Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This is a space to ask anything and get real answers for real life. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Tammy Brown:Hey, everybody. Welcome back to this season of the debrief. We have had a break
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yes.
Tammy Brown:From hot second. We've done a bit of traveling. Where have we gone recently? We've gone a few places. Yep.
Tammy Brown:Overseas, we got to go see some churches out there and get super excited. But let's get to what we've really loved is this new season with our grandson.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah. That's been great.
Tammy Brown:As you guys know. So we have been doing lots of planning, some traveling for work, but we are super excited to get into today's episode. And it is Halloween week.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yes.
Tammy Brown:I'm sort of part of what I'm finding online to be this new club that's like an I don't care club. They say women in their fifties get into. And this month, what everybody's doing is talking about how they're not decorating anymore. Like, don't care that it's holidays. I'm not decorating.
Tammy Brown:This is the first year of our entire life that I have not decorated for Halloween, which has been super freeing for me actually because I don't have to set it up or clean it up.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Does that mean I get to throw away some of the stuff in our closet? Not our closet, our garage.
Tammy Brown:I knew what you meant.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:We don't keep Halloween stuff in the closet.
Tammy Brown:That is weird. That's that's where I'm at. Like, I don't care about decorating as much as I want
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:to before.
Tammy Brown:No. You haven't.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:But I married too. I set it up and tear
Tammy Brown:it down. You have appreciated it, though. So anyhow, on that note, with it being Halloween, we actually have some questions in regards to, which I think Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:But every year.
Tammy Brown:Super fantastic. We're gonna get into this first one from Holland. This one comes off Instagram, which we super appreciate. Is a way for you guys to write in questions.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So Holland the country or Holland the person?
Tammy Brown:Holland the person. Wait. I don't
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:The person?
Tammy Brown:No. The person. I'm thinking. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yes.
Tammy Brown:I would've been excited either way. Holland is a beautiful name. Says this, your thoughts on Halloween and how to navigate that. So the bible and your thoughts on Halloween. We have recently been convicted not to celebrate, but we have three children as of now.
Tammy Brown:And our plan is to allow innocent costumes, no decorating the house. We just got into. No scary movies, but we're not sure whether or not to allow trick or treating. I'm also fearful of reports about hexes and spells being placed on candy aisles. Thoughts on this?
Tammy Brown:Thoughts on decorating for Halloween, celebrating it, even in the innocent?
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah. So I mean, I've been I've been consistent on this for a long time. So what I would say is two two rules. I mean, we just had had to ask a guy to leave our church last weekend who wanted to rebuke me in the name of the Holy Spirit because we allow the celebration of Halloween at our church, and it's not the celebration of Halloween, it's called Candy Rush, and we encourage kids to bring costumes. So what I would say is it's the last holiday in our culture where we interact with our neighbors, And so we have multiple commands here.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So one is not to practice witchcraft, which I would say, don't do that, that's bad. And the other is to love your neighbor as yourself. And most of our listeners don't know their neighbors, don't talk to their neighbors, never interact with their neighbors. And if this is the one night of the year where your neighbors are gonna come knock on your door and introduce their kids to you, and you get the opportunity to go, oh, you're so cute. Oh, you're so amazing.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And meet them, hey, Fred, you know, hey, Sandra, whatever their names are, this is a great opportunity for you to actually live out one of the commands of Jesus, and that's to love your neighbor as yourself. So two parameters for costumes. One, ladies, this is not the night as a Christian where you get to be slutty. That's just not, that is not what you I should think a lot of women dress very provocatively, I think that's unfortunate, that's obviously sinful. The other thing is, I would say don't dress up as evil, like, you know, we're not do that.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:I mean, there's just so many amazing things where you can dress up and you can be fun and you can be creative. And it's a great opportunity to exercise really a part of what's important in a child's life, which is fantasy. I think that's an important part of a child's development,
Tammy Brown:their superheroes and or professions that they aspire It's it's a fun way to yeah.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah. And, you know, there there was a Christian writer. He's been dead now for a couple years, but I love his books, and they are the story of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy, and he really argues in those books for the use of magic as good as a part of fantasy. And so Gandalf the Grey is a wizard who is good, and there are magicians, obviously, that are evil. And so, you know, he argued passionately that it was important for Christians to exercise the right to fantasy, that you can utilize fantasy in order to communicate the truth of good versus evil, which is a real battle going on in a way that draws people who are opposed to Christianity in.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So you have great minds like Tolkien who says that it's okay to write about these things and engage in this. You also have C. S. Lewis who wrote The Chronicles of Narnia. We have a wicked witch in that.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:We have magic. We have talking animals. We have fantasy, and it paints a picture and creates a spiritual truth. Then you have Harry Potter and people lose their minds with that. But Harry Potter clearly identified good versus evil.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:There were some things that I don't agree with, you know, obviously about Harry Potter, and there were some things where when you when our kids were little, we're like, that's a little dark. Mhmm. But there is darkness, there is evil, and there are bad things in the world, and there's opportunities to talk to kids about that. So I'm not opposed to fantasy. I'm not opposed to all, you know, things that are written about witchcraft because C.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:S. Lewis did it, J. R. Tolkien did it, these are solid Christians who have changed the world for good, who love Jesus and follow him. Having said that, I think we can go too far.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So what I would say is Christians shouldn't celebrate Halloween, like that's not our goal, like we celebrate Jesus, we worship Jesus, but we can participate in a holiday where we engage with our neighbors, and I think that's really, really important, and I think it's okay to pass out candy and do that. So what she says, I'm also fearful over reports about hexes and spells being placed on candy. You know, what I would say is those things have no power whatsoever, they just don't.
Tammy Brown:That's good.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:If you're a born again Christian, the blood of Jesus protects you from all that kind of stuff. That's just, that is silliness. What I would say is that that stuff can't have an impact on you at all. If hexes and spells worked, the gospel would have never advanced. It just wouldn't have advanced.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Christianity, you know, you and I, excuse me, are both Irish and Scottish and English, and so our heritage is pagan, Completely pagan, witchcraft based, sacrificing children to gods.
Tammy Brown:So there's that.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You know, I mean, people were just crazy on the island of what was known as the British Isles. I mean, we were considered like the moon to the Romans, weird, bizarre savages. I mean, that's what they would have considered us. You know, our Scottish relatives painted themselves themselves blue and ran and attacked the Romans naked. So we were wild.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:The Gospel advances into these cultures of witchcraft, of wizardry, of hexes, of curses, and these Catholic priests come armed with one thing, the gospel. Mhmm. And paganism falls. It happens with the Vikings. It happens with the Franks that we call the French.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:It happens with the Germans. Time and time again, Christianity goes up against witchcraft, and witchcraft, wizardry, warlocks, paganism collapses because Jesus Christ is Lord of all. He's the king of all. And so nowadays, you go from that a thousand years ago, a priest marching into the center of pagan worship, and now we have Christians afraid to walk down the candy aisle at Walgreens. You don't know Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You don't know the risen Jesus that I know. You don't need to be afraid. It's the same thing, you know, when we get a phone call from the church and somebody's like, my house is haunted, there's a demon, there's a spirit. You know, I'm like, great, let's go, I'll go. You know, I'm the real Ghostbusters.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:I serve the real Jesus. I serve the real risen King. I'm afraid of none of that stuff because I walk with Jesus. And so what I would encourage you guys is to walk with Jesus. This is not an opportunity, like I said, be slutty or satanic, Either of those things.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You know, don't participate like I wouldn't play a Ouija board. Wouldn't participate in a seance. I mean, stuff like that. Get out of there. That like if someone is, excuse me, actually doing witchcraft, that's when you you you you get out of there.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You don't participate in that as a Christian. That is not something that that you can be a part of, but be being, you know, having your neighbors over, inviting friends over, inviting family members over. I mean, throw a party and say, hey, no slutty costumes, no scary costumes. That's important. We had a guy show up to church in a costume, and we asked him to leave.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:We said that that that is not an appropriate costume for here. And and the guy was wearing a scary costume. And he thought we were weird. I was like, no, no, no, no. We're not the weird ones.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You're the one that's a little off here. This is an inappropriate costume in the house of God. And so many people, you know, brought their you know, kids to church, brought their neighbors to church in their little cute costumes, and they were dressed up. And to me, it's a win to get people to church. Kids don't go to church, families don't go to church, families have no idea what the gospel is about.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And so for me, it's an opportunity to reach our community, invite kids to our church, but let's go back to what she said, Tammy. She said, I've been recently convicted not to celebrate.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm, that's what I was gonna say.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:If the Holy Spirit is convicting you, maybe there's something haunted in your past, and maybe there's something in your present, and the Holy Spirit is saying this is not for you. This is where You Christians get can have a personal conviction that doesn't need to be a corporate conviction. So in other words, you know, when I was a teenager, I like to look at magazines with girls with no clothes. That created an issue with lust for me in my mind. And so for me, certain beaches, certain places, those things are off limits because of some things I allowed in my life as a young man, I've had to set up parameters.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You and I were just talking about a show that we watch where I mentioned a sex scene and we watched the show like years ago. You're like, I don't remember that. That's because that's not Tammy's issue.
Tammy Brown:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:I remember it and I said, yeah, that that wasn't for me. I stopped watching
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:When that scene happened. Tammy doesn't even remember the scene. I remember it vividly Mhmm. Because that's my issue from childhood. Was exposed to those things.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So if you grew up in a home where your mom was a witch, you grew up in a cult where they practice witchcraft, you grew up in a family where they sacrifice things to the devil on Halloween. What I would say is you just tell people that's not good for me, this is not safe for me, this is something that the
Tammy Brown:Holy Don't be Spirit afraid to have that conviction.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah, the Holy Spirit is telling you this is not for me. In the same way, you you and I, we were in Italy with the church, we were in Rome and we went to a winery. Do you remember that? And so it was beautiful. They took us down to a cave where Catholics have made wine for a thousand years, but we had two alcoholics in our
Tammy Brown:group. And
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:they came up to me and they said, this makes me feel very uncomfortable because my church is putting me in a situation where I feel tempted. And so you remember what I did, I went out with them and sat with them while everybody else partook of wine and I said, hey, I would never want you to do that, you know. And I sat with them because I'm not, you know, a big drinker anyways, but I felt bad because this was an issue for them because of their past and they need to abstain. 100%. So if the Lord's leading you in this, and it's the Lord Holland, I don't know if it's the Lord or not, I would say you need to listen, and you just need to share that with Christians.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You don't need to get in an argument with everybody for all time that no Christian anywhere should participate in something that the Holy Spirit is telling you is off limits for you. We all are a part of the body of Christ and we're also autonomous Christians. Now we have to be careful with that because there are some things that the Bible clearly speaks to that we're not to participate. Like I said, sacrificing, like if they're like, if you went to a party and they're like, we're now going to sacrifice this meat to this demon, like get out of there. The Bible clearly says that is not for you.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And can we just talk about your friends? They're a little weird. That's weird. But we can have individual conviction and we can have corporate grace. What Christians love to do is judge other Christians because that costs me nothing.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:If I have the conviction about your life, I don't have to do anything about it, I just get to be judgmental. And the greatest enemy in every Christian's life is not Satan, it's self righteousness. That's the enemy. It wasn't Satan that put Jesus on the cross, it was self righteousness. The Jewish leaders thought they knew better than Jesus what was good, and so they killed him.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:They murdered him. And, know, Satan recognized Jesus, demons recognized Jesus, self righteous religious people missed Jesus. And so I would just say that again, and that's why maybe you don't go to church, you've had a bad experience with Christians, it's because if somebody's really received grace, they can give it. If someone can't give grace, I always wonder, have you And received self righteous people, that's the number one indicator to me, they don't truly know Jesus. So that's what I would say, Holland, it's a great question, I'm praying for you.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And just know, there's gonna be good Christians, good pastors, good churches that disagree with what I'm saying, and they're within their rights to interpret the word of God that way. I'm doing the best I can. You and I talk about this all the time. Here's what makes Sandals different, and actually I want to do a series on this because my wife encouraged me. Most churches are Christians that gather together and they support missions.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Sandals Church is different. We don't want to be Christians that do missions, we want to be Christians that become missionaries, and in order to do that, we have to reach the communities in which we live, and that makes Christians very uncomfortable. Most Christians want to go to a church that's a fort, that protects all of their ideas and makes them feel very safe. We don't want to build a fort at Sandals Church, we want to be on mission for Jesus, and Halloween is a great opportunity to meet your neighbors. And so I say, celebrate it and invite your neighbors, have them over, be nice, share that you're a Christian, share where you go to church.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You can't love a neighbor you don't know and you haven't met. So it's the best opportunity. That's my opinion. They are great people.
Tammy Brown:Especially in a world right now where we're so disconnected. Holland, one of the things I am just so impressed by is as a mom, you're thinking through this. Yeah. You're not just letting culture dictate to you. You're actually thinking, wait.
Tammy Brown:What do I believe about this? What do I feel like is best for this? And what is the Holy Spirit convicting me on? And I think that that is such like fantastic mama bear vibes. And I'm super proud of you for that.
Tammy Brown:My 2¢ as a mom would be that if you do decide we're not going to participate, that you think through what is a tradition that you can implement in the place of for your family. Because if your kids are seeing everyone around them participating in something, what I have seen happen in some Christian families is when we say everything out there is bad, and I'm not saying I don't disagree with questioning Halloween or not, they feel like it they're almost more curious about what they're not allowed to partake in that everyone else is. And it can create a resentment towards our faith, a resentment towards the church, towards family. And so what I have seen work in some people that I really admire is, what are we doing in place? Are we saying, okay.
Tammy Brown:On that night, here's what our family does. We do popcorn and movie night and get to dress up as our favorite whatever. You don't have to incorporate dress up into it. But what is the thing that your kids can feel like is the special thing in that season instead of creating a we're missing out on something where we don't get that because it's bad, we're good. I would just encourage you to think about what could be if you if you choose out of a good conviction for yourself and with God that you're not going to do that, what will you do with your family, for your kids so that they can feel like they're a part of something special, to look forward to something special.
Tammy Brown:There are so many ideas out there that I could go through a list of that I would research of. Instead of just saying we don't get this, to shift that to here's what we get and and the buying of why and making it very special as well is my my 2¢ one that as a mom and we actually which I won't get into, but we actually have a pretty strong conviction similarly about Santa and Christmas and what we did with our family, which maybe we'll talk about when it's In another episode. Closer to Christmas. But we had to wrestle with a very similar thing where I had to do exactly what I'm encouraging you to do, Holland. And so I I feel proud of you as a mom for questioning this and really coming to terms with it.
Tammy Brown:So thank you for that question. Alright. We're gonna dive into another question in the spirit of the season. This one comes from anonymous.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yes. Annie Moss.
Tammy Brown:And it says, a friend of mine told me that she's a witch. And on Halloween, she speaks to ancestors that are on the other side now. I have never had a friend like this, and I'm currently furthering my faith and I feel like she is a bad tree that won't bear good fruit. I don't wanna put myself in tempting situations or surround myself with people who don't want to know about Jesus. At the same time, I feel like it's my job to share about him.
Tammy Brown:I would love your thoughts on this and even some scripture to back that up. This is such a great question because it is true of that line that we walk of believers is like, what are we engaging in and who are we surrounding ourselves with?
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:We always hear like, look at the five people that you're with most and that's who you'll become.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Don't be around
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:People like you don't wanna become like. Yeah. But then when we live on mission
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:We need to interact with people that we don't want to become like because we want to show them there's another way. Right. I think this is pulling that out. Yeah. It's just on the topic of Halloween, and then we're mixing in speaking to the dead and whatnot.
Tammy Brown:So take that one away, Pastor Matt.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:I think this is a great question. So the bible doesn't specifically speak to Halloween, but it does speak to witchcraft and those who practice witchcraft and specifically those who practice necromancy speaking to the dead. So there are three specific verses that I'm aware of, and there may be more, but I'm thinking about three specific verses in the Bible that say, don't do that, and listen to this, Annie, don't hang out with people who do that. So this is different, and that's why it goes back to the next question. Let's say you go to a Halloween party, and you didn't know that your friend was a witch, and you show up and they start doing this, you need to just say, hey, look, this is not in alignment with what I believe about God, thank you so much for inviting me to your party, I wish you well, but I can't participate in this.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:You just, you know, you don't need to put them down, you don't need to insult them, and hopefully that would lead to conversations with some other who were like, hey, that really made me feel uncomfortable, I didn't know about that, and then you have an opportunity to share, you know, your faith in Jesus. But what I would say is on Halloween, she speaks to ancestors on first of all, she's a witch. So, you know, there are women that I've met who identify as witch. Some of these women are just it's kind of like this feminism, empowerment, kind of anti man thing. And then I've met women who are like, they're a witch, like they're doing spells and hexes, and they're quoting and doing these chants and doing all stuff like that.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So it sounds to me like this woman is legitimate in her faith, let's call it that, and on Halloween she speaks to Answers, and so this is why Christians would protest that we shouldn't celebrate Halloween, because it is a night for Satanists, for people who practice witchcraft, who engage in their worship, and what I would say is I don't care what the devil does any day of the week. Jesus rose, he won, he's victorious, I'm with him. I'm not going to celebrate or worship or practice witchcraft, that is the thing. I'm not going to hang out with people while they practice witchcraft. I'm not going to be a part of that.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So what I would say is, I would just say as your friend, I would just say, hey, can share some concerns with you? And so it says here that she speaks to ancestors on the other side. Here's what I would say is, she has no idea who she's talking to on the other side. She has no idea who's on the other side of that phone. So she's calling the other side, and this is why I believe the Bible specifically speaks against necromancy, speaking to those who are on the other side because you don't know who you're talking to.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And and I know a lot of people get a bunch of great comfort because they go to a fortune teller, it feels so good to hear from grandma, your mom, your sister, your aunt who's passed, but there's this story in Luke 18, and it is a parable, but I think it's important to know how Jesus speaks definitively on this. In Luke 18, there's a rich man and Lazarus and they both die. Lazarus is, excuse me, it's not Lazarus, what's his name? Is it Lazarus? You guys have to look at Luke 18, if you guys can pull it up.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah, I think it's Lazarus. Sorry, there's two Lazarus, there's one in John 11 and there's one in Luke 18, popular name, But Lazarus dies and is carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham and he's comforted. The rich man is taken to a place of suffering. And what he says in the parable is please go back and warn my ancestors, my family about where I am. Jesus, this is what Jesus says, you cannot go there and they cannot come here, you cannot communicate with them.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So that's one of the things that Jesus teaches in that parable is there's not communication that's there. So I would assume that Jesus would not mislead us. I think that he is the truth and the way and the life. So, excuse me, if Jesus says you can't talk to them, and the language that he uses is he says there is a great chasm separating us from them. So there's a barrier.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So if we can't talk to them, who are we talking to? Probably not your grandma. You're probably talking to a spirit, to a demon, something that is manipulating you and utilizing you. And here's the thing, demons have knowledge, evil spirits have knowledge, they have awareness, and I don't know what they know because they're wise, and I don't know what they know because you put it on Facebook. Like, I would assume that demons can look at the information that you're putting out there, Just like I just had this conversation with my parents.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:I would never call and ask for money. I would never say I'm in prison, can you please send 10,000 My kids would never call and ask you to send them money. They would talk to me first. And why is that? People manipulate the elderly and pretend to be something that they're not, and they have information about family members that causes the elderly to believe that and then they steal from them.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:It happens all the time. I believe these people should be locked up forever. You rob old people like, I don't like you. It's wrong. But I had to warn my parents about that.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And here's what I said, even if it sounds like me, mom.
Tammy Brown:Well, especially in the world of AI.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:In the world of AI. I said, even if it sounds like me, I don't ever want any money, don't need money, don't wanna borrow money. And so here's what I would say to you. Even if it sounds like your mom, your dad, even if it feels like your mom or your dad. If AI can manipulate me, I think the devil can manipulate you.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:He father is of all lies. And so what I would just say is, hey, as your friend, here's what the Bible says, cause a lot of witches use scripture. It's interesting, you know, they don't believe in the Lord it reveals, but oftentimes they believe in the power of the words in this book, right? And so sometimes spells and stuff like, you gotta remember, even when Satan tempts Jesus, you know, he doesn't quote the enneagram, he quotes scripture, right? Like, so I know, I just lost half our audience, like, my gosh.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So Satan can use and manipulate anything to manipulate people, and so I would just say, hey, as your friend, the Bible says that we shouldn't do this, and here's what my pastor said why. You don't know who you're talking to. Now, why do women become witches? This is, I can't speak for every woman or every witch. The women that I've met are seeking power.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:They want to feel powerful, they want to be strong, and I think that's a recipe for disaster in the spiritual world. The desire for power is a satanic desire. Jesus reveals he gave up all power, all authority to save us. So Jesus is not trying to collect power, He emptied Himself of power to save us. The devil is trying to collect power, amass an army to fight Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So I would just say right there, I would maybe ask, why did you become a witch? Let me hear your story, and then maybe share why you're a Christian and share why you're concerned for, I wouldn't judge her, I would be like, you know, that's wrong and then quote a Bible verse, I would just say, it really, really concerns me because as powerful as you believe yourself to be, the other side is a murky side. So all ancient cultures consider the realm of the dead a place of murkiness and darkness, and I think we've lost that. Like we want to believe in our current culture that we have this clarity, like it's four ks, like we can see on the other side, all ancient cultures understood the place of the dead, foggy, dark, mysterious. And we don't, in the ancient cultures, they all knew we don't know what's there.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And so what the Bible leads us is you don't know what's there and you don't know who it is. And so I would just say, be careful. So you said, I've never had a friend like this, me neither. So I'm currently furthering my faith and I feel like she's a bad tree that won't bear good fruit. I feel like that's true.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:She needs to be delivered. People like this that are truly witchcraft or warlords don't just need to be saved, they need to be delivered. It's a different thing because they've not just rejected Christ, they've invited an enemy spirit in. And so Jesus talks about this again, I think it's in Matthew 18, where he talks about the Pharisees doing deliverances and making people worse. So the spirit leaves, goes out into the desert, comes back with friends, and what Jesus says, the condition of the person is worse at the end than it was at the beginning, because you need deliverance and Jesus, need both.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So I don't wanna put myself in tempting situations, so if, Annie, I would ask, tempting is you here? I don't like, you're you're not tempted by witchcraft. I'm not tempted. So I I don't know if I'm reading into into that.
Tammy Brown:One thing that I'm thinking through for myself as you're talking about this is it's one thing to live in the confidence and without fear in who we are in Christ and him as our protector. So I I'm like having this idea about engaging with someone like that. It's not like it's contagious and you can catch it
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:If I'm in your presence. Right? Like, if if I'm with a witch, it I'm not going it's not going to rub off on me and I catch But at the same time, it is what are you inviting into our lives. And I think that you and I, over the years, have ministered to so many people that have cracked open windows and doors to things thinking that we can handle
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Things that we're we can't handle. Or they don't believe in things of the spirit world.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And so I just I wish you I would love for you to speak on why don't like, why do we have to be careful about what what we engage in on the other side? I mean, you've you've alluded to it with saying, you don't know that you're talking to your ancestor because a lot of the shows on TV are saying like, oh, but they really knew that this thing that only my grandma knew that she gave me blue scarf once. And she said, enjoy the blue scarf from the other side. It must have been my grandma. But I I think in so many things, it's like, what what are you inviting in?
Tammy Brown:So simply knowing someone who says they're a witch, you can't catch it like the cold.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:But at the same time, you can engage in things where you are inviting a demonic spirit. And I just think as Christians, we've gotten almost too callous to spirits, especially demonic
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And or in particular, demonic. I don't know how I would say that. Yeah. But, like and we invite things in that we we almost just feel like aren't a big deal. Like, we're we're not giving the weight of them that we ought.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah, I would say Satan's always looking for a way in. You know, I think it's okay to care for this person, love this person, and pray for this person, but nowhere in scripture are we called to be friends with wolves. We're just not. So my primary responsibility as the shepherd of this church is to protect our church from wolves. And when I sense that somebody's a wolf, I just had to say it this week, I mean, I think in twenty years I've kicked three people out of our church, and in all three cases, they were wolves.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And so I said to our security team this week, I said, this person cannot come back to our church. Like I've spoken to them personally, and here's what a wolf does. You know it's a wolf when they're trying to convince you to believe something else. So seekers are welcome at Sandals Church, people who are curious about the gospel, even an atheist. But if an atheist is coming here to tell people God is not real, and he's trying to convert us to atheism, then my job as the shepherd is to say you can't be here.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So what I would say is, is this friend trying to convert you? Is this friend trying to invite you in? That's when you have to say, you know what? Hey, this is not okay for me. You know, I'm not going to hang out with a bunch of friends that want to invite me to strip clubs, you know, that want to go to Vegas, know, and hang out with hookers.
Tammy Brown:That's Again? Thank That
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:is not something that, you know, I'm going to partake in. Now, I'll pray for those guys in church in the lobby, but I'm not going to participate with them. And so I think the boundary that you need to draw is this is a friend that you care for, this is not a friendship that you engage with. That's just what I would say, because they are engaging with things that could suck you in, so how could Satan suck you in? She could be less anxious than you are.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:She could seem more confident than you are. She could seem more sure of things than you are, and it starts messing with you. So like that's how fortune tellers draw you in, right? They have information that you don't have. And so what we all want is a map.
Tammy Brown:I was gonna say, are illusions of something you want.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Yeah, yeah. Jesus never offers a map, he's the guide. So fortune tellers offer a map, witchcraft offers a map, Jesus offers a guide. He is going to guide us from here to heaven, He's going to guide us through the life, through life, and how does He guide us? With His voice, with His teachings.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:And so what I would just say is, I don't like telling people not to have friends, this is an instance where I would say, if you to were pursue your relationship with Jesus, this is probably a friendship that won't survive. Now here's how you leave the door open. I love you, I appreciate you. If you're ever interested or this witchcraft thing doesn't work out, I'm here for you and you are more than welcome to come with me to church, but I am not going to participate with you in witchcraft. I believe it's wrong and I believe it's unsafe and dangerous for you.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Again, you have to appeal to love, not judgment. And so, because just arguing about, you know, whatever, I mean, you know, I've had witches that tell me, oh, well, this is older than Christianity, that doesn't make it true. It just doesn't, you know? What makes Jesus true is He rose from the dead, like that's like a, I don't know what you guys think, I think that's pretty good, like piece of evidence.
Tammy Brown:Yeah, that's good.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So I'll be praying for you. And again, here's the thing guys, we can disagree on what I've shared here, but we need to have personal conviction, but we need to have corporate grace, corporate grace. So on the issue of Halloween, I think it's something you can participate. Witchcraft is not something you can participate in. Talking to dead ancestors is not something that you can participate in.
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:So there are clear boundaries of stuff that we don't just get to do because we're saved by grace. The Bible is full of warnings. And so your kid dressing up like Luke Skywalker is not a problem, going to a seance, that's a problem. And we need to be able to discern as Christians the truth between those two statements, you know, so.
Tammy Brown:That's so good. Thank you so much for these answers, and thank you to all of you guys who have tuned in today. We have been on a bit of a hiatus to get a new studio space for us. So we wanna thank our team for the new studio space. And but because of that, we're a bit out of algorithm, I would say.
Tammy Brown:So if you like this episode, you could do us such a huge favor by liking it, subscribing to the show, but also leaving us comments. If you have questions on the show today, leave us a comment. If you know somebody that you think that this conversation could help, tag them in the comments for us, reach out to them. We're so grateful for the opportunity for you to send your questions in. We're so grateful to you, Matt, for
Pastor Matthew Steven Brown:Thank you.
Tammy Brown:Answering the hard questions, and we will see you next time.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.