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How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.
Something Shiny: ADHD
What Happens When You Stop Hiding Your ADHD
Drop Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2026
*this episode transcription was auto-generated and might contain errors
ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:00:00] Hello. I'm Isabelle. She, her, hers, and I'm David. He, him, his, and we're two therapists with A DHD, who sit down to have some chats about A DHD. We can promise we'll stay on topic or be professional or even remotely mature, but we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your loved one's, beautiful neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This is not a therapy session. This is something shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: I love it. Do you like it? Uh, that's amazing. And can this just be the intro you saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it's Yeah. You tapping your voice. That, that
ISABELLE RICHARDS: could be, that could be our first intro. That's so good. So without further ado, welcome to something Shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: I'm David, I.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): And so I'm just reflecting back on the last time I saw you, Isabel, which was at [00:01:00] our National Neurodiversity Leadership Summit, and I was like laying down upside down with my feet up on the couch in like the first aid room while you were like eating Chipotle. And I was like a DHD ambivert, like totally burnt out, overstimulated from the conference and I was like covering my head and up under a pillow trying to just like.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Regroup D stem. And then someone was like, all right, Jesse, this new potential donors here. And I was like, deep breath. Alright. Like run back out onto the field. And that was like the last time I saw you.
DAVID KESSLER: No, wait, wait. I just have to do something. Yes. Uh, because people can't see you, Jesse. And so I have to say, like today, I'm more than honored to speak with Jesse Sanchez, president of the Neurodiversity Alliance.
DAVID KESSLER: You and I have known each other for a long time now, like years, I'd say like over a decade potentially. I've seen you, what, what people I think don't know about you is how incredibly, I think, driven you are [00:02:00] around neurodiversity and how incredibly brilliant you are around social justice and people inequity.
DAVID KESSLER: So I just wanna drop that as we kind of introduce, you're describing this incredible summit, right? Mm-hmm. Where all these people, uh, all these people with different neuro NeuroD diversities and the ways of seeing the world are meeting and these incredible leaders are being formed. And you are out there like talking in front of like hundreds, thousands of people, like waving your arms, making these amazing points, making people in the, in the audience cry like, I'm watching this happen.
DAVID KESSLER: You're touching people's souls and like you, you're being incredibly personable with us. You're like shaking our hands. We're doing our like verbal break dancing on stage in front of people and like great high five stuff. And like, I'm like, this is great. And we're doing the a DH ADHD drive thing. And then like, like we all kinda like moonwalk back into the office where you collapse.
DAVID KESSLER: You just like plop on the couch and I think you made a noise, like, uh, and then like, and like slid down and like the moment you did that, I just need you to know. I was like, yeah,
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): yeah, yeah. [00:03:00] Like I get that. Well, you said something in that moment, Isabel, you were like, it was something to the effect of like, I remember it, you were like, I really appreciate the way you are.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Showing or modeling your whatever, like authentic self or like self care or you know what I mean, into like your team in this moment. And I was just like, I don't have a choice. Like this is like where I'm at and this is like physiologically like nervous system, like where I'm at and this is a safe enough and appropriate enough context and space Yeah.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): For me to like do what I need to do and like be there so that I can go, you know, like. I don't know if this is the right term, but like turn it back on or be on or show up in an appropriate way for the next context that I was moving into. You know what I mean? Which was meeting with, oh my gosh. Yeah. You know, meeting with someone who was the new CEO of a very, you know, high profile nonprofit organization that's in the donor [00:04:00] ecosystem that we're involved in.
DAVID KESSLER: What, what I do wanna make sure I'm jumping on is if you hadn't been able to like take that mask off. And maybe like melt a little bit in that couch, would it? You would've still been able to like move on throughout the day, but I don't know if you would've been as clear. And I think the fact that you can take those little melting moments and you're not fighting through them, I think that is the accommodation.
DAVID KESSLER: And I was just, I. I loved watching you do that because it's the modeling that we all need. Like I look up to you, you're an incredible professional. I will melt on the couch and when I see you melting on the couch, I'm like, oh yeah. One of us. One of us
DAVID KESSLER: one.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes. Well, and the thing I wanted to throw in, Jesse, first off, it's so good to see you again.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like I'm, I'm getting teary eyed actually. 'cause when David, when you were describing all the things Jesse was doing, correct. Like, Jesse, you, you're like. Again, you're doing the stuff, you're doing amazing work. And, and I think it's [00:05:00] that like the power of both the neurodiversity alliance and the summit and the event itself, but like that feeling of like seeing aspects of yourself mirrored back to you and then feeling like a whole room full of humans embrace it and like.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Get it and roll with it and then like, almost like bounce it back. It's like, it just, it just, it carries such like, it, I love that you said it's like the appropriate, and I almost wanna throw in like, it's like safe enough and that, and it's not necessarily like we, I know Brene Brown talks a lot about like, oh, you have to be vulnerable in order to, to create a sense of safety.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Right. But like, to me it's also, it's that, like, that experience of. Every person I imagine has done that behind a closed door. No human being on, on, on, on, on. Talk, talk, talk. Huge lecture room. I'm speaking to a big event now. I'm, you know, talking to one-on-one, someone and trying to explain, you know, Hey, we do [00:06:00] this amazing work.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You're right, like there's so many tasks. There's so many. Environments and audiences and transitions like, I think neuros, spicy or not a human is gonna like, come home and like, like, take your shoes off. Or like, you fall asleep in bed with your shoes on. You know, like you just like blah. Like you have to like decompress.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I, the thing, I want to make it clear, it's like it wasn't, it wasn't like you just went blah and like melted. Although again, that would be welcome as well. I have a memory of you coming in and you going, hey. I, I'm just gonna lie down. Is it okay if I lie down and for everyone listening on a sensory level, laying down on your back with your feet up or your knees up, you know, whatever's suitable for your, for your being and body.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So great to like get your vagus nerve, your parasympathetic nervous system going to, to bring all the blood back to your internal organs essentially, and like force you to feel like. I am in this room and I'm okay. [00:07:00] You know, like it's a very, you could do it for a side note, do it for at least 20 minutes, especially if you've been really activated all day.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And if you do it before bed, it'll help you like transition to sleep so much better. By the way,
DAVID KESSLER: so Isabel, it sounds like you're saying if people lay down, it can slow down their nervous system and if they're overwhelmed or feeling too much pressure laying down can be a little bit of a pressure release valve.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes, because think of it this way, when you're activated and you're go, go, go your fight, flight, or freeze, right? The blood is going to your extremities to try like your arms, your legs, to try to, and also your sense organs to try to like keep you on alert and keep you active and like help you have the energy to run or fight the tiger, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So when you're, first of all, when you're laying down with your feet up. You're telling your body without realizing it, oh, there is no tiger right now. Right? Because I guess if there was, I'd be dead. So surprise, you're not dead and you're not dying. Yay. Good job. But it also then literally gets the blood from your legs like it, like it's just [00:08:00] gravity, forcing it back to your internal organs, which is oddly enough when we switch to rest and digest, which is that.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Um, restorative. We call it the parasympathetic. It's the part of our nervous system that comes in when we've been activated that goes, Hey, hey, hey, you made it. Relax. Now let's like help you absorb nutrients and get the poops out. Um, side note, also typical too while you do this to suddenly feel nur to go to the bathroom, need to go.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Number one. Number two, feel burps. 'cause it's a good sign that your digestion is coming back online, which it tends to not when you're running from a tiger again. So long-winded way of saying, Jesse, you actually were doing something physiologically that like. Was so wise just by listening to yourself.
DAVID KESSLER: So it's so powerful.
DAVID KESSLER: I'm gonna wait. I'm grabbing the wheel. I'm grabbing the wheel. Yes,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: please. Sorry.
DAVID KESSLER: Because No, don't apologize. You're just like dropping amazing bombs and like laying a golden track and this amazing, and who hates gold? No one. Jesse, [00:09:00] what I'm, what I'm thinking about for you is a couple things. Can you. I don't think there's a better person in the world.
DAVID KESSLER: And if, and if you don't wanna answer this right now, you can say no, and I'll just keep going. But I don't think there's a better person in the world to talk about what the Neurodiversity Alliance is and what it's trying to do for the world. Um, I'm incredibly biased towards this organization, so, so I'm, I'm gonna take a second.
DAVID KESSLER: Would you mind, like, you are the president, you, you have been a part of this organization on so many different levels from the ground up. Please. Jesse, what is the Neurodiversity Alliance?
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): So the Neurodiversity Alliance is a national student organization. Um, we are on college, high school and middle school campuses across the United States.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): We are an organization for and by neurodivergent students, so we create a network of neurodiversity, um, affinity, ident identity based clubs where students can raise awareness around neurodiversity. Um, [00:10:00] celebrate neurodiversity. Um. And also, uh, exercise leadership and service skills. So one of the things we do is we have our students go into their local, uh, their local community and they volunteer and they mentor and they coach younger neurodivergent students.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Um, but we also provide scholarships. We also provide, um, paid professional internships for neurodivergent students so they can really have, um. Pathways for transition from post-secondary into the workplace. Um, so that's who we are. That's what we do. This is an evolution, uh, that, uh, this community and organization has been on since we were founded in the 1990s.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Um, we were originally called the Eye-to-Eye Mentoring Program. It was last year that we really rebranded as the Neurodiversity Alliance and centered on our, um, student club, uh, model. But you know, my origin story to this [00:11:00] community, to this movement is, um, is as someone who's neurodivergent myself, someone with a DHD and multiple learning disabilities or learning differences, if you prefer that parlance.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): And you know, my big challenge was when I moved away to college and I just had a ton of stigma. Lack of awareness and confusion around my own neurodivergence. You know, I was confused on why it was the case that when I was studying in my dorm with my dorm mates, that they were like sitting and cranking through their midterms and I just.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Either couldn't get started or needed to get up and change my environment five times and study through the night. And I just, it was so evident to me how I moved through the world differently, but I didn't understand why other than maybe I was wrong that it was wrong or I was broken, or I was disabled.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): I think I struggled with belonging in college because of that. And then it wasn't until, you know, the earlier version of [00:12:00] this organization had reached out to my college and I saw an email through the disability. Service office to start a chapter of the then Eye to eye mentoring program that I thought, wow, I think this would be really good for me.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): I think this is something that I, I need, I need a community. I need some understanding around why I received disability accommodations in school for 12 years, and no one told me. I didn't really understand why. And that's when I went to this Neurodiversity leadership summit that we were just talking about in August.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): I went to that myself in 2010, and I met you, David and I met other students like you who normalized Neurodivergence and were understood what it meant to be A DHD and proud to be and knew how to care for yourself and self-regulate and understood that disability accommodations were not. A crutch. Right?
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): And that was so transformational for me that [00:13:00] this became a lifelong community.
DAVID KESSLER: What's so, what's so incredible is this, is this organization like Eye to Eye, neurodiversity Alliance, there's data to support how effective this is at changing the lives of people. Because otherwise, you know, we can, we can feel like a bit of a cult.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, oh, we went to do this process and we had these groups and mentored people, and now look at all how great we are. But I think like, which is true by the way. Not, not that it's cult, but it's great. Um, but there's data to support. What, what happens when people move through this program? What happens when they get mentoring?
DAVID KESSLER: What happens when they aren't alone and when they know how to advocate for themselves? There's incredible returns around self-esteem and grades, right? Like this is something, not that, you know, the Neurodiversity Alliance is about making people get great grades, but there's incredible amounts of data scientifically that proves what we're talking about is actually effective in the world.
DAVID KESSLER: And it'll sometimes it feels like, um. I don't know, like Jesse, it feels like you and you know, eye to eye, [00:14:00] David Marcus Laderrick, like that there has been like a tip of the spear, uh, that has been, I think, validating for me that I'm not wrong for doing it different. That there are, that there are different ways of doing the same thing.
DAVID KESSLER: That when we have to put ourselves in a box like that doesn't work for everyone and you're not cheating to leave the box. And it's really important for, for me to validate like these massive schema changes, which I mean like the, the rote ways we see the world. Fundamentally change through coffee at the, in the back of a restaurant at Kabar in Providence, just because we're both in a place we've never been before, but we're talking like, you know, in Incre, like in passion because we both have a DHD and we're not hiding.
DAVID KESSLER: It's like these transformative moments don't happen because you were at this really expensive training or that you saw this fancy doctor. It's that you found real people that make you feel whole again.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And I, I do wanna go back to the data though. So [00:15:00] David, as you talked about the impact of our programming, I, I was like, okay, well I wanna, I wanna reference something here.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): I just did a quick, uh, Google search on some of one of our studies. So we actually have a study that was published in a scientific paper, and then it was actually published on the National Institute of Justice. Cool. On the Department of Government. Yeah, crime solutions.ojp.gov. Um, to talk about the efficacy of this program, let me just share a few outcomes.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): So depression. Half of the students found that depression scores decreased from the fall to the spring semester for, um, the mentor to treatment group in our program, whereas depression scores increased for the non mentored control group. These differences were statistically significant indicating a moderate estimated program effect for the mentored treatment group compared with the control non mentor group.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): These are middle school students, um, around the US who are neurodivergent. [00:16:00] Self-esteem scores for the mentored treatment group increased over the program period, whereas self-esteem scores. Decreased for the controlled non mentor group. These differences were statistically significant indicating a large estimated program effect for the mentor treatment group compared to the non-group.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): But the, the big takeaway from this paper was the protective effect against depression. Mm-hmm. For middle school students who are neurodivergent, who have a near peer mentor in, participate in our program and go through our, our curriculum
DAVID KESSLER: and, and I'll be bombastic just for a second when we're talking about self-esteem.
DAVID KESSLER: And we're talking about feeling better about who you are, feeling less depressed. We're talking about building an identity.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Yeah. And, and, and that's the, that's like probably the single core focus in terms of our program outcomes is positive identity development for students who are neuro diver. Right.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): And I like to think of it as it's really integrating your neurodivergence [00:17:00] into your identity and feeling positive about who you are because of that. And I think the reality is, and you, you all are, you know, clinicians and even much more experts than I am, but the reality is from my own lived experience and what I've seen from our, our students and our alumni is that it's your neurodivergence.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): As a young person, that often is the source of your sense of inadequacy, shame, punishment, which is why our focus on positive identity development is so critical.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: First off, right when you were describing, I think that's so important. Just like, okay, back it up. Just on like a super researchy, nerdy level. I just wanna make clear how hard it is for statistical significance to occur.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So again, like think of it this way, like the whole point of a good solid peer reviewed study like you were a part of, right? And is that like you're reporting on whatever [00:18:00] happened, you're not like. Saying, oh, we definitely want it to go this way, or We definitely want it to go this way. Right? Like, the whole point ideally, um, is to say, Hey, we tried to eliminate as many variables as possible and here's what came out right.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: The thing I cannot tell you that is so incredible is you don't just see a positive effect, right, of being a part of the program, but you're also then seeing a statistically significant negative effect in the other direction, especially around depression. Around self-esteem. So think of it this way, it's like, uh oh, what was this example?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Uh, okay, this is a weird example, but like imagine you're sitting down to order breakfast, and if you're like me, you want a fried egg, I want some bacon and I want my gluten-free. If they're magical biscuits, right? And imagine you get your plate in front of you. On top of it, they've included like a fruit, a fruit bowl of all your favorite fruit, [00:19:00] and a fresh coffee drink or tea drink of your, of your choosing.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That would be the positive effect. But then the thing they don't include is they didn't give me a bill. My breakfast is free surprise. That's now including the not negative effect.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): Where my mind is going now is like you think about like the cost, so you're talking about the societal cost, right? We could like measure the economic cost, the productivity loss.
JESSE SANCHEZ (GUEST): I'm thinking of like organizations and corporations and like the cost of like lost worker productivity as a result of depression, right? Or untreated or unrecognized neuro divergence. Those. That's kinda what's coming up for me as you're talking about that.
DAVID KESSLER: Yes. And because we're talking about changing the way people see themselves, not manipulating them, but changing the way they see themselves.
DAVID KESSLER: We have to look at the, I look at this with like really heavy nerd lenses. 'cause I play DD and I like that kind of stuff. So it's like you're walking around with some depression and some wizard goes, ha have your depression. And it like goes down in half and you're like, whoa, I feel a lot better. [00:20:00] And then they give you little tails, man.
DAVID KESSLER: And they're like, now you are more resilient. You will not get depressed next time when something hits you. It's like, there's this, there's, you're not just feeling better 'cause you saw a movie. Or you had a really good dinner, or you did, you're feeling better because that happened and you are less likely to get sad when similar things happen in the future.
DAVID KESSLER: That's incredible, and that has long trajectories in terms of the way people decide they wanna work with the world, the kind of employees that they are. Just like you're saying, just the kind of way you show up in relationships and in friendships is really predicated on the way you see yourself in the world.
DAVID KESSLER: And if you see yourself as a person, that's to hide who you are. It makes it really hard to really be vulnerable and have these relationships and feel confident and you know, have all these booms in life. So yes, the Neurodiversity Alliance is here to change the world.
DAVID KESSLER: Thank you so much
DAVID KESSLER: for listening. If you ever have that thought where you think, Hey, I have nothing, stop.
DAVID KESSLER: Remember, you're sober. Something's shiny.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's right. Just as you are. If you like [00:21:00] what you heard and you want to hear more free episodes of this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review anywhere you listen to podcasts or on Instagram as something shiny podcast. And if you're looking for more information, useful links, definitions, visuals, everything we can think of and more is on our website at.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Something shiny podcast.com and it's all free. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in two weeks.