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Transforming the Game with Kristina Katsanevas is the podcast for game-changers, risk-takers, and industry shakers. Don’t hate the player—hate the game? Not here. These leaders are rewriting the rules. From high-net-worth entrepreneurs, founders of Australia’s most iconic brands, and those disciplined enough to keep stacking those habits to success. We dive into the minds of pioneers innovating in media, business, fashion, sport and transformation.
Want to know how to break the mold and redefine success in your career, business, and life?
Tune in and start transforming the game.
Kristina Katsanevas (00:00)
Katie Kay, you are one phenomenal woman. More, more, more people need to know how you are scaling businesses, buying businesses, exiting businesses. I was definitely around business in my childhood. I did get to see a lot of business and see different deals going on. I've been surrounded by that a lot in my life. When I turned 19 is actually when my family cut the credit card up, took the car keys and fully kicked me out. And so 19 was when I started.
was bartending, I was in university. The risk I take then, I don't take now. Sometimes I'm so envious of that woman. Like I'm so envious. I was literally awake till 3 a.m. I don't even think I washed my makeup off because I wanted to get the cash I needed to open the first location, which I did. I was taking everything I was earning and rerolling it. Take the cash, reroll, take the cash, reroll. Why? Because this market was starting to boom and boom fast. And I am just Katie.
There was not nice people when I'm going to hedge funds for hundreds of millions of dollars. Like we're on Zoom, it's a pandemic, but it's still a boys club. Everybody can do this. If you learn the skills, you can 100 % do this.
Kristina (01:07)
Katie Kay hello and welcome to Transforming the Game. What an honor.
Katie (01:12)
How are you? So good to see you.
Kristina (01:15)
It's so good to see you looking amazing. Those locks, I tell you, envy all the time.
Katie (01:21)
Thank you. Shout out to osix Hair, sponsored by osix Hair.
Kristina (01:26)
So you have from the moment I have seen you online and in person, you are one phenomenal woman. And I thought I must have you on my podcast because more and more more people need to know what you're about, what you're doing and whatever your secret source is to how you are scaling businesses, buying businesses, exiting businesses. The big buzzword around a lot of the entrepreneurs is this roll up and exits, but you've kind of been doing it since your teens.
So if we take a few steps back and let's go for a walk and what it was like for a little Katie Kay back in the day.
Katie (02:05)
Little Katie Kay, rebellious, crazy, not the Katie now. Yeah, I think my childhood, I was definitely around business in my childhood. So I did get to see a lot of business and see different deals going on. I've been surrounded by that a lot of my life. I don't usually go into it because of people's immediate responses. well, that's where she must've got the money to start and that must be why she's so like.
intelligent and like all these things. And it's actually to the contrary of that. So while I do come from a family, you know, that does deals that is in private equity that does all these types of things. When I turned 19 is actually when my family cut the credit card up took the car keys and fully kicked me out. And I was like, wait, what? Money doesn't grow on trees. Who's paying my credit card? So I was like, Oh, and you know, a part of that is
when I was in it, I was like, these are the worst parents ever. Like who just kicks their kid out? Like, you know, this, I'm not used to this. I have to do my own laundry now. And so I started to get like very remunctious about this. Now, had that not happened to me and you know, being on the other side of it, I would not be the woman I am now. Would not be the woman I am now. Did not give them credit for it till about 10 years ago.
But you know, I think that that is life. And I think the way you go through things is how you become either the entrepreneur or the career person that you are. And so for me, you know, I knew I wanted the lifestyle that I lived and I was grown up in. knew that, you know, I think my family also knew I was different to siblings and cousins and knew that the only way to motivate me is to piss me off.
And that's where the rambunctious side kind of comes from. So, you know, I do look back at it now and I'm like, that was supposed to happen. And so that's 19 was when I started, I was bartending, I was in university. What I wanted to be was a child psychologist, and I wanted to open Montessori schools.
which I still might do one day. I did end up finishing my degree, but I did it all online after my first year.
So when I started my business, which was the vape and CBD business. and like what I always tell everybody, and you've definitely heard me do my speech where
I explained starting a company from scratch and then buying companies, right? Both led to an exit, both led to success. But when I started, it was literally a farmer's booth market. Like it was just this little stand with this little Bristol board and you know, my tablecloth in the middle of a farmer's market. So they're selling corn on one side and I'm selling my vapes over here. And that's how I started.
Kristina (04:44)
Why, like, where did vapes come, like, out of anything?
Katie (04:48)
out of anything. So I was working actually at one of my family's businesses. owned a flea market at one of the many things. And they were renting out basically consignment. You can rent out like these front cabinets. Okay. So some people come in, they'd sell jewelry. Some people will be selling like antiques in their booths and whatever. so that was when I had come home that summer. I was like, well, can I at least work there? I call bartend still, but can I at least like work there?
That was their one grace. move back in, but I could work there. Perfect.
Kristina (05:20)
Was it deliberate? you think of your parents? was it okay, was it, do you think it was deliberate for them to go, Katie's got what it's in her, but we need to, we need to like kick something out of it? Or do you think they were just being, they knew what they were doing?
Katie (05:35)
In the moment, I was like, you guys are the devils. Like, this is so mean. I think it was my mom, it was my dad. Like, he knew, like, the same things in me were in him, and he was like, the only way to get the bear to come out is to poke it. And I was like, okay, you're going give me the shittiest job, like, of all the jobs you could give me. I got a sister that's working in Fortune 500 for you, but I'll sit over here, that's fine, in the flea market.
Kristina (05:38)
I knew it.
Katie (06:00)
Anyways, leading to that, there was a woman in there who was selling vapes. And she had a spot in our little cabinet that she rented for like $45 a month, something stupid. And we would take commission of her sales. She also had the booth, like 30 minutes way at a different city where she was selling it on the weekends. And she came in and this lady's like making 3000 a month out of this little booth selling vapes. again, I'm like, it's in an antique market. Like, this is crazy.
So it's way pre-vaping. Like this is like when the rumblings are just coming out. Like this isn't like vaping is a thing yet, right? And so she turned to me one day and she said, you know, I'd actually like to get rid of it. Like, is that something you would talk to your family about? Like would they be interested in taking that off my hands? And I said, well, that's something I'm interested in talking to you about. And so a portion of my bartending money and a portion of my student loans actually paid to
purchase that off of her.
Kristina (06:56)
Right there, it's already in your DNA, isn't it? So you've gone and taken a little bit of risk, you put a little bit of capital in, you've taken money out of your wages, you're like, I'll have to sub-sign out of your loan. And let's go.
Katie (07:09)
do this while I'm making my minimum wage and checking people out. perfect. I'll buy that off you. And she's like, I'll throw in the flea market, right? So you also still have to pay those people rent, the farmers market, and then there's where we are. Like, no problem. I'd love to take that off your hands. So glad I was working today and my family was not working today. And so I did call my dad and I said, you know, would you care if I did this?
Of course, I am the rebel child that's starting the smoking business. That is a bad image. I'm like, well, I've done worse. So like, you know, I could have started any type of business and I could just do this. And he's like, sure. Like at this point, he's like, hands off with me. Sure. So I get into that and I started that business. And the way I looked at it was I was already selling it for her. was me making the 3000 a month. So like I've already cracked.
Kristina (07:36)
to my business.
Katie (08:00)
pitch or, you know, where we're going with this and like, we're going into all these things. And so again, I had taken that over. And at this point, I've like left that was just like my summer job. So I had left and gone to like back to the city where the the farmers market was. And so I the only thing I'm running is the farmers market. And I'm bartending, it's a big college town. So I'm bartending in that city.
So I'm going back and forth, which is great because it's like I'm bartending and I'm like, hey, you should stop smoking and you should come over here. And like, so I'm like funneling people from the nightclub to come buy vapes at the farmer's market. It's a whole thing. And you look back at it. Like, what was I doing?
Kristina (08:39)
You found your target market, you were already in it and you're like, will build my empire because my target market is smoking. I know back in the day I bartended and I came home wreaking of the cigarettes back then as well when you could smoke in the bars
Katie (08:52)
So then, you know, my whole goal was to open my first store, right? And I was, and I, and again, if you want to go back to the family part of it, I think it was, I just wanted my dad to take it seriously. So I was like, I need to have an actual physical, physical location. And so then I was like, okay, well, what else could I do? And in the, in this market of my family's, we also bought and sold gold there.
So I know how to like weigh gold, test gold, like do all those things. We've always been into like lots of jewelry and like fine art, whatever. So I like, know how to look at things, appraise them and pay for them. So I'm like, okay, well, farmers, they have a lot of gold. They just sit on gold. They're farmers. So was like, second Bristol board, buying and selling gold. So now I have vapes on one side, I'm buying and selling gold on this side and I'm still bartending till three in the morning.
So this was my whole machine that I had going. when people they're not willing to do what it takes. I literally think back that. And I'm like, guys, I was literally awake till 3am. I don't even think I washed my makeup off. I'm at the farmer's booth by six. it was rinse and repeat was just a system because I wanted to get the cash I needed to open the first location. And
Which I did. I ended up getting that. And then eventually I, you know, I put someone in the market. So I wasn't in the market anymore. I didn't actually quit the bartending job for a while because that was funneling people. So I was like, this is marketing. Like I'm getting paid to market my product. I'm just going to keep this going. so I would still like take shifts and, you know, how it goes with serving, like you work your way up so I could have a Friday and the Saturday. And I was like, that's fine. I make good money on the weekend.
And I up opening my first location and then it was just rapid fire. So we built that up. We had multiple locations. I'm originally from the UK. So I actually, I am. Yes.
Kristina (10:39)
Did not know that.
Katie (10:40)
Yes, I was born in the UK. At this point, my parents have fully moved back to the UK. I have no family here other than my sister. So we went back to the UK. We had expanded over there, had stores here. And what I was starting to learn was, one, I was taking everything I was earning and rerolling it. So it was just like, take the cash, reroll, take the cash, reroll. Why? Because this market was starting to boom and boom fast. And I am just Katie.
I'm like 20 year old Katie who cannot compete with the private equities that are getting in the space, the hedge funds that are getting in the space, the the wealthy dude that got sold on this at a bar from some guy who opens up 12 locations in a day. So as much as I'm rolling my cash and I'm becoming very successful at it, I can't go fast enough. And that's where I was like, you'll hear me say this a lot. I looked at my store and I was like ecosystem.
You got to remember at the time, like I'm in Canada. that's where I was living and in Canada, we were legalizing cannabis as well. So this is a kind of important part to the story. prior to legalizing cannabis, we could sell CBD. So I was like, okay, immediately add CBD into my company as a product to be selling. And that profit margin wise kind of flew like crazy for us. So that works very well. And then I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, well, what else could I do that, you know,
I could beat the competition without having to keep opening these locations. And I got really good at it. Like in a weekend, I could have an entire build out done, could open a location. That wasn't the issue. I had really cookie cutter the system, which I tell a lot of people, you need to get the recipe perfect and then we can scale. But if we don't have the recipe absolutely perfect, you can't open locations on a weekend or scale super fast, right? Cause then you're have links in the chain.
Kristina (12:17)
Yep.
And the main thing in your cookie cutter, would you say for people who think about scaling would be people, systems? What else would they need to?
Katie (12:37)
systems, your marketing, your branding. Like for me, it was like the actual fit out of the location. So I was a big, you you think about vaping and you think immediately, you know, I wish people could have walked in my store. So you think about, you know,
Kristina (12:50)
The picture in my head of what I think it would be like.
Katie (12:53)
guys with spacers, tattoos, like you're walking into like a head shop, right? Like you feel like it's going be super sketchy and there's going be graffiti on the wall and all these things. And again, you gotta remember I'm just Katie who's trying to impress my dad, right? And I come from suits and so suits don't want to walk into a head shop, right? And I was like, well, there's a market there because every other vape shop is going to look like that because the only people who are going open this type of business until later on in life when the big boys did come in.
is going to be someone who is using the product, who is that type of kind of demographic, right? And so I said, no, I want a guy in a suit to be able to walk into my location. So it was very like clean, Ikea cabinets, we had iPads, we kind of did all the things that the cannabis stores do now. Like you walk in, it feels like kind of like a medical lab. Like it's not, we're walking in and there's graffiti, right? So that whole kind of brand was something I was very, very strong.
about. And then yeah, that your systems and how you you're selling a product that you need, it needs to be explained. You're selling a product that needs to be at the time you could have a test bar, you need to do that experience with them. Their first time using a vape versus smoking is very different. And in order to get you're always going to get the young clients because it's like cool. And you know, that's that's a whole different demographic. They're smoking, they want to be fine. Keep them over there.
But I also want to be able to help like the sixty year old who has not been able to quit smoking, right? 60.
Kristina (14:20)
You just say six year old.
I'm
like, what is going on in Canada?
Katie (14:27)
no no no no 60 so that I was like you got to be able to explain those things to them and and so I was very strong on like SOPs of like taking time with people being very patient with people and again like it's a very big thing now and research has come out now but back then there was no research there was nothing to like explain YouTube you know how do you use a vape like those things didn't exist right so I want everyone to make sure they felt comfortable
So we had a lot of like processes and things like that in there.
Kristina (14:56)
You doubled down on the experiences that no one else was doing to differentiate you.
Katie (15:02)
Yeah, yeah, because I really did dominate the market at the time. And you'll hear me say, don't know how many times just as just I know I'm good at business and I don't want to discredit my success because I get screamed at for that because I'm always discrediting it. But I also know I got very lucky. The reason it wasn't that it was was the timing in which I got into the industry. So
Kristina (15:26)
commonly
said, though, amongst a lot of even billionaires and everything where they've really done well. they say, it's because it's because you're smart and you were already sussing out the ecosystem, you were already cookie cutting, you were already focusing on the systems and the branding, maybe the branding subconsciously for you comes in from the psychology training you had where you really understand the psychology of people and what makes them move.
So you've done all of that. But then when you hear people talk who have made it big, like, mean, in three, four years, you will go through that where you're selling out for millions. But it is luck as well. a lot of people do say that. you're smart that you got into an industry where you took a risk because it wasn't. so it's luck, it's risk taking, I think, always. Because when people say it's luck, it's because it's not obvious that
it's going boom or it's going give you the success you had. But you've taken that risk, you've persevered and then people go, you were lucky. actually, I worked my ass off for five years and some thing that was a bit unknown.
Katie (16:30)
And your head doesn't come up for those five years. So yeah, you can't take away the work ethic and you can't take away like the skill, I guess. And you know, there was things that weren't perfect. My third one completely failed and almost took the whole thing down for me because I'm an idiot and didn't turn right and drive the block. And that's a whole long story. But like within again, 48 hours, I had that entire location, shipped, found a new location and sublet that lease out. And another thing I actually do say with this
the success of it is the risk I take then I don't take now. And sometimes I'm so envious of that woman. Like I'm so envious because I sit there and I think she didn't give a shit. And the reason she didn't give a shit was she was 19 years old. I'm signing five year commercial leases, $150,000 lease times multiple locations, right? And I'm like, I'm on the hook for everything. But I'm thinking, what's the worst case? I just bankrupt myself.
Five years is going go by, I have to restart. I'm still like, what, 25? So like in my brain, I'm not even processing risk. And I think there's a part of that, I did say this to my father before he passed away, that there's a part of that that came from him because I was so angry. And like when I'm angry, it's like just the bull is just going go. so there are, like there are pieces to it where like it's sacrifice.
but at the same time there's luck and timing that came into it. Where strategy comes in with this business again was, okay, I can't beat my competition. I don't have like lines of credit on demand at this point, right? And I thought, okay, I'm going actually make the vaping liquid for two reasons. In this industry, there wasn't a law yet. So we didn't actually have juice that was being properly tested. You see all those bad things about vaping, about Diciatio, the chemical.
people getting popcorn long. That was all happening because people were cheaping out on the product so that they can make more of a profit. Now, obviously, government of Canada has laws in place. Everything I ended up doing and think like the reason I kind of sold was for this reason. There's two components. There's vegetable glycerin and propane glycol. They go together to create vapor. Nicotine obviously is bad for you. I do not condone nicotine. I'm obviously aware that nicotine is addictive.
But what people would do is take non-medical grade VG and non-medical grade PG and they'd put them together and that would cause the chemical reaction. And that was cheaper. So I said, number one, quality. So if I actually go and make this juice and quality wise fix the problem, well, when the testing comes out, my juice will not get pulled off the shelf. So I was like, okay, that's problem number one. And then number two, I was like, I can sit in my office and call a hundred people a day, call every gas station.
call every any type of store. mean, there was there was little boutiques and little fishing towns that sold clothing that were selling vapes and profiting $10,000 a month. Like, because again, it was the time they hadn't expanded yet. Right. So I would just dial for dollars all day long. And so then massive wholesale company, which is now selling the product. And that was the pivot. That was number one. The reason I sold that was
two, the smartest thing I could have done, and three, quality-wise, it's still there. It didn't get pulled from Health Canada. It's still approved. It's still sitting on shelves. So you look back at it, and it's like, again, yeah, is that a risk? And I invested my own cash into that and didn't know how that was going play out. But that was the thing that took me from here to there.
Kristina (20:14)
So if we are honing in on that for people right there is that your smartest thing you did going from markets to millions really was you could see that where you couldn't beat the competition, i.e. you had the private equity. So you were smart enough to go, I can't go toe for toe with their pockets like right now. And you're like, so how do I pivot? You created your own IP and then
Tell people what you did when you exited, which I think is actually your genius part of everything you've done in life because from that part when you exited, how you negotiated your exit.
Katie (20:54)
the deal. Yes, yes, yes, the deal. I'm like, well, then I was lost, which we'll get there.
Kristina (20:58)
Let's negotiate the deal and then we work out. my god
Katie (21:02)
no, so I was sitting there at the deal was about to get closed We were selling off on that and I thought to myself I was like, okay, well You know, I feel like I'm leaving something on this. I was getting very Again, would I make this choice now? Probably not and this is where I envy that version of Katie but I'm sitting there and I'm like hang on I created this they still need me and I can keep sitting here and the price can keep going up and up and up and up and eventually
they're going to walk away. Right. So it's not so much about price now. I'm very happy with the millions of cash that I'm getting now. I'm not worried about that. But now I'm thinking longevity. Right. And I won't say the deal because it will kind of disclose my family. But there was a deal I witnessed when I was younger and I remember my dad doing something similar to this. And I was like, you're crazy. Like, you're crazy. And I remember like
Mom yelling, I remember my uncle's yelling. I remember a lot of people being like, you're crazy, you're going blow this whole thing up, you're going screw it all up for us. And for some reason, like that hit me in the head. And I was like, I built this, this is my IP, as you said, right? Like this is mine, these are my recipes. And I know how much profit margin is in a bottle of juice. For example, those bottles of juice cost anywhere from three to $4 to make, and they get sold for $20. So I know the margin is there. And I was like, I said,
I'm going go back in and I'm going say I want a dollar on every single bottle sold for the rest of my life. And I remember my sister was with me and we're sitting there and she was like, you are batshit crazy. Like you should just be happy. You should just walk away. And I'm like, I'm like.
Kristina (22:42)
is
what most do. just think of the big number now.
Katie (22:46)
by the way, the reason I was getting acquired, I had the database. So again, something really important for entrepreneurs to learn is sometimes your database is one of the most valuable things you can sell. Yes, of course the company is making me and of course like all those things were valuable parts of the company. But the reason they wanted me was hello, cannabis was getting approved in Canada for recreational purposes, not even medical recreational, which means now they're on every single corner. And I have the database of
who's going to go buy that product. That's why they wanted me. Cause as much as they make millions in the vape side of things, they're going to make tenfold that in the cannabis industry, which was by the way, what I was trying to do. And I never got my, it was like a lottery, whether you got the license or not. And I had never gotten it, but then, okay, I eventually now I have to bow out, right? I have to bow out gracefully. And, and I did, but like you said, like, was like, no, I'm going back and this is what I'm asking for. And it wasn't even a hesitation. were like, yep, she can have it.
Done. Now for the rest of my life, like done. So yeah, it's, it's when the deal's over, it's definitely not over good or bad. That was a good one, but there's been one that didn't work out that way.
Kristina (23:48)
that.
Yeah, that's that is true. So this was a good one. I still think it was brilliant on your behalf to work out your royalties because that set you up to have ongoing income to help you live your life and do what you want. then what did you go from there? You've been building this thing since you're 19 kicked out of home from a farmer's market. you're now what
Still a baby.
Katie (24:20)
I'm just about to turn, yeah, 24, about to turn 25.
Kristina (24:25)
At 25, I was, I'd moved over to the UK for a year and had the best year of my life.
Katie (24:31)
guys. Yeah, so that is actually that is where I said it was my Betty Crocker moment. I was like, I'm just going stay home and this is it's a and I'm going you know, do the house thing and like, you know, buy a new rug and change a lampshade and like, I don't know what the hell am I supposed to do. It lasted about two months and I started going stir crazy. And it's actually when JT Foxx came into my life is when I met JT.
So I obviously at that point was able to get coached by him and meet him. And the problem was I had taken that money. I didn't know what to do with it, right? You need to have a plan when you exit a company. I started dumping a lot of my money into real estate. was like, well, that can be a wealth play. That's fine. obviously I have education at this point. I kind of know what I'm doing, but I don't really know what I'm doing. This is the importance of having a coach.
that I cannot emphasize enough, because if you look at what I did then and then what I did now, it's completely different. And so I started kind of doing those things and going to events and seeing people. And again, I'm like, I'm moving the money. And my brain went what it did in the vape stores, which was ecosystem. And it was like, there's construction crews on my site. Why wouldn't I buy the construction company?
Kristina (25:46)
You say that so casually, Katie, but
Katie (25:49)
That's how it happened.
Kristina (25:50)
Most people who are renovating and doing stuff, they don't look at the guys on their construction site and say, I might buy you. So from there, I'm going to go with you didn't have much experience in the construction industry.
Katie (26:04)
I kind of do. Not crazy, but definitely building. did. What I did start doing once I sold and I really started to look at like, okay, well, what is private equity and what are these things and what is a multiple? Because those conversations were happening with my lawyers and selling and all these things. And so I started really kind of looking into those things and being curious about them. And I kept coming back to construction.
And there is good construction and bad construction. And so I started, you know, I didn't know that in beginning. There's definitely a company I'm still stuck with, you know, and I could sell it, but it's just.
Kristina (26:38)
What would be, what's something about good construction and bad construction?
Katie (26:42)
things
like heavy equipment, it's still a company that will sell. But anything with heavy equipment, while it's a cash, it can be a cash cow. It's also when someone wants to go acquire you, it's got a very high capex. So it's got this, you know, kind of nut and bolt, no pun intended that comes with it. And so it's not a nice clean construction.
you know, landscaping, recurring revenue, like this beautiful bow that now a private equity wants. And it's important to know what private equity wants now is different to what they wanted back when I was starting to look at these things, because construction is now this big taboo topic. It's this big thing. I can tell you not one person was interested in my construction companies for five years until I sold them. Not one person gave a shit. They're like, cool. Like they didn't want to talk about it. They didn't want to know my revenue. They didn't want to know my EBITDA.
They didn't understand any of it till they themselves were like, this is the gold rush as they should. Like this is the time to be in that type of area. But literally nobody gave a shit at all about it until it was like, I sold my company. Well, how much did you sell it for? Which we'll get there. And I bawled my eyes out in front of everybody.
So like, it's interesting because what they're looking for now is not what they're looking for back then. You could easily sell, you know, heavy contract construction, stuff like that. You could easily sell it a lot better.
Kristina (27:59)
then yeah, times have changed. And when you were acquiring, when you've gone, I'm going to buy a construction company. And of course, you instantly your brain expands and goes ecosystems. I've seen once you wrote or maybe I've heard you speak,
It would have been one where you said they kind of were you had you you had your eye on the target. Love it. You had your eye on the ball of where you wanted to go and you were getting shut out a bit because of whatever reasons. You're a woman in construction, which was rare, rarer back then than it is now. It's still very rare. people are just funny about selling their businesses or even talking to certain people.
But you said you strategically took each person one by one because you had eye'd off their business, their business, that you took them one by one. And then what did you do?
Katie (28:44)
So it was, again, yes, you're right. It's trades, they don't like me. It's also important to note the first company I bought was doing 500,000 revenue. Cause a lot of people hear, she was doing $40 million a year. And I want to put this into perspective because everybody can do this. If you learn the skills, you can 100 % do this and build this up. I'm obviously, I am the minnow in the construction pond.
but I'm sitting at the table with them. And so, when you go into any type of big project, right? You don't want to buy a general contracting company, because that's like buying a doctor's office. The GC has to stay with the company, so they don't sell well. But all of us, the trades are sitting at project meetings and we're all sitting around the table about, this is the project we have coming up. is the plumbing's doing this, electrical's doing that.
painting's doing this, like everybody's discussing the project, the timeline and how things are going flow, who the site is, yada, yada, yada. And so I'm sitting at those meetings. And of course, again, my brain ecosystem is going, well, like, why wouldn't we all just come together and we would be worth more money and then we'll just sell Like, I'm like, that just makes sense to me. And they didn't want to give me the time of day. They just didn't want to talk to me. They're a boys club. They go to the same bar every single week. It's like,
You're not getting in that door. They're way older. They're like all 60 plus years old. So of course it's even worse. Like, you know, it's not all of them. Like sometimes the son is sitting at the meeting or whatever. Like they just, they don't. So I'm like, okay. But individually, I'd see them in the hallway and they joke with me and they talk to me and how are you doing? It's so great to see you. And I was like, okay, so it's not, it's not a individual problem. It's a group male problem.
Kristina (30:27)
It's a societal image thing, sort of.
Katie (30:31)
talking to him, you know, like, yeah. So I was like, okay, well, what if I just try individually? Because my mind was even if I got two of them to play along with me and merge, my goal was to merge with them, which would have made them way more money, but they didn't listen to me. So your loss, hope you're listening. So had they done that, they would have sold their way more. So I was like, okay, let's just one by one and literally one by one.
I would take them all and I would keep doing dinner and I keep doing lunch and that was my only job in this whole thing. one day said, yes, but here was the risk with it. They're all very close and they all drink together once a and they are wealthy. Right? So this is not like they, they don't need to not drink cause they don't need to show up to work if they don't want to. So I was like, hmm, loose lips think ships. That is going to be a problem.
So in each agreement, I put a confidentiality clause that stated if they open their mouth, the remaining of the balance that I owe you on owner financing becomes zero. Because I was like, if they're not going get paid, they're going keep their mouth shut. Because if one of them screws it up, it screws up my target to where I'm trying to go, right? So yeah, it worked out. There was actually two more I was trying to acquire that I never did acquire.
that just I was never getting down that door. So that's like a side of it. People will never hear.
Kristina (31:50)
So this is now your what 26, 27, 28, 25s around this late 20s, mid to late 20s.
Katie (31:59)
Yeah, I'm heading all the way. I sold it before I was 30 and I'm 31 now.
Kristina (32:04)
this is all in Canada, correct? so you rolled up a few you didn't get everyone you want, but then you started to get some interest in someone wanting to acquire you. So what was that process like? You'd work so hard, you'd had your eye on this ball. And then you've got people now, which would be anyone's dream to say, I want to buy you.
Katie (32:25)
Yeah, and I think the important thing too is like I am running this pretty much virtually like I'm still every month on a plane. I'm traveling. I'm going to the events. I'm with JT. I'm you know, I'm doing a lot of things which means that I've built a perfectly seamless company. To the point I actually have people now creating I thought of this last night creating me testimonies to say, you know, since they purchased my company what the experience has been because they
they're struggling to take a perfectly seamed ship and put it, plug it in with theirs. Right? So they all, and right. So I was like, that's an actually very good compliment for me. That shows like, I am very good at this. I love the wheat systems processes. Like that's my jam. So to have like that type of testimony would be great. So yes, it's important to know I did not want to my company.
There is, I'm explain it like this. There's my company, there's another company and there's one above us. I'm either going eat this company, they're going eat me and someone's going get the $150 million exit. That was my goal. Because now I'm big enough that I can get all the financing I need to go purchase them. And I would have sold up and had that larger exit. So I would say it was
two years before I had actually sold, I started getting offers. I was with JT in LA and I said, someone wants to buy my construction company. I do developments. So I was telling him, I don't want to my company because I mean, wasn't being fully, it wasn't being like, I want to sell for 150 because I don't tell him this was the thing we had to go through in coaching. I didn't tell him numbers.
So I was like, no, I don't want to sell it because I want to use my crews on my development ecosystem. And he was like, yeah, but that's a means to an end. Like just sell it. Like you're getting a great offer for it. Just sell it. And all I had told him was the multiple that I was going to get for it. And I was like, no, I don't think I want to do that yet. So don't take his advice lesson number one and just continue carrying on. And it was probably
how many months after that we had met Adam and we went to dinner with Adam. Yes, And so we're at this dinner and JT goes, why don't you ask Adam about, know, that company you're selling? I said, well, I'm not selling my company yet. But this is the offer that I have. This is my EBITDA. This is my revenue. And again, like,
to Adam's testament, he doesn't know who I am and I'm just some blonde girl sitting at dinner and he's just like, wait, what? Let's start that over again. What are you doing? And I was like, this is a business I have, I'm in construction. I explained the whole thing. I said, here is my offer. And he said, who are they backed by? I disclosed who they were backed by to him. Adam knows everybody. He's like, yep. He's like, you have to take that offer. And I don't know why I was just like, okay.
For like, at that point I was like, but I really want to go after them. And he's like, it's too late. Like they've already been backed. like you're not going to win that war basically. You know, it's off the table and you got to run. So I did, I went home, JT never lets me live it down that I didn't listen to him. And it took a second person telling me to listen. and then I was like, okay, started the, started the sale. That is not a simple process. There is due diligence. There is a lot.
Kristina (35:26)
again.
Katie (35:44)
lawyers and things that are involved. And then there is also 12 months of transitioning into the new owners taking over. So I was helping them kind of get all set up and yeah, then I cried in front of everybody. I was sad I sold my company again.
Kristina (36:00)
And what did I'm sure you're fine could you disclose it everywhere what did you for everyone listening what did you sell it for before she's 30?
Katie (36:07)
74 million.
Kristina (36:08)
for 74 million dollars. But my friend, do you have the young rich list in Canada? Because we do in Australia. And I was looking it up. And if you wanted to be a big fish in a little pond and come to Australia and did something like that, you would.
rank just from that sale alone, let alone whatever else you do with your, your vapes and your royalties there. But on the 74 would put you 67 on that list. You'd be hitting the list already. And you're only that would have been at what 29 or something. So it's pretty phenomenal. And not only that on the Australian rich list, women on it. So the the top one is Melanie Perkins with her husband partner, For Canva right?
14 billion. But you have to go down to 31st before you even get the first single woman, which is an actor. And then you go, I was looking through all the list for just individual women making it on our rich list. Now, no discredit to all the women and even the men on there, to be honest, but there's a lot of partners, husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend, right? So I kept going until I got to the single person.
which was, as I said, 31st was Margot, Most of the women were in fashion and fitness. And then we have two sports persons, an actor, but they were all fashion and fitness. you would skyrocket and you're only 29 at the time, you're 31 now, you still have nine years of dominating.
We're going to set you little goals.
Katie (37:51)
Now, I really wanted to be like Forbes 30 under 30 and I probably could have applied for it. very wise woman told me everybody buys their way on the list. So was like, well, then it's fugazi.
Kristina (38:03)
they might apply. Maybe they don't. I don't know if they do apply here in Australia, to be honest. I'm sure they have to do something about it. And there's some that want to stay off it. This is the financial review So they actually have to have all their accountants and everything and whatever they do in the background, I don't know. But they are legit people.
for us anyway. they're Melanie Perkins Canva you know, Margot Robert, Kayla, Lucy does dish Natasha, Monday swimwear, Jen Hawkins, she does property, she's in property with her partner, though. Steph, she's fitness as well. So and then there's the tennis players. So they're just all very clever people. And I guess where I'm going from there is it's amazing where if you dedicate and you're smart enough where you can actually,
bring wealth and like you made a comment, you sort of threw it away, but I'm just this like blonde girl sitting at the table. And so you must obviously get that first impressions of what, well, what does she do? Or you look at, you might look at you, you're tall, you've got beautiful, like I said, you're beautiful long locks and people would think you're probably a model. And you, cause you dress immaculately, which I really appreciate. But
When you get that bias, because I've been in lot of male dominated roles, and it's almost where if you push back, you're seen as a bitch. you cry because you're selling your company for 74 million, it's like, oh, she's emotional. You date too many men because you can and you're single, then you're a player. But a guy does that and he's a stud.
So do you get that bias much or you don't even notice it anymore?
Katie (39:37)
I do. I will always get it for the rest of my life. In some ways it's your advantage. They don't see you coming, especially when it comes to business. I did a lot in PPE during the pandemic. My company actually won an award at Congress for that. And I was able to be a part of that. And that was something that was incredible.
Again, there was not nice people when I'm going to hedge funds for hundreds of millions of dollars. And, know, it's still again, like we're on zoom, it's a pandemic, but it's still a boys club, right? So branding was actually the thing that helped me the most. And I give JT all that credit. JT definitely changed my life when it comes to branding, especially because I'm not the girl that wants to be on social media. I'm not the girl that wants to be on stage. I'm not the girl that wants to do a speech.
I am not that girl and he has made me continuously do it over and over and over again. Whether I kicked, screamed, cried, wanted to punch him in the face. Like he has just continuously made me do that and it's worked. Like I look back at PPE. I was sending him a clip the other day of it's way back. We did, did a interview and I'm talking about the success I had had at PPE.
And I said, literally the reason I feel like I got those deals across the line was my WhatsApp photo was a picture with me and Dr. Phil. And it's like, it's just credibility. It's like, okay, yeah, she's blonde or she's younger. She's this and she's a woman. like all the objections go out the window the second they saw that photo. Now do I have the proof of that? No. But I know that like I take my branding to a whole different level.
I'm constantly, who am I emailing and what should I change the photo to at the bottom of the email signature and who am I talking to? And if I'm in a meeting, like I'm going name drop, but what am I name dropping? And just the way in which you position it and you talk about it, that starts to handle the objections a lot more. And what I, especially this last year, cause I've been on the road with him all year that I've noticed is okay, well, obviously when JT talks about me and I walk into a room, I'm validated.
Right? Like he knows me, he knows my success, he knows what I've done. so it's easy for us to just say, okay, and that's Katie. But if all of you guys met me in the lobby, I'm just a housewife. Like that is a reality. Like it doesn't make me necessarily angry anymore because I'm not here to change women and male views and like what's right and what's wrong. And, you know, I'm not here to change any of those things. I am who I am.
And I know that I need to be on top of my game. So I'm constantly addressing what those objections are. And I look, I also look at, you know, just cause we both know him. I look at JT and I know when he gets on a big stage, she talks for 90 minutes, handling objections. One of the most powerful people I know, but he has to sit there and be like, this is that. So if he has to do it, of course I have to do it. And he's a man and I'm a woman. Like, you know what mean? So, and I see it with so many entrepreneurs, like the women have to fight 10 times harder.
That's just the reality. That's not a feminist quote. That is, we do have to fight 10 times harder. And the men, they have to try to not kill one another because they want to be with each other. There's an ego side to it.
Kristina (42:48)
I do find that, don't you, as well. And you're in the big executive meetings when you are trying to negotiate certain deals and you're dealing with either generational. I was trying to do a deal recently with generational, so an older man, and he's just so stuck in his ways for what he's been in his business for 20 years, and he's so stuck. And then we're in round three now where he's gone, no.
and then they've come back and then he's gone no and then he's come back because he's like you young entrepreneurs. I appreciate I just got called young. But it's like you say learning how for anyone who's going through negotiations or anything in business, corporate, career, know what the objections are that are coming at you and overcoming them within the conversation, within everything you're doing. Are you finding that's more natural to you now?
Katie (43:38)
Handling the objection is yeah, definitely more. I think I was more nervous going into it You gotta remember to like I've done everything on my own I don't play with other fish. I have learned this so like I have done it all on my own and I have been you know, top of my castle and running my castle and You know, that was a transition. There was a lot of fights. There was a lot of like, you know uproar that had happened where I had to realize, you know, they
I need to play my role in my area and other people need to play theirs. And I think that's okay. Like there's nothing wrong with that, but you have to get over it. Like you do have to just be okay with the fact that forever people, and of course we're all human. I think that does get to you. There are days I break down and cry and hyperventilate and I don't want to leave my room. And I wanted to leave the room and I never want to see anyone again because I don't need to be out there.
in the public eye. Like I don't, I physically don't need to do it. I'm very happy walking on a job site. I'm the biggest country girl you're ever meet. So I'm in cowboy boots 24 seven. I am in my plaid and my ripped jeans. And I'm a happy girl in my pickup truck. Like leave me alone. That would be my beautiful life. But especially after the year I have, I do understand, know, JT gets this too. I understand where the guilt comes from if I know what I've done for other people this year.
And I know like how much I've changed their lives. I know how much their businesses are thriving. And now I feel guilty. Like I feel if, God help me if he watches this, but you know, there's been times where, know, giving back to other people is always something I've wanted to do. But then at the same time, when I started doing it more and more and more, I realized that is a gift. And if you can actually change other people's lives, you have to do that while you're on this.
I don't need to do it, but now it's like, I'm in it. So I do need to give back.
delete all social media tomorrow. I would never speak on one stage. I would hide on my farm and be very happy.
Kristina (45:41)
You'd be a happy Katie. So, and then, and you've also proven now that, no one messes with you as well. can I say, I did just see on your post, you're doing a beautiful photo shoot looking glam. And I loved that outfit, find out where it is later. But B, you're also suing a rat. Can we who, what and who's ass do we all need to kick for you as well?
Katie (46:03)
Well, we can't discuss any of that, but I will say too that is I think one of my weaknesses can be I'm hard when I'm in my businesses, but I'm also very nice. if someone comes to me and is like, this is now an issue and we call her Bianca, we need to bring Bianca out of the cage. That's like, I will go to war.
And it doesn't matter if it's me or it's, know, my family can be the people that work for me, that can be under my umbrella. It can be anybody, but you start messing with, my people, that's not okay. And so, do I think it's going turn into this big thing? No, it's more of someone needs to be told, sit down and shut up, right? And I think my boldness,
can get me in trouble. My boldness is also the thing that protects me. And I don't like being that person and I don't like having to, but that is what every successful person has to do. You have to protect the kingdom.
Kristina (47:01)
I agree with I agree with that. And I do believe strongly in that if people are doing the wrong thing, and they're doing it by you, they've probably done it by others. And it's just taking whoever's that strongest person and as it's no, I can't tell you that wouldn't be anyone. don't care who you are. There's no one on this earth that would like going through that that likes that fight. But it does have to be done and so credit to you for actually standing up for what's right in whatever's going on there.
We had an employee in my family's thing and they had to get charged. And it was really, really, really, stressful time, especially for my mother actually. And where she just want it to go away. And I had to really rally behind her and go, no, mom, this person is evil. And I guarantee you this isn't the first time they've done this and they have to have to pay no one stood up to them ever.
And I said, I'm going to stand there. We're to be right there with you, but we're not letting this person get away with it. And it's tough but sometimes to do what's right.
Katie (47:58)
You're not successful if you don't get sued or you have to sue someone. It's a daily occurrence. It's just this one really was, it was a come on being shitty that needs to.
Kristina (48:09)
Someone's
just shitty people. Do you know what? People are shitty, kids are shitty.
Katie (48:13)
If I know, here's another thing. Sometimes when you know you have something in the bag, like you know you're right, you know you're going to win the negotiation. Like when you know, like it goes to prove that they're just trying to mess with you. And this will happen a lot for people in business or in life. When someone knows that you actually have the upper hand on them and, they're still trying. Like that's when you go full force. Because I know I'm not going to lose. I know it's not even going go to court.
I know it's going literally be like, okay, we surrender. I think, I don't think people have like a valve anymore. I think they say whatever the fuck they want. They do whatever the fuck they want. They have no morals. They have no integrity. Like even good people cross the line all the time. So it's like, you have to have your eyes and ears open at all times. And again, like when you're coming after my people, like that's...
Kristina (48:57)
Mm.
Katie (49:06)
That's where I get angry because now it's me, but it's not even really about me now. I wasn't here for the issue. didn't know what happened. It just all got explained to me. so that's where it's like, people, they need to be shut up.
Kristina (49:22)
some people they just twist their reality and the reality is so warped that you can't, you can't reason with crazy, I always say so. what is Katie Kay's North Star? What is the next? Let's go five, 10 years is 10 years too far? Do we go one year?
I was going to say, what's the, what's our 40? If we've got, we've got nine years left on the rich list, Katie, what's our.
Katie (49:44)
to hit the belly in.
Kristina (49:45)
The young rich List. Then you come over to the dark side.
Katie (49:48)
I want the old one. More of what I'm doing. I have, I still want to keep giving back. I still want to go on the road and be with everyone. And I think I've learned that that's very important to me. But at the same time, I do want to be, you know, buying and selling companies, staying in my lane, staying in my construction. It is the gold mine right now. I can't emphasize it enough that like,
as talented as I am, these skills can be taught. You can do this. Like everybody could do this type of business on a different scale. Like, yes, maybe not going and buying a $20 million company or a $10 million company, but you can go buy a million dollar company. Like that is something that you can actually.
Kristina (50:21)
with
a $500,000 revenue company.
Katie (50:24)
That's
why I say it because I'm like within five years we're doing 40 million. like it's, that's the part I really like to emphasize for people. For me it is more of doing that exact same thing. Last year was very hard year for me personally. finally, I can see the clouds have moved. I can see the sunshine coming in and so I just need to do you know what's best for me and those around me and give it my all and keep going.
Kristina (50:49)
You do need to focus on you, Katie, and you need to make sure that you're at your best because we all love being around you. And if anyone is here watching, I'm to have all the details below in how they can get in contact with you, follow you on your socials. As much as you love and hate them, we all love and hate them, mate.
And if they want to get coaching, where to go, or even just to learn how to roll up scale or what they want to do, or even just follow your journey in your next big exit in what you do, because it's exciting to watch. So I really appreciate all you're doing. I know I've actually spoken to people who are your clients, who have not been asked to do testimonials and all they have ever done is rave about, and they've had a few different business coaches rave about your advice.
how streamlined and structured it is to follow how easy you make it seem, but then you also help people through with the next steps where not just the big fluffy picture, you actually go practical in steps, which is what 99 % of the people want. They like to see the big dream, they get excited by that, but then they still get lost
So it is a wonder what you do in the ripple effect and the ongoing butterfly effect. I like to call it the impact you're having on people's lives. You actually will never know. You'll never know the generational wealth that you're actually creating for people. And that can just sit with you for a moment because it really is changing people's lives and you don't even you don't even ever know. So thank you. Thank you for your time on transforming the game. You're absolutely amazing. Thanks, Katie.