Josh Jeffress: Principle at Design Anthology

Our latest episode of the NewyTechPeople Podcast features Josh Jeffress, Principle at Design Anthology.

Josh, a passionate innovator and industry veteran, shares his incredible journey from trade school to establishing a design powerhouse in the Hunter region. Discover his insights on:

* The importance of education beyond degrees
* The power of innovation through cross-pollination
* How relationships and partnerships drive success in tech
* The invaluable role of learning and embracing challenges

Join Josh as he reveals the secret to thriving in the fast-paced tech industry: a fusion of passion, adaptability, and a relentless pursuit of knowledge. Tune in for a thought-provoking and inspiring discussion that will ignite your curiosity and empower you to navigate the ever-evolving landscape of technology.

Creators & Guests

Host

James MacDonald

Host of the NTP Podcast | Director of NewyTechPeople

What is NTP Podcast?

Welcome to the NTP Podcast. Each episode highlights the incredible work of talented tech professionals in Australia. We chat with people who are at the top of their game to learn all about their craft—why they’re passionate about their work and what resources help power their success. By delving into their experiences, we gain insights into the constantly evolving tech scene, explore how it has changed, and see where it may be headed.

Welcome to another episode of the NewyTechPeople podcast. On today's episode we have Josh Jeffress. He is the director of design anthology and has been local to the Hunter region for many years here growing the business. Welcome, Josh. Thank you, mate. For those of our audience that don't know who you are or your background, give us a bit of an overview of, you know, your career today and design anthology. Yeah, so my career path before coming to Newcastle was more in the trade area. So I had a pretty interesting of childhood. My father was industrial arts teacher, so, and probably a very hands on, kind of practical kind of guy. So I was exposed to that at a very young age. Anything from metalwork to woodwork to welding. So that was really good. Went into a trade back in 93 doing what some people call advanced manufacturing. Back then we had CNC machines and some of them were tape driven, some of them were the latest and the greatest. So I got that, that exposure back in 93 doing a fitting machining trade. And then I went on from that into that trade in various different roles in various different companies from abattoirs, which was a whole lot of fun with, you know, people shouting at you with knives because you. The production was stopped and they were, they were missing their overs, which was how they made all their money for the week. Wow. So there's a lot of pressure involved in that. And that was a great place to work because I had a lot of depth and breadth. And then one day I decided that there wasn't too many people that are old and had their fingers or weren't broken down in the trade. And I decided to go overseas for a bit and take a bit of a circuit breaker and came back and did a degree in industrial design here at Newcastle University. So. But that was even interesting because I didn't have my HSC, so they knocked me back. I just set some exams to get in. Did a. Did pretty well, but they knocked me back because I didn't have HSC. So I actually paid to get in. The first year, I kind of found a bit of a backdoor approach and got a HD distinction and then they had to give me a position, which. It was an interesting kind of path, but that's probably one of the things that my traders taught me, is how to kind of work around a problem and find a solution that's not always obvious. So, mate, I like this. I traditionally dig into this a little bit later in the conversation anyway, but you brought it up. Education, you're in. You're in quite an interesting space where you deal with people, obviously the trade angle is like the tech angle, design angle in there. And I think with all those careers, there's multiple angles for people to try to grow their careers. HSc, school, university, sometimes I imagine there's some taFe, I imagine there's some, especially in that design angle, some external providers that could potentially. What's your thoughts? Is that. Is there a best avenue? Oh, look, it's probably an open ended question. I mean, this is obviously my opinion, but I think if you're in a tech focused area, so something that you're actually delivering tangible outcomes, it's not academic. Oh, I really believe that you should have something to complement your degree. That's whether it's working at McDonald's and learning customer service, whether it's having a trade. A lot of the advice we give people is think about what's complementary because there will be a point in time where you'll probably change multiple times. And having two things is always better than one. And having them complementary is really, really important. So marketing and design is really good. Manufacturing and design is really good. And I think that's not just design, but that's engineering, it's, it's software. Because all these things, they're tangible, people are going to use them at the end of the day and you've got to have that understanding of how to tease out from, you know, the users what they actually want because otherwise you're just designing in a little silo. Do you? So, yeah, look, degrees are good. I would say that what I'd like to see more in degrees is more practical elements of that and actually teaching people to actually build things and letting them learn some of the lessons at university rather than putting that onto an employer. Because I mean, running a business is very tight in this environment and I think that's really should be the role of a university. Nothing an employer to teach, essentially. Yeah, as you said, like margins are obviously getting smaller and, you know, cost of goods are going through the roof and all the rest of it. So those challenges with taking on grads and any mistakes and that learning that learning curve, if you accelerate that learning curve, you're obviously going to be in much better position. Yeah, for sure. And I think, like a lot of, I think one of the biggest mistakes is people can look at the academic record because that is, that's important. But what we've found more important running a business over the last 15 years is reliability, responsibility, willingness to push, you know, oneself. You know, people that just love learning are really good employees. That show up that can communicate. You know, those are the. They're sort of like soft skills, but they're actually more important in some regards than the degree, because it's actually really hard to teach those soft skills if you don't already have them. Yeah. So that's what I'd say. Like, if people are listening to this, is that, yes, the degree is important, but so are all those other aspects, especially for technical roles like you. Your company's all around that technical side. Right. Looking at different ways that you can solve problems. Right. So there's a problem solving element. The other part you mentioned before about McDonald's and customer service and then also being able to communicate to a client, like that communication, customer service piece, overlaying that with technical capability is like the holy grail, right. Because you can be as technical as you want, design the best thing. But if that doesn't answer the questions or solve the answers for your client. Yeah, it's no win. Customer service. And, like sales and marketing, customer service is really core to every business, whether you like it or not. I think having that ability to actually understand your customers needs, their customers needs is really important. And I think the thing is that communication is really, really important because people get nervous, like, when they come to us, like it's a relationship, it's kind of like a marriage didn't. I mean, like, they're taking a risk, and you've got to communicate frequently, even if it's bad. And that's some of the advice that God, that helped start the business. Well, it was not start the business, but he was there at the beginning. Doug Hellman, his key point was communicate even if it's bad, communicate early and often because it gives people a sense of ease. Yeah. Soon as someone gets nervous, the relationship starts breaking down. Innovation goes in the bin. It all goes pear shaped, you know? So at the end of the day. Yeah, you're working with people. Yeah. No, there's a people element to the technology. Right. And that's what I think that's becoming more and more to the forefront. AI, machine learning, the improvements in all the different technologies that you work with as well, they're continuing to improve and improve and improve will take more and more of, you know, a traditional technical roll away where that. That people element or problem solving element will really become the differentiator. Right. Yeah, I like it, mate. The reason I was keen to have you on the podcast today as well, the more I found out about your business, the more excited I was, and I started to understand some of the cool projects and some of the things are happening in the hunter and the things that you guys are working on that I didn't know, and I'm sure a bunch of our listeners would know as well. So for those of our listeners don't know who design anthology are, who is design anthology and what do you do? Yeah, so design anthology, we're essentially a product design company. That's our, that's our core kind of capability. But we do a lot of things outside of that. We've. When we started 15 years ago, there was, there really wasn't a lot of support for startups. And we really identified pretty early that having a good idea and having someone turn that idea into something physical, which is really the role of a product designer, is only, it's only a small part of the journey. And for us, we started from nothing. We've bootstrapped everything. We've kind of investigated and built websites and built our marketing campaign ourselves. We've actually actively gone out there and found all the different touch points or all the different steps and worked out kind of how to navigate that. So we sort of share that with our customers as well. So, but back to the point is like people come to us with an idea, we helped to flesh that out, we help them to create a strategy on how they would go to market. And we actually then obviously design the actual product. We design it for mass manufacturer predominantly. But yeah, there's lots of aspects and it's across all different verticals and all the different industries, from mining to medical, the military, we've done ultrawide aircrafts, we've done mahogany speedboats, we've done tiny little medical products. It's really, really diverse and we've had to be like that. That was part of who we had to be when we started in the hunter because there was no one like us and we had to take what was available. But 15 years later, it's, it's a different ballgame. And we've definitely seen that progression in the hunter. And, you know, there's more support for people like ITwo n and there's some, some really good programs running, helping people to fill out those, those gaps, I suppose. So you work with anyone from a startup with an idea through to a large corporate that wants to innovate or create something new. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Look, we've worked with, I mean, last year alone we, we developed 37 new projects or products, which is probably definition of insanity, I would say, but. And now across corporate through to startups. So medical, there's a lot of products in like assisting people with disability, which was really interesting. A different sort of space that we're working in. But at the end of the day our process is the same and we just apply it to a different kind of area. And having that breadth has been really good because lots of times people try to reinvent the wheel and it's already actually being invented over here. And we kind of. Because we're exposed to that, we can kind of bring a lot of value by cross pollination. And you know, we're very pragmatic. Didn't mean we'll say to people no, that's don't do that. Or that's already done over here. So let's, you know, save a lot of money and time and not do that. Reinventing the wheel. Let's just get cracking. So yeah, I love the angle of taking a learning in one vertical that potentially hasn't been applied to another verdict or another industry. And of taking those learnings and applying it somewhere else. Yeah, a lot of people talk about innovation and a lot of people, you know, you think you have to create something from. From scratch. And I'm sure there is part of that that you guys do, but part of it also is just, you know, looking at a problem slightly differently or taking some Linux from somewhere else and applying it to a different, different problem. Yeah, for sure. And I think you can save a lot like we, we. Because I come from manufacturing, you can save people a lot of money. Didn't mean like that's probably one of the things that we've. When we started our business. Yes, the aesthetics are important because I mean industrial designers get criticized for, you know, making things pretty but expensive, you know. And, and that's not the way that we built this business. Our business is opposite to that. We make sure it works. We make sure it's optimized first of all. Then we make it pretty and all the other things which is still very, very important because people, they'll pick a product based on its looks. So it's not to be undervalued. It's just the way that we go about it is actually putting the business first and making return on the investment first rather than making it pretty first, if that makes kind of sense. Is there a project you over the past 1224 months that you've worked on that you're really excited about or that you'd love to share like. Yeah, I've seen some of the things and you've given me some insights into some things you've worked on and it blows my mind that these type of things are coming up with these ideas and bringing it to fruition here in the hunter. I just don't think Newcastle always does a great job of, you know, sharing our own stories or tooting our own horn. So I'd love to hear any of the shows or products that you'd like to. I couldn't agree more. I think the hunter needs to promote itself more. We've got a lot of smart people here so yeah, look, we work on out of the 37, there's probably a lot of them we still can't talk about because we're under confidentiality. But one of the projects we, we really enjoyed last year was a medtech project. So for a company called Aus Diagnostics, they walked in the door with a problem with a. Basically it was an old machine. The technology was a known quantity in medtech. Any change is expensive because of the process in which you need to sort of justify that change. And they came to us and said, look, we know this is a great product, but the value prop and the look doesn't align. So we got involved. We had to prove ourselves. We're a new kid on the block in that sort of area. And the feedback and seeing people's, the expressions on people's faces and the comments, that's my heroin didn't. I mean, that's, that's what gets me out of bed, you know, and that's what I strive for. And that old diagnostics project has been really, really successful. So we've turned that around. We've given it a complete facelift. We. I think we've reduced the amount of parts in it by over 96%. So it looks frigging awesome. And obviously I'm biased, but it looks, it looks amazing. They're really, really happy and blown away with it. We put strategies in there so that they could actually white label it, so they could actually extend their product range just by changing one part. So that's all part of that strategy. And I think that's probably the exciting people is you work. Part of it is you're working with these like amazing people that, you know, highly skilled. And I suppose from my perspective, maybe I'm bit of the imposter syndrome is you bring value that they can actually see and it's tangible and they get excited about and. Yeah, so that, that was really good. So we basically went through the process of designing. Well, I actually wanted three different concepts, which is actually harder than you'd think, coming up with three different concepts. Obviously very stringent requirements around form factor and how the actual machine operated. But we actually delivered some really valuable savings and obviously improvements to the looks, delivered the concept, did some cost modeling for them so they could make sure it was a good investment. And obviously we've progressed through to detail design prototypes. We've actually made two different prototypes now and they're into ready minute for manufacturing, so. But it's been great. Like it's been a great journey. They're a great company doing innovative things and they're actually, they'll bought out by a german company. And one of the prototypes we, we made went to a show in Europe a couple of weeks ago and the feedback was amazing. They absolutely loved it. Like, it was such a game changer because like the technology is amazing and now that we can make it cheaper, they hated making the old one. Like, yeah, you know, it was tedious and I. And it's, it's about trying to back to that comms part. Like that's probably the exciting part is you're trying to tease out what's the pain points for every key stakeholder or department and then try to deliver a bit of gold for everyone, you know. And I think that was, that's been a really successful kind of project as well, so. But yeah, it's uh, it's definitely challenged, challenged us because we've had to do a lot of stuff in house this for that prototype, so forming heat, forming acrylic and there's things that we, you know, we probably didn't have the expertise in but we had to kind of upskill in a, in a week, you know, so it's. I don't know. At the end of the day I've probably. My, my key thing is I love to learn new skills and I want to be good at everything and, uh, same with this team. And yeah, this business gives us an opportunity to do that. So. Yeah, no, mate, you mentioned a couple things there. You mentioned innovation. You've mentioned that quite a few times. And then, then that learning piece as well. Yeah, there's part of it for you as the individual, obviously, as the principal, but also for your team. You can't be the only one learning innovating. Right. How do you. Oh, let's start with what you look for in somebody to join your team from that innovation or consistent learning. I want to start there and then sort of dig into like how do you build a culture of that or how do you encourage that? Yeah, but like, to start with what are the things if somebody's somebody's looking to get into your game. What are the sort of skill sets or attributes that you're looking for for somebody when you're building out your team? One of the things we look at and is actually what they do in their own time. What's, what's your hobbies? We asked that. It's a bit of a leading question because it actually gives us some insight into what your passions are. And I suppose, like, my, my job as the director is really to, to bring people into the business that are passionate about a certain skill or certain discipline that we need. So if you can, if you can get someone in the business that loves what they do and they do that in the business and out of the business, it's a win win situation. So my recommendation is for people that are trying to get into this industry is have a passion, have a skill set that you, that you're building out on the side that is complementary. So that could be, I mean, we've got jesses and amazing comms, like the, she writes is just phenomenal. Do you know, I've got Nat, who's got the whole different background, Toby, that even though he hasn't got a degree, he started mechatronics, but he's just a learner and he's a doer and he's a goer. And I think looking from the outside in, you're really looking for traits. What's your hobbies? Are you consistent? Are you passionate? Humble is another thing that we look for, is, you know, can you own a mistake and also, can you bounce back from that? Because some people get really paralyzed by making a mistake. And I imagine your game is about consistently making mistakes and learning from it, like, with design and trying something and failing and then trying something new. A hundred percent. And I think with us is we are, I mean, our model at the moment is we offer fixed costs, fixed deliverables. We're on the hook. So we, we technically can't fail. Yeah. But we have to fail really, really quickly and fast and have those always sort of say, we always have plan ABCDe and F. Do you know what I mean? And, and we just bounce. Do you know? And I think that's when we're looking for people, it's, it's the ability to bounce. I think sometimes you only get that through hard knocks in life. Yeah, sometimes. Because if you've never had that failure or never been knocked down and had to drag yourself up again, then I, I think it's a learned thing. I think some people inherently have it. But I think at the end of the day, that's something that we really do look for, and ownership is a big part of it as well. Like, don't blame other things, people or other things. Just own it, get onto it. And I don't know, I'm not sure I answered that very succinctly, but I think there's lots. I mean, there's obviously lots of attributes you're looking for, but I think the hobbies thing is a really interesting thing. Oh, passion for what you're doing. Right. Especially in where you're at, because your game and the technology's change so fast that you have to be passionate about being on the forefront, like what's next, what's coming, and trying a new, you know, something new. Trying and something that's a new way of doing something. Yeah, I think that if you're passionate about that, the people that keen for it, like, are looking for that. And a lot of our staff, like, it depends on who. What role they're in. I mean, it's kind of like. It's like a relay. It's a. It's a baton. It's a baton passing over or you're passing the baton a lot of the times and a lot of our stuff, like, you look at the Instagram pages, it's all manufacturing. They're just looking for the tricks. And all of our staff are always just continually looking to be the best in their game. And I think providing them time and space is a really important part of that. All right. That sort of leads in that second part. Right. How are you helping foster that culture of innovation? How are you helping them continue to grow? Obviously, they've got to have that innate internal drive for it, but how are you fostering that culture to foster innovation in a company like ours? It's essentially like it's balancing on a knife edge, because you're balancing. You're balancing all the expectations of your customers and delivering good quality outcomes, and then you're also balancing developing and building your staff out whilst not burning them out. So it's definitely something I haven't perfected, but I think one of the things we have learnt this is Amy, Amy's and my business partner and wife, and we've been sort of fleshing this out for a long time now. But I think one of the things you have to do is you have to remove the roadblocks first and foremost, because if you have too many roadblocks or too many, too much confusion, then there's no space for innovation. So I think removing the roadblocks, number one, giving people space. I think you need to push people. You need to know when to stop, but you also need to push them because being innovative is actually scary to, like, because you're doing things you've never done before. Now, I probably got comfortable with it and sometimes I probably undervalue how actually frightening it is. But, like, the last few weeks with a workshop lead away, who's amazing individual. I've. I've been thrown in the deep end and I had a bit of that fear come back in. Can I do this? Like, yes, I know I could do it 20 years ago, but can I do it now? You know, and I think good to challenge yourself, though, right? If you're going to challenge all your staff, got to challenge it from the top. Yeah. I think also innovation, you need to have that. You have to have the right environment, like, and you have to have the right type of leadership. Like, I don't actually ask people to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. And do I know all the answers? No, but there's a process and I think that's trying to keep people in line. When you have a crisis and you hit a brick wall, it's like, it's okay. We've got a thing called YouTube. We've got great partners that we can actually ring up and say, hey, look, we're stuck here. How do we. How do we work this? How do we work around this? And I think that's the other thing that we've done is we've actually, for our staff is we have a very small team and we. We definitely hit, you know, way above our weight. But the way that we've done that is we've actually got a really good ecosystem around our business as well. So for Toby, like, his skill sets in, you know, mechatronics only go so far. So we've got an amazing company that we. We would do a lot of work with. And I co inhabit, we call it Evo Technologies. And. And we share information. You know, we've got other partners that can come in and fill a gap. So at the end of the day, like, you don't want to leave someone out on limb, so you got to support them. So, yeah, that's probably a little bit long winded, but, yeah, I think. I think the key things are roadblocks, support and give. And you got to give them some space. Yeah. So, yeah, I like it, mate. No, I think those. Those three things whilst. Yeah, it's a longer answer. I think those three things are pretty nice and simple and easy for other people to implement as well. Yeah, you just dug into the partners part. I think a lot of people in smaller business as well. I completely agree. You bet way above your average and your size for, you know, the size of team, the output that you get for your size team is incredible, but you're doing it because you've partnered with other, other people, other companies. How have you fostered that? Because I think there's, I think there's a mentality out there in small business as well, especially starting out. You want to own everything. You've got to be everything and be all encompassing yourself and leaning on other people or sharing or partnering. It's sort of frowned upon sometimes. And definitely from an ego perspective, how have you gone about fostering those relationships? Because I think it's one of the keys to your success, but also it's a challenge that small businesses and entrepreneurs in general, I think, struggle with. Yeah, I think it's definitely been, it's like the holy grail, really. And, and we've been pretty fortunate. I don't know whether it's just purely by chance, but we've been really fortunate in, in the partners that we've established. I mean, we've, it's not been by accident. We've been intentional. Like, ethics is a really important part of our business. Do you know what I mean? Like, the way in which we conduct ourselves is really important. So essentially, we pick people that have very similar ethics. And probably that's first and foremost is that they're not there to gouge people or, you know, do the wrong thing. People by people. They're actually there to set people up for success. That's probably one of our first kind of key indicators or of a good partnership, trying to tease that out to make sure that there's an alignment there. And I think then obviously, it comes down to technical know how and ability to actually execute and deliver. So because of our model, we need partners that understand that delays we don't get paid for. So building that network has been really important. But I think at the end of the day, just treating people well, like if they're a contractor or a partner, bringing them in on it early, pitching together, promoting them, and being honest about what their strengths are. I think that's like, sometimes we don't actually need the work. Well, we're not actually best suited to the work, so we actually refer on. So you just get goodwill, do you know, calm. I don't know what you want to call, call it. But at the end of the day, I think if you do the right thing by people, then it will come back around. And I think just being honest, transparent, being out of a laugh, you know, but having that mindset of like, we've got a goal to actually set our customer up for success, that's the aligned goal. Like all the rest of it's really cool because even tech, the risk in tech and probably why we went a fixed cost model is because you never ended, like, there's always something cooler, do you know? And if you're not actually customer focused, you could just go on and just burn money like it's going out of fashion because there's always just something new and shiny. And that's why we've sort of built the business and the partnerships, because we're like, no, no, it's about setting the customer up. Let's just put a pin in it and we can come back around when we've got spare time to check that new tech out, but we've actually got to deliver. So, yeah, I like what you said about owning your part in that. It's just like, hey, this is what we do. We do this part well. If it's not our jam, we're going to pass off to somebody else that we know, like trust. Yeah, I think there's a lot of power in that as opposed to trying to, you know, bastardize yourself and be everything to everyone. It's like, hey, here's what we do. We do it really well. You know, your model and if it's outside of that, walking away from it. Yeah, and I think to your point before too, with startups and the, it has. Newcastle was very, very closed off. I think people wouldn't want to share, they didn't want to share information. I don't know what it was, but we've definitely seen a change in the 15 years for the better. And I think even with a startup, I think the reality of it is you got to remember that the time to market is so important, right? Like you've only got a certain amount of time and a certain amount of cash to get your product to a point where it's actually returning on the investment. Otherwise you're a charity and going out of business, like. So when you change your mindset about less about the idea and less about your baby and more about actually executing it, then it changes the way you approach partnerships too, because people, people sense whether you're there just to take all their ideas and run like, yeah, or whether you're actually there for a long term relationship, do you know, and maybe the other part you mentioned there as well, that commercial aspect to it. I think especially in the startup world, there's thousands of really sexy, well written apps in the app store that no one's ever looked at because they're not built for a market or they don't understand who they're built for, the customer. I'm sure there's thousands of products out there that look great work. Well, but again, isn't solving that commercial outcome or what somebody's actually looking for. So looking at that startup angle, not just about, oh, this looks good, it would be great. But what's the commerciality around that? But adding that element over, like over top from the start, I just think is a nice fresh approach. Yeah, I think it's super important because at the end of the day, like, you only live for a certain period of time, right? So every hour counts. So if you're getting too precious about an idea that doesn't have legs and you're wasting your life, realistically, like, it sounds, it sounds a bit rude and a bit probably a bit pragmatic, but you're probably better off knowing that really early. And I think that's probably where we've a little bit different. We will highlight that real early because we don't want people to mortgage their home. We don't actually want that for people. We would actually prefer them to know that idea is not viable and then come up with a better idea and get a return on the investment. Because the commercial reality of things is super important. You don't do it for nothing. We do say to people, you're going to get a lot of learnings out of this. This is a crash course and an MBA. But the other thing is as well, it's like the product's one thing, but marketing, advertising, all those sorts of things. You can't be everything. And I think the sooner you realize that and the sooner you get cracking and get good people around you that can actually help you to actually communicate the key benefits to the market, the better off you're going to be. Yeah, I like it. May, the other angle you mentioned before, you mentioned Newcastle. Yep. I know you've worked on products that are national and you've mentioned international as well, but you've remained in Newcastle for 15 years as a great hunter. You've worked a lot of projects locally as well. Why? Why Newcastle? Why have you remained here? Obviously there would have been opportunities given. You know, there's obviously bigger customers outside the hunter. Why? Why Newcastle? Oh, look, there's lots of reasons. The hunter is. Is like a treasure trove. Realistically, it's a tough market. You're not going to get the keys to the treasure trove easily because it's all about relationship up here. And I like that because I come from a country town. So, you know, what you say is what you're worth, realistically. So I like that element. And it's probably a really good place to start a business because it's a small country town and it keeps you very honest. And not that I'm dishonest, but from establishing a business, there's an element of you're going to find out pretty quickly whether it's good or bad because people are going to be pretty honest or you're just not going to get customers. There's elements of Newcastle that are good and elements that are. That are tough. But Newcastle also has a really, really broad and very deep base of technology and engineering know how and manufacturing know how. I mean, that's history. Okay. So once you can actually find the people, which is the challenge, because we don't promote ourselves, there's actually some amazing individuals and companies in the hunter, but you'd probably never know about them. So that's. That's why we stayed, is because we decided to invest and to find out who, essentially, who's who in the zoo, essentially, and partner with the right people. Yeah, Newcastle's. Newcastle is a very interesting place. I mean, a lot of manufacturing base, a lot of, obviously, the university, there's a lot of opportunity there. I think that's probably untapped because it's essentially a city in of itself. And I think the reality of its lifestyle as well. I mean, we've brought up four kids here and it's amazing lifestyle. And, yeah, it's definitely been a great place to start a business. I think our next journey is to take that model and then really sort of push it out into the broader market. And it's been really good to actually see people actually actively, you know, coming from international and also more nationally to actually pursue us because of our model that we've created here. So, yeah, new is a fantastic place. I think it's a. It's definitely changed in the last 15 years because when we first started, if you would ask me why did I stay, I probably would have said in the first couple of years, I would have said I'm half mad because no one understood us. They didn't get it. And if it wasn't made out of metal. And it wasn't welded then. It was a foreign concept, but now it's evolved. It's definitely heading down the right path. Yeah. No, I think that access to the vast array of industries as well here, obviously for model and how you operate, access to all of that whilst in a big country town. Well, an accessibility. I mean, it's what. It's not far to Sydney. It's what, you know, round trip, I'm down there quite a few times every month. And so what, an hour and a half to 2 hours if you pick your times. Right. You know, you've got a pretty amazing airport up here. And you can be in Melbourne in what, an hour and a half or something like that. So there's. There's. There's so many benefits. I think the other thing that really makes Newcastle is that it's actually made up of not just people from Newcastle, but it's actually made up from a lot of country folk. And I think that's. I think that's a real level for Newcastle. I think country people and city people have slightly different mindsets. But I think Newcastle is kind of a bit of a fusion of both. And I think that's. That's a really good thing for the region. And I think that's probably one thing that people don't really. They don't understand. It's, I suppose, looking outside of Newcastle, I just see that there's a. There are people from the country that really do bring a different way of life and a different work ethic potentially. Maybe not work ethic, but they've been exposed to different things. Right. And then bringing that and merging that with. With what Newcastle has to offer, I think, is definitely. It's definitely creating a really good melting potential. Yeah. I think their relationship angle you mentioned before definitely is strong. Like, you can't build a business in Newcastle or do well or build a career, even to a point in Newcastle without actually building genuine relationships. There's a couple of degrees of separation. If you burn a couple of people, I think. Yeah, that reputation gets. Gets around pretty quickly. If you build a great reputation. Word also gets around. So I think that relationship angle and then you overlay that with proximity to Sydney and then more people coming in from outside and you cast and that commercial side. So I think if, as you said, that melting pot of more of a relationship, maybe country background, as well as a commerciality of a bigger city. It's a nice synergy. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting one. Because even with us, you know, like, there's there's been businesses that we've been trying to get for, you know, the foot in the door for like years. And they've always gone to Sydney, they've always gone to the big firms, you know, and only recently. It's probably taken us 14 years for them to actually open their door, you know, and Newcastle is pretty conservative, do you know, like, it's a. It's a tough market, do you know what I mean? And I think. I think if you can crack Newcastle, I think you can crack anywhere. Yeah, no, I like it, mate. You've mentioned relationships and I think that is definitely that country, you know, background that plays into well, but relationships, and there's one probably more important than any other. Your wife and also business partner. There's not many people that go into that relationship. How have you found that, do you think? Obviously there'd be some challenges with that, obviously leaving work at work. How do you merge life and work and all that may for anyone that's, you know, either potentially got the opportunity to work with a partner. Any advice for someone? Oh, jeez. I'm probably the wrong person sitting here. I think my wife should be able to give me. You've known the wrong person because you build a business to survive 15 years and you've got four kids and still married. So I think it's really anyone that's got a business partner. It is a deep relationship, but obviously you're overlying the fact that you wife and parents. Yeah, look, Amy and I, we have very similar interests. It's our strength and also our weakness. I think we've been very reflective over the last twelve to 18 months. We both love projects and we've both kind of been born to work. Right. We both, you know, she comes from Bendio and off a farm and. And it's just been ingrained into both of us that real work ethic and be quite honest, our love languages is actually projects. So we're very. We just love to throw ourselves deep, you know, knee deep into a project even when we don't actually know anything about it. So that's probably one of the things that's probably kept us going. I think having that kind of common interest, that common and interest in learning and pushing the boundaries and creating something new has been really good. The flip side of that, obviously, is we both egg each other on and we probably don't know when to stop. Which, you know, if you actually interviewed some of our team, they'd probably say that we're half mad with what we sort of set ourselves up for. But how do you make it work? I think at the end, you want to have fun. I think Amy and I have a pretty unique ability to laugh, even when things are just shit, excuse the French. And we've had, like, you know, we've had some pretty tough times through the business and, you know, and outside of the business, so it all kind of culminates. But I think one of the things that Amy and I, we've been, we're very resilient people, and we've got an ability to probably be Amy saying toxic positivity, I think her comments. So we're trying to balance that out a bit. But we are. We are. But we always look at the opportunity. We see the opportunities and everything, which is a strength, but also a weakness. And I think we also try to shine a good light on most things. And I think being positive is a great thing. But I think also in hindsight, sometimes you've just got to call it out for what it is and address it rather than trying to, what do they say? Polish a turd. So, you know, I think it's been the challenge. I mean, me and Amy, we just enjoy each other's company at the end of the day, like, she's my best friend and, and she's an amazing woman and, you know, and, um. Yeah, I think, excuse me, getting a bit emotional, but, you know, like, like, you know, inspirational. Be quite honest. So, you know, like, I've seen her just back it up like no one else. You know, I mean, like, having four kids, I mean, our 1st. 1st son, you know, he first child, he didn't sleep for 18 months and, and he had a sleep condition, which meant that he slept for like maximum 4 hours a day. And that was including day sleep. So, you know, starting a business and having that going on. And my wife's an absolute saint, you know, I don't know how she did it, but, yeah, just inspirational. And, and she really brings a lot of strategic kind of insights and input. So at the end of the day, we, we just. We like it. We enjoy it. It's been tough. But I think at the end of the day, I think being very honest with each other and, and when we started our marriage, I never prescribed a 50 50. I think you just throw everything in and even. And it all works out in the mess with the marriage because. Not a mess. Not, not. Definitely not the mess, but definitely works out for the best. Because at the end of the day, if you're always looking at from a lens of 50 50, then you're always getting to a point and you're hoping that someone sort of meets you there where if you just throw everything into it and you're both aligned on that, then you know that you've got each other's backs. Yeah. So, yeah, it's. It's. It's not easy. I would say that, like. And I think you have to have boundaries. I think one of the smartest things that Amy. Amy did quite a few years ago now was put in place sort of intermediary. So Alicia Smorkham was the first good friend of ours, an amazing, amazing individual. And Amy put her in place to basically be the mediator between the two of us because. Because sometimes, you know, I'm a bit stubborn. And she wanted to enact some change, but she didn't want to pester me, so she would get Alicia to do that for her. So. And that kind of worked because it kind of separated the work and the home life, and. And it wasn't her doing the nagging. It was actually implemented through someone else, and. And that's been a really smart move through Amy. And Jess now takes on that role, and, you know, obviously not an easy role for anyone, but, oh, no, I wouldn't be signing up for that role, but, yeah, it's good. And I think, at the end of the day, just loving your life and knowing the value in life, you know, kids are a blessing. We were told we actually weren't to have kids, so after three years of drawing, we ended up having, well, started the journey of having four. So things haven't come easy. So we kind of value that. And by the new Attack People podcast has now become a relationship podcast. But I do like mate, and the reason I ask it, I help out on continue to dive down this angle as well, is like running a business from a technology perspective. There's obviously, you can go and work in a company and be that technology professional, but, like, managing the relationships part of it and whether it be with a wife or other people in a team or business partner, for those that go the entrepreneurial route, that's massive challenges and into team relationships is massive. And being able to manage that or work with that and get the best out of that leads to a lot of success, a lot of the time or failure. Yeah, it's definitely the key area that Amy and I don't have. We're not strong in that area. We've had a lot of coaching from Shelley Johnson, and she's just amazing. She just calls it as it is. And pushes you, mate. You're not the first person. Might be the last person speaks positively around Shelly. She's a. She's a legend. She's a legend. And one of the things I really like about Shelly is she'll call you on it and it comes back to that innovation. You never grow through an innovation kind of lens if you don't get pushed. And Shelley would be like, josh, stop bitching about it. Go and do something about it. You got today. And I'll be like, oh, crap. You know, so having. Having good people around you is important. I think that's a whole skill set that a lot of us are ill equipped to actually deal with, because people are complex, and. And when you run a business, and especially when you treat people like family, it's. It's complex and it's hard, and. And sometimes you get it right, and sometimes you get it wrong, and I think the only thing you can do is learn from it. So, yeah, partnerships, I think, like volunteers, I think partnerships are such a. I would say that's probably the. What we're. From what we've seen looking outside in, it's probably the thing that destroys businesses the most. Because partnerships are hard, because situations change, you know, like, it's a, like I was saying to one of my staff members the other day, he's like, this is the best job that I have. You know, it's my ultimate job. I was like, yes, it is. Right now. Yeah, but when you've got kids and you've got wife and your focus changed and it might actually be worse. Nightmare. So. And I think being transparent is good part of that, you know, and accepting that things change and people move on, and that's actually a healthy thing. Yeah. And partnerships in general, I guess, especially in the startup world as well, again, people in a startup can feel quite siloed. I've got to do it all myself. It's got to be my idea. I've got to write the code. I've got to build the product. Whereas the partnerships, people that do partnerships well, whether it be a business partner or whether it be an external company or an agency that you work with, do that part well can be the difference between making it not. Oh, for sure, partner. It's all about relationship. But the reality of. I think the reality of life is if you talk product sense, it's all about relationships, it's all about advertising. The product is. Is a tool, essentially, to build businesses, you know? So if you don't have good relationship and if you don't have good advertising and copy and marketing. It just doesn't work. Yeah. So, yeah, the one part I think I've probably taken out of this interview more than anything is the actual passion for doing what you're doing. And you mentioned passion with you and your wife, you mentioned passion about actually doing something you're enjoying. You mentioned it. When you talk about your employees and having a passion about what they're doing for somebody that doesn't, it's earlier on their career that doesn't understand what they want to do yet. They just haven't been exposed or don't have that. I know exactly where I want to be. Five years time, ten years time, career wise, any advice for someone you know, that's either going into university or coming out of university and done a broad degree, hey, I've got these skills. I don't know exactly where I want to go. Yeah. Look, I think the, the advice is simple. I think when you're starting out, I think exposure to as many different things as possible is, is beneficial. And don't, don't undervalue anything realistically. Like, I think, always be willing to learn and, and actually try, always to try to discover the value, the tips and the tricks like, you can take. Like, like we're talking about before. Like, you can cross pollinate tips and tricks from one industry to another. I mean, I talk about maccas. I mean, like, they train their staff well. You don't go to Mac as many times, and you get a bad experience from someone on the kiosk because they're trained to treat people well, like, that's actually a skill. So even if you do it for six months, twelve months, like, just go in there knowing that you're there to learn a skill and be part of that journey of discovering what your passion is, because you never know. Gonna know if you don't actually try lots of different things. So when you're at uni, I think the other thing, too, is just get out there and push yourself and do different things. I mean, university is a great experience. I mean, I love going to university, and one of the things that I, you know, I did was I asked what the opportunities were. You've got to ask. You're never going to get anywhere if you don't ask. I think when you're young and when you're, you know, at university, there's a fear of asking. But I tell you what, generally speaking, you get a pretty good response if you ask. Yeah. If you show that you're interested, people will actually share with you. They'll actually give you secrets. I'll give you. They'll share the 30 years worth of experience with you if you rock up with the right attitude. So having those conversations, getting out there, going to the networking events, even if you're not qualified, it doesn't matter. People will see you. People will see that that interest. They will foster you, and they'll also probably help you to. They'll probably see something in that you don't even see yourself. So I think it's exposure and being open and just having a crack, I think, is a key part up. I like it. I like it. That's nice advice to finish on, I think. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom today and everything that's going on. The story of design anthology, thanks very much. Thanks for having me. It was a real pleasure.