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Most leaders push past their own emotions without ever slowing down long enough to ask, “What’s happening in my soul?” In this episode of Behind the Seal, Bill & Kristi Gaultiere—founders of Soul Shepherding and authors of Deeply Loved—share how empathy isn’t weakness; it’s oxygen for the soul.
In a conversation packed with insight and vulnerability, they unpack why emotions matter to God, how Jesus models empathy, and why healthy leaders must learn to receive empathy—not just give it. From spiritual formation to burnout prevention and the “4 A’s of Empathy,” this episode gives leaders permission to breathe again.
If you’ve ever felt pressure to be strong, keep moving, or “power through,” this conversation will meet you right where you are—and remind you that you are deeply loved by God.
About Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
Bill & Kristi Gaultiere are the co-founders of Soul Shepherding, a ministry dedicated to helping pastors, missionaries, and Christian leaders thrive in emotional and spiritual health. Together they lead the Soul Shepherding Institute, train spiritual directors and coaches, and host the Soul Talks podcast.
Bill is a psychologist and spiritual director; Kristi is a psychotherapist, spiritual director, and executive leader with a passion for emotional intelligence in Christian leadership. Their newest book, Deeply Loved, guides readers into experiencing Jesus’ empathy through Scripture, prayer, and community.
Their ministry has helped thousands of leaders learn to rest in Jesus’ easy yoke, receive God’s grace in deeper ways, and lead from a whole, healthy soul.
Additional Resources
· Deeply Loved by Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
If this conversation encouraged you, share it with a leader who needs a reminder that their soul matters.
💬 Comment below: Which of the 4 A’s of Empathy do you most want to grow in?
🎧 And don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe for more conversations on healthy leadership, emotional integrity, and caring for the souls of those who serve.
Timestamps
Timestamps
00:00 – Intro
01:21 – Michael welcomes Bill & Kristi
05:57 – Leaders’ inner life: why “under the hood” matters
08:22 – Kristi’s story: emotions, shame, and the healing power of empathy
12:00 – Why some Christians misunderstand empathy
15:00 – How emotions and thinking are meant to integrate
18:13 – Unconscious resistance: why leaders block empathy without realizing it
21:00 – Bill’s story: learning to feel after a lifetime of stuffing emotions
27:10 – Receiving empathy vs. rushing to solutions
32:09 – The 4 A’s of Empathy (Ask, Attune, Acknowledge, Affirm)
38:04 – Empathy prayer and connecting with Jesus’ emotions
45:19 – Empathy as oxygen for the soul
47:17 – Boundaries, burnout, and stewarding empathy
50:49 – We all need a safe place to process emotions
01:21 – Michael welcomes Bill & Kristi
05:57 – Leaders’ inner life: why “under the hood” matters
08:22 – Kristi’s story: emotions, shame, and the healing power of empathy
12:00 – Why some Christians misunderstand empathy
15:00 – How emotions and thinking are meant to integrate
18:13 – Unconscious resistance: why leaders block empathy without realizing it
21:00 – Bill’s story: learning to feel after a lifetime of stuffing emotions
27:10 – Receiving empathy vs. rushing to solutions
32:09 – The 4 A’s of Empathy (Ask, Attune, Acknowledge, Affirm)
38:04 – Empathy prayer and connecting with Jesus’ emotions
45:19 – Empathy as oxygen for the soul
47:17 – Boundaries, burnout, and stewarding empathy
50:49 – We all need a safe place to process emotions
Creators and Guests
Guest
Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
Bill & Kristi Gaultiere are the co-founders of Soul Shepherding, a ministry dedicated to helping pastors, missionaries, and Christian leaders thrive in emotional and spiritual health. Together they lead the Soul Shepherding Institute, train spiritual directors and coaches, and host the Soul Talks podcast.
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
Bill and Kristi Gaultiere Final Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] Kristi Gauiltiere: We define empathy as seeking to understand somebody else's thoughts, emotions, and experiences so that they can know they're deeply loved by God.
[00:00:09] Bill Gaultiere: We teach that empathy is actually not coddling or fraternizing people. His empathy considers what's gonna be best for them.
[00:00:16] Kristi Gauiltiere: We have a God who is so empathetic that he would come to earth and become human in Christ, and experience every temptation, every trial, every emotion.
What an empathetic act that is!
[00:00:32] Ryan Gordon: Have you ever found yourself rushing past your own emotions, convincing yourself you're fine when deep down you're not? In today's episode, Michael Martin sits down with Bill and Kristi Gaultiere, founders of Soul Shepherding, to talk about the kind of empathy that transforms everything, not the superficial kind, but the kind that breeds life into your soul and reminds you that you're seen, heard, and understood.
I'll be honest, this conversation stopped me in my tracks. It reminded me that receiving empathy isn't weakness. It's how God heals and strengthens weary hearts. This is your invitation to slow down, receive grace, and start treating empathy like the lifeline it really is. Let's dive in.
[00:01:21] Michael Martin: Well, hello, Bill and Kristi! It's so good to have you both on the ECFA podcast.
[00:01:26] Bill Gaultiere: Oh, thank you. We are so blessed to be in conversation with you and each of your listeners. Michael, thanks for having us on.
[00:01:32] Kristi Gauiltiere: We are grateful for the ECFA and the leaders that are following Christ together with you. And it is our joy to get to converse with you this morning.
[00:01:41] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, hey, I say that any day that I get to spend with Bill and Kristi is a good day, so it's always good. But, uh, yeah, especially on this podcast, I think you all know, uh, soul shepherding, leaders of Soul, soul shepherding of course, and, uh, members of ECFA. But this is the Behind the SEAL podcast where we get to go behind the scenes, if you will, um, with our member organizations and just kind of hear what's happening in their world.
But this one feels extra special too, because I feel like we're going a little bit behind the seal to Michael. Not that this podcast is all about me, but I have just been, uh, tremendously blessed, uh, by the Ministry of Soul shepherding and just each of you. And so I feel like we're also going a little bit behind the into to Michael today.
[00:02:23] Bill Gaultiere: Well, thank you for your heart and your genuineness. It's a, a blessing to be in a relationship with you and, uh, just looking forward to connecting with each, each of you who are listening.
[00:02:34] Michael Martin: Yes. We're so excited about that. And yeah, I guess to just kind of give all of our listeners a little bit more of that behind the seal, um, we had the opportunity to get to know each other, I guess it's been a few years ago now, but as ECFA was in the process of rolling out the new Leader Care standard.
And of course we went through the whole process of getting feedback from our members. But you know, you all were also folks that we turned to that are, um, I'll, I'll use the term like [00:03:00] experts or just leaders in the space of, uh, soul care and just wanting to kind of glean wisdom, uh, as, as ECFA was discerning and going through the process with this new standard.
And so that's how we, I guess, first got acquainted. And then I, little did, I know just how much my life would be touched by, uh, your books. And then I've had an opportunity to engage in coaching and then, uh, even my wife, Brittany and I have been able to spend some time with you guys and it's just been such a blessing.
[00:03:27] Bill Gaultiere: Well, thank you. It's been, been an honor and joy for us, and we ad admire your courage, uh, in ECFA to really go deeper into the heart and soul of our leaders, our Christian leaders, because that's where our leadership comes from, you know, uh, having great, uh, biblical principles and, and training and our leadership is of course very important.
Uh, but so much of it is about under, under the hood. You know, what's going on inside of my relationship with God, my heart, my soul. Life happens to all of us and stress hurt. Uh, we. Sin that we need to confess. And so we've all got issues and challenges, and so to, uh, be dealing with that, not only in our private relationship with the Lord, but but also, uh, through, through a, a, a coach, a counselor, a spiritual director, a fellow pastor, fellow a a brother sister in Christ who's a leader that we, we can be real and honest with and, and be encouraged by.
And things like sabbatical care, you know, the, the, the kinds of things that you're looking at are, are so important for leaders because the best, what we really bring in our leadership is who we are. It's not just what we know it, it's who we are in our relationship with God
[00:04:34] Kristi Gauiltiere: and Michael. We so respect the way that you are leading ECFA that way as well, putting priority on the health of your own soul.
This is the call that God has given us in soul shepherding, that we would help leaders to get healthy so they can lead healthy. And that's what we see you with Integrity doing yourself. And so respect you for that.
[00:04:53] Bill Gaultiere: Well, even bringing it into your relationship with Brittany, you know, sometimes we can separate our work from, from our marriage and our family and, you know, to be integrating that as as you are, that's what we all wanna be doing.
[00:05:04] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, thank you. You know, um, I feel like a lot of times we kind of throw around terms like life changing, you know, and it, it is sort of like we use those terms very casually, but seriously, it, it, it really has, uh, it's been life changing just to be impacted, I think, uh, in the journey of me just trying to be not only yeah, a better leader, but also, uh, an apprentice of Jesus in particular, the whole teaching around just being in the easy yoke of Christ.
And, and there's a lot of that that even touches on the topic that we're here to talk about today, which is also your new book and deeply loved, and just the idea of, of empathy. Uh, but before we get to that, um, I know a lot more about your story just from, you know, all of our interactions, but for those who are listening, yeah.
Take us all behind the seal. Tell us just a little bit about the Ministry of Soul shepherding and kind of how the Lord led you to this place, providing this ministry for, for so many other ministry leaders.
[00:05:57] Bill Gaultiere: Well, Christian and I both studied, uh, Christian [00:06:00] psychology in college. Um, and, uh, when we met, uh, we had a dream to do, uh, ministry together and felt called to our studies.
And our learning is a way of helping pastors and leaders. Uh, uh, the way we say it today is go deeper with Jesus. In emotional health and loving leadership. That's the mission of soul shepherding. Uh, we are, our whole space really is your new standard. Uh, we're, we're all about the, the heart and soul of the leader and caring for one another in Christ.
And we started soul shepherding in 2009. And, uh, God's blessed our ministry and it's been growing every year, especially the last five years. We've had really explosive growth, uh, particularly in our core offering, which, which is our Soul Shepherding Institute retreats. These are five day retreats where we meet with about 50 leaders, uh, of all kinds.
Uh, these are pastors, missionaries, spiritual directors, uh, uh, nonprofit leaders, uh, CEOs, and we gather together in authentic community. And it's not like a conference, though. There is significant learning. It's very experiential, very relational. Uh, some people are able to come with their spouse, which is a tremendous.
And so, uh, yeah, we invite you who are listening, come on, retreat with us. It's a time of refreshing soul care and learning. We have four, four different retreats that we offer. Uh, spiritual formation, spiritual and psychological development, soul care ministry, and relationally healthy leadership. And you can do just one.
You, you can do all four. You can do 'em at any order. And, uh, it's a, a blessing and an honor for us to do that. And Christian and I lead it together.
[00:07:38] Michael Martin: Yeah, I love seeing, uh, I was, I'm glad that you ended there with that bill because it is really special the way that God is using both of you and together in ministry.
And I feel like that's even a good kind of segue into this, this new book and Deeply Love, which by the way, all those who are watching on YouTube, I came with my stack of, um, soul shepherding books, but in particular at the top, uh, deeply loved. I'm just gonna show it here, uh, on screen. Just so excited about this, this book.
But Christy, I feel like this is something that, um, I know God's laid this on both of your hearts, but maybe you in particular too. This was something that the Lord is really stirring. So maybe just kind of tell us a little bit about that, of, um, you know, your journey into this area and why you felt like this was something that God was calling you to speak into specifically.
[00:08:22] Kristi Gauiltiere: Well, definitely. Thank you, Michael. I think that so often in our life we find our greatest message comes out of our greatest wounding, our greatest need. And that has been true for me in the area of empathy. This was something that as a highly sensitive person born into a family of strong doers and thinkers, empathy was not something that I experienced growing up.
And so when I experienced emotions, when I showed emotions, my, my family didn't know what to do with that. And so what they did with it is they would send me away to my room to be alone, which very much felt like an abandonment to me. And I was told, you know, Christy [00:09:00] Snap out of it. And I was told to, I was taught to repress my emotions, to deny my emotions.
And as I got older, I began to treat myself that very same way. And that led me to all kinds of unhealthy ways of trying to manage my emotions. And as I would read scripture, I would. I would read it and I would receive shame. For having emotions and there was so much that I didn't understand that actually I projected my own experience with my parents onto God and I felt incredible shame whenever I had a need or an emotion.
And this definitely got in the way of my intimacy with Jesus and my emotional health. Thankfully, God and His grace continued to pursue me with his truth and his love and show me that actually. He created me to be emotional. My emotions are a gift and actually that he loves me and is with me in those emotions.
He doesn't abandon me when I have emotions, and being able to actually sit with ambassadors of Christ who were interested to know me and to understand even my emotions and to love me. In those places and to share God's grace with me was so transformative to me in getting healthy and discovering that and developing a healthy sense of self where I actually could, out of that healthy sense of self, choose God and love God and grow in him.
It has been so formative to me spiritually, emotionally, and then relationally, the impact in our marriage. That empathy and learning, empathy and learning to both give and receive empathy has been so powerful, so healing, so freeing in my life and then in my leadership, that was a real surprise to me as well, when God called me onto an executive team, a co-founder leading a board, and I thought, oh my goodness, I'm, I don't have training in this.
I've got my doctorate in psychology, but I don't know anything about leading a board or an organization. And the Lord showed me again as I began to research what makes boards effective, what makes for healthy leaders. I kept finding emotional intelligence and I kept, and empathy. If you know anything about emotional intelligence, empathy is key.
In all five attributes of emotional intelligence. And so there again, I found God had given me these strengths, these gifts for leadership that I didn't, they were unconscious competencies. I hadn't even realized the importance of them for leadership. And that has been a great gift too. But too often I've seen leadership training, not acknowledge and not understand the power of emotional intelligence and the power of empathy and leadership.
And that really, this is Jesus's way. This is God's way. We have a God who is so empathetic that he would come to earth and become human in Christ and experience everything that we experience, every temptation, every trial, every emotion that we experience. What an empathetic act that is.
[00:11:58] Michael Martin: Amen. There is so much good.
And what [00:12:00] you just said, um, I took note of a couple things. One is, um, just as you were saying that. Oftentimes it's like our area of greatest hurt that the Lord would actually in, um, as we're being transformed and on the journey of, of formation in Christ like that can actually turn into being our greatest ministry.
And, uh, it's beautiful to see that in your life and as a result of this book. And then I, I also just want to touch on, you're kind of getting ahead of something else that I had in mind to ask you guys, which is, um, it feels like on a topic like empathy too, sometimes Christians, and even just in our culture, we can get drawn into these like extreme viewpoints, right?
Where it's like, um, people who would say like toxic empathy or like if you exercise empathy, like that's weakness as a leader. And so I'd just love to kind of hear more even, uh, from you guys of how in scripture you've seen that that is is not the case.
[00:12:56] Bill Gaultiere: Well, we, we teach that empathy is actually not coddling or rescuing or fraternizing people.
You know, empathy is not just, uh, getting to do whatever you want or letting other people do whatever they want, or that whatever you feel That's true. That that is not biblical empathy. Uh, we teach that, uh, empathy, uh, helps us to acknowledge what is true, what's true in God's word, what was true, uh, from, from science and just observable in our external world.
And additionally, empathy helps us to take personal responsibility. That's biblical, healthy, godly empathy, and that's what we're teaching in our book. Deeply loved. So there's a lot of mistaken understandings about empathy. I think that a lot of times in our, our culture at large, it's sort of like the way empathy is.
It's like, you know, everybody just gets what they want. And I, I can define my, my own life, be my own God, uh, be whoever I wanna be, whatever I wanna be like. And nobody can tell me otherwise or even believe differently if you believe that what I'm doing is not okay. You know, then you're, you're, you're, you're judging me and that's not okay.
And so as Christians, we can sort of end up on the o opposite extreme where we idealize, uh, thinking and rational, rational and, and, and judgments. And our thinking is very important. And the Bible has a lot to say about renewing our mind, but our emotions are also important and the way our brains work, the God way, God has created us, uh, feeling and thinking are meant to integrate.
And both are, uh, important ways that we can experience life, relate to each other, relate to God, and, and know things. We, we can know things through our emotions. So sometimes in our Christian culture, especially historically. We have really made, uh, motions, sort of like a, a, a whining child. I'm just quiet down and you, you, you can hear oftentimes, uh, this idea that if faith is just about what I think, but it is, it also relates to my heart and my soul and my relationships and my choices.
And so it involves our whole person, including our emotions. And so empathy is all over in the Bible. Now, many even, uh, sincere Bible students miss that because the word empathy is not [00:15:00] used like in the older translations. And some of us has these mis mistaken ideas of empathy. Uh, but for instance, in the, uh, golden rule that Jesus gives us in, uh, his sermon on Mount, do unto others as you would've them do unto you.
That's a golden rule of empathy to you. You have to pay attention to other people and what, what they need and what what's going to be received by them is, is being loving. Uh, even the greatest commandment that Jesus give us gives us to love the Lord, our gal, with all our, all our hearts, which includes our emotions is and primarily our choices, all our mind, all our strength, uh, and, and then love our neighbor.
As ourself. And so that, that's coming out of, out of, you know, I'm gonna love others, but I, I I need love too. And so, yeah, the Love one, another new commandment is very much a teaching on empathy. In fact, all the one anothers there, there's, uh, uh, more than two dozen, one anothers in the New Testament. Uh, and they all come from a place of, uh, understanding others, being empathetic with others.
And so in, in our book, deeply Love, we actually unpack over a hundred we call Empathy Scriptures because the concept of empathy is everywhere. It's, it's embedded in love, as I've, as I've already implied, it's embedded in compassion. Compassion is often the first word we think of for Jesus. But you don't.
You don't get compassion or the compassion of Jesus or compassion that's really loving and helpful. You don't get that without empathy. 'cause empathy considers what do people truly need? What's gonna be best for them? And of course, what we teach is an empathy that not only is biblical, but it's also prayerful.
It's led by the Holy Spirit. So empathy is important in all of our relationships with our family, our friends, our church, and our work.
[00:16:44] Michael Martin: You said over a hundred scriptures. Right. That's amazing. Wow. And then I think of too, it, it has been a blessing in just in reading through different things that, that you all have written, um, how at times like we do misapply scripture and there is, there's a danger to that.
And so I feel like for anybody who's listening, be able to kind of take in this information, and if you're like me, there were some of these aha moments where it's like, oh, you know, I've always heard like this scripture kind of meant this. But then you kind of get this understanding of, uh, bill, as you said earlier, like, uh, God created all of these aspects of who we are, including our emotions.
They're, they're pieces of, uh, just beautiful, right? And made in the image of God if we're, um, if we are functioning in the way, in a healthy way, in the ways, in the ways that he's caused us to. I wonder too, just in hearing about, you know, some of these messages oftentimes that, um. That we hear along the lines of empathy, if that also plays into this other idea of, I think there's also a, an unconscious sort of resistance, especially for people who are in leadership.
There's a lot of leaders who are listening to this podcast of like, well, um, maybe that's even okay for other people. But if I'm in a position of [00:18:00] leadership, um, or, you know, maybe it's even personality wirings, but kind of unpack that for us a little bit too, of how we can come into this place of even an unconscious resistance to receiving God's good gifts.
[00:18:13] Bill Gaultiere: Let me jump in on that because that's me. So I'm, I'm a thinker and a doer. I'm, I'm Type A, uh, I'm a workaholic and an adrenaline addict in recovery. I, I did not grow up like Kristi, uh, being, being sensitive and aware of my emotions. And, uh, I was pretty much raised on sports field playing football. Both my grandparents worked in the steel mills in Chicago.
My dad started out in the steel mill. I the oldest of five kids, and so I was raised to be strong. You know, you, you fall down, you get hurt, you bleed, you just, you rub dirt on it. And you go forward. I, I, I'm not a typical psychologist or a typical like Monkish spiritual director. I, I'm a, a very active, uh, active guy and a strong thinker.
I love to read. I, I care a lot about what, what I believe. I study the Bible, uh, uh, voraciously. Uh, I had to learn to discover my emotions and how important they were. I knew that other people had emotions and I sort of needed to be kind about that. My mom was very sensitive, uh, but I, I, I did not know what I felt, and, and I suffered from anxiety because of that.
I didn't have the words for that. I didn't know that's what it was. And at times I, I was depressed because, 'cause my, a lot of times depression is, is repressed emotions, repressed needs and, and, and desires. And so I had to go on a journey and that, that happened in college when my, my favorite teacher that I was her teacher's aide.
And I, I, I got to meet with her every week. And so when I, first time I met with her, I, I said to her, so, so Kara, you know, tell me what it's like to be a Christian counselor. I, I wanna learn from you. I, I feel so honored to, to be your teacher's aide. And she says, oh, bill, we can get to that later. Let's start with you.
How are you, how are you feeling? I. I was like, looking over my shoulder. How am I feeling? Well, I don't know. How are you feeling? I, it is like I was in psychology to help other people. I didn't think I had any problems. I mean, that's so arrogant, right? But I, I, so she led me on a journey and so I figured out, okay, so what we're doing here is, is kind of like counseling.
And, and so I just sort of talking about, about my life, what I was thinking, what I was doing, and then she would start putting words to what she could feel that I might be feeling. 'cause she was alive emotionally. And so she was tuning into me and, and she'd hear about what I'm doing and, and she said, well, it sounds like you're feeling some pressure.
Well, yeah, I, yeah, there's a lot of stress right now. You know? Well, tell me more about that and, well, so it's, you're, you're worried about this. Well, yeah, I, yeah, I am worrying about it, but I'm thinking about it a lot. It keeps coming into my mind and, you know, she'd hear some more. She says, well, maybe you're feeling anxious.
Well, what, what is, whatcha you feeling in your stomach? And well, yeah, there this, like, there's always stuff going on in my stomach. What does that mean? You know, I'm like learning the language of emotions and, and 'cause she was giving me empathy. She was feeling my emotions [00:21:00] before I did. And so this began a journey for me.
There was a journey primarily with Jesus. But I met with counselors later. I, I, I learned about spiritual direction when we went through our certificate training. And I met with spiritual directors, but I learned to receive empathy. And see, when you hear about a book on empathy, you might think, oh, okay, so Bill and Kristi, uh, you're gonna teach us about listening skills and how we can be more empathetic to other people.
And, and we certainly do that in many ways. That's, that's the bottom line where we wanna get to. We wanna be more loving for other people, but we actually take you on a journey of helping you learn to receive empathy from Jesus through scripture and through prayer and in love one another, relationships.
Because as we learn to receive empathy for our own needs, hurts, struggles, conflicts, stresses, et cetera, as we learn to go on that journey of vulnerability and God's empathy gets inside of us through, through, through the word of God, through people, now we, we can become more empathetic to other people, like organically out of the overflow as cheerful givers like, like Paul teaches, uh, in Corinthians.
And so this is a big part of it, is learning how to re and it might seem like, oh, well, you know, I can, any, anybody can do that. But actually we have a lot of resistances. To being vulnerable and to receiving the deep, deep love of God. And so we help you understand those resistances, work those through and, and learn to trust, which is really what you're about in this podcast.
Behind the seal is that we wanna establish trust, relationships, and as leaders, we wanna have the trust of, of the people that we serve and that we help and, and of the public. And that so much comes out of, you know, who we are and our relationship with God and one another.
[00:22:37] Michael Martin: That's so good. Yeah. Kristi, were you gonna add a thought on that idea as well?
[00:22:41] Kristi Gauiltiere: Yes. I think also that in leadership and, and of course we know we have an enemy out, out to get us and an enemy who's constantly accusing us, and those accusations often will isolate us. Relationally. Oftentimes through the efforts of the enemy and, and sin, there's conflict. We've been hurt, we've experienced criticism.
We've experienced con texts where it has not been safe for us to be vulnerable or for us to be honest, or for us to be even at all in touch with our emotions because we're just needing to get through our to-do list or the next thing that's expected of us. And this can cause us to, uh, develop a fault self or function out of a fault self to try to meet other people's expectations or to try to, to put on an image of, you know, who we think we should be as a leader instead of being honest, being vulnerable, being authentic before the Lord in that.
And yes, if we are just trying to get through behaviorally, um, just always trying to believe the right thing and do the right thing, believe the right thing, do the right thing. Oftentimes we are closed off to our own needs, our own emotions, and we don't have a context where we can bring those.
[00:23:57] Michael Martin: Yeah. And without even realizing it.
So yeah, I was [00:24:00] thinking about, you know, times that we have spent together in some of my own experience and, um, you know, Brittany and I, as we were meeting with you, kind of took an opportunity, like I said earlier, that that that EAs the idea of the easy yoke at Matthew 11. Like all of that teaching has been such a blessing, uh, in my life.
And I think as you end, um, one of your books on that topic, you talk about the idea of kind of overcoming your fears, you know, breaking through different areas in order to live in the easy yoke. And I remember there being this section of the book where you kinda lead through this whole, uh, idea of. Part of healing is actually asking for empathy, you know, um, you know, for people who God could use as ambassadors, I think, as you guys use that term.
And so, um, I remember coming to you all for this because I, I had sensed, uh, it was actually just during the sabbatical that I was blessed to receive from ECFA and had some time and space for this. Um, but I really felt like God put it on my heart that there were some of these areas where just some healings needed to occur.
And reading that section, as you guys talked about, like, you know, part of a healing journey is to go and to like ask for empathy, and I'm like, wow, this is kind of like a new thought for me. I'm not sure, but like, I wanna be in obedience. And so coming and having that conversation with you all and with Brittany there and.
I can relate to this idea of unconscious resistance. 'cause I think there was some resistance even just to the initial idea. But then I found myself as we were in conversation together, uh, actually unconsciously, like resisting, like even when we were in that moment of you guys were so kind and gracious, and I think we're trying to, you were trying to give that gift of empathy.
I found myself even kind of putting up, um, unconsciously some barriers to that. And just to be a little more specific, I think it looked like, for instance, describing some challenges or processing some difficult things that have happened. But then quickly, you know, in my personality it was like, but, but here's what God did, you know, like, and here's how like things turned out and it was all okay and, you know, uh, but you guys were so good to just kind of even push me to go a little bit deeper and just walk through that journey of like not allowing there to be unconscious resistance to some of the empathy that needed to be received.
[00:26:18] Kristi Gauiltiere: I so respect. That's a long way of saying I could
[00:26:19] Michael Martin: relate to that.
[00:26:20] Kristi Gauiltiere: Yes. And I so respected you for that, Michael, and, and for the vulnerability that you leaned into there in the way that you then did receive and really do the work. And it is work to be able to receive and agree with God's love and grace and truth for you.
And so often we do wanna try to package it up, preach to ourselves, put a pretty bow on it, and then present it out to others instead of really letting God do a deep work of healing, really let it, letting his love, his grace, his truth, really get inner working into every aspect of our soul, our thoughts, our emotions, our body, our [00:27:00] relationships, and was central our heart, spirit, and will.
[00:27:03] Bill Gaultiere: Yeah. Michael, you're, you're showing all of us that we, we all need this unconditional love of the Lord, uh, his grace, uh, and we need to receive that in, in the deep places. You know, in Psalm 51, David prays for, for truth, uh, and mercy of the Lord to come into his, his inner, inner place, hidden inner heart of hidden places of, of his heart and soul.
And we, we all need that to go on that, that journey.
[00:27:28] Michael Martin: Well, yeah. Thank you. Uh, it was such a blessing and I relate to what you shared too, Kristi, of like, it is work. It's not easy, you know, it's not easy. Uh, but it is such a gift and we're, we are truly like stronger on the other side, but allowing ourselves to walk through that, and that was my experience.
It wasn't coddling, it wasn't some of the things that maybe people have these, um, misconceptions around the idea of empathy, but it was an important part of the healing journey that I was on. But I did want to just mention that because I know that there are those who are listening that they may find themselves on that journey of, of doing exactly what you're saying, of like starting to ask for this, taking some of those steps.
And they may not even realize, like they could encounter some of those unconscious resistance. So yes, I just wanted to mention that. Yeah.
[00:28:13] Kristi Gauiltiere: That, that was part of my learning too. I know early in our marriage, there were times that Bill would be trying to empathize with me as he was listening to me process my experience.
And then he, he actually stopped and he said to me. You know, Christ, it doesn't seem like you are agree with or receiving my. Empathetic responses to the pain that you're in right now. And I was not even aware that I wasn't, but he was right inside the accusations, the enemy, the shame that I had felt for having any needs and emotions was rearing up and was blocking my being able to agree and receive with him ministering God's grace and truth to me.
Uh, of, in this case it was of great love and empathy for the suffering that I was in. And I was so thankful that he pointed that out to me. And that was a key turning for me to begin to look and to pay attention to those unconscious resistances. Where am am I in my pride, not wanting to need God's love and grace that he's ministering to me through my husband, through friends, through pastors, through people that he was giving me.
A sense of his presence, his love, his care, his empathy for, and you know, the reality is we don't often care what somebody knows until we know that they care. And so, not only did my learning to be able to agree with God's grace and receive bill's care as I did, but it also then enable me to be able to better trust his knowledge and be able to receive from him some of the things that he knew that I needed to, to learn from.
[00:29:49] Bill Gaultiere: For me, my pressure to perform has gotten in the way. Hmm. That's been, uh, an unconscious resistance, is trying to be ideal, knowledgeable, competent, uh, successful, uh, [00:30:00] even be a, be a great Christian, be it, be a great leader. And when I put those conditions on myself, those expectations, and they become conditions of worth as if I'm only worthwhile if I do that.
And so I've had a, a tremendous healing journey in this area of, of going deeper and receiving God's grace and being vulnerable. But I still can get caught in, in, in that and, and tripped up because these, these kinds of, uh, formations that we receive, you know, we're a spiritual formation ministry. We say, you know, everybody's getting a formation.
Everybody's getting a spiritual formation that begins in our families and all, all through, you know, our, our life. We're being formed in certain ways. We wanna be formed by God's word. We wanna be formed by the Lord Jesus Christ. But sometimes we, we know so much intellectually, but we're, we're, you know, learning to live that in, into our life and relationships and into these hidden places of our heart and soul, that takes more time.
That, that's, that's a journey. And so when I catch myself under these pressures and conditions to perform, you know, I do need to just pause. Just pause and take a deep breath. And remember, you know, I'm in God's presence. I'm loved, and, and I, I can be vulnerable with safe people. Uh, and, and just to bring my, my, my real self.
Into, into this situation and, and put the, put the trust on, on the Lord Jesus. He's, he's the master. What, whatever I'm doing, you know, Jesus is the leader of soul shepherding. Jesus is the, the key speaker at this event. And, and I, I'm the facilitator and that's getting into the easy yolk of Jesus. And then that's where I can, I can relax and lo and behold that, that's where I'm most loving.
You know, when I, that's right. When I'm worried. Mm-hmm. When I'm relaxed and that's where I'm most effective. Like Kristi was saying about emotional intelligence, you know, my, my best thinking, my best leadership, it, it comes from that place of genuineness and appreciating that I'm in God, God's presence in the moment.
And yeah, I always wanna do my best. I wanna prepare, but I don't wanna trust my best. That's right. I wanna trust God.
[00:31:55] Michael Martin: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. That language was really helpful for me too, just this idea of we're really agreeing with God's grace. Um, I feel like that that just is so disarming, that's a very like, helpful way of receiving the gifts that the Lord has.
I wonder too, if you could walk us through just kind of getting real practical. There's sections of the, the deeply loved book that talk about this, but um, just the idea of those four a's of empathy, I think it'd be very helpful for people who are listening. So, um, I'll let either one of you kind of pick up with, uh, with those four a's.
[00:32:28] Kristi Gauiltiere: Well, the fouriers of empathy are a ask. This is asking good questions. If we can do this of others as we are seeking to understand and to listen to them With empathy, we define empathy as seeking to understand somebody else's thoughts, emotions, and experiences so that they can know they're deeply loved by God.
And so in order to do that, asking good questions is really helpful, and being genuinely curious to understand what is it like to [00:33:00] be this person, my, my brother, my sister in Christ. What is it like to be. In their body, in their marriage, in their leadership position, in their context of ministry or life, what is it like for them to be in the midst of caring all that they're carrying?
Or what is it like for them to be, if they are in a, in a time of suffering or grief? What is it like for them to be bearing that grief right now? But we're, we're basically, we'll be asking questions to invite them to begin, let. Us understand them and know them, and then as we ask those questions, then second, A is we attune.
As we listen, we begin to attune to the emotions and under the surface what's going on for them. We're continuing with that curiosity question of seeking to understand what it's like to be in their shoes under their skin, but we're really tuning into the emotional components of that and then. The third A is acknowledge.
We want to acknowledge those emotions. We wanna try to use our words to be able to mirror back, use our own words to be able to clarify, to see if we really are understanding them and giving them the option to either say, yes, you're, you're understanding, I feel like you're resonating with me. Or to say, well, no, it's not really quite that.
It's more like this. And, and to help us understand because our perceptions are not always gonna be accurate. And we wanna check those out to see They are the ones that are the experts on their experience, not us. And so we're trying to be. Understanding of that and to, to see things through their perspective, through the lens that they're experiencing and looking through.
And the other thing we wanna do with that acknowledge is that we want to acknowledge the, the size of mm-hmm. What they're going through for them. If this is, for instance, maybe a, a reoccurring challenge in their leadership, then this is gonna be something that's gonna be a bigger deal for them because they continue to find themselves in this pattern.
And so we wanna acknowledge that for them as well, so that we know that we're working, this isn't just a little, um, frustrating issue or a new awareness they're just waking up to, but that this is just a, they're maybe feeling really stuck in, in their growth as a leader or in their organization. And there's a lot in history here.
Well, that's gonna make it more significant for them. So we want to be acknowledging how significant this is for them personally. And then that fourth, A, so we want to affirm them because when we allow somebody to listen to us with empathy, it is vulnerable. To be honest and to let somebody in. And so we always want to affirm them for their courage to do that, for, uh, giving us the honor of knowing them.
And we want to affirm the strengths that we see in them, and you will see strengths in them because it, it just. God has created us with such streaks. We are made in his image. And that comes through when we get to know and understand somebody. And so always to end there with that affirmation, maybe the Holy Spirit might give you, as you were listening to the empathy, a verse that [00:36:00] comes to mind that you wanna affirm and encourage them.
And as well, it's really important with these four a's though that we keep that fourth A, that affirmation as the fourth. Too often in Christians, you know, we are so excited to be able to share gut's truth or give somebody a, a, a word of affirmation and encouragement. We're very good at that, I think as Christians, which is a great thing.
But when we do that before we listen with empathy, we will shut somebody's emotions down. And they will, and just rush them to the positivity or the encouragement and not give them the gift of bringing all of their, uh, their inner workings, their emotions, their experience into the light and into a relationship of God's grace and truth.
And then they feel alone. And we settle for shallow relationships because we don't have these places where people will hold the space to really seek, to give us this kind of empathy. And as we receive this, agree with it, we know then that we're not alone.
[00:36:56] Michael Martin: I appreciate that. Um, I'll use the word caution. I don't know if that's the language that you would use, but around especially that last point.
'cause sort of like I was even sharing in, in those moments, uh, we were experiencing together and as Brittany and I were visiting with you guys, I feel like I kind of did that to myself too, of like rushing to the place of, hey, and here's how it turned out. And it's all okay. And I think certain personalities, people are wired, uh, and like you said, just eager to be able to share like.
What may be, um, encouragement or like scripture and those kinds of things, but I appreciate your caution to us there to like not jump to that place too early. That is so key. Well, with that too, I'm just wondering 'cause we've got a little bit of a moment here. I'm wondering if just briefly, um, you've done a great job kind of walking us through all of the, the four A's and just kind of practically what it looks like to be able to, um, exercise empathy.
But can you give us maybe even just like a two minute example of is there something where you could point to as either a conversation that the two of you have had or conversations with other leaders where you kind of walk through these four a's just to unpack those a little bit?
[00:38:04] Bill Gaultiere: Well, I think, you know, we've, this has become so ingrained in us, uh, ev every day I seek to ask Kristi, you know, how, how are you feeling?
Uh, what's going on? And, um, she, I'll be, I'll be doing that later today because she's, right now she's with her, her sister, who is having a health challenge. And I, I know that, that she's very close to both of her sisters. And so there's some feelings going on there. And so I, I wanna give her the gift of being able to talk in the process.
And so I'll ask questions and, and I'm gonna really tune in and listen to how, how she's feeling, reflect those feelings. Be like a mirror. Let let those mirror neurons that God's created in, in my brain fire, uh, in terms of light up. In response to Kristi's emotions so that I, I can seek to feel what she's feeling and, um, certainly see the size, the significance, the magnitude of what's going on, uh, [00:39:00] in her relationship with her sister, who she loves so much.
And, uh, and then, uh, of course I'll affirm her for the beautiful thing that she's doing to be at her house to help her to, uh, to listen to her, to serve her this week. Uh, you know, she, Kristi wouldn't even give a thought to the fact that maybe it's adding stress to her life or something like that, because she's a, a woman of, of compassion.
So this is really just every day Christy and I seek to have a soul talk. I mean, I'm sure there's a day here and there that we miss, but, but we, uh, that's, so our podcast is called Soul Talks because that, that's what we do. We, we invite people into, that's what we do in our, our Soul Shepherding Institute retreats, is we, uh, invite people into, uh, soul talk conversations.
Now, Christian and I will have soul talks together, invite people to, to listen in, because we, we believe that everybody longs for these deeper relationships. Of course, we all long to know that we're deeply loved and, and we, we probably, uh, as Christian leaders, we know that biblically and, and conceptually.
But to know it deep as, as, as you, you were illustrated in your own story, even Michael, to know it deep in my own life where I have some resistances, some hurts, some, some, some un unmet needs, that that's where the journey is. And so. We wanna bring this everywhere we go, we all, we all long for deeper relationships with God and, and one another.
So this is something that really comes out of the overflow of what Chris and I have been living and, and, and for many years. You know, one of, one of our sayings and soul shepherding is, serve what you're cooking. Serve to others what God is cooking in the kitchen of your own soul. So how, you know, how is God's word ministering to you?
How is the Lord taking you on on a deeper journey? Pastors, this is your best sermon, like we talked about at the beginning. You know, we're, we're all wounded healers and we just need to, uh, discover that and, and accept that, that out of our deepest hear sometimes our most important ministry, most important leadership can, can come.
That's why I'm public about my story. That yeah, I'm, I'm a workaholic in recovery. We, in, in soul shepherding, we help a, a lot of leaders who are like me, we also help a lot of leaders who are like Kristi. Uh, but we, we wanna be, uh, and naturally to be authentic about our stories.
[00:41:05] Kristi Gauiltiere: I think, Michael, that it's, it's really helpful for me when I think about.
Scripture in John saying, we love because God first loved us. We empathize because God first empathizes with us. And so receiving God's empathy is so key for me in my leadership. In fact, we write in deeply love that empathy is oxygen for the soul. And we say this because it's just a lot of research right now on the power of oxygen and oxygen.
It empowers us. It increases our energy, it reduces our fatigue, it gives us better sleep, it improves our concentration and our performance. And I would say that empathy does all that for me as well as I receive it. And I've come to find I need empathy every day. Bill and I often will look at each other in the leadership challenges that we have leading our organization, our staff, uh, with, with all of the different responsibilities that we we carry.
Um, and as [00:42:00] we. Often we'll look at each other and share what our experience is in the heart of that, in the areas where we're being challenged, tested, tempted, and it's so often so helpful to us, as one of us will listen to the other one with empathy. And then often afterwards we'll say, you know, thank you because actually you.
You articulated some things I was feeling that I wasn't even aware of. And so even as we are giving empathy, we, we always receive too. Isn't that the way God does it for us As we give, we receive. He, he's so good. His goodness, his mercy, his grace is there when we cooperate with and participate with his love, we, we receive too.
And one of the things that I also do that really helps me in my leadership and in times, especially like now where I'm journeying through a time of a lot of stress, it is a very busy ministry season for us. We just got back from a big conference. We've got two institute retreats coming up. We've got a board meeting, we're leading our staff with a, a major, um, member of our staff who's out on a medical leave.
And so filling in a lot of gaps, my brother-in-law is on hospice and transitioning to be with the Lord any day here now. And there's just a lot going on in my life, in my leadership. So I go to Jesus for empathy every day and I. Reach out to my spiritual director to me, because I know my spiritual director is gonna listen to me and pray for me from a place of empathy and agreeing with God's grace and that I have these safe places in my, in my Bible study group with my soul friends, in my marriage, with my spiritual director, people that I can reach out to and I can ask them to pray for me.
I can be vulnerable with them, with my needs, and with Jesus I can do this. And so one of the things we put in deeply loved is what we call empathy prayer, where I actually will walk through those four as of empathy in my journal. Jesus tells us to ask. He tells us many times to ask, ask. Ask. So I will. I will ask Jesus for empathy and for help me to experience his empathy for me in what I'm going through.
And when I find myself going through difficult times or experiences, difficult emotions, I like to look to scripture and to see Jesus show me where did you experience something in your human life like this to help me to understand your empathy for me and receive and agree with it. And as we have gone through scripture, we've identified 39 emotions in the Gospels that Jesus felt.
And it helps me when I'm experiencing a difficult emotion to see Jesus in that very emotion and how he received God's. Empathetic love, presence, care sustenance, and then to receive and agree with his empathetic love for me and that he co suffered with me. And that always helps me also to realize times when I can say, wow, Lord, I have done to you the exact thing that this person has done to me.
That's hurt me. And it leads me into a, a, a greater empathy for Jesus, for God, and for my sins, the impact of my sins against him too. And that leads me to a greater dependence [00:45:00] and a greater appreciation of forgiveness. So empathy has been so catalytic to my growth in Christlikeness, and one of the practices has been this empathy, prayer and being able to just connect with God with me, and it helps me am I abiding with Christ?
[00:45:19] Michael Martin: I love that practice. I also love, um, what you both have shared there too, about the idea that yeah, empathy is, is oxygen for the soul. And then even as you all, uh, bill, you were sharing with the, with the four, a's you were saying, um, this has become so natural to us. Like, I would even use the expression like as natural as the air you breathe, you know, it's like, this is, and I think that's a great encouragement because uh, maybe when we're first starting into this practice or this journey, like we might stumble through this a little bit and that's okay.
Like we're kind of getting into the habit. But you've, uh, just shared a beautiful vision for us too, of like, as this just becomes normative, it's like you're just saying, this is our everyday life. This is just as natural as the air, air, the air that we breathe. So that's really helpful. And Christy too, the idea of that, uh, empathy, prayer and just thinking about what Jesus has experienced and, um, isn't that Yeah.
An expression of the love of the father that. Him sending Jesus like inhuman flesh to experience all the range of all the things that we do. Uh, what a loving God, uh, that we serve. I did want to touch on too, um, we kind of mentioned at the beginning of the conversation getting acquainted through the development of the Leader Care standard and what UCFA is kind of promoting.
And I can't help but think too on this topic of empathy and how there is a tie in to this idea of even the way that ministry boards are, are coming around leaders and helping to. Uh, provide a level of care and support for them supporting their health and, and their integrity as leaders. Um, but I think, you know, we touched on earlier the idea of like, as leaders we need to allow ourselves to, to receive more.
And I think that kind of touches on one component of how empathy plays into this. But I also wanna ask you about, when you think about ministry boards and what they will be doing to help serve and support leaders through this new standard, how do you see empathy just being a really integral part of that?
[00:47:17] Bill Gaultiere: Well, most important thing that board members can do, uh, and this is true in our soul shepherding board, Chris and I are part, part of that board, and, uh, we're accountable to, uh, the board, uh, to, uh, you know, as under the, the Lord and, uh, uh, is to have empathy for the leader, uh, the CEO, the, the, the lead pastor.
And to, um, be prayerful in that, in that empathy. But, you know, to ask great questions. And as, as the, uh, the leader, the lead pastor, the executive director, the CEO, uh, it's important that you're developing relationship with board members where there is, uh, trust and, uh, where there is mutual, um, uh, vulnerability, accountability, you know, uh, supporting each [00:48:00] other so that when there's a challenge that that's going on in your life that's affecting your leadership, that you can, you can share that and you can receive prayer and, uh, support, listening, uh, empathy, uh, when there's a problem in the organization and when there's all, you know, every organization has problems.
Uh, things that come up, uh, uh, staffing problems, crisis points, financial pro, you know, there's, there's challenges that come up. And so board members don't like to be surprised, you know, they, they want to be brought in, they want to be trusted. And, uh, of course cultivating a board that is a safe community and, and sole shepherding.
All of our board members have been through our Soul Shepherding Institute retreats. You know, we, we didn't bring 'em on the board just because they're, they're, they're gifted, smart, connected, or they have resources. Uh, they do have all those things, but they, they've, uh, God has led them to our ministry.
They, they appreciate our ministry. They've received from our ministry. Uh, and, and we've developed relationship even, uh, friendship and, and trust even before they were board members. And so that, that degree of, of, of trust in, in our relationships with our board, I mean, it's the most important thing Christy and I do as leaders of soul shepherding is it's the, uh, the board that, that God has helped us to develop and then to, to further develop those relationships.
And then how we, we stay current with, with, with the board board members and being involved in each other's lives and, and sharing it in the work of soul shepherding so that they're actually, you know, a, a, a part of this thing. Not only just, you know, a rubber stamp, like Yeah. That, that, that's, that's true to the bylaws, you know?
Yes. Well, we agree with that, that budget increase, but, you know, they're actually in the ministry, they're receiving from it. They care, they care about it, uh, a lot. And they know that ministry is coming from us personally. It's coming out of a, a trust relationship with one another, uh, under the Lord.
[00:49:45] Kristi Gauiltiere: We know that God is more concerned about who we are in him than what we do for him.
And that's true for our board members as well. So we are very concerned as well to support them in their apprenticeship and their discipleship to Jesus, that we are all looking to him in our own growth and supporting one another in our formation in Christlikeness, as well as joined together, teaming together with his kingdom in the ministry that he's called us to.
So this context that we're brought together is a, is it is a spiritual formation community as well as ministry.
[00:50:19] Michael Martin: Yeah, it is mutual for sure. What would you say to those who, um, might, might kind of be of the thinking of like, well this kind of crosses a boundary when it comes to governance, you know, corporate governance.
Um, I have a lot of thoughts obviously on that topic, about what it looks like to exercise Christ-centered governance and, and leader care. But um, yeah, what are your thoughts as it relates to that, especially in a Christian ministry context, how we might. As we were saying earlier, even kind of overcome some of those things that are like misapplications.
[00:50:49] Bill Gaultiere: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, as a leader, um, when I am, uh, struggling, whether it's a hurt, a sin issue, stress or anything that's going on in my personal [00:51:00] life or, or my leadership, you know, the first place I want to go with that struggle is to my, my safe person. So, uh, a safe friend, um, maybe a spiritual director and social shepherding.
We have over 50 spiritual directors and coaches that we've trained that are on our staff. Uh, but we, we all need a safe place where we can just vent process, hear ourselves, say things, and, uh, that's not necessarily a, a a, the board, a board meeting or even a board member. It, it might be in certain situations of, of deep trust, but I think we, we need that place where we can just maybe be, be a mess or not know to sort of be on that, on that journey.
Uh, it's just like we teach, uh, pastors, uh, and other, uh, spokespersons who are, who are, you know, giving messages. You don't want to use your, your audience like your therapist, you know? And so the rule of thumb is, you know, you don't share something publicly, uh, unless you first shared it with your support system.
So I think that's generally true, uh, with, with our board members, is that we want to bring the, the, the. Personal things we're feeling and struggling with. We wanna start with a safe person so we can just kind of get our bearings and, and receive. 'cause the board is not, you know, a group of, of therapists or, or inner healing prayer people.
Even if they would have those specialties. We're, we're governing an organization. You know, the, their first job is, is under the Lord, the, the, the good of the welfare of, of the public that, that we're serving. And so there is an accountability piece to a board relationship that is, is essential. And so the the, you know, we, we uh, uh, we report to the board of directors and they, they give us feedback and sometimes they, they give us feedback that that's hard and difficult and that's an important part of a board relationship.
So I think these things do need to be kept in perspective. That's a really important, uh, question you're asking Michael.
[00:52:48] Kristi Gauiltiere: One of the things we write about in Deeply Loved as well on this topic is that, you know, it's empathy plus truth plus responsibility. That leads us to growth. So e or even if we take Paul's words of always speaking the truth in love, this is, we're, we're always integrating here the grace and the truth.
They go together. They're not in opposition to each other, they're complimentary. This is the way of our Lord. And especially as we have these places of grace, of empathy, they actually help us to be able to face the truth. So I'm thinking of a pastor, an inter century pastor that came on a social shepherding retreat.
And he learned and and heard us talking about empathy. And he shared in the group afterwards, 'cause we have times for interactions and questions and he, he just had had a breakthrough moment. Really the Holy Spirit had had convicted him. He says, I have been living in empathy desert. I believe my emotions work.
Unreliable, and they shouldn't leave me in any way. He said, he said, I tried not to acknowledge any emotions in my life. I covered 'em up, I repressed them. And he said, I didn't realize that not [00:54:00] knowing my emotions, uh, that that was critical to knowing myself and even knowing the sin in my life. And he said I was, I was missing and I was not aware of some of the sin because so much of my energy was going to trying to repress my emotions and manage my emotions in unhealthy ways.
And then he said, I not only treated myself like this annoying, whining child that I just wanted deny anxiety or shame or hurt when it came up or anger. Um, but I would push, push beyond the emotions to achieve. And then this affected my marriage because I treated my wife and her emotions the same way.
And my daughter, because I treated her emotions the same way. And now she's having anxiety problems that are getting in the way of her schooling. And her, her life call. And then he said, I realized that I was treating my coworkers on my church staff this way, and that's why I've been having all this conflict and all this division on our, in our church.
And so this was such a big awakening for him to be able to realize that denying his own emotions and repressing them has caused him to not be able to love well in the context that of the people that he loved, cared, and was called to serve the very most. This was so exciting for us to see him awakened to this and be able to receive empathy and how that led him into greater truth and into greater healing relationally.
[00:55:29] Michael Martin: Yeah, those reflections are, are so helpful. Um, maybe just in the, the remaining time that we have, a couple more points that I just wanted to hit on was, um, we kind of talked about one end of a, a spectrum where maybe like leaders are challenged to receive, but what about on the other end of the spectrum where, um, even on this topic of leader care, we talk about the idea of like, leaders can overextend, it's easy to find ourselves in a place of burnout.
I think perhaps even exercising empathy like, uh, to an extreme, like could get us to a place as we're so eager to care for others, that we may find ourselves, uh, in a place of burnout. So how can leaders who maybe relate to that idea, you know, just set some healthy boundaries, what does it look like to, to be appropriate in that context of setting, uh, I guess setting boundaries when it comes to empathy.
[00:56:17] Bill Gaultiere: Well, and deeply love. We write about, we call empathy fatigue, uh, or it's also called compassion fatigue. But we're, yeah, if, if we're just giving too much and if it's, particularly if we're giving out of a place of, of emptiness and unmet need ourselves. If I'm trying to give empathy and compassion and, and, and grace and encouragement and, and ministry and, and teaching and shepherding and discipleship, you know, all the ways that we can care for other people.
If I'm just pouring out to other people, but I'm not, I'm not receiving. For my own discipleship, the care of my own heart and soul, then yeah, we're, we're, we're gonna burn out. Uh, and all of us in, in ministry, in, in Christian service. Uh, and just in our, in our [00:57:00] world today that, that's 24 7 with the, with the, the media through our phones and everything.
I mean, we are constantly being exposed to vicarious trauma. Th this is the life of, of a pastor, uh, of a Christian leader. That is, we're caring for other people, people who are experiencing trauma in their life that affects us. Vicarious traumas like death by a thousand paper cuts. They're, they're in a way, little things.
It's not my trauma, it's somebody else's trauma, but it just keeps, you know, slicing away, uh, at that soul and, and, and draining me. And I don't, I don't necessarily realize it. And just, just even in our world with, with the news that we take in of stories of, of, of war and, and abuse and, and pain and loss and grief.
These, these are also microtrauma, it's vicarious trauma that we're, we're taking in. And so this is draining our, our reserves of, of empathy and energy. And so we need, we need to steward that empathy. We need to have boundaries. We need to, we need to have limits. Sometimes I need to turn off the news. I mean, it's good to be aware and, and, and prayerful for, for situations on the news, but I can't just take all of that in because I need empathy for the people that are right around me.
So what we call that stewarding our empathy. And that, that's especially important when you have a sensitive heart. You know, like you have Kristi, uh, and you have the gift of mercy. But even for someone like me that's more a thinker and a doer, I, I need to steward my empathy too. I need to make sure that I'm, I'm on the receiving end, so there's some inflow coming in.
Every morning I go out and I, and I, I take my run. I, I meditate on scripture while I run. And I, I pray, uh, you know, to the Lord, I worship God. I, I I intercede for other people. I enjoy the beauty of, of nature. And so I'm, my, my tank is being filled up. So I, I had something, something to give. I mean, just last week we were at a, a conference with 7,000 pastors and, and counselors and soul shepherding was there, and we were speakers at that event.
And it was a lot of activity. It was a lot of, uh, you know, output and noise and energy. And I'm, I'm basically an introvert. I was so thankful every day in the, I had an hour in the morning, you know, it was just me and the Lord, and I'm meditating on scripture. I'm out, I'm out in nature, and I, and I'm, I'm running, I'm getting exercise.
I'm breathing the fresh air that, that, that oxygen and it was just replenish me. We, you know, fill up my tank so then I could pour out during the day. And so we all need to do that. We need to watch our empathy reserves and, and steward that empathy. We need to be careful. We talk about the, the cycle of codependency.
We're very vulnerable as, as leaders, as shepherds to, to giving too much and, and what's called codependency. And so we, we help you reverse that cycle and learn how to be joyful givers and give a, give out of the overflow.
[00:59:34] Michael Martin: Yeah. That's so good. We talk a lot about the idea of stewardship at ECFA, so I appreciate how you made the connection between stewardship and, and managing some of those areas.
Um, well, I'd love to end on this too because what about for leaders who are listening and maybe they do find themselves at a place of feeling, uh, maybe they already are drained or they're feeling some discouragement. I feel like the Lord has really, uh, gifted both of you in the area of just encouragement.
And so I think just ending on that note of [01:00:00] encouragement, how would you, how would you encourage leaders who are listening that may find themselves in that place?
[01:00:04] Kristi Gauiltiere: Well, one thing I'd like to do is to say your soul matters. You also have been given an eternal soul by the Lord, and that's a stewardship for you as well.
So the Lord wants you to receive the soul care that you need. He wants you to receive and agree with his truth and with his grace. And so one of the things that we also write about is three-way empathy, where we need to be able to receive empathy from God. We need to agree with his grace and his truth and his empathy, that self empathy.
And then we can overflow to be a wellspring of his love and life for others. And so really to be able to balance that inflow and outflow again that we love because God loves us. It's, we can't live on exhales alone. And so your soul matters. So much to God. And he wants you to take good care of that, to join him in caring for your soul.
And then also to say, if you need a safe place, soul Shepherding has spiritual directors and coaches available. You can meet with online over Zoom and you can go even today and book an appointment. You can read about our different coaches and spiritual directors. They are all in ministry as well. And so they know the challenges of ministry.
They have learned through their own heart experiences, their own sufferings, and they've received healing themselves. And they are all in relationships where they are receiving care ongoing for their soul as well. And that's what we want for you too. And then also I want to thank you and affirm you for your faithfulness to Jesus and the ministry he's called you to.
And also I know in leadership we suffer. We suffer greatly, and that is not. Lost to God. And so on behalf of our Lord Jesus Christ, I'd like to thank you for sharing in his suffering in your area of leadership and ministry.
[01:01:56] Michael Martin: Amen. Bill, is there anything you'd like to add?
[01:01:59] Bill Gaultiere: Yeah, just, uh, just to echo, the Lord sees you.
I, I talk to leaders all the time. Uh, I'm a leader and, um, you know, sometimes we feel unseen, sometimes we feel unknown. There's so many things that we do that, uh, you know, even when you have a public ministry, there's so much that you do that's, that's hidden. Uh, and, uh, silent sufferings that we experience as leaders and, uh, points of hurt and stress that are difficult.
And sometimes it feels like nobody can fully understand the weight that we carry, uh, in our particular area of leadership or ministry. And so, but the Lord sees you. Even as he saw Hagar in Genesis one of, one of the empathy scriptures we write about in deeply love, sort of a surprising one, but she's in a really difficult position with, with, with her son Ishmael.
And she cries out to God. You are the God who sees me. Uh, and that's empathy. And God sees you, God. God is with you. And, and we know that intellectually probably. But to know it experientially, to trust that, to really come to that deeper [01:03:00] trust in, in the Lord's loving presence, such a, such a big deal, you know, well done, good and faithful servant.
Those are the words we long to hear when we enter into heaven. Uh, and those are words that God is saying right now as he sees you, uh, shepherd other people, lead and, and care for others. In Jesus' name.
[01:03:17] Michael Martin: Amen. It's a stewardship. Your soul matters. And just Kristi and Bill, I wanna say on behalf of all those who are listening, because I'm just imagining as you're sharing all the, all the leaders who are tuning in, they're just feeling very blessed by all the, that you've shared today.
And so just on behalf of them, I wanna say thank you. Um, thank you, uh, from me as well, and just from ECFA. Your ministry is such a blessing. Thanks for your time today having this conversation. And also, uh, thanks for your writing of deeply Loved. This is a great blessing.
[01:03:48] Bill Gaultiere: Well, you're, you're welcome. We're, we're, we're blessed, uh, to follow Jesus with you, Michael, and we're so encouraged by your leadership and your, your courage to be an authentic leader of ECFA and, uh, all, all of the, the ministries, organizations, churches that you're supporting.
Uh, so important, such a great work, and thank you for integrating all the important aspects of, uh, the, uh, financial accountability, the integrity principles, the um, uh, governance issues, but integrating with that also the, the heart and soul of us as Christians, uh, personally, uh, and, uh, we're caring for our own souls under the Lord.
[01:04:29] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. It's, it's an honor. Appreciate you guys.
[01:04:35] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal Podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.