent my time doing that and then I went to, I had the opportunity to come back to the States and Byssus was looking to do an acquisition. They ended up acquiring Rothstein Cass Consulting, which back then was very large.
[00:16:17] Gary Tenkman: Private equity and hedge fund admin. And so I ended up moving to North New Jersey and became COO of that business and did that for three years, which obviously it was a business I really hadn't been part of, but one, something I really wanted to learn. And it was pretty fun doing that as well. And I met my wife during that time and got married, lived in Hoboken and then.
[00:16:38] Gary Tenkman: Citibank ended up acquiring Bisis and I spent seven years with Citi doing a lot of different things. But when I left, I was overseeing their North American, broadly speaking, their fund operations. Um, so middle office, hedge funds, private equity, you know, registered funds in the U S and then their Canadian mutual fund operations.
[00:16:57] Gary Tenkman: And towards the end, I just wasn't having fun. [00:17:00] Like, I just felt like it wasn't about clients anymore. It was, you know, we were, Citi's a big organization and there's a lot of great people and it's a great organization. But it just didn't feel entrepreneurial enough for me and I didn't feel like there was enough focus on clients.
[00:17:16] Gary Tenkman: So I started thinking about maybe doing something else and somebody told me like, hey, there's this company called Ultimis in Cincinnati. It's looking for a COO and I was like, who's Ultimis? I had never heard of him. And I said, well, you can put my name in. And Dave Carson ended up calling me a couple of days later.
[00:17:33] Gary Tenkman: So, you know Dave.
[00:17:34] Stacy Havener: Oh, yeah. Sure. I love Dave. Yep.
[00:17:36] Gary Tenkman: Dave just retired after 10 years with Ultimis, so, and spoke to him for a while, and then he put me in touch with Mark Seeger, and, you know, as I'm, after I got done talking to Mark, and I was doing some research, I was like, I know Mark and Bob, like, I know these guys somehow, and I realized that when I was at Ernst Young, we, Did the SAS 70 SOC one audit [00:18:00] of Leshner where Bob and Mark both worked.
[00:18:05] Gary Tenkman: And I was basically like a staff one or staff two, um, right out of college. And I remember Bob was gregarious and walking around the floor and talking to everybody and Mark was making sure the trains were running on time. And as they like to say, Bob would sell the donuts and Mark would make the donuts with his team.
[00:18:23] Gary Tenkman: So I realized that I knew them from that and then ended up. Having an interview with Bob in New York City, which was the best interview I've ever been on because I only had to say like two sentences the whole time. So I thought maybe I might get this job after all, but he ended up knowing more tank men in Cincinnati than I did.
[00:18:42] Stacy Havener: No way.
[00:18:43] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I went home and called my dad, like, do you know John Tankman or Joey Tangman? He's like, yeah, I think it's my third cousin's son. And it's total Bob, like knowing everybody in Cincinnati that he was introducing me to like distant family members.
[00:18:57] Stacy Havener: It's so good.
[00:18:59] Gary Tenkman: Yeah. I mean, that's [00:19:00] how I got to really meet them.
[00:19:01] Gary Tenkman: They didn't remember me from back in the day. I don't think, um, but I remember them for sure.
[00:19:05] Stacy Havener: It's crazy to think that you're from Cincinnati. Your career takes you, my gosh, all the way to Dublin. And then back to New York City, and somehow all roads for Gary Tankman lead back to Cincinnati, Ohio. I mean, what are the odds of that?
[00:19:24] Stacy Havener: That there would be this company, Ultimis, that had these ties to Cincinnati where you were from? I mean, that is so crazy.
[00:19:32] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I mean, it's a small world. I mean, I told my wife about it and she's from New Jersey and she's like, you just want to go back to Cincinnati. I'm like, no, it has nothing to do with Cincinnati.
[00:19:43] Gary Tenkman: I trust me. I like these guys and I think that they've built a great culture and I want to try and help them do something. Help the last.
[00:19:50] Stacy Havener: That is such an awesome story and God, like I said to you, I'm just so glad we did because now people have listened to the Bob story have the context. [00:20:00] So this is just amazing.
[00:20:01] Stacy Havener: You know, what was it like? So when you started Bob and Mark were still active in the business. And then as many people in our industry are going through and we were chatting about this in the green room a little bit, you know, succession is really challenging for a founder led company as you're growing, you want to grow, you want to scale, you're thinking about the next generation or G2, as I just learned today is the phrasing apparently.
[00:20:28] Stacy Havener: And what was that like sort of like just, you know, they decide they're going to pass the torch to you as CEO. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:20:36] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, well, I mean, I think Bob and Mark from the start had the right mindset. I think that what they would tell you is that, hey, we knew how to get there. the company from nothing to here.
[00:20:46] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:20:46] Gary Tenkman: We're not sure how to get it from here to 30 years from now, or 20 years from now, or 10 years from now. And, you know, they kind of put their egos aside to some degree and said, Hey, we need some help to really be able to do this and make sure that Ultimis can survive long [00:21:00] term. And I mean, that made all the difference because if I moved to Cincinnati and we did things exactly the same way Ultimis always did, we wouldn't be where we are Are today, you know, I'm sure it'd be a good company, but you know, it's hard when you're 60 people and you're not, you're not growing because you want to attract really good people and you want to provide them with opportunities to grow and do more things from a career perspective.
[00:21:24] Gary Tenkman: And if you're not continuing to grow the business, it's just kind of hard to do that. So I think they recognize that and kind of let me do a lot of the steering of the ship. And, you know, you know, occasionally we would bump heads, but we always came out on the same side. And the good thing is, is that. You know, I'm from Cincinnati.
[00:21:40] Gary Tenkman: They're from Cincinnati. And it was like, just culturally, we kind of like, we could figure out a way to work it out. And we got to where we needed to be. And it was a great partnership all around.
[00:21:53] Stacy Havener: And so part of that next phase of growth, and you know, as you were talking, there's that adage or saying or [00:22:00] whatever it is that what got you here won't get you there, the next phase. And I think that's really difficult, as you said, for a lot of entrepreneurs and founders to, they know it intellectually, but actually doing it is a very different thing.
[00:22:14] Stacy Havener: So I think it does speak to the partnership you had into them as founders and to you as the G2, the next gen. So part of your growth strategy, I'm guessing that you were involved in the decision to take private equity.
[00:22:29] Gary Tenkman: The first private equity investment happened two years before I joined. And as part of that investment, you know, I think the PE firm was working with Bob and Mark and they understood that they needed to bring somebody else in and they were looking for some time.
[00:22:44] Gary Tenkman: And so, you know, I interviewed with the private equity folks, you know, they had a really great partner, which was important to me coming into it. Cause if you don't have a great private equity partner, you're just not going to be successful. So I had great partners in the founders, but also with the key investor.
[00:22:59] Gary Tenkman: That [00:23:00] was important. So I didn't, I didn't play a lot in that. Now, when we flash forward to our new partners, you know, I did have a lot of influence over that. And, you know, I talked to a lot of private equity firms and, you know, had built a good, really good relationship with GTCR well, prior to us doing a transaction with them.
[00:23:17] Gary Tenkman: And I just felt really comfortable with kind of how they thought about the business. They have a leader strategy where. It's like they support the CEO and really believe in kind of the industry vertical that you're playing in and give you the support that you need to be successful and they've been an outstanding partner for us as well.
[00:23:35] Gary Tenkman: So, I mean, we, you know, we wouldn't be where we were where we are today if it wasn't for them as a partner.
[00:23:41] Stacy Havener: Yeah, and I think I'm glad we're talking about this a little bit because, again, it's sort of like, no matter which part of the ecosystem you sit in, whether it's kind of the back office, FinTech, Ops, kind of realm of Ultimis, or it's more asset management or wealth management, sort of, [00:24:00] All the firms that are scaling and growing are sort of facing a lot of the same challenges, right?
[00:24:04] Stacy Havener: Like, how am I going to scale? Am I going to accept private equity? What does that even mean? Especially again, if this is like kind of a founder led firm and you've built it yourself sort of concept, like that's a big leap I can imagine for people who are thinking about this decision. And similarly, I would imagine you have to do some of the same type of thinking when you're sort of exploring acquisitions.
[00:24:31] Stacy Havener: So what has that been like? Because you have made a couple key acquisitions along the way. Other firms that have merged into Ultimis. What was that process like? Was it still kind of that people first mentality? How did those kind of play out or what were the lessons maybe there?
[00:24:46] Gary Tenkman: Yeah. I mean, we've done a number of acquisitions.
[00:24:49] Gary Tenkman: Like I just hit my nine year anniversary with Ultimis.
[00:24:52] Stacy Havener: Congrats.
[00:24:53] Gary Tenkman: Oh, how many have we done? I think we've done six or something like that. So, you know, I think that, you know, I'm always just trying to [00:25:00] step back and look at, and our focus has, um, historically been really on the U S and making sure that we can kind of provide all the back office services that somebody wanted to launch a fund could possibly need.
[00:25:12] Gary Tenkman: And so, you know, one is I was always looking at. Capability, and then I think, too, I was looking at, are there, is there opportunities to drive scale? You know, I think that, you know, when I joined ultimates, our opportunity to kind of compete at, you know, with a 50, 100Billion dollar asset manager just wasn't there because we didn't have the scale to give folks a level of comfort.
[00:25:35] Gary Tenkman: But the 3rd piece was like, the cultural fit, like, it's great if. Okay, it checks a box from, hey, it's a service or product that you need to, maybe it gives you scale. If it doesn't give you the 1st 1, I mean, culturally, it has to be aligned. And, you know, I think that, you know, I feel like all the, you know, we've got a lot of senior management from all the acquisitions that we've done that are still with the firm, because I think that we [00:26:00] made sure that the acquisitions we pursued hard were once where the cultures were going to align.
[00:26:05] Gary Tenkman: And that's really, really important from my perspective.
[00:26:08] Stacy Havener: I agree with you. I think especially in the space, and we won't name names, but there have been some other firms and similar businesses where the mergers and acquisitions as those firms have scaled have not gone as well, and I think it shows at the end of the day that this is still a people business, right?
[00:26:26] Stacy Havener: Because the problems that I would hear sort of sitting not in the middle of anything were more around client service. Like it was never people complaining about tech or capability or sort of product offering. The hard part in those mergers and acquisitions seem to be around the people.
[00:26:45] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I mean, a lot of the other acquisitions I've seen and I kind of put them in two buckets, you know, there's public and then there's the private side.
[00:26:53] Gary Tenkman: I think definitely on the public side. What I've seen is when there's been acquisitions over the years is that the focus has [00:27:00] been largely on let's drive costs out. And even if there isn't an acquisition, that's been kind of the M. O. It's like, let's continue to try and drive costs out. Yeah. And that's, you know, put us in a position where, you know, we, we invest in technology and our talent and, you know, we've been winning in the market over the past nine years, but particularly the past three years, it's a lot of the investments we've made over the past five years have come forward.
[00:27:26] Gary Tenkman: I mean, three years ago, we really didn't do ETFs at all. And now we're, we have the second most ETF sponsors that we service.
[00:27:34] Stacy Havener: Wow. I didn't know that had grown that much. That's amazing.
[00:27:37] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I mean, it's a big piece of our business and retail alts is, as I'm sure you know, is a big piece of business for us and we have a lot of opportunities, but we're also collecting market share from competitors where they've kind of taken the eye off the ball and the client service, like you mentioned, you know, we still have to be competitive from a price perspective.
[00:27:56] Gary Tenkman: So we try and leverage technology to be as efficient as we can [00:28:00] and try and be smart about that. But we have great people and that's helps really. Take things over the top when you can say I have great technology, but then also you've got a great team you can put in front of a prospect.
[00:28:10] Stacy Havener: You need both, right?
[00:28:11] Stacy Havener: You need that new school stuff, but you need the old school as well. And to me, old school is all about like, you know, people doing business with people. And we heard Bob talk about it and we've heard you talk about it. And I know you've won so many awards. But I believe a lot of the awards you win sort of year in and year out are about being one of the best places to work.
[00:28:31] Stacy Havener: And I think that speaks to the, I mean, you're recognized for that.
[00:28:35] Gary Tenkman: Yeah. I mean, I think that, um, I think that, uh, yeah, we are recognized for that. We try and make it a great place to work. We try and have as open communication as we can. I mean, I think, My historical frustrations prior to Ultimis a lot of times was just not, not knowing what's going on.
[00:28:51] Gary Tenkman: And I, you know, I try and I try and work with the executive team to make sure they have what they need to be able to communicate to their teams. Like, well, what's going on? What's going on at Ultimis? I mean, [00:29:00] we're almost 1000 people now. So it's not like, hey, I can walk down the hall and just talk to somebody.
[00:29:05] Gary Tenkman: We really have to have the executive team and the senior management team when we do regular huddles and kind of ensure everybody knows what's going on. So they can inform their teams and people feel like they know what's going on in the business.
[00:29:18] Stacy Havener: That's awesome. So now I'm curious, the next phase of growth.
[00:29:23] Stacy Havener: So you're nine, you're nine, right? At Ultimis. Like, what is the next phase? Like, how, how do you grow from here? I mean, is it diversification of product? Like you mentioned DTFs, like, are there certain products you want to be able to specialize in or develop expertise in? Are you going to look given your Background in overseas, are you going to look to expand globally?
[00:29:45] Stacy Havener: Like what, what does growth look like for Ultimis from here and for you?
[00:29:48] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few different things that we're looking at. I mean, you know, on the public side, there's not a lot of firms to acquire, but we'd always be interested in, you know, if it was the right fit and we could drive scale, I think it could [00:30:00] potentially be pretty interesting.
[00:30:01] Gary Tenkman: But I think that we've made investments in retail, all it's in technology and people and same with ETFs. And now we've done the same with. Middle office. So, you know, if people are doing institutional SMAs and they need the stuff done, that's kind of post trade execution out to reporting to your clients, like we can do all that.
[00:30:19] Gary Tenkman: Uh, we were just hearing that from a lot of our clients. We've really ramped that up over the past nine months. So that's an area where we're making investment. I'd say on the private side, you know, we're continuing to look at building out like middle office capabilities around credit. But we have a really strong offering in the private markets and a strong offering from a hedge fund perspective.
[00:30:39] Gary Tenkman: So we feel pretty good there. You know, potentially, maybe working as a trustee at some point from a perspective could be interesting for us, but I think the bigger play long term is just. Diversifying and, you know, having some capabilities in Europe and Asia. So that, you know, if an asset manager in the U S needs to do something offshore that they can do it with Ultimis versus going [00:31:00] somewhere else.
[00:31:00] Gary Tenkman: But there's a lot of opportunities for us. I mean, I think that we don't want to become so, I mean, I look at it kind of in, you know, there's kind of three things I think as a business that you can probably be really good at one and maybe okay at the second, but probably not very good at the other. And I think.
[00:31:16] Gary Tenkman: You know, well, 1 is low cost, like we're not going to be the lowest cost, but we're not going to be super expensive. 2 is you can have a ton of products. So you think of a custody bank. I mean, they can sell you all kinds of stuff, right? We can't do that. I mean, I'm not doing sec lending. I'm not doing lines of credit.
[00:31:33] Gary Tenkman: You know, obviously not a custodian, but we can plug somebody in. They can do all that. So it's not really a handicap that we don't have that, but when you do all those things, then, you know, the fund admin piece starts to get watered down. Like, what is it? You know, is it really what you do or is it just something else you do?
[00:31:50] Gary Tenkman: And then third is client service. And so that's really where we were betting, you know, we're making our bet is around client service and trying to differentiate ourselves in the marketplace.
[00:31:58] Stacy Havener: So interesting, [00:32:00] because I talk a lot about sort of owning, you know, what you're uniquely good at what niching down being a specialist in something.
[00:32:09] Stacy Havener: And I love hearing that even at your size and scale, you still think about that. So do you think you can still be a specialist? And really, I mean, you already have scaled, but that you can maintain that ability to specialize in something and continue to grow from where you are today. Like, you don't have to be a generalist.
[00:32:27] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I think that we can continue to do that. I mean, you know, we do have, you know, certain teams that focus on ETF. So we build in some specialization and we try and work where we can to rotate people in there who may be from a career opportunity. You want to see those things. But I think we can still provide good service, even though we're getting.
[00:32:46] Gary Tenkman: Even though we're getting larger, I mean, that's just because you're large in and of itself doesn't mean you can't do a great job for your clients and you, you don't care about your clients. It's about making sure we bring the right people into the organization and they understand that that's who we are that, [00:33:00] you know, when people call you call back the same day, you don't call back 2 days later or whatever.
[00:33:05] Gary Tenkman: Simple things like that, that, you know, we talk about as an organization that are really important. And I think you can do that at a larger size. Now, what's not going to happen, like when I first joined Ultimis is that. Bob may actually be doing some work on a particular client as CEO. Like that can't happen anymore.
[00:33:22] Gary Tenkman: Right.
[00:33:22] Stacy Havener: Right.
[00:33:23] Gary Tenkman: I know a lot of our clients and have relationships and know what's going on, but I can't go to all the board meetings. It's just not possible. And I mean, that's probably one of the biggest changes is that we have to have an organization where we have really great people and that we're scalable and they can do that work.
[00:33:40] Gary Tenkman: They can handle the clients themselves. They don't need the CEO to be involved because we've got really good people.
[00:33:46] Stacy Havener: I think that's very well said, and it's hard, probably, for the clients who've been with you the longest, maybe, to undergo that change, but I think if you build this. a business with culture at the center, which you have [00:34:00] done, right?
[00:34:00] Stacy Havener: That's been the roots of Ultima since the beginning. Then the people are all sort of aligned around those strong values. And one of the books I read talked about the fact that like values should actually tell you how to act. Values aren't just like jazzy little sayings you hang on the wall. Remember that?
[00:34:20] Stacy Havener: That was those old posters would be like some really pretty like beach scene and some quote, and it'd be like, Those are our values, you know, and that's not it. Like, they should tell you how to act. So I love when you said, like, when someone calls you, call them back within a timely Manor don't email them if they called you pick up the phone and call them back like value should tell you how to behave And that's not easy to do and I think you've done a very very good job of that everyone in your organization has
[00:34:49] Gary Tenkman: Well, it's yeah, I mean, I've got a great team.
[00:34:51] Gary Tenkman: I can't take credit for it They've kind of all bought in and it really Just kind of taken it and they work on it every week. We have management huddles and we talk about [00:35:00] our culture every week and what's important to us as an organization. We try and spend 5 or 10 minutes on that, like in our weekly huddles.
[00:35:07] Stacy Havener: I love that. One of the podcast interviews I did was James Fletcher, I believe. He's an asset manager, emerging manager actually, at a firm called Ethos. And he was saying that from an investment process perspective, one of his differentiators, one of Ethos differentiators is that they actually believe that culture is an alpha generator.
[00:35:28] Stacy Havener: Like when they go out and sort of diligence companies to invest in, they actually analyze culture and there have been studies to back that up. So I think that's just an amazing kind of intersection of something that you'd think would be so quantitative, i. e. you know, return being sourced from something that's so incredibly qualitative.
[00:35:48] Gary Tenkman: Absolutely.
[00:35:50] Stacy Havener: Okay, so you ready for a little, uh, a little, it's not really a lightning round because we don't have to be lightning about the whole thing, but I like to end every podcast [00:36:00] conversation with a version of Proust's questionnaire, and it's, I guess I've always loved James Lipton's Inside the Actor's Studio, if you ever watched that show back in the day where he would interview people and he would end with some questions, and so I have a version of these.
[00:36:16] Gary Tenkman: I have to admit, I like Will Ferrell's version better, so.
[00:36:19] Stacy Havener: Wait, is it true? There's a new Inside the Actors Studio?
[00:36:24] Gary Tenkman: No, no, he used to do an imitation of James Lipton on Saturday Night Live. I
[00:36:31] Stacy Havener: was like, time out. If I did not know, yes, he did. You are like one of the only people who knows who James Lipton is.
[00:36:38] Gary Tenkman: He's so dramatic though.
[00:36:40] Stacy Havener: So dramatic.
[00:36:41] Gary Tenkman: I would just watch him and laugh at the way he asked the questions.
[00:36:44] Stacy Havener: It was so dramatic. I fell for it. I was in. I was in on it. Okay. All right. So the first one is what book inspires you and it does not have to be a business book.
[00:36:58] Gary Tenkman: So I would say there's two books. I [00:37:00] don't know the authors of either of them though.
[00:37:02] Gary Tenkman: So one, I'm kind of reading right now and that's why I'm going to talk about it to a trustee. I went to dinner with some trustees and one of them mentioned this to me. So I have, I have a 13 year old, 15 year old daughters and they're just a handful. I'll just tell you that much.
[00:37:16] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I was just going to say, nobody could see your face, but I saw your face as you said it.
[00:37:20] Stacy Havener: Yes.
[00:37:20] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, but there's a book called, um, I want to say, get out of my life, but first drive Sheryl and me to the mall. And so I got it on Amazon. Like as I was walking out of the dinner, I just clicked on it. I mean, that's the best thing about Amazon is like, I immediately ordered it. And so I take it on planes with me and it just gives me hope.
[00:37:40] Gary Tenkman: Cause when I read it, I'm like, well, I guess everybody's dealing with this and maybe I'm not doing a bad job after all.
[00:37:47] Stacy Havener: There you go.
[00:37:48] Gary Tenkman: It just, uh, kind of made me feel better about my parenting skills. So
[00:37:52] Stacy Havener: I love it. That's a great one. And as a former 13 and 15 year old girl, I can tell you that we get nicer.
[00:37:59] Gary Tenkman: Yeah. [00:38:00] Yeah. Well, that's what they say. We'll see. We'll see. I'm going to, I'm going to miss the battle right now. So,
[00:38:06] Stacy Havener: and then you have a second one.
[00:38:07] Gary Tenkman: Yeah. The second one is factfulness and. There's a lot of tables in, in this and the juxta, the whole book is really like, if you think about opening the wall street journal, financial times, new york times on a daily basis, like you really, at least for me, like sometimes I want to jump out the window cause it seems like every story is terrible, but this basically showed, you know, all these things that are so much better now.
[00:38:36] Gary Tenkman: Then they were whatever, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. You know, whether it be just infant mortality, whether it be like people coming from, you know, completely poor to a, now they're middle class, just all these different kinds of stats to just said, like,
[00:38:53] Stacy Havener: fascinating,
[00:38:54] Gary Tenkman: by every kind of measure that you can really look at the world.
[00:38:57] Gary Tenkman: We're like in such a better place than we've ever [00:39:00] been in the history of humankind. But when you read the newspaper, you think it's the end of the world tomorrow. There's a lot of charts to get through, but in like, when you read it, you kind of feel a little bit better about everything. And, you know, that's, I'm optimistic about the future and, you know, and I'm really excited about the future and about the United States, about Ultimis.
[00:39:20] Gary Tenkman: And I think when I read that, I get even more, more pumped up about it. So.
[00:39:24] Stacy Havener: I love that. Okay, that's great. So we'll put those two books in the show notes. So we're going to take it from books to places. So what place inspires you or what's your happy place?
[00:39:37] Gary Tenkman: You know, I would say right now, if like my whole family's around and we can have dinner together.
[00:39:41] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:39:43] Gary Tenkman: And, uh, we're not fighting. That's my happy place. Well, I mean, look, my wife's got a very good sense of humor. And my kids both have a pretty good sense of humor. And when we have a really good time, we're all laughing. That's my happy place. Like, when that's going on.
[00:39:58] Stacy Havener: I love [00:40:00] that. Yes, it's the place and the vibe, isn't it?
[00:40:03] Stacy Havener: I love that. That's great. Okay, so now we're going to pretend, well this, I don't want to have you break out in a cold sweat here, but I'm going to put you in a stadium. You're going to walk out onto a stage in front of thousands of adoring, Ultimis and Gary Tankman fans. Don't think about the fact that you have to present to them.
[00:40:24] Stacy Havener: Just leave that to the side for a second. Yeah
[00:40:26] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, exactly
[00:40:27] Stacy Havener: And before you take the stage, they're gonna play a song to get the crowd amped up and it's like your hype song So what's that walkout anthem?
[00:40:35] Gary Tenkman: Hmm, it probably should be like late 80s, early 90s rap, but
[00:40:39] Stacy Havener: I'm there.
[00:40:42] Gary Tenkman: I'm trying to be a little bit more contemplating.
[00:40:44] Gary Tenkman: I'd probably do blinding lights by the weekend. I think so.
[00:40:47] Stacy Havener: You're picking a current song?
[00:40:48] Gary Tenkman: Yeah.
[00:40:49] Stacy Havener: But what if you did had to pick 80s or 90s rap? What if that's all they had that day at the stadium?
[00:40:56] Gary Tenkman: There's so many good songs. I don't have one [00:41:00] that's jumping out at me right now, but
[00:41:01] Stacy Havener: I mean, are we going like Notorious B.
[00:41:03] Stacy Havener: I. G.?
[00:41:04] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I mean, I was kind of like, Hypnotize was in my head for a minute there.
[00:41:08] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I mean, Hypnotize is a great hype song.
[00:41:11] Gary Tenkman: Yeah, I mean, something like that would probably be up my alley.
[00:41:15] Stacy Havener: Okay, I'm there. One of my all time faves. Okay, what profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
[00:41:22] Gary Tenkman: It's really hard.
[00:41:23] Gary Tenkman: I don't know. I mean, I like what I'm doing right now. Um, I think maybe being an investor in private company, like somehow involved in investing in private companies would be kind of interesting for me to do.
[00:41:35] Stacy Havener: That would be so cool.
[00:41:36] Gary Tenkman: And another stage of my career, I think that that would be fun, you know, get to know people and
[00:41:41] Stacy Havener: yeah,
[00:41:41] Gary Tenkman: maybe help people along from the things that I've learned through my career.
[00:41:45] Gary Tenkman: That would be pretty interesting from my perspective.
[00:41:47] Stacy Havener: I love that. I relate to that very much. Okay. Flip side. What profession would you not like to do? Okay.
[00:41:55] Gary Tenkman: I wouldn't want to be a lawyer.
[00:41:56] Stacy Havener: That's the first time someone said that. It's a great answer. [00:42:00] Because of the public speaking.
[00:42:01] Gary Tenkman: Oh, no, it has nothing to do with that.
[00:42:03] Gary Tenkman: I just, I mean, it's, I don't know. I mean, I'm a good fake lawyer. Like, trust me. I've had, I deal with lawyers all the time, but I don't want to be one.
[00:42:12] Stacy Havener: I love it. That's so good.
[00:42:15] Gary Tenkman: I like what I've learned. I've figured out how to scale it. So it's hard to scale being a lawyer.
[00:42:21] Stacy Havener: Okay. And last, what do you want people to say after you've retired or left the industry?
[00:42:29] Gary Tenkman: I mean, I'm hoping that there'll be a number of people that say, you know, he was a good boss. Maybe he was my best boss. He was a good leader. He tried to do the right thing. I mean, those are the kinds of things that I hope people Say about me, I mean, I try and be as communicative as I can with my directs and with the organization to let folks know what's going on.
[00:42:50] Gary Tenkman: Sometimes there's things you can't tell people about as, you know, but we just try and shine as much transparency on it. I hope people end up appreciating that. So, you know, I'll take that if I can [00:43:00] get it.
[00:43:00] Stacy Havener: I love that. And since I know some people who work for you, I can tell you that they're already saying it, Gary.
[00:43:07] Gary Tenkman: Oh, that's good to hear.
[00:43:09] Stacy Havener: Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. It was awesome. And as always, I'm cheering for you and everyone at Ultimis.
[00:43:17] Gary Tenkman: Well, thanks, Stacy. We appreciate it. We love working with you. So take care.
[00:43:22] Stacy Havener: All right. Thanks so much. You too.
[00:43:27] Stacy Havener: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products or to adopt any investment strategy. Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance.
[00:43:46] Stacy Havener: All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Havener or Havener Capital Partners.