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Join Stuart McLeod as he interviews the world's top accounting leaders to understand their story, how they operate, their goals, mission, and top advice to help you run your accounting firm.
Stuart: 00:00:05.547 [music] Hi, I'm Stuart McLeod, co-founder of Karbon. Welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast, the show where I go behind the scenes with the world's top accounting leaders. Today, I'm joined by Carla Caldwell, a longtime friend and founder of Caldwell Consulting, Coaching and Training. With over 25 years of experience in accounting and technology education, Carla is an outstanding business leader and a force to be reckoned with. She's a certified trainer, writer, adviser, for Intuit, Gusto, Xero and Karbon. She spends her spare time uplifting other women in the profession through coaching, mentoring, speaking opportunities. It's my pleasure to welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast my dear friend, Carla Caldwell. We had a nice catch up at Karbon X. We got to spend some time together and reminisce.
Carla: 00:01:02.550 Yeah. Hard to believe. We've known each other so long and got to do so much fun stuff together. So it was pretty cool seeing you. Yeah. Hadn't seen you in a bit.
Stuart: 00:01:11.626 We're talking about the road show in Hawaii. The one that I remember most, I think, given that they're kind of all blurred into one when you do 30 in a row, I think it was New York or New Jersey or something like that, wasn't it, where we set outside of the pizza shop and discuss religion and politics and swearing all at once?
Carla: 00:01:32.062 All the things. Yeah. We went through every hot topic that evening. I do remember it very well. Yes.
Stuart: 00:01:37.937 I was relatively fresh to the States at that stage or maybe that was the one-- no, I'd moved over. I think I'd moved over by then.
Carla: 00:01:45.604 Yeah, I think you were here. All transitioned well in. So you-- it's good stuff.
Stuart: 00:01:52.473 Tell me part of the origin story, Carla. I don't know where I've ever asked you. How did you end up in this illustrious industry? And were you always destined to be an accountant, do you think?
Carla: 00:02:06.609 I hope not. No, the interesting story of that, so my grandmother told me that I needed to make sure that I got a degree in school. I had to go to college. There was no option. And I had to make sure that I got a degree in something where I would always be able to have a job and support myself, which coming from your grandmother, yeah, it's good advice. And I think grandma was a little bit ahead of her time with that. She had married when she was young and all of that. So for her to say, "I want you to support yourself." And I had no idea what that was going to be. I tried out a lot of things. I had been given phenomenal advice early on to just kind of work on your electives and just kind of explore things, which I hate that we're not seeing as much of that going on in schools these days where people kind of figure stuff out. We think, at 18, you're going to know what you're going to do the rest of your life. But that's a conversation for another day. But at the same time, I was working full time and was asked to do various things in accounting and office administration just kind of while I put myself through school, and had a phenomenal gentleman that mentored me and just saw my aptitude for numbers and being able to understand financials and dig into things. And so that's kind of where it grew. Again, just had some amazing people in my life that really invested in me early on in my career and pushed me and encouraged me. And so accounting, it became. It just made sense to me. My parents are both in the medical field. I knew I didn't want anything to do with that. So I was far away as I could.
Stuart: 00:03:57.331 Was that their destiny for you, though?
Carla: 00:03:59.753 No, I am really fortunate. I did not have parents that set out my life course. They wanted me to find my way. And so I'm very thankful for that because I'm glad that I know about medicine enough that I do know, but that's not where I wanted to go. So they really just encouraged me to figure out what it is that I wanted to do, which I think is a real gift for my parents to do that. So they didn't really have any particular sway in that area. So that was good.
Stuart: 00:04:25.469 Forgive me, but my recollection is that you went to college then in Hotlanta, is that correct?
Carla: 00:04:30.859 I actually went to an even hotter place down in Florida. So I actually went to Florida State for school. So that's where I got my degree and was working full time in the Panhandle of Florida. And what I found was that-- I was working full time, going to school at night throughout my entire college education, and what I found was just a natural inclination toward techie, nerdy things. And we went through a software implementation at the company I worked at and it went pretty badly, but I realized all of my accounting knowledge and my nerdy, techie knowledge could kind of combine together as a big superpower, I guess. I have no idea. But anyway, that's kind of how I got into software and implementations of that. And so it has been a lot of fun because I understand the technical side a lot of times, and then also understand the accounting side of it as well and the processes that go with it. So it was just kind of a natural fit to do that. And so I actually graduated college, and then soon after, I quit my job and moved to Atlanta and started a consulting business doing implementations of mid-market accounting, at that time, called the AC, PAC, if you remember then.
Stuart: 00:05:47.506 Oh, back in the AC, PAC days. I see. And that was well and truly way before cloud, and I imagine there was some QuickBooks software around at that stage.
Carla: 00:05:58.307 There was QuickBooks software. I remember teaching on QuickBooks software. I don't talk about that publicly very often because back in those days, the things that we did. But I did not enjoy it at that time, quite honestly. I enjoyed getting into more mid-market software. So I did that. And then the dream I had as a child to find a job where they would pay me to talk all the time finally came to fruition when I combined all of those things together, the talking, the nerd, techy stuff, the accounting, and I actually began training on AC, PAC for [inaudible] at that time. And so I started teaching the accounting software back pre-Y2K, for those people that [inaudible] Y2K is. I am officially old. But yes, so I started teaching on AC, PAC and then eventually sold my business and went to work at Sage, as an educator in the accounting space there and teaching their software.
Stuart: 00:06:56.968 Yeah, so okay. So you sort of had an education business and you were in companies teaching AC, PAC, teaching integrations, those kinds of things. Well, I mean, integrations wouldn't have even been a thing back then, was it?
Carla: 00:07:08.203 Not really. There were a few little third-party applications that would kind of connect in and you could import, export kind of stuff, but it was not like it is today, for sure.
Stuart: 00:07:19.449 No. So Sage came calling and said that you would be a great asset to their team. How did that go?
Carla: 00:07:27.364 Well, it's funny. I actually tried to hire somebody so that I could build out more training on my own, but just circumstances in life and opportunities changed some things. And so I went to work for them here in Atlanta doing the training for them. Again, mid-market. I was single and traveling the world and walking across the Sydney harbor bridge by myself. Oh, it was awesome. I was traveling to the Caribbean and all over England and South Africa and really enjoyed just being out and about. And just really got a sense of all the various places that I got to go. I just had a ton of fun, met a lot of amazing people, learned a lot about how independent and tech forward many of the Aussies are, which I know you're proud to wear that hat yourself, so. But I really enjoyed it a lot. And just got to travel and train. And I just found that I had a-- again, I just had a knack for it, really enjoyed it and was really fortunate to be able to have those kinds of opportunities early in my career to really see the world at such a young age and be paid to do it. So it was a dream. It was great, so.
Stuart: 00:08:39.991 So traveling around the world, teaching AC, PAC and teaching-- I guess you would have expanded into some of Sage's other offerings over time.
Carla: 00:08:48.039 Yeah, pulling on my accounting knowledge and, again, my nerdy, techie skills, and then actually learned how to write Microsoft SQL code and--
Stuart: 00:08:58.951 Oh, I'm sorry about that.
Carla: 00:09:00.322 I know. It was--
Stuart: 00:09:02.022 Has your fourth normal form and you select star.
Carla: 00:09:05.305 Gosh, it was crazy. I'm not a programmer. I have such tremendous respect to those that can. That was not my gifting. But I knew enough to tell people that needed to learn it, if that was where they wanted to go. But yeah, I got into a lot of the really dimensional reporting that Sage had in their mid-market products. So really allowing people to dive into the data, developing data warehouses and slicing and dicing their data was just a ton of fun. A lot of data analytics. So yeah, I got into all of those. And one day, I was given the opportunity to get into the small business division of Sage, working with Simply Accounting up in Canada and Peachtree in the US, which is now collectively Sage 50 US and Canada. I don't know exactly why, anyway. So that was the products I got playing with, and that was a lot of fun, getting into the small business side. I really enjoyed that a lot, working with the accounting professionals. And I met the head of Sage or Simply Accounting, I guess, back then, was Jamie Sutherland, who eventually left and was the first US head of Xero. And so just kind of kept up with him a bit. And lo and behold, I ended up getting to work as the 7th employee in the US for Xero, as the director of education. So that was a pretty exciting thing to do.
Stuart: 00:10:24.586 So now we're up to 2011, I reckon, about 2010, 2011. 2012, did you start?
Carla: 00:10:33.109 About 2011, I started at-- well, yeah.
Stuart: 00:10:35.112 Yeah. So you started the same year that we came over. And I remember Jamie had all those wonderful Visa issues, didn't he? Because he's supposed to start 15 months before he actually did.
Carla: 00:10:48.715 I don't remember all of those nuances and didn't get into all of those things with Jamie as much. But I do remember flying back and forth to San Francisco quite a bit and getting to meet all of the Xero folks that came over, getting to fly down to Xero in New Zealand, and the cab driver knew what Xero was when nobody in the US knew what it was.
Stuart: 00:11:13.483 A bit of a different experience. Yes.
Carla: 00:11:15.572 You just felt like a rockstar going there, but it was a ton of fun. And I look back on that time where I was at Xero almost three years and I say to people all the time, it was like we had lightning in a bottle there for a while. It was just such an amazing experience working with a company that was incredibly innovative and willing to take a certain amount of risk. It was pretty calculated, but still just bringing people in felt very much like a startup in the US in many ways, but obviously, you had a big headquarters behind it down in New Zealand and the offices in other countries. But it was just so much fun and so exciting to be at the beginning of that cloud journey with so many professionals that saw the vision of where that was going. So that was really game changing for me to really see that and experience that. I really enjoyed that a lot.
Stuart: 00:12:08.061 Yeah. We'll come back to-- I don't mean to tangent here. I wonder, with how much the world's changed now since then-- and I mean, I agree with you, right? When we sold in in 2011, it was such a great time and such a great company to be a part of and just so many people doing good work, and everybody believed very strongly in the cause, and you're right, you could really feel that. I wonder if the way that the world's changed now, is it possible to recreate that? Was that a function of good timing, good luck, great people, and the fact that working from home wasn't such a predominant force? Do you think it's possible to recreate that again in other industries or with other people, just generally?
Carla: 00:12:56.549 I really do. And I think that I've seen glimpses of it. I've obviously not been in another sort of startup. I always think of it sort of a startup, because again, they were publicly traded by the time I was working there. But I think it is. And I think you hit on it, is that it was really about the people. It was really about the people, yes, the cause. It was this big David and Goliath story. And I think it's still going to happen as we see additional innovation coming along and we have great leaders who know how to lead their team and get them excited and understand that vision. I do think it's possible and I do think it is happening. It might be happening in smaller scale, perhaps not in as big a way as it was with the Xero versus QuickBooks kind of challenges that were there and whatnot. But the people really are pretty amazing. And I've worked at several different companies over the years, and the people that I met when I worked at Xero, who none of them are there anymore, all of them have moved on to other places, you being one of them, Ian being one of them and others, I've kept up with, because the people were really what made it so special there, so.
Stuart: 00:14:01.553 Well, we love you, for a start.
Carla: 00:14:04.095 Shucks.
Stuart: 00:14:07.377 That helps. Yeah, that's interesting. Perhaps the David and Goliath aspect was one of the sort of things in the bottle that helped it. For us, it wasn't so much QuickBooks. I mean, I know it's sort of became that or into it. But for us, it was MYB for so long because it was such a piece of shit. And that was so slow in adoption and they really-- there was a lot of subtle, yet, significant differences that I noticed coming here, and one of them that changed that didn't create the same dynamics that existed in the southern hemisphere, and one of them was that nobody hated Intuit. Still, to this day, nobody hates Intuit. Maybe there's--
Carla: 00:15:00.972 There's some grumblings. Yeah.
Stuart: 00:15:02.422 There's some grumblings, but I'm sure in their research and everything, there's certainly extremes. There's a lot of love, but there's no visceral kind of, " can not stand that company." I mean, it just-- even in the Senate committee the other day, when it turns out that FTX is using QuickBooks, I mean, but it doesn't sound like they were using it properly. But the story that-- I mean, it's silly to even say, but there wasn't as though like this sort of narrative that came out that was like, "Oh, how could you possibly?" Or anything like that. It was like, "Oh, well, good for you guys, having a try." QuickBooks is great, except not for a $20 billion exchange, right? That's a little bit silly. But in Australia, the hatred for MYB back then was visceral. They still faxed you your price increases. The accountants carrying just 15 different versions of software around to their clients. The rejection of what was possible in the industry, the rejection of the story that Rod and Hamish and others were sort of perpetuating. And I think that that was part of the lightning in the bottle. It did contribute to the success in the southern hemisphere. It didn't and doesn't exist up here as much. But it is interesting you mentioned, maybe some of the magic that was created came about from like, well, an enemy. Let's call it an enemy. I mean, good stories do have enemies or protagonists in them. And maybe there are industries now that have protagonists, like climate and carbon and [crosstalk]. With a C. Carbon with a C, yeah. That companies can sort of create that special feeling again.
Carla: 00:17:02.931 Yeah. And I don't know that the David and Goliath story-- yes, in some ways you're right, it was against Intuit in the US, to a certain extent. But it really was more about the status quo and the way we've always done it, I think, and I think Intuit was just the biggest player that had always done it that way. So that became kind of the thing. And obviously, as you talk about a product, you're going to go against the big product that's already out there. But I think it was and it still is, in many ways, the status quo of what we do and how we've done it as a profession for so long. And it was exciting to explore something new and to talk about different ways of doing things. I mean, I literally will never forget having a sign on sheet on an iPad and we would hand people a pen to sign the iPad to check in for their CPE. I mean, we're talking about a PDF on an iPad that they could sign, and it was the coolest thing. And it was so different because it was just, "Okay, we're embracing this technology and we are really going to do things differently and think differently." And it was exciting to be in the early stages of that. And I absolutely loved it. I thought it was fantastic. I was one of those that did get to work from home. So my son is now almost 16 years old. I worked from home quite a bit with him. I know, my baby. My baby is not a baby.
Stuart: 00:18:32.905 I've only met your kids maybe once or twice, but I swear to God, he was 6, not 16.
Carla: 00:18:41.781 Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, it was crazy. I started working from home early when he was a baby, even before he was born. I didn't want to be driving all the time. And anyway, I remember even as far ahead as Xero was, I remember one of the biggest conversation was, "Can Carla work from home?" And I was like, "You guys are all remote from New Zealand. Me being remote from this office is okay. We can do it." There were so many early learnings from that. So that as I later on started my own firm, we've been remote before remote was cool or required, and have continued that way. And just learning the technology and processes that you need to be successful in that, I think, has been incredibly valuable as well. But I love where our industry is going. I love that it no longer requires you to have to do taxes or audits to be successful, that we can do so much more with our clients and how we serve them. So for me, that's what's exciting, because I personally don't want to do audits or tax returns, so.
Stuart: 00:19:45.079 You don't? How come? Having just finished their audit, it's great. I didn't have to do much of the work, but there's a lot of work that goes into it. And so what have you been doing since you left Xero so about six, seven years ago now, right?
Carla: 00:20:04.434 Almost eight, actually. Actually, I think it's right at eight years now. So I actually decided when I left, that I really wanted to continue helping accounting practices with their processes and technology, because that's what I enjoyed doing, especially the technology. They just still, today, have hard time with that, but also the processes. So many accountants are incredibly smart. And so all this knowledge is in their head. So when they go to grow their team and they want to add another person, it's hard because all that knowledge is in their head. They just do the thing. So helping them document processes and implement technology to make that better in their own practice is really what I've focused on. So I was very fortunate to stay connected with you guys when I left working at Xero and you had already started Karbon. So it was really fun to work with Ian as he did some of his little round tables all around the country and I got to pop in on a few of those, and then began the road show back, I don't know what, six, seven years ago, he did road show round two, and that was a lot of fun. And just got to meet a lot of people in the industry even more than I had before. And that's actually how I was introduced to the folks at Intuit and got to meet some fantastic people there, realizing that they weren't horrible, awful people because they wore green instead of blue or whatever. And so got to work--
Stuart: 00:21:29.749 Well, some of them were both, I think, for a while.
Carla: 00:21:32.469 Yes. Yeah. Definitely, yeah. They swapped around some folks there for a while, for sure. We definitely have. And I think it still probably happens. But anyway, so we've had-- so I've got to work with them and some other partners. But in the meantime, I had continued to do accounting on the side for folks. And so began growing a team a lot more intentionally over the past few years and do a lot of accounting and bookkeeping for businesses and nonprofits. And so we now have a team of nine, launched that earlier this year officially as Candela accounting and advisory services. So just an amazing group of rockstar women, and then continuing to do consulting and training with partners, like Karbon and others, where I get to train on their applications, but then also consult with firms as they implement technology and process improvements. So that's what I've been doing.
Stuart: 00:22:23.441 This is your dream job, right?
Carla: 00:22:25.250 It really is. And I say it's a dream job, but I don't know that I would have ever dreamed it up, but I'll take it. Who would dream up an accounting jump? I don't know. But yeah. But it's a lot of fun. I get to do all the things that I enjoy. Last week, we were just at QuickBooks Connect and just getting to speak to firms and business people that just get inspired and excited and learn little tips and tricks that they can take back into their business and really change the way that they work. I think that is probably the most rewarding thing that we get to do. And so that's just a lot of fun.
Stuart: 00:23:03.305 Yeah. What do you think has-- so over that sort of the last decade, so what are the technology changes that you think have been significant and altered the industry, if any?
Carla: 00:23:15.597 The technology changes over the past 10 years. I think really just continuing to doing things, like what we're doing now, just meeting online is so much easier than it was. That's just continued to improve. I don't know that there's been a specific moment of technology, like moving to cloud accounting, that has happened in the past 10 years, where I jokingly say that Karbon is kind of the spine of our organization, it has certainly transformed us to be able to do things. So that particular application probably is a big one. Sorry, not really trying to plug it, but it just is. It's just kind of the big deal of what we do inside of our practice and has allowed us to really continue to grow and thrive as a remote team, being able to have some place to communicate and do all the things that we do. But I'd like to see us continue to embrace the technology that's already there. Accountants aren't going to be on the cutting edge, most likely, of a lot of things. But just continuing to embrace what's there, utilize it better, serve our clients more. I don't know that the technology changes are as transformative sometimes as much as it is just use it. And then learning those people skills that allow you to really connect with your clients. I think that's been the biggest thing that I see. I think sometimes accountants and people in general can just be afraid of technology. And learning to use it as a tool rather than feeling like you're being completely replaced. Use that as a tool to enhance what you're already doing for your clients. Having an online meeting hasn't replaced relationships, it's just facilitated it. So let's use that and make that happen more, and things like that. So that's what I want to--
Stuart: 00:24:52.010 Where do you see the next big change, if any?
Carla: 00:24:55.738 I am not that visionary person of technology and what's next, Stuart. I think there are various people that I know, you being one of them-- I remember telling somebody recently, I remember the first time coming out to the Embarcadero and talking with Stuart and him telling me about Karbon and me thinking, "What the heck is he even saying? I don't even understand all of this stuff." And then I kind of have to let it sink in. I come back a little while later and start playing around with it. And I'm like, "Holy crap, this is so cool." But I'm not that person that sees into the future, like you and others, which I love. I love that your strength of wonder and diving into those things is there. That's not my strength. So I love that it's yours. I think the biggest thing for me of what's next is continuing to help our accounting professionals embrace the role as coach and consultant with their clients. I really believe that's the next thing for our industry. The tools, I say it all the time, you don't hire a carpenter to build a table and then ask them what kind of hammer they're using. Most people don't go to their tax professional and ask them, "Are you using Thomson Reuters? Are you doing UltraTax? What are you using?" They don't care. They just need their tax return. So what I want to continue to emphasize to our clients is, the accounting professionals that I work with, I want them to embrace their expertise and their knowledge with their clients. And continuing to utilize whatever tools those are, whatever KPIs they use with clients, whatever reports those are that are there, but just continuing to look forward about what is that for the client and how do we help come alongside them in a better way. That's what I see next for our industry and where I would like for it to continue to grow and advance.
Stuart: 00:26:44.080 One of the challenges in the industry was sort of masked a bit by COVID perhaps, but it's always been there as long as I've sort of been involved, the acquisition and retention of talent.
Carla: 00:26:57.675 Oh, yes.
Stuart: 00:26:58.600 What's your take on sort of the talent available to the industry or the talent coming into the industry? And what are some of the things that we can do to improve our position there?
Carla: 00:27:10.850 I wish, because I'm such an optimist, I think at heart, that I could say, "Oh my goodness, it's fantastic. People are coming in. We're loving it. We're getting great people." And the people we are getting, I think, are great. But I think that things are definitely changing a lot. We are finding that it's hard to retain people. It's hard to motivate people, get them excited about things. It is a tough time for a lot of the accounting profession right now. People are not wanting to go through the long process of becoming a partner at big firms, a lot of times. They're still there. Don't get me wrong. I'm generalizing. But I do believe that, again, learning how we have a consultative conversation and relationship with our clients, I think, will actually attract more people in. But I think that continuing to explore options, like outsourcing, I think, is going to continue to grow and be something that we see happening more and more. We see it all the time. It is a constant conversation in every forum that I'm involved in, how do we get more people. And if they're not in the US, moving offshore to do that, I think, is definitely going to be there. For our current talent, the folks that we have on our own teams today, just continuing to value them and encourage them. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think, "Well, you're salaried, so therefore, I can work you 80 hours a week and you should just be happy to have a job." I mean, those days, if they're not long gone, they are on their way out, for sure. And I think that changes things as well. And looking for ways to enhance our experience at work, I think, is really an important one to explore for a lot of firms.
Carla: 00:28:55.593 And really getting rid of that hierarchy that we've had there for a long time and really looking at that-- I hate calling it work life balance, but whatever that is called, being able to have time to turn things off and time to focus on family and time to focus at work, but really focus when you're there, I think, is really something that we need to have many more conversations about as an industry.
Stuart: 00:29:18.519 What are you seeing in terms of employee engagement? The people that you work with and the way that they consult with your clients. What is it about the purpose that you can provide that helps those employees sort of engage with the client based, do you think?
Carla: 00:29:38.374 Well, I do think we have to have a lot more conversations that are not transactional. So not just, "How are you doing in your job? Are your tasks done? What's the status of things?" But more about relaying the excitement over the great note you received from a client or the conversation you have with a client about a team member and the feedback that they get, helping them see the vision of where you're going and getting their feedback and involving them in more of that strategic conversation at times. And it is definitely important for them to understand more of it, of the strategy, of the processes and so on, I think, is definitely more needed than it ever has been before. And I think that does keep them engaged. But I think collectively, we are seeing a definite need for us to address some mental health questions in our society. We have a lot of people that are just flat burn out. And there's only so much motivation you can give people. We do have to figure out how to continually engage with our team. And it's a lot more what I call squishy conversations. We're chatting about families and chatting about how are you feeling and doing, and sometimes that feels a little odd for some of our leaders. Some guys are better at it than others. I think, as women, sometimes we tend to go toward those topics a little bit easier sometimes. But I think it has to be something overall that we are having those conversations and it's not just relegated to that one-time check in. I think it is something that we're seeing a bit more of. We do get togethers with my remote team where we're just hanging out sometimes. We're not even talking about work. And I also find that sometimes when we're just hanging out not talking about work, that it pops up and we kind of flow in and out of those conversations pretty easily. But there's a lot more conversation about what's going on in our team members' lives than there ever has been before, for sure.
Stuart: 00:31:29.627 And it's different for every firm, right? This is pretty new ground, really. I get the necessity. I get why we do it. I mean, as you say, work life balance is kind of not the right term for it anymore. We are our work and our work is our life. But our life needs more-- perhaps a lot of us are looking for more purpose and more capacity in our lives to do good, I think. I hope. I think that's true. And we spend so much time at work where it is-- therefore, to conflate the two is unavoidable, which is why these types of conversations come out. And I mean, I think it's a good thing, but there are still areas where the employee, employer relationship makes that sometimes-- it makes those conversations, well, A, illegal, but B, difficult. I mean, it's a hard area to navigate well.
Carla: 00:32:30.397 It is. And I think just stepping into those conversations and being willing to have them and do them in a tactful way, right place, right time, and within boundaries, right? And I think being honest about that, with having the conversation where, "Hey, I want to have this conversation. Are you okay with it? Where do we go with that? This is the areas that we can be in." And again, as accounting professionals, that's probably not our strength all the time. And so learning to lean into that human side of the work that we do more even so than the technical side. With the automation that we're seeing, with the technology that's allowing us to get more done at work, that doesn't necessarily mean that we need to always get more work. Maybe it just needs to be more profitable. And then have the time for those conversations and for that human connection, I think, is pretty powerful. One of the things that I've really gotten into over the past year or so has been a assessment called The Working Genius. And one of the things that we have found with that is it is all about the type of work we do and the genius that we bring. And like I said, for somebody like you, having known you for a little while, you have definitely a wonder about you. Why can't we do such and such? And just coming up with crazy ideas that sometimes are just completely off the wall. And then having somebody that can kind of sift through some of those ideas and say, "Okay, I think this will work." And then you rally the team, help make a plan, and then execute on it. And really, it goes through this entire all the stages of work that we have. One of the things that our team did, as we were looking at the human side of what we do, who we are, and how we show up at work, is talking about that genius that we bring. And each of us brings something to the table. We have natural gifts and abilities.
Carla: 00:34:24.958 And if I didn't appreciate your ability to wonder, then we wouldn't have things like Karbon and other things that you do to push the envelope, which is fantastic because I do not have that ability. But yet, I might have the ability to sift through some ideas and get people excited about what you've created. And so learning how to bring that genius to the table, I think, is also another way that we've been able to help engage with our team and get them excited about what they do. And then also to really speak a language where it's like, "That's awesome, Stuart, that you wonder, but right now, we're trying to get crap done. So we're going to pause your wonder and we're going to move to execution." But then it still helps you feel like you're appreciated, but yet, we're channeling it in the right direction. And I think that has been a really big piece for our team in employee engagement, is learning about that and having a language that allowed us to validate what everybody brings to the table, but then also identify what we need right now, and us being able to show up in that way, I think, has been pretty powerful too.
Stuart: 00:35:27.453 Well, that's fascinating because the working genius-- I'm cheating here and just looked it up quickly. But was written by Patrick Lencioni, right? And who also wrote the-- I'm sure he did, didn't he? Let me see.
Carla: 00:35:44.383 The five dysfunctions of a team?
Stuart: 00:35:45.793 The five dysfunctions of a team.
Carla: 00:35:47.813 Yes, he did. Among other books, yes.
Stuart: 00:35:51.309 Among others, which was-- I won't mention the company. And it wasn't Xero. But it was around that time that I brought that book to the table and we implemented a lot of the strategies to try and just break down the dysfunctions of that team that were occurring. And so his stuff is very digestible and I'm sure brings a lot of good functional and good format to work with amongst your team, right?
Carla: 00:36:20.879 It is. It really has been. And he actually wrote a book I recommended all the time called The Ideal Team Player. And all of his books are kind of written like a fable. That particular book really goes through finding people that are hungry, humble, and smart. Smart, not being intellect, but being more people smart. And Warren Buffett actually uses those same criteria as he's hiring. And as do many others, but it really is very helpful. More often than not, when we're talking with accountants, the conversation is less about, "How do I do a tax return? How do I do the accounting?" And more about, "How do I manage my team?" And so the more tools that we have available to us to make that process better-- I don't know if easier is the right word, but better.
Stuart: 00:37:03.250 And more accessible, perhaps.
Carla: 00:37:05.239 Definitely. Definitely.
Stuart: 00:37:07.726 Because his stuff is not written in the form of a Buddha or anything like that.
Carla: 00:37:12.063 Yeah, he is definitely-- this book is very engaging, super easy to read, and pretty good on Audible as well. I've gone through it on Audible myself. But yeah, the assessment is really cool. And being able to identify where your team is as far as, if you take a team of 10 people and you find out that you have nobody on the team that does wonder, then we might be stuck in some things or we might need to bring somebody in when we're trying to figure out new stuff. So it really does help to let you see where you might be lacking some of that and where you might want to grow in an area or how you might want to show up at a meeting and things like that. So it's been a really powerful tool. We've seen it used with a lot of different clients and firms, and our own firm has really benefited a lot from it as well.
Stuart: 00:37:54.385 One question I love to ask our podcast guests. Tell me about a client or perhaps a number of clients, if you want to sort of merge them into one, if you'd like, for the sake of the story, but somebody that you've worked with over the years that just brings out that passion in you, that you just connect with on a level that brings you a great deal of satisfaction.
Carla: 00:38:19.677 Well, I can think of one in particular, and he is a serial entrepreneur, just loves starting businesses and doing innovative things, comes up with crazy ideas that I just think, "I don't know where these things come from." But he does every other day, I feel like. I was on a call with him recently, and he muted the Zoom call. And I was like, "I needed that right now. You're saying something I need to know." And he just started laughing. And he goes, "I'll tell you later." And puts me back on mute. But just the passion and excitement that they have in their own business. And one of the things that happened with this particular company-- they have multiple entities and we dive in and get into all of those. But what we've started learning is that when we explain things in a way that allows them to continue to do the things that they're really good at. What is their genius and what do they get to do and how do they thrive? And we can come alongside them and say, "No, you're not allowed to do that. That's illegal or that's not okay to do. But if you do it this way, then that's going to work. And this is what it's going to do for you." We've been able to build a lot of trust with them and now they bring us more into those conversations much earlier. We're able to sit down and brainstorm with them and come up with ideas. And sometimes, just like I did with you, I really don't understand everything that they're planning and doing. But when we're able to dive in and get into some of the details with them and say, "Okay, this is what I understand. This is how we'll make that happen and these are your guardrails." That, to me, that's just phenomenal to do. So I think that's pretty exciting when we get to do that. And we're really fortunate that we have several larger clients that we get to work with in that way, where it might be a no, but let's try it this way or let's do it this way. We found success like this. And it really allows them to continue on growing, dreaming, doing, but kind of keeps some boundaries in place.
Stuart: 00:40:16.518 Keeps the out of jail.
Carla: 00:40:17.999 Yeah, yeah. I can't guarantee that, but. I think I've had that conversation with you before, that I can't guarantee [inaudible], but anyway. But, for sure, just putting in some guardrails, I think, helps a little bit. And being able to come up with how they can make stuff happen and continue to thrive, I think, that's really the fun part of what we get to do every day.
Stuart: 00:40:39.642 Yeah. Carla, it's been so wonderful catching up with you. I miss you terribly.
Carla: 00:40:46.654 I know, right? We've got to get together again sometime.
Stuart: 00:40:49.583 I'd love that if you were-- although, I think you're going to get a-- I shouldn't do this on a podcast, but I think you're getting some weather, aren't you? But there's plenty of snow up here if you need to get out of Hotlanta.
Carla: 00:41:00.457 Yeah, well, yeah. I'm not really much of the cold person, although, I think I'm going to get a bit of that over the holidays. But yeah, I'll think about it.
Stuart: 00:41:10.465 I'll come down there to get out of the--
Carla: 00:41:12.853 Okay, that'd be good. Yeah, come down here to thaw out when you needed. So that'll be great. That'll be great. Thanks for having me, Stuart. It's been fun to chat with you and connect again, so.
Stuart: 00:41:22.751 Likewise, likewise, Carla. You have a wonderful, wonderful day.
Stuart: 00:41:31.988 [music] Thanks for listening to this episode. If you found this discussion interesting, fun, you'll find lots more to help you run a successful accounting firm at Karbon Magazine. There are more than 1,000 free resources there, including guides, articles, templates, webinars, and more. Just head to karbonhq.com/resources. I'd also love it if you could leave us a five star review wherever you listen to this podcast. Let us know you like this session. We'll be able to keep bringing you more guests for you to learn from and get inspired by. Thanks for joining and see you on the next episode of the Accounting Leaders Podcast. [music]