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Chasta and her guest Sara, a former school counselor and lifelong dancer, discuss fears about the “destruction of dance” driven by competitive dance culture, social media algorithms, and pay-to-play systems. They argue dance’s proven benefits for learning and emotional regulation are being overshadowed by stereotypes that dancers aren’t smart, amplified since Dance Moms and modern content trends. They critique competitions for escalating costs, confusing adjudications, lack of regulation, and incentives that tie self-worth to trophies, while providing little accountability for inappropriate music, costuming, and choreography. They describe a feedback loop where dancers, parents, and studio owners privately wish they could quit competing but feel trapped. They advocate for human-centered, values-driven dance education and meaningful performance opportunities without competitions.
00:00 Viral Cost Joke
00:47 Why Dance Matters
02:49 Stereotypes And Perception
03:57 Algorithms Vs Science
06:02 Dance Moms Fallout
07:27 Pandemic Fueled Competition
08:34 Pay To Play Awards
10:37 Why Compete Debate
14:36 Competition Trap Loop
19:42 Social Media Distortion
20:46 Better Paths To Perform
21:40 Value Over Trophies
22:11 Accountability in Dance
24:14 Paying for Mentorship
25:14 Viral Culture in Class
27:27 Brand Voice and Groupthink
30:11 Fixing It Through Education
34:00 Performing Without Competing
36:24 Why We Left Competitions
40:50 Human Centered Dance
Creators and Guests
What is Nobody Listens to Chasta?
What happens when someone says the things everyone else is thinking—but nobody is willing to say out loud?
Nobody Listens to Chasta is a counterculture podcast hosted by entrepreneur, speaker, and author Chasta Hamilton. With humor, candor, and unapologetic honesty, Chasta tackles the uncomfortable topics shaping modern life—from youth sports trophies and toxic achievement culture to entrepreneurship, parenting, grief, addiction, and the pressure to conform.
Drawing from her experience building Stage Door Dance Productions, founding Girls Geared for Greatness, and writing books like Trash the Trophies and Handle the Horrible, Chasta challenges systems that no longer serve us and explores better ways to live, lead, and raise the next generation.
Expect bold conversations, unconventional perspectives, and thoughtful debate designed to inspire healthier, happier, and more intentional lives.
If you've ever questioned the status quo…
you might be someone who actually listens to Chasta.
05 - Nobody Listens to Chasta
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Sara: [00:00:00] The like the one that's really popular right now is like the, for $27,000 a year, you too can watch your child on stage for three minutes.
Like it's just, it's almost like people are trying to make light of it because they feel so uncomfortable saying that it's wrong,
Hey everyone, hopefully you're still listening. I'm Chasta, and this is nobody listens to Chasta, and today I am talking about one of the ideas that no one has listened to for a very long time, and that is my fear about the destruction of dance [00:01:00] and I fear this is happening because of so many different things, and I have a wonderful guest here to share those ideas with you. And I wanna start off by saying that dance is so special to me. I think it has the power to change the world. I think it has the power to help humanity. I think it has the power to help children.
Chasta: So I believe in dance and I want it to succeed. And there are some things that are happening that are making that progress a little more challenging here today with me. Is my dear friend Sarah, you know her many credits. I could say them all to you, but you've probably already heard them. Do you wanna give them to everyone in a nutshell?
Sara: In a nutshell? Sure. So, um, I have known Chasta for many, many years. I am a former school counselor, certified national counselor, um, and I am super excited to be here again.
Chasta: Also a lifelong dancer.
Sara: And a lifelong dancer. Yep.
Chasta: Lifelong dance participant, dance educator, choreographer.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: You have participated in competitive dance?
Sara: I have. I grew up competing.
Chasta: You have choreographed competitive dance. Yep. You stood by me as we exited competitive dance. I
Sara: did,
Chasta: and that's something that I want [00:02:00] people to know is that we have seen. Kind of all different sides of this dance space. Yes. And there are so many times, especially recently, that something will happen and I'll just be like, oh, dance is better than this same, or, oh, this is not what I want parents to think dance is all about.
Yes. And that messaging seems to be getting louder and louder and especially sucked into our algorithms, right?
Sara: Yes, a hundred percent.
Chasta: And I think it's really important we have this conversation because so many people see this one tiny glimpse into dance. It's not the truth of what dance can be or has the power to be.
Sara: Yes. And I think that's important too when you consider, like with our kids and as we're entering parents' fears and listening to like saying, you know, my kid dances and just gauging those reactions. I think it's just so important to have this conversation.
Chasta: So important. And you know, I've been at tables where I will share what I do.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And people will say, oh, I would never want my kid to do that.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: Or I'll say what I do and somebody will [00:03:00] say, oh, it must be such a nice little hobby.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Or I'll say what I do and somebody will be like, well, I would never wanna do that, because that's not what smart people do.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And that's, that's so wrong.
Sara: Yes. Actually, it's funny that you say that because, um, just this past week my kids were playing outside with their n with the neighbors and. You, the topic came up on what do your parents do? And um, my youngest son said, oh, well, my mom teaches dance. And one of the neighbors said, oh, well she must not be very smart then.
Oh. And so it goes down to, you know, like, what are the kids hearing? What is the perception right now?
Chasta: And why, why is that? And
Sara: why
Chasta: exactly why something that has been around since the ancient times. Yes, Plato. All of my, my, my stoic philosophers that I love. Yes. Aristotle, you know, they all have pieces on how key dance is to the success of humanity.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: So why have we stupefied it? Why is it, you know, why is this happening?
Sara: Yes. And it's something, you know, you are seeing the research. Recently there was [00:04:00] a big study that came out about how dance. Um, helps with autism. Yeah. And, you know, helps with the movement. And it was a very recent study that came out.
So the science is saying dance helps, but the algorithms are giving an entirely different story. So
Chasta: Yeah. The algorithmic prisons Yes. As we often talk about. And that's such a good point because there are so many neuroscience studies Yes. That say like, for example, tap dancing helps with early childhood literacy.
Yes. Um, with, um, depression, emotional regulation, literacy, writing, math. The scope of how dance can help the human is infinite.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: So we have to get rid of this. Smart people don't dance.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: That is number one. Correct. 'cause that is not true. I'm a proud nerd.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And there are so many I am
Sara: as well.
Chasta: And there are so many dancers that are really proud nerds.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And I encourage if you dance and you're academic and you love thinking and having conversations, like be proud of that.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And where do you think that stereotype like. Where's it from? [00:05:00]
Sara: So I think a lot of it is coming from what the public sees dance is. Um, and I think, you know, a lot of this came back to when Dance Moms aired.
Chasta: I was about to say, there is a TV show that a lot of this can be traced back to.
Sara: Um. That has changed the perception of dance and then just right now, the social media. So you see so much of like if you want to be a serious dancer, you have to drop out of school, you have to homeschool, you have to travel to all these conventions, all these competitions, and I think that that's getting correlated with the devaluation of academics and mm-hmm.
The fact that dance is essentially, you're not gonna get a good education if you're committing to dance.
Chasta: And that's so fascinating. Yes. Because as we know, when you start reading a lot of the scholarly research, a lot of the academic studies that are happening surrounding dance. There's so much insight to gain.
There's
Sara: so much. Yes.
Chasta: When dance is leveraged appropriately. Yes. But I think this, this kind of middle ground is that we're not using it to its fullest potential.
Sara: Correct.
Chasta: Or some places may be sane that they [00:06:00] are, but aren't actually upholding those standards. Yes. And so I wanted backtrack it a little to dance moms.
Okay. Which I watched it when it first came out. Did you? I did
Sara: too. I did
Chasta: Because we didn't really know better.
Sara: No, it was, I mean, I drove in college to watch a live filming like. Yeah. It just, it was what it was.
Chasta: Yeah. And you know, it was kind of that whole series of like the early days of, so you think you can dance Yep.
And then came Dance Moms and we had the studio at that time. And you were there and we were competing And there was a shift.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: There was an undoubtable shift.
Sara: Absolutely.
Chasta: Um, of this, let's not be a unit together, but let's fracture. Yes. Let's divide, let's be very ego driven.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And, and that was challenging to watch.
Sara: It was.
Chasta: And we also had to pinpoint what was the problem. Like we were seeing the symptoms, but we had to get to what was the problem of why was this happening.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And what did we trace it to?
Sara: What did we trace it to?
Chasta: We traced it to the dance competitions. Yeah. And the environment that it was cultivating.
Um, [00:07:00] and I, you know, trash, the trophies, the book that I wrote, I wrote it, you know, pre 2020. It came out in 2020. That's now been over half a decade.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: I thought there weren't gonna be competitions after the pandemic, so I thought maybe I just wasted writing the whole thing. But instead, the fascinating thing is the competitions and the problems that they seem to create have only intensified and revved up.
Would you agree?
Sara: Yes. And I also sort of have a theory for that too, so I'm so glad. Oh yes, you said that.
Chasta: Please.
Sara: Um, because I think a lot of the pandemic showed that. You know, studios were switching to online, um, and people were taking classes online and I think that that played a big part in people saying, oh, we don't need to train at our studios.
We can train with these online studios and conservatories and go to competitions and conventions independently. And I think that that has really upped the. Competition game, I would say.
Chasta: Yeah. The The competitive sphere.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: The fascinating thing is so many people know that this is [00:08:00] not the way even people inside the machine
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Know that this is not the best pathway for what dance can produce. And interestingly enough, there are so many facets of the competitive experience that do not match the actual industry itself.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Like there was a, a social media post that was really popular the other week that was talking about how are there 10 people in a top three?
Sara: Yep. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's just not how life works,
Chasta: because if you're casting for three parts, you're not gonna cast 10 people for three parts.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: Like that just doesn't make sense.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And I think, you know, one of the problems is this idea that the competitions promote of that it's basically your pain to your, it's a pay to play.
It is to promote self-worth.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Something that shouldn't be extrinsically motivated. That should be intrinsically motivated.
Sara: Correct.
Chasta: But how do you gauge that self-worth? Because the adjudications have become so extreme and expanded so
Sara: insane.
Chasta: There's the adjudications. Then beyond the [00:09:00] adjudications, there's the levels.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And then beyond the levels, there's the ages. Yeah. Where it sometimes goes down to half an age.
Sara: Correct.
Chasta: Then there's the point scale. There's the lack of standardization. Mm-hmm. There's the lack of regulation. So for parents, I think they're looking for something tactile. Like when you go out on the soccer field, you know what's happening.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: When they step into a dance competition, they wanna know what's happening, but the reality is they cannot know
Sara: exactly.
Chasta: Even people that experienced it for years. There were times when we were like, what does this mean?
Sara: Right. No, absolutely. I mean, I remember when I was growing up competing, it was like bronze, silver, gold, like those, those were your adjudication options.
And now, and like that wasn't that long ago. Like I am a lot older, but it was not that long ago. It
Chasta: wasn't like 80 years
Sara: ago. No, it was not 80 years ago. And now it's like, you know, you get like a. Triple sprinkle heart, purple diamond. Like, it's just, it's crazy. You just don't know what these things mean.
Crystal. Yes.
Chasta: Double diamond.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Titanium.
Sara: Yes. And [00:10:00] they, they can all sound the same, but they all mean different things. Re regard like based off of where you are.
Chasta: Yeah. And also what level you're in. And also if you're in the seven and a half year old jazz dance to a high energy song category. Yes. Where you may be the only one, right.
And then you're still getting titanium blitz, but are you actually achieving?
Sara: Right.
Chasta: It's it's a sense false of accomplishment. Yes. Because what is the accomplishment?
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: The accomplishment is that what performance offers the child.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: Which is. Incredible.
Sara: Yes. And this, so this brings me, I actually brought some notes today.
Chasta: Alright.
Default_2026-04-30_3: Um,
Chasta: Sarah is the data queen love. So she's here to
Sara: drop the data. I love
Chasta: data, data drop,
Sara: love some data. Um, so I was actually looking at, um, a competition Dance moms forum and someone asked like, why do you compete? So I thought it would be kind of fun to just sort of go through some of these things and say like, do we need competition to actually.
Chasta: Yeah,
Sara: achieve this. So the most reported one that I saw was my child loves to perform. [00:11:00] Mm-hmm. You don't need competition. Competition.
Chasta: You don't need competition.
Sara: You can
Chasta: perform in so many different places and spaces.
Sara: Yes. Um, life lessons, including perseverance in school. The fact that life goes on if you make a mistake and that you can be happy for your friends if they achieve something that you don't.
Those are all things you can get through performance without competition.
Chasta: Yeah. I mean, even rehearsal arguably are, I mean, pro process over products.
Sara: Yes, exactly. Yes, absolutely. Um, it is an easier transition to college if you're on a dance team with people who share a love of dance. Mm. I'm not sure I'm quite following that because, and I, and I do think, I do think this gap between competitive dance and where do you go above and beyond?
Interesting. Yes. Maybe that's
Chasta: a whole other,
Sara: I think conversation might be a whole other, yes. Okay. Um, this one I thought was really interesting and I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this. So, um, they provide parent education at competitions that highlight the why, including confidence, speaking up, teamwork, winning and losing gracefully, making new friends and learning new tasks quickly.
Chasta: Yeah. [00:12:00]
Sara: But is it the competition that teaches that? Or is it the dance education that teaches that? Right. And I, you know, I thought it was interesting that. Competitions that you're paying to go to are having staff stand up there saying why their competitions are great. Right. Um, because this is a, a, a weekend experience Correct.
Versus a year long and be gone. Training program. Yes. All right. This one, I know that, um, you're gonna have a reaction to this one, so. Okay. I'm ready. Um, better training is for the competition kids.
Chasta: Oh, yes. Oh yes. We love that one.
Sara: We love that one.
Chasta: Um, only good dancers compete just like all dancers are not smart.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Um, this is, this is something we have to break down it.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: We have to normalize. Not participating in dance competitions as a successful pathway for dance, for life, for everything.
Sara: Yes. Agreed.
Chasta: Why is there this resistance to it?
Sara: Well, let me tell you.
Chasta: Is it propaganda?
Sara: So, [00:13:00] so in that same thread, interestingly enough, someone commented and said, I am a competition judge.
And quote, every working dancer I know competed as a kid.
Chasta: Hmm.
Sara: So I think that that's, it's interesting that there is this association with, you have to compete in order to be successful within the dance industry. And that is what is leading to better training. I don't know. I don't, I feel like dance education is good.
Dance education.
Chasta: Yeah.
Sara: And whether you wanna dance one hour a week or 15 hours a week, the training that you receive should be good quality training. Correct?
Chasta: Yes. And with that idea, that's why we don't have recreational and competitive at the studios. Yes. We have good training.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And there is, you know, the, the ROI of of the training.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Like what are your goals? Yeah. Right. If, if you have a goal to be a Rockette and you are 15, one hour of training a week may not get you to that goal.
Sara: Correct.
Chasta: So there is this level of like input and output when you're considering what's happening.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: But so often and in this competitive space, you know, [00:14:00] there will be a group and maybe they learn one single dance for the whole year.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And they compete that. It's like, for me, what are the learning outcomes?
Sara: Right. And why? Like
Chasta: what's the why?
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: That's, you know, when we, when we did this big overhaul at the studio, we landed on four values, right? Technique, performance, community and character. And everything we do has to tie into those four things.
Yep. And so I feel like it is created a heightened awareness of intentionality. Mm-hmm. Of, of like, why are we doing this? So that's what I always encourage people to ask the questions. And some of the things you were talking about with that feedback. Made me think of this feedback loop that we kind of witnessed when we were working on the trash, the trophies, white papers.
Yep. So this was 2023. They're still available to download if you're interested in, in reading about them. To our listeners, if you're still listening, um, they're out there. But you know, one of the fascinating things in the interviews we were doing at that time is. Dancers that had left the competitive dance experience said that they wish they had [00:15:00] never competed.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: But they didn't wanna tell their parents because they knew how much money their parents were spending.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And they didn't wanna disappoint them. They didn't wanna tell their dance teachers because they didn't wanna disappoint their dance teachers or their studio owners.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: The parents were saying they wish they had never competed.
They were spending so much money, but they felt like it was something that their child loved. Yes. And they wanted to support their child to the fullest of their abilities. Yes.
Sara: And they felt there was no other option. That
Chasta: was a big one too. So many of these choices are made out of love for the child.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And then you had the studio owners who were all saying, I wish we could not do dance competitions, but I feel like I would lose my clients if we didn't.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: So you have a community. Everybody's feeling like maybe this is something I don't wanna do.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: But they feel locked.
Sara: Yes. Trapped. Yes.
Chasta: Because there is this level of, um, this is a very negative term and I'm not sure it's the right one, but it almost feels like the competitions are like a parasite on the dance studio.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Because they rely [00:16:00] on the dance studio to succeed.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: But when something goes wrong at a dance competition, is it the dance competition that's blamed or is it the dance studio?
Sara: Right. And it's usually the dance studio
Chasta: from our experience, yes. It is usually the dance studio.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And, and it puts the dance studio in a very helpless position.
Sara: It does,
Chasta: because you are relying on a third party that you have no control over whatsoever.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And that's very scary when you're running a business. Yes. I can tell you there are lots of big businesses in this world. Whose success is not reliant on a third party that they have no control over. Mm-hmm.
So if you are a dance studio and you are solely reliant on the success of dance competitions to be viable, I would look for other ways.
Sara: Yep. For sure.
Chasta: So, so, okay. So that's one. So what I'm hearing is we're feeling like dance competitions are contributing
Sara: to, to
Chasta: the destruction Yes. Of dance.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: They're, they're chipping away at the integrity.
Yes. And [00:17:00] it's almost, I feel like when they first emerged as we were discussing, it was much simpler. Yes. What they have become is a monolith. Yes. It is a multi-billion dollar industry. Mm-hmm. And many dance studios are not multi-billion dollar businesses. No. I would argue,
Sara: and when you look at the tuition of, or what people are spending in tuition, because I also looked at that as well.
I would say a majority of these insane numbers are going towards competitions and not back to the studio.
Chasta: Yes, because the competitions require the studio serve as the middle person. Yes. Between the parent and the competition, which also takes accountability away from the competition.
Sara: Correct.
Chasta: You know, we can talk about all of the little details of the pain points, which a lot are in trash.
The trophies and a lot are still true to this day. Mm-hmm. If not worse.
Sara: If not worse, honestly.
Chasta: If not, not worse. Yes. I feel like I could do an updated [00:18:00] edition that. Really leaned into a lot of the things that we've heard.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Um, but it's, it's true. And, you know, one of the decisions we stepped away is we were looking at these invoices.
We didn't even have children at the time, but we were like, if we had children, we would not feel comfortable spending this dollar amount, this much amount for this return.
Sara: Yes. Yeah, I agree. And it's just, it's then you're factoring traveling and hotels and it's the amount. Of money that could be used on training and supporting local studios that's going out is actually, I would say majorly contributing.
Chasta: Yeah.
Sara: To the destruction of dance.
Chasta: Yeah. And this perception?
Sara: Yes,
Chasta: because going to a dance competition every weekend, if you are resume stacking, which we've discussed in previous episodes, we have. Dance competition adjudications are not stacking your resume.
Sara: No.
Chasta: Because what does it mean that's, that's my thing is like, what does it mean?
Sara: Right.
Chasta: Anyone can pay to play to do this. Yes. Anyone can actually buy a [00:19:00] trophy at the competitions.
Sara: Yes, they can.
Chasta: You don't even have to do a dance and earn it. Right. You or me could walk in and purchase one at the merch table.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: One of the things that really jacked me up before we left competition was the Kindness Award emerging.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Because I was like, why do we have to award kindness? Right. Because, you know, the intent was people would be nicer to each other. Yeah. But we like, no, the world is not going to get a trophy in the morning to wake up and be nice and
Sara: be kind.
Chasta: We should be kind intrinsically, not because a dance competition is giving us a trophy for being kind.
Sara: Yes. And I mean, that's also arguably a problem that people were being so unkind that they had to do a kindness award.
Chasta: Right. That's a great point.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: So we know what this looks like in the room.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And you have the dance competition piece. Now the dance competition piece has bebop its way into digital reality.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: So that's a huge perception point, right? In the destruction.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Because [00:20:00] what are people seeing on social media? I know you're always sending me these things and you're like, here's another one. Here's Mess. I'm another one.
Sara: Yes. The like the one that's really popular right now is like the, for $27,000 a year, you too can watch your child on stage for three minutes.
Like it's just, it's almost like people are trying to make light of it because they feel so uncomfortable saying that it's wrong, which I think is really interesting. Yeah, I want there to be more education about the actual [00:21:00] value of dance. Yes. Because it's not those three minutes on stage, it's not right.
Chasta: Like that's not what it is.
Sara: Which is interesting because when people are saying why they compete, they're not saying it's for the three minutes on stage. They're saying it's for the experience for all of these things. So I guess it's really what can we do as an industry to stand together and say. This is not what you need.
Like we can come together to provide these experiences in a way that's better. And I, we do such a great job at Stage Door doing it.
Chasta: Mm-hmm.
Sara: Um, but then I knew there's a whole population of people that think that what we're doing isn't what you're supposed to do to be successful.
Chasta: Yeah, that's true.
Because it hasn't been normalized. Right. And that's what I'll always say is it's okay. It's okay to do things differently.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: It's okay to try something that others haven't done.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And you know, and I think I. I think back to the last few years, like post pandemic for our students. Like how many times they've been in New York performing at Carnegie Hall.
Yep. Performing at the Grand Ole Opry, performing [00:22:00] in Rome, Italy, going to perform on a cruise this summer.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: Those experiences, they're priceless. They are. They are priceless experiences. Now we still have an incredible standard of excellence in place. Yes. And it's so important and because of that standard, we're able to create.
Genuine artistic pieces Yep. That aren't modeled
Sara: Right.
Chasta: For the pay to play. Right. Competitive space.
Sara: Right. And honestly, like our families are paying less for these experiences than you would for a three minute dance at a competition, and you're getting 30 minutes of stage time on a Royal Caribbean cruise like.
I mean, it's just the value,
Chasta: right? And it's, and it's what is prioritized. Yes. And I think there are so many people itching and wanting to help the solution. There are so many people, you know, this year especially I have, I'm seeing it over and over of when is there gonna be accountability for inappropriate music?
Yes. Inappropriate costuming. Yes, inappropriate choreography. The issue, and I think this is why there's like a frustration is. The [00:23:00] pendulum has not swung
Sara: no
Chasta: to correct itself in any way whatsoever. Mm-hmm. Instead, it's become even more deregulated.
Sara: Yep. Well, because it's
Chasta: never been regulated. So even more unregulated, I guess.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Well, you have these
Sara: competition convention owners saying, this is what you need to do to be successful. Here's the opportunities we provide. Here are all of our successful alumni. This is what you need to do. And I think that those voices are louder than.
Chasta: What we are currently getting from local studios.
Well, I've even seen some of the convention, longtime convention owners posting videos saying that the trophies don't matter.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: So if the trophies don't matter
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: You don't really need to compete. Right. That's what they're saying. Right. Even though they're providing a competition.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: But they are, they themselves are also saying you can succeed.
Yep. Without trophies.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: That is a huge conversation point right now.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: But they're also not providing accountability. Right. On the inappropriateness. Right. Which is now trickling into the [00:24:00] studios and the parents, and I do believe that's another full circle accountability opportunity. Mm-hmm.
Everyone needs to say this should be family friendly.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Period.
Sara: Yes. And but I think that that has to come from literally everyone. Yes. Because I think the other thing that we're seeing now is that if you don't agree with the choreography or what you're getting at the studio, or you don't think that you're being trained to win, for lack of better terms, people are just hiring.
Choreographers to choreograph. What is it like through Zoom to go compete independently. Yes. Right. And like so there, there's a way to get what you want and there are people who will provide exactly what you want. And I think that that's also part of the problem
Chasta: that kind of made me think about these celebrity mentorships
Sara: Oh yes.
Chasta: That are now in existence. Mm-hmm. That didn't used to exist in the dance space. What are your thoughts on those? Maybe just describe what they are of people. Don't know what they are, so I actually just became aware of them pretty recently.
Sara: Yeah. So, um, and [00:25:00] I don't think it's just in dance, I think it's actually pushing into extracurriculars too, but there are services that will match you with, um, either really well-known people in your industry or people who have been very successful in your industry and you can pay to have them mentor.
Your child's
Chasta: pay really high amounts.
Sara: Very, very high amounts. Yes.
Chasta: Like some of the monthly fees that I was noticing in the dance space would match multiple months of tuition.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Of like multi-hour a week training in a studio.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: So that's another thing is just because it's digitally being labeled as fun or cool, or this person has a lot of views or likes, views and likes, do not equate to training.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: I think that's really important. I
Sara: think it is too,
Chasta: because I also have, you felt the shift in the industry, arguably maybe another example of the destruction of wanting the dance to be about, this is almost like dance on stage for a trophy, but dance to be a content clip.
Sara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even in like in [00:26:00] the classrooms too, like in the studios we're dancing combos to go viral.
Chasta: Mm-hmm. That's been a big conversation point with a lot of studios in New York and la mm-hmm. Of what is the place of cameras in the classroom. Yep. Like you used to, you know, could go to the city to take some classes and maybe you would push yourself outside of your style because you wanted to be challenged and you wanted to grow.
Mm-hmm. But now that becomes a question of. Well, is it going to be at the expense of my reputation because I'm gonna be seen in this video not looking at my performance best.
Sara: Right?
Chasta: But it's really just a clip that is being generated for content for someone else's virtual validation and gain.
Sara: Right? Yeah.
And I think, you know, this is, it's also pushing into like uc studios doing. Certain trends to go viral within rehearsal. So like the one that I've seen recently is the one with the phones. Mm-hmm. And the hammers and you know, making light about like, this is how we get our teens to listen to us. And it's just like, is that shining a positive light on the dance space?
Chasta: Right. Or is it almost [00:27:00] seem like a mockery? Right. And virality is not branding.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: So I always say like, what is the goal of being viral?
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: If the, if the virality isn't true. To your voice, your brand voice, what's actually happening in your walls. I think when people go to a page and space that what they see should be what they experience.
Yep. So some of these trends and you know, over the years I've been presented even from our students, sometimes we'll advocate and say, Hey, could we do this? Yep. And a lot of times I'll say, I'm just not really sure that's in line with what we wanna represent as a brand.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: Um, now the downside is there is less virality.
Sara: Mm-hmm. But then again are, do you wanna attract clients because you're going viral or because they do genuinely want to dance and match your values as a studio.
Chasta: Right. And I think that alignment is incredibly important too. It's, yep. And I think just that awareness of alignment of people. Maybe. You know, the interesting thing [00:28:00] is because of where I am in the stance space is I'll see things from different states, different countries.
Mm-hmm. Around the world. And just because one person does a trend, oftentimes it will be followed by so many others. Yep. Same with these copy and paste templates that a lot of people buy.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Sometimes one place will post it and then you'll see 30 to 40 other studios with the same thing.
Sara: In the same week.
Chasta: Yeah, in the same week. Yeah. Sometimes in the same day. Mm-hmm. And that's not differentiation,
Sara: right?
Chasta: That's not having a brand and a place for children to learn and grow. That's unique to your brand voice.
Sara: Correct.
Chasta: Like you will never see, say, Walmart and Target having the same template mm-hmm. For their marketing.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: So I think that's something that has also. Maybe we're not as aware, but I have no doubt that it has contributed Yep. To the destruction because we're losing unique voices. It's becoming very brand standardized. Yep. And I think there's some people that just don't even know who they are as a brand.
Right. Well,
Sara: you're losing the art.
Chasta: You're losing the art.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And [00:29:00] you're also using losing the business sense as well. Yeah. Because you're thinking. You know, you're fitting, you're just checking so many boxes. I'll do competitions, I'll do the viral trend. Mm-hmm. I'll post the copy and play paste template, but then you're not really running a vision and a brand and something that's unique.
You're just doing it because everyone else
Sara: is doing it, becausecause. Everyone else is doing it.
Chasta: And that's group think. And group think is very toxic. So going on with that social media piece, because I think that's really important.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: I'm thinking back to a time where we had some students that really wanted to do a micd up
Sara: mm-hmm.
Chasta: During class, and that's trendy and that's cool, right?
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: But that is not, that's not who we wanna be. Right. As like a classroom experience. It was a great learning opportunity for everyone to have the conversation of this is a distraction. To learning, right? Because how can you actually be focused on your technical development and progress?
Mm-hmm. If you're worried about content creation at the same time.
Sara: Yep. Well, and I think [00:30:00] also. Specifically with the micd up too, like I know it's supposed to be funny and it's supposed to be like your inside thoughts of what's going through your head in dance class, but like if, if you're on the outside and you're looking to train somewhere, is that the perception that you want of like how these dancers act in class?
That's also true. It's a great point. Yeah.
Chasta: So it it is almost a mockery.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: Yeah. And dance has always had an uphill battle to climb in terms of being taken seriously. Yes. Before dance moms, before dance competitions, before miked up, like before any of this. Right. And I think all of these pieces are just making it even more difficult.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: So, so what can we do? Like what? I mean, I know that we talk about this all the time of like, of like how can we, I mean obviously we are laser focused in our institution Yes. About how can we listen? How can we learn, how can we do when we get things wrong, how can we be better?
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Um, but how can we get others to [00:31:00] join in that and feel comfortable?
Sara: So I think a lot of it comes down to education. Right. So educating parents, um, educating studio owners, um, people who are in maybe studying dance with the ambition to open a dance studio or become a dance educator. Um, I think we have to start there with what is dance? Why are we dancing, and what are your options?
And when you're thinking about this destruction of
Chasta: dance, I think it's important to think about the disconnect.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: Between K 12 dance. Yes. Like in the education system, private studio education.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Collegiate university education and just the general working industry commercial dance. Mm-hmm. Because there's a lot of discrepancy there and I think there needs to be a lot more conversation because if you get in a room, you know, with people from a lot of the higher ed institutions.
They're confused about why competitions have become so prevalent.
Sara: Yes. [00:32:00]
Chasta: Yeah, because it's not, it's creating conformity. It's very homogenized, right? It's standardizing an industry that's supposed to be rooted in unique creative development.
Sara: Yes. And body movement, like just moving your body and, you know, um, expression through the art form I think is really getting lost.
Um, and I know from when we've talked with. Different college professors. Something that they're seeing is that, um, these kids will come in from comp, the competitive dance industry, loving dance, because that's all they've known. That's been their life. They've loved dance. It's their identity. Yeah. They love being on the stage.
They've grown to love dance, which is great. We want more people to love dance.
Chasta: We want everyone to love
Sara: dance. Yes. But then they get into the college environment and, you know, they might declare that they're a dance major and it's completely different. It's, and,
Chasta: and they can't, unlike they've done, they can't adapt is what the professors will say.
Sara: Yes. Yeah,
Chasta: they, they're so stuck in what they've been taught to know
Sara: mm-hmm.
Chasta: As the reality that they can adapt
Sara: Right.
Chasta: [00:33:00] To the more fluid pedagogy Yes. That you see in the collegiate space.
Sara: So, I mean, you might have kids out there who are, you know, busting out. Quads, gorgeous quads, really clean technical dances.
That's a
Chasta: quadruple pirouette for
Sara: anyone
Chasta: that may not, they're not just busting out their quad
Sara: body part. They're their quad muscles. Yeah. Four turns in a row. Um, and they get into the college dance space, having to take, like dance 1 0 1 thinking that they're just gonna exceed and excel. And in reality it's completely different.
It's a different pedagogy. They're shocked. Yeah, they're, they're shocked. It's not something they're ill prepared. Something that they feel comfortable with. They're out of their comfort zone.
Chasta: And do you remember what some of those conversations, what we've learned is a lot of times the professors will say They quit.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: They will quit.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Versus sticking with it and trying.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: So that argument that we're doing this for resilience mm-hmm. Is now one year out disproving itself.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And all of those years of practicing resilience. Have not [00:34:00] risen to the occasion.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And that's concerning. It
Sara: is.
Chasta: And you know, Sarah's been with me in a lot of these spaces where I'll present on this topic.
Mm-hmm. And so this is, this is truly maybe one of the penultimate things that nobody listens to me about. Yes. Or there's always, um, the counter arguments are, are present. Yeah. And I think those are important, right. Because I wanna understand why, why this is still not changing.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And. That, you know, when we get involved in this dialogue where I really am trying to listen and learn and understand, it always seems to go back to children need a place to perform.
Mm-hmm. There are so many places to perform. There are so
Sara: many places to
Chasta: perform. You can perform anywhere.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Um, anywhere, anytime, any place.
Sara: Anybody.
Chasta: Anybody. Yes. And I think that's where we get locked in. And you know, the funny thing about this is another counter argument is often, well we like performing in theaters.
Mm-hmm. We, you can produce a show in a theater at any time. And ironically. [00:35:00] A lot of these competitions are moving away from theaters
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: And into just hotels or fairgrounds or wherever they can find a flex space.
Sara: Yes. And I also wanna say too with, with that argument is, um, well we want to dance like against other, other people.
We wanna see other studios dance. And there are so many levels and. Categories and different variations of competitions that you're seeing a lot of studios now just competing against themselves. Yeah. So you're paying $175 per routine to see your own studios showcase, right. Essentially. Right?
Chasta: Yes, it's so true.
Um, and that's what I love about how we went to the benefit show model.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Like, it's so nice to, to have a professionally produced show. Yes. Just for our, you know, performance companies.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And I do think that performance experience is important. Absolutely. I'm not going to say that it's not, but is it necessary for a trophy?
Is it necessary if you're showing up and you're 80% of the routines that day?
Sara: [00:36:00] Right.
Chasta: Like what? And community and dance is important. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. But you can have community and dance without competition.
Sara: Absolutely.
Chasta: And you see that community, you see it in like the Broadway space, right? Mm-hmm. When people are showing up for auditions, not everybody's gonna get the part, right?
That's a form of competition. Yep. But it's not this pay to play. Mm-hmm. That just feels. Uncomfortable
Sara: it. Yes.
Chasta: A little icky.
Sara: It does.
Chasta: It's also becoming, and I know this is gonna be a future conversation point, but it's consolidating.
Sara: Yes, it is.
Chasta: And it would be remiss not to mention that.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Because as consolidation happens, and we're really gonna get into this in the future, you're gonna see prices escalating.
Yep. And you're gonna see the market shift.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: So in addition to this destruction, we also have some trends happening that are concerning.
Default_2026-04-30_3: They
Sara: are.
Chasta: And we're gonna get to those, not today, but in the future. So I, you know, I'm just thinking back and I'm wondering like, you know, when we left competition 10 years ago mm-hmm.[00:37:00]
Like, what were you thinking
Sara: when we left? Yeah. Well, I'll be the first to say that I was hesitant about it. Um, because that's just, that's all I knew. Well, it
Chasta: was your full-time job.
Sara: It, it was also my full-time job, yes. Um,
Chasta: Sarah was our competition
Sara: team director. I was the competition team director. Um, but it was also like, I grew up very much in a competitive studio of a, if you want to be successful, you need to compete.
I knew from being the competition director that if, um. You know, that's what our parents wanted, so I was hesitant. Um, but once you dive into the wise and the what the benefits are, it makes sense.
Chasta: And it just, it really does just take, pulling back the layers a little. Yes. Thinking through it, thinking creatively.
I always think back, well, there's two times that I think back to when I really feel as though I was at my most tortured at a competition. One as a, as a studio owner. 'cause I also judged for a while too. But [00:38:00] you know, we were at this one and we had started at 6:00 AM. We finished around 12:00 AM. Mm-hmm.
That's a long day. First Saturday, a day.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: I remember having my arms out and like 25 trophies in medals. Right. Because everyone else had gone home. Yep. So we were left there with a sprinkling of other people. And I remember one of our families, very genuinely and organically wanted to take a photo and I could barely even hold my eyes open.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: And I was, and in that moment I was like, what are we doing
Sara: Right.
Chasta: Parents do wanna be proud. They do wanna see growth. And in that moment I was like, I'm about to fall on the floor. This can't be the best way for this.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And then time went forward that night and we had to be back there at 6:00 AM Yes.
So we were at our houses for five hours. Yep. Before we were back for another 12 hour day.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And then I think about another time at another one, and at this one I had pink eye. Do you remember?
Sara: Maybe, well,
Chasta: I had pink eye. I'm, I, [00:39:00] I was able to be on about, about, had my glasses on. Yep. And, you know, and it was another one of these like 18 hour days and, you know, we were sitting in there at 11:00 PM and it was the hug Your dancer.
Sara: Oh, I, yep. I Do you remember this?
Chasta: Come to the stage and hug your dancer. And like, that's awkward.
Default_2026-04-30_3: It
Sara: is
Chasta: awkward. Um, and it's just like, why are we trying to force something that already exists organically, right? Like, why are we commercializing to this extent something that can be produced in a very organic, happy, joyful, meaningful, lifelong lasting way, right?
That is going to not have memories. Of my crusty eye and glasses hugging the dancer at midnight, right? Like that's what I remember from that day.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: Do you
Sara: have any, that might be what the dancer remembers too. Honestly. It
Chasta: could
Sara: be.
Chasta: What? What? Do you have any memories from our [00:40:00] days?
Sara: I mean, I just remember, you know, feeling like my nervous system was being chased by a bear.
Chasta: Yeah.
Sara: Sitting through these awards
Chasta: for me. It was the Monday after.
Sara: Yeah. Well, because that's when the emails came through,
Chasta: through, do you remember what we used to do?
Sara: With, with,
Chasta: with, with Mondays.
Sara: What did we used to do? Because clearly I blocked it out so,
Chasta: well, we always knew it was coming, right? Yeah. So we, so
Sara: inevitably
Chasta: back then there was a thing called MO'S Mondays.
Yes. MO'S Southwest Grill. Yeah. And you could get your burrito for like $5 and nine, 9 cents. Yep. And we would go to MO'S Monday. We didn't have off, we, you know, our email and stuff wasn't quite as accessible. Correct. So we'd eat our burrito and then we'd go back to the studio and brace ourselves. For whatever was coming.
Sara: For whatever was coming, if it didn't already come in Sunday On the car ride home.
Chasta: Yes. And the the sad thing is it was parents advocating for their child. Yeah. Which we fully support. Yes. And tell everyone to do. Yeah. They're advocating for their child. [00:41:00] But what we were helpless. Mm-hmm. That was the hard thing.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And it was a, well then why did you, why did you endorse this experience?
Sara: Right.
Chasta: If I couldn't bring my outside food into the convention center, why did we go here?
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And it's like, I understand your frustration as a human.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And that's the thing. This is where I think we need to get, and this is the phrase, humans human centered design.
Yes. Are we creating dance experiences that are human centered or are they something else centered? Mm-hmm. I think that may be the question.
Sara: It might be
Chasta: is that the walkaway question today,
Sara: it, it might be
Chasta: are we creating dance experiences that are human centered? And will human centered dance experiences help with building this perception back?
Mm-hmm. So that instead of this destruction that we're seeing, we're gonna see a renaissance and excitement of everyone dancing everywhere.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: Is it possible? I, I hope so. I mean, one step at a time.
Sara: One step at a time.
Chasta: Right. All right. Well thank you so much for [00:42:00] being on today.
Sara: Yes. Thank you for having me.
Chasta: If you listen this far, we're so glad that you did. Let's get out there and dance. Dance in a human-centered design way. Let's make people know that dance matters, that it deserves to be here, and that smart people dance too. Thank you for being here. Subscribe, keep following us, and if you have had your own competitive dance experience, please reach out.
I've heard every story in the book, and I would love to hear your too, too, because unlike a lot of people that don't listen to me, I do listen to you.