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Through in depth conversations with a wide range of guests, Solving for Joy explores the idea that we are always trying to solve life's equation for maximal joy. We'll discover what constants are actually variables we can change and have a lot of laughs along the way. Dr. Chrissie Ott brings a coaching lens, experience in healthcare, entrepreneurship and creativity to the table. We hope this podcast is a tool for many to reclaim delight in their own personal and professional lives!
Becoming Love: On Grief, Death & What Remains
August 26, 2026 / 42:51 / E86
Chrissie Ott MD (00:00)
Today's episode is going to be a little different.
You know that Solving for Joy is a podcast about joy, about meaning, alignment, and delight. And even though we've said it many times over many episodes, grief is not distinct from joy. And it happens that a week ago today, my mom graduated from this plane. She left her body with peace and ease early last Monday morning.
And as divine timing would have it, I am sitting down today with someone who has spent the last 10 years helping individuals and families navigate death and meaningful goodbyes.
We're going to talk about the relationships between grief and joy, ritual, storytelling, self-expression, and what it means to be held through loss. And maybe what a willingness to look at death can teach us about how we want to be alive.
Chrissie Ott (01:00)
You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott, a multi-boarded integrative physician and professional certified life and career coach.
Chrissie Ott (01:10)
This podcast is about joy, what it means, how we find it, and the creative ways people are solving for it in their
Chrissie Ott (01:17)
own lives.
I'm so glad you're here.
Chrissie Ott MD (01:20)
For those of you listening, this is Madison Kubler, who is a death care specialist and death doula with a decade of experience helping families navigate death and those meaningful goodbyes. She also happens to be a theater artist, director, and soundscape designer in Denver with a special passion for telling stories for and by the LGBTQIA community. And she recently won a Colorado Henry Award.
Award
for excellence in theater, which is absolutely awesome. Madison, we don't know each other well, but I'm gonna let our audience in on the fact that we met as I was doing death care planning for my mom about four
Madison (02:02)
Yes.
Chrissie Ott MD (02:03)
months ago, and I had no idea that we would be sitting down for this conversation at this time.
Welcome to the podcast and thanks for being willing to come have a conversation with me here.
Madison (02:15)
Thank
you so much for having me, Chrissy. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure to get to meet you and yeah, timing is everything, isn't it?
Chrissie Ott MD (02:23)
It really is. I shared with you in the pre-record time, I'm always so nosy and curious when people have a surprising job title, which is maybe not surprising to many, but I find working in death sometimes still to surprise me. So how does a Madison who by the way shares a name with Elizabeth Kuppler-Ross? Any relation?
Madison (02:50)
Not that I know of. that would be very ironic, yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (02:52)
Okay, talk about that would be wild. And by the way, yeah, so
how what are the threads that landed you here?
Madison (03:01)
It's so interesting. it depends on the day. You know, when somebody asks me this question, my answer varies a little bit. But I'll t today.
Chrissie Ott MD (03:07)
Okay, great. What is it today?
Madison (03:10)
I so I actually went to college for theater. That's why I have a a passion for theater. I I graduated here in Denver from a four-year program, and I thought I was going to probably continue pursuing theater in school. And I
It took me a little while to get through school and during that time I was working in Denver. and I just got to a place where I love theater, it's a very hard world to break into. And I got to a place of finding myself needing the what we would call kind of the essentials in life, insurance, a steady paycheck, things that you know, always kind of dissuade us from pursuing sometimes our passions.
But it o opened up a very interesting opportunity because when I was nine years old, my father died. very unexpectedly. He was only thirty. And I'd always been morbidly curious, I would say, about this world of of care and funeral directing or you know, cemeteries. I don't know, I'd just always been that kind of like odd macabre little kid who every time we drove by a cemetery, I'd
What's that? Like can we Yeah, yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (04:15)
What's in there? Can I go look? Yeah.
Madison (04:19)
so it was always at the forefront of my life. And so when I decided I was gonna make a little bit of a career change and kind of look for something a little bit more stable in that moment, actually advanced planning came up. pre planning is kind of what we called it at the time. We were advisors and so I found
this this company that's local to Denver that's been in in the area for a long time and started working for them and just really fell in love with it. I think my story resonated with a lot of people because I talked to a lot of people who were in their, you know, 70s, 80s and and they just they didn't want to talk about it. They said, I don't want to talk about this. This isn't fun to talk about, which I totally understand. but I said, please, let's please talk about it.
and so I shared my story, not in the sense of trying to guilt anyone, but just trying to show that that's reality sometimes, as sometimes unexpected things happen and it's a thing that has shaped the person that I am today. And so that's how I got started in the work is just kind of not a fluke. I was looking for something meaningful, but wasn't necessarily looking for this work, and as soon as I found it, it it just made sense.
I did that for about five years. And then about five years ago, actually during COVID when it was at its height, I decided to make the switch over from pre-planning to what we what we call in the in the business like at need. So I became a funeral director. I decided I wanted to learn the other side of the business where I was sitting down with families and on their worst day. a lot of them not planned, some of them were, and you know the stark differences and seeing that.
But really showing them the way and and hopefully providing like a little bit of peace and comfort in that moment. my passion was taking that burden off as much as I could. Anything I could do to make it a little bit simpler that day, which I know nobody wanted to see me or talk to me or be in that building, if I could bring just a little bit of peace that I knew I did my job. So that was a a little roundabout way of saying how how I got here.
Chrissie Ott MD (06:17)
Thank you for sharing that. I hear that doing this work is meaningful to you and it's aligned and I hear a heart of service. Like I want to be of service to these painful situations in part because it's like reaching out to help my family when I was younger.
Madison (06:33)
That's exactly right. you can't distance yourself that much from the situations ever when you've been through it and when your family's been through it.
And so I always have that lens of this could be my family. I wanna treat them like they are or treat them like, you know, I am in their shoes and and what would what would be the most helpful in that moment.
Chrissie Ott MD (06:52)
Yeah. as a physician and as somebody who has worked a lot on how to be deeply present with people as a coach as well, I really honor and complement the work of presence that deaf professionals cultivate. There was a transport professional who came to pick my mom up.
last week and they just did such a beautiful job with their body language, with the you know enough, not too much words with deferential, with reverence. Like this is something that has obviously been modeled and taught and practiced and cultivated. And I just really feel like naming that and thanking all of all of the death professors
professionals out there who embody that skill.
Madison (07:49)
Think that means a lot. it's it can sometimes be something that's a little hidden. The the what we do is a little behind the scenes and so hearing that's right. That's right. I say
Chrissie Ott MD (07:57)
It's supposed to be invisible. If you're successful, people don't even notice. Right?
Madison (08:03)
that all the time. I I totally agree. But I'm glad you had a good experience with the transport person and it's the little things, right?
Chrissie Ott MD (08:10)
I mean I just I do have a knack for noticing. and I I don't even know the company they were with, but I feel like reaching out to just give some kudos 'cause they did such a great job. They were warning about, you know, we have to use some plastic for hygiene. It will make a crinkling sound. Like they were preparing every single step. it was so thoughtful.
Madison (08:35)
I
well, and I I think people who go into this work that to me that's trauma informed care. It's leading with trauma informed care. This
Chrissie Ott MD (08:42)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Madison (08:44)
is what you're gonna see, this is what you're gonna hear. it's so important and it's something that a lot of people don't get when they are pushed into that world because we're often pushed we don't wanna be there, right? We're often pushed into it because of something that's happened, a loss.
And so having somebody who takes the care to say, is what you might see, this is what you might smell, this is what you might hear, gosh, I think the preparedness is so important.
Chrissie Ott MD (09:11)
Yeah, and then consent. There's options like you're welcome to help, you're welcome to be in the room, you're welcome to not be in the room. All of the things. one of the fun parts about having your own podcast is you get to talk about whatever the hell you want to. And I I just have I have a desire to to share some of this stuff about my mom's death in in this platform.
Madison (09:38)
Yes.
Chrissie Ott MD (09:39)
so some of it's gonna be for people who knew and loved my mom and you know, she will have a celebration of life at some point talking about that. That's not what this is.
But it was such a good death that I feel it's almost a responsibility on my heart to share some of the components that created a good death for her, that it might help
Madison (10:02)
Please.
Chrissie Ott MD (10:03)
others. So my mom was ninety-four when she died, and she had been leaving us in increments for several years, both physical and mental. The chart says Alzheimer's, but
probably accurate is vascular dementia and really like post-anesthesia brain trauma to an elderly person that had multiple back-to-back anesthesia events.
Chrissie Ott MD (10:31)
Part of our story is that seven years ago we were rescued in a flood in Texas from my mom's front door in an inflatable police boat, ferried to the middle of the road where we loaded into a pontoon boat, were boated through the neighborhood to the back of an army truck and then taken to a Red Cross evacuation station. And six days
Madison (10:53)
my gosh.
Chrissie Ott MD (10:53)
later, my mom moved in with me in Oregon for good. So I was able to provide care for her.
These last seven years because of a natural disaster. And, you know, there's so much more to that story. It's definitely not the point, but it was such an elegant solution to an elderly parent who probably didn't need to be in their home anymore. Elegant, not easy. And she had a fall, you know, within that first year or so, which resulted in an amputation and then being bedbound and had all
of these all of these incredible difficulties, which because my mom's character was so optimistic and sort of indomitable, she took most of these things better than the average human probably could. So sometime in late 2021 is or late 2020 is when she first moved into a residential care home.
And so we were receiving really excellent care in this particular care home.
And she was completely dependent for all of her ADLs, but had no pain, did not experience her life as suffering. She experienced all of this as peaceful. And while she didn't have a lot of words very often, she could answer reliably yes or no questions and said thank you and love you and hi. And was just content.
So even though this care was intense and costly, it felt so good to see this person aging until she was done, you know, like she wasn't
Madison (12:33)
Yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (12:34)
ready to go. And like the people that you mentioned earlier, she was not wanting to talk about it, even when she could talk about it.
I would try to open up conversations. You know, I have some advanced training in palliative care and I support, you know, complex, medically complex kids, especially around end of life and decisions. So it is it's not foreign to me to have those conversations. And I would try to introduce the topic and she would just be like, No, I'm pretty much just focused on living. I'm like, okay, I hear you. I will follow your lead. This is your journey.
I think that's one of the things is just knowing that I let her lead and that I advocated
Madison (13:15)
Yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (13:18)
strongly when system factors were a bit apathetic about responding to her needs because she was quite elderly and fragile. I'd be like, Well this she does still actually need the LASIKs. Let's find the dose that works, you know. And that's not easy and it's
Madison (13:36)
Right. Was she always such
a uplift like positive person, like positive presence even when she was younger?
Chrissie Ott MD (13:45)
Yes, and
Madison (13:47)
Mm.
Chrissie Ott MD (13:50)
yes, absolutely. She
Madison (13:50)
We all have that, right?
Chrissie Ott MD (13:52)
was Pollyanna, she would have very you know, she was a social worker by trade, so she would extend herself to her clients in ways that probably would not be recommended if you were writing a manual of boundaries for social workers. So you
Madison (14:09)
Yes.
Chrissie Ott MD (14:10)
she loved people deeply and she would give
a lot. And if s something felt unjust to her, she was quite a character and would be very spicy. Very spicy also.
Madison (14:21)
Good for her.
Chrissie Ott MD (14:24)
But one of my friends offered me a this poem by
Hayden Caruth that George Saunders quoted at a graduation some years ago. And the gist of the poem is that as you age, you know, if things are going well, you're basically becoming love. And it one line in the poem is I'm almost all completely love now. And I feel like my mom used all of this time to just keep coming closer to being completely love.
Madison (14:54)
Wow, that's amazing.
Chrissie Ott MD (14:56)
What a legacy, right?
Madison (14:58)
Totally.
Chrissie Ott MD (15:00)
I will also share that I had the opportunity to do a sacred medicine ritual the week before her death. And I did work in that space of telling my mom that any residual karmic obligation was completely released.
obligations are over, like and if it is okay if you want to go, it is okay to go. you don't have to stay for me.
Madison (15:32)
Right.
Chrissie Ott MD (15:32)
And I feel slash know that the work in that space also had something to do with her timing, that it took her a few days after that and she was like, Okay, I feel complete
Madison (15:46)
She heard you.
Chrissie Ott MD (15:47)
now.
Madison (15:48)
Yeah. I I think that's so interesting. I you know, we we talk to a lot of people who work in hospice and palliative care just in the work that that I do. And the amount of it's interest like the amount of sometimes I don't know if control is the right word, the amount of autonomy that people sometimes have in those in those last moments or last weeks or last months,
is is amazing. and maybe they don't seem coherent or maybe they don't seem like they are, you know, that might not be as communicative or something like that because it's towards the end, but that it's still it's still happening for them. And I'm sure hearing those words or sensing those words to her was so peaceful and so inviting in a way of letting go.
Chrissie Ott MD (16:37)
In a way of letting go and noticing that there's there's more grace than actual grief and there's more sacred than sad here. And how lucky, how lucky to have a parent this long and to live
Madison (16:52)
That's right.
Chrissie Ott MD (16:53)
so well and to think, Yeah, death is not always tragedy.
Madison (16:58)
That's right. That's right. I think we forget that. It's easy to forget that and and our examples that we're given are not always positives and yeah, I I that's a really unique way of putting it. But I wish more people knew that you could have good deaths. 'Cause I think fear drives a lot of behavior around the subject matter.
Chrissie Ott MD (17:20)
Yes. And the you know, the sweet intentioned folks who you know make understandable assumptions about a bereaved person's experience of of death. that's so interesting. I'm not experiencing this as pain. I mean there is sorrow, but it feels really holy, you know.
Madison (17:45)
Of course.
Chrissie Ott MD (17:46)
It feels like yes, they will have there will be cries. I wouldn't be surprised if I was moved to tears just talking about it today. But they're whole like they're holy tears. They're not like I'm gonna Yeah, they're different. And I keep looking for that swallow you up kind of grief. Like, isn't that supposed to be what happens? And it's just not it's just not what's true for me in this moment.
Madison (18:11)
Right. And who knows, like down the road it could show up as something different, you know. It could show up in five years. It could show up in ten you know, like grief is the
Chrissie Ott MD (18:15)
Absolutely. Yes. All of the above.
Madison (18:22)
least linear thing that exists probably in the entire world.
Chrissie Ott MD (18:26)
Yes. Speaking of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross,
we gotta go back and s reminder, like it's not so orderly. It's
Madison (18:31)
And see if I'm related to her.
Chrissie Ott MD (18:34)
not so linear, it's not so orderly. There's not a a process that everybody goes through. more of a scribble than a line.
Madison (18:40)
Right. That's right. And I I think it's important for
people to remember that and give themselves some grace. I've had, you know, experiences in the arrangement rooms when I I don't work in person anymore, but when I did work in person with families, you know, they would say, I'm angry in this moment or I'm I'm I'm happy that they're not sup you know, they they had different and in that moment that was what was right. And you never wanted I never wanted to say, Well, you're not
Are you okay? Like they're of course they're not okay.
Chrissie Ott MD (19:07)
Mm.
Madison (19:08)
Like it you know, and so I think that's just a really important part of the grief process, just being in it and also having the people around you. It's probably hard for people to conceptualize maybe having a piece around it, but it's totally part of it and it's okay and it's yeah,
Chrissie Ott MD (19:24)
It's possible.
Madison (19:25)
it's possible.
Chrissie Ott MD (19:26)
The analogy
that came up for me around my mom's passing was know, people come to the hospital with a birth plan and they come to their death maybe with a death plan. Like they and
Madison (19:36)
Mm.
Chrissie Ott MD (19:36)
they may or may not happen the way that you planned them, right? I came to the hospital with a birth plan and I ended up with a C-section and all the interventions that you could have. my mom basically had like a a natural like a instead of a natural birth, she had a natural death, like unassisted.
Madison (19:52)
Right.
Chrissie Ott MD (19:53)
And she just slipped away in the, you know, early hours between cares, having been completely at baseline all night.
Madison (20:00)
I don't I I love that the relational analogy between birth and death 'cause they are very similar. You know, we labor to come into the world, we
Chrissie Ott MD (20:08)
Yes.
Madison (20:08)
labor to leave the world. there's so many similarities. So having that plan, I like that you said you ha you can have a plan and you can can
Chrissie Ott MD (20:14)
Yes.
Madison (20:15)
be set on how you want it to go, but because we live in this world, we know that those plans are always the subject to change.
Chrissie Ott MD (20:22)
Caps we make plans and the universe chuckles.
Madison (20:25)
That's right, that's right.
but it sounds like your mom got to go out the way she wanted, which is kind of the best case scenario, right?
Chrissie Ott MD (20:33)
It it really was. I wanna share with you and with our listeners today too that it felt really important to me and my wife Sue, who was just like a daughter to mom, to sit with her body for a long time.
Madison (20:49)
Mm.
Chrissie Ott MD (20:51)
And we did this also when my brother died. I wasn't able to do it with my dad and she wasn't able to do it with her dad. But with my mom, we spent eight hours with her body and I could have gone longer. Like it was just it felt
so right. I just don't have another word besides right to be there. And, you know, I brought sacred objects and burned sage and rattled things and played music that is like what I would want around my ethereal self as it was finding its way and talked about poa practice and the Tibetan book of living and dying and practices that
might help. I do believe personally that the soul hovers for quite a while around the station of the body as it's doing whatever souls do as they separate. but we just, you know, touched her, held her heart and kissed her head and forward forehead to forehead and I I mean, there's just nothing it felt like nothing macabre about it. It just felt like
simple and beautiful to spend a last few hours with this body that gave me life and cared for me all these years.
Madison (22:06)
That's right. I think it's one of one of the
most natural things we can do. as society, like in the last, I would say one hundred years or so, just like as we've industrialized and changed the way that we do things, we've taken that away from people. so when we call on it and we're comfortable in it, which is a a a thing I think that like taking away the dying in the home process has
Chrissie Ott MD (22:29)
Mm.
Madison (22:30)
given us is uncomfortability with
being around a a dead human body. But it's so beautiful and it's so once you are there, it it feels like the most normal thing in the world to me. And I know I'm I know I'm speaking from a place of where I speak from.
Chrissie Ott MD (22:42)
Yeah.
Madison (22:47)
but I love that you got to do that with your mom and and and be with like you said, her her vessel that that carried you. Like that's amazing. that's really, really sacred and special. I I did the same thing with my grandmother who passed a few years back.
I don't know if she would have liked it. She was
Chrissie Ott MD (23:03)
Fair.
Madison (23:04)
pretty traditional and I'm from the I'm from the south, originally and so my southern family was all there and I I'm sure they thought I was pretty woo, but I came in after she passed. I I wasn't there, I was there the whole time. And then the the moment she passed I wasn't. I went home to like take a nap or a shower, you know. Yep. And when I got I
Chrissie Ott MD (23:21)
Such a common story, right? It's the story.
Madison (23:26)
got back she she had just gone.
And and I said, Okay, well I I wanna do something and anybody who'd like to participate is welcome. But there's no pressure like giving people this option, right? 'Cause it it it's can be scary to people who aren't used to it. And I think my entire family, like there were probably twenty of us in her hospital hospice room, and we got washcloths and we got hot water and essential oils and I told him I was like, This I mean this goes back to
Ancient texts, the Bible, ancient texts in Judaism, like we took care of our loved ones and we're not washing them because they're not clean, we're washing them because we love them and like it's sacred. And so we washed and I I could see the hesitancy that some of my family members had g wash away. As soon as they started touching my our grandmother, our her their mother and doing those washing and and this ritual and we anointed her with oils and just
talk to her, like you said. it was so cool to see the layer shed off of people. to see that it's it's not a scary thing. It's the most normal thing. And we smelled up the whole hospital with the essential oils. Just they
could smell it all down the room. We we use so much. That's right. That's
Chrissie Ott MD (24:45)
Frankincense and myrrh.
Madison (24:47)
right. But but yeah that
What what a sacred time. Like you'll you'll never get that time back, but you'll never forget it and and what it means and to carry that is is so special. I'm so glad you had that opportunity with with your mom.
Chrissie Ott MD (25:00)
So special.
I am too. And talk about divine timing. If it happened just like two days later or two days before, somebody would have been out of town. In this case, our daughter was actually away at camp. So my wife and I were able to be fully present without caretaking 12-year-old whose heart would have been broken and you know, we wouldn't have been able to hold that space in the same way.
So thank you, Mom, again, for being so considerate and so thoughtful,
Madison (25:31)
Mm-hmm.
Chrissie Ott MD (25:32)
all the things. When we were leaving with her body, taking her out to the vehicle, I looked on the digital wall clock and it was 444.
And I don't know if you have ever used a pager because you're a couple decades younger than me. But in the in the olden times when we had pagers, sometimes we would text each other one four three, which meant I love you.
And four four four then would be love, love, love. And I was just like, This
is this is just a little signature, this is a sign off from my mom saying love, love, love.
So now
I will think about her every time it's four forty four I catch it on the clock
Madison (26:16)
That's amazing.
Chrissie Ott MD (26:18)
and I offer that to anybody who just needs that for their heart right now.
So one of the things that prompted us to schedule this chat, I think, Madison, was also that
What we did in our pre-planning with mom is relatively novel. It's increasingly something that people are aware of, but not everybody has an option for. And it's composting one one's human remains, whether self or loved one. and I don't
Madison (26:50)
That's right.
Chrissie Ott MD (26:51)
think we need to get like way deep into the weeds about it, but I I just so appreciate the guidance and the path to have pre-planned.
And to not be making decisions in the moment of her passing about where would she go and what sh she would do highlights our greenhouse gases are massively reduced compared to cremation and other chemical pollutants from in-ground burial and
Madison (27:22)
That's right.
Chrissie Ott MD (27:22)
and just like becoming something that continues to nourish this world.
feels like such a blessing. So I'll just ask you share from your experience with that process what it's what's it like. What do you think people like to know about it?
Madison (27:40)
Yeah,
I'm really glad you brought that up because, like you said, it is newer, a newer form of
you know, giving our bodies back to the earth in a a more holistic organic way, in my opinion. and I think for most people it it really comes down to whether it's you, the person that's planning for a loved one, or it's the person planning. I talk to people all the time, we're planning for themselves, have a diagnosis, or they're just planning for the future. and just having control over, you know, we over what we're gonna make those decisions about and
Composting is such a cool option because are multiple things that have, you know, negative impact about traditional burials. We're talking about harmful embalming or cremation. a long time, those are our only two options. And so that's what people were making those decisions and cremation.
Chrissie Ott MD (28:30)
Yeah. And no judgment to
self or other who have engaged in all of those things. That's just what we no. No right or wrong here.
Madison (28:35)
Absolutely not. No. And that's how I started my career. Yeah,
I started my career offering those services and and they are so they can be so meaningful as well. if you think about kind of the environmental impact, that's really where to me composting, things like that green burial come into play. just being a little bit more careful because
we will eventually run out of space. We will eventually run out of resources. takes a lot of resources for the kind of more traditional options. And so I like that this is less so about the scarcity mentality. It's it's it's about abundance to me. It's about
Chrissie Ott MD (29:11)
Mm-hmm.
Madison (29:12)
we're creating abundance, we're creating through like composting, you know, we create all this extra soil that can go back to the earth, which we desperately need, especially in places
California, where I live in Colorado, we need healthy soil. That is kind of the bedrock of everything for how we sustain life on the planet. And so finding an option like that, I know I'm I'm a nerd and I can talk about it all day long, but it's so cool. It's
Chrissie Ott MD (29:38)
But
Madison (29:38)
it's so cool that we're finding these other alternatives. And now that we know we can we can have more options. because for some people I had I had a friend
Tell me not too long ago. She said, Well, I I like the thought of being buried because I want to be like the ancient Egyptians and have somebody dig me up and know what society was like. I was like, That's cool. I like that. We all have our
Chrissie Ott MD (29:58)
That's right. My own time capsule.
Madison (30:01)
That's right. We all have our own like internal importance meter of of and comfort around the subject matter. And I I truly believe that people should do what makes them feel comfortable.
and what makes their soul and their mind, you know, gives them peace. but it's just cool to have extra options now.
Chrissie Ott MD (30:20)
It is, it is.
Madison (30:21)
Yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (30:22)
I am planning we'll see if, you know, my plans come to fruition, but my hope is to actually drive up to the Auburn, Washington facility with a truck and bring back all the soil that my mom creates and have a dedicated butterfly garden. Like this is where my
Madison (30:39)
I love that.
Chrissie Ott MD (30:40)
mom rests and know, can talk to her and
share that soil with other loved ones and see her continuing to be a blessing in the world.
Madison (30:50)
That's right. I love that so much. Yeah, I hope, you know, if you feel comfortable documenting or taking photos, you know, of that process, it'll be really special.
Chrissie Ott MD (30:59)
I like that idea. Yeah.
Madison (31:01)
I I like the I like
the possibilities it opens up for people of things to do and ways to memorialize. know, it's a lot of people don't go to cemeteries anymore. I I think cemeteries are the coolest. I old cemeteries. If I go if I'm
Chrissie Ott MD (31:14)
Mm-hmm.
Madison (31:15)
in a foreign country, I'm finding the old cemetery. Like that's like my favorite thing to do. yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it.
Chrissie Ott MD (31:18)
Really? It doesn't occur to
me. Do you go do etchings and stuff? Do you like that? Or is it just being there?
Madison (31:23)
I just love
going to be there. I love reading the dates, I love reading the names, I love taking photos. I just there's something about I'm a big history nerd and I I just I just love soaking up kind of that very peaceful, calm energy. But just as a society, like we're we're transient, we're spread out, it's harder to make that happen. You know, my father's buried in Arkansas, I don't live in Arkansas anymore.
think about like how often that is somebody's circumstance. And so to have something like this where can have a place, maybe it's at a family home or maybe it's in a potted plant that you, you know, take with you wherever you go, there's a lot more possibility.
Chrissie Ott MD (32:03)
My dad's buried in Mississippi, so we've got that in common.
Madison (32:06)
Yeah.
I do I do visit, but I I can't say that it's the most fun visit that I have in the during the year.
Chrissie Ott MD (32:15)
Yeah.
Madison (32:18)
That's right.
Chrissie Ott MD (32:19)
Yeah.
what is something that you have found surprising or that people find surprising about entering this work?
Madison (32:29)
that's such a good question.
I wouldn't say people find it surprising that it's very difficult. but I think people don't always understand the impact that it can have. were talking about your mom being a social worker and you know, it's very easy to give your whole heart to these families and not have anything left when you get home. And I talk to a lot of people who are either they're going to mortuary school or they're
looking at, you know, a career in funeral service, funeral directing, something like that. which is, you know, this is an a a required field in order to be in this line of work, even with green options. You it's still very heavily regulated. We must have licenses and things like that. And so it's an important step even if you want to be in the green spaces. they'll call me and and come to me and say, What is it like? And I probably am not the best person to talk to because I'll say it's really hard.
really freaking hard. and if you can think of doing if you have other aspirations think really hard about it. Yeah. I know I I
Chrissie Ott MD (33:29)
Check those out too.
Madison (33:33)
don't know if that's it that makes me a bad you know, representative, but I just want to be honest with people. It's a challenge. it's one of the most challenging things I've ever done and it's also very rewarding. And like you said, I I believe I was put on this earth to
to serve people in in some capacity and right now it's it's this way. and it's hard. So that's not it's not surprising, but
Chrissie Ott MD (33:55)
And it's hard. These are all true at the same time.
Madison (33:58)
it surprises people. If that makes sense. It's
Chrissie Ott MD (34:01)
Yeah.
Madison (34:01)
surprising how impactful it is.
Chrissie Ott MD (34:03)
Thanks for that perspective. I my brain goes to thinking, mm, that might limit the time one is willing or able to spend in in a career like this. So I I wonder if that occurs to you sometimes.
Madison (34:19)
I
think that's true. I think especially people facing roles like I used to be in consistently. family facing in person, know, the type of work I do now that I'm able to do with, you know, being home, I find it a a huge privilege. getting to s talk to people and and still be of service to people from home. being in it and experiencing not only the the trauma that the family's experiencing, but also working with the loved ones.
and in you know, taking on some of their pain. It's it's it's hard. It's hard work and so I think some people are yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (34:49)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for doing it and may you have good energetic
hygiene. so
Madison (34:54)
Yes.
Chrissie Ott MD (34:54)
that you separate that connection from from what you need left over for yourself and your loved ones.
Madison (35:00)
That's right.
Chrissie Ott MD (35:01)
Yeah. what do you think makes for a meaningful goodbye? Is there something, you know,
that thematically stands out to helping people when they are creating a meaningful goodbye.
Madison (35:19)
I think it's so personal to every individual. But to me, the word that comes up when you say that is essence, like bringing the essence of the person forward. if you think about you know, what's important to you why you're here on this earth, and I you know, I I want that to to be shown in some capacity when it comes to remembering me. And I I don't believe that everybody needs
a service necessarily. I don't believe that everyone needs like, you know, kind of the traditional church or temple or anything like that, you know, space to hold it in. But ritual. I believe in ritual. And ritual can look like sitting around your dining room table. it's intentional. but finding that essence,
Chrissie Ott MD (35:59)
Yeah.
Madison (36:00)
you know, telling stories about your loved one and making sure that they are present with you. and
that it's that like momentary thought of like, gosh, they would love to be here. They love to like be here with us right now. That to me
Chrissie Ott MD (36:12)
Yeah.
Madison (36:13)
is what makes a meaningful goodbye.
Chrissie Ott MD (36:15)
I'm thinking about, you know, the rituals in my my immediate family's deaths. So friend who was like a brother died by suicide in two thousand fifteen and
We had two ceremonies. One was a small one in Oregon and one was a a larger one months later in Texas. And I think the smaller one in Oregon around our kitchen table was actually the one that felt the realest to me. And for my mom's what's what I'm realizing is that I'm gonna invite everybody to wear purple.
Madison (36:50)
Love that.
Chrissie Ott MD (36:51)
And we'll probably eat some of her favorite foods and then kind of hold it like a Quaker meeting and let people just take turns standing up and sharing when the spirit moves them.
Madison (37:02)
Yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (37:03)
She was not Quaker, but I like that.
Madison (37:06)
I do too. I do too because it's You're embodying this like sense of like it's a peaceful type of ritual, but it's also it seems like very appropriate to what your mom what your mom would have liked to possibly be a part of as well.
Yeah, ritual's so so interesting because we have I think a very limited idea, like I said earlier, about what it looks like, but it can look like sitting at our kitchen table, being alone.
Chrissie Ott MD (37:29)
Can look like just lighting a candle.
Madison (37:31)
That's right. That's right. So yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think that's really, really beautiful.
Chrissie Ott MD (37:38)
What else must be said about joy and grief in the business around death?
Madison (37:42)
Gosh, joy's everywhere in in the business of death. I I know that that might sound like an oxymoron, but it's so true because
you do have these moments where you're like, gosh, I can't wait to get home and kiss my partner. I can't wait to get home and put my face on my dog's face and go outside and walk in the hundred degree heat.
Chrissie Ott MD (38:08)
And so grateful
to still be in my body and have these experiences of being a living being.
Madison (38:13)
That's right. That's
right. It makes the little things just so sweet. But you have to you like you were talking about, like you have to practice that good hygiene because it's easy to get out of that rhythm. once you're in that rhythm of gratitude and also just presence, of thinking, Man, this life can be tough, but this this is pretty great too. yeah, it's I
Chrissie Ott MD (38:34)
It is
Madison (38:35)
and I wanna speak really quick too
all of the people that I've worked with in the past, you know, at my at my current place at at the at the funeral homes in person that I've worked with and these people they pour their hearts out and and also we're like we know how to laugh and be goofy. Like it's so important. think this is a thing in healthcare. I think this is probably a thing, you know, for people who have tough jobs you gotta
Chrissie Ott MD (38:58)
Yeah.
Madison (38:59)
you gotta have fun. You gotta be able to joke around and we are pros at that also, just being the silliest people.
Chrissie Ott MD (39:05)
I love that that there is silliness. I I had a little flashback to Gross Anatomy Lab, you know, where there are heavily embalmed bodies being dissected, which is a really important part of a clinician's
Madison (39:19)
Course.
Chrissie Ott MD (39:19)
training. But
for most of those, you know, young adults, I almost said children, like they're babies, right? And most of them have not spent time around a body, much less open it up to see how things work. and it's really different than being with a loved one who has passed.
Madison (39:41)
It is.
Chrissie Ott MD (39:41)
But
it is such a jolt also to be like thrust into the face of mortality in those moments. And people do deflect and use humor and sometimes more or less appropriately, you know, with varying degrees of appropriate respect in my judgment. and yeah, I hope that that
continues to get really clear attention from those who hold that space for learners. my mom really wanted to donate her body to science. but Texas to Oregon paperwork, I was just like, I'm sorry, this is actually gonna happen this way, mom.
Madison (40:21)
Yeah.
Chrissie Ott MD (40:22)
And I know you don't mind anymore. I know that she's been telling me since I was probably seven, I don't care what you do with my body because I won't be there anymore.
Madison (40:29)
yeah. That's right. I hear it every day,
multiple times a day.
Chrissie Ott MD (40:36)
Yeah, so bad. It's almost a punchline.
Madison (40:41)
Well, you talk about joy, you know, in in passing, I don't know there's I don't know if you've experienced this yet, but there is almost like sometimes you're so exhausted in the moment of you've just experienced this loss, you're so exhausted, you haven't slept, you your brain's not working on full capacity 'cause you have grief brain and every once in a while things like seem in like
funny or or silly that absurd, like that that absurdity kind of slips in, the giggles and everything like that. So find that to be an interesting
Chrissie Ott MD (41:07)
Giddy, yes, yes, yes.
Madison (41:13)
part of grief that I I find really fascinating because our human brains can only take so much and we get to a point where we're like slap happy and like, what is what are we doing anymore? That's right. That's right.
Chrissie Ott MD (41:23)
Yes, we have to break the taboo glass.
This is absurd. there are definitely
Madison (41:29)
That's right.
Chrissie Ott MD (41:30)
moments like that with my brother for sure. Like, this is what we're doing. Okay. This is what we're doing.
Madison (41:36)
Okay.
Chrissie Ott MD (41:38)
I'm so grateful to have had this conversation with you. Thank you for being here. Thanks for being a a skillful conversation partner as I got to tell some of the story about my mom's passing. I really appreciate that, Madison.
Madison (41:52)
Thank you
for sharing it. I felt really lucky to get to be in this space with you while you while you spoke about your mom.
thank you so much for this and thanks for having me.
Chrissie Ott MD (42:00)
Thank you so much.
For being with us today for this conversation. thank you to the hundreds of people who have reached out and sent messages of care during this time after my mom's passing. It means so much to be able to share it with you and to share a little bit about her with you all today and the legacy that I'm so proud to be a part of. If you would like to learn more about human composting, we will leave some information.
in the show notes about that. In the meantime, keep solving for joy. Be well. And we'll see you next time.