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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 77 (Ian Simkins)
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[00:00:00]
Welcome and Ian’s Story
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Andrew Camp: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. In this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today, I'm joined by Ian Simkins.
Ian is the lead pastor of The Bridge Church just outside Nashville, Tennessee, and the author of the newly released "Every Table an Altar." He and his wife, Katie, have three boys who keep their home incredibly loud and their table beautifully full.
So thanks for joining me today, Ian. Uh, really looking forward to the conversation.
Ian Simkins: Man, thank you for having me. I'm honored.
Andrew Camp: So as we get started, how has the table and food formed you as you think, you know, as you've written now a book about the table, like, how has the table f- formed you-
and who you are as, as a person?
Ian Simkins: Sure, man. I mean, how much time do you got? Geez. Well, yeah. I, uh, I could talk about this all day, man. I, I, I mentioned somewhere in the book that it, I, you know, it began in my [00:01:00] childhood. I'm the, I'm the oldest of seven kids, and, uh, we lived in a little house outside Detroit, and I c- I can't think of a time that my parents said no to a friend who needed, like, a, a hot meal or a place to stay.
Like, it just was a... I didn't really understand how unique that was when I was a kid. Mm-hmm. It wasn't till years later that I was reflecting on it, like, "Oh, my, my parents modeled what I, what I see as, like, biblical hospitality in some pretty profound ways." So that, that certainly is, I, where I think it began to shape me most, most formatively, was just in my childhood, for sure.
Andrew Camp: I get that. I, similar of where my parents' table was always- Hmm. ... central to who we are. Dinner. We were around- Yeah ... the table every night- Yep ... for dinner. Yep. Um, which the more I reflect on it was unique, um, and, you know, not always normal for people.
Ian Simkins: Right. Exactly. And it, it's, you don't really understand until you...
I remember going to a buddy's house, and this is no [00:02:00] knock on, you know, any other kind of f- family rhythms, but, like, nobody even sat with each other. They were all in different parts of the house, like, glued to a screen or something. And I r- and I remember thinking, "Oh, this is very different from, from the rhythms of my own household."
And I, I think that's when I began to appreciate more and more, like, the, the convictions that my parents had that they, you know, kinda stuck to.
Andrew Camp: For sure.
Jesus and Subversive Tables
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Andrew Camp: And then as you've explored scripture, you know, tables- Yeah ... and food throughout any culture have this immense power to draw boundaries of, you know- Yep
who's in, who's out, you know. Um, and so as you've looked through scripture and looked through the Biblical narrative, um, especially the gospels, like, how do you see the table operating and w- how do you see God's heart operating through the table?
Ian Simkins: I, I mean, before I started really researching this, I, there's a couple things.
So I, uh, you know, I grew up in the church, and I was homeschooled, uh, in the '80s and '90s, and my, part of our curriculum [00:03:00] was, you know, reading the Bible cover to cover, and I had never noticed, one, like, how often Jesus found himself at a table. That had, like, completely escaped me. But two, it wasn't till I started researching that I realized how, how much table fellowship meant in the 1st century.
Like- Mm-hmm ... it was one thing to notice, like, boy, Jesus actually finds himself at tables a lot, but that s- that felt, uh, uh, non-consequential to me until I realized, like, oh, these were statements about the nature of the Kingdom of God. And so much of what 1st century, particularly in Judaism- You know, even like the t- the way the tables were built was, was what, what, what's called the triclinium, this kind of U-shaped table formation, and it was, it was very much about stratification- Mm-hmm
about pretty clearly articulating who's in, who's not, who has power, who doesn't. And so with that lens, seeing the way that Jesus used tables, I think sometimes unfortunately in Christian circles [00:04:00] when we talk about Jesus at the table, it kind of gets reduced to like a nice kind of kumbaya Jesus loves to like, you know, hang out with people.
And like He actually does some pretty subversive things at these tables. He's often offering some very harsh words of rebuke and correction, so it, it certainly wasn't like a, like a Bob Ross Reading Rainbow kind of a- No ... kind of a... Sometimes, you know? Yeah. But it was way more intense than that, and that was, that was pretty fascinating to me once I started to kind of peel back some of the, some of the layers.
Andrew Camp: So you're not... You're saying it's not a Precious Moments type of, of picture?
Ian Simkins: Yeah, right. It, it- I mean, so much so, man, that He, He, uh, you know, He was accused by the religious elite of being, quote, "A drunk and a glutton."
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Ian Simkins: Like, that's a, that's a pretty scathing rebuke, especially in the 1st century. So apparently He was spending enough time with like, quote-unquote, "those people"-
Andrew Camp: Right
Ian Simkins: that it was like making the, the pious of His day very, very uncomfortable. And I [00:05:00] thought, "Man, I can't, I can't think of the last time that I made religious people uncomfortable by who I broke bread with." You know, even just personally that was very convicting. I, I pastor a church in the Bible Belt. I, I could easily spend time only with other Christians who look and talk and think just like I do, and, uh, just the, the life and ministry of how Jesus mo- modeled this is so counterintuitive for me.
Andrew Camp: I think what I've wrestled with and continue to wrestle with is, um, you know, Jesus spent time on both sides. That, you know, Jesus was with the-
Ian Simkins: Right ...
Andrew Camp: ta- tax collectors and prostitutes, but then he never cut off table fellowship with the Pharisees. Um- That's right ... and so which in our day and age, it seems like you have to be either or.
Yeah, right. And to be both and, like at a table that is both and... You know, and granted, he did have different words for both parties, right? Like, and I don't think- Totally ... we can't miss that fact of what he says to Pharisees versus what he says-
Ian Simkins: Hmm ...
Andrew Camp: to, to [00:06:00] tax collectors, you know, and sinners and prostitutes and the, you know, the, the oppressed.
Right. But he never stopped extending table fellowship. Um-
Ian Simkins: Totally. Who- It is funny how, uh, people tend to want to cite him flipping tables, which, uh, is, that's an important observation. But I would usually say, yeah, but look at the ratio of tables he sat at versus tables he flipped. It's, that's not to say that there aren't times to flip some tables and to call out injustice.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Ian Simkins: But the, the mere ratio of... Like, for me, that's become a prayer in this season. Lord, forgive me for sitting at tables you would've flipped And for flipping tables where you would have sat Hmm 'Cause m- I'm inclined to error in both directions at times, and I think that, at least personally, that has been a really convicting, like, man, where are the tables that I probably have instinctively just flipped them
Andrew Camp: Right.
Ian Simkins: Yeah ... out of what I think is righteous anger? I'm like, oh, I actually think, ah, Jesus might have, [00:07:00] he might have broke bread even with that person, and, and maybe I was too quick to draw a distinction or a judgment, and I, you know, I, I've been, I've been, uh, imperfectly trying to follow Jesus for a few decades now, and I'm Yeah
repeatedly convicted by, like, how often I get it wrong, you know?
Andrew Camp: I love that statement that you said, that Jesus, you know, the ratio is important. And, and- Yeah ... Caleb Campbell, a pastor here in, um, Arizona, and he's down in Phoenix, I'm in Flagstaff, but- Hmm ... he's written on loving your Christian nationalist neighbor, and he talks about- Hmm
that Jesus set way more tables than he flipped.
Ian Simkins: Um-
Andrew Camp: 100% ... you know, and that's been a, a strong counter-narrative for him of, like, okay, like, as we think about politics and-
Ian Simkins: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: however that looks like on both sides, like, you know, Jesus, like you said, Jesus sat at more tables than he flipped, and-
Ian Simkins: Totally ...
Andrew Camp: our inclination is to other people way more quickly than maybe Jesus would have.
Ian Simkins: Well, and that's the... There's a, I [00:08:00] think I use it in the book, Brene Brown has this phrase, she said something like, "People are hard to hate up close." Yeah. I think we, we're in a crisis of up close right now. I think as the world becomes more artificial-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Ian Simkins: the world is going to crave that which is human, like really human.
And that's not to say, oh man, have one dinner with a person and you're magically gonna agree on every- I don't, I don't think that's honest. No. But I will say it, it becomes way harder to vilify someone when you, like, know a little bit of their childhood or, oh, they, oh, you lost your mom a few years ago to cancer, or your kid was diagnosed with...
You know what I mean? Like, it, it... I feel like there's so much from behind a screen that you just don't, there's no, there's no opportunity for that kind of meaningful, what I would call, like, incarnational presence. And that's not to... I'm not the anti-tech guy, I'm not the anti-social media guy. I think there's lots of benefits to these [00:09:00] things.
But when that replaces what can only happen face-to-face, uh, I do think we're seeing some of those implications play out right now in real time. And I think guys like Jonathan Haidt, you know, with the Anxious Generation, is- Yeah ... sounding the alarm. Like, hey, this is, the jury is not out anymore. Like, the harm this is doing to children, to societies, to cultures, is seismic.
And I think there's gonna be, not just for Christians, I think there's gonna be a, a massive appetite in the next five to 10 years around, like, meaningful in-person connection, and I think the, the table is, is the natural starting point for that.
Andrew Camp: And, and that's where I've always been drawn to the table.
There's something that happens at the table that feels qualitatively different-
Ian Simkins: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: than any other place. Yeah. Like-
Ian Simkins: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: c- 'cause the question that got me on this path of, okay, what is it about food and the table that-
Ian Simkins: Hmm ...
Andrew Camp: is d- feels different, is like we, we are [00:10:00] eager and happy and content to linger at a table-
Ian Simkins: Hmm
Andrew Camp: and the chairs are never comfortable. The couch is- Yeah, right ... five, you know, five feet away, right? Like, we
Ian Simkins: can go- Yeah.
Andrew Camp: But yet the table, we just, we're, we're okay just sitting there for hours. Yep. Yep. And so for you, as you think, you know, and you've named it, of, you know, in this culture where we've become so tech-dominant or artificial-dominant or- Hmm
screen-dominant, like, what, how, how are you seeing the table act as a counter-narrative, counter-formative practice-
Ian Simkins: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: um, for, for you and other people in your lives?
Ian Simkins: Man, I love that question. There's a couple of directions I would go. One, I, I have three little boys, age seven and four, so, like, I will not-
Andrew Camp: Bless you.
Bless you.
Ian Simkins: I... Thanks, man. Bless my wife, dude. I, I- Yeah ... will not paint a false picture of like, oh man, every evening is a Thomas Kinkade painting, and we all just sing hymns and, like, ca- like, it is [00:11:00] chaos. And, and candidly, sometimes I feel the, the pressure. I'm like, "I'm the table guy. I, like, wrote a book about it.
I should be good at this by now." You know what I mean? Like- ... and sometimes they're just running all over the place, and I'm desperately trying to get them to answer one question about their day other than "fine." You know what I mean? Like, that's-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: that's real. But there are other times where maybe I'm feeling stressed, and I'm like, "You know, I will just eat at the island," that my seven-year-old will come up and say, "Papa, w- why aren't we at the table?"
Like, this is, this is table time. And like-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Ian Simkins: as a father, the conviction but also the gifted is like, oh, he's, he already know, even when he fights it, you know, he's like, "No, no, no, this is the time of day where I get undivided attention from Mom and Dad." You know, they're not running around, do- And they, and this is where we connect.
Like, that feels like such a small thing, but to hear that from your seven-year-old, like, oh, I'm already seeing the formative practices, like, take root in his life. And that, h- listen, [00:12:00] there's a million, there's a million opinions about how to raise healthy kids and what we shouldn't s- you know, sh- shouldn't say yes to, and I think there's a lot of cases to be made.
It does feel like there is a fair amount of scholarly research around the benefits of frequent family dinners, even if done poorly, even without- Right ... 10 discussion questions and, like, a really, uh, spiritual kind of framing around the... Like, even done poorly, like, making that a consistent, disciplined space in your home has massive implications for the formation of our children.
What we're seeing even at a church level, though, has been really cool because I... And I'll, I'll die on this hill, man. The, the Ephesians 4 call For the apophets, prophets, uh, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry. M- my... The, the drum that I'll keep banging is my job as pastor isn't to do all the work.
It's to equip our community [00:13:00] to live on mission wherever God has them. Right. And part of what I try to keep in front of them is the beauty of the table is that we all have one. It might be a big, beautiful farm table, like in a big, massive mansion. Yeah. And it might be something that folds and you put in the closet.
But all of us can create these sacred spaces of connection-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ...
Ian Simkins: wherever we live, work, and play. And so I, I'm predisposed as a, as a pastor to, man, how do I continue to keep in front of our church? Now, this is for you, too. This isn't just for the, the quote-unquote paid professionals on a stage. Like ministry, the early church took shape and, and I would argue grew explosively, not predominantly because of their sermons or their branding or their webs- any of that.
It was this radical hospitality that they all just lived out in their ordinary lives, and I just, I... It's been such a gift to see our, our church kind of, uh, catch a vision for that kind of life together
Andrew Camp: Yeah, 'cause as you said, the church [00:14:00] exploded because of the table, and I've heard- Yep ... other people say it, because it was a table that like it wasn't divided by class or, um-
Ian Simkins: Yep
Andrew Camp: male, female, or any other thing, but people would walk by and see, you know, slaves eating with free people, masons eating with- Yes ... jewelers, or, you know, all different trades eating with each other, and different- Yes ... socioeconomic, and people might have been like, "Maybe I can belong at that table."
Ian Simkins: Yeah, dude.
Andrew Camp: And yet too often now we're apt, maybe, um, you know, whatever side, like w- you know, we want to exclude or, you know, say who's welcome or not welcome.
Ian Simkins: Mm.
Communion and Real Hospitality
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Andrew Camp: Um, you know, and so like even as we think then about this as a church practice, like how, as you've thought about communion and this meal par excellence, like how do you- Mm
see the communion offering, um, the foundation for all, all other meals?
Ian Simkins: Yeah. The, it's, uh, it's one of the last [00:15:00] chapters I wrote actually, and I knew, again, cards on the table, I'm a, I'm a Protestant pastor, so I knew- Yeah ... that writing about the Eucharist was gonna be potentially controversial given your particular theological stream.
So I was trying to be, I was trying to be very, very, like generous with my interpretation and what I do- Right ... and don't think is happening here. I think, uh, I mean, there's a lot of things. I think Paul, Paul offers some pretty harsh words around those who are like, you know, stuffing their faces before the poor or the community could participate.
Like, there's this, there's obviously a very clear kinda justice component to the table. It's not just, you know, uh, I was raised in a tradition that had the two plastic cups with like the little, uh, cracker and the little grape juice. Yep. And I thought, "Oh, that's the extent." I d- No one... I was in my 30s when I learned about what an agape feast was.
I didn't... Oh, I was like- Right ... "Oh, it was an actual, like, meal. Uh, that makes- Yeah ... so much more sense." We weren't passing- [00:16:00] Right ... tr- So I understand that there's certain limitations to some of our kind of, uh, expected kinda gathering rhythms. But I also think, what, what I write about in the book is that communion is both past, present, and future.
There is this-
Andrew Camp: Mm. Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: this remembrance, remembering our story. Scripture has, you know, these countless commendations to remember what God has done. There's this present piece, you know, again, the Apostle Paul says, "When we eat this bread and drink this cup, are we not-" participating in the body of Christ. So it's not just, "Hey, thanks for this thing you did."
It's, "All right, hel- help me to open my eyes to what it is that you're doing." And then it's also a future. Like, we know that all of this is headed toward the wedding feast. Right. Like, it is, there's, it's a table. So, like, part of what we declare is, man, whatever inbreaking of the kingdom God allows us to be a part of now is meant to be a trailer to the coming attraction of the full-length film, you know?
And I, even just thinking [00:17:00] about trailer language. Like, yeah, it's supposed to be a gl- a glimpse of- Yeah ... of the, of, of the renewed creation. And I'm like, man, that's way more enigmatic than just this is the two minutes in service that we pause and somberly reflect on Christ's death and resurrection. That's part of it, but it's-
it's just so much more expansive than that.
Andrew Camp: And I think you and I were raised in a similar tradition where, you know, like- Mm ... when Paul exhorts the Corinthians, you know, to examine yourself lest you take communion in an unworthy manner.
Ian Simkins: Uh-huh.
Andrew Camp: You know? Like, it, I remember in, in youth group it was like, "You gotta be right with Jesus."
Like, "Don't come unworthy." And then- Uh-huh ... I'm like, it wasn't like you said till I'm close to my 30s where I'm like-
Ian Simkins: Wait a minute ...
Andrew Camp: w- wait a minute, I'm, I'm never worthy. Like
Ian Simkins: Right.
Andrew Camp: Like, um, wait, hold... And then, like, you real- you do, like, I did the studies in seminary of like, wait, no, Paul is saying more about socioeconomic issues and justice [00:18:00] issues- Yes,
Ian Simkins: yes
Andrew Camp: and who's hungry and not hungry, and not actually about my unworthiness.
Ian Simkins: Mm.
Andrew Camp: And, like, you know. And, and yet we w- like- I wonder sometimes if the Protestant tradition having minimized the Eucharist, maybe because of Catholic theology back when- Sure ... the Reformation started, and right, maybe there's, you know, any time you react to something, the pendulum might swing too far, and so- Sure
we pay for those decisions. Um, you know, but neglecting communion or, you know, pushing communion to the side- Mm ... um, w- I wonder sometimes what has that done to our understanding of a table- Yeah ... where, you know, we're invited, you know, where p- Jesus gives Peter, Jesus gives Judas the elements even as they're- Yeah
about to betray him in the worst possible way. Yeah. It's like-
Ian Simkins: Totally ...
Andrew Camp: um, you know. Yeah.
Ian Simkins: I had this... I don't know, a- and this, correct me if this doesn't hold theological weight or not. I had this thought a couple weeks [00:19:00] ago thinking about Judas in particular at the, at the table, and realizing that as best we can tell, Jesus loved Judas so completely that none of the other disciples even predicted that it was Judas that would betray him.
Like, that to me is so- Yeah ... sobering. Like, you'd think J- Jesus would a- have offered, like, some clues along the way, like, "That might be Judas. It's probably Judas." Yeah. Like, he... We don't get any indication that anyone thought that, and I think- When even when I come into The Bridge, we, um, you know, The Bridge, like a lot of churches at the time, I think was...
I think they were receiving communion once a quarter maybe, or maybe once a month, and I just, I felt the conviction around that. It obviously wasn't, like, priority number one. Right. But it was one of those things, like, "Hey, I, I think this is something I'd like to..." And I, you know, I, I drafted a, a paper that kind of explained some of the theology behind it.
But it was interesting, the, a lot of the pushback was, [00:20:00] "Well, if you do it, if we do it too frequently, it will, quote-unquote, 'lose its specialness.'" And I'm so interested in our obsession with specialness. Right. I'm like, the... Exactly around this table conversation, we do, I do often, like, crave the big, the dramatic, the special, and I think the reason the table is so subversive to me is it's none of those things.
Andrew Camp: No.
Ian Simkins: It i- it is exa- it is in the crucible of the, of our daily life that formation actually happens. It's not the annual retreat and the mountaintop spiritual experience. It actually is in these ordinary, seemingly mundane spa- That's actually where growth and formation happens, and it's so often because we want it to always feel like butterflies in my stomach, and we want it- Yeah
to be an anniversary every weekend. You're like, that's not life. That's not where most of us live most of the time. And so if we reduce spirituality to just a [00:21:00] couple of these, like, milestone moments, I just feel like we miss out on 98% of our actual lived experience. And so, so gathering together weekly and actually ingesting bread and cup physically as this w- kind of weekly formative reminder that, oh man, before God off- asks me to offer myself, He offered Himself.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Ian Simkins: I don't, I don't think we can remind each other of that too much, ever.
Andrew Camp: No, no. Well, and as Alexander Schmemann, a great Greek Orthodox theologian, wrote in- Mm-hmm ... For the Life of the World, "God made man hungry." Like -
Ian Simkins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yes ... you know, even before, in the garden, be- before sin, like-
Ian Simkins: Mm ...
Andrew Camp: man was created as a hungry being.
Ian Simkins: Yes.
Andrew Camp: I- in all aspects, right? Spiritually, physically, you know- Mm ... emotionally, you know, psycholo- you know, in our total being, we are hungry beings.
Ian Simkins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And so for us to deny that- [00:22:00] We're, we're denying the goodness of what God wanted us to be.
Ian Simkins: Mm. Mm.
Andrew Camp: Um, and even somebody else pointed out that how often Jesus shows up post-resurrection eating.
Like he walks- Oh, yeah ... through doors, but then he eats. Like- ... he can walk through a wall or he can appear and disappear at, uh, at a snap of a finger, and yet he's still- Yes ... eating fish. And, like, you know, you talk about crazy, you know, and mind-boggling. Like, okay, he can walk through a wall, but he's still eating physical food.
Like, what? Like-
Ian Simkins: Yes.
Andrew Camp: You know, and so if the post-resurrection Jesus is eating, like where- Mm ... we, maybe we need to think through what, what eating needs to be. And if we're worried about denying the specialness or ruining the specialness, maybe we need to stop preaching too because we're ruining the specialness of, of preaching, you know?
Yeah. But that's just me. Right, right. You know, I'm in my little high horse of- ... you know, making sure that the table is center to everything we do and, but-
Ian Simkins: Yes ...
Andrew Camp: I won't, yes, I could, I don't get, I won't get on my [00:23:00] soapbox right now with you, Ian.
Ian Simkins: Soapbox away, man. This is a safe space.
Andrew Camp: This is a safe space. But e- but in the Eucharistic eating, not only is time unique and as we celebrate Eucharist, but something different happens where like in, um, you know, where when we eat, the food becomes us, but I think in Eucharist eating, not only does the food become us, but we become the body of Christ.
Mm. You know? And so like- Yeah ... there's this like weird spiritual aspect that is happening that only seems to take place in the Eucharist. And granted, I, I think the Greek Orthodox and the Catholic Church may have more to offer us than we let them when it comes to- Sure ... thinking about the Eucharist in its totality.
Yeah. But, um, I think there is something unique that happens as we partake.
Ian Simkins: Totally. I mean, even the... I don't think this made the book actually, but the, the post-resurrection, uh, Emmaus road encounter, it, it- Yeah ... wasn't until the breaking of bread-
Andrew Camp: Right ...
Ian Simkins: that the, that the lights turned on. [00:24:00] Like, that is... If you know anything about, you know, first century writing, that's not an accidental detail.
Like, he's, he's- No ... walking with them, he's having conversation, but it actually is in the, the breaking of bread that they're like, "Oh, oh." Like, that is- Yeah ... that is worthy of our attention regardless of where you land on, you know, consubstantiation versus transubstantiation, whatever. I mean, there's, there's all sorts of, I think, really interesting discussion points there.
I just think particularly in the West, we have so, um, maybe diminished the value and power of the table. Right. And it's been cool to see... I mean, even we were, we were joking about, uh, uh, uh, during COVID, we were watching all these other live streams and, you know, depend- depending on who we were watching, I saw a bunch of people who were, like, facilitating communion f- from a Zoom screen or something like that, and saying, "All right, grab whatever you got.
Grab, uh, Froot Loops and orange juice." And I was like, [00:25:00] "Ah, I don't..."
Andrew Camp: Right.
Ian Simkins: May- maybe, maybe I'm being a stick in the mud. I don't love that for whatever reason. But even at the time, I was like, "I don't know that I could articulate why I don't love that." I, I, I can better now, but there was even something intuitive that was like, that doesn't, that, that doesn't feel like what that's supposed to be, you know?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. But, but in a make-do situation, if you're unprepared, you know, could something- Right ... Yes. And then I, like we- You know, the ideals are always beautiful, but sometimes- Yes, totally ... reality hits. And like you said, ideally this table is a place of warmth and welcome, and yet- Yeah, right ... our kids are kids, and the bewitching- Totally
hour of 4:00 to 7:00 PM where hangry-ness is rampant and- Yes. Yes ... or they're... Yeah, like, it's real, and you make do with reality. Yes. And yet- Totally ... you still find the grace that you need for that, that moment.
Ian Simkins: I think that's a good point too, because I, I think in a lot of [00:26:00] ways, uh, we have conflated hospitality with entertainment, you know?
Yeah. People talk about en- entertaining guests, and that... And I, I, I'm not knocking that either. I think some people have the gift of entertaining. They, they, they know what a cornucopia is and how to put together a charcuterie board, and that's not, uh, that's not me at all. But I do think, like, even the origins of the word hospitality, philoxenia, the love of the stranger, it is the welcome of the person who is distant, far off, the person that everyone else might say, "Oh, no thank you," about.
Mm-hmm. Like, the, the invita- be- and the implications for that, the reason that's so significant is because that is exactly what Jesus does for us. Yeah. So it's not just, "Hey, go be a nicer person because that's what good Christians should do." It's, "No, no, this is a, this is a, a microcosm of cosmically what God has done in Christ, that while you were-" Yeah
"far off, while you were distant, [00:27:00] he drew near. He's God Emmanuel." And so when we open our tables, it's less about... It's everything you're saying. It's less about, "Boy, I hope they're really impressed with my dining room, and really impressed with my kitchen, and really impressed with my cooking." All of those can be fine instincts.
Hospitality is, is, is way more raw than that. Mm-hmm. And it, and it is okay at times with dishes in the sink, and laundry in the basket, and kids who maybe aren't perfectly behaved, and they're not, you know, Von Trapping it up the steps singing at the end of the night. Yeah. Like, there's... You know what I mean?
Like, it's- Yeah ... it lets the, it lets the- It, it removes some of the pressure that I think we often feel in this highly entertainment type of culture where hospitality says, "Yeah, I'll, I'll make a couple extra bowls of chili while I'm making it- Yeah ... in order for you to feel some kind of genuine welcome," you know?
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. Or, or we see the Martha Stewarts on TV with the beautifully- Right ... ta- cultivated table, and I think Priya Parker in her book The Art of Gathering, which [00:28:00] is a beautiful-
Ian Simkins: Yes ...
Andrew Camp: book all about hospitality. Like, she, she talks about that commodification of hospitality that Martha- Mm. You know, we have, like, the Martha Stewart ideal of hospitality versus-
Ian Simkins: Totally
Andrew Camp: you know, sometimes ordering Domino's Pizza and a two-liter of Coke-
Ian Simkins: Yes ...
Andrew Camp: is, is just as beautiful as the five- Totally ... course dinner.
Ian Simkins: Totally. And that's not to say I, I've not, I'm not knocking five course. No. I'm not knocking good cuisine. I think all that matters. I think you would probably agree. Yeah. I just think I've met so many people over the years who have let themselves off the hook because they're not a Michelin star chef, and they're like, "Well, that must, that must not be for me."
Like, in the same way that- Yeah ... there are certain things... Uh, this might be pushing it. There are certain things though that I think are, I think every follower of Jesus is charged and called to do, and yet we're so easy to say, "Ah, I'm more of an introvert, so I don't think that's for me." You know, like, I don't think that there's...
There's obviously some wisdom [00:29:00] in recognizing skill set and giftedness, but then there are other things that as best I can tell Jesus said, "Yeah, g- yeah, go and do likewise." Yeah. Regardless of your Enneagram, regardless of your socioeconomics, that is just part of following Jesus means these things. And I, and I'm saying that to myself too.
There are a number of things that I have, like, opted out of because I didn't feel like I was very good at it or didn't feel like it was my wheelhouse. I don't like doing things that I'm not good at. I know that's not unique to me, but it's like- Right ... no, that sounds uncomfortable. It's way easier for me
Andrew Camp: Right
Ian Simkins: to take this approach. And the ta- and the table... Again, I'm a preacher, so I, s- so much of my- professional ministry role involves, like, crafting a sermon, and then it's this very kind of controlled environment. The beauty of the table is that all, all of that falls away. There's no- Yeah ... there's no [00:30:00] emotional underscore at the end of the sermon.
There's no PowerPoint.
Andrew Camp: No.
Ian Simkins: You know what I mean? Like, it is, you can't, there's no hiding. Like, oh- Mm ... we're at this slab of wood together sh- sharing some of our own kind of imperfect humanity. There's something actually really freeing about that, that I think a lot of us instinctively run from, 'cause it feels very exposed.
Andrew Camp: Yes. And I always come back to Henri Nouwen's definition of hospitality in- Mm-hmm ... reaching out. Uh- Yeah ... I think you, you touch on it in, in, like, of, that this hospitality is that creation of that free space- Yes ... where the other can become who God wants them to be. Um- That's
Ian Simkins: exactly right ...
Andrew Camp: which feels freeing, and scary, and vulnerable- Totally
liberating, and like, well, I'm gonna be exposed raw, like all at the same time. Mm. You know? 'Cause it frees us from the cultivation of a perfect space-
Ian Simkins: Mm ...
Andrew Camp: for them, or, but it then also puts, bears me [00:31:00] possibly naked- Mm.
Ian Simkins: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: in front of the other. Um-
Ian Simkins: Well, and it, and it does also, there's so much about my tradition that I really do appreciate, but there's some things that I inherited that, um, s- subtly turned people into projects.
You know? Like, it was- Yeah ... uh, like, "Oh, I need to, I need to steer every conversation towards the Romans' Road conversion." It's not... You know what I mean? Like, and it, and it created a- ho- honestly, almost a panic for a while. Like, boy, I, I think, I think I am failing left and right because I'm not baptizing every person that I encounter.
And I think people can tell when they're a project too. So they're-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: now, now when talking about, I'm gonna butcher the quote, but he says something like, "Hospitality doesn't change people. It is the creation of space where change can occur."
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Ian Simkins: So it's not like, "Oh, I invite you over in order to get you to pray this prayer."
Although by the grace of God, sometimes that is exactly what happens. [00:32:00]
Andrew Camp: Right.
Unearthing God at Work
---
Ian Simkins: But you also don't know if you're, you could be the 12th conversation of 150. You might not ever know, but that creation of free space... My, my buddy Hugh has this picture that I love. He says, uh, "Kingdom work is like archeology." He says we're, we're never ac- we're never bringing God anywhere.
God is already at work- Mm-hmm ... in that person and in that job and in this environment. The role of the Jesus follower is to unearth where God is already at work in this other person's life. To, so I've been- Yeah ... I've been living, like, with that imagery. Like, how do I, how do I pull back a little dirt here?
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Ian Simkins: Get really genuinely curious about this other person. And they may not even use language like God, but like- Yeah ... oh, where has God already been at work in their life, and how can I be curious with them? I don't think social media fosters environments of curiosity. I think we're seeing that. I think we know that.
I think we... It just reinforces our g- like, tribalistic [00:33:00] entrenchment, our echo chambers, and our confirmation bias. It just gets amplified and strengthened. Yeah. And I think in a lot of ways the, uh, the table is just the, it's almost the antidote to some of those things.
Becoming Guests and Hosts
---
Andrew Camp: So we're called to be, be good hosts, but then we're also invited sometimes to be guests.
Ian Simkins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And I, I'm cur- you know, like, um, but ... 'Cause I remember reading, you know, the missional movement, whatever, you know, and all the- Yep ... invite people into your spaces and-
Ian Simkins: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: you know, but there's still a power dynamic- Uh-huh
at play, right? Like, 'cause when I invite, if I invite you, Ian, into my house, I'm the host. I have the power.
Ian Simkins: Totally.
Andrew Camp: H- how do we become good guests in an ever-increasing hostile, pluralistic, you know, multi- You know, like, what's the role of a guest as- Totally ... you think about the table?
Ian Simkins: That's such a good question, man.
My buddy, uh, Gino, he actually has three categories. He says we are to be [00:34:00] recipients, hosts, and guests. So the recipients piece- Yeah ... is like the need for good Christian community. Yeah. Like, to be in a, to have gospel community where, like, listen, we're all, we're Team Jesus. We're gonna speak about Jesus in a particular way.
We're gonna, we're gonna read and apply scripture and break bread together. I think that's really needed. There's the host piece, which exactly to your point, there is still sometimes, not sometimes, almost always some kind of unspoken hierarchy. You've come into my home. Right. You've come to my event. I think the guest piece is maybe the most sobering because I think a lot of Christians first have to admit that they're not being invited to a lot of those spaces for a reason.
You know what I mean? Like- Yeah ... if you find yourself not having opportunity to be a guest, that alone I think says something. We, we were just talking about this the other day. Um, when Peter says, "Always be prepared [00:35:00] to give an answer for the hope that you have," implies that you're living the kinds of lives that evoke questions.
I think very candidly, a, a lot of Christians are, are in, in many ways living the opposite. It's just, it's constant fear, constant warnings, the world is ending, and I'm like, well, of course no one's gonna have a lot of questions about the hope that you have. You don't seem to be living with much hope- Mm-hmm
or much, or much joy. So at, at the very least, there's a, uh, there's a, a diagnostic step that says, "Am I living the kinds of lives..." You know, Peter uses the language among the pagans. I wouldn't necessarily, uh, encourage adopting that language wholeheartedly. Yeah. But he's implying a shoulder-to-shoulder kind of life that someone goes, "I'm not, I'm not sure that I feel the same way you do about Jesus or God or scripture, but I do have some questions because you seem to [00:36:00] speak to your kids in a way that is really refreshing, or the way that you use your money is really counterintuitive for me, or the way that you use your recreation or the way you speak about-" global affairs.
There's something to that.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Ian Simkins: That's I think a really sobering thing, and I think, you know, we live in the Bible Belt, so again, holy huddles are really easy to fall into. There is a very real... I'll say this, there's a very real upstream effort that has to happen to be good guests. Yeah. Like, are we even actively putting ourselves in places where that would be, where, where the religious elite would accuse us of being drunks and gluttons, you know?
Yep. I, I think often we get so preoccupied with kind of image management to like, oh, well, what will people think if I, I go to that show, or I go to this event, or I'm, I'm- Mm-hmm ... seen with those people? I think we have to first address that. Now, that's not to say that there isn't still, like, [00:37:00] wisdom and discernment.
I've had a number of people, since we started talking about the table a lot at The Bridge, there have been a few people that are like, "Yo, I, this c- community, this circle of friends almost destroyed my life. I, I have identified myself as an alcoholic. I don't think I can hang out there anymore." I would say there's probably some wisdom in that, actually.
I'm not saying-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: go back to that table or you're a bad follower of J- There is some wisdom in saying, no, this person abused me, and while I can forgive them- Mm-hmm ... I don't know that reconciliation is, is the wise move right now. So I do, I do wanna make sure that that's clear. But-
Andrew Camp: Right ...
Ian Simkins: I think by and large, a lot of Christians instinctively isolate, uh- Mm-hmm
with, with their own kind of tribe out of a sometimes really well-meaning desire for holiness. Mm-hmm. I just think we get holiness wrong a lot. If, if we believe that Jesus was and is the holiest [00:38:00] human that ever walked planet Earth, and then you look at how much time he spent with people that much of the culture had a problem with- Perfect
that should at least give us pause, I think.
Andrew Camp: Absolutely, and I, I know I still struggle with it of, like, you know, I think of hospitality still as, well, if I have some friends over, I'm doing a good job or like- Right ... I can show hospitality to my friends, but it's a much bigger step to become comfortable- Yeah
with the diversity or, you know, who, who, who is Jesus nudging at my heart to invite to my table that might-
Ian Simkins: Totally ...
Andrew Camp: be slightly uncomfortable. Um, and so how do you encourage people to take that step, or how have you stretched yourself- Yeah ... to take that step? Because, like, again, like there is a need obviously for those- Sure
those times of fellowship, of inviting my close friends for just a Bible study, right, where we-
Ian Simkins: Totally ...
Andrew Camp: can share honestly of how to raise our kids and what we're struggling with, but then there's that time where I need to invite somebody [00:39:00] else- Yeah ... to the table.
Ian Simkins: Totally. Yeah, man, I appreciate so much about that question because...
Okay, I'm gonna get, I'll get really granular because I think it's important, uh, one, to recognize that there is a real awkwardness to it. Like, it is not- And some of them will continue to be awkward. You know, you'll, you'll find the courage, you'll make the invite, and then it f- it falls flat. Like, there- Yeah
it's a very real, that's a very real reality. But I will say it is in many ways kind of like a muscle. Like, n- no one expects to go to the gym one time, work out really hard, and then leave ripped. Like, we just n- we know that intuitively at a physical level. And yet for some reason we think, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna put a date on the calendar and I'm gonna do a big evangelistic meal- Yeah
and then I'm gonna get my whole city saved." It, it is, it is like a muscle. So I would say I think there are steps between doing nothing and having them into your home. You know what I mean? Like-
Andrew Camp: Yes. Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: it could be- That's a good point ... [00:40:00] coffee. It could be burgers somewhere else. Like, it doesn't have- Yeah
to be... So I think giving people even categories and permission to start small, not only do I think it's wise, I think for most of it it's necessary. So you kind of stack some of those small wins. This is a little cheeky, but, like, one of the things we'll say at our church is, uh, "Hey, next week, most of you are gonna have something like 21 meals."
Most of us, most of us have three meals a day.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Ian Simkins: What if you just did one of them on purpose? That's all. Like-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: I think a lot of people, especially, like, exhausted parents, they can hear conversations like this and they're like, "Great, now one more thing to cram into an already really packed schedule."
I'm like, I don't know. I'm not saying... It's, uh, here's the 21 meals I'm already having.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Ian Simkins: Lord, what's one meal I can have on purpose? W- wh- who's one person in need of a word of grace or mercy or forgiveness? Who's one person that I can be just the smallest glimpse of the inbreaking of God's kingdom?
And then make the [00:41:00] ask. And I think, uh, for me It can be, again, I can be drawn to the big and the dramatic and the, you know, there's this line in Catcher in the Rye that I've been thinking about where he says, "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, but the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Ian Simkins: The, the die nobly is so hero- like, oh, I'm gonna go out in a blaze of glory and I'm gonna- Yeah ... do something massive and yeah, for some of us, that might be the case. More often than not, it's, uh, will, will you, will you live this ordinary faithfulness? This... You know, my buddy's got a sign over his kitchen sink that says e- everyone wants a revolution, no one wants to do the dishes.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Ian Simkins: I think that the, like, inviting the stranger, the hurting, the lonely to one cup of coffee is like the unsung work of incarnational [00:42:00] ministry. It is-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ...
Ian Simkins: that, that might not ever get you a book deal, that might not ever get you a speaking circuit. It is just the... It's when Paul says, "Make it your ambition to live a quiet life."
I, I don't, I don't see anybody running on that campaign right now. And, and yet, I think the word ambition shows up, like, three times in the New Testament, and one of it is-
Andrew Camp: Wow ...
Ian Simkins: just faithfully love the people that are, like, right in your midst, you know? We-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ...
Ian Simkins: we talk about loving our neighbor endlessly.
Most of us don't even know our neighbor. Like, there's a lot about loving your neighbor that I don't know. I do think knowing their name might help.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Ian Simkins: Yeah. So, like, for s- someone, somebody listening, that might be the easiest first step is, okay-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: I'm, I'm gonna learn their name and one detail about them.
You might be three years away from ever having them into your home. Mm-hmm. It might start with just simply recognizing, like, the sacred imago dei in another person- Right ... that you otherwise maybe would've, you [00:43:00] would've run from, you know?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Right. And I think this, this episode will release, like, right before Halloween, which is, like, the best time to actually ask- 100%
your neighbors their name. Like, "Hey, you know, we've lived on this block forever." Like, especially- Yes ... if you have young kids or if you have kids, coming to your door, but, like-
Ian Simkins: Totally ...
Andrew Camp: you just ask. Like
Ian Simkins: Totally ...
Andrew Camp: you know? And people, people are more than happy to be, appreciate just a little kindness. Um-
Ian Simkins: Well, and I, and I, listen, I don't know if this is controversial on this podcast or not, but, like, one of the things that we started doing is, uh, um, a couple years ago, I set up, like, a little s- screen with a projector, and I had, like, kids' Halloween movies.
Right. And I had a, um, like, a big Crockpot of, uh, apple cider that I was, like, you know-
Andrew Camp: Yeah, yep ...
Ian Simkins: dishing out to people, and I was like, "Optional whiskey shot for the parents if they're interested." Yep. And people were like-
Andrew Camp: Yep ... "
Ian Simkins: You could do that?" And I'm like, "Yeah, we're adults. Why not?" You know?
Andrew Camp: We're adults, yeah.
Yeah. I have some
Ian Simkins: friends who do that But even that was like such a brid- such a [00:44:00] bridge builder- Yeah ... for people that I- Yeah ... otherwise maybe wouldn't have interacted with.
Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. Yeah, we have some friends that do that. They, he sits out on his porch. You know, our, our neighborhood doesn't get a lot of trick-or-treaters 'cause we're up on a hill- Hmm
and you, you have to make- Oh, sure ... an effort to walk uphills- ... which most parents aren't going to do with their kids, right? Right,
right.
Ian Simkins: Like, forget that. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: No. Yep, that's too steep of a hill. My kid isn't gonna walk it up. I'm not carrying my kid. You know, number one rule of- Yeah ... trick-or-treating, we're not carrying you.
Like
Ian Simkins: Yes.
Andrew Camp: Right. B- But I have other friends who will just, they'll set up shop. He'll sit out on his- Hmm ... um, driveway and have a cooler full of cheap beer, you know? Yeah, man. And give out 24-packs, you know? And-
Ian Simkins: Come on ...
Andrew Camp: people love it.
Ian Simkins: It is the one of the... I know people have differences of opinions regarding- Yes
Halloween and what we should or shouldn't do. It is the one day where they literally come to you, you know? Yeah. Like, that's a pretty, at the very least, that's a pretty wild opportunity [00:45:00] to, to show the love of Christ in like a, like a meaningful, tangible way. And I, I don't know, I just think that's... I think you're spot on with that observation.
It's a, it's a really overlooked opportunity to love your neighbor.
Andrew Camp: And, a- and we show that tangible way with, with a tract with the Roman Road, as I was inferring- Of course ... from you earlier,
Ian Simkins: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Baptism tank out front. Yeah. Yeah. You're just-
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah ... just dunking fools left and right
are really bad Christian candy that, you know, has scripture on it.
Ian Simkins: Exactly. We're tracking. We're on the same page, for sure.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, yeah, versus actually handing out good candy that kids want.
Ian Simkins: Uh-huh. Yeah. Hand out king size in the name of Jesus. Let's do that. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Let's... Yeah. Make, make your house the cool house to go to, the k- the house the kids b- Yes
remember. Like, "Hey, wait, where was that house that ha- it had that big candy bar for us?"
Ian Simkins: 100%. 100%.
Andrew Camp: And that had the whiskey shot for, you know?
Ian Simkins: Uh-huh. '
Andrew Camp: Cause I wanna go to that house, 'cause yes, when you're walking out in the cold, like, you know, I live in Flagstaff where it's, we're at 7,000 feet. We don't know if Halloween night is going to be 32 degrees or [00:46:00] 45 degrees, and that's a big difference.
Oh, sure. And
Ian Simkins: so- Sure ...
Andrew Camp: a warm beverage with a little w- warming liquor in it-
Ian Simkins: Sure. ...
Andrew Camp: goes a long way to warm the soul.
Ian Simkins: Sure. Sure, man.
Sacrifice and Hunger Justice
---
Andrew Camp: Uh, so we're, you know, this table becomes a sacred altar and we are around it. We're cultivating a shared imagination with friends, family.
Ian Simkins: Mm.
Andrew Camp: But that cultivation of that shared imagination confronts us with hunger.
Mm. Um, and in a world of abundance, um, in a world where we ma- grow enough food to feed the world's population, there are too many that still go without.
Ian Simkins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so as you've thought about, um, Every Table an Altar, like, how does that altar then carry us forth to address the hunger crisis we continue to see throughout the world?
Ian Simkins: Totally. I mean, this is, uh... So an [00:47:00] altar, my guess is when people hear the word altar, they're probably thinking of a million different things. So, like-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: historically, a altar is a place of worship, you know? Uh, some would speak about it in a way where it's the place where heaven and Earth meet. I think that's really beautiful.
I think that's really important-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ...
Ian Simkins: uh, to this discussion. But an altar is also a place of sacrifice, right? In, in the, in the biblical imagination- Mm-hmm ... it's, you know, it's animals that are killed- Yeah ... and offered. There's a, there's a sacrifice piece. And so I'm not proposing that we, you know, start slaying goats at our dinner tables, but it, I do think there's an important aspect of sacrifice that probably doesn't get talked about enough.
There's, like, certainly the sacrifice of comfort, the sacrifice of, uh, my facade, of my time, of m- of control. Like, I think that's, that's all part of it. But there's also, like, a f- like, a fair amount of research that much of what made the early church so radical [00:48:00] was that Christians, in many documented cases, would even fast in order to provide food for the person- Hm
that was needy among them. You know, if you read Acts 2, there's some, like, really beautiful imagery around how they, how they now saw their possessions. And so it wasn't like, "Well, uh, that guy, you should, that guy should be feeding." It's like, no, no, uh, everything that I have is now seen through the lens of stewardship.
So if I'm just a, if I'm just a portfolio manager of, of my resources that God has entrusted with me, and there's needy and hungry, there's... I mean, it's in the words of Jesus. There's, uh, those who are without clothes, those who are in prison without visitors. Like, all of this now becomes a thing that I'm supposed to steward in the world.
Well then, like, hungry people, that b- there's a, there becomes, like, very real practical implications. Like, even, you know, for us, I was just, uh, I was just there last night. Our, our church does a, a thing called Second Sunday Supper, and y- we provide a meal, and [00:49:00] we're around tables, and we share a very brief Jesus story.
It's not a- Mm-hmm ... it's not a, a full sermon, you know?
Andrew Camp: Right.
Ian Simkins: But there's this, like as you mentioned earlier, something about eating is very neutralizing.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Ian Simkins: You know? And it has... And people, uh, it's not, it's not magical, but it, it, it, it feels like it almost. Like, oh, the, the guards just come down- Because you have a bowl of chili in front of you.
So it's not just a- Yeah ... hey, we're gonna feed you and get you out of here 'cause we recognize you maybe haven't had a meal for a minute. It's like people are also spiritually hungry for like- Yeah ... like meaningful connection and to know and be known, and so how, how do we hold intention? And boy, I wanna, we're gonna feed your body, but also like hopefully feed your soul in a way that isn't just get them through the line.
Like, uh, we got a, you know, we got a number- Right ... to hit and a quota to meet. And I, uh, I think the, yeah, the way that the early church modeled this around tables through this just radical hospitality. And you, you have [00:50:00] even, uh, recorded accounts throughout antiquity of people who are not Jesus people expressing their frustration for these Christians.
They're like, "Man, they care for not only their own poor, but our poor as well." Like, it was-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Ian Simkins: in a, in an age and an era where like you didn't cross those lines, like you, you take care of your people, we'll take care of ours. These, these followers of the way, these Jesus people were like, "Yeah, anyone who's got a need, come on, come on in."
Like, that is- Right ... that is as radical today as maybe it's ever been, you know? Yeah. And I think there's a real call for Christians to not just, uh, have like a decent rhythm of inviting people in my small group over for dinner. It's like, no, no, there's like a, there's a very real like justice component that I think is really important.
Andrew Camp: Per- love it. Um, and before we wrap up, just a s- few fun questions about food, just because I always like to close. Great. What's one of... What's [00:51:00] one food you refuse to eat?
Ian Simkins: Oh man, I'm embarrassed to admit it. I despise olives. I can't... I try every, every nine to 12 months to see if my taste buds have changed. I think olives are demonic.
I just think they're the... It's just- The w- I know. It's the wor- I wish I liked them. I pride myself on being the guy that can eat anything and, and- Yeah ... cool with anything, but o- olives are my kryptonite, man.
Andrew Camp: Okay. You and my wife can hang out and- Yeah.
Ian Simkins: She's the same way?
Andrew Camp: She does... You know, I, she's never called them demonic.
You've taken it a
Ian Simkins: step fa- Yeah, that was maybe a stretch. That's very...
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. Um, 'cause some like me may call them ang- angelic, um, but
Ian Simkins: you know. Wow, really?
Andrew Camp: Oh. Yeah. Anyway, um- Man ... but-
Ian Simkins: Horrific ...
Andrew Camp: on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?[00:52:00]
Ian Simkins: I mean, oh gosh Uh, my wife and I went on a road trip for our honeymoon, uh, through northeastern Canada.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Ian Simkins: And, uh, one of the stops was on Prince Edward Island. And again, it's our, it was our, it was our honeymoon, you know? So we- Yeah ... it was this s- steakhouse that we, we stumbled into, and I, I'll be honest, the waiter was, like, really...
felt like overselling their steak, you know? And like, "Oh-" Mm-hmm "... because we're an island," and they're, like, breathing this, like, uh, saltwater air and that somehow... And I was like, "All right. This feels pretentious." And then I had some- Portlandia. A little bit. Honestly, it felt like Portlandia. And then I, and then we had some, and I was like, "All right.
I, I think I might be a believer." This, this little- Okay ... steakhouse in Prince Edward Island-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Ian Simkins: was... Again, this was a while ago now, so maybe, maybe my tastes have [00:53:00] evolved. But that stands out in my mind as, like, o- one of the best pieces of steak I've ever had in my life anywhere.
Andrew Camp: Do you remember what the cut was?
Ian Simkins: That's a good question. I don't think we got the same cut. I think she got a filet, and I probably got a, I probably got a rib eye.
Andrew Camp: Okay. You're
Ian Simkins: good then. And again, I, I'm
Andrew Camp: like- Okay. We- Yeah. You, you redeemed yourself with the olive comment.
Ian Simkins: I pr- appreciate it. I will say, uh, I'm also, like, with my bride, and we're like- Yeah
on this road trip. Like, all of the- Yeah ... senses are- Oh, yeah ... high. Yeah. The company could not have been better. You know, like, it was just- Right ... so I'm sure that's contributing to my r- my memory of the steak, but...
Andrew Camp: But no, it, it's an important memory, and yeah.
Ian Simkins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Massive. Um, and finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be?
Oh. So what would be on Ian's table possibly?
Ian Simkins: How many items do I get?
Andrew Camp: It, it's, [00:54:00] it's a question.
Ian Simkins: Okay. I'll k- I'll keep it, I'll keep it concise. But there's, uh, this bar in Dearborn, Michigan, where I'm from, called Miller's, and, uh, the only food they serve, at least when I was a kid, was a burger and a cheeseburger.
And there were no plates. It was served to you on wax paper. Uh, no alterations. They, there's no, there wasn't... My memory was the, wasn't even a bill. You just ate it, and then you went and told the bartender what you had. And this, this cheeseburger from Miller's Bar in Dearborn, Michigan, is, was, like, life-changing to me.
It was-
Andrew Camp: Wow.
Ian Simkins: Um, and again, there's a lot of cuisine in Dearborn. There's, like, some incredible- Right ... you know, kebab and shawarma and all sorts of stuff that's harder to get in Tennessee. But man, that, that burger is hard to pass up, man. That, that's, that- Okay ... would be near the top of my list, [00:55:00] I think.
Andrew Camp: Fair enough Well, Ian, I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Appreciate your new book. Um, if people are interested and wanna learn more about you and, you know, what you're thinking, writing, doing in life, is there a place they can find you?
Ian Simkins: Yeah. Thanks, man. That's really kind. Uh, Instagram @iansimkins, uh, or iansimkins.com or everytableandaltar.com. I think all of those, all of those would be just fine.
Andrew Camp: Perfect. And we'll include those in the show notes. And "Every Table and Altar: Reclaiming Connection in a World of Division, Destruction, and Loneliness" is now available wherever you get your books from Zondervan. Uh, do buy it, read it, um, read it with community around a table.
Ian Simkins: Mm.
Andrew Camp: Uh, so thank you, Ian, uh, for this time.
And if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of "The Biggest Table," where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, [00:56:00] bye.