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Doug Healy, Senior Director, Consumer Insights for Gatorade at PepsiCo, discusses the similarities between insights professionals and architects, the importance of foundational research, and changing the perception of what it means to be part of an insights team.
Welcome to Dig In, the podcast brought to you by the minds at Dig Insights. We're interviewing some of the most inspiring brand professionals in marketing, innovation, and insights to discover the story behind the story of their most exciting innovations.
00;00;09;04 - 00;00;23;18
Speaker 1
Welcome back to this week's episode of Dig In. This week, I am joined by Doug Healey from PepsiCo. He's the senior director of Consumer Insights for the Gatorade Performance Portfolio. Doug, how's it going?
00;00;24;18 - 00;00;35;19
Speaker 2
It's great. Megan Healey. How are you doing? Megan Healey, who I will say we talked about this before you spell your name correctly. My my genealogy sold out when we came across the pond.
00;00;35;28 - 00;00;38;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. What's up with the missing year between.
00;00;38;27 - 00;00;49;00
Speaker 2
Now and the only one E? Only one E? It's embarrassing at times. I know, but congratulations congratulations to your for fathers and mothers for.
00;00;49;05 - 00;01;13;02
Speaker 1
Sticking to it. Thank you so much. I mean, my my parents did unfortunately name me Megan with an EAA, which makes my life challenging because no one knows how to say my name, but it's probably a story for another day. I mean, I think Megan or something and Meghan yeah. I don't think that's what that's what people tuned in for.
00;01;13;09 - 00;01;31;15
Speaker 1
They're probably a little bit more interested, probably a little bit more interested in what you have to say. So today we're going to talk a little bit about how to structure a team for success, what the future of insights looks like in your view. You've been at PepsiCo for for a little while now. Do you.
00;01;31;15 - 00;01;32;06
Speaker 2
Mind? Years?
00;01;32;18 - 00;01;37;14
Speaker 1
Yeah. 12 years. Do you mind just telling people a little bit about your professional background?
00;01;38;09 - 00;02;03;27
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I have been in insights my entire career. I graduated with a liberal arts degree in December of 1999 from from Drake University and I graduated and not knowing what in the world I'd ever, I'd ever do and I happened to get a job at a local company. It's called Health Focus International there's still a rather great research company that focuses on, on health and wellness.
00;02;04;16 - 00;02;24;23
Speaker 2
And I just, it immediately clicked. I happened to get an internship there and right away, like not having any idea what I was going to do, I just knew that I loved this. I knew that I loved, you know, solving problems. I mean, I mean, it's really it's about going out and learning and then coming to a to a recommendation to a decision.
00;02;24;23 - 00;02;41;13
Speaker 2
It was I don't know, it's so exhilarating. It's always changing. So anyways, we'll get there. But it's the so I started a health focus. I was there for like seven years. I went to Barilla Pasta and Sauce Company, the Italian company, and that was great. I was there for about three years. And then so I came to PepsiCo in November of 2010.
00;02;41;13 - 00;03;00;22
Speaker 2
I worked on the Quaker brand for seven years, and then I've been with the Gatorade team for about five years now. And I got to say, like, like I said, I, I have a passion for the function. Yeah. Because I've been in it from the very beginning and I just, I love what we do. I love going to trade shows.
00;03;00;22 - 00;03;13;23
Speaker 2
I love meeting people in the function. I love talking to young people about career path and how to think about how we can be our best selves within this work. And so I also love talking with people like you about the topic too.
00;03;14;10 - 00;03;44;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's, um, it was really interesting to sit in on your recent talk at Quarks and learn a little bit more about Gatorade and the performance portfolio and kind of like how you and your team approach, I guess socializing insights and making sure that you guys really are quite insight led is that kind of what keeps you at Gatorade like this, you know, this passion for being insight driven or consumer centric?
00;03;44;17 - 00;03;52;26
Speaker 1
I know that a lot of brands use those words, but do you feel like that really is something you guys live on a day to day basis within your team?
00;03;53;18 - 00;04;11;23
Speaker 2
For sure. For sure. So I'll give you a quick on like the company quick. So like one of the I mean, you were just like, oh, you know what keeps your Gatorade? I've been here for five years now, and they as a business unit, not just the inside team. As a business unit, there is such a value for real consumer insight.
00;04;11;25 - 00;04;41;02
Speaker 2
I'm not I'm not just talking about this stuff where it's like, yes, we do some testing on our innovation to understand how good it is, or we do some focus groups with consumers, like legitimate passion. When we travel for work, we will sometimes just work with local high schools to go visit high schools and kind of see what what kids are doing and what practices are like and go talk to the trainers and the coaches and and really embed ourselves in in the lives of the consumers that we're working with.
00;04;41;02 - 00;04;50;28
Speaker 2
And then as an insights function, obviously, you know, we get the kind of the honor, the pleasure, you know, the work of putting a lot of that together.
00;04;51;08 - 00;04;51;18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;04;51;24 - 00;05;20;28
Speaker 2
And, you know, one of the things I talked about, you know, in that talk, too, is, is because in this kind of gets to, you know, how we view ourselves as insights professionals, right? Insights as a function tends to get a lot of people who are into math. Right, for very good reasons. You know, math data geometry like the the those kind of stem parts of the organization or of of learning, which is great.
00;05;20;28 - 00;05;41;02
Speaker 2
We need all that. One of the things that we talk about as insights team is that, you know, the data and the math isn't the point, right? Like like that's a thing that's a tool. That's a way of getting to it. Like, what are we like when I talk to my friends outside and they're like, well, what is it you do?
00;05;41;05 - 00;05;57;28
Speaker 2
Like, I explain my role is sort of like the hand of the king in Game of Thrones or like a consiglieri or like a sorry, my mind is blanking on like the the president's top aide.
00;05;57;29 - 00;06;00;07
Speaker 1
Oh, like chief of staff.
00;06;00;13 - 00;06;19;03
Speaker 2
Thank you. Like a chief, like a chief of staff type role where you're in the ear of leadership. Give it like, hey, we've looked at all of the information. Here's here's the best bets to make. Here's here's the way to go. How do you guide people to those decisions? And then, you know, how we get there is a function go.
00;06;19;03 - 00;06;38;29
Speaker 2
Getting back to kind of your original question was how do we bring it to life and how we get people. There is you know, the metaphor I like to use is that of we're architects, right? And I see that in the way that like as an architect, when you design, you have a goal in mind, right? We are building something for this specific reason.
00;06;38;29 - 00;06;52;12
Speaker 2
And then you get into the weeds of it. You you have to understand the math. You have to know the angles of every single thing. And there's these blueprints that, like someone who is not in the function, has no idea what they're saying. Right.
00;06;52;12 - 00;06;52;23
Speaker 1
Right.
00;06;52;27 - 00;07;12;24
Speaker 2
But in the end and you have to know all of those things, you have to create it that way. But in the end, what people want right is a building that they can walk into and know where the elevators are without having to stop and figure out what the heck is going on to to be guided to where they want to go in a naturalistic way.
00;07;13;07 - 00;07;19;22
Speaker 2
And then there's also the benefit, right? They also want to be awed. Right? A big part of architecture is, you know, you walk.
00;07;19;22 - 00;07;20;09
Speaker 1
Up to it.
00;07;20;15 - 00;07;45;00
Speaker 2
Yeah. You walk into a structure building. You were inspired and it's almost like that inspiration in or helps guide you to your goal. Right. And that's how we have to look at the work, like we put in all the work. And I think sometimes as insights, we can focus because we love the math so much and we love building the blueprints so much that we like to show it.
00;07;45;17 - 00;08;11;16
Speaker 2
But in the end, like that's just the tool that we use to get to this place, right? So to get to this place of like to influence people, to guide them where they ultimately need to go, we have to be super tight in our deliverables. We have to create something like you were saying or inspiring an inspirational like, which can seem weird when you're talking about you know, certain certain types of research, right?
00;08;11;16 - 00;08;27;00
Speaker 2
But what is the thing that matters and how do you present it in a way that people just like instinctively go, Yes, I get it. So you're not even making the recommendation. You've kind of already put the recommendation in front of them. And so by the time you get there, they're like, Well, yeah, of course.
00;08;27;13 - 00;09;02;15
Speaker 1
Obviously. Yeah. No, that's amazing. Obviously. I mean, you're now making me want to work in insights. The marketer in the room is like Should I should I transition? It sounds amazing. And I love that analogy, this idea of like you mentioned, I think in a previous call that actually I don't know if this is exactly what you said, but we were talking about sort of architect versus carpenter and is the carpenter kind of what people used to think insights was like is the idea?
00;09;02;24 - 00;09;05;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that's the conversation we were having previously.
00;09;05;17 - 00;09;30;02
Speaker 2
Right for sure. For sure. And that's and I mean, the metaphor goes all over the place. Sorry. I think about these metaphors and stuff all the time, but yeah, it's there's there's that angle of it, too. And one of the worries I have for insights as a function is I do believe that sometimes we present ourselves as carpenters versus architects as, as, you know.
00;09;31;04 - 00;09;58;18
Speaker 2
And let me be very clear, obviously, the importance of carpentry can't be understated. Somebody has to build the building, right? Someone has to do it well and do it correctly. Right. But in the end, like I think some of the industry sees us as that. We're like, oh, well, we're building the tools that to in order to fit somebody else's blueprint versus the writer of the blueprint.
00;09;59;00 - 00;10;24;18
Speaker 2
And I, I think what happens in that I'm trying to be, I try to be sensitive. I'm not normally this but I know I'm being recorded. But we can be it's I fear we can commoditize ourselves when we focus on the look, this is what I'm building this is what I'm doing. Like, Oh, hey, I've built this method to help you figure out your strategy, like neural will.
00;10;24;18 - 00;10;51;15
Speaker 2
We'll worry about the methods and the techniques and like within our function ourselves, the strategy is also ours. The like, the, the leadership of that is also ours. And so it's like when you know, when we think when we look for people, right? Like when when you're looking, if you're starting an architecture firm and you're trying to build a team you're not going to start with carpenters, you know, because to your point, again, not because it's bad, it's a different business.
00;10;51;25 - 00;11;18;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. And but if you see yourself as a carpentry business, that's who you're going to hire. And that's, I guess, how we view things a little bit differently, right? We view things that like we're looking for people who are about building the strategy, the larger term or thinking about that endpoint like inspiration and or versus you know, more of the very specific technique of building the tools that get us there.
00;11;20;15 - 00;11;45;26
Speaker 1
So you're saying that basically when you're when you're hiring for someone to join, I don't know. Let's say your team, the Gatorade performance team, you're looking specifically for those people who will be architects. But where does the carpentry I know we're we're really taking this analogy like all the way through now but where do the carpenters sit then?
00;11;46;01 - 00;11;47;00
Speaker 1
Where do they come in?
00;11;47;20 - 00;12;13;14
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, carpenters build like so we when we design strategy. So our team isn't about building the tools themselves. Right. Our team is going to be about well, we're building the blueprints in the plans in order to design ultimately a strategy. So again, I'm trying to be careful because I feel like I spoke of carpentry in a like a pejorative way.
00;12;13;14 - 00;12;35;15
Speaker 2
And again, and I didn't mean to. And so now me saying like, oh, well, where are the carpenters? Yeah. Are because like I said, it isn't bad. But like we do need people, we need teams that are building out the tools of the function. We need people who are making sure that those the guts of the building itself are sound right like.
00;12;35;15 - 00;13;06;29
Speaker 2
And that's the key part is it's so important. Like the only other part the other part only works if the structural integrity and the foundation is sound like you, it's not enough to design something like there are classic design disasters of you know, the Common Narrows Bridge I think is the one in Washington and and you know, other buildings that were designed or built without the code necessary to hold up what this, you know, kind of fantasy design was.
00;13;06;29 - 00;13;34;05
Speaker 2
And it literally collapsed on itself. And so we absolutely value the partnerships we have with the companies that are building the tools that we can trust, that we can that we know are going to hold up the the strategies that we are putting together. So it's like I said, it's, you know, we partner it's it's a symbiotic relationship.
00;13;34;05 - 00;13;42;16
Speaker 2
Like this high, high minded idea of architecture is all garbage. If you don't have the foundational structure to to put it around.
00;13;43;05 - 00;14;06;02
Speaker 1
No, and I understand what you're saying, like there's no there's no hierarchy here. You're not saying that. Yeah. You know, architecture versus carpentry, I guess. I think I was getting turned around because I was thinking that, you know, those people that you partner with, I was thinking that there would be people within the insights function that handle more of like the tooling.
00;14;06;12 - 00;14;10;08
Speaker 1
And so I think I was just getting myself sorry I turned around.
00;14;10;28 - 00;14;33;02
Speaker 2
No, no, you're not getting yourself turned around. I think I think I was having a panic mode of making sure that like the like as we talk about those things, like emphasizing that it's because. Yeah, like I was like insights as a function right now I feel like is very tool focused it it and I think that's my point of you know, the point of emphasis is of course the tools are necessary and important.
00;14;33;02 - 00;15;13;03
Speaker 2
But like when I go to industry functions, it's all about like look at this new tool that we do look at, look at this new thing that we're in. It's like that's, that's great. But like I'm hearing less about and and so it's, it's a lot of the partners we work with, like, who are the companies like there are a ton of companies that are Digg insights like in I've had a number of conversations with you all and obviously, like there's I know a number of people on your team, brilliant strategic thinkers who are also working within a, an organization that's building new tools to be to be faster, leaner if we can be faster
00;15;13;03 - 00;15;24;20
Speaker 2
in our strategy, that's only helpful. Right. And so I think it's core to have partnerships with really smart companies like like yourselves. I know that's not what you're getting out here, but.
00;15;24;29 - 00;15;52;20
Speaker 1
No, no, I mean, I appreciate that. I think let's talk a little bit about kind of tooling and SAS or software as a service within research. Like how do you how do you think about building that into your sort of strategic insight unit? Like how when do you feel like SAS tools become really useful and when maybe are they not as useful?
00;15;54;01 - 00;16;22;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, like most organizations, we're using them more and more right? And it's where they've been super helpful to us. You know, I can give a couple of examples of just things that have happened over the past couple of weeks is like there's there's been a question that's come up. It's like, oh, man, we have we have this thing that is launching in three days, and there's suddenly this panic of, you know, this design might, might, might be really concerning.
00;16;22;24 - 00;16;43;17
Speaker 2
And it's like, well, typically a packaging test would take like four to six weeks and there's nothing you can do about it. And now we have the tools available to us, and it's not even that we need to go outside like even this, the action of, well, let me go reach out to a supplier or a partner and get proposals from a couple like that itself is going to take an afternoon or two at least.
00;16;44;17 - 00;17;13;29
Speaker 2
And so now, you know, we have the tools of it. You know, something came up like last week for this new product we're launching, and I was able to put something in and get there the next day and make a recommendation on packaging, and that's great. And so that's where it has been tactical, super, tactical, super. And that's where I feel like it really works is super tactical, laser focused, a B type questions and where, you know, where it isn't is strong is big strategic work.
00;17;13;29 - 00;17;36;15
Speaker 2
Again, like I've also when I spoke at Team Three last year, like one of my presentations, I feel like I'm swimming against the stream a lot of times because it's, you know, the presentation was about we actually do throughout the year a number of gigantic sample size studies that are super foundational. Right. And they take a they take longer to run, they're longer questionnaires.
00;17;36;25 - 00;17;58;05
Speaker 2
We get like two 3000 people at least per study. And the the goal of it all is that like, you know, there's an agility to kind of this SAS stuff of do it yourself and really quick studies. But in my mind, there's also this extraordinary agility of, well, I have this massive sample size and it helps me answer this question today.
00;17;58;18 - 00;18;20;18
Speaker 2
But like six months from now, somebody is going to ask a question that we didn't consider when we launched the study. But because I had a big enough sample size, I can go back and I can mine the data for more insights there. I mean, to me, that's also agility and that's also agility because I have a big foundational structure of information versus like I certainly, you know, SAS can be very like one off.
00;18;20;18 - 00;18;54;26
Speaker 2
Like we have this question about packaging, we have this question about our concept test and again, I, I, and those things are great. We need them. But I like, I think the value that we really provide to the organization where people really are like you know, the Gatorade Insights team is really a leader within our you is more of the bigger, broader foundational stuff where we're showing up and instead of saying, hey, this is the best innovation concept we have, it's, hey, this is how consumers are thinking.
00;18;54;26 - 00;19;13;17
Speaker 2
These are the big ideas guys we need to go get. And even looking, you know, our ultimate goal is to grow the business, be partners with our leadership. And part of that will always be concepts testing and creative testing. But it's like, how do you even get to concept testing and how do you get to your ideas? How do you know what matters?
00;19;13;17 - 00;19;29;29
Speaker 2
How do you know what inspires your consumer? And I think you know, there's kind of a forgotten bit of insights, which is the big, meaty, foundational kind of stuff that that I that SAS just doesn't have the tools for. I mean, maybe it will someday, but certainly not right now.
00;19;30;17 - 00;20;06;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. And that's the stuff you love. I know all about that before you love that, like the big sort of foundational pieces of research. I think I've seen a lot of advertising for SAS research platforms well, obviously we're looking at them all the time because we've got upsides or I was doing some sort of competitive benchmarking and a lot of the messaging is around, you know, the speed at which things are changing so for instance, like Suzy is a leading SAS research provider and I think their tagline is inside at the speed of culture, I believe.
00;20;06;26 - 00;20;28;14
Speaker 1
So like this idea that things are changing so quickly. What would you say to this idea that, you know, that foundational piece of research that you ran with to 3000 people eight months later, ten months later, you know, is that data still accurate? Is that something that you can still use? And I'm literally like, we didn't put this on the questions.
00;20;28;14 - 00;20;32;28
Speaker 1
I'm just I'm interested in what your opinion would be on that, because I know that it's.
00;20;33;02 - 00;20;34;15
Speaker 2
I talked to you about this before.
00;20;35;01 - 00;20;35;15
Speaker 1
No.
00;20;35;26 - 00;20;56;24
Speaker 2
No, no. Because I again, I have a hard take here, but I'm trying to be I again, I'm a now I'm trying to to moderate my response. So here's the idea it but well, this one I feel like I can be blunt if enough consumers first of all, human beings don't actually change that quickly. They don't like humanity has actually changed very little over the course of thousands of years.
00;20;57;03 - 00;21;40;06
Speaker 2
The context of which we live our lives changes constantly. But like the needs we have as human beings, the drivers of human choice and emotion and in passion those those macro things don't change quickly they really don't are now have the past two years seen drastic change of the context of the world we live? Yes. But the underlying drivers of the human spirit and the human choices that we make are actually very similar and the other flip I'll say is if insights change that quickly, there is no point in measuring it anyway.
00;21;40;14 - 00;21;53;09
Speaker 2
If you're saying the world changes every two months and a half, I can't I can't do anything with that. I can't if you're like, well, in two months the world's going to be different. OK, well then I guess we we shouldn't make any decisions right?
00;21;53;09 - 00;21;55;24
Speaker 1
Because, yes, insights shouldn't exist anymore.
00;21;56;22 - 00;22;20;27
Speaker 2
Yeah. Like like forecasting is impossible because it's like, well, in two months in and there is a there is a balance to that, right? Like obviously any forecast that the further out you go, the more variable it's going to be. And you should constantly update your information right? That of course, that's true. But the idea to me that it's like, well, an idea I have today is going to be out of fashion in three months.
00;22;20;27 - 00;22;42;27
Speaker 2
It's like, well, who gets something in a market in three months? Like I so now I'm like, if you're being that that specific with being that culturally relevant, I think the only place where that can really come to life is in social media. And there are opportunities there, right? Like like we do we we do have panels. And that's that's the thing I want to emphasize is that, like, again, we do all these things.
00;22;43;01 - 00;22;43;24
Speaker 1
Of course, I.
00;22;43;24 - 00;23;12;04
Speaker 2
Feel like a lot of time, like our function in a lot of insights, advertising of itself is very tool focused. And then again, marketing can be very like you want to be attention grabbing. So you'll see a headline of like, well, I use this tool because in two months the consumer will be different. It's like that's I mean, that's a that's a attention grabbing headline that is also it undermines the actual research itself.
00;23;12;16 - 00;23;35;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think it's it's meant to instill fear, right? Like this idea that like yeah, you need to keep pace with what's going on as an insights professional. You need to keep up with what's happening. And I think that, you know, we were both at Quirks recently I was at, I guess the week after everything is about speed right now.
00;23;35;10 - 00;24;03;16
Speaker 1
That's like everywhere. It's like how do you get to things faster and kind of what I hear you saying, I think we did talk about this that quirks is like speed matters only to us to an extent. And it's contextual like speed. Speed is important in specific context, but actually speed can mean something completely different if you are, as you said, mining data that you got six months ago you can do that really quickly.
00;24;03;16 - 00;24;09;24
Speaker 1
But it doesn't mean you're necessarily having to like collect the responses really quickly. That's all that makes sense.
00;24;09;24 - 00;24;35;06
Speaker 2
So yeah, and I also, I, I do firmly believe that there's yeah, there's a ton of value in not everything. It has to be overnight because, because there's just a limit to the information that you can. Again, strategic questions tend to be less a be right like because even big foundational studies, you run a lot of analytics against those to try and find connections in the data.
00;24;35;19 - 00;24;55;22
Speaker 2
And it's like, well, studies that tend to run super quick tend to also be super or like, hey, how did you score against the norm? What's this thing? Great, get it out. And the, the learning I take from that, you know, you know, the most important studies aren't the ones that tell me A is better than B, that's important sometimes.
00;24;55;22 - 00;25;17;02
Speaker 2
But then it's like, well, A was better than B because of these underlying drivers which are connected to this. And now that learning is something I can take on to my next innovation strategy is I remember the connections and the whys behind everything and you can't get as much of that when you focus so much on getting things as fast as possible.
00;25;17;23 - 00;25;26;14
Speaker 1
Yeah, so interesting. OK, I'm going to switch I'm going to switch gears a little bit and talk about.
00;25;27;11 - 00;25;30;18
Speaker 2
Is it like another hot topic you get me fired up again?
00;25;30;23 - 00;25;54;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, I get it. Well, hopefully we're going to talk a little bit about hiring and about kind of how you approach hiring for you know, to go back to that analogy of the architect, like what someone who might want to get into insights should be aware of if they're thinking like, you know, like if they're entry level, what kind of skills do they need to be honing?
00;25;55;14 - 00;26;01;05
Speaker 1
What kind of work experience should they be looking to get what would your advice be to those people?
00;26;02;04 - 00;26;25;05
Speaker 2
Yeah, heck yeah. And another another one. I love to get fired up. Let's get fired up. Because again, I because recently I've gotten involved more involved with recruiting than I have in the past, just like from an intern level and things like that. And it was interesting because one of the things I found is, is a specific example.
00;26;25;05 - 00;26;53;18
Speaker 2
We're trying to grow diversity, right? Like like within insights like black and Hispanic representation has been particularly soft. And so, you know, we're you know, we're out specifically recruiting, trying to grow at younger levels. You know, younger professionals now say that to say like so we went out to some new colleges and different things and we kept trying to get in insights intern for Gatorade, which I was like, amazing, right?
00;26;53;18 - 00;27;03;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, of course I want to go do this. And we had a lot of people that were like, Oh, well, it's insights. I, I don't know, like, we actually had one.
00;27;03;25 - 00;27;04;27
Speaker 1
Like, intimidated.
00;27;05;10 - 00;27;32;11
Speaker 2
No, like, just like, oh, I want to get into marketing. And it's like, yeah, I know that's what we're offering. And it's like, no, no, no. Your insights. We actually had one university counselor tell their student that their credit, if they came in, works, interned with us and insights that would not count toward their degree. Why like it's just a wild misunder like and I say all that to say, I believe.
00;27;32;15 - 00;27;54;10
Speaker 2
And part of this gets, again, how we present ourselves as like delivering numbers and being about the numbers. And all that is, is it's seen as a data function versus a marketing strategy function. And I know this is a big background, but I've learned a lot, I've learned a lot through this about other people's perceptions of what we do and what the function is.
00;27;54;10 - 00;28;12;20
Speaker 2
And like I have a pet, anyone who's listening who like would like me to come talk to their to their students about what insights really is. Please, because I want to change as much as possible. So I say that to say people believe what you really need is a hard core math, background, background and statistics. A lot of that.
00;28;12;20 - 00;28;33;25
Speaker 2
I'll tell you, I took none of that when I went to college. I think what we look for is someone with a strategic the way I like to put it is I'm looking for a smart person who's comfortable with numbers, right? Like you don't have to be like us. You do have to be comfortable with it. You do have to, to know how to, to play with it.
00;28;33;25 - 00;28;58;22
Speaker 2
But that's, that's not a super high bar. But like what I'm looking for is intellectual curiosity. Like, that's the biggest thing for me. I think the biggest success people have or at least when people don't perform as well as is, they probably could within insights. There are people who tend to answer the questions that are given to them and so it's like, Hey, can you get me some brand equity data?
00;28;58;22 - 00;29;18;29
Speaker 2
And then a day later, they're like, Here's that brand equity data you asked for. And then the people who are really successful are the people who are like, Hey, I ran up brand equity data and I saw some stuff in there and it was really weird. And so I started digging in and I pulled this together and they end up delivering like 15 to 20 slides with like I saw this and they weren't asked to do it, they just did it.
00;29;19;00 - 00;29;42;13
Speaker 2
And that sort of passion for the work I think has always been more indicative of long term success. Now, obviously, that's really hard. It's really hard to determine in an interview, but like if you're asking me for, for people interested in getting into the function, I think it's more about strategy. I think it's more about learn about the business itself and what impacts the business.
00;29;42;13 - 00;30;06;07
Speaker 2
Like, like I was thinking about this this morning ahead of our interview. Like I kind of even have a problem now. So like such a crotchety old man, but I kind of have a problem now when people say insights is like voice of the consumer because even that I think it can be lazy. Like the voice of the consumer says, I want something that tastes great, that has all the health benefits and zero calories and it's a dollar that's what the voice of the consumer is like.
00;30;06;17 - 00;30;28;13
Speaker 2
Like, well, we are supposed to provide is within the context of our business goals and growth goals here. Are the consumer. Here's the consumer. Here's a way to influence a consumer. It's not easy because the voice of the consumer says, oh, we're telling you what the consumer wants, where I think in a lot of ways what we need to go to leadership with is, hey, here's how you influence consumers.
00;30;28;13 - 00;30;45;19
Speaker 2
This isn't what they're telling us like. But we've observed that. We've seen what they're doing and we've seen their behavior we hear what they're saying. And based on all that, here's what we need to go do to influence them versus voice of the consumer, to me feels very passive of like, well, here's what consumers are saying. Here are things that are going on.
00;30;45;19 - 00;31;17;29
Speaker 2
There are times for that. Again, I'm not trying to be dismissive of any element of it, but when you think of like being high performing and impactful to the business, that's the thing. So yeah, if people are looking to get into insights, that's where I sit like go like think of it as a strategy function. Think of it as, you know, how do I, you know, how do I hone that sort of strategy and the other thing I'll say, you know, with, with that too is, you know, and we walk that talk here.
00;31;17;29 - 00;31;40;23
Speaker 2
Like, I'll tell you, we have people on our team from supply chain who've come over from finance. We bring people in from R&D. There isn't a pathway of well, no, we hired people that had this specific sort of thing yeah. To me, it's more of like showing natural curiosity and a passion for giving a crap about the end product.
00;31;41;18 - 00;31;51;14
Speaker 2
And, and we'll get you there. We'll help you get. It's not a really I didn't give a very good answer to trying to get in the industry.
00;31;51;14 - 00;32;05;05
Speaker 1
No, I mean, it's a tough question, though, like I'm asking you to essentially, you know, help somewhat a young person like map out how they get to kind of where you are and there's no one size fits all.
00;32;05;11 - 00;32;06;28
Speaker 2
So there is a.
00;32;06;28 - 00;32;23;18
Speaker 1
Tough question to answer. I mean, if someone asked me I actually just spoke to someone recently who is in her final year of university and she was like, I want to do what you do, you know, like in ten years, 12 years, like, what do I need to do? And I was like, I mean, I did a master's in English.
00;32;23;18 - 00;33;06;26
Speaker 1
I thought I wanted to be a professor. Like, I don't know, I probably didn't do it right. You know, there's no specific route. And so I think the context out of that curiosity, that intellectual curiosity that you spoke about is is really important. I mean, when we think about not so much the entry level people, but maybe senior staff, like what characterizes a really strong insights person, you kind of spoke about about it with that brand equity example of, you know, someone who comes back having sort of dug through the research and showed a curiosity about how this might impact the business or how you could look at the research differently.
00;33;06;26 - 00;33;14;16
Speaker 1
But, you know, a senior researcher or senior insights person, what characterizes a good one?
00;33;15;19 - 00;33;47;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. To me, the research becomes second nature. You know, it becomes the the how we get to the thing. But great research partners you know, people on our team that have been super successful, they're simply business leaders. That's it's not even being insights leaders. It's not me. And it may mean maybe that sounds obvious or but but it really is true that we're not waiting to be asked to conduct research.
00;33;47;02 - 00;34;10;25
Speaker 2
We're not waiting for leadership to say, hey, what do consumers think about this? If we're in a meeting, we are empowered to a to a person to say, if we're in a meeting and we hear something that's off and it doesn't even have to be about the consumer right. I think that's a big thing, too, is it's not.
00;34;11;13 - 00;34;15;16
Speaker 2
Oh, hey, you're representing the research incorrectly. This is actually what we heard.
00;34;15;16 - 00;34;16;11
Speaker 1
It's right.
00;34;16;18 - 00;34;43;28
Speaker 2
No, like even more broadly of we're presenting this creative idea and here's a representation. It's like, well, I disagree, you know, and it's not even necessarily about disagree. A lot of times it's about agreement, but it's about raising your voice not just to represent the consumer or the data or the research, but to represent the business like indeed, our tool for doing that is different than a design person's tool for doing that.
00;34;43;28 - 00;35;17;21
Speaker 2
It's different then, you know, the finance teams tool for doing it. But I do think within insights that we tend to be, you know, much more than, you know, again, a finance or a supply chain or a marketing function. We almost feel like our role is to represent this specific thing versus a real insights leader. Has almost grown past the, you know, the project management of it and is into like the what does it take to grow this business?
00;35;17;21 - 00;35;18;21
Speaker 2
Whatever it takes.
00;35;20;02 - 00;36;01;20
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's, it's interesting because when I used to work in sales, I was selling to insights folks at like CPG companies and agencies. And if you got like a marketer especially at an ad agency or like a creative agency, if you got a strategist or a marketer in the room, they'd often almost act like, you know, insights was the last port of call that they had to like get the, you know, the check mark from and from what it sounds, what you're saying is essentially that like, that's such a horrible way of looking at what insights, you know, what insights can do.
00;36;02;05 - 00;36;06;19
Speaker 1
And hopefully it does keep moving. And that I mean, that could have been just my experience.
00;36;06;19 - 00;36;32;15
Speaker 2
But no, no, I mean, I it's it is it can be I'll tell you, not every team I've worked on has been this way I've worked on teams that started that way and we built from it. I've been in awkward conversations with agencies where they were surprised raised. We were speaking up when we were speaking up. I have gotten very weird, like, why is this person in that meeting?
00;36;32;15 - 00;36;51;02
Speaker 2
We're not discussing the research. Oh, so sort of look. And but that's the partnership that you build with your marketing peers where if you build a relationship as someone who delivers the data, then they're going to bring you in when it's time to talk about that. But if you're, you know, how do you build those relationships? I build those side conversations.
00;36;51;02 - 00;37;13;08
Speaker 2
You know, when you afterwards talk about things that aren't just, well, this is what the report said. It's let's just talk about the strategy and what we're trying to do and everything we've learned. And you're going to build that trust of like getting back to kind of the original the consiglieri idea of, you know, always having that person by your side to be like, hey, hey, just remember to keep this.
00;37;13;08 - 00;37;33;20
Speaker 2
And you're getting you're getting a lot. And us having that ability to be in their ear to remind them of like, well, no, these are the things we learn and this is what's going on that happens through the relationships you build outside of other reports. And and again, part of our job is to provide clarity of like, yes, this method is good or not.
00;37;33;21 - 00;38;05;15
Speaker 2
Right? Because again, yeah, yeah. And especially when you're a younger professional, if you want to get back to like what it takes a younger professional, you, you need to learn how to use the tools. Like again, you can only be a great architect if you understand the limitations or the purpose of what can possibly even be made. And so there's a lot of you know, you spend your younger years, you know, getting to know and partnering with and getting deep into the methods so that later on, like I said, it just becomes more second nature.
00;38;05;15 - 00;38;21;19
Speaker 2
So you're in a meeting, it's like, I don't know, there's something about this I don't like. Let's move on to somebody else. But the real meat of what we provide as as leaders is, isn't that necessarily it's more it's looser and it's more strategic in nature.
00;38;23;10 - 00;38;45;06
Speaker 1
Oh, Doug, this has been so enjoyable. I'm I'm aware of time. So I'm going to throw out a really random question that I did not put on the run of show but if you if you could do anything other than like being insights professional, what would you be doing? Like, what would your you know, what would your second life be like?
00;38;46;10 - 00;39;05;21
Speaker 2
Oh, man. Well, so many so many options here. A few years ago, I would have said a writer. I love writing, but probably if I if I could do it all over again, what I would probably do is not go to college and I'd slum it for a few years. I try and be like an improvizational comedian which I know they don't really make any money or whatever.
00;39;05;21 - 00;39;22;26
Speaker 2
No, I just would have I was just scared to do it when I was young. But it's a very exciting and fun thing for me. So I think I probably would have just like gone and, you know, work during the day and take second city classes at night sort of thing and see what I can what I could have done there.
00;39;23;22 - 00;39;30;05
Speaker 1
So in an alternate universe, you could have been like rubbing shoulders with Tina Fey and Amy Poehler.
00;39;31;09 - 00;39;42;28
Speaker 2
I mean, yeah. I mean, I guess I mean it if it all worked out but hey, but hey, I actually did work. It did work.
00;39;42;28 - 00;39;43;24
Speaker 1
Did it work?
00;39;43;24 - 00;39;51;15
Speaker 2
It didn't go. So I mean, this is you know, this is pretty good. I'm certainly not complaining.
00;39;52;16 - 00;39;59;22
Speaker 1
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today. I will catch everyone next week. Hi, Doug.
00;40;00;01 - 00;40;00;16
Speaker 2
Thanks for having.