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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
The Cost of Performance, with Shae McCowen
00:00
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man Podcast. My name is Jesse French and I say I'm excited to be here. I feel like all the time, but it is true. It is a genuine statement. I'm glad to be joined by my good friend, Cody Buriff as a cohost. Cody, how are you, man? It's good to be here too, man. I always look forward to this. I know when we've got it on our calendar and I anticipate it, I enjoy it. fun. So glad to be here. Me too. And I'm extra glad. I've been looking forward to this conversation because
00:29
We have our, what's your title? Is it chairman board? Yeah. All right. Guys, this is Shae McCowen, our chairman of the board. And the first time I met him, the board of our Restoration Project, right? The first time I met Shae was my first time at any Restoration Project event. It was at Colorado Grove. think it was in the fall of 2020. That sounds right. About four years ago.
00:52
without giving a whole lot away, I'm in this small group with these two other guys and there's this ginormous man who is leading our group. And with his booming voice, I was intimidated, let's put it that way. But over the course of those few days, getting to know Shae and letting him get to know me a little bit, he is a mountain of kindness, which is, you know, what we would use to describe the word kindness as a
01:21
tenderness and a strength. And if there's anybody that deserves that title, it is Shane McCallan. So, Shane, welcome to the podcast. Welcome back. Yes. Thank you so much. And what a kind and generous introduction. I remember sitting on the lawn in front of that house, four chairs sitting around and diving into each other's stories and in such a beautiful location. was.
01:50
incredibly memorable, for sure. Definitely. Say again, welcome back. Thanks for coming back. thank you for having me back. I didn't say anything too irreverent last time that and if you did, that's what as the chairman of the board, you can deal with it. So great position that you're in. Just forward all the emails straight to you. Yeah, perfect. No, it is really fun to have you back.
02:20
As Cody said in the intro, where and when he met you four years ago, just a rich weekend. But I'd love to like begin our conversation even further back than that to you are one of the really handful of men that have been a part of Restoration Project really from the very beginning. And there's not very many of those guys, but you're one of them. so, say, think we have a turn. Love to. It's dinosaur core. It is. Yeah. I'm a member of the dinosaur core. There's not many of us.
02:49
But, you know, yes, I wear that as a badge of honor. I'll just say when I think about Shae as a dinosaur, I think you're a definite like brontosaur. So very much like methodical. I'll take that. So yes. So brontosaur, dinosaur core. Maybe we can just start.
03:09
Take us back a little bit to really that first gathering where Restoration Project was just like shortly after its inception and you were part of that kind of formative gathering and so much you could say from that, but give us a little snapshot and then we'll have to dive in from there. Yeah, perfect. I'll go back even further. So, you know, how I even got to that first one was a co-founder and CEO and grand pooh paw of Restoration Project, Chris Bruno. He was actually my Bible study leader.
03:39
in college. So, and you know, there is a picture floating out. I think Jesse has showed it of me at Chris's wedding when we were both much, much younger than we are now. you know, I been a part of Chris and Beth's ministry and supporting them, you know, in that ministry from literally day one. I, you know, I was.
04:03
probably was in his first group of letters that went out to ask to support him. And I have been supporting him since, you know, the very beginning. so I, you know, obviously kept in touch with him and followed, you know, his career as he went along. And then as he came back to the States and went to Seattle school of theology for his counseling degree, and then was super excited when he told me that he was going to start a men's ministry. I don't think I understood how much.
04:30
I needed something like that and how long it would take me to understand how much I needed something like that. But I knew I had, I knew that men needed a different way and a way to engage better. So Chris invited me to this very first gathering. And so I remember flying in to Denver. He picked me up with Greg Daley, the other co-founder, and we drove up to Laramie, Wyoming, and we stayed at this house that.
04:59
Yeah. It was an eyesight of I 80, uh, and had fields and it had snowed and it was cold. And that first night we gathered and the first exercise was draw your life story on a poster board. was basically the instruction. Draw your life story on a poster board. And I'm like, what are we doing? Like what is happening right now? Cause one, I'm not a good.
05:27
drawer. And so whatever I was going to put on the poster board was going to be illegible or difficult to grasp. But two, like I'd come from a church tradition where we gave our testimony, right? But testimony was kind of a definite, you know, sometimes effective, Lord willing, but other times, you know, maybe not as much. And it was a little too prescriptive. And so that's kind of what I did. Like I basically wrote my testimony on a poster board.
05:57
And even beyond that, like I remember the drive up to Laramie, Greg asked me, so what's your relationship with your father like? And I'm like, it's great. And I've come to understand that there has, there's my favorite word nuance. There's a lot more nuance to that than, maybe I was prepared to engage with. And Greg was like, really? I didn't think that's true. And I'm like, no, it's fine. Like, what are you talking about? And so like the whole weekend was this like.
06:27
starting to touch on things that I really never had considered. And in the meantime, we had so much fun. We played poker, we played cello, there's a guitar and like we drove snowmobiles out in the snow. We threw axes. We had this probably one of the biggest bonfires we've ever made. Like, and so there was, you know, that element of play and experience that ties things together as well. And so, yeah, it was like,
06:57
Okay. Like that was pretty cool. Like I like having something intentional. so starting from that uncomfortable spot of what are we doing to, okay, like I could see us doing that again. And so, yeah, that was my very first experience. My mind quickly goes when you're describing the drawn depiction of your life story. I started thinking about Cody Buriff because I was in a group with him one time where it's a little bit of different exercise, but we had to draw things and the man drew this hummingbird.
07:26
that was like, what was it? was it? Um, done, it. Crawdads. There we go. Yeah. Cody does this. Literally. If you asked me to draw a crawdad today, right now and show it to a hundred people, 99 would get it wrong. It's true. A of ours who maybe listens to this podcast, who I won't out publicly was also in our group. He's a great dude. And he drew one first before Cody drew one.
07:53
And none of us knew what it was. So I'm throwing you under the bus, Jeremiah. And the only reason mine was recognizable was because I copied Cody's and I saw, oh, that's what the crowd looks like. So where I was actually going with this was Shae, maybe unpack a little bit more. I appreciate your articulation around, I was used to sharing my testimony and that felt really familiar, but this invitation was somewhat different.
08:22
Yeah, just take us into a little bit more of that discomfort. Was it a sense of like, what is the point of this or this feels irrelevant? Why like look deeper? Like what, was some of that reluctance then? Yeah, I mean, I think a large part of it was I hadn't done that kind of thing ever before. And I honestly probably didn't know the contours of my life and what had shaped me. And, you know, was right after.
08:50
We had returned from living in India and we had three young kids and you know, like it was just a time where, you know, I was trying to figure my own path out. Right. And so like to try and dive into your own story deeper means that you know how to do that. And certainly we tried and navigated and you this was the early days of Restoration Projects. So some of the language that we're so familiar with now was being
09:20
beta tested, you know, like literally on the spot. so, you know, think the discomfort was my own part of it and not really knowing who I was, but also just, you know, like not understanding why it was even important, right? You know, like, cause again, back to my church tradition that I grew up in, like, as long as you had a good quiet time every day and prayed and went to church every Sunday and.
09:46
gave your testimony when necessary, like that was the mark of a good Christian. And in a lot of ways, those are some elements that can lead to deeper relationship with Jesus and others, but sometimes they don't. so kind of coming to grips, having grown up in that church tradition and then starting to unpack, you know, what does the gospel really mean and who am I as a child of God? And so, yeah, just uncomfortable because I was probably not.
10:14
comfortable in who I was and what that meant. And so then having to dig into that, that's like, Oh, maybe I don't like all the answers that I'm seeing, or maybe probably even more in those early days, like not knowing how to ask the question or what I should be looking for. you're like, there's so much data available and you're like, well, maybe that had an impact. then five years later, you're like, Oh yeah, that had a big impact. just.
10:43
I didn't understand it in the beginning. I appreciate those words because I think that's true. I would say probably for all of us of like the initial invitation toward to look at your life. I love the phrase that you said, the contours of your story. Like I think that puts it well, right? Of like that implies a depth that implies a richness beyond just this linear biography, right? One of the things that we say all the time, which is
11:09
quote from John O'Donohue is that, that biography is not the same as identity. And to tell and look at our lives through a different lens than the biography and look towards identity in the contours of what it's held is, it does feel like a new language. And so I think there is this really understandable and fair kind of reluctance or uncertainty around it of, this feels like a different space altogether that I'm being invited into. so how do I do that? And it's new. And I love that you articulated that way.
11:39
I'd ask now Shae, one of the things that I've appreciated about you is just your honesty around just your arc and what that unfolding of really responding to Jesus's invitation to your story. You've been really honest in, I think, wonderful ways to say like, it's taken years. And so just maybe talk a little bit about that, even, you know, just the timeline and around that. Yeah, that's a great question. mean, it's interesting, you know, going to these groves so many years now and.
12:07
Seeing guys in a four day weekend make what feels like monumental progress in understanding who they are. And, and they just like have these huge kind of openings and ahas on here's who I am. Here's who God made me. Here's what has impacted my story, et cetera. And again, like, I think there's a small part, it's not big, but I think it's still significant. think the beta testing part of this, like.
12:36
Chris hadn't written any books yet and yeah, we were still feeling it out, but I'm stubborn. Like, you know, I'm, I am, I am a stubborn fool and I think there's pieces of, you know, like an unwillingness to really dive into the hard places. Plus I was still in a space and you know, before God really took the hammer to my life and broke it into pieces. Like I was still in this space where.
13:05
I I knew everything. Like I thought, I don't need this. Like I'm doing great. Look, you know, like I'm successful. I've got money, whatever. you know, like the delusions of grandeur type of thing. And you don't understand that how important some of that was. And it wasn't for lack of effort on some of the guys that were with me from the very beginning. Like, you know, people pressed in, but you know, I think I'm stubborn. that's, mean, that's just the reality. And so, I mean,
13:34
I went, you know, I've been to 15 groves now and you know, the one that I met Cody at was the first one that I can say that I understood all of the things that we were trying to accomplish with Restoration Project. And so that's what five groves ago and.
14:03
So that means I went to 10 groves without it really sinking in and kind of taking root. And so, you know, I think my, already talked my stubbornness, but my recommendation to people is also be kind to yourself. for me, it had to be a journey. had to be this process. And I think we talked last time about, wish it was painful and I wish it, wish it were more efficient and you know, but it is a journey and I am who I am today and who I.
14:32
how I present myself and who I am as a human being is a product of that journey and a product of those 10 groves where it took me. It just took time for me to kind of understand and really learn and let go, like learn how to go into the hard places and let go of some of the stubbornness in not wanting to do so. Shae, I'm curious. You said it took 10 grove retreats.
15:02
Before you kind of really were capturing everything. I'll ask you two questions. What was it that kept you coming back to the Grover tree and what actually changed? I'm just curious because I wasn't around then. How did you see Restoration Project as an organization shifting and moving over the course of that time? Yeah, I mean, like here's the crazy thing. Like I was on the board and was chairman of the board in a previous stint during some of those 10 growths. And so.
15:33
There's a, you know, whether it was fake it till you make it, or I believed in what was happening. Like I knew it was important. Maybe there was a sense of, didn't think it was important for me or maybe I didn't, you know, like, I don't know what the block was there. I kept coming back because I had never been loved by other men that way. And that's really what it is. Like it's the sense of you love me even because I'm stubborn.
16:01
You love me even if I roll my eyes at you because you've made a dumb poker play. You love me even when, you know, I don't return your tax. You love me even if it doesn't feel like I'm listening or paying attention. Like you love me despite all the things that are wrong and dirty and ugly. And you know, my wife kept saying, come back a little bit better each time. And so there was permission there as well. Yeah.
16:30
I love the articulation of it, Shae. Again, you talk about some of the evolution of language that's always happening. Like the word brotherhood is used a lot and it's one that we value a ton. But there's something about you phrasing it that way of like, you love me despite all of these things. And I would say I would add onto that, like you are loved because not despite of these things, but also because of the goodness of God that you reflect, right? And so that piece of yes, you come back.
17:00
a little better, right? I think all of us would say in all communities, I think like where goodness is happening, right? That actually the character of God is experienced in more full ways and some glimpses because of the people that are present there, right? So it's not only you that return different, but we do as well because of some of the ways that God's character is imaged because of the other men there. the great irony, I've missed one, one grove in my whole time.
17:26
And it was right around the time I got fired when we had moved here and I was scared. I was ashamed and I didn't want to face like, this is what I was feeling at the time. didn't want to face all those people that cared and loved me in hindsight. I should have come because it probably would have helped my journey to healing. Accelerate a little bit, but I just like.
17:56
When I'm, you know, if you're familiar with the Enneagram, I'm in Enneagram eight and stress, I go to Enneagram five and I withdraw. I pull in, I hunker down, I try and figure it out on my own. And again, in hindsight, that wasn't what I needed at the time, but it's part of my story too, right? It's part of the journey and who I am and took one or two more. And then I met Cody and things started turning around, but you know, it's a journey.
18:25
I'd ask both of you guys, how have you come to view patience in your life? Because what you're talking about, Shae, right, is this, you know, years long process, right, of work that is really slow, really meaningful, but really slow. And so I'm curious for you guys, like, how is this notion of the long game of patience, right? Eugene Peterson has that book, like, A Long Obedience in the Same Direction. Like that concept of the long game and patience, how's that notion shifting in your life as you continue to get older?
18:54
I would turn that question on its head a little bit and I would say, are an eight challenge away. Like for me, it's not necessarily patients as it is having, you know, to use the language of Chris's book sage, like to have a couple of sages in my life that had hope and demonstrated hope in a way that I had never experienced in my life and kept essentially coming back to the table with me.
19:24
no matter how I showed up. so Chris was one of those people. Like he had a hope that I could be who God had brought me in the world to be. And even if that was going to take 10 years, he was not going to give up. And the same is true of my pastor, the church we attend now. And like he had a reckless hope, you know, if I can use that qualifier, like
19:53
He took a fair amount of abuse from me when I was in the darkest places of my journey. And he's like, Nope, the story's not done. Nope. We're still going to come to the table. Nope. You know, like I'm not going to let you go. And so that's what saves it for me. And so, yeah, there, mean, certainly pay, you know, I think Chris and my pastor have patients, but you know, like I think I marvel at people who have that.
20:21
radical level of hope, because it's not something that I have naturally. And so to see it demonstrated is super powerful. just want to switch gears a little bit for a minute. If I can. I'm super curious, Shae, you are the chairman of the board. You've been around your dinosaur core. You've been around for a long time. You've seen the organization shift and morph and, and all of those things. I'm curious, just see for the last couple of years, maybe it's even currently or looking forward.
20:51
What has been hopeful? What has been something that actually just really gets you excited about what's happening with Restoration Project? Great question. As we sat in the basement or around the bonfire at that house in Laramie, we could not have imagined any of this. Truly. Chris may have had a small twinkle in his eye about it, but like to be where we are, we're
21:19
You have a podcast, you have an app and you have hundreds and hundreds of men having their lives restored because of this is extraordinary to me. And so I think what I am most excited about is this vision that you guys have cast about what being a part of a Grove really is. And that idea of when you look at the root system of a Grove stand.
21:47
It's interconnected. And you know, the fact that, you know, I just did a brotherhood primer with a cohort at church and like, we're texting each other multiple times a week about things that are fun, but things that are hard. And that connectivity that started and literally going through the brotherhood primer, there were a couple of guys that shared things they had never shared with another human being.
22:16
including their wife and the power of story, the power of connection, the power of experience. And we, have fun. We're all going out to gladiator two tomorrow night. You know, the power of blessing. We finished the book off with the blessing night and none of them had done anything remotely like that. And literally everyone's like, can you send me what you wrote?
22:44
Cause I want to have that. Like the vision you guys have created to have that be where we're headed. That's extraordinary. And the lives of men are going to be restored and changed. we kicked off the sage book last night and our cohort. And we were talking about it. Like several of the guys were commenting that, you know, in the introduction, Chris talks about the men who are 60, 70, 80.
23:14
looking back and being filled with regret. And they're like, I am afraid of that. I don't want that. And so now we're going to dive in and change the trajectory of several men so that that's not what they end up like. And so what you guys have created and the vision you've cast like multiplying that as much as possible to bring that restoration, that restorative man.
23:42
into this world so desperately needs it. mean, I'm all in. Like, I'm so thrilled by that. It's cool. Just to clarify, Shae, like you keep saying you guys and you're definitely part of the group of guys. Yeah, I know. But I like the behind the scenes role that I get to play. thanks for joining us and for speaking about the long game of not.
24:09
just organizationally RP of, of witnessing and being part of that, but in your own life, thanks for the reckless hope that you have had also for this organization and for your own heart, even if you didn't know it at times. And so as you were speaking, I just was remembering this great prayer by terrible hard day, Sheradine. My French is so bad. The people who speak French, I'm sorry. I've butchered it. He's this guy. is French. Like I know, dude, I'm Scottish. Don't ask me why.
24:39
But he was, sorry, not in the 1500s. He was much more recent. Sorry, I'm looking at the dates. He was like a scientist and a saint and a mystic in the, born in 1880. Anyways, he has this great prayer that I'd love to read and it's called trust in the slow work of God because I think your life, Shae, and what you've been a part of is a testament to that. And I would imagine all of us, as we examine the spaces that we're in, need an acknowledgement of the fact that we're participants.
25:08
and work that really is not our own that we get to join. so, love to read this as we wrap up. It goes like this, above all trust in the slow work of God. We are quite naturally impatient in everything to reach the end without delay. We should like to skip the intermediate stages. We are impatient of being on the way to something unknown, something new. And yet,
25:35
It is the law of all progress that is made by passing through some stages of instability and that it may take a very long time. And so I think it is with you, your ideas mature gradually, let them grow, let them shape themselves without undue haste. Don't try to force them on as though you could be today. What time
26:01
That is to say grace in circumstances acting on your own goodwill will make of you tomorrow. Only God could say what this new spirit gradually forming within you will be. Give our Lord the benefit of believing that his hand is leading you and accept the anxiety of feeling yourself in suspense and incomplete. That's beautiful. Thanks for being with us, Shae.
26:30
I've also decided that, you know, my new life goal is to be called a mystic after I'm dead. think like that has to be. Forget the trophy. If you get laid though, want to be a mystic. I'm not a t-shirt for you. Yeah, perfect. New t-shirt design. Awesome to be with you guys. It's good to be with you guys.