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Bridging the Gap is the flagship podcast of the Greenwood Cultural Center and The Dialogue Studio at Greenwood, dedicated to creating meaningful conversations that strengthen communities, foster understanding, and inspire positive change.
Drawing on the Greenwood Cultural Center's enduring mission to preserve history, honor legacy, and promote cultural understanding, the podcast brings together community leaders, public servants, educators, advocates, business leaders, and residents for thoughtful discussions about the issues that shape our lives.
Through honest dialogue and diverse perspectives, Bridging the Gap explores the challenges, opportunities, and shared aspirations that connect us. Each episode creates space for respectful conversation, active listening, and the exchange of ideas, moving beyond headlines to uncover the human stories and lived experiences behind today's most important topics.
Rooted in the historic legacy of Greenwood—known around the world as Black Wall Street—the series embraces the belief that dialogue can serve as a bridge between people, perspectives, and communities. By bringing together voices from different backgrounds and experiences, Bridging the Gap seeks to encourage understanding, build trust, and highlight pathways toward collective progress.
Join us as we explore the conversations that matter most and discover what becomes possible when people come together to listen, learn, and engage with one another.
Bridging the Gap is produced by The Dialogue Studio at Greenwood, an initiative of the Greenwood Cultural Center.
Learn more at TheDialogueStudio.org.
## Bridging the Gap - Episode 01
All right, welcome in, welcome in, welcome to the Bridging the Gap Safe Tulsa podcast. This is the first ever. We are about to do some really special things.
I am your host, Jonathan Townsend, and it is an absolute pleasure to be here today with a dynamic co-host slash guest slash friend, Deputy Chief of Tulsa Police Department, Mark Warmenhauser. How are you doing today, sir? I'm great, John. It's great to be here.
It is fantastic to have you here. I'm extremely excited to spend a little bit of time with you today and to kick off these series of conversations that we plan to be having ongoing. And so I'm just extremely excited about that.
I also want to make mention of a few things before we get too deep. The fact that this is really being powered and brought to you today on behalf of the Greenwood Cultural Center, a fantastic institution here in Tulsa, Oklahoma that has for years just played a pivotal part in maintaining the legacy and keeping people educated about the history of the African-American culture and especially the Greenwood community. So we want to thank them for the opportunity of just kind of helping us bridge the gap and bring about different collaborations over the last year or so, especially between myself and you all at the police department.
But I also want to shout out Birthright Legacy for allowing us to be in their space today. Can we give them a hand as well, right? Yeah, this is great. I had a chance to come out last a few weeks ago and get a tour of this space and just fell in love with it.
And so I want to shout out Brother Marquise Dennis and everything that he's doing to help empower fathers and all throughout the city and giving them the resources and the workshops that they need to be successful fathers as well. So I just wanted to extend those appreciations early on, but we're really excited again to be able to have these conversations talking about public safety in our community. So I wanted to do, before we really get too involved with policy and things like that, Deputy Chief, just tell us a little bit about how long you've been serving here in Tulsa and what brings us to this table today.
Yeah, thanks. First off, you're already a natural at this, so you've got future prospects in all of this too. But no, I was born and raised in Tulsa, and I've been a Tulsa police officer for over 21 years now.
Loved it, have served in every single bureau of the department, investigations, patrol, up at the academy, and it's just through some blessings and some opportunities over at least the last decade that I think has really brought myself and the department into a lot more of a community connection in regards to our policing. And I think that's how, quite frankly, me and you ended up friends and ended up sitting here 10 years after meeting each other. Indeed, indeed.
Tell us, and it's funny that you say that because, hey, this is kind of rookie season mode for me. I've been in podcasts before. I've never been on the side of the facilitator.
It's a whole different dynamic. I've been the one that's answered some questions, but never felt responsible for keeping the flow. So I appreciate that.
But good deal. Can you tell us a little bit about just your role specifically, like for those who are listening today and don't really understand what a deputy chief is or what that, how that relates to, you know, other officers and where that fits in the department? Yeah, absolutely. So there are about 1,000 to 1,100 employees for the Tulsa Police Department, about 800, 850 of them are police officers.
And there are three deputy chiefs in the entire police department that answer to the chief of police. I am over operations. And so, like I said, there's 850 Tulsa police officers or around 850 Tulsa police officers, about 570 of them wear a uniform on a day to day basis.
And that is who I oversee. And so if you think of the uniform divisions that people go interact with and the officers that respond to help them, but also the support structure of our air support unit, our our canine unit, or if any of you have ever flown out at the airport and you see our bomb dogs walking around, it's that kind of stuff that I oversee on a day to day basis. And it's really the people that have the most interaction face to face with the public.
Once again, all that does really for me is it just makes me like really appreciate the fact that you're here, because I mean you, along with probably just a handful of other people in our city, have to be available at any given moment of the day, like at any given moment that back signal could go off. And then you have to answer the phone and have to jump out and run. And the rest of us just have to understand that you have one of those type of roles.
So again, the fact that you've slowing down just a little bit to be able to sit here, chop it up with us on behalf of the department and talk to me on behalf of the community just really means such a great, great, great a lot to me. So with that being said, what I wanted to do too, just for fun, and we're keeping it real casual and comfortable here. Can you tell the people a little bit, at least your perspective, on just how you and I got to know each other? And I want to see how it adds up and how it matches up with my account of the story too, and see if you remember.
You kind of touched on a little bit, at least being how long it's been. So can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. I do want to go back to your appreciation of me being here, but I do want to say that I think maybe a decade or two ago, we would too often maybe relegate this responsibility down to an officer, a supervisor, right? And while that's great, and you do need to know your officers, they would have to go back.
If you ask them a policy question in regards to, hey, is this something you can look at? There's not that weight of authority behind it, and so they'd have to go through so many different levels of looking into that and asking questions. And so to me and to the command staff of the Tulsa Police Department, it's important that we show up to these things, because we want the community to know that this is super important, and it's so important that the policy decision makers show up, and we are ready to listen, and ready to have those conversations that sometimes are difficult, but we want to be there to hear it and possibly bring some different changes. So anyways, but yeah, with that, about 10 years ago, I had barely been a captain for maybe a year tops, and there was a great opportunity that was put on by Leadership Tulsa called Community and Police Leadership Collaborative, and it brought together officers and some community members around Tulsa to just kind of better understand each other, and I saw the opportunity it was, and I kind of raised my hand and was a friend of mine and invited me into this space, and I was able to learn from so many that were there, but you and I got paired up, because I know you also, I don't know how you got into the mix of that, and I'll, do you remember? You might not remember, but as far as that goes, but if you remember, I used to work for the mayor at the time.
I do, Deputy Chief of Staff, right? Yeah, well, I wasn't Deputy Chief of Staff. Community Development and Policy. That's what it was, yes.
Assistance for Mayor Bynum at the time, and just being at the City of Tulsa and interacting with you guys, you know, at the city for sure, but also through that program, it gave me a chance to kind of see some of the behind the scenes things, and that's how I ended up being able to tap into that program with you, and you're right, they partnered us. We didn't choose each other. They kind of, I don't know, just rolled us out there and put us together, so.
It was, and so getting to know you, getting to grow as your friend, but definitely during that, during that program, it was probably one of the most eye-opening experiences I've ever had, and I attribute it to you, but I also am somewhat ashamed of my ignorance, having grown up in Tulsa my entire life and not knowing nearly as much of Greenwood and the experience of Greenwood and a black community, and so us pairing up, you know, they, if you remember, we each had to kind of give each other experiences, right? Homework. Yeah, that's right, yeah, and you know, I took you on a ride along with, I want to say it was the gang unit, right? Yes, it was. Yeah.
Yes, it was. So. Got the road with the big boys.
That's right, and, but what, again, I took away was when you took me down to Greenwood and we kind of did like a walking tour of Greenwood and went up to Greenwood Cultural Center, but you pointed out to me, because I had driven by numerous times, but I don't think I ever really stopped to to pay attention, and it was the plaques you had pointed out to me and that were in the sidewalk, and then I had always seen the front of that big black marble slab in front of Greenwood Cultural Center, but never had really looked at the back, and it was all those businesses. It was all the things that were destroyed, and I had this visual of it in the 2000s of, well, how could that be? There's this college here and everything, and it was not putting my geography and history hat on of how did that come to be, and so it was very powerful to me and just helped me understand more and more of what the black community in Tulsa had gone through and how much more I need to do as a leader on Tulsa Police Department to make that connection, and I was just so thankful that we got paired up because since then I think we've continued to work on those things. Yeah, and it's amazing, just to think about the intentionality of that program and just how well it actually benefited us.
We can't speak for every couple that was paired up in that group, but I hope everybody's had at least a fraction of the experience that we've had, but we've been able to stay in contact, build other programs essentially, give birth to other programs and ideas because of that connection, and it's funny that you mentioned that because, I mean, what a life-changing experience it was for me, too. The knowledge that I got about the department and the responsibilities that you guys have and the weight of that responsibility, it was just tremendous, and if I can remember, you know, like I said, 10 years ago or so, how naive I was, you know, before that experience. I was just recently in the mayor's office and beginning to get to see some of the behind-the-scenes things, but right before that, you know, I had a very limited amount of knowledge of law enforcement and what all the ramifications were of it, so when they put us together, like you said, and we got to do things like the ride-along, it's funny you mentioned that, too, because I don't want to get into all the details of it, but just being a guy that likes to watch a lot of, like, TV shows, like I watch a lot of cops and some of that, used to watch the live PD and stuff like that a lot, it doesn't compare at all to when you're actually in the doggone vehicle with you, you know.
I was riding along with you and I think the other guy, I can't remember his name, but it was the two of you and then myself, and I'm like, we're about to go do this for real, and everything was, I'm sure the environment was as controlled as possible because you had me. It was. I bet I didn't see everything, probably, that I could have seen, but at the same time, it was very real and there's nothing scripted about it, and you never know how the other person's gonna pop off or, you know, when they're being engaged, because you guys were actually doing your job and checking people and keeping people safe, keeping our community safe, and you just never know how people are going to respond in a moment, and they don't care that you got a guest or anything, but what I will say is, if you ever get an opportunity to do it, I do suggest it at the same time.
If you're a little nervous, then maybe you can just ask somebody like me who's been through it, you know, what it's like, but what an educational experience it was, and again, just helped me to grow my level of appreciation for you all, but just wanted to touch on that a little bit as we kind of get into the rest of it, but I wanted to ask, you know, for you personally, you talked a lot about community already. What has made you so passionate about, you know, interfacing with the community in this special way, and also on behalf of the department, because what we're doing right now isn't necessarily happening in every department throughout the country, and you do, I'm sure you compare and contrast to other departments and seeing what they're doing as far as transparency goes, but a lot of people would, a lot of departments probably would roll their eyes at, you know, coming onto a podcast, you know, a couple of times a month, and think that it's either not necessary or won't be received well, or that they can handle their PR or something, you know, in a more different way. So, why is it so important to you to just break it down and just talk to the people as often as you do? Why is Tulsa positioned to do that? So, I think it's incumbent upon us to counter narratives, because, so, I know if, well, one, I'm a Tulsan, lifelong Tulsan, and so, I am this community, and I want people to know who their officers are.
But so often, if you don't make that outreach, and you don't make that connection, and you don't bridge that gap, then quite frankly, we are going to be portrayed as every other law enforcement agency in this country, and I don't want to be portrayed as every other law enforcement agency in this country, because I've seen the lack of education in some of those departments, the lack of training in some of those departments, and the lack of compassion in some of those departments. And, yeah, and so, if we don't have that connection, then people only can be left to paint us with the brush of the national narrative. And so, it's, we have to get out and explain who we are, just as also when we do that, we get to then understand the community who we serve, and it, and that community is not painted with a broad brush.
It, we actually see everyone as individuals. And so, that to me is why it's so important to get out, to make those connections, because it just helps keep so many neighborhoods much more safe when we see each other as persons, and not as what Fox News, or CNN, or whoever wants to tell us whatever this group is about. No, that's not how it is in Tulsa.
It is. It's not how it is in Tulsa. And, like I said, just from a community perspective, or just as an average citizen perspective, you know, I look at that.
I really value that. I've done some research, and I've talked to, you know, friends and family who live in, you know, different parts of the country, and have even, you know, shared what we're doing right now with, like, friends and family who live in other places, and they're like, yeah, it'd be awesome if our department would do things like that, because we've got a lot of questions, and just don't have an avenue or the space to get answers. And, you know, this is going to give people a chance to just, you know, from the comfort of their home, just tune right in, and hear, you know, about different topics and discussions that are happening, issues that, you know, that they want, and feel like the community might deserve a little bit more insight on.
And we're going to provide that opportunity for them, which is extremely unique, I think, as it relates to other departments. So, shout out to TPD for that. I think one thing that I kind of wanted to do, too, was just explain to the people.
They might be wondering, you know, why I'm sitting here. You know, for sure, we understand why you are. And Deputy Chief talked a little bit about our relationship over the years, and when I did work at the mayor's office, I had a chance to do a lot of interfacing and advocating for the African-American community on behalf of the Biden administration.
And even since I left that role and started doing some other things, you know, you and I stayed in contact and continued to kind of do some things, kind of behind the scenes, at least have, you know, have conversations. And for the last, what do you say, year or so, you know, we've been working on some community relations and community policing initiatives with other wonderful community leaders from the African-American community and meeting at the Greenwood Cultural Center. And something that just kept coming up and coming up in some of the, you know, the workshops that I facilitated for you guys, for your officers and for our leaders was the need for more communication, the need for just more transparency.
You know, this right here is just kind of a ripple effect of that, too. You know, that was something that just kept coming up and over and over and over. And we thought, you know, I think you and I, what was it, about a month or a few months ago, we're having coffee at a spot and just having a powerful conversation, talking about a lot of, you know, relevant things that were happening and things that were about to happen and needed to happen.
And we were just like, you know, what the heck, this is a great conversation. And why don't, why can't we have this conversation in public? Absolutely. Why can't we have this conversation in a way that, in a format where, you know, everyone can hear what we're talking about? And, you know, from that came, it was like, hey, well, let's do the podcast, right? Which was really funny, because, you know, podcast is a very, it's a crowded field these days.
Like, everybody's podcasting about everything. Like, you don't have to have any substance at all to have one or to have a lot of views. That's the, that's the other thing, too.
But, you know, what we're doing is, it's not about competing for views with everybody else or trying to, you know, simply entertain at all. But we wanted to give a space for people to be able to, you know, gather this information, because there are a lot of people in our community who want to know, you know, why you guys do the things you do, why you make the decisions that you make, or have the strategies that you have, and they care. And many of them, you know, there's a lot that they do understand, and there's some things that they don't.
So, this would be a space for that. But again, in the conversations that you and I were having, we were like, it would be awesome. How dope would it be to have a public setting for that? So, you know, and that's, I kind of wanted to touch on that, too.
And as far as the rhyme and reason, you know, as to why we're here, because another thing that we discovered through those workshops that we've been having over the last year or so, was that there's still a disconnect. Like, we're talking a lot, you know, I've given you guys some kudos, you know, and you guys got kudos from the groups that we had. But at the same time, there was a lot of things that people were, you know, still either suspicious about or had, you know, legitimate critiques about.
Whatever the reason is, there was still some disconnects. And I would like to just kind of ask, like, what is some of the, you know, what are some of the reasons for some disconnects? And when I say disconnects, I'm talking about, like, you know, information as it flows out, maybe from you all or about you all. You kind of talked about some of the media outlets already.
And then by the time it gets to the general public, yeah, maybe it doesn't, it's not received the way that, you know, maybe things transpired or, you know, for whatever reason is not interpreted the way that maybe you guys don't. Yeah. So I kind of want to start off with that coffee shop conversation just real quick.
And so, and I know these are going to be ongoing. And I want to talk to people about the success, the little victories, right? Like this. This is a little victory kicking off today.
And when I was a division commander over Mingo Valley Division, which is basically all of our east side, large Hispanic population, I was invited by a community leader to go on Spanish radio every week and go direct with people. And a lot of the Spanish speaking community listens to radio. And I made that commitment.
And once a week we are on Spanish radio. And that has continued. That started in June of 2020 in the height of all kinds of everything going on.
And six years later, we're still doing it. And it's made a difference. We've been invited into congregations when, when something big in the Hispanic community comes up, whether it's immigration or some law or policing, we've made those connections.
And so we are able to go direct and talk as Tulsa police officers of, of relax. We got you. We're here to protect people and make sure nobody's victimized.
And it was because of the little victory of being invited into Spanish speaking radio and, and going direct. And so when we kick this off and the other thing too, was issues, not every issue is the same in every community around Tulsa. We've talked about this, right? Thanks for acknowledging that.
And when you first acknowledged that to me, you know, over a year ago too, I love the fact that you looked at it that way. Everybody's needs are valid. Everyone's needs to be addressed, but everyone's needs are not always the exact same.
Correct. And I think, and I think we, we see that as an opportunity that, yeah, there are, there are some things that, that cut across all, all communities, but if we're not talking about the needs and the relationship of the black community and the police department, then, and we're trying to generalize it, then we're missing that opportunity. And so I think that's what a huge part of, of this is, is, is talking about the, the specific needs of a specific community and how the police department can make that connection better.
And then going towards the, the information and the, and the misunderstanding, I think it's, I think it probably starts with two things. One, has the police department in the past done everything right to, for, and into the black community? No. And, and so, so historical wrongdoings are factual, but then it also becomes this, this, this connection divide.
And so then it just grew and grew and grew. And so instead of when something happens, everybody knowing, Oh, Hey, no, I, I, I trust this person. Let me talk to this person.
Let me find out more. Like there is in a lot of other communities there, there's not, or there's not as strong of one. And it's not as prolific in the black community with, with the police department.
And I think that's what we're, we're trying to grow here too. But there's also just an attempt to, for those who are working hard, who have that great connection with the police department in the community. There's people who attempt to divide that and, and that doesn't benefit anybody.
And so I think, I think if, if more and more connections can be made, then when something happens on the police department, everybody will be able to have that connection and understand either, Oh, Hey, yep. The police are acknowledging that something went wrong and they're looking into it and investigating it. And if, if not, then, Oh, actually, no, I, I know their policies.
I know these people, this, this was okay. There's more to the story than what's actually, than, than what some people are trying to drive that narrative. And I think we are obviously a microcosm of the entire country.
It's easier to get clicks and likes of negativity and divide than it is to come together and get clicks and likes of positivity. Yeah, I think that, you know, I'm thinking back to the, the, the phone call that you gave me. It might've been, like I said, a little, maybe a little over a year ago when, when, when you re-invited me back to some of these conversations and, and this work as far as advocating for the African-American community and, and working in support of the police, the police department and their relations with us.
That's the same energy that you had on the phone that day. Like you hit me up and you were just like, Hey, we, we got some things that we need to work on and some things we want to acknowledge. And, you know, we're not coming at this as, you know, experts on all things black or black public safety.
And we want to bring you in as someone who can kind of help us facilitate some of these discussions and, and arrive at some destinations that we, that we really want to arrive at with the community. So I've always appreciated, you know, your humility and also the departments for realizing that, you know, sometimes you do have to look and look into the mirror a little bit and work some things out. And, and, and, and one of the best ways of doing that is by sometimes inviting other people in.
So I really appreciate that. And I think that that's going to help build trust, but, and that's kind of what I wanted to ask next, which is, you know, what does trans transparency really look like to you and what are some of the best ways that, that we can continue to build that trust in our community? So transparency, I think starts with obviously making sure everyone knows what our policies are. There's a lot of agencies that, that are not transparent about their policies, their, their use of force policy, their, their rules and regulations.
I know some departments that don't even have them. It's crazy. There's 18,000 law enforcement agencies in this country and, and some of them are operating wildly reckless still.
And, and so it starts with everybody being able to turn towards policy and, and look at that and know that those policies are rooted in best practices across the country. Then it's also knowing that, hey, if, if someone makes a complaint that we take it, we take it serious. I mean, we, we have policies also related to investigating those complaints.
Now there are some things that I think the community doesn't always understand in regards to human HR rules and legal rules as to what we can talk about. And I don't know if you had some experience of that in your time in the mayor's office of dealing with some of that stuff. Yeah.
Even, I mean, even outside of that, non-politically, like some of the things I did in education, I mean, when you talk about HR, every, every system has its human resources or it's things that, you know, can't always be openly, you know, as, as broadcasted as, as, as we always would like. Right. Every system has that.
Yeah. Big time. And so while some people want to know exactly what, who, what happened to this officer right now, right now, they want to see it.
Yeah, exactly. If it, if it's not of a serious discipline, because it's, if it's of a serious discipline, it's, it's open record and people can find out what that is. But if it's, if it's a, you need some verbal counseling or hey, you got a department letter from, from us because you, you made it, made a mistake.
Those are the HR rules that we can't just necessarily tell everybody. But then it's also understanding that I, I think one of the biggest frustrations is there is a lot of law surrounding civil service jobs and, and the ability to discipline. Let's actually, here's one.
I thought about this last night is just kind of thinking about where we would be going on these conversations. And so many times you see sometimes leaders advocating for immediate terminations and, and they point to Philadelphia or, or some somewhere else where an officer appears to have made a mistake, not sure. And the next day they're terminated.
What, what they don't know is 18 months later, that officer gets their job back because the investigation wasn't done. There wasn't due process done. And what could have been a meaningful investigation and potential termination to get rid of an officer who doesn't need to be a police officer anymore.
It was perform, it was performative instead of long lasting. And ultimately that officer's back working again. And that's not what the community needs.
And then it also separates the department from moving towards a culture of accountability and towards a culture of transparency. And it actually is just like, oh, well they'll get their job back. And so why, why would any officer change when, when that's what it looks like? Instead, we want to take our time, make sure everything's done right, look into it.
But ultimately if discipline happens, it needs to stick so the public can trust that this behavior has been corrected. Everybody on the department knows this needs to change. And so it's, it's frustrating.
I understand that, that sometimes not all of that can be talked about and open because of HR things, because of legal things. But it's, it's having these conversations and people understanding a lot of times we're, we're guided by law and that, and that's what we have to deal with. Yeah.
And I love that, you know, even sitting at this table here, you know, we can get as close as we possibly can to, to some of those issues. And, and, and as far as explanation goes on this platform. So again, that's just shows again, why, why, how necessary, you know, simple conversations like this will be in a public setting.
So another thing too, I personally really love the trajectory that you guys are taking the culture of Tulsa policing. You know, my, my background, as far as, you know, my awareness goes, it goes back to chief, chief Jordan, chief Jordan, because he was chief when I was in the mayor's office and got to, got to know him and, and, you know, some of the, the others that work, you know, directly with him, Jonathan Brooks or some of the others. And just really was really fond of those people.
And then obviously after, after him came in chief, chief Franklin, and now, you know, chief Larson and yourself are, are, you know, leadership. And I've just kind of had a chance to watch the flow and the culture that you're talking about of building like more transparency. I can see what kind of brick by brick that foundation is being, is being laid.
And I think about, you know, how many times in some of the conversations we've had with community leaders over the last year, a lot of the majority of the, the concerns or the, the communities thing that has been elaborated on, a lot of it comes, you know, prior to that, you know, so in some cases you could be, you know, 10, 20, even 30 years ago, something that happened and, you know, it's, it's still very much relative in, in, in their lives and in their minds. And, you know, they're holding, I don't want to say grudges because, you know, in some cases, some things were probably, you know, extremely, you know, real to them, but, but those, those experiences, even if they were decades ago, are still very impactful, impactful right now. But, and you guys, you know, are doing your best to acknowledge some of that, but I really liked the flow that you guys are taking the department right now.
And one thing I want to be really clear on is, is, you know, deputy chief, when you called me, you didn't call me because you wanted me to just be, you know, approving everything or just supporting everything or, you know, trying to make the department look good in any, you know, unnecessary way. I mean, there was the responsibility for me to, to be, you know, honest about some of the things that I would be sharing on behalf of the community. And if I see something that needs to be, you know, pointed out or, you know, corrected to, to be able to mention that too.
So, you know, I, I appreciate that. And I say that to say that if I saw something or smell something that wasn't right, I would not be sitting here, you know, smiling and, and, and, and acting like everything was good, you know, in between, between, you know, you and I were between, you know, our people in the culture. Because I have had a chance to see the trajectory of things going back to the past few police department administrations, I can say, you know, quite confidently that I see the necessary steps being made to build that better system of transparency and accountability too.
So I wanted to say that right off, right off top, because there's going to be some people who even see this now and they're like, you know, he's, he's, he's, you know, they might have an issue, just the fact that I'm sitting here, you know, talking to you. And, and I want to say that, you know, there was a time in my life too, where, you know, I was not anti-police, but extremely, extremely suspicious. You know, I've, I've been out with bullhorns at rallies and calling for terminations, like you just said a minute ago, so-and-so's got to go and that kind of thing.
But with limited understanding of, of all the issues, because I didn't really get to see the behind the scenes, but now that I do get to see that, I can see that there are some steps that you guys are taking that a lot of departments just aren't taking. They don't, they don't feel the, either the political pressure to do so, or don't have the moral courage to, to just do it on their own, unless, unless pressured to do it. So I can say that confidently today.
And I wanted to say that up, up, up front, publicly. Yeah. And two of the things I want to mention on that is, one, in 1997, we made the affirmative move to fully go with a four-year college degree.
And it has taken, if you think about it, nearly 30 years for us to turn over an entire department that now has a four-year college degree. And I think that's where you also see some of that cultural turn is with education. And we know this throughout the country.
With education comes so much better opportunity, but also so much of a, of a critical eye on what are we doing? Why are we doing this? Yeah. And so that, those are the leaders, officers, frontline supervisors, all the way up to the chief. Those are those leaders who have been putting a critical eye on our training, on our, on our investigations, on everything and going, why are we doing this? And, and so that it has taken a while, but now we basically have an entire workforce that is college educated.
And I think that's where you see some of those. Also body-worn camera has been, has been great for transparency. Most of the time, it's, when, when we hear about it and we look into it, it's not exactly what, what happened in regards to what's being alleged.
But if it is, we go, Ooh, yeah, that, that is not good. We need to investigate that. And sometimes, so it's not even about necessarily wrongdoing, but it's more about just, could we have interacted better with the community member we were there to serve? You know, we, we go on 250 to 270,000 calls a year, interact with hundreds of thousands of people.
Yeah. And, and so, so if we are having some, some bad interactions that, that we're seeing, and we need to, we need to change how that officer interacts, but it could also be what's going on with that officer. Is that officer having a hard time in their life? And is it showing in their, in their day-to-day work? So how can we get that officer some, but the two things that, that four-year college degree and body-worn camera is huge for transparency as well as a cultural shift.
Yeah. I love that. I mean, Hey, if you ever thought about having a life of living a life of crime, I can tell you right now, it's a bad idea because there is no place really in society these days that isn't being watched.
Surveillance is everywhere with the advancements that we have now in forensics. And like I said, overall surveillance you're not going to get away with it. And that also goes for the department as well.
Like you said, with the cameras and everything too. So there's, there's no reason to, to take that risk, be a person of character and do things the right way because you will be held accountable. And that goes for those who, you know, wear a badge and those who don't.
So, so I love that. And I'm going to drop, I know we're going to talk, we'll be talking so much more, but I'm going to drop a stat real quick since I dropped a call stat. You know, I think when people talk about use of force and I know that's huge and I know that has been abused in the past and, and there are members in the African-American community that definitely have real stories about that.
But I want, I want to give this stat because I think people think it occurs more than it actually does. So we go on 250,000 calls of those. We only make about, and those are victim generated calls.
Those are, I've been victimized. Please come help me. So we go to that call.
It ultimately only ends up in about 15,000 arrests of the 250,000 calls. And of those 15,000 arrests, only about 0.2% are a use of force occurring. So I think a lot of people think that it occurs at a much higher rate than it really does.
I appreciate you sharing that statistic. I want to shift gears just a little bit here. Talk about some of the upcoming activities that will be happening here in our city, the city of Tulsa.
And just to be quite honest about Juneteenth this year, Juneteenth, the festival has had an incredible history, a legacy in our community for many years. I mean, like Tulsa is really known for like celebrating Juneteenth and Martin Luther King Day, like larger and more lively than most cities throughout the nation. It's just part of our culture.
It's even bigger than a holiday. It always has been. But obviously last year at Juneteenth, there was the unfortunate tragedy that took place.
You know, it's still on a lot of people's minds and they're wondering what this year is going to look like. What's crazy is last year was probably the first year, or at least the only year I can remember that I didn't go. Like I was not out there last year.
And I've always gone to Juneteenth religiously. Like it was something that my family would always do. And we're always proud to be a part of those festivities.
And I'm thinking about our culture and what the day meant and the experiences of our ancestors and everything. But for last year, you know, for whatever reason, I probably didn't have a babysitter or something like that. I didn't make it out.
And obviously the tragedy did take place. And people are wondering what this year is going to look like and if they should feel safe when they go out. So can you just kind of talk a little bit about maybe TPD's approach to protection and safety this year for this year's festival? So there's actually a lot of great events coming up in Greenwood over the next month or so.
For sure. Greenwood falls into, and I don't know if everybody knows this, Greenwood falls into the geographical boundary of the Gilcrease Division. And so the Division Commander for Gilcrease, Major Mark Onasorge, and several others have been working with the organizer of Juneteenth, but also the organizer of the Black Wall Street Motorcycle Rally, Legacy Fest going on.
And it's really being invited into that space to help more for a public safety aspect. Instead of being leery of that connection, everybody down on Greenwood is all in and has been. And so it's bringing all the things we do with every other event in the city of Tulsa to try to work with the organizer, Mayfest, Octoberfest, you name it.
We have meetings regularly like, hey, be thinking about this, be thinking about that. We're going to be around here supporting you on the outside of your fest, because we can't just dedicate officers to special events. That's a permit process through the city, and they have to be paid for.
But what we can do, though, is we can be aware of those events. We can provide additional resources around those events. And that's what's going on this year.
We've been able to expand our downtown operations into Greenwood, having been invited in to do so. And we've seen great success with that already in protecting the safety at night of those trying to just have a good time down on Greenwood. And that's what we look forward to doing with the Juneteenth Festival as well.
The organizers working with us and is doing a great job of reassessing how can we still have a wonderful celebration, but also kind of maneuvering it around so that it mirrors the safety focus of a lot of the other festivals that occur. That was one of my, that was going to be one of my questions I was thinking about asking, like, because I know it's got to be, I mean, you got to do something. I mean, you have to do something a little bit different, but at the same time, you don't want to make people feel like they can't celebrate or for the celebration to not feel like the party that it should be to.
So I was just kind of wondering what that balance would be like, like a little bit of heightened security slash still a festive environment. Like how do you go about ensuring that the party doesn't stop and everything like we don't just feel like there's this heightened security? Yeah. So it is an increase in police in the area, but it's also an adjustment of what time is it going to start? What time is it going to end? What other just, there's also a crime prevention strategy called crime prevention through environmental design.
And so it's working with the organizers of, hey, if you happen to put up barriers here and barriers here, it kind of allows people to not just lurk in the shadows of your event kind of thing. So it's really given all those strategies that we give to other events and letting them know, hey, we're here to support you. Our goal is anyone who wants to hold a festival in town, our goal is to make sure that that thing goes off without a hitch and that everybody gets to come and experience it.
And especially when you're talking about something like Juneteenth, we want to make sure everybody feels safe so that that can be a great festive environment. Yeah, I think you knew exactly where I was going, honestly, I don't know if I asked that question as clear as I should have, but you knew exactly what I was saying. I was just saying that we want it to feel the way that it always feels.
Like I said, that's why the festival has been tradition in our community and always successful. I mean, different people have organized it over the years, but the turnout has always been quite sufficient. And just even me, I like to get back out there this year, like I said, I will go religiously, but I want to feel protected.
I want to feel safe. But at the same time, I want to kick it. I want to have my lawn chair and you don't necessarily want to see.
You don't want to feel something we hear about a lot is feeling overpoliced or anything like that, because I think generally, I say our community is safe and behaves quite quite appropriately, 100 percent, always for sure. That's why I say that's why it's why it's always so successful. But at the same time, you know, this did happen last year.
And, you know, unfortunately, I still think about, you know, the families that were affected by that. But, you know, the legacy will live on. And I love to know.
I'm happy to know that you guys are thinking about it and thinking about us, thinking about our well-being and also going to make sure that the parameters are set so that we can kick it and celebrate without stressing about about safety this year. So thanks for elaborating on that. And all I want to do is tell people if if you see an increased presence of Tulsa police officers, it's not because we're suspicious.
There you go. It's because we've been invited to try to help make sure everybody is safe. There you go.
And so every officer down there knows my goal is to make sure everyone I see here has a fun time and gets to go home at the end of the night. So you're saying that the more officers have been invited to the party? Yes. Nice.
And I like that you said that because I mean, if we see it, somebody's going to notice it. There's more obvious police presence this year and we all can assume we know the reason why. But y'all heard it first right here.
They've been invited to the party and we're gonna have a good time together this year. And that's what I'm looking forward to. And I appreciate that again.
One more thing I wanted to say, too, about Juneteenth and just policing in general. You know, we've used the word community probably 35 times in this podcast for good reason. You know, what can the community do? What role can we play in keeping this event safe? But, you know, events in general safe.
How can the community best support you all as well? I think probably the best thing would be to report in the manner that everybody else would report about a violent safety concern. Don't brush it off as, well, I don't want to get that person in trouble. If you suspect someone is going to do something violent, please find a police officer and let them know your concern.
We're not going to go to the person and 10 people all of a sudden just gang up on somebody real quick. That's not how we police. And we're also not going to go, hey, sir, can I talk to you real quick? That person way over there just told me that they're concerned about you.
We're also not going to do that. So feel free to say something to us and know that we're going to keep that in confidence as best as we can. And we're going to go address your concern.
We're going to be professional about it. And then we can move on. And if you know there's some folks up to no good that are planning to do something, the best thing we can do is get out in front of that and let us know in advance.
And so it really is that communication. And I will tell you that people that like to try to say that this kind of comes full circle, that there's such a significant divide between African-American community and Tulsa Police Department. It's so awful.
It's so awful. Well, I don't believe that to be true because the reason we have such a high solve rate for homicides in this city compared to any other city in the entire country, because the community trusts us and calls us and tells us what's up. And so if that divide was so great, we'd be like Chicago.
It'd be like 35 percent solve rate. It'd be like 50 percent solve rate. And it's not.
And so do we have plenty to to move together towards? We do. But I think that foundation's still there. And that's all I'd ask for the festival, for any downtown thing.
Just please trust us to call us and get out in front of it before it becomes something that nobody wants it to turn into. Love that. So you guys heard it heard it first here, like this is our first podcast.
So if you tune into this one, you kind of got a chance to hear about the origins of of this podcast and what brought us here to this point. We're going to be doing this, try to be as timely as possible, maybe maybe cranking out a few a few each month. And we want to invite everybody who is listening to this to to feel free to share it and share it, because, again, this is information that is really only beneficial if it's if you take the time to listen to it and let people know that they have a place they can go to to learn about what kind of goes on with our police department and keeping our community safe.
So feel free to share this as often as possible on whatever the platform is. What's really funny is a little story real quick. I was talking to my brother a few maybe a few weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago or whatever.
And I was telling him a little bit about, you know, our relationship, was reminding him of it and and kind of what some of the things that you guys had asked me to do. And one of the things that he was kind of doing at the time was, you know, kind of hanging out, you know, downtown a little bit, a little late, you know, which is always it's always cool. But, you know, this is a lot.
The later he gets, you know how that goes. Oh, yeah. They would they say that sometimes the freaks come out at night.
Nothing good ever happens after midnight. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I just let him know. Hey, man, just keep your head on the swivel.
And he's not into anything crazy at all. But, you know, I was just letting him know that. And I know that you guys have been keeping your eye on some of the things that are going on downtown.
And he was just wondering, you know, how I was getting some of the information. Like, how do you know there's might be an increased, you know, presence, you know, this weekend or whatever the case might be. And he was funny.
I said, I've been, you know, I got some friends, you know, on the department and everything. He was like, are you an informant? Like, how do you have this information? And he might he might have called me the ops. I don't know.
But I was just like, hey, man, I am your brother, first of all. So we're family and everything. But at the same time, you know, I'm a community member and a citizen that cares about our community.
And because of that, I got to be at a table, you know, where I can talk to people in law enforcement and can, you know, give warnings to my people and my neighbors and my culture, you know, on, you know, things that are happening just because we want to keep everybody safe. And that's what this is has been for me, just a chance to keep, you know, advocating for people. And working with you guys has been a pleasure to this point.
So I'm excited to say that, you know, I am here in this space and, you know, you've never pressured me, never felt controlled or anything like that. Like I had to say anything. Like I said earlier, if something needs to be said, then let's say it.
If something needs to be addressed, then let's address it. Let's be real about everything that we say and do. But that collaboration that we have right now, man, I'm hoping becomes contagious throughout our city.
And you start seeing a lot of community members, you know, like me, you know, and it has the opportunity to get to know officers like you and have these type of conversations. And the more that that happens, the more we feel linked together. Like we all have an active role to play in public safety.
Like you don't have to wear a badge. Absolutely. All you got to do is, you know, hopefully you can open your eyes and see something or open your mouth and say something if you need to.
And, you know, you can do so in a way that doesn't feel in any way, you know, not scary at all because we have that relationship, man. And the more that that happens, the better outcomes we're going to have, the more safe events we're going to have, the more, you know, our kids are going to be raised and understanding that, you know, they can play a big part in public safety too. So this education, that's what this is right here, man.
We keep talking about communication and that's what that came up a lot, but it's also education that can happen the more that we communicate. And this is a perfect platform for that. So just want to encourage everybody out there today to feel free to share this podcast and keep checking in with us.
Again, shout out to Greenwood Cultural Center for setting this up. Everybody over there has been doing great work and really supportive of everything with the department. Any other shout outs or anything I need to say or you can think of that we need to do? The only thing is this isn't a one and done.
Look forward to many more. And all I would ask of people is to look at this as how we move is little victories. And I think this is a great little victory and we'll keep having more and more little victories, little victories, step by step, brick by brick on for a safe Tulsa.
So again, thanks everybody for listening today. We'll be uploading it and coming at you guys really soon. Bridging the Gap Tulsa.
Keep Tulsa safe podcast. All right. All right.
Thanks, John. I appreciate you. I think we 57 minutes.
Oh, perfect. I forgot to hit that button. There we go.
Cool, man. Oh, that was good. I do too.
You got to hear it. Oh, my ears. That's weird.
Do you imagine being like a club DJ? Oh, God, I wouldn't even. Oh, that would be brutal tables. My keys flow.
You want to go get him real quick? Yeah. Like, like the flow. Yeah, I thought that was great conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So your, your, your phone was on him and then this will be on that. And then once that's done, I'll be able to download it out.
Yeah, you'll be able to just shoot. You shouldn't be able to just send all three to him because it'll have the audio and the. I can send it to both of you is what I'll do.
And then that way. Yeah, you'll do whatever. Yeah, we'll just do whatever we need to do.