A Podcast for Coaches shines a light on one of the most elegant, underrated business models in the world: one-on-one coaching. Mark Butler hosts the show, and he's been a coach and advisor to every kind of online business you can think of, having helped businesses earning everything from $0 to $25,000,000+. Although Mark believes every online business model has merit, he worries one-on-one coaching is viewed as a stepping-stone business for people who aren't ready or able to scale. But it's not true, and A Podcast for Coaches sets out to show people--through clear teaching and rich, current stories of successful coaches who love their business--that one-on-one coaching is one of the most gratifying and lowest "hassle-per-dollar" businesses in the world.
Hey, this is Mark Butler and you are
listening to a podcast for coaches.
A few months back.
I released an episode talking
about my significant concerns with
the launch based business model.
And.
My friend and client, Kristen
boss happened to listen to
that episode and she told me.
That she was on a walk while she was
listening to the episode and she was
agreeing with me so enthusiastically
that she was pumping her fists.
And kind of shouting.
Into the neighborhood, which
I thought was very funny.
And she said, when we
were talking about this.
You know, you really are sharing
some important truths with people and
I'd be happy to come on your podcast
and share my personal experience
with the things you were teaching.
Which is very generous of her.
She's had some very high
highs in that model.
She's had some very low lows.
And she's been in the trenches.
I've been an observer of the
launch based business model.
She's been.
On the front lines for almost five years.
It's paid off in some big ways for her.
And it's also cost her a great deal.
So I'm really grateful that Kristen
would come on the show and be so open
and so vulnerable with her experience.
And I'm very happy to share with you.
So.
Without further ado, let's get
into a conversation between me
and my friend, Kristen boss.
Mark Butler: Okay.
So, what was causing
you to pump your fist?
Kristen Boss: Okay, I think
it was a couple things.
It was it was when you talked about
when we develop an unrealistic reality
based on one big successful launch
and like forgetting that what you've
actually done is emptied the auditorium.
And realize like you've capitalized
on the auditorium that you've
been filling for however long by
giving value, adding to people.
And so when you make an offer that
the auditorium empties but you know
and I think this is so important.
You talked about like the insane flooding
of dopamine that happens in your brain.
When that happens and you and I, you
have actually seen me come off of a
massive dopamine high where it's it's
almost like an adrenaline crash.
Like it's so bad.
And so talking about the idea of We
develop these unrealistic expectations,
but then especially when you talked about
you start, you talk to a market and
then the, you get used to talking
to that market and then you expand
into the cold market and you're
still talking to that cold market
as if you're in the warm market.
And they don't resonate with you.
And that person's well, why?
Why do people hate me?
What's going on?
Well, it's because you don't realize
you're talking to a completely
different market of people that
they could care less about you.
In fact, they're probably
hostile towards you.
And so just the idea of like realistic
expectations on filling your auditoriums
or creating demand for your offer.
How often is a sustainable to put, you
know, to make an ask of your audience.
And protecting your mindset in between
and developing, you know realistic
expectations and all the things with like
our dopamine and adrenaline and cortisol.
And I think I said this to you
once that my therapist said to me,
she's adrenaline or what you call it.
She's adrenaline is
for novices in business.
Learning to work without
adrenaline is when you become pro.
Mark Butler: Your therapist said that?
Yeah!
You might have told me that.
Yeah.
Does she work with a
lot of business owners?
No.
I mean, it's pretty.
She just
Kristen Boss: worked with me
Mark Butler: long enough.
It's pretty spot on.
Yeah.
And the launch model is
so adrenaline fueled.
Kristen Boss: Oh.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
She's pretty spot on.
Maybe we can give some color to this.
So you started your business in 2019?
Kristen Boss: Yeah, at the end of 2019.
Mark Butler: Did you start
with a one to many offer?
Did you start with one on one?
Kristen Boss: I started with one on one.
You weren't there for
Mark Butler: long though.
Kristen Boss: Nope.
Well, when I offered paid, I was
coaching people for free to get proof of
concept for a year leading up to that.
Mark Butler: A whole year?
A
Kristen Boss: whole year.
Mark Butler: How much coaching were
you doing for free in that season?
Kristen Boss: Not many, I think three
to six people that I was just working
with closely to, I was testing
concepts and I'll never forget.
It was one girl I saw trying to
launch a course on Instagram and
her marketing was just terrible.
And it was like a, Course
for postpartum moms.
And she was crying in her stories.
And I was like, I feel
really bad for this girl.
And I reached out, I was
like, can I help you?
Can I help you sell her course?
And she's I don't have any money.
I'm like, I don't want your money.
Can I just help you?
And we're going to help each other.
I'm going to help you make money and I'm
going to learn from you as I coach you.
So I had a few of those people.
It's so fun.
She's making six figures now, but
Mark Butler: How did you know, how were
you confident, you're a confident person.
That doesn't surprise me.
But how were you confident to reach out to
her to talk to her about online marketing?
Had you done?
Kristen Boss: Yeah.
I mean, I had done, well, because I
had experienced network marketing.
So I understood this is how you talk
to an audience, but also I'm the weirdo
that was reading marketing books for fun.
Okay.
Yeah.
So for me, I was like, but also because
I was a hairstylist for 15 years,
you understand human psychology.
Like when you hear people verbally
processing how they think, how
they feel, how they make decisions.
I'm a very
I read people very well, so I could
see how her messaging wasn't relating
on a human psychological level.
And I'm like, listen.
I'm bored reading your stuff.
This is why it's not resonating.
Let me help you.
So yeah,
Mark Butler: that's, I did not
know that you'd been, , I knew
you'd been a hairstylist, a
hair person for a long time.
I didn't know that you had an
interest in marketing that predated
your launch into your business.
Kristen Boss: Yes.
And I think that is
what was a helping hand.
Why it grew so fast.
Part of it.
There's a few, there's
a few factors there.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
A few factors.
So you work with these
people for free for a while.
You're developing your concept.
Are you starting to publish
content in this season?
Kristen Boss: Oh yeah.
I'm already, I'm just sharing content.
There was a season where I was getting
really good at creating content
just because I enjoyed social media.
I was figuring it out.
I was following some people.
And so when I was in network marketing,
it was like, tired mom, brand and
like people could scroll back on my
Instagram and watch the evolution.
And yeah, I was just and then I
remember I made the pivot being
like, I want to talk about mindset
and I want to talk about marketing.
So I just started sharing
content Hey, here's why people
aren't paying attention to you.
Hey, here's what you could do differently.
And people started to resonate.
But no one was really, I would get
a lot of you're so inspiring, but
no one I want to work with you.
It took a like four to six months for
people to be like, Hey, can you help
me, can you help me look at this?
So I was like helping
people for, for free.
And then I think I started like
low cost, a hundred dollar.
as you want sessions, like
90 minute sessions where I
would give you some strategy.
So I did that for a while.
And then when I built the confidence
where I'm like, I have the proof
of concept, I know it works.
That was when I put together my
first six month, 5, 000 weekly
coaching with me for six months.
And that was my first paid coaching.
Mark Butler: Was all your content on
Instagram or were you actually started
Kristen Boss: on Facebook?
I started on Facebook and I grew
a Facebook group that was a
niched group for online business.
And I just talked about it in there.
So I did a monthly workshop in there and
was like , Hey, apply to work with me.
If you like this, work with me.
So that was my funnel.
That was how I made my
first like 300 K I think.
What?
Mark Butler: I don't know.
I don't know any of this.
Okay.
So You were posting on Facebook and
then from your post on Facebook people
are landing in a Facebook group?
Kristen Boss: I would just I
would talk about a problem and be
like, hey this resonates with You
should be over in my Facebook
group where I talk more about this.
So it's kind of using my personal
feed That's like a funnel being
like, Hey, hang over in this group.
And anytime I was going to do a workshop,
I'd be like, Hey, I'm doing this workshop.
I'm going to serve you in this way.
If you want to be a part of the
workshop, it's over in this group.
So I was trickling people over
and I was networking in groups
and Networking in groups, other
Mark Butler: groups.
Kristen Boss: Yep.
And other Facebook groups, but just being
a person of value, like just answering
questions, not pitching myself, just
being like, Hey, have you tried this?
Hey, have you tried this?
It's amazing what happens when you
decide to just be a person of value.
Go figure.
Mark Butler: How much were
you, if you remember, how often
were you posting on Facebook?
Were you
Kristen Boss: I think every day.
Every day.
Five days a week.
Mark Butler: Was it video?
Was it just
Kristen Boss: It was
a lot of still images.
And I would say this is before,
I'm going to call it, and maybe
it's not a fair thing to say,
but I feel like this is before we
had an oversaturation of coaches.
On the Facebook space, applying
the same principles where I was,
I had this is where's my book.
I read Ray Edwards,
, copywriting, pro book in 2019.
And I did something radical.
He did the copywriting for email
marketing and for paid ads.
But I took the principles of copywriting.
I was like, well, if I could just apply
the same principles to organic marketing.
Just how I post on my
socials, this'll work.
But that was before other people
were doing that and teaching that.
So I was getting great traction.
Yeah.
Mark Butler: Okay.
Super interesting.
So you're posting daily.
You're applying marketing principles
in the content that you're producing.
You're networking groups.
You're being a person of value.
Define, define a person
of value by its opposite.
What's the opposite of a person
of value in that context?
Kristen Boss: Person of need.
Somebody that's coming with
need, , Gary Vanderchuk has this
thing where he calls it like, the
jab hook, it's like the give ask.
The opposite of that's a person of value.
The opposite, a person
of need, is ask, give.
Ask, give.
And so it's like you're
constantly pitching, selling.
For me, it was just like a person
that's not a value is it's very,
actually, it's very transactional minded.
They're very much
thinking, I make a post.
What do I get out of this post?
They struggle to zoom out and see the
holistic picture of relational marketing.
And it's very much if I do 10 posts,,
eight out of the 10 should look like
this and this post should yield this.
It's like they're more formulaic
and less holistic and relational.
Mark Butler: You wouldn't consider your
approach formulaic back then or ever.
Kristen Boss: I still
don't, I still don't.
Yeah.
Mark Butler: Fascinating.
So you experienced growth
on Facebook primarily.
And then after a season of growing
that audience, you said how long
passed before you made a multi
thousand dollar group offering.
Kristen Boss: Okay.
So when I made that,
I'll never forget this.
So I was like helping
people for cheap or free.
And then in August of 2019 is when
I launched, I'll never forget it.
I think it was called like,
gosh, what was it called?
It was either burnout to boss babe.
No.
It was called reset and reclaim speaking
to people who were feeling burnt out
in their business and how to reclaim.
It was like, so cliche jargon.
I look back and I still laugh and
Mark Butler: burnout to boss
babe is that's all time.
Oh, that was my
Kristen Boss: first one.
It was my burnout to boss
babe Academy for eight.
Mark Butler: It's so good.
Oh, I love the boss.
Babe is anyway, that's amazing.
Kristen Boss: So it was
like the reset and reclaim.
I might still have the printout somewhere.
And this was when I was still doing hair.
And the only time I could go live
was I think it was like 6 AM.
So I went live at 6 AM
in this Facebook group.
I'll never forget.
I think I'm still wearing, I
think I wore my PJs and I was
like, come on, I'm going to do it.
Yeah.
And I made like a five, I made
a really robust work workbook.
And I was like, I'm gonna do
an hour training each day.
And here's the workbook.
And I think I got 250 people to
that group just from promoting
organically on my socials and
actually, Oh no, I know how I did this.
I did a call on my Facebook.
I said, are you burnt out,
tired, exhausted, and whatever?
So put out like a pain call
to be like, who's in pain?
And I said, I'm doing
this special project.
I don't know if it could work still today
because people have done it a lot now.
If that's you know, message me.
And I actually got on a call with,
I got on a phone with 30 people.
And I interviewed them through
a questionnaire and I asked
them, what have you tried?
What's frustrating?
What do you need?
And so after interviewing 30 people,
I put together okay, I now have
a concept of what I'm gonna do
for this workshop, 250 people.
And I'll have a picture of me.
Posted in front of my mirror
saying, and this is it, this is my
actually first one to many offered.
Now I totally forgot about this.
It was like eight weeks, six weeks for 4.
99.
So six weeks for, it wasn't 4.
99.
It was 2.
99.
And I have this little note on
my mirror and a dry erase marker.
Congrats on your first 20, 000 launch.
And so how many spots is that
me thinking I was going to sell?
Like 299 wait, 20, 000 divided by 299.
Okay.
I thought it was going to sell
65 spots out of the 250 people.
Mind you, never done a webinar, never
pitched to a group before, but Hey, I'm
believing I'm going to manifest 20, 000.
I was really into the
manifesting language at the time.
That's a whole nother conversation.
So then I was like, I have this little
picture of me and I had, so I did
this thing, got up at 6am every day.
Five big old robust workbook made
a call and be like, let's do this.
I'm like 20 K and this is it's coming.
And five people bought two of
them were my close friends.
One was my sister, but here's what I did.
And I maybe six people bought
and then three were close
friends or something like that.
And I was like, and my
ego took a real hit.
It was like, well, I made 1, 600,
not quite 20, 000, but I decided
I'm going to see this through.
I'm going to coach these people.
I could have chosen to refund and
be like, let's try that again.
I was like, no, I'm
going to see him through.
I did it.
And then that was when, so that group
that I launched that five day in is
when I created content for that group
consistently starting in August.
So August, September, October,
I'm still doing training.
I'm dropping value in there.
December is when I decide to offer.
I do a, I did a holiday hot leads
workshop and I'm like, I'm going to
show you how to get your next 100 leads
over the holidays and whatever else.
And Did that and then I made
my first offer like to work
with me 5k for six months.
I think I got 40 discovery calls and
That meant and my goal was 20k and I was
like I just need four people to say yes
to me out of 40 and I got five people to
say yes And it blew my mind and we went
and bought a TV at Costco the next day
I was like, so yeah, and then I kept in
that Facebook group and then I kept doing
that like the rinse and repeat month
workshop once a month, getting people
to the group, incentivizing people to
come to the group selling one on one.
And then I think I closed the
group when I launched the social
selling Academy later that August.
But but yeah, that I
just kind of kept that.
And I would say I made my first, yeah,
like 300, 400 K from that Facebook group.
Mark Butler: And it had, when you made
that first 5, 000 offer, there were a
few hundred people in the Facebook group?
Kristen Boss: Like 400,
400 people, I think.
Mark Butler: But I missed,
where did you offer the 2.
99 thing?
Was that just like on a Facebook live?
Kristen Boss: That was in the
reset and reclaim five day
workshop in the Facebook group.
That was what I offered
on the back end of that.
Mark Butler: How much time passed between
the 299 offer and the 5, 000 offer?
You might have said.
Kristen Boss: About 90 days.
About 90 days.
Mark Butler: Fascinating.
Okay.
And then from there we know
, there's, , kind of a meteoric rise.
Now we're into 2020, which was as crazy
in the network marketing world as it was.
Kristen Boss: In the coaching world.
In the
Mark Butler: coaching world.
I wonder if people know, I think
people know, but I wonder if
people know what a boon COVID was.
to online business.
Kristen Boss: If they
didn't know, they know now.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
Kristen Boss: They know now because we're
dealing with a market correction now.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
Kristen Boss: I think I, I've likened it
to the when the housing bubble burst.
I feel like we're having the online
we're having a little bit of that.
It's happening in the
network marketing industry.
There's a massive market
correction happening.
There's a market correction happening
with the demand for coaching.
I think there still is
a demand for coaching.
I think the demand for good
coaches is higher than ever.
I think we're just weeding out the
money grabbers from like the people that
truly want to serve and have talent.
Another conversation for another time, but
Mark Butler: yeah.
Yeah.
Kristen Boss: Or we can
have that conversation.
Mark Butler: As you know, I do accounting
for a bunch of coaches, the place where
I've seen demand shrink not to zero,
but not far from zero is the demand for
multi thousand dollar group experiences.
In other words, the thing that you
sold that we're just talking about.
Kristen Boss: Oh yeah.
Mark Butler: I don't see those
being purchased these days.
Kristen Boss: No, I think it's
because people I think people
want more for their money.
I think the one on one That's doing great.
I think there's still like value there.
It's still the high attention, the
high touch, but the group factor.
It's either super scaled in a
program level where there's, or high
touch one on one is my thought.
It's almost like the middle class offer.
It's gone.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
There's
Kristen Boss: just there's like
offer disparity happening now,
even stronger offer disparity.
Mark Butler: Oh, that's
pretty insightful, actually.
That's super interesting.
So I want to, where I think
you have amazing insight.
You have a lot of insight to offer
in a lot of areas, but I want to
talk about this adrenaline fueled
launching and you're to whatever
degree you're comfortable sharing.
Kristen Boss: Oh, I'm
Mark Butler: pretty vulnerable.
I can share it, man.
We started working together.
I don't even remember exactly when, but.
It was in the season in which you,
we can cut this out if you, cause I
don't know what you want to do with
numbers, but it wasn't the season in
which you were probably having your
first like seven figure launches.
Kristen Boss: It was, I was going to
say I had my first, I'll never forget,
I had my first seven figure launch.
And that was when I was like, I
talked to Mark, but that was when
I brought you on for numbers.
But really you just served on a
much better level than just numbers.
Mark Butler: Talk about your
psychology, your mindset leading up
to And then going through and then
after generating a million dollars
in sales in a very tight time window.
Kristen Boss: You know, it's interesting.
, the coach that I was working with at
the time wouldn't let me have this
thought or experience, but it was
my experience of what was happening.
It was like, it felt like
it was happening to me.
Because I didn't set out to
have a million dollar launch.
Like my brain didn't even
know that was possible.
It's just.
Was it did like I had so so it was
just kind of like it blew my mind It
was like it was a surprise and maybe
that's unfair to say but that was
my experience of It was just like
alright, I'm gonna do this again.
I'll never forget my first multi six
figure launch and my nervous system
actually collapsed That was my first
ever panic attack and it was I did
a three day training at the end of
the year I'm like, well, I've already
hit my income goal for the year.
But you know, it'd be really fun to
do a year end goal and I'll just sell
the Academy and we'll see what happens.
And I'll never forget my COO was like,
Hey, how many workbooks should we order?
I was like, I don't know.
30 seems like a lot.
Let's do 30.
And at the end of that,
we had 250 people join.
It was a 250, 000 lunch
because it was a 1, 000 offer.
And I couldn't breathe when
I was in bed that night.
Like it felt like an elephant had
sat down on my chest and really it
was because I went from having, I
think 60 people in a program, in the
program to now 315 or however many.
And what happened was my
perception of control.
Was ripped out from me overnight being
like there because I think with 70 people
I had the at least psychological Delusion
I'm thinking there was enough of me to
still go around still touch enough people
to ensure they had results Baby, then
make sure they're okay, but then suddenly
having 250 people on board overnight.
It was like my nervous system
was like, Oh my gosh, what
if they all ask for a refund?
What if I can't help them all?
Does this actually work in volume?
Does this actually work if I
can't give them all high touch?
So it was very scary.
And then we started seeing a
lot of people with results.
I'm like, okay, great.
So in may we did this other
event, another three day event.
It was a thousand dollars.
And I knew the program was worth 2000.
I was like, well, we're
going to increase in June.
So I just announced it.
I was like, Hey, come to this.
I'm going to do this.
I think we had 5, 000 people
come to the live training.
And I think I thought, man, it'd be really
cool to do 250 again, but I don't know.
Well, I think it was 893 people.
joint.
And then the next month we were like,
all right, the social line Academy
is going to go up to 2, 000 by the
end of this month, jump in while you
can and another 400 people joined.
So in a four week period, I made 1.
2 mil or 1.
3 mil.
I just remember it being
like, holy crap, this is wow.
It felt like winning the lottery.
It didn't feel like you know,
it wasn't like, The goal is 800.
It was just like, let's see what happens.
Then the psychological
game really happens.
So there's adrenaline and, I'm
not gonna even, is it adrenaline?
It's excitement.
And then, I wanna say, I had a massive
adrenaline hangover, and then there was
the I remember I I, do you remember
when I had drama buying a purse, buying
my first designer purse after that 1.
3 million dollars and you're like, I
mean, do you want me to coach you on this?
But it was like, I had this like
thought because it felt lucky.
I felt like my luck would run out and
I felt like I was on borrowed time.
So I was like, I can't buy a designer
purse because this could all go away.
I don't know.
So, I really operated within this
is one big giant fluke for a while.
And then that Christmas, because I was,
I did these launches six months apart,
so I would have this massive surge of
insane amount of dopamine and adrenaline
and ride that for a while and then it
starts to deplete and then your thoughts
start going to What if it all runs out?
That's it.
I, and you talked about this in that
podcast episode of the auditorium.
Like what if the auditorium is
completely empty and I have no one
to sell to, no one's going to buy.
I kept waiting to hit
the bottom of the well.
I'm like, the well's going to run dry.
So that thought it was like I was
creating my own very scarce adrenaline.
Strike while the iron's hot.
Keep going while I can.
And I have this deep fear of
becoming irrelevant in the world.
And so, you add that to
the well is gonna run dry.
And so, you just have me
as like a , launch junkie.
I'll never forget wh What I needed
to work on is that December,
it was now a 2, 000 offer.
I'd never sold the 2000.
I had evidence that it would
sell 900 people at a thousand and
we're coming up on this launch.
And I remember my thoughts very clearly.
It was like, I don't think
at this point there was a
pressure yet with the launches.
I think I was still gamifying it in my
mind and therefore it was still fun.
So I was like,.
It's double the price.
If I can get, not the people
to enroll this time, 400
people, that'd be really cool.
So I was kind of in like the,
that'd be really cool mentality.
At this point, my team
is still fairly lean.
There's not massive operational
expenses at this point.
So everything is just gravy.
At least it feels that way.
So then that was the year where
I was like, I did so much mindset
with myself with like, all right,
I was selling 2, 000 just as good.
And then we had, I think we
had the same amount of people.
So this is I believe, right around
the market correction turning point
and right around when iOS 14 software
started changing the game with ads.
And so and we would put a lot of
money into ads and it would be great.
Blah, blah.
I'd get I think we had 15, 000
people come to that live event.
I've still never seen
that many people since.
And that event was a 1.
3 million dollar event.
I think that is when I
started feeling deeply unsafe.
And launches felt like, again,
it, I was, my goal was 400.
We did 800.
So again, it's exceeded my expectations,
flood of adrenaline, flood of this.
And that is when I think my mental
health really started to suffer.
After that launch.
And then it started to become, I can only
feel safe and you would notice this as
you were coaching me I would start to
develop, I'd feel good for a while until
about 90 days leading up to the launch.
And then I'd start to feel
very anxious, very scared.
What if I can't do it the same?
A lot of pressure.
And
it was like I was holding my breath and I
like, and no matter how, like you coached
me well, but I had a nervous system
that was conditioned to only believe
it was okay after a successful launch..
You mentioned it like a junkie and
I don't think you're wrong in it.
I talked to my therapist about this, about
there's a ritualization that happens
with addiction and that was absolutely
what was happening with my launches.
There would be this ritualization that I
didn't even know it was happening until
I've been forced to detox from this.
But it's like the, my ritualization
was playing with numbers and I
think you called me on this once and
you're like, remember, you're like,
you just like to play with numbers.
Sorry to laugh, but
Mark Butler: I would, you know, when
we'd, oh, it's weird to talk to a client
about their sessions in a public forum.
I'm feeling really like hesitant
to do it, but I appreciate
Kristen Boss: you.
I'm giving you permission because I'm how
Mark Butler: open you're being.
It was so hard.
To watch and I it's funny because as
you're talking now, I'm feeling don't
worry I'm not gonna burst into tears
or something But i'm feeling like i'm
feeling emotional about the fact that
it was really hard to watch and we
would coach together and I would say
Hey this thing where you loop on the
spreadsheet the mental spreadsheet
where I could watch you shifting numbers
around a spreadsheet in your mind
constantly in this Kind of frantic loop.
It was hard to watch and we would
talk about it You were always a
great client and you would get these
moments of like I it's like I could
watch Literally and metaphorically
I could watch your shoulders relax.
It seemed like it would
last not long Hours?
Days?
Kristen Boss: Maybe days.
Maybe.
And that was just how my nervous system,
it was like what my brain was just
seeking safety and we talked about
this, like the only way I could seek
safety was in numbers that I could
predict in my mind or spreadsheets or,
and I would strategize to feel better.
I would just sit there and strategize
and being like, okay, if I can
get this and then the conversion
rate of this, and then we do this.
And again it was It was a
compulsion, but really it was just
my nervous system trying to find a
way to regulate and I had not yet
taught my nervous system how to do so.
And so then it would
be like, I'm not safe.
I'm not safe.
I'm not safe.
Spiral, spiral, spiral,
ritualize launch performed.
And only because the launch performed
can I believe I'm safe in the world.
And so then I'd relax
and be like, it's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay.
And the window of feeling
okay started to shrink.
It used to last me like five months
and then it was 90 days and it
was 60 days and it was 48 hours
the fix wasn't fixing anymore.
Mark Butler: I don't remember exactly,
but the episode you heard me talking
about, my sort of anti launching
episode, it wasn't just about you
Kristen Boss: because
Mark Butler: I've had this
experience with so many.
clients, but it might've even
been recorded on the heels
of one of our coaching calls.
I don't remember.
I wouldn't be
Kristen Boss: surprised.
I'm like, I think I was
Mark Butler: mad.
I think I was just like,
this is, I wasn't mad at you.
I was like, this is
Kristen Boss: intervention
Mark Butler: is lie.
This lie is killing
people that I care about.
And that's dramatic, but
it felt kind of true.
But one of the, one of the things that
was hard to watch you go through was that.
You just said, the launch would perform,
but the feeling of safety wouldn't last
very long after the performing launch.
My memory of it is the launch would
perform, but with after the launch at
the first 2, 000 price point, even though
launches after that still brought in.
A lot of new people and a lot of
money from that point, they didn't,
they started to not reach the numbers
that you had expected or hoped
for, or envisioned in your mind.
And that's where I start started
to see the toll, really the mental
emotional cost really increased
because it's this crazy phenomenon.
These are made up numbers, but if you
watch somebody bring in 500, 000 in
48 hours, but they thought they were
going to bring in 700, 000 in 48 hours,
Suddenly 500, 000 feels dangerous.
It's this safety danger
thing that you, I think, are
articulating really beautifully.
So to watch somebody bring in
half a million dollars, but feel
even less safe having done it.
Kristen Boss: Yes.
Mark Butler: Brutally difficult to watch.
Kristen Boss: Well, and then, but what was
also happening, what was creeping up at
the same time was I was growing my team.
I was Yes.
So now I have operational
expenses creeping up.
And so now it's like a, it went from
the launches being like, wouldn't it
just be a delight for us to make this?
Now it's we have to make at least
this so I can pay for this company.
And that is when I started
deeply resenting this.
Thing that I built because it
just was like, it felt like it
was just robbing me of so much.
Last year I still had
another insane launch.
I'm launching my new offer.
Yeah,
Mark Butler: such a good offer.
Kristen Boss: I'm still
proud of that offer.
And that was my biggest
launch ever to date.
That was my 2.
3 million launch.
Mark Butler: Let's pause
for one second there.
I don't want you to lose that train
of thought, but I want to tell
people how I think that happened.
Kristen Boss: Oh, yeah.
We can talk about that for sure.
Mark Butler: Because I think
what happened there was, it's the
same principle of pent up demand.
Kristen Boss: It was.
Stored up demand.
Mark Butler: You had created this demand
and then you'd launched and launched
different offers very successfully.
But the trust that you had in this large
community was still as strong as ever.
And as soon as there was a new
compelling offer to make to the larger
community where the trust was still
present, maybe stronger than ever.
Kristen Boss: Yes.
Mark Butler: That's the auditorium being
not only full, but it's the, it's a
bigger auditorium and completely full.
And then you launch the new offer.
Kristen Boss: To my raving fans.
Yeah.
It wasn't to a cold market.
It was to my existing students
and it was an Ascension offer.
Mark Butler: Yes.
So in a sneaky way it's just
the same thing happening again.
Kristen Boss: Yes.
Yes.
Mark Butler: But people in your
position, very understandably, I
think, sometimes don't view it as the
same thing that happened the first
time they launched successfully.
They view it as, yep,
this is just what we do.
We're
Kristen Boss: going to do
Mark Butler: it today, and then we're
going to do it 90 days from now, and
we're going to do it 90 days after that.
But the auditorium did empty.
Kristen Boss: Yep.
And I think I had awareness
from that last summer.
I feel like I was way less naive, like
now it was an insane emotional high.
Yep.
And I was able to go off, go on to a
sabbatical after that and I got some rest.
But I knew, I had cashed in or
monetized on stored up demand and
the auditorium was likely empty.
And the following launches have
proven that it is not even close.
And my good friend Pete Vargas
was like, Oh, Kristen, this
is the new offer phenomenon.
You'll never see.
money like you do with a new
offer to a diehard audience.
, you'll never repeat it.
And I was like, all right,
you know, thank you.
But this is when maybe it was fall
of last year when I was sensing,
I was watching my industry.
I was shifting.
I was noticing things in the industry.
I was noticing things on our ads.
And that is when I, and
I'll never forget this.
It was summer of last year when I decided
I have to get off this rollercoaster,
this horribly toxic launch rollercoaster.
And I can't believe I'm going to
say this, but the best thing that
ever happened to me this year was
a failed launch because I'm shocked
to say this, but here's the thing.
So long as the launches kept launching,
so to speak, there was, I never
felt the pressure to actually fix
it and change my business model.
Because the cash infusion would
just put a band aid on the thing
that was actually hemorrhaging.
Where it was just like, no, what the
most, I would so much rather have
monthly recurring revenue that's
automated through how we serve
and how we utilize our content.
And this is the big shift we're
making and the shift that I think
the industry is about to do as well.
So I was like, I have to get off this
horrible rollercoaster, but it was always
like, yeah, I should stop launching.
That'd be nice.
But then I'd launch and then, you
know, all the cash would come in and
it wouldn't be an emergency anymore.
I'm like, someday we'll stop launching.
And it was this year, you know,
spending an obscene amount of money
at my live event and the launch
not going in the way I thought.
And there was a lot that went behind
that, but that is what finally
forced me to be like, All right,
we have to change our business.
And I'm literally rebuilding my
business from the ground up to get us
out of a launch based business model.
And it is the hardest
thing I've ever done.
And you and I have talked about this,
where it's I am detoxing so hard from
the adrenaline, dopamine, cortisol
rollercoaster that I was on and
, It's amazing I'm not a fat alcoholic.
Because you take a substance,
and mine was launches, and you take
it away from somebody that that
is how they feel safe in the world.
We tend to run to other coping mechanisms.
Right.
And I've been on a health journey.
And so I'm still, I'm walking, I'm
counting my macros or whatever.
And I've decided to not drink and
I'm like, what a time to be sober.
This is awful.
All the feelings, like I'm not getting
my fix from my launches anymore.
If, you know, to be totally
transparent because we're having
to rebuild our business, we're
having to lean out our machine.
And thankfully because We didn't
increase our lifestyle to match what
our top cash flow seasons were doing.
My husband was very conservative
and we put a lot of money away.
And so, it's given our
business , a long enough on ramp.
to sustain and survive while
we are rebuilding the machine.
And it is taking so much patience.
There is no dopamine happening here.
There is I'm having to find dopamine
everywhere else in my life, but my
business, who'd have thought, but it's
probably the best thing I could do.
And I even told you that I think I
shared this in one of our sessions when
my therapist said only, Those of us
that are lucky and fortunate enough to
eventually have our systems fail us so
that we do our real work in the world.
And so my system failed me.
This longed addiction that brought
me high highs and the lowest lows.
I'm glad I'm off it.
, I think I'm still detoxing, but I'm
having to like, I'll give you an example.
We have a 1.
97 offer right now.
And we've talked to you about this.
I'm celebrating the hell
out of 250 people joining.
I'm like, this is amazing.
40 K.
Yeah.
You know, I'm celebrating when we're in
the red by only 10 K instead of a hundred
K instead of a hundred K launches.
I'm like, but we're not a hundred K loss.
Woo hoo.
Look, we have eight months of runway to
rebuild this instead of three months.
And so it's a season
of, maybe business maturity.
You know and learning that and
I told you that one of my mentors,
John, who works for me, said this
was like, Kristen, I was like,
Oh, my self concept is so shaken.
I used to be so good
at selling everything.
Everything I touched turned to gold.
And he's well, maybe you were just good
at selling when everyone was buying.
Maybe you're not, you're
like, he said that to you.
I'm like, yeah, it's so
Mark Butler: good.
Okay.
That's
Kristen Boss: I have to surround
my people, myself with people that
are willing to tell me the truth.
I don't want people blowing smoke up my
butt and telling me what I want to hear.
And do you remember when I, when we first
started working, I told you, I wanted to
have a board of character advisors, people
that cared more about my character than
about what was happening with my business.
I got people saying hard
things to me in my life.
Mark Butler: Well, I
wondered in the moment.
And since then I've wondered when you had
the launch that it's funny because by
the way, folks, the launch that failed,
Kristen Boss: Yeah.
Mark Butler: It didn't.
Kristen Boss: With a, with
a 500, 000 live event, right?
Yeah.
And actually it didn't break even.
We were so profitable.
Mark Butler: Oh, so there's a little bit
of profit but it's such an important
story because the failure was, as is
always the case, entirely perceived.
Kristen Boss: Correct.
Mark Butler: It was just
perceived, but I was so, we had
coached on the way into that.
you were giving me no signals
whatsoever that it was going
to go the way that you hoped.
And so I was waiting for
it to disappoint you.
I don't think I told you this.
And then when it did, I was so relieved.
Kristen Boss: I know.
Mark Butler: And I remember that.
Were you, because you reached out
to me after that and we talked and
I said, I'm so glad this happened.
Kristen Boss: I remember.
I remember.
I remember.
Yes.
I was.
I'm mad.
Yeah.
No, not at all.
Because I knew Mark.
Cause I knew I had to face
the thing I was most afraid of.
And I was most afraid of a launch that
had fallen so far beneath my expectations
that I would perceive it as a failure.
And
I knew on our next call, I was
like, Mark's going to be glad
that the launch didn't rescue me.
From.
The work, the real work I had to
do because that was the problem.
So long as the launch met my expectations,
it kept me from having to do the work.
So I'll never forget.
It was the morning after my
event and I man, I like chest
heaving, sobs, just ugly cried.
And I remember my husband
being like, what do you need?
I was like, What I need is to feel all
of this because this feeling I'm feeling
now is the thing I've been running
from every single launch And I actually
have to know that it's not killing me.
It feels absolutely
horrible It felt so bad.
And I just had to remind myself
like, all right, we're experiencing
really intense physical sensations.
This is known as grief and
disappointment and shock and
anger and embarrassment and shame.
Like I just had to process so many
emotions that I had been running from
every single launch where it was like,
once the launch performed, it was like,
whoo, I don't have to feel those things.
And now it's okay.
But I.
And I had that moment where I'm
like, I sat with myself, I am facing
the thing I was most afraid of.
And I knew that was my work.
So when you're like, I'm so relieved.
I'm like, I knew you would be.
I wasn't mad.
I was like, of course you would be.
That's why I hired you.
Mark Butler: Well, there's I really
am grateful that you would share that
because Not a lot of people are going
to experience the thing you experienced,
the way you experienced it, because
they're not going to have ever a 2.
3 million launch.
I don't think I'll ever in
my business life do that.
But there's a universality to
your experience because the
pain of unmet expectations.
And the shock to our
psyche and to our identity.
I know you experienced with the people
that you serve, but watching coaches or
watching people even make little tiny
offers or have little tiny successes
and have it not go the way they hoped.
And to see that just sort of break them
Kristen Boss: and
Mark Butler: cause them to stop.
It's the same thing.
Your situation is in some ways.
In my opinion, more difficult
because the thing you were doing
invites so much external validation.
Kristen Boss: Oh,
Mark Butler: that just compounds
the difficulty of it all.
Whereas if I'm that new coach and I
asked someone if they'll do a coaching
session with me and they say no, that
I don't, the come down off of that
or the disappointment from that is,
is frankly nothing like I made 2.
3 million this time.
And the next time I make.
And everyone tells me how smart I
am and everyone tells me how great
I am and everyone it's this sort
of perpetual standing ovation.
Kristen Boss: Oh, yeah.
Mark Butler: And then it's gone.
It's not gone.
But
Kristen Boss: Yeah, it's just
when you having to find my worth.
I know it sounds so cliche, but having
to find my worth outside of my launch
worth, my business worth, my productivity
worth is, you know, it's the good work.
It's the hard work, but
I'm glad it's the work.
But I always there's that
phenomenon with this is what
happens with musicians and actors.
Like they get the, you're only
as good as your last film.
You're only as good as your last Oscar.
I can't imagine the pressure that maybe
Taylor Swift feels with Like her next
release she she's almost created the
self concept that she can never fail.
I'm pretty sure she's in Enneagram
three and I'm just like, Oh God, I
just don't, I don't envy, I don't
envy the immense pressure that she
probably psychologically feels herself
of okay the next best song, the next
best album, the next best chart topper,
the next best tour, the next best, I'm
like dear Lord, you know it's hard.
So
Mark Butler: it's hard, but you've, I
was going to say you've come through it.
And maybe that, maybe
we don't know that yet.
I'm pretty confident.
The reason I was, the reason I was
relieved to have it the old world view
finally get broken was because, and I've
told you this and I've said this on the
podcast and I'll continue to say it.
I think that there are people like
you, like other clients who I've
mentioned on the podcast who are
leaders, they're movers of people.
And I.
I can't have the people movers.
I can't have the leaders.
Stop leading or moving.
So because that's what you do and
People like you, if they're caught
up in this this junkie cycle of
launching and whatever, that it
makes you fragile for the work that I
actually hope you'll do in the world.
But you've come through it
now and I'm watching you.
And even just yesterday we were on
our call and I haven't told, I didn't
tell you this in the moment, but when
you were describing your 197 offer
and what you teach in that, I was
just thinking, oh that's timeless.
Universally applicable.
And I was going to say to you, I was
like, Oh, I would, I want to tell new
coaches to go through that program.
Kristen Boss: Oh, they probably
could and see fantastic results.
Mark Butler: And I and I mean it
because there's the way you were
describing people's first days and
weeks in their new project, whether
it's coaching or it's a network
marketing business, I was thinking.
You've made systematic the
pieces that everyone has to,
and I'm looking to leaders like you
to keep doing that for people, but
outside of that adrenaline fueled
cycle and more just as a like a
day job, like this is what we do.
We show up, we teach people correct
principles that are timeless.
We inspire them to take action.
We support them when they're struggling
and repeat and repeat forever.
And it will help.
So I've never worried.
Never one day worried that
you were going to really fail,
whatever that would even mean.
I just wanted to see you get out of
the launch chaos because I viewed it
as the only obstacle to your long term
ability to help people in the way that
you are capable of helping people.
Kristen Boss: Oh, I fully agree with you.
, it's interesting having to rebuild
this machine and ensuring we have
enough, you know, we have a runway.
And I remember when I told you, I
was like, hey, you know when we're
told that we can, our company can
operate at a loss for X number of
months and for quite some time.
You know, I'm, it's funny.
Because of cash
Mark Butler: reserves, you mean?
Kristen Boss: Yeah.
It's a weird thing to be proud of, but
I'm like, I'm really proud that we've,
A, leaned out our business, made some
different decisions and that we have
bought enough time to write the ship.
Because we kept money in our business
and we're rebuilding and someone's
like, how long do you think it is?
I was like, I, you know it's probably
a six month to year long project.
So it's interesting because I'm
launching gives you that dopamine hit.
And I'm like, again, I'm having to
find dopamine and other places of
my life and business is the place
where I'm like, it's interesting.
It's where I'm coming to work.
It's not where I'm coming to get worth.
Whereas like now it's the opposite
and this is still my work and
it's going to be hard and but
it's, yeah, it's been a ride.
Mark Butler: Can I ask you a lot
Kristen Boss: of it?
Mark Butler: You've been really
generous with your time today.
I want to ask you a last
question and I hope it's a
short enough question to answer.
Knowing what you now know and experiencing
what you've experienced,, would you say
that you are just black and white against?
A launch based model, or do you see a way
that launching can be done in a way that.
The person who's launching can still
have mental and emotional health and
success and create value and et cetera.
Or because I tend to be very dogmatic
anti launching but I hold that loosely
because I don't think I'm right.
Go ahead.
Kristen Boss: So I'm moving into a
hybrid is so I'm still going to be
doing my three days, but what we're
doing is we're creating profitability
between the launches where there
are avenues to nurture support.
And care for people between the launches.
Cause before it was like, I would have
this three day event, very intense.
You pay me 9 send you a 2, 000 offer.
And then if not you, they'd kind of bounce
around with my podcast with, you know,
those things., and what I noticed was.
Yeah.
There, there was unnecessary
struggle and hurt and pain
happening between the launches.
So I'm like, well, how do I bridge this?
So the 197 offer is the bridge offer where
it's like, all right, instead of, you
know, asking them to suspend their belief.
in their ability to make
money with this business.
I'm going to prove to them that they
can make money in this business,
help them make money in this
business with a very accessible
offer of 197 in there for 90 days.
And then they could choose to
ascend to our 2, 000 offer.
It's going to be different.
It's going to be 1, 497.
Ascend to that.
And then where we're nurturing
them between,, and we're opening
enrollment, you know, once a month.
It's more of a hybrid.
So I'm going to call like our
launches are going to be more
gravy than bread and butter.
So we're building a bread and butter
machine with launches being like a
community fun aspect, getting back to
what I, how it used to feel for me of
this is fun, whatever, like whatever
we can get from this, that's fantastic.
But what I'm trying to solve for right
now is like, how do I have all of my,
Operational expenses as a business covered
by monthly recurring revenue so that
our launches are just additional gravy.
That's it.
And that could be like
Dividends or whatever, you know,
Mark Butler: yeah, that's really
compelling I have one other client who I
think in the launch episode or in a follow
up I talked about this how and you just
said the same thing She said we actually
believe our launches are pro community.
Kristen Boss: Yeah,
Mark Butler: and
Kristen Boss: Yes,
Mark Butler: pro brand and there's
great energy in them and that if we were
to stop launching something Important
would be lost from the community
Kristen Boss: Yes.
Mark Butler: So, and I love that.
It's very, what you've done is you've
essentially given your, you've given
launching a different job in your
life and your business instead of
being pressure filled and being the
thing that has to pay the bills.
We pay the bills other ways, and this
is a way of increasing the positive
energy and the trust and the community
for the people who engage with us.
Kristen Boss: Yeah.
Exactly.
Very
Mark Butler: different approach.
Kristen Boss: Very different.
It even feels different.
I'm like, oh yeah, we're going to do that
at the end of this year, but because
I'm solving for what's happening on
a monthly basis right now there
isn't that pit of dread in my stomach.
Yes.
I mean, there's, I mean, the
pit of dread is more like,
when's this going to work out?
It's not even, maybe not,
and it's not as catastrophic.
It's like we're solving for, and my
husband said this, he's I really like
That we're now in a model where we can
keep solving the problem instead of We
can only solve the problem six months
at a time, like once every six months.
So we can constantly refine
the machine and make it better.
So in some ways I think it's, I think
it serves better to be like, how can I
have a smoothly operated machine where
I'm constantly honing and refining?
Instead of I have to get this one
thing to perform this one time.
So yeah, but I'm also going to be like,
if you don't have to do the one to many,
don't it's over glorified, overhyped.
It's not great.
If I could do it all over,
Mark Butler: I just, you're
just going to drop that at the
end, as I'm about to sign off.
Kristen Boss: We can do part two
conversations, Kristen and Mark.
Kristen telling people.
Don't do it.
Mark Butler: I mean, maybe
that's sufficient right there.
Yes.
The one to many is just
such a different game.
So many more moving parts, but
hearing it from me, people may
believe it, but hearing it from
you, you've been in that war and so,
Kristen Boss: yep.
Mark Butler: i'll probably
link from the show notes.
I would like to send people
into The funnel of the hub.
It's so funny.
I never would say I want to get
people into with this funnel But
when you describe to me what's in the
hub, I thought to myself I should go
through that I think it would really
benefit me You probably should.
You probably love it because the way you
talked about how you structure some of
the early days of a person's business,
I think is really really genius.
So thank you so much for
spending an hour with me.
And this is such generous
use of your time.
And I know that this is going to
be so useful to so many people.
So
Kristen Boss: you're welcome.
Mark Butler: We'll talk to
you on our next coaching call.
Kristen Boss: Yep.
Sounds good.
Thanks, Mark.
Mark Butler: See ya.