So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

“I am redefining what success means to me.” - Ashley Herd

What if the way we think about careers, leadership, and success is completely wrong?

In this episode of So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey sit down with Ashley Herd, Founder of Manager Method, workplace expert, content creator, and author, to unpack what it actually means to lead, build a career, and show up as a human at work.

Ashley shares her journey from employment lawyer to in-house counsel to entrepreneur, and how a non-linear “career quilt” ultimately led her to building a platform that’s reshaping how people think about management. Along the way, she gets real about burnout, identity shifts, and the uncomfortable truth that many workplace norms still prioritize speed over thoughtfulness, and hierarchy over humanity.

This conversation is equal parts practical and perspective-shifting, especially for anyone working inside law firms, where influence often exists without authority.

You’ll hear about:
  • Why Ashley left law to build Manager Method
  • The concept of a “career quilt” vs. a traditional career path
  • How to lead and influence when you don’t have formal authority
  • The Pause, Consider, Act framework — and why it matters more than ever
  • What legal marketers and lawyers can learn from in-house client perspectives
  • Why asking your clients questions is still wildly underutilized (and powerful)
  • The reality of workplace culture — and how it shows up when people resign
  • “Luke” — the fictional (but very real) bad manager we’ve all worked with
  • How Ashley built her platform (and podcast) through simple, human outreach
  • Why redefining success might be the most important work you do

About Ashley Herd:

Ashley Herd is the founder of Manager Method, where she helps leaders become better managers through practical, human-centered approaches. A former employment lawyer and in-house counsel, Ashley now creates widely recognized workplace content across LinkedIn and social media, teaches leadership through her courses, and is the author of her recent book on modern management.

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This episode is brought to you by HeyCounsel

Starting and running your own law firm can be scary, and honestly, pretty lonely. But it doesn’t have to be. After nine years in-house, Brian Scherer set out on his own and realized something: lawyers at big firms have access to resources, connections, and support systems that solo and small firm lawyers often don’t. So he built HeyCounsel to change that. When you join the HeyCounsel community, you get immediate access to an insane amount of resources, templates, free CLEs, masterminds, exclusive events and discounts to tech and tools to run your practice. It's like having big-firm power without having to join a big firm. You can join HeyCounsel for less than $65/mo with our discount code "SOMUCH". To learn more about HeyCounsel, visit them at heycounsel.com.


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Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Ashley Herd: Really think about for yourself what success means to you. And for me, I am redefining that. What took me many, many years to learn is success does not have to be something somebody else defines for you or some rubric. Think about what that looks like. There are financial components to it, but there is a life component to it in any industry, including the legal environment.
[00:00:21] And so I'm constantly focusing on them like, what does that actually mean to me?
[00:00:26] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started.
[00:00:44] It feels almost impossible to log onto LinkedIn and not see Ashley Herd's content. She makes really practical videos from an HR perspective, and if you are like me, you maybe have grown up thinking that HR is not your friend, and Ashley totally flips all of that on its head. What I love so much about the conversation that we're going to have is Ashley has had a few career pivots.
[00:01:13] Now she frames that as a career quilt and she talks about that in her book, the Manager Method. Ashley also makes these really practical and funny reenactment videos where we have all encountered someone like that in our lives. What's really fun about the conversation that we're going to have is not only does Ashley give an HR perspective, but she does it from the lens of a lawyer, which is fitting 'cause we have a legal podcast.
[00:01:41] She also talks about one of our favorite topics, which is how outside counsel can delight in-house counsel, and it is so simple and it's a thread that you hear throughout all of our episodes. So you're gonna wanna listen in to find out what it is.
This episode is sponsored by, HeyCounsel:
Starting and running your own law firm can be scary and honestly pretty lonely, but it doesn't have to be. After nine years in-house, Brian Scherer set out on his own and realized something. Lawyers at big firm have access to resources, connections, support systems that solo and small firm lawyers often don't. So he built HeyCounsel to change all of that. When you join their community, you also get immediate access to an insane amount of resources, templates, free CLEs, Masterminds, exclusive events and discounts to tech and tools to run your practice.
[00:02:35] It's like having big firm power without having to join the big firm. And who doesn't want that? stage works with solo law firm owners and big law firm partners, and that's why we're excited to bring you this episode sponsored by HeyCounsel.
For listeners who want to sign up, you can sign up at heycounsel.com, and our listeners are getting a 20% off discount code by using SOMUCH, S-O-M-U-C-H.
[00:03:04] Megan Senese: I’m like, I have your book right here.
[00:03:07] Ashley Herd: Oh, thank you.
[00:03:08] Jennifer Ramsey: Congratulations too, by the way.
[00:03:10] Ashley Herd: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:03:11] Jennifer Ramsey: February 10th, right? It came
[00:03:13] Ashley Herd: out. Hey, look at this. Amazing. I know. I love legal. Legal. I get it. You know, doing the research. I'm with my people. Thank you.
[00:03:20] Jennifer Ramsey: You Oh, you are. We are so happy to have you. And, and it was your birthday last week.
[00:03:26] Ashley Herd: What is happening? Yes. It was March 16th, isn't there? You follow Pisces?
[00:03:31] Jennifer Ramsey: No, I'm actually a Leo. Okay. But I, um, I, I saw your carousel. Five things I learned when I turned 45. Yes. And I was like, oh my gosh. We have like a birthday in the house.
[00:03:42] Ashley Herd: Yes. So it was my, it was a Monday, a Monday birthday mom. Yeah. But, um, you know, still made it fun.
[00:03:48] Jennifer Ramsey: It was, it was on St. Patrick's Eve. So that's
[00:03:50] Ashley Herd: exactly, exactly, exactly.
[00:03:51] Megan Senese: The start of a week is, is like a good inflection point. I'm, I'm in the middle of reading, in addition to your book. I'm in the middle of reading, uh, the scientific timing of when,
[00:04:02] Ashley Herd: oh,
[00:04:02] Megan Senese: it's really good. It's by Dan Pink. It's, it's, I think older.
[00:04:06] It's all of these different inflection points about when to. Do certain things, when to not make decisions, when to make decisions in the start of a week as like representing for all humans, just like a refresh. They also talked about how you should never make a decision between two and 4:00 PM if you're a morning,
[00:04:24] Ashley Herd: oh my
[00:04:25] Megan Senese: gosh, a morning bird.
[00:04:26] And they went through a whole scenario of, of why that is and why humans are really bad at making decisions during those time periods. Shouldn't be driving, shouldn't be doing surgery like so many.
[00:04:37] Ashley Herd: Ooh, now I'm, I'm, I will definitely get that one. I love that.
[00:04:40] Megan Senese: Yeah. It's really, it's really good. And so, uh, sometimes I even think about, you know, the timing of our podcast where I'm like, thank God our podcast is not at two o'clock.
[00:04:49] Ashley Herd: Right? I know. I had to double check. I was like, okay, we're one, we're one Easter
[00:04:52] Megan Senese: Eastern. We should be fine. But it's essentially like humans get drunk by the time two o'clock comes along. I'm drunk in that we are decision fatigued. Yeah. Um, I would assume that would probably be another time to not do like a HR conversation.
[00:05:06] Shouldn't be at 2:00 PM.
[00:05:07] Ashley Herd: No, it's, well, it is. It's like people, you know, my, my husband and I worked together now, uh, he joined about a year ago, but he, for years, I'd, I'd heard him when we worked from home and he'd have these sayings. One is practical and tactical, which you now see on my website. I used to tease him for years 'cause I'm like, that means the same thing.
[00:05:22] They just rhyme. And he's like, I know, but it sounds great. I'm like, it's basically, it's pretty similar. But he also says the analysis paralysis. Um,
[00:05:29] Jennifer Ramsey: yes.
[00:05:30] Ashley Herd: Which is true. And so I do think from two o'clock on I can't make another decision. Certainly not. What's for dinner or mom, what's my snack or any of that stuff.
[00:05:38] Megan Senese: Yeah. Yeah. So I'd love to just talk about all the things. I mean, I think, I think the part that I miss often is that you have this legal background, and so I'd just love to talk about how did this all start? I'm sure you've told the story like a thousand times, but maybe you can spice it up and give us a version that you haven't told anybody before.
[00:05:59] Ashley Herd: I will, I'm happy to, I'm always happy to spice it up. So I, I do have a legal background. I actually worked for two years between college and law school. Uh, I worked in, uh, B2B sales, like pretty hardcore. Cold calling sales, cold calling chief financial officers, and then meeting with heads of hr. And so I did have that kind of different professional background, but when I was a kid, I first wanted to be a playwright.
[00:06:22] I always wanted to be a playwright, and so I say now my career quilt is I make like 59 second plays that I, that I, I both write and, and act in on social media. Um, but I, I also decided I wanted to be a lawyer, but I didn't have any lawyers in my family at all. And so I just had this idea and. You know, I, I went and worked in corporate 'cause I'd gone to a small liberal arts school in Kentucky.
[00:06:45] Kind of wanted to get my chops. I worked in DC I felt like that was getting my chops, um, was moving to osmosis. But, um, when I worked with the program at Heads of hr, they'd said, oh, go into law school. 'cause I, I was, was always very conversational during my sales meetings, but, so I'm actually gonna law school and they'd say, oh, you should go into employment law.
[00:07:03] You will never be at lack for work. So I started out in employment law, actually interned, uh, for during my first year I worked kind of part-time for a lawyer who did both employee and employer side. And, and so that was actually really informational for me. And then I went on in manage management side.
[00:07:18] So I did management side and I, um, about four years in, I went in-house. And so I went from being an employment lawyer to learning IP and corporate working for a publicly traded. Company. We had at that time, 7,000 employees, and I was the third lawyer added. And so wow. We were a lean team, but I also worked eight to five, and we were able to really streamline things.
[00:07:40] It was the dream, kind of in-house schedule. I love my job, but I always felt like this. Situational janitor or the pressures of legal that you feel like you need to be perfect and quick and immediate. And at a certain point in time, I just always had this push to do something different. And so I took my experience in legal and I'd also taken on HR and do it to start, to start my own business to, to use my experience, but use it in a different way.
[00:08:08] Megan Senese: Hmm. Was there like a big aha moment? Uh, you talk a little bit about it in your book that you had hit your, you know, finally found your dream job and then, you know, dreams change, right. So what, what was that moment like for you?
[00:08:19] Ashley Herd: For a period of time when both my kids were little, we moved back to Louisville.
[00:08:22] So I live in Atlanta now, but we moved back to Louisville. I worked for KFC, but as we were at my parents' house, my dad's like, oh, let's, let's think about like, if we were all to start a business, what would that be? And, and none of us were entrepreneurs. My mom actually had. Gone to law school later in life.
[00:08:35] I think she just graduated at this point in time, like she graduated in her fifties. Oh. I thought, oh, I, I love this idea. I always had this little tiny spark. And so I did first have this idea, I've never told anybody this on a PO podcast. Yeah. I had, I, I don't think I own the damn domain anymore, but I had an idea for a company called.
[00:08:53] Passenger force. And the idea was for, for my mom's, like a milestone birthday, we'd gotten her, um, a night at this hotel, 21 C. They have 'em in Louisville, they have 'em in some other cities, but it's like a very quirky, funky hotel. But they picked my mom up at her house in a limo that was bedazzled with red, like sequence, all fully, like bless the person that did that Anyway, but when.
[00:09:13] They'd called me a few days before and had said, oh, look, what kind of music does she liked Al Green. So when she got to the hotel, she walked in, there was an iPod on the speaker playing Al Green, and she talked all about this to everyone. Like, oh, my, my, my kids did this for me, da, da, da. But Al Green was playing and it stuck with me of just that basic level of personalization.
[00:09:33] Yeah. Normally when you travel like airline, you may get like window, aisle or hotel, like high floor. It's really hard to get personal details and you certainly don't wanna enter it. So I had this idea to create a database where you would put your, some of the things you like, your music, your candy things, and they would sell that to like travel and Uber and things like that.
[00:09:52] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh, I like that.
[00:09:54] Ashley Herd: So,
[00:09:54] Jennifer Ramsey: I mean. Very entrepreneurial. I love the So what happened? Why
[00:09:57] Megan Senese: didn't you
[00:09:58] Jennifer Ramsey: follow
[00:09:58] Ashley Herd: up with that? Well, because I kept reading things that said, oh, if you wanna start it and get money, you really need to quit your job. And unfortunately, I don't know how people do it, but I had law school loans.
[00:10:08] Um, yeah. And that wasn't gonna happen. That literally just wasn't gonna happen. And so, I mean, I made a deck that had these projections. I mean, this was before AI or anything like that. They just were from the back of my head. And so I'd passenger force, you know, that idea never took off. Uh, sharks feel free to invest, um, in that, uh, 10 plus years later.
[00:10:27] But, but we had lived as a family from 2016 to 2018. We left Louisville and moved to Sydney, Australia. Uh, this was for my husband's job. And they had, he had the opportunity basically to move up. He'd, we'd either have to move back to DC or go to Australia. Mm-hmm. Uh, it was a terrible thing professionally for me.
[00:10:44] I had just moved into the leadership level at Yum. Brands. I gave up a lot, uh, by doing that. But we said yes and, um, took it on. But when I lived in Sydney, I worked, actually was able to rejoin a prior company that had spun off from a larger company. So I joined, uh, became their, uh, uh, in-house lawyer, got promoted to gc.
[00:11:03] Basically I was doing the same job. I got a, got the title and um, then head of hr. But while I was there trying to figure out if we stayed here, what would I do? Because I couldn't practice in Australia and I bought the domain manager method.com.
[00:11:14] Jennifer Ramsey: I read about you talking about your career stitch versus climbing the corporate ladder, career quilt.
[00:11:21] It sounds like you're describing kind of how you came up with the evolution or the, the thinking of that career quilt. 'cause it's, you know, career is not totally linear. Sometimes it's sidestep and you're like, oh, this didn't work out for me, or, oh, I got fired, whatever the case may be like. It was a really interesting way to think of it, the way you framed it, because I've always.
[00:11:43] I'm like, God, I hated a lot of the jobs that I had when I first graduated from college. 'cause I was in finance and they were like super stressful demands competitive. And even working in big law is le in legal marketing was sometimes a little, eh, and, but I, it, it's nice to look back on it now with this new framing that you have, the career quilt, like it all happens for a reason.
[00:12:04] And I don't mean that to sound cliche.
[00:12:06] Ashley Herd: Well, I, I like, okay, so Jennifer for that, because I think a lot of people listening probably have this idea of like, okay, I get that question all the time. You all probably do too, of like, how can I do what you do? Or how can I think about things? If there's someone, let's say in big law that's like, I, I do this, I make money.
[00:12:20] It's hard for me to give it up, but it's, I feel like my life is not my own. What would you, how would you phrase that either of you?
[00:12:28] Megan Senese: I think there's so much that we make decisions based on finances and rightfully so and so for my house and my family to, to make this jump for us, we took it as a, as a, an entire year to decide how much money did we actually need.
[00:12:44] Like we did this entire revisit of our finances just to see if this was going to work before we even really launched. But before that, even, I had been interviewing for all of these positions where. It was the first time ever where I started interviewing and I started saying no to things to allow for the space and the opportunity.
[00:13:03] So when Jen said, I have this idea, it was a hands down, no brainer. Yes. But again, if Jen had asked me two years or three years prior, like I wouldn't have been ready. And so there's so much like thinking about what do you want for your life? And then everybody can answer that. But then it's like, can I financially do it?
[00:13:23] It was a risk, but my, my family, my husband and I decided to do it together and there's really, in a lot of ways, there's no way that that wouldn't have been able to happen if we didn't plan for that for a year financially, to think about like, what does this risk look like? Luckily for us, since, for stage and my family, we didn't need to like pull in, in a, any of our like emergency resources.
[00:13:42] We, it was fine, but that gave me the confidence to say like, let's just go for it. Let's do it. Let's try.
[00:13:51] Jennifer Ramsey: I just felt stuck, honestly, like I worked at one law firm for 20 years. I, I pick and I stick and I felt stuck. I, I live in San Diego, I live in a small market. There's not a plethora of legal marketing jobs here, so it wasn't like I could go find a new job, so I just, it was kind of out of like, I needed to leave for many reasons.
[00:14:12] And I also wanna. I got a, I got a question for you about that, Ashley. Um, but I needed to leave and I didn't have any really viable alternative. I, there were no legal marketing jobs and I was, I had gotten a career counselor, but she really just rewrote my resume and, uh. I couldn't find any jobs in anywhere.
[00:14:31] And because I, I was having a hard time articulating like, how do my, how do my skill sets is B2B, professional services, marketing and selling? How do they translate? And so I was just like, well, I get, you know what? I know how to do legal marketing. Maybe I can convince Megan, um, to like, come with me and freaking jump off the cliff and, you know, that's, that's how we got here.
[00:14:54] Um, but it's, I don't know what I would say to legal marketers, you know now, and that is our audience. So Ashley, so you know, like the people who are listening to this are legal marketers, business developers and lawyers of at, at law firms of all sizes. And so the law firm environment is a completely different dynamic.
[00:15:11] And you were in it, so you know. Um, you know, like what the way that good management happens and bad management happens, and good HR happens and bad HR happens. And so I guess to weave this back into a question like, you know, legal marketers a lot of times have to manage without authority, right? Because like, they can, we might have teams of people who we manage, but we are working with lawyers and they're the owners.
[00:15:38] At the law firm, like how do, how, like what do, what kind of advice? Like it's very hard to be in a, in a legal market or business development role sometimes, and you have a lot of responsibility writing on you, but you're not really in any position of authority.
[00:15:53] Ashley Herd: It's, it's absolutely true and I, I spoke a bit on this, so I just spoke, uh, shout out a few weeks ago to the Golden Gate Association of Legal Administrators.
[00:16:00] And so I know overall the, the whole, the national, uh, association of Legal Administrators, really great, really great supportive group. It was my first time. I've known people who are members and no members, but it was my first time getting together with the group and it was fantastic. Um. To, to have conversations with them in, in, of all different firms, big firms, small firms, social justice firm.
[00:16:22] I mean, all sorts. And, and one thing that I think can really be helpful, that you can have as a, as a outside perspective, although plenty in that role may have a legal background and you're trying to, you know, weave your career quilt, but to talking, you know, first of all, leading with like, everything I'm doing is to make you more money.
[00:16:39] Like, okay, lawyers, okay, you, I've got, you've got my attention. I'm a lawyer, I'm gonna make you more money. But so often lawyers in particular, and I see this like. Lawyers, doctors, professors, when you are an expert, you are thinking through your own lens. And so I saw it when I went from law firm lawyer to in-house counsel of like the tips I would give to people that were like, not just junior lawyers, but otherwise like, okay, if you're gonna increase the rate, like let's have a conversation about the do not, please don't surprise me on the bill.
[00:17:05] That's not gonna work out. Yeah. Like, ooh, I may not notice, but when I do, like I'm gonna be going back through those bills or Yeah. But thinking about that perspective. And so one thing from a marketing perspective is. When people are coming, clients are making decisions and they're making decisions all the time.
[00:17:19] They're making decisions. It used to be the decision of, should I hire this lawyer and then over time should I keep this lawyer? So think from that perspective and what are the things that you think can stand out? What are things from the clients if you don't know? Have conversations with the clients and ask them, I've only had one lawyer, one outside law firm counsel I worked with that had that conversation with me of, Hey, I'm just curious.
[00:17:41] Is a newer a newer associate? You shouldn't need that. But it was a good, I guess, excuse for it. Like, Hey, tell me from in-house counsel perspective, and we're not billing you for this time, but how do you think about our firm? And I was so delighted by that conversation. It really is an important one, but I think using that framing to think about it, because now the other, you know, third question is, should, can I use AI for this?
[00:18:05] Uh, yeah. Which, which is, you know, at, at your peril. But, but yeah. Right,
[00:18:11] Jennifer Ramsey: right.
[00:18:11] Ashley Herd: I mean, some other words beyond that, but, but also recognizing what the role of AI is. Hey, this is how we are using things for efficiency, but not to sacrifice your confidentiality or our quality, our human judgment. The firms that are doing those things are fewer and far between than those that never have the conversation.
[00:18:27] And so I think my one biggest takeaway and keep listening don't, don't hang up now, but is you use your perspective to have hu have that human lens and think about the people making decisions and what lawyers can do and, and it's harder to have those conversations with more senior lawyers, but when you can have that and make them shift that perspective, again, sometimes the framing of more money.
[00:18:49] You are doing a service to that firm, but also to those clients.
[00:18:52] Megan Senese: We love getting the proof because we as business developers, as legal marketers know you're supposed to talk to your clients, which means general counsel in-house lawyers. The further away we get from being in our corporate life, at least for me, I've realized that people are just terrified of asking the questions.
[00:19:08] And so we've had in-house counsel on in the past. The best way to find out is to ask us, and it's tricky sometimes when legal marketers are not allowed to talk to the clients, but the lawyers can, right? And so then this, we can use this as proof to say, well, you want precedent. We have a podcast where the former in-house people are saying, come ask us.
[00:19:29] Jennifer Ramsey: How and how rare it is. And how rare it's, how
[00:19:30] Megan Senese: rare
[00:19:30] Jennifer Ramsey: it's, and how delightful you, you found it to be. I mean, the proof's in the pudding. I hope everyone's hearing this.
[00:19:37] Megan Senese: Yeah, I, I, I like that. I think for the, when I originally was like thinking about, you know, look, starting to get your book and reading it, I was thinking about internal departments and then all of a sudden I was like, oh my gosh.
[00:19:49] Of course lawyers are also managers, and I think there's this like perception of what a manager looks like, what a title is. I never really thought about. Lawyers being managers, you just think of lawyers being like senior manager or a partner or senior associate. Right. And so, and I think I saw somebody posting a b uh, a picture of your book and they were like Dr.
[00:20:08] A, a boat captain of like a, like a major cruise line. Is that.
[00:20:12] Ashley Herd: Yes. But yes, captain Matt, my, my boat captain from my celebrity cruise last summer to Alaska. He's now with Disney Cruise Line, but he got my boat,
[00:20:20] Megan Senese: right? So my boat captains, partners of law firms, right? So the manager method applies to so many people and it also applies to just thinking about how are.
[00:20:29] It's not like this is what this person should do, it's how do I show up And what I like about, you know, our show is called So Much to Say a legal podcast for people and you have a lot of emphasis on humans and Right, and so I'd love just to kind of talk about, you have a couple of frameworks in there.
[00:20:44] You pause, consider, act. I'd love to just walk, have you walk us through that and how. Legal professionals can apply that, particularly when it feels like they can't, there's like no pausing allowed. You must respond immediately and it must be correct. And also, can't you just use AI for that? So like what do you even need to pause for?
[00:21:01] Right? So talk, talk to us about that framework and how doesn't matter if you're on the admin side or the legal side or the support staff, like how that can come into play for any position.
[00:21:15] Ashley Herd: My whole book really is around this idea of pause, consider, act. So three steps. They do not sound very revolutionary.
[00:21:21] Uh, but the first pause, it is pause, not stop. And it's for that reason that it's, it's not to say, okay, halt and don't do anything else. Like there is a reason that act is the third step, but it is this aspect of, of pause and we don't do it. I mean, whether, I mean pretty much any role including in legal marketing.
[00:21:40] I could look at a job description and bet with pretty high certainty that the words fast-paced are, are in that and responsive, fast-paced and or those environments. I mean, I've been in them in the law firm environment and in-house and otherwise where it is like a race to reply first. And it feels like speed.
[00:21:58] Speed is first and it's assumed that you'll be accurate, but the fastest wins and that's your value. And if you're not, then okay, well I message you. Where are you? You're on yellow on teams. What is happening? And it's to remember. Pausing is possible, and sometimes that can be a few seconds, it can feel impossible, but it really is.
[00:22:15] I have seen in work and in life a, a superpower for people that can take that opportunity.
[00:22:21] Jennifer Ramsey: I'd be curious, like what does pause look like for you, Ashley? Like how do, because I guess when, when you say pause, it makes me wanna take a really deep breath in and out like that, and it just feels, but I just, I like to know what other, what makes other people pause and how do you do it effectively so that then you can go on to consider an act.
[00:22:40] Ashley Herd: Great. I love, I'd love this. Now we're flipping, flipping it back and I should be able to articulate this. It'd be a real shame. I'm like, oh, lemme get back to you. It, uh, for me, I mean, one helpful thing is now I have made it a habit. I mean, I am not kidding. I have a to-do list. The three things on my to-do list.
[00:22:55] One is, um. Med, which is meditate, which isn't actually meditate. I read a page of, um, melody Beatty's Journey to the Heart. It's like half a page and it's, some of, it's kind of woowoo. I'm not, I'm really not a very woowoo person. I, but I, I love it. And so I do that every day. Uh, I also have Cal, I have a page, a day calendar.
[00:23:11] That's a thousand places to see before you die. I turn a page and I check off that. I've done it every day, but I also have PI have pause. I'll do it more Mondays, for example. Okay, pause. What do I have going on? What does this matter? Uh, I also try to do it on Fridays, end of the week of like, okay, what did I do?
[00:23:28] Why does Friday Ashley hate Monday? Ashley, and how can I provide next, next Monday a like next Monday from hating Friday meet? Like how can I build self-love as opposed to what were you thinking? And so for me, the pause now I really integrate it. I really integrated because I'm much more like Megan of like, I'm quick thinker.
[00:23:46] I, I, or quick speaker at least, maybe not, maybe I could think better. But I do try to intentionally pause and I've really built that in like before. We have a team, we have a lean team of, of five at manager methods, so I. I do try to pause and think about other people's perspectives and so it really has, you know, has started out as living on my to-do list, which is probably a bit embarrassing, but
[00:24:06] Megan Senese: That's fine.
[00:24:07] No, I, I love that and I think that's helpful.
[00:24:09] Jennifer Ramsey: Gotta build the pauses, then
[00:24:10] Megan Senese: you have to build them in
[00:24:11] Jennifer Ramsey: any way you can. Yeah.
[00:24:13] Megan Senese: I, you know, came up, like we talked about so many, uh, came up in big law where you. Being the first to respond. Like, look how responsive Megan is. Right? Like, that's amazing. And she's the winner.
[00:24:23] And so now to, to even take a break, I work in my house and for me to like, why can't I have lunch upstairs in my h Like, like what? You know, so I, I'm so dedicated and, and disciplined, but like sometimes to my detriment, like I will lock in to my desk and sometimes I'll just sit here the whole time. And so for eight hours and so.
[00:24:46] That's like, I need to like take a break. My eyes need a break, my legs need to get up and walk around. And I actually think that if I put it on my to-do list, I probably would actually, I probably would do it. And I think that's a good reminder for people.
[00:24:59] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:24:59] Megan Senese: Just, you know, it's simple, but the simple is like, sometimes that's the best to be able to, to, to drill it down into something that people can actually do.
[00:25:08] Ashley Herd: And it's not just to pause and then sound like intelligent, like sound intelligent, like. I used to wear like a fake glasses to feel like I'd look smart. It's not to pause and then, okay, just go a forth. The consider can be different things. The number one question I say is consider the person on the other side, or what would I wanna have happen if it were me?
[00:25:24] Everybody's not gonna be like you, but like, just like I said from a lawyer perspective, lawyers so often you're coming at, well, I know this. This is, this is it. I mean, I think back to some of the long legal memos. Oh my gosh. Like I wouldn't wanna read that. And so just considering the person on side, considering that that client, and then acting and doing something about it in the law firm environment, one thing is it can often feel like second class citizens.
[00:25:48] Like I, I still know of firms that don't, maybe not officially, but people that will say lawyers and non-lawyers. Lawyers and non-lawyers. Yeah. Or non billers.
[00:25:57] Megan Senese: Yes. Mm-hmm. Non-billable. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, support staff. Staff. Not administered support
[00:26:01] Ashley Herd: staff.
[00:26:01] Megan Senese: Admin. Non-lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent non-partner.
[00:26:05] Ashley Herd: Yeah, exactly. The, the non. Non. And you, and you say it 'cause there's it because you haven't paused to consider. How that feels to people that, again, may have different policies, different expectations, even like work from home and otherwise. And just the, the understanding of that and how much it can matter if you have a leader, especially a lawyer leader at a firm that treats.
[00:26:26] All of this, stab all of those with respect and talks very visibly about what everyone's role is. And it's not just the lawyers that are spouting advice and we're trying to make these beautiful vessels and do whatever it takes to, to make their lives easier. But really talking about overall what makes the firm stand out so few again, so rarely does that happen.
[00:26:46] And so for me, I mean, I saw that when I worked in law firms and otherwise I had friends in in every level. And I saw that visibly. I was in-house counsel at McKinsey, and I lived on the other side of that at McKinsey. They had a lawyer in private practice in-house. When I was there, it was about 50 50 of consultants and non-con consultants, and I just saw sometimes the difference in experiences and the best leaders I knew actively went out of their way to talk about the firm overall and how everyone, no matter whether you were, you know, delivering a report or you were.
[00:27:19] Behind the scenes really had an impact, and I do think that makes an impact on people and the work that they do and how long they wanna stay. Much more than, than plenty realize.
[00:27:28] Megan Senese: Well, and that impacts the, the, the bottom line too, right? I mean, I know you, you talk about, I mean, we know this in theory, right?
[00:27:34] And you talk about retention and how expensive it is to replace people and finding that perfect job and, and all of that, right? That, so you only care about money, right? Like, this is what I used to say when I was looking for jobs. The beginning. I used to be like, just pretend at least at the onset that you care.
[00:27:49] So I would look for like. Firms, they don't have this anymore, but firms that would like win Working Mother award, even though I wasn't a parent at the time, because I was like, at least they're pretending that they care about work-life balance or whatever. Right. I want, I wanna talk about Luke. So where did, where is he, he's fake or is he, where is he not?
[00:28:08] Is he like an a com a, a, a, an tion of people like. Talk to us about him. 'cause he's hilarious and he's so stupid. And I love that. Like these are my words. This is maybe not how you would interpret him, but I think he's like. We all kind of know Luke. We've like worked with the Luke, come across Luke. So talk to us.
[00:28:25] Talk to us about Luke.
[00:28:26] Ashley Herd: So Luke, for those that are like, who is Luke? Luke is my, the fictional CEO, which some people are like, what? He's the CEO. I'm like, I know, uh, his uncle's on the board of directors. This is in my play, my, my, my play. So he is not the, he is not a real person, but he is absolutely an amalgamation of people that.
[00:28:45] You know, maybe I've come across in the, the many years I've, I've been working in different roles and also the stories I get from people in my life who will, or that I, you know, don't even know that, well, that, that validate that Luke is very much a real person. Sure. Um, sometimes with the Peter principal all the way up to the, to the C-E-O-C-E-O role.
[00:29:04] But this aspect of. You know, it's business, it shouldn't care. We can make decisions. People should fall in line. And that, that kind of approach that's, you know, similarly as I, or as I talked about earlier, is that the people that are like, it's all about money. It's about my money, you know, figuring things out.
[00:29:19] I'm in power. That I've seen over all sorts of roles. I mean, before I was in legal and hr, I worked at Subway and Kmart as a sandwich artist and as an electronics associate. And I still often probably feel like I have more in common with those roles than I did in my, uh, legal and HR leadership roles at McKinsey.
[00:29:37] But so it's just knowing that how people feel at work impacts the work that they do. It impacts those things that you talk about from retention, engagement, or client, you know, client roles. I know what it's like to be in-house counsel and to have your favorite outside counsel leave. And also having talked to some of those outside counsel and they're like, well, I would've stayed, but you know, X, Y, Z, that.
[00:29:58] Really was a working condition. And so Luke is, is this, um, really is this character that just doesn't know hardly anything about employment law despite their conversations. Um, it's given me some job security, but it's, it's, it is, it's, you know, Luke, I did Luke as a man. Totally arbitrarily.
[00:30:16] Megan Senese: Yeah,
[00:30:16] Ashley Herd: because.
[00:30:17] People are like, well, what about women at work? I'm like, oh no, there are, there are women that are nightmares to work for
[00:30:22] Megan Senese: sure. Right.
[00:30:22] Ashley Herd: That whether they went through things and rather than smoothing the path for others, they have taken the
[00:30:28] Megan Senese: revenge
[00:30:28] Ashley Herd: opposite approach. Yes. Hazing. Yes, it's hazing like that absolutely lives, you know, Luke really happens to be that, but there are plenty of people that can fill in for Luke.
[00:30:37] Megan Senese: Hmm. What's your favorite Luke skit that you've done?
[00:30:41] Ashley Herd: Well, my, my favorite that I actually recently did and played Luke on both sides of it. 'cause when I first started, I did like these videos where I would be on both sides, but I wouldn't talk. It was like a old like talky movie where I'd have music and have like the text on the background, but also on TikTok.
[00:30:55] It used to be TikTok would randomly. Blow up some of the texts. Even if it looked fine, once you posted it, it would blow up. So then comments would be like,
[00:31:02] Megan Senese: we can't
[00:31:02] Ashley Herd: read this, idiot. This Yeah, idiot. Learn how to edit. No, I, yeah, I promise, I try. Um, I was a lawyer. I'm not, I dunno what I'm doing, but, um, but I, I, I shifted and started like talking and one of the first videos I did, I was funny.
[00:31:16] I was actually going on vacation into Canada and I posted it, but it was about pumping at work and it was comments that I've. Some lived experience having, you know, pumped in a, uh, a it, you know, IT service, you know, server, server it, server room, it, server room. Just that by like, there's no other real place.
[00:31:33] But it was about pumping work. But some of the, some of the comments like, what do we, like, what do we have to do? Like, but that experience and that one, some of it was validating and it, because so many people it, well, it was horrifying. 'cause so many women were talked about their experiences and so it's horrifying.
[00:31:48] 'cause you just read, you're like, okay, I'm really not the only person. Me and my small group of people I've talked with about the experience of this. We are not alone. This is a really common experience. But it was validating because I realized, wait, I could use. I can use my chance to educate on some of these.
[00:32:05] Like, Hey, there are some federal laws. You know, you always have to be careful on not legal advice ever, but, and nobody should get that on social media. But bringing awareness to some of these things both from, Hey, this is yes, what you have to do, but also. What it means when you show support. And also in the comments of people that said, I actually had this environment.
[00:32:23] This is some of the things that my office did, my, my firm did. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:26] Megan Senese: On the
[00:32:27] Ashley Herd: good side and gimme example, example on the positive, on the good side. And people are like, oh, that's cool, that's really cool. So then I'd make a, you know, a video and say, Hey, if you have seen good things, like these are some of the things I've seen.
[00:32:34] What else? Put them in the comments. And that was, uh, almost four years ago, that video. And so that one really hit a wave in the algorithm and kinda, I ended up gaining a bunch of followers from that. So that was like a. Really unique experience, but, um, but Luke, Luke, Luke, really, I had to tell him, please don't make those comments.
[00:32:52] Megan Senese: Every time I'm like, oh God, what has Luke done now? Right? Like, he, like every holiday he's upset that people, you know, have to celebrate every he
[00:33:01] Ashley Herd: does. Yeah. What is this? What is. I mean, some of it was also talking, like some of them that I have had, I made a video about, uh, Ramadan and I, I'm not Muslim, but I had made it because I talked to someone once and they, not in work, but outside of work, and they were like, I don't know what this is.
[00:33:18] Do you know what this EID? And I was like, oh. I'm like, oh, it's, this is the culmination of the month of Ramadan. I'm like, that's a celebration. I'm like, but really? Do you know what Ramadan is? And they're like, how do you know this? I'm like, growing up I had friends who were Muslim and I can't, we learned about this.
[00:33:30] I'm like, I learned about this in sociology at DuPont Manual High School, but at work, I've seen this. And so I'd had conversations with Muslim colleagues during Ramadan and you know, some of them may be fasting, some of 'em aren't. But I'd said, Hey, we're, you know, we aren't gonna, we weren't gonna do lunches or things like that, and had their reaction to that.
[00:33:47] That's like what? Okay. Not, I'm not gonna say water in the desert because like it's, no, you're not drinking wa like other colleagues, not realizing people aren't drinking water or eating and they're doing that for a month,
[00:33:56] Jennifer Ramsey: right?
[00:33:57] Ashley Herd: And bringing that awareness and like, Hey, here's just some of the considerations of things we can do.
[00:34:00] And gotten feedback from some of those of the impact that that can make. Like, I had no idea and now I'm doing some of these things. So for me, that's probably the more, some of the more meaningful things of just bringing that awareness. Luke still trying to pronounce. But there we're,
[00:34:15] Jennifer Ramsey: when we left our law firm, the experience of resigning was not what we expected.
[00:34:21] Megan Senese: Hmm.
[00:34:22] Jennifer Ramsey: And I remember thinking this is a moment where culture shows up or it doesn't because law firms are so into culture. Again, remember, I'm the, I'm the picker and the sticker, so I, I had to spend a lot of time there. It, it was almost like the firm, it was almost like it was. I was in a relationship with the firm.
[00:34:41] I cared so much, and then we resigned and it was not what we expected. And so you've written a lot about how people are treated when they resign, and how much of that actually says about the organization. So what should that moment look like and and where do firms and companies just go really, really wrong in that regard?
[00:35:02] Ashley Herd: Well, lemme flip that back to here. I am flipping it back to you. Is, is is from like when it didn't, when it didn't go how you'd expected.
[00:35:09] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:09] Ashley Herd: How had you expected or at least hoped that it would go?
[00:35:14] Jennifer Ramsey: I thought there was more loyalty. I thought that I had been very loyal and to the firm. And it very much changed, like the relationship just ended.
[00:35:23] Like I said, I, I felt like I was in a relationship. That relationship ended the second we gave notice, and it, it totally changed the way I view loyalty at work.
[00:35:30] Megan Senese: Hmm. But, so I think we have slightly different, not that I jumped around, but I had way more jobs. I worked in way more, I worked in a lot more firms.
[00:35:39] So our resignation did not go the way we expected. Yes. However, I do think that it really came down to just one, one person. And I, I've been trying to really separate it, the firm from that person, because there are plenty of people who, you know, one, it's always this, this actually kind of the similar thing.
[00:36:06] Things come out after the fact. It's reminds me of the same way we had a conversation with, I don't know if you, um, if she's crossed your feet, Ashley, but her name is, uh, Elaine Ling Herring and she has a book called Unlearning Silence. And one of the things we talked about was how come when I raise things.
[00:36:22] Nobody stands up in the moment. It's always after the fact and people are like, I felt the same way. And it wasn't until when we left that after people were like, wow, I was really shitty how you guys were treated. I'm like, well, where were you in the middle of all of this, right? It's, it's that after part.
[00:36:38] And so I've really tried to separate the firm. From that one instance, right, where things didn't go the way that I wanted. And then, and the also, I'm like, well, I don't wanna work here anymore anyway, so it doesn't matter, right? And it was like a, you know, like a, like a breakup. But it's hard when you devote your life to.
[00:36:58] One particular way. And you know, to have that be the, the, the outcome.
[00:37:03] Ashley Herd: It's, I, I mean I, I, I, I, and thank you all for sharing. Now I flipped the script and I did not caution you that I would keep, I would be bouncing these back to you. I am rubber, you're glue. I'm just making it stick back to you. But I can't really remember that.
[00:37:16] But, um, I think that's so really, especially. I do feel like in the law, the law firm environment, because it's, you know, sometimes it's people going to competitors and it's a little unique because there aren't non-competes, uh, for lawyers. The, you know, the one profession that's carved out of non-competes where I made plenty of videos about the non-compete ban that no, it did not take effect.
[00:37:35] If you listen, you're like, what happened with that? Like, nothing, well, plenty, but. Did not take effect. Um, but lawyers haven't, and so it is a bit different than others where it's like fighting and you know, who's, you can go and aside from ethical rules, you, you know, pretty much have, have movability. The movie Frozen is very instructive for, you know, so many things.
[00:37:52] But when they say like, people do bad things because they're mad, scared or stressed, and I have seen that, I have especially seen that with some of the most powerful law firm partners or others that take it as disloyalty and they take that experience. And the way that they react and they just don't realize, they do not pause, consider, act.
[00:38:10] And it's why in, in my book or in my, my social media, in my my manager training courses, I talk about this, about how much it matters and you just don't realize it. Sometimes it's in the second, you may have no idea what applies. 'cause outside of, uh, the lawyer environment, like law firm marketing, you may have non-competes because it is lawyers and law firm marketers.
[00:38:27] It's different. So there may be some other questions we didn't, but Yes, yes. But so, but sometimes you have one and so like you, or you may be a head of marketing, you're like, I have someone. Quit. They have this song, I have no idea what applies, but sometimes it's like, you know, saying, okay, you know, you have taken a step and I, you know, whether it's saying, I'm so sad for us, but I'm so happy for you and I, I want you to know that.
[00:38:48] Let me talk internally and figure things out. And, and, and sometimes you may have a tough master, like, oh, you have this non-computer. People are gonna have to figure that out. But I've had the experience where, I mean, anytime I quit, and to your point. I was so, so stressed about it. So stressed. Like I felt like, you know, oh, I'm gonna
[00:39:04] Megan Senese: like, I'm gonna get in trouble.
[00:39:06] Ashley Herd: Yeah, exactly. Like I'm disappointing people or I'm doing this. I had one once and I was my first in-house job and we moved to Louisville because, uh, 'cause my kids were, were little, I just needed family around. And I resigned to my boss, who's general counsel of a publicly traded company, and he looked and he said, I will miss working with you every single day.
[00:39:25] To this day, he remains a mentor or a friend. I mean, that was now 12 years ago. We are still friendly. When I left, I also was available at any point in time for questions, anything I can do to help. Oh, all of these things. And it just shows that human reaction, even in those tough moments that I know, it's, it's a pain in the ass to rehire and retrain.
[00:39:46] I totally get it, but putting yourself out of it and just separating your own emotions and, and being genuine and saying that to someone. I mean, I, I working together, we had such an awesome team, but that spoke so much about leadership and it's so possible and I do wish more in the legal environment would take on that approach.
[00:40:06] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:40:07] Megan Senese: It, I mean, it makes a big, it makes a big difference, right? And then you think about alumni and you think about re future, like when other people ask, Hey, should I join this firm? You know, we, that will impact how you answer.
[00:40:21] Ashley Herd: People become, I and I have seen and heard, uh, not myself, but I've seen and heard people that take in-house leadership roads roles.
[00:40:29] You never know where things may go, the pleasure they have in removing that, you know, very expensive business from their old firm that treated them poorly and moving it elsewhere. I mean, those, you know, sometimes, again, sometimes that's what really gets people's attention. Hopefully it's. Hopefully there's also the humanity and all that involved, but I know that that is real.
[00:40:48] And so, you know, when I do stuff and work with leaders, including in the law firm environments or legal environments, it is just knowing that the, the conversations you have can have ripple effects far longer than you, than you realize. Yeah. But for better or for worse, both.
[00:41:01] Megan Senese: Yep. Right. Right, right, right. No, I love that so much.
[00:41:05] Uh, so, because I can't help myself in being a business developer, and so I saw this, I read it somewhere. So I wanna verify that this is true that your podcast came to be, 'cause you just simply sent people messages on LinkedIn, your co-host. Is that, is that right?
[00:41:20] Ashley Herd: Yes, yes, yes. Totally. So like re the, the reach out all like, again, the reaching out.
[00:41:25] So I. One day on LinkedIn, I, I'd done some post and I saw it said Le Lee, Elena Henderson had liked this. I had no idea who that was until I saw the picture. I'm like, wait, that's HR Manifesto. I'm like, oh, that is a real purchase, just like me. I'm Ashley Ashley, not Manager Method, but oh, and I looked, oh, I shot off a message.
[00:41:43] I'm so excited. Hey, I'm Ashley. At the time I was like, I'm at Manager Method. I had like 2000 followers and I'm like, I, you know, I've, um, I've worked in legal now, you know, in hr. I love your content. It's so great. I like just love seeing your face pop up on here and seeing your background. It's so cool. If you're ever up for Zoom, let's chat like nine times outta 10.
[00:42:01] You're not gonna get a response. 'cause also, you know, people got, people got stuff to do. She ended up writing, we ended up zooming. So we'd, we'd, we'd become friends for over a year before we started the podcast. Just, um, you know, back and forth and talking about things. I got off of our Zoom, we both had like the free version and so it, um, it cut and she like sent an email that was like, yeah, f like I could have kept on that conversation forever.
[00:42:27] And so, you know, we just kind of hit it. And then Jamie, um, so Jamie, my cohost, she has many social media accounts. Two namely that are. Humorous resources, which is really funny. And Millennial misery.
[00:42:37] Megan Senese: Yeah,
[00:42:38] Ashley Herd: I saw that one. It was like, you know, a million and a half followers. But she started on humorous resources, reposting some of my videos, and I had no idea, like I didn't know who Jamie was.
[00:42:45] Her, her name wasn't evident. I had no idea who it was. I'd messaged, said, oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing my videos. Like, I don't really know Instagram, I don't know what I'm doing. And so we talked and one day she'd reached out because she was having some questions about. Things her work was saying about her social media and, and she's like, I know you can't be my lawyer.
[00:43:03] I was like, no, it's not legal advice, but I'm happy to get on a conversation. We ended up having a conversation and then um, a few, Lee and I had talked about pitching a podcast and then. A few months later, I was at, um, great Wolf Lodge and they had this, like, this like, that's funny. Eighties style hat that was like Great Wolf Lodge.
[00:43:20] Like, like, you know, Lisa Frank, kind of like, yes. And I took a picture and I took a picture and sent it to Jamie, and then I was thinking, and so I was like, oh, this would be kind of fun. Like the, the three of us, I feel like, you know, we have different, different experiences and things in hr and so we first met each other when they both flew to Atlanta.
[00:43:39] We were recording the pod. Mm-hmm. We did eight episodes in a weekend. Oh wow. That was, uh, about two and a half years ago.
[00:43:45] Megan Senese: So the reason that I bring this up because a couple of reasons. One, it is exactly what we tell, I tell our lawyers to do with business development outreach. Right. It can really be as simple as what you just said, and I want to like scream from the rooftop said that was what your note said.
[00:44:02] 'cause I'm pretty sure that's. Like almost verbatim what I sent to you to have you join like, hi, I really like you. I want you to be on our show. Right? And things happen when you are generally. Wanting just to connect with people and learn about them, and you can, you know about them. And so I wanted to really make sure we captured that.
[00:44:23] Ashley Herd: And, and I'll say the flip side of that is for those that are still scared, again, do it, like send my message. And again, you, you may not hear from the potential client. You may not you, you may not. And that's, that's okay. Like I, you know, I have learned to thicken my skin quite a bit, but also on the flip side.
[00:44:39] As I started my business manager method doing like manager training and things, some of it was like, okay, outbound sales. It is really hard. Yeah, it is so incredibly hard. And so everything, pretty much everything that's come into the business is inbound. And it's people that saw my videos on social media, sometimes CEOs, um, head heads of HR lawyers, like sometimes, uh, one organization.
[00:45:03] I especially love a general counsel and head of hr. And they'd seen the content. And the helpful thing that's been great for me is they see, like, you know, you don't necessarily see my background straight away, but they see my, they see my approach, what, you know, from, from everything we do. And so sometimes it's that phased approach.
[00:45:19] But knowing, I mean, just like you all with, with the podcast, I love, I love listening to your episodes and it's when you're putting yourself out there in whatever way, whether that's, go make a LinkedIn post and say something and be gen, be genuine. Don't be, don't be boring. Be, be ge, be genuine, and just.
[00:45:34] Putting yourself out there. You know, I started with zero followers. I would get thrilled if I had the three likes. Yep. I started to get the hate comments. Yeah. I've gotten hate on every single type of platform, but knowing there's so many good things that outweigh that. Right. And I, I can attest to that on every level.
[00:45:51] Megan Senese: I just think it's a good reminder, particularly when people look at, now you have a LinkedIn course as well, right. I don't know if you've get asked this. People have asked this to me and I feel like it is a like. They have no idea what they're asking and they're like, do you feel like you've made it?
[00:46:04] 'cause you've got all these followers and I'm assuming people are putting that projection on you as well. I mean, I'm not saying you're not successful, but I'm like, uh, followers don't equal dollars just for the record.
[00:46:16] Ashley Herd: No, they don't. They do not. Like, I know some people that are like, pay, get paid by Instagram, make videos.
[00:46:19] I don't, I do not. And I, they make a lot from them. I don't like, I have really reframed what success looks like. I used to think success was just salary entitled Now. Paying your bills, having time for Mahjong, uh, which I don't really have. Yeah. But, but some of the, the best things as far as objectively what look best like LinkedIn learning courses.
[00:46:38] I published a book. Both of those happened because I started posting videos like it's, it's really hard to get into LinkedIn learning that you're gonna kind of have this application. But they had reached out because I posted these corny, some people may say, or these role, these role play videos. I just started posting them so they reached out.
[00:46:54] Same with my book. I was basically self-publishing and then. My publisher reached out. Um, they also published Mel Robbins Let them, so I think they had some extra money. And so they were like, who can we, who can we, like who? So let's like throw some in the air. And I, I, well, can we try? But I, yeah, but they only, they reached out because, because I was.
[00:47:15] Putting myself out there, and I, it took myself, putting myself out there so many times to get the, to get the results. But I, I do not look at analytics on social media. My, my videos, sometimes I can be like, oh, this video is probably gonna be popular. I don't tend to post trends or things like that. I am more informative than commercial about the business.
[00:47:33] All of those things. But my biggest success was when I, um, was back in Louisville a, a few years ago. My kids had just come home from summer camp. We visited my parents a little aggressively because my son had the crud from summer camp the next day that appeared. And so we spent the full day in urgent care.
[00:47:49] We were coming home in the evening and stopped at the McDonald's near their house. And we pulled around to the drive-thru and I was driving and the woman looked at me at the drive through and she goes, wait, I know you. And I was like, oh, did we, did we go to high school together? Yeah. And I was like, oh, you're like 10 years younger than me.
[00:48:03] 'cause it was right near my parents' house. And she goes, you're that HR lady from TikTok and I, we like, and it was great 'cause my, my son could hear it. My husband could like, oh great. Like, let me slip you an extra. Yeah. But you know, I, I've had meetings with senior partners. I was in the law firm world. I had all this idea of what it means to make it.
[00:48:20] But I now have this platform to put my thoughts out on there, you know, for, for better or for worse. And, and for a lot of people, they're not going to be getting training from manager method. The business, social media is what they're gonna get. And so it's my responsibility and my privilege to be able to get that audience sometime and make the most of it.
[00:48:38] And so to me, I like, I loved that more than anything. And so that's, that to me is like just having a voice and being able to put out there for lessons. That took me a lot of time to learn.
[00:48:48] Megan Senese: I know, I know we went probably a little bit over, but I know I'm so, so appreciative that you like this one. I'm always like, who are all these people where we're strangers and they say yes.
[00:48:56] I'm like, how does this keep happening to us? That we keep getting these amazing people to say yes to us? Um, so thank you for that. As we're wrapping up, what's, like, what's ahead for you or what's one thing that you want people to know?
[00:49:07] Ashley Herd: I just think really think about for yourself what success means to you.
[00:49:12] And for me, I am redefining that. Like I published my book, I got a, after I published my book, I got a message from someone that was like, Hey, um, tomorrow the USA today bestseller list comes out, like make sure to check. And it wasn't someone affiliated with my publishing house. It was somebody who I looked and I was like.
[00:49:28] Of course they had been on the USA today best, best publishing list, and I did not make this list and I have no idea what success objectively looks like. I mean, literally the conversation I was with my publishers, I'm like, what's a good like, amount of books to sell? I have I, and, and so I decided to take the approach.
[00:49:45] I realized I'm like. I've put it out there and I had, I, I didn't do a big huge book tour. I did, I did speaking events that kind of came about, but I had one book launch. It was the local bookstore near my house. I had friends, family, people from, from social media, people from LinkedIn that showed up and I'm like, this is success.
[00:50:03] Like this is real life. I live in a very virtual world of putting my face out there. I'm recording this in the office where I record all my videos. I promise. I do like to escape. To me, Megan, to your point, but really. What took me many, many years to learn is success does not have to be something somebody else defines for you or some rubric.
[00:50:22] Think about what that looks like. There are financial components to it, but there is a life component to it in any industry, including the legal environment. And so I'm constantly focusing on them, like, what does that actually mean to me? And so I just encourage those listening to really define that for yourself.
[00:50:40] Megan Senese: Yeah. Mic, mic drop. Mic drop.
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