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Our podcast features special guests and leaders discussing the many projects, partnerships, and innovations driving hydrogen adoption — starting in the Edmonton Metro Region, and expanding outward to Alberta, Canada, and the World.
Edmonton Region Hydrogen HUB is a collaborative initiative dedicated to advancing a thriving hydrogen economy in the Edmonton Region and beyond. Bringing together municipalities, industry, and associations, the HUB focuses on building a robust hydrogen value chain through collaboration, system integration, and policy advocacy. Leveraging the region’s world-class hydrogen production facilities and strategic infrastructure, the HUB drives innovation, promotes decarbonization, and stimulates economic growth, positioning the Edmonton region as a global leader in sustainable hydrogen development.
Welcome to the hydrogen two point o podcast where Alberta's energy story evolves. Join us as we explore what's changed, what's working, and what's next from the Edmonton region and beyond. Here's your host, Kessia Kopecki.
Kessia:Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning in and listening to the first ever episode of hydrogen two point o. What a perfect cast of guest speakers we have for this first episode. We have mayor Alanna Nachu of Sturgeon County who is also the former chair of the Edmonton region hydrogen hub. And joined with us also is Brent Lakeman, the current executive director of the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub.
Kessia:So thanks both of you so much for joining us today. It feels very perfect that it's the two of you for our first episode. So thank you so much.
Alanna:Hi, Kessia. Thanks for the invitation.
Brent:Great to be part of this one.
Kessia:So, I guess I'll start by getting right into it. With this podcast, we're hoping that it's not just the usual suspects that are gonna be listening all the time. So maybe some listeners don't know who you are, although I know in the Edmonton region, both of you are quite notable. So if you'd like to just tell me a little bit about yourself, your background, especially as it relates to the Edmonton Region hydrogen economy and your role in it and the Edmonton Region hydrogen hub because you both had leading roles in that right from the beginning. And now, Brent, you're in this new phase for it.
Kessia:So, Brent, I'd like to start with you if you can tell us a little bit about you.
Brent:Sure. Happy to, Kasia. So I'm the executive director of the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub. I've been in that role since January. I came from Edmonton Global, which is the regional economic development corporation for the Edmonton Metropolitan Region representing 14 municipalities and really had the great opportunity to be focused really on hydrogen and, yeah, I guess, clean energy in general, but certainly with a huge focus on hydrogen for the the time I've been with Edmonton Global and and now with the hydrogen hub.
Brent:And and for me, it kinda builds on my career where I did spend, really all of my career, you know, with the public sector, primarily the Alberta government and Alberta, innovation organizations where I was focused on clean energy, things like carbon capture and storage. So really all comes together to really support this incredible opportunity that our region has around building out this hydrogen opportune hydrogen economy really, that's leading the country in many ways.
Kessia:Yeah. Seems like a natural transition for you to get into this role here with the hub. So, yeah, couldn't be more fitting, really. Alana, can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your history?
Alanna:Sure. Well, elected to office in 2017 for Ameri for Surgeon County, but prior to that, had some experience in oil and gas service industry around the environment and safety side as well. So had some awareness of how important oil and gas was to the Alberta economy, and also served two years as chair of Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association. Sturgeon County is a member of that twenty five year old association. So seeing some of the opportunities and the challenges around oil and gas and petrochemicals and management of water and management of air sheds and the push towards decarbonization of transportation as well as the decarbonization and protection of the air shed for heavy industry.
Alanna:And in 2019, I became aware of a white paper that was put out by the Transition Accelerator out of the University of Calgary. And so Sturgeon County became quite interested in some of the opportunities as as the Heartland was already had been making hydrogen for, you know, thousands of tons of hydrogen on a daily basis for industrial use. Also knowing about our pore space and the enabling carbon capture that was already happening here, we took that to the Heartland Association, who very early on embraced the understanding, need for further study. And so, eventually, we had funding from both the federal government, the provincial government, and the members of the association to create this hydrogen hub, to create a table, to convene a coalition of the willing. And as well, it was very early on important to us to bring indigenous leadership to the table.
Alanna:So it was one of the first really formalized, I think, economic reconciliation opportunities in oil and gas in Alberta, which was really important to Sturgeon County. And so that just helped to break down barriers between government, academia, economic development bodies. And it seemed to be this space where a bit of a unicorn, you know, in 2021 when we were formed to see alignment between First Nations, municipalities, provincial government, and the federal government. And they all had published strategies that that had alignment. So to me, this was a real opportunity where we could start rowing in the same direction and find a way to manage the evolution of energy by playing to our strengths, which in Alberta is utilization of natural gas, but also responsibly understanding that we needed to figure out something to do with the carbon.
Alanna:And so we've just continued. Edmonton Global stepped in and brought to fruition the Canadian Hydrogen Convention with DMG, which, you know, four years running now brings, you know, thousands of international investors to the area to understand the the Alberta advantage and the broader Canadian advantage. And so that's kind of the space that I've dwelled in for the last almost six years now, actually, and it's been really exciting just to see what was siloed initiatives and research finally have a a convening table and just how the region and the province and the country embrace this conversation. And then, of course, we've seen a lot of developments happening in The US and in Europe as well. So it's really been a really exciting time.
Alanna:And I'm sure we'll touch on some of the challenges as well.
Brent:I just want to jump in. I think, Mayor, you've been way too modest here. I've, you know, often give a a talk on hydrogen. And, you know, what what I'd like to remark is this region through the leadership of yourself and others from the industrial heartland, you know, saw this opportunity well before the Canadian hydrogen strategy came out, well before the Alberta hydrogen roadmap, and it really influenced those strategies and those documents looking at how hubs and how these kind of regional ecosystems play just a critical role. So just wanna really acknowledge it was that foresight, you know, that the group from the Transition Accelerator that got these reports going, how the Heartland caught on to this, you know, again, well before anybody else was at it.
Brent:And then we can easily say that this region was really at the forefront and others caught on to it subsequently.
Kessia:Yeah. I'm curious about that white paper from the Transition Accelerator because it sounds like that was almost like a milestone pivot point. Right? Like, reading that, learning from it. So I know it was a a couple years ago, but is there something in particular about it that really, really resonated with everybody that was working towards this hydrogen opportunity?
Kessia:Like, when you looked at it, what was the thing that stood out where you were thinking this needs to be a priority now? We need to start focusing on hydrogen and working towards it.
Alanna:I think for the residents that I speak to and even, you know, for family involved in oil and gas, this discussion around transition to net zero was a place where people didn't see hope. They didn't see a a place for themselves. They didn't see the building blocks of this province being acknowledged. They didn't see it as an opportunity to continue to leverage our strengths and being a part of the decarbonization strategy. So for me, for Surgeon County and for the Heartland Association, we just saw this as an incredible opportunity to play to your strengths, which is what you need to do.
Alanna:As I said, low cost natural gas feedstock. We already had the skill set here, and we have the the geology in the pore space to be able to do something here that not everyone could do. We had already billions of dollars in infrastructure with the Alberta carbon trunk line and ShellQuest. And so to me, it seemed like we had all of the tools and all of the ingredients. We just needed to create a sequencing and start to make some connections.
Alanna:And so to me, I just saw all the ingredients laid out on the counter. We just needed to put together the recipe to bake the cake, and and we're still doing that.
Kessia:I'm just thinking about, like, how how this all started. Right? And it's the first hydrogen hub in Canada. I think it's it's spurred more hubs to be developed throughout Alberta, Western Canada, and now even Central And Eastern Canada are having hubs, which is really good for our overall economy. Think, hopefully, there'll be a point in time where all these hubs are working together in order to continue that alignment, which would be excellent, despite differences in industrial capabilities.
Kessia:And, for example, if we're going off of our existing expertise, workforce, and infrastructure. Right? Other places have different. But when we started this hub, what what kinds of lessons did you have from other hubs? Were there other hubs in in the world that you heard about or learned about that helped come up with this idea, or even maybe it wasn't specifically with hydrogen?
Alanna:I I I think a strong communication strategy is something we saw even some of the shift to natural gas that was taking place in in The UK was not successful because there was misunderstanding of the who and the why was behind it, and misunderstanding of the benefits and the safety. And we had that challenge even at the inception of the hub here. You have so few resources. You're often worried about getting the right studies and the right people at the table, and the communication of it and the naturalization of it and the socialization of it is always challenging because that often is an afterthought, or much we're also a bit of a victim of our own success. There were so many people hungry for information.
Alanna:It was really challenging to manage those requests, and I know in early days, we did virtual meetings with folks from around the world, you know, China, Japan, South Korea, just to try to understand even what the export market and interests were. And we learned some valuable lessons there. Those weren't necessarily hubs, but they were potential customers. And so I think we're still learning and iterating, and then we saw what the emission reduction or sorry, the inflation reduction act in The states, you know, unleashing trillions of dollars towards 13 hubs there. It became very clear to us that that money was going to be what needed to move this.
Alanna:And the challenge still is whose money? How much of that is public dollars and how much of that is private dollars? But even if the money is there, if you don't have clear policy and regulations, especially clear policy signals, then then money is gonna be slow to deploy. And so we've seen successes and challenges around the world, both on the speed of cash and the speed of policy development, and we're still wrestling with that challenge here.
Brent:When you
Alanna:go ahead.
Brent:Sorry, I was just gonna jump in, like when we look at, you know, hubs, we sometimes I'll call them clusters in other parts of the world or valleys. We've been in the Europe a few times and they talk about hydrogen valleys. And I think those have been ideas that have been out there for a few years now. And I think it does definitely make sense as you're trying to build out hydrogen use, which is a little different than some of the other energy commodities that we use. And you need to have this cluster to a certain extent to build demand, especially in new areas that are maybe the non industrial uses.
Brent:So I think we've been kind of watching those and I think they're all a little different is what I've noticed though. And again, they go from sometimes very small innovation focused hubs and clusters where they're really just trying to deploy one technology and really proving it up. And that's good work to do, but that's very different than the Edmonton Region hydrogen hub. And then you have The United States with these, you know, massive, you know, billion dollar funded, at least they had been the billion dollar funded hubs and they tend to be big money flow through organizations, which is also very different than what we're doing here. And I think ours is really rooted in regional economic development, which is, how do we really pull together all the key parts of this really robust ecosystem that we already have here from industrial sector, the petrochemical sector, the pipelines that we have and other things like that.
Brent:So I think all hubs are a little bit unique and I think, ours has been, I think quite resilient in the sense of, we've got some of these key enablers that Belen already talked about with heavy industry, with the expertise, with the innovation CCUS and so on. So I think that's been our learning is you really need to have it rooted in kind of your economic development organizations here that are really see the value and also support the homegrown technologies as well. And then we'll come back to that in a few minutes, but, you know, I think it's this combination of large scale initiatives that the private sector is leading, but then the things that, you know, we need to be doing ourselves to kind of fill the gaps.
Kessia:I guess that leads me to another question, which I was going to get to eventually here is Brent, especially now that you're in this new phase for the Edmonton region hydrogen hub, new governance structure, new funding models, and, of course, new leadership and new strategic pillars. When you talk about how our hub is is doing things differently than everywhere else, and there's many different reasons for it. Right? But I guess now we can talk a little bit about, like, what is the hub doing? What, how are we operating now?
Kessia:What are what are the what are their priorities and what are, what's the kind of work that you're move aiming to move towards in that Yeah.
Brent:Well, there's a lot in there. I mean, I guess essentially it's it's, you know, it's just continuing to build on the work that was launched, over four years ago when the hydrogen hub was first set up and it created that vision of, you know, how hydrogen can really play at a critical role in our long term economic and environmental future here. You know, this is an opportunity that this region has that is very, very significant, you know, potentially, you know, in the, you know, the billions and billions of dollars for this region. So what's, I guess what's changed is, you know, really recognizing again that we got, you know, multiple parties here that can play a really important role. One that'll highlight, you know, that maybe wasn't part of the original, you know, let's say the governance model around the hydrogen hub is the, our airports, where airports doing a lot of exciting work around the hydrogen opportunity within that airport ecosystem.
Brent:And it's kind of similar to what you see in other parts of the world. They won't call it an airport, it'll be a port. So maybe a, you know, Port Of Los Angeles or other port of Rotterdam where a lot of work on hydrogen is beginning where you've got these kind of self contained units to a certain extent that can help drive it forward. So, you know, we've kind of got a hub within a hub with the Edmonton International Airport that's now part of this equation. You know, certainly all the municipalities that are comprising the Alberta Industrial Heartland, the Edmonton region, so through Edmonton Global and for the Alberta Industrial Heartland Association, all of those participants really all coming together.
Brent:So whether it's that production side, but most importantly, the use side, beginning to leverage each other's work as much as possible. So if the the Edmonton International Airport is trialing some dual fuel technologies, some of those outcomes may be very valuable for other parts of this region and vice versa. If a municipality, Sturgeon County, Strathcona County, City Of Edmonton, if they're doing some work, then we can all benefit, make sure we're sharing information. So, it's really the mandate is very similar to what it's been. It's really building the case for more hydrogen demand within the region because that's what we're ultimately trying to do is to create that demand so we can show hydrogen has functions.
Brent:It's not a silver bullet. It's not going to fit for absolutely every application, but things like long haul transportation, some of the municipal fleets, some opportunities around heat and power, and maybe even some new industrial applications that we hadn't thought about several years ago that we can start working towards. So it's by growing that demand that we can really de risk all these future projects and then allow more hydrogen production to take place. So that really hasn't changed. That's been the focus from the start, but now it's really, you know, how do we continue to catalyze some action?
Brent:And don't get me wrong, that's a very difficult endeavor because, you know, getting action secured does require a supportive policy environment, supportive incentives. And that's part of our role at the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub. It's to serve as a bit of an advocate. So what do we need to see from governments provincially, federally, and even municipally around the types of incentives or the types of regulations, how do we convene all the parties in our system? So we're really all rolling in the same direction.
Brent:I think we've all done a pretty good job at that over the years, but there's always a little more there that we can be doing. And again, what gaps can the hub fill in by doing some additional systems analysis or integration? An example would be, you know, how do we actually prepare for these deployments that are gonna happen over the coming years? And, you know, it's one thing to say we're gonna get trucks and buses in the ecosystem, but sometimes those decisions aren't ours, but we also need to make sure that we've got the workforce prepared for it. We've got the types of infrastructure prepared for it.
Brent:So if you're bringing in hydrogen vehicles, well, where are they gonna go? You know, where are they being stored? And how do we make sure our municipalities or the private sector have the tools they need to be able to take these tasks on? Which maybe they're not gonna happen tomorrow, but they are gonna happen certainly over the next couple of years. So really preparing this region for success in hydrogen deployment of all types.
Kessia:I like that you're saying this because I think it speaks a little bit to the opportunities that are coming in the Edmonton region and and everywhere, really, when you think about the challenges. Right? Like, there's challenges that happen when you're trying to create and build an economy that didn't exist just a short while ago. Right? So, I wonder if we can talk a little bit more about what those challenges are.
Kessia:And especially, Alana, I know, like, you've been in it from the beginning. Brent, you've been in it for years too, but you're also still very, very tied into it and and very outspoken about the hydrogen opportunity. So, I'm wondering if you can just tell me a little bit about from then to now, like, even looking at the hydrogen landscape and the economic political landscape or industrial landscape, and how has how has it evolved over the last couple of years, especially when looking at challenges and and the opportunities that have come from those?
Alanna:I'll jump in. And, I mean, certainty is what investors like. And and I think the world is hungry for certainty. And nowadays, five minutes into the news cycle, you just see a new level of uncertainty. So that is a challenge.
Alanna:It's not just affecting hydrogen. It's affecting global economies and governments around the world. I think the other uncertainty even comes around what our decarbonization strategy is and what kind of federal provincial supports are gonna be there. These projects often, you know, the the depending on the size of it, can take anywhere from five to ten years before people make a decision. And so if they don't have a surety that the policy is gonna be consistent and that the business case they started with is going to be the business case when they go operational, that's very difficult for them to make these, you know, million and billion dollar investments.
Alanna:So that that can be a challenge. And I think as well, Canada has, you know, puts safety and environment very high as as they ought to on the priority list. But I would say Canada as well maybe has lost the sense of urgency around decision making and around policy development and around signaling. And so the challenges have been the speed or the pace of which policy and regulation has been developed to send the clear signals and set up the guardrails that people need to be able to make decisions here. I'd say one of the benefits, one of the upsides, I tend to talk about what's going wrong, so I do wanna talk about what's going right, and I've been really pleased to see the speed that our academic institutions have responded to curriculum development and research papers and ecosystem supports, both through NAIT and the University of Alberta.
Alanna:And I'm quite sure that University of Calgary, again, that's where the initial paper came out of, will continue the great leading edge work that they've done. I'd say one of the challenges from a municipal standpoint is because we are, you know, not for profit and municipalities ought not run deficits. It's a challenge to determine how to apply taxpayers' dollars to be able to be a part of the solution. We need to be you know, Sturgeon County is a place of innovation, and we wanna be on the leading edge of things, but we ought not be on the bleeding edge of things. And so it's trying to understand where the appropriate time is for our fleet conversion and our building conversions and updates so that we can share those learnings with other partners across the region.
Alanna:And we know everyone is playing to their strengths. Fort Saskatchewan is doing their blending project for home heating. That's been a plus that they've been able to do that, but a bit of a minus that it's had to be done through electrolysis and not through natural gas. And as well, the fact that the regulations aren't there to support the cost effective blending throughout the province. So those challenges, and I think initially, was quite excited about the alignment I saw across governments, but I would have liked to have seen agreement on the pillars and the outcomes that needed to be sought first and the decisions around some timelines so that we all knew what we were working towards and when decisions would be made, and that those decisions would be made around the the health of the economy and not necessarily, you know, political wins, which are always challenging in democracies.
Alanna:Blessings and challenges all wrapped up into one.
Kessia:It's like any good group project. Right?
Brent:I totally agree with those perspectives and I think we have learned a lot over the past four years and I'm a little bit of a born optimist. Think that see everyone's just going to deploy hydrogen vehicle applications in other areas and we've certainly seen challenges around that and sometimes they're just straightforward challenges like you want to demonstrate these technologies and if don't you have a winter that's cold enough to demonstrate cold winter conditions while you're set back a year or if your fuel is not available at the right time at the right place, well, you're set back again. So we've kind of discovered that. And I think if anything is really pointed to the value of some of the homegrown solutions that we're seeing in place within this region, whether it's what we're seeing on hydrogen diesel dual fuel conversions and what's happening in municipal fleets and commercial fleets. Not to say that's the only technology, but it's, I think four years ago, we thought we have to bring in these technologies from other parts of Canada around the world.
Brent:And by the way, we're actually developing these right in house and same goes for some of the refueling infrastructure where we need to have these more nimble solutions as we wait for some of the other, let's say larger scale projects to come to be. So, we've been able to see Alberta companies to come to the fore like Azola Hydrogen, Diesel Tech Industries, Innovative Fuel Systems, those types of companies that can't really step in and play a critical role right now. So there's certainly some headwinds, but I think there's some really exciting, you know, stories here about, you know, how we're developing things here. And even in some cases, you know, other parties from around the world are actually connecting with our own companies to help even augment those technologies even more. So this innovation is all happening right here.
Brent:Again, I think innovation has been a story that we're going to continue to follow around hydrogen because, you know, I think maybe two or three years ago I thought, oh, we don't need any more innovation. It's all ready to go. And we kind of learned, no, it's not like there's an ongoing need for de risking these technologies. So municipalities and the private sector can jump ahead with them. So I think that's really the important part as well with the hub.
Brent:How do we all come together around these next steps before we're into, you know, really widespread commercial deployment?
Kessia:Yeah. Alana, do you have anything you wanna add to this one?
Alanna:Well, I just wanted to say as well and to touch on, you know, the comparison to other hubs. The other hubs that we looked at, you know, as Brent had mentioned, were quite focused. They were either specifically on heavy industry or specifically on home heating, and the region here was looking to create an entire ecosystem and value chain, both from your production to your off taker. And so I also think that is, you know, why we've seen so many challenges as well this country is so vast that it depends on your geography and geology as to what pathway to hydrogen makes sense for you. So it's very difficult to create a one size fits all federal policy when we have just the diversity that we do.
Alanna:But I think that's why people have come to see what's happening here is because we are dealing with that whole bag of tricks. And in doing so, we are continuing to innovate. And the one thing that Canada has always done is as one of our best exports is exporting its technology. And so the more that we invest in pilot projects here for the very reason that Brent talked about the temperature swings. You know, I've spoken in countries where people are apoplectic when they under when they come to understand that we go from plus 40 to minus 40 in a calendar year.
Alanna:So if you want a place to be able to test your product, the Edmonton region is that place. And we have the skill set here to innovate and not just then export our goods and our ingredients, but to export the technologies and the learnings that we make along the way.
Kessia:Alright. I guess one final question just for us to wrap up this absolutely amazing and engaging conversation. So thank you so much for this past thirty minutes of of great dialogue. When we're looking at the Edmonton region's hydrogen economy or Alberta as a whole or even looking at Western Canada, what's something that we should or that you are looking forward to? Near future, maybe it's a magic wand way into the future.
Kessia:What's something that you're excited about?
Brent:I guess I'm excited about, you know, some of the work that we're doing now. We have a Calgary region, hydrogen hub stood up. We've got some of the hubs in other parts of Alberta, other parts of British Columbia. And even if they're not officially a hub, they're certainly looking at some of these opportunities. So, we're looking, we're continuing to look at the transportation sector in particular, the long haul transportation sector and some new players that are coming together.
Brent:You know, we've kicked off earlier this year, the Western Canada Hydrogen Corridors Initiative, and it's really stimulating some incredible conversations. Yeah, with some of the usual suspects, but also with some very new players here that, you know, there, we hadn't necessarily always thought that they're ready to, you know, get involved in some of these. And it's still the early days. We don't have, you know, anything to really announce just yet, but we're starting to see, you know, bringing together different players, different business models, whole different approaches around this. So again, how we thought maybe things would be deployed three or four years ago.
Brent:I think there's some learnings what we're seeing in other hubs around Europe, The United States and bringing some of those lessons forward. So I'm optimistic we'll have a lot more to talk about over the coming months around that area in particular. And I think there'll be other areas as well. And sometimes it's some of the background information that I was mentioning, you know, whether it's the workforce of the future or some of the infrastructure we need to have in place.
Alanna:And I'm excited to see, you know, much like Brent touched on the corridor work. I mean, a hub unto itself, unless you're just excited about district energy and district economic development, if it's not connected to other hubs, then it's quite limited in its impact. And so I'm really excited to see the other hubs that are coming together across Alberta, across the Western Canada, and eventually across Canada. I think this is really another opportunity to invest in nation building infrastructure to be able to utilize hydrogen either as an energy or a fuel or a pathway to electricity or a pathway to decarbonizing industry. And I I just see this as a bit of the the Swiss army knife, which again, depending on how you're gonna use that Swiss army knife, it's either a right or wrong fit.
Alanna:But I just see the flexibility here and the opportunity here to be a really strong foundational opportunity for Canada to regain its world class resource and economic development opportunity. There's a market share globally that we've pulled away from or lost over the last few decades that I think hydrogen can be an enabler through ammonia or other avenues to be able to take back some of that market share and continue to lead the world in incremental decarbonization. We can do it at home and we can export that opportunity abroad as well. And so I'm really excited about that, and I'm excited to see how we can show our students and our current workforce that there is a place for them in the future of energy in Canada and globally.
Kessia:Thank you. Yeah. I'm excited for this next chapter for energy in Alberta. I think there's so much momentum happening. It seems to change day to day.
Kessia:But what I'm really most excited about both of you is having you both here and being able to have this conversation and and having everybody be able to listen in and learn from both of you in our brand new podcast.
Alanna:Thank you so much for watching.
Kessia:That's it for today's episode of hydrogen two point o. If you are looking to learn more about the Edmonton region's hydrogen economy, learn more about the Edmonton region hydrogen hub, or get in touch with us, you can visit hydrogen.ca or send us an email at hello@hydrogen.ca. Also, feel free to follow us on LinkedIn, the Edmonton Region hydrogen hub, to stay up to date on all the news and all the activities happening in our hydrogen economy.