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Transforming the Game with Kristina Katsanevas is the podcast for game-changers, risk-takers, and industry shakers. Don’t hate the player—hate the game? Not here. These leaders are rewriting the rules. From high-net-worth entrepreneurs, founders of Australia’s most iconic brands, and those disciplined enough to keep stacking those habits to success. We dive into the minds of pioneers innovating in media, business, fashion, sport and transformation.
Want to know how to break the mold and redefine success in your career, business, and life?
Tune in and start transforming the game.
Kristina Katsanevas (00:00)
Dr. Ney, welcome to Transforming the Game.
Nadine (00:04)
Thank you so much for having me, Kristina
Kristina Katsanevas (00:06)
I am so, so excited. This episode is all about empowering women, telling your story and uplifting. And I feel so privileged that I have your time here so that we can really delve deep into your side and just everything that you are teaching and the community that you are building. So thank you.
Nadine (00:28)
⁓ thank you for having me. Let's do it.
Kristina Katsanevas (00:30)
Let's do it. So
for those who don't know you are the real life Naomi Belfort or the Duchess as labelled from the Wolf of Wall Street but that's not your headline at all and your mission is so much more. You're a trauma expert, you have a PhD in somatic psychology and I see that your work is bridging
Nadine (00:51)
correct.
Kristina Katsanevas (00:54)
neuroscience, psychology and the somatic methods to help rebuild the safety in the body when people have experienced this high impact relationships. So what I want to do is go back and before we get into all of the noise, who were you before you were labeled the Duchess by the world?
Nadine (01:15)
Yeah, you know, honestly, I was just like any 22 year old living in New York City, you know, in the late 80s going to clubs, I was living with my best I was modeling at the time. And really just living. I mean, I have to support myself financially because I was raised by a single mom. So I had to do that at a very young age, which led me to become a model. But really, I was just a young girl bopping around the city listening to Madonna.
hanging out with my friends and having a great time.
Kristina Katsanevas (01:47)
Oh yes Madonna, I think that's the pinnacle of your 20s for me as well. what was it like then when you, first meet Jordan, what was that like for you? So what was like the start of the relationship and where was that first meet you?
Nadine (02:04)
Yeah, so as the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street depicts, we did meet at that, he had a party at his West Hampton house in this big white house on Dune Road. And I went with my boyfriend and I walked in and he was having a party and I thought they were all acting crazy. I didn't know they were all on Quaaludes. And as the movie depicts, one of his friends did expose himself to me.
Kristina Katsanevas (02:07)
was.
potting.
Okay.
Nadine (02:29)
And I lost the party immediately because I felt so uncomfortable because of it. I was like, we gotta get out of here. And so we did leave. And then I guess somebody had set his sights on me and was like, I want her. And he orchestrated making somebody $15,000 in the stock market. And she kept calling me so that we could have a dinner, me, him and her.
Kristina Katsanevas (02:34)
brother.
Ahhhh
Nadine (02:55)
unbeknownst to me, I had no idea it was a setup.
She just made it seem, and you have to remember, 22 years old, I'm not even thinking about this, right? She's like, oh, that guy Jordan's gonna come. And I was like, what's he coming for? Isn't he married? She said, what do you care? I said, no, I don't care. I said, I just think it's strange that he's coming. And hence he came, and I was from Brooklyn, he was from Queens, he was the most charming, magnanimous person, and we had a fabulous dinner that I had no idea was a set.
Kristina Katsanevas (03:22)
⁓ I have seen Wolf of Wall Street quite a few times you never sure how much is real and how much is just cinematic especially with Donnie exposing himself and I was curious about your perception of going into that party and if it was crazy but then the charisma
stepped in when Jordan's like, actually, I've got my eyes on you because you're a bit of a hottie and I want to get to know you. So 22, you're now being swept off your feet. let's go through that
Nadine (03:47)
Yes.
Kristina Katsanevas (03:52)
at the start it's like any relationship right? Where you're having fun, there's obviously a lot going on, there's partying, you're 22, New York. So to start with how long was it a great relationship where you were Loving and life?
Nadine (04:07)
You
know, it was a great relationship, you know, for the first couple of months, right? There was a lot of love bombing involved. It was very fast and furious. It was very intense. You know, we were like soul mates after a month, right? So the typical experiences that you would see in a trauma bond.
⁓ because we went to central trauma bond unbeknownst to me i didn't know that but we were and so all of that fast and furious intense love bombing really makes you overlook any red flags because the dopamine's being right the oxytocin is flowing and so
Kristina Katsanevas (04:27)
Yeah.
you.
Nadine (04:44)
Early into the relationship, I started to see red flags. Of course, we weren't even talking about that term, red flag. But I just knew there were things that were wrong because he would say to me, I would like to, I want to, I want to marry him. And I'm like, I'm not ready to get married. I'm, I think it was about to be 23. Maybe it was 23, about to be 24. I can't remember exactly, but, and he was like, well, if you don't marry me, I won't date you.
So the domination and the threats started so early. And I was like, all right, well, I mean, I guess we'll get married. Like, you know, but I really, that was going against my values. And then he's like, well, then, then of course, what do they do? They move the goalpost. Well, then if you don't, okay, you have to have children. like, I definitely don't want to have children right away. I mean, listen, I love my children and I always wanted to have children. But he was like, if you don't have children, I won't marry you. So those were some really intense red flags that were happening with the
incredible love bomb
Kristina Katsanevas (05:40)
I'm to keep going back on. if anyone's listening or maybe they're in a relationship and they're just trying to make sense of some of the unknown feelings or the butterflies in their stomach when something happens and they're like, ⁓ that might not be completely normal. But like you say, you're in love, you're having this great relationship. You're like, probably I would marry this guy maybe. And maybe we will have children. But it was the dominance of
you're doing it, you're doing it now or else. Like, I'm going leave you. And it's that's the red flags you're talking about.
Nadine (06:05)
That's very intimidating,
intimidating thing to say to somebody who you just met.
Kristina Katsanevas (06:14)
Bit intense. ⁓ dear. So when was it then and how long in before the obvious, let's go less red flaggy, where it was just obvious that the relationship was going south for you and you were going, you were starting to maybe get scared or nervous or just actually not questioning the relationship.
Nadine (06:17)
Okay.
You mean like, what were what were some incidences where I started to question. ⁓
Kristina Katsanevas (06:39)
Yeah, yeah. So when
he said, so initially when he's like, if you don't marry me, I'm going to leave you, that's more of a threat and you weren't really realizing the extent, but when was it an obvious?
Nadine (06:52)
What, what, what it really started to get obvious to me was when his, his addiction to drugs was increasing. And what would happen is whenever I would confront him about it, you know, I knew nothing about addiction at that age, right? I had no idea what I was dealing with. And what would happen is when I would start to talk to him about it or say like, you can't be doing this much drugs. It's not healthy for you. I would, he would get like a crazy tsunami of rage.
And I was like, okay, I've never seen rage like this before. know, mixed in again with buying me a 10,000 square foot mansion, right? You know, it's always mixed in. Nobody falls in love with someone who's cruel to them all the time.
Kristina Katsanevas (07:23)
more.
No.
Nadine (07:35)
There's gotta be mixes of kindness and cruelty. And so when that cruelty though, and that rage, whenever I didn't do what he wanted, or it could just be over like any crazy thing he'd get really super angry at, when that became a pattern, I was like, oh boy, we have problem. But you have to remember, I got engaged six months and married six months later. So I got married with a here. So now I'm in it, now I'm married.
Kristina Katsanevas (07:52)
Yeah.
So within 12 months you were married. ⁓
And do you find in with a lot of even your clients and all of ⁓ the work you have done I always try and picture in certain relationships where the highs are so high you're getting bought million dollar mansions, yachts, you're going, you're holidaying, you are the Duchess, you know the lifestyle is extravagant and fun let's say there's moments of fun there right it was beautiful fun and there's like the gifts where the so the lows that are so low that
Nadine (08:21)
It's all you find. Yeah, I'm gonna go to bed.
Kristina Katsanevas (08:28)
people if they were in a more stable relationship they hit that low they'd be out because they'd be like this is crazy the lows just are so low that because the highs hit so high do you find that that's that's a real thing
Nadine (08:34)
That's fine.
Yes,
it's a real thing and it's called intermittent reinforcement and it's the extreme, like you say, highs and the extreme lows. And so what the research shows is those extreme highs and extreme lows actually bond you more to a person than just straight kindness. It's like the slot machine. You never know when the good time is going to come. So you just keep sitting there and playing the slot machine.
Kristina Katsanevas (08:59)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So in the movie, Margot Robbie played you in Wolf of Wall Street. Now, is that someone that you would have picked to play you? Now, she's obviously a bit of an Aussie icon for us and she's actually a local to where I live. I do personally, we do love Margot, but I think for you, is that someone who you were at least pleased to be playing you in the movie?
Nadine (09:19)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, mean, Margot Robbie, you know, remember this is her first movie, right? So this is her breakout role. So I have no idea who she is when they tell me, you know, Margot Robbie's gonna be playing, you know, I'm like, okay, great. You know, I don't know who she is. And of course I'm thrilled that it was Margot.
Kristina Katsanevas (09:32)
Yep.
Yeah.
What a person. And you got to meet her and what sort of tips did you give her to really portray yourself? Because you didn't get much of a say in the movie, if at all.
Nadine (09:53)
No,
I had no say in the movie. I had no say in the cast. I had no say. I made no money. It was in my narrative. But they did ask me if I would meet her because they wanted her to get my accent, my Brooklyn accent. And I did. And she was lovely. She was 22, was the age I was when I met him. And I took her to dinner with my husband.
Well, first she taped me for like three hours to get my accent with the speech coach. And then we took her to dinner and she said, you know, I'm afraid, like, I don't want to be naked in the scene and, but I don't know how to tell, Martin Scorsese and Leo. And I said that right there, that fear of speaking truth to power. If you embody that, you'll understand how I felt my whole marriage.
Kristina Katsanevas (10:35)
Well, she did a, I think she did a good job. I ⁓ recently watched it again. Yeah. And you see the, and you get a different perspective when you're not just watching the showman over here, when you're actually watching the relationship and what it was like for you that she's playing. If I go into
Nadine (10:38)
Yeah, she was great.
us.
Kristina Katsanevas (10:55)
trauma bond for people, which is where you go, is it the same as Stockholm Syndrome?
Nadine (11:01)
It's really not the same as Stockholm syndrome because with Stockholm syndrome, you don't know your captor, right? So you don't have an emotional attachment to your captor, to the person who's holding you captive. With trauma bonding, you have to have an emotional attachment to the person.
Kristina Katsanevas (11:03)
Okay.
Okay.
Nadine (11:17)
for it to be a trauma bond. And so it's a toxic dysfunction relationship between two emotionally attached people where the pathological person wants power and control over their partner. And so that's what really separates it from a normal healthy relationship. The person wants to control you. And we see that when I'm explaining the story about marriage and babies.
Kristina Katsanevas (11:34)
Yeah.
So what about when, so like you say, I've read where you've written trauma bond is a power because it feels like certainty and it feels like chemistry and it feels like addiction for the person. trauma bonding, it doesn't discriminate. It's not for,
the weak women or the already battered women, highly successful, very strong, very smart women ⁓ in trauma bond relationships and most of the time you might not even know. So did you, while you were in your relationship, did you ever reach out to and confide in people?
Nadine (12:02)
question.
next week.
Yeah, you know, I was in therapy. So right when I met
Jordan, I realized, my God, I can't manage this guy. I can't manage this lifestyle. And I put myself into therapy. And so right away I was in therapy. So I had a therapist for the whole eight years of my marriage that I went to. And I went to her every Monday at 1 p.m. And I really believed that going there is actually what allowed me to manage it and probably save my life.
Kristina Katsanevas (12:39)
Yeah, okay. All right. So from the start, least credit to you for seeking help there. Was there any times in the relationship then, because it was eight years and then you did have two children, did you ever, call the police?
Nadine (12:53)
Yeah. Yep, I did. I did. I think there were two incidences where I called the police. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (12:54)
Yeah, okay. So, they're all right.
Yeah, right.
And how did that go afterwards? Was he apologetic? Was he angrier?
Nadine (13:04)
It was, I
mean, the one time, think the first time, and it was a long time ago, he came back. And then the second time was when he had gotten really physical with me.
And so the police came and they took him away. And it was, was confronting him about his drug addiction, telling him, you must get sober or I'm leaving you. He went crazy on me. And, and then he did actually though, ends up getting sober. So that was good. I it was in good. I didn't want it to have to go down like that, but it was great that he got sober.
Kristina Katsanevas (13:31)
Yeah, yeah.
that
he got sober. You said a relationship with a narcissist is transactional and they are only with you if you help them achieve their goals. So how did you in your situation then, like how, how did you help him achieve his goals and how can others in a relationship like that understand if they're helping achieve the narcissist goals?
Nadine (13:56)
I think that narcissistic people, they look at us like tools on a tool belt and they want to see what can they exploit from us, what can they use that we have. And for myself, I was a very loving, doting wife. I was a fantastic hostess.
I learned how to cook, I took wine classes, I took interior design classes. So I created a really incredible, beautiful home. We always had dinner parties. And I think that in general, I was a very good beard for him. He could really hide behind me in way and kind of pretend to be normal. And not that I'm perfect, by the way, at all.
I'm very imperfect, compared to him, I was a tad more normal.
Kristina Katsanevas (14:41)
obviously you're beautiful and you were loving and devoting and so what about then when it comes to the psychology? So women who are in these relationships and you've got the group that they almost are proud to like the bad boys Then there's the women who
seem to be attracted to people who don't treat them well, let's label them bad boys and go back after, go back and back and back. And then there's the ones that are in a bad relationship, get themselves out and then go for the complete opposite, which they've learnt their lesson and they're like, I will not go anywhere near anyone who even tells me an idea to have for breakfast. Nope.
Like, you know, you're not going to do that. So Why is it? And what is happening there in people's minds? Why they go back and back and back.
Nadine (15:31)
So, right, so the research shows that it takes a woman an average of four to seven times to leave a trauma bond. And one of the reasons is that after they leave, first of all, if a person wants power and control over you, and you say you're leaving, they're not just gonna be like, bye, have a great day. know, they're gonna want you back, they're gonna hoover you, they're gonna try to get you back. That's one reason. The second reason is because
Kristina Katsanevas (15:38)
Wow.
Nadine (15:59)
When you leave a trauma bond, as I mentioned earlier, it's not all bad. There is the romantic part, there is the love bonding, there are the good moments, and you really long for those good moments. And if you've been away from it for a while, you're like, ⁓ it was in that bad, and you go back.
Kristina Katsanevas (16:12)
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nadine (16:17)
And that's
very, very confident.
Kristina Katsanevas (16:19)
I found in the past a good technique, depends on the type of person, is when you are replaying the story in your head and you're only replaying the good part, like it's like you've skipped all the bad and you replay that good part and that's why you go back or you go back or you go to a new relationship that's the same, if you, write out a timeline of the relationship and go, met.
Nadine (16:42)
us.
Kristina Katsanevas (16:44)
happy this fight or this fight and this happened and then and then this was really good and write it out so you could physically see it so that I would say I'm only replaying three but actually there's 30 things in that time frame and
Nadine (16:58)
That's right. That's
right. And we also call it an ick list, like create an ick list, create a list of 10 things or how many things that were wrong and how many times you were betrayed or lied to or deceived or controlled or abused, right? And then right when you get that longing, because it's very common, you look at that list. ⁓
Kristina Katsanevas (17:06)
a close.
Yeah, yeah,
you've got now a thriving community, let's call it, and with Thrive, where you bring and you help and you support women to, ⁓ can you talk us through everything about the community and how you're helping people there?
Nadine (17:32)
Yeah, sure. So, you know, I wrote my book Run Like Hell. It got published January 9th, 2024. And so that was great. But, you know, to come to therapy is expensive. And there's so many people, millions of women all over the world dealing with trauma bonds and coercive control. And I wanted to reach them. And so I started this online community. a trauma bond recovery community.
And for $30 a month, a dollar a day, it's filled with women who are stuck in the trauma bond, have left their trauma bond, are healing from their trauma bond. And we run four support groups a week. In fact, I have one right after this.
I take my book and I made it into an online course and I teach them a course, I teach it to them once a week. There are meditations, assessments, graphics, worksheets in the course to help them. And then also I bring in an expert once a week. So they're getting so much validation, education and support to help them really finally break free and heal from this trauma bond. And it's going really
well.
Kristina Katsanevas (18:41)
I love that. There's also the situation for lot of women where in these relationships the money is controlled and they wouldn't be allowed or have a way to get to therapy or even suggest they go to therapy. So this is almost an if you are in that situation and under the cover thing where you're just in a community group online ⁓ where you can get
Nadine (18:48)
Worst.
That's right, that's
right. And it's $30, because you're right, I'm glad you brought that up. In a trauma bond, experience financial coercion, or you get financially abused, financially devastated if you leave. So I really wanted to democratize it and make it accessible to women everywhere.
Kristina Katsanevas (19:16)
Yeah,
I love that. I love that because it isn't just about physical abuse that people are in. It is the money. It is emotional, which I think is a lot. Yeah.
Nadine (19:25)
psychological, vulnerable,
yeah. We know that that's just as harmful as physical abuse.
Kristina Katsanevas (19:32)
Yeah, yeah, when they're beating you down. do you ever talk People who are working, not in a loving relationship, but they're working for a narcissistic boss.
Nadine (19:42)
Sure. yeah, it's the same thing. It's the same thing because whenever you depend on somebody for their resources and they're a person that's maybe pathological or is very hungry for power and control, you're at their mercy. You can be in a trauma bond. You can be a trauma bond with your boss, with a sibling, with a parent, with a friend, but boss and lover, I would say are the two.
Kristina Katsanevas (19:44)
same thing.
Nadine (20:07)
most common ones because again, you're depending on someone for something. know, in a relationship for love and maybe money, but for your work, it's, it depends on your boss for money.
Kristina Katsanevas (20:12)
Yes.
people who I see are competent, and they're successful people, but they've been in an organisation for usually it's at least minimum five years, 10 plus, that they become.
ingrained in the culture and they're in a toxic work environment for them and they're losing their confidence and they can't see it anymore. They're like, couldn't work anywhere else. They're miserable where they are but they're not seeing that the boss is actually controlling them and if we could just...
Nadine (20:48)
Almost like a cult
leader. Almost like a cult leader.
Kristina Katsanevas (20:51)
Yeah, so if we could just get them out, what's some tips for them to try and break them free.
Nadine (20:57)
Yeah, I mean, first of all, you know, if somebody is not hearing you, if somebody's not allowing you to be authentic, if somebody doesn't respect your boundaries, if somebody's words aren't matching actions, if you notice that you fear them, and your body is really telling you, this is dangerous, but you're ignoring your body. The first thing is to be like, okay,
Maybe I am a trauma bonded relationship and get educated about it, right? Get my book, go online, go to my Instagram, the real Dr. Nadine. So many wonderful practitioners that are really educated talking about this now, start to learn about it. See if what the people are saying resonating and if it's resonating, then plan your escape. Don't just go in and quit, right? Cause that doesn't work. You have to systematically strategize and plan your escape.
whether you're in a trauma bond with a lover or at work.
Kristina Katsanevas (21:48)
Yeah, it also gives you power, right? If you start to pre-plan, you're planning it out, you've got that upper hand, they don't know what you're doing, so it's empowering you as well. ⁓ Good advice though is start planning and find someone to talk to,
Nadine (21:57)
completely.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:02)
Now you are in and have found beautiful love and there is is light on the other side if you have been in a bad relationship. talk me through how that happened and where did you meet? John.
Nadine (22:10)
Thanks.
I've been with my current husband 25 years and we met on a blind date.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:20)
Beautiful.
Nadine (22:21)
And, you know, of course I was like panicked, like, my God, can I trust somebody and, and all those things. But what you've learned on is what I learned is that I worked on myself and it was in as much about trusting the other person as trusting myself to make a good decision. And this was a prime example when I first met him and we had a conversation and we disagreed cause that's going to happen. And he said to me, okay, no, but I hear you. I was like, what? You hear me? You hear me? Wait, what?
Kristina Katsanevas (22:46)
you
Nadine (22:48)
And so if somebody can hear you, they can love you.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:51)
I like that. If they can hear you, they can love you. ⁓ that's beautiful. So 25 years. And what's something that John just does right in a relationship that you're just like, yep, he's my man.
Nadine (23:02)
He's a really good caretaker. He brings me a tea and scone every morning.
Kristina Katsanevas (23:08)
I hope
so.
Nadine (23:09)
He's
sweet, he's sweet, he's super supportive of my career. know, listen, I'm sure it's obnoxious that I'm always talking about my ex-husband, right? But he understands that it's not because I care for Jordan anymore, it's just that I'm using the movie to help empower women everywhere, right? I get to take the most misogynistic movie on the planet and exploit it to empower women. I couldn't have written better if I tried, right?
Kristina Katsanevas (23:33)
No, 100%, 100%. And the fact it was a big hit, I mean, it is funny how the universe works where it is such a big movie and such a big hit and it did launch Margot Robbie's career and with Leo there that it created a character and you became this Hollywood character yourself. did that have any definition for you for being created by Hollywood and having a character like that?
Nadine (23:52)
this.
Kristina Katsanevas (23:58)
Did that you ever feel like your identity got hijacked and that you had to reclaim yourself back?
Nadine (24:03)
that just naturally occurred. really didn't even start to talk about the movie till 2019, which is seven years after it was released. So, you know, so I really only started to talk about it when I could use it. And I get to tell my narrative on social media and it's great because women need it.
Kristina Katsanevas (24:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
They it's a very good hook for you to be able to go, people have seen it, and then they can relate, and then they see you on the other side and go, yeah, like there was a human, there was a woman, there was a relationship there, it's not.
the party, the drugs, cheating, the abuse, everything. That's actually not a cool thing. But let's talk about your healing journey then and for others that are going to go through it because everyone will get out and you will be stronger is it's not linear. So what did your version look like in getting you back to you?
Nadine (24:51)
That's all.
So you know my version looks like when I left Jordan like I said I was in therapy but his he was sober so his coach his sober coach called me up in Sydney G and I think you should go to this place called the Karen Foundation because if you don't ever want to meet somebody like Jordan you should go so I didn't ever want to meet anybody like that again or go through that again so I did go there and I checked myself in for five days
And I learned about my family of origin. I learned about boundaries. You know, when you leave this relationship, you're so focused on the other person throughout the whole relationship because you have to be to survive. So the first step that I say to women is turn the mirror back on you. The first thing you have to do is you have to stabilize with self-care after you've been in relational trauma.
Kristina Katsanevas (25:33)
Mm-hmm.
Nadine (25:41)
What are you eating? What are you drinking? How are you sleeping? How are you taking care of yourself? Because when you take care of yourself, your body feels safe. And then who are you? What do you need? What are your attachment patterns? What are your personality traits? How did your early developmental experiences shape you?
And so, and that's what I do in my community, in my courses, I, of course I educate them about trauma bonds and pathological people, but I really take them on a journey, internal journey inside of themselves. That's where the healing happens.
Kristina Katsanevas (26:10)
Okay and is that how ⁓ when you say that so if we got once they go inside themselves that in in you're really focusing on this is how you can break your cycle or even make generational cycles right?
Nadine (26:20)
You break generational cycles, learn how with the trauma bond you lose yourself, you learn how to regain yourself. You learn, usually you have CPTSD symptoms, you learn how to manage anxiety and depression, usually you have a symptom called cognitive dissonance where you're very confused, is he good or is he bad? My crazy is his crazy, his relationship with health, they're toxic. So we work, I work on teaching the woman, if he was in good or bad, he was one pathological manipulative person.
have to keep remembering them. So there are certain things that I really work on with them that are generalized for psychotherapy, but then also specific to trauma violence.
Kristina Katsanevas (26:52)
Yes.
Did you ever find in your relationship or with people that are clients of yours where it where you see something that they do which you know in your values isn't right or it doesn't sit well but that's to someone else and in your head your narrative ⁓ rightly or wrongly is, but they wouldn't do it to me.
and that's where it starts as far as when you're trying to look at those initial red flags in your relationship.
Nadine (27:24)
⁓ yeah,
right. Exactly. You definitely say that they wouldn't do that to me. But the way they treat people is the way they are inevitably going to treat you.
Kristina Katsanevas (27:29)
that wouldn't do that, yeah.
Yeah, that's another thing for people to think about too.
Nadine (27:41)
Yes, relational trauma or coercive control or abuse escalates always.
Kristina Katsanevas (27:46)
Yeah, so it's like looking out for those signs and then getting help.
strategizing. with your work, I truly believe you're saving people and saving lives from relationships. They don't even understand they're in yet, but they'll be hearing it. They see you, they'll follow you online and then it'll be little triggers and they will be getting out before they even realized where it was going or they get out and they feel empowered. So I applaud you for the work that you are doing.
Nadine (28:09)
Yes.
Thank you.
Kristina Katsanevas (28:16)
What is it ultimately your big legacy that you are building? What's your utopia?
Nadine (28:21)
⁓ well, my utopia would be a world where people are decent and kind and compassionate and empathetic towards each other. But I don't think that's happening. So what I'm just going to work towards is validating, educating, empowering one woman at a time. And with my community, a few hundred women. So my reach is growing and because everybody deserves a healthy, safe relationship.
Kristina Katsanevas (28:29)
Thank
I love
Yeah.
Nadine (28:46)
Everybody deserves that and we don't have to tolerate abuse and verbal abuse, emotional abuse and coercive control. ⁓ We just don't have to do it in the name of love.
Kristina Katsanevas (28:56)
There's a lot of people out there. There's a lot of people in this world. There's a lot of good people. You just got to find them. So if you could give every woman, Dr. Nae one psychological tool to protect her future self, what would it be?
Nadine (28:59)
That's right.
Okay, so to protect to the most important thing is to trust your gut. I think as women, we've been taught to override our gut so much. And we're looking for external validation, we're looking for people to give us permission. No, if your body says something, listen to it. The body does. The body keeps the score You must listen to your body and then
Kristina Katsanevas (29:31)
home.
Nadine (29:36)
express it.
Kristina Katsanevas (29:37)
what it keeps the score is very true. is very true.
Nadine (29:40)
That's right, that's right, that's right. And if somebody doesn't like it when you set boundaries, run like hell. They're not, you can't be in relationship with them,
Kristina Katsanevas (29:46)
Run like hell. Run like hell.
100 % if they're not listening, they're not respecting your space, run like hell, 100%. And get your book, it's gonna be available. I'm gonna have the links in the description as well. You definitely all need to follow Dr. Nae online. I've been following you and just your content is just enlightening and enriching and sometimes depressing. Just when you're just like, it's definitely funny as well.
Nadine (30:08)
Yes, yes and sometimes funny and sometimes funny and sometimes funny.
as we are looking at it.
Kristina Katsanevas (30:15)
like it. It's a shame that
we didn't get to catch up properly in Miami, but I'm sure I'll be back in the States very soon. ⁓ So I do want to thank you. I want to thank you for your time and everything and your energy and just even not hiding away after being in a relationship like you've been in, it would have been very easy for you to live a very quiet, easy, simple life.
Nadine (30:21)
That's great.
Kristina Katsanevas (30:36)
where you were out of the limelight, having lots of love and joy and happiness with John and your family of 25 years and be away. But instead, no, you bring it out. You're very brave. You're very courageous and very strong to make sure that you're empowering more and more women to help them. thank you. Thank you very much for everything you were doing.
Nadine (30:53)
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me on.