Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Episode 42 | The “Let Them” Theory Might Be Hurting Your Relationships

The “Let Them” theory—popularized by Mel Robbins—sounds freeing: stop trying to control people and just let them be who they are. But is it wisdom… or a subtle way to avoid conflict, accountability, and emotional repair?
In this episode, Christian counselors Mark Odland (EMDR therapist) and Zack Carter analyze the Let Them theory using real video clips, clinical experience, and a faith-informed psychological lens. We break down when this idea truly brings peace—and when it quietly sabotages intimacy, healing, and leadership in men’s lives.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
  • When the Let Them theory is emotionally freeing—and when it backfires
  • Why acceptance without agency can create resentment instead of peace
  • How trauma, attachment style, and personality affect whether this advice works
  • The difference between letting go and giving up
  • How the Serenity Prayer offers a wiser framework than “Let Them” alone
  • Why some high‑achieving men already "let things go"—and pay a hidden cost
This conversation is especially relevant for men navigating marriage tension, people‑pleasing, burnout, avoidance of conflict, or faith‑based questions about boundaries and responsibility.

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About the Lion Counseling Podcast
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men break free, heal deep, and become the men they were created to be. Hosted by licensed Christian counselors, each episode blends psychology, faith, and real‑world insight to help men lead with clarity, strength, and emotional maturity.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland:

To Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Odland, founder of Lion Counseling, certified EMDR therapist, and I'm joined by Zach Carter, counselor and coach. And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep and become the Lions they were created to be. The let them theory, made popular by Mel Robbins, sounds simple. Stop trying to control people and let them be who they're gonna be.

Mark Odland:

But depending on how it's used, this idea can either free you emotionally or quietly sabotage intimacy, healing, and accountability. So today, we're breaking down when it helps, when it hurts, and how to use it with wisdom. All right, Zach, why don't you kick us off?

Zack Carter:

Sure. Yeah. So as we begin to talk about this theory, which I think has a lot of wisdom in it, we're really going to cover the theory itself, why it's resonating with people, when it's helpful, when it's misused, and how to apply it in relationships and at work in the different areas of your life. But I really want to start by letting Mel Robbins talk about the theory herself. So let's let's play a quick video, and then Mark, you and I can discuss.

Zack Carter:

Alright.

Zack Carter:

So I've been using this thing called the let them theory. I love this. I want you to try it. Here's how it works. The next time you feel left out, your friends all go out to brunch together and they don't invite you.

Zack Carter:

Let them. Or maybe the person you're dating doesn't want a commitment. Let them. Or perhaps your spouse does not wanna do the five k with you. Let them.

Zack Carter:

Your company is laying people off. Let them. You spend so much time and energy trying to control other people and getting emotionally worked up about things that are beyond your control. You can tap into peace and true control if you let them be themselves. And here's the other thing.

Zack Carter:

If you let them, people will then reveal who they truly are. And when they reveal who they truly are to you, you now know what you can choose next that's right for you. So let them.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Before I kick it to you, Mark. Yeah. Before I kick it to you, Mark, the first thing I wanna comment on is the inspirational music at the end. It is perfect.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Well, and she copied my cursive handwriting because I usually sign off with Mark instead of Mel.

Zack Carter:

Did you?

Mark Odland:

That's perfect.

Zack Carter:

That's good. I I love it. So yeah. Let me kick it to you, man. So before we started this, I'd asked if you had heard about this theory, knew anything about it.

Zack Carter:

You said you hadn't heard much about it, and I I hadn't up until this week. And so I'm I'm curious. What are your first first impressions?

Mark Odland:

I mean, I didn't wanna like it, but I kind of do. There's something about not trying to control other people, trying to kind of, I don't know, work an angle, use manipulation, try to figure it out, try to read their mind. You know all that stuff that I see drive people that I care about in my family or my own clients, you know it can drive us crazy. Right? Trying to do all that and it's catchy.

Mark Odland:

I mean, it's catchy the way she's putting it. Just just let them. I mean, truth is they're gonna do it anyway. Like, they're gonna do it without your permission pretty much, but I don't that's my that's my gut reaction so far, Zach. It's just it seems like it could be a practical way for people to just be like, okay.

Mark Odland:

I'm just gonna let them and the whole reveal their they'll reveal their true colors thing. And now I have more information to now decide what to do. That that makes some sense to me too.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And and when I first heard this, I you know, I was like, a lot of these theories that I come across in psychology, was like, all right, I'm going try it out and see how, you know, and you know, I'm married to an amazing woman, but like, as with all couples, like there's little things about me that annoys her and little things about her that, how I don't know if I would say annoy. I I would use a different word. Mhmm. But no.

Zack Carter:

So there's little things that that she does that I would do differently. Right? And so I was like, you know what? When she's doing certain things that are, like, different than I would do, then it's like, alright. Just, like, let her do the thing instead of getting frustrated.

Zack Carter:

So I was like, oh, I'm, like, brief view of this theory. I'm like, yeah. Like, this this kinda makes sense. Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

Zack Carter:

No. I wanna hear I wanna hear what you're

Mark Odland:

gonna say, Zach. Because I I as you're talking, I'm thinking, okay. There are exceptions to this rule.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So I want so I'm like. Yeah, so first and we're going to get to those exceptions, and so I'll be interested in getting your input.

Zack Carter:

So on first glance, I'm like, hey, this is a this is a probably pretty handy theory, but it reminds me of acceptance and commitment therapy. So it kind of has that there's a type of therapy called acceptance and commitment therapy, where it would engage in some processes like this, where it's, there are certain things that are out of our control and the goal is to accept them. It's not to say that I'm okay with it or to give up. That's not what acceptance means. It's just to acknowledge that there are certain things that are out of our control.

Zack Carter:

So I think this theory has half the right answer. And so I wanna take us to the serenity prayer because I think there's a lot of wisdom crammed into the serenity prayer. So for those of you that don't those of you that don't know the prayer, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. There's actually, there's three parts to the serenity prayer. I need to accept things I can't change.

Zack Carter:

I need to change the things I can. And I need to be able to figure out when to use which. Right. And so I think that's what this theory is, is that it gets like half the answer right because there are a bunch of things that we need to accept. And so that's my initial or that's my thoughts after thinking about it a little more deeply.

Zack Carter:

Before we start the benefits section, like the benefits of using this theory, did you have any further thoughts?

Mark Odland:

Yeah, so we're still in the potential downside category here.

Zack Carter:

We're coming up to the downside in a minute. So I want to start with the benefits and then let's go to the critiques.

Mark Odland:

Okay. Okay. Yeah. I I think I I'm I'm very curious that you're seeing two sides of the coin here and I'm I'm yeah. So let's just keep going.

Mark Odland:

Let's keep going and and I'll put put my 2¢ in in a minute here.

Zack Carter:

Okay. Cool. I'll toss it to you in a second. So here here's the benefits I see. So if we're going with that acceptance commitment therapy mindset, or also known as ACT, it talks about diffusion and acceptance.

Zack Carter:

So LetThem incorporates those. So it interrupts people pleasing. It interrupts approval seeking. It interrupts spirals of control where we're like, we just got to control. We just got to control.

Zack Carter:

Right? So we say like, okay, like ultimately, there are certain things that are out of my control and we begin to accept that. That can help us with things like reducing emotional exhaustion. So if you're trying to control people or you're frustrated that this person won't act a certain way or do a certain thing, You just you're just like, man, just okay. They're going to do what they're going to do.

Zack Carter:

It could also help you with yourself. Like if you're a perfectionist or you have anxious attachment. Right? So you're just like, yep. All right.

Zack Carter:

I'm it is what it is. Like, I'm not going to be perfect. And you just you just like, let it go. Right? If you have people that you're worried, if they care, do they love me?

Zack Carter:

Do they not love me? You're like,

Mark Odland:

all right.

Zack Carter:

If they love me, they love me. If they don't, they don't. And then you can just kind of like let go of some of that anxiety you're feeling. Like you were mentioning earlier, it gives you gives you clarification around your values. So if you're not spending that energy trying to control others okay.

Zack Carter:

So now what are you going to do? Like, so when she said the company is doing layoffs or the company won't give you a raise or whatever. Okay. So they're not going to do it. Let them do that.

Zack Carter:

So now what are you going to do? Are you going to stay with this company? Are you going to leave? What are you going to do? So it creates a space for actual choice and agency.

Zack Carter:

Okay, so we're letting go of the things we can't control and accepting the things we can and then trying to engage in some change. Last thing, it works across different diagnoses. So people with ADHD, autism, BPD, OCD, social anxiety, codependency, these, this let them theory can benefit by disrupting that control the uncontrollable loop. Wow. So let me ask you.

Zack Carter:

Can you think of any types of clients that this would be especially powerful for?

Mark Odland:

Man, I mean, I think about clients who I've seen in both sides, and this is something I know we might have a podcast on soon, Zach, is is, estrangement from and I have clients who are estranged from their parents, either by their choice or the other person's choice. I've seen it the other way with, men I work with where their adult children are kind of living their lives and doing their thing and not really caring a whole lot about their parents anymore. And so I see both sides of that and I see this desire to how do I control this other person? How do I make them see something? How do I get them to do something?

Mark Odland:

And sometimes it makes it worse through those attempts. So there's something about surrendering to that, and that can be really freeing. It can feel like a defeat at first, like I'm throwing in the towel and giving up. But then sometimes, I mean we've seen this through the lens of faith too. Sometimes it's precisely when we kind of like finally give up that the thing we wanted all along actually comes full circle and come, you know, comes back to us too.

Mark Odland:

And I don't know what that's about, if that's just a law of psychology or if that's if it's God at work, whatever that or combination of the two. But I do see that. I do see that in my clients. My curiosity, and I don't know what you think about this, Zach, because I think if I remember it, you've dealt with some perfectionism with your clients as well. I wonder if the people pleasing thing shows up equally between males and females with our clients or if it tends to be something that's like because like when she gave the example of I didn't get invited to the brunch, I'm like I don't know when the last time my guys were like, hey we're going to this brunch without you, Mark.

Mark Odland:

Like, brunch? What is brunch? Is that even a thing? So I I

Zack Carter:

you know? Brunch is actually amazing. So keep keep brunch's name out your mouth. Alright?

Mark Odland:

I'm glad we're virtual so you can't slap me right now. It's the Will Smith, Chris Rock of the counseling world.

Zack Carter:

That's right. It would just go viral.

Mark Odland:

That's right.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. I'm very sensitive when it comes to brunch. So no. But please continue.

Mark Odland:

No. That's that's about it. That was my per pound point. Yeah. At least you're a

Zack Carter:

profound point, man. I liked her for a found point. So yeah. No. For sure.

Zack Carter:

She's definitely also speaking to a female audience. Yep. So yeah. So I'm you you you and I both were kind of like, like, let's talk about where this could go wrong. You know, we're both kind of excited, but I wanna, like, once again, give Mel the opportunity to talk about so she acknowledges there's some times where this particular theory isn't applicable.

Zack Carter:

So let's play that. Let's see if these cover the thing she says covers your concerns. And if not, we'll add to them. I'm definitely gonna be adding to them. But let me pull up that second clip real quick, and we'll we'll cover that.

Zack Carter:

K? But there's three moments in time where I don't want you to do that, where I want you to step up. Okay? And I wanna cover these off the bat because I know so many of you are gonna be like, but what about this? So let me just say upfront.

Zack Carter:

If somebody is doing something dangerous or they are discriminating against you, do not let them do that. So for example, if you've got a buddy or a family member that's had a couple drinks, don't let them get behind the wheel of a car. That's not a time to drop the oars and just go with the flow. And so I think that example is very clear. The second example of where you're not gonna just let people do whatever they're gonna do, that's where you need to ask for something or you've gotta advocate for your rights.

Zack Carter:

And I'm gonna give you a really important example about this. Don't ever let somebody determine what they're gonna pay you when you get hired. I'm not kidding about this. And this is really important for you to hear because there was a Pew Research study that was done this year in 2023. 60% of people surveyed said in their past job, they didn't even negotiate their salary.

Zack Carter:

They just let the company pay them whatever. Do not do that. Okay? So if you're in a situation where you need to ask for what you need or advocate for yourself, do not let somebody just to decide those things. Okay?

Zack Carter:

You gotta step up, and you gotta take control in that situation. And finally, if somebody's continuously crossing your boundaries, don't let them do that. If you've expressed them, if you've defined them, you need to hold your boundary. Do not let them just walk all over you like a doormat. Okay?

Zack Carter:

Good.

Zack Carter:

Alright, Mark. Let me throw it to you. Did she cover your concerns or some is she missing some

Mark Odland:

stuff? You know, it was interesting. The first two were, like, very specific. Like, out of all the things to not let them do, it was drinking and salary negotiation. Yep.

Mark Odland:

So I'd be curious to be like, so, Mel Yeah. Tell me what it is about those two situations that really resonate for you.

Zack Carter:

I didn't even go there. Oh, that's interesting. No. Like, what about that annoys you, Mel?

Mark Odland:

Oh, no. No. But valid. I mean, I think her the point is well taken. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

She's making sure that people know that when it comes to safety Mhmm. You know, that that's legit. Like, we don't wanna just throw up our hands and feel helpless.

Zack Carter:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

There are some battles worth fighting. So one is the category of safety.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. I comment on that briefly? Yeah. Please. I would say that would probably just while I'm thinking about it, that would probably also contain I would think she would say this.

Zack Carter:

I think she would agree with this even though I don't know her that well. I would I would assume that would include, like, children and and minors, like teenagers. Like, if they're gonna do something dangerous, don't do that. I'm sure she would probably because that was, a category I was thinking of. And I'm like, well, that she's prop that's probably umbrella covering that as well.

Mark Odland:

I would hope so. These days, people let kids do all sorts of crazy things. But

Zack Carter:

Maybe she would disagree with me.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. But I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

And then the second one, you know, it seems like kind of a self advocacy thing. It's kind of like just be, you know, be be engaged in your own path. Right? Be engaged in your own career trajectory, your own empowerment, that kind of thing. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

But, yeah, I was struck a little bit by I think you're probably right. Those probably encapsulate broader themes. Then the last one feels like a pretty big catch all of boundaries. Right? Don't let them violate your boundaries.

Mark Odland:

It makes me wanna dig into, like, what does that mean exactly for her? Right? And and that a little bit dovetails into one of my potential critiques of it. But so we'll we'll see. We'll see.

Mark Odland:

She maybe she maybe alleviate my my concerns with that last one about the boundaries. But, yeah, what do you think? Well

Zack Carter:

well, I'll give you I'll give you some of the things I I was noticing. Maybe they cover what maybe they cover what you're thinking. And if not

Mark Odland:

Okay.

Zack Carter:

You can now add because at this point, Mel is not gonna get to speak for herself any longer. So

Mark Odland:

Mel, you're welcome to come on our podcast. I know we have just as many subscribers as you do. So it's a

Zack Carter:

We only have a couple less. So one thing, you know, I keep referencing acceptance and commitment therapy in the term acceptance. So acceptance can often be misinterpreted as give up. So if people hear let them, maybe they just stop caring about the relationship instead of trying to engage and correct things that might need to be corrected. You know, and once again, I feel like because, you know, in a one hour podcast, you can only include so many examples.

Zack Carter:

So I wonder if she would push back on that one too much. The the big thing, and this is the big thing that I want, I think is beneficial for a person that I'm guessing Mel is like, and the people that are resonated with this versus someone like me, is that Mel seems like the kind of person who says what she thinks and is willing to engage in conflict. So I wonder if she's the kind of person in in the the particular video. We didn't show the whole thing, the the whole hour, But she talks about a situation with her kids where they didn't plan prompt prompt, quote, unquote, correctly and didn't have everything ready to go. And she was kind of anxious about it.

Zack Carter:

And like, why don't you have the restaurant reservations and you're going to go out with these vehicles? And she's like, kind of freaking out about the fact that they don't have a plan in the way that she wanted it to be. And it seems like she's the kind of person that's going to share that. And so maybe she's an overshare where like she's gonna confront if she wants to confront and people have to tell her, hey, you should probably just let this go. And so my big thing is like a person who might naturally be willing to engage in confrontation probably needs to do the let them theory more often.

Zack Carter:

A person who I'm more naturally like, where I I don't wanna I often don't wanna rock the boat. I often don't wanna engage in confrontation. And I've had to work to be willing to engage in confrontation more. The let them theory could be really destructive for a person like me or a person who's got avoidant attachment styles of like, screw them. I'm just not even going to engage.

Zack Carter:

So that's a big risk in my mind for people who are like me. She's basically giving those people permission to like never engage in conflict. And once again, gave her, she gave her three caveats, so not never, but she gave her caveats. It doesn't teach repair skills. So earlier you referenced estrangement.

Zack Carter:

And so I'm reading a book on estrangement right now and the let them would be a part of what this particular author would argue. It's like the second it's the second stage. The first stage is trying to engage with the person, but in a very specific ways. We don't have enough time today to, like, engage, but, like, estrangement stuff is very difficult and very complicated. So you do engage with the person, but you do it in a very careful way.

Zack Carter:

And then if they don't respond well, you let it go. So this theory doesn't teach repair skills. It doesn't teach how to like connect when you do need to do it. This is something that would be interesting for you to cover in a second is that it can maybe feel invalidating for trauma survivors. Like, just deal with it.

Zack Carter:

Just let it go. Like, what's the big deal? You know? And it's just like, oh, if they're gonna if they're gonna if they're gonna do that, just do it. Once again, she referenced it.

Zack Carter:

Like if people are being abusive, get away from those people, set up your boundaries.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

But some people that are trauma survivors may have difficulty with that. And the last thing, and then I'll throw it to you is over application. And so if you do this enough, do you begin to isolate yourself? And just say anytime anyone hurts or offends you, let it go, just let it go, just let it go, just let it go. And then you just don't engage Right.

Zack Carter:

With people. You're just like, alright. Fine. I'm just gonna let everybody do their thing, and I'm gonna be off by myself. So those are kind of the critiques.

Zack Carter:

Does that cover any of yours, or do you have additional, or do you have comments on any of the critiques I just stated?

Mark Odland:

No. Thanks, Zach. That's, yeah. I think those are really you put it you articulated that very well, and it actually does feel similar to something that I was kind of sensing or feeling as as I was listening to her is, you know, as some of our audience knows, we work with a lot of people. Do individual counseling, marriage counseling, family counseling, but a lot of our people we work with are guys, right?

Mark Odland:

That's kind of our specialty, right? Guys, a lot of times it's men of faith, hardworking guys who are running businesses, are creating stuff, you know, and what I see, I see a theme and I wonder if it would how well it would work for some of the guys I work with. Because a lot of guys that come to me, they are working really hard. They're trying to show love for their family through being a really good provider and they find themselves in our office because other areas of their life aren't working so well. Right.

Mark Odland:

They don't feel great about their connection with their kids or something on the marriage front isn't working, or maybe they're slipping into some addictive behaviors, things like that. And sometimes there's conflict in the marriage. Right. And so how do I put this? I I think that there are quite a few guys that I work with that are used to being the CEO of their work, but they're used to being very, like, docile, and they're already letting everything go in the home to try to keep the peace because they don't have the skills to do this hour long argument again.

Mark Odland:

And they're just like and so they let it go, but it's not like a strategy. It's more like survival. Right? They're already having their version of let it go. And and part of that is a lack of lack of skills or strategy.

Mark Odland:

And part of it is almost like maybe letting go of standards. They've somehow along the way kind of adopted this subconscious reality that my spouse can have standards with all these things I'm supposed to do or not do, but I can't have any standards on my end in the relationship.

Zack Carter:

Uh-oh. Fire. Right? So if I

Mark Odland:

just let it go if I just let it go if I just let it go, then you end up with a guy who's like, he works his fifty hour week. He comes home. He does everything else at home. He just silently is like, don't be resentful. Don't be resentful.

Mark Odland:

Don't be resentful. But he is. And it comes out sideways. Right? Yeah.

Mark Odland:

So that's that's one one piece.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And I've seen that too.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Yeah, Mark. That's such a good point. Like, I've seen that with clients too where they're killing it in the workplace, and then they just Homer Simpson into the bushes when it comes to the family. You know?

Mark Odland:

Well, right. And and they're in that conserve energy, rejuvenate, you know you know, rejuvenate phase where they're trying to, like, muster up enough strength to go out and conquer and kill, you know, kill kill the next day. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

But and again, this might sound like I'm being lopsided, you know, in favor of men or something, but it's just that's that's our reality because of all the men we work with. Right? I know there's two sides to every story and every situation is different, obviously. But I think that your point about trauma is a really good one too. I mean, see that a lot as an EMDR therapist working with trauma.

Mark Odland:

It's easy to say, just say, just let it go when you see the text that they all went to brunch without me. But what if you have three other really painful experiences about being excluded in your life. One in adulthood, one in middle school, and one in elementary school. And they were extremely painful and isolating. What happens is the feeling that you get with this present day situation has a direct line to these pockets of pain from the past that are embedded in those memories.

Mark Odland:

And so you get this surge of feeling of rejection, of of loneliness. And so for some people, and I I think it's worth the try. Like I appreciate Mel giving someone a practical tool to just kind of like flip things in your mind and to be like, all right, what happens if I just let it go and I just focus on my faith, focus on, okay, this person loves me. God loves me. I have value.

Mark Odland:

I might feel rejection, but I'm not a reject. Right? I'm I'm worth good friendships. I'm worth good relationships. And so you just kinda stand tall and you let them do their thing.

Mark Odland:

But depending on the severity of someone's trauma, you might say the words let it go and really really try and even throw that serenity prayer in there but your nervous system is just still not catching up. And if that's the case then you know working with someone like you or Mezak to kind of get to the source of some of those things either through EMDR or you know examining some of the negative beliefs that might be embedded in there with cognitive behavioral therapy. I think that might be a missing link or a missing piece that some people might need to be able to be capable of applying to let it go in the way that they'd like to. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. That's so good, man. So it's way to go us. Let's just make this really complicated. And people who are listening, they're like, I freaking love this theory.

Zack Carter:

It's like, hey, there's a reason it's super catchy. It's applicable in many situations, but we do wanna nuance this out a little bit. And so that's kind of our job. Like, I feel like so much of my job is just nuancing thinking with clients, you know?

Mark Odland:

For sure. And I think if nothing else, I mean, I'm not here to just pick it apart. I mean, I think any anytime someone can take, like, a big psychological idea and, like, translate it for the masses in a way that actually eases suffering Yeah. I appreciate it.

Zack Carter:

Like 100%.

Mark Odland:

Go, Mel. This is awesome. Yeah. It's and and she can't she can't, like, think about, you know discredit her own idea by thinking of every example that where it wouldn't work right? Exactly.

Mark Odland:

But at same time I think yeah it's kind of an assessment for yourself. Like try it, see if it works, and if it doesn't work that might indicate that there is some old births that need to heal. And if that stuff gets healed up, then you're you'll probably be better able to implement that strategy. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

That's well said. So you're kind of dipping into the practical now. So let's let's finish this out talking practical. Yep. So here's kind of how I'm thinking about it in my head.

Zack Carter:

So if we've got a person that's like me, that's more naturally a flea type, like, Hey, I just, I don't want to engage in conflict. I'm going to avoid it at all costs if I can. What should people like me do? So I would say probably practicing engaging in healthy ways once or twice with the person and then let it go on the third attempt. You know, if they if they do a thing three times, okay, fine.

Zack Carter:

Like you've tried twice to communicate and then let it go at that point. As long as once again, the caveats that not emotionally abusive or physically or sexually, all those, right?

Zack Carter:

Of course.

Zack Carter:

And so you begin to build a tolerance and the skills to engage in conflict. Okay. Then for someone who might be more of a fight type, like a fighter, a person who's willing to assert themselves once again, like I assume Mel would be. This is a really good theory for those kinds of people.

Mark Odland:

Sure.

Zack Carter:

And so Jordan Peterson says that in a marriage, if you notice someone does something that you dislike, okay, so you let it go the first time, but you take note, you see it happen a second time. Okay. You've noted that. So you've noted it twice. And then the third time it happens, that's when you engage.

Zack Carter:

And so like, you bring the receipts, okay. Hey, you know, last week you kind of, it felt like you talked down to me when the situation with the groceries or whatever. This week, when we're talking about my job, it felt like you were kind of talking down to me again. And then just now when we were talking about the kids, it felt like you were talking down to me. What can we do to make sure that you feel like you're having your concerns heard while making sure that I feel like I'm not being insulted when we discuss things.

Zack Carter:

Yep. And I think this would be a more nuanced way of going about it. So even with Mel's theory, it's like, all right, yeah, let it go a couple of times. And then if you, hey, if you need to engage, then engage. And then for the other people, it's like, all right, try to engage in that conflict a couple of times and then go back to your natural state of letting it go.

Mark Odland:

I like that, Zach. Yeah. I like that a lot. And I think, you know, for me, I I think, you know, the the words pick your battles kind of comes into play for me too. And, you know, thankfully, I'm blessed to be married to someone who feels like a great partner in life.

Mark Odland:

Like, sometimes our roles overlap, sometimes they're different, but big picture, we're a pretty good team. And so because of that, I feel like I can we can try to let things go a little bit more at times because we just kind of know it'll take care of itself. It'll pass. And then like you said, every so often there's something that feels like, you know what, I'm dropping the ball on something. And so maybe she has to like say, hey, know what, that you know, and address it.

Mark Odland:

Right? Or vice versa. Right? And that's that's part of being human. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

But but I think I think, you know, like, really channeling through personality type like you're doing, I think, is is really important because it's definitely not a one size fits all necessarily.

Zack Carter:

Mhmm. Yeah. It's yeah. I I'm I'm so glad you said that because as you were saying that about you and your wife, I'm like, oh, yeah. I'm really blessed because me and my wife have really good connections, and I'm married to an awesome person as well.

Zack Carter:

And so, like, we both like, it's funny because these strategies were basically, like, the let them theory on her end would be helpful. And then like engaging theory, whatever we would call it is like really helpful on my end because I want to sweep it under the rug. Yeah. She wants to engage in it. We've really had to practice meeting in the middle on that.

Zack Carter:

So that's really Yeah, man. So just as a, as a quick wrap up, the let them theory is a great tool, but it's not a blanket rule. We, we want to combine acceptance with also agency and repair. So you have to be able to discern when a relationship matters enough to reengage. So if they've hurt you enough that you're like, all right, at this point, I'm not going to continue engaging with this person.

Zack Carter:

Okay. Like that, let them theory is really good. Okay. Need to like let this person go. But if you're really trying to connect and repair relationship, then you need to learn those skills as well.

Zack Carter:

So serenity prayer.

Mark Odland:

Yep.

Zack Carter:

One more reminder, like think through that, you know, God give me the serenity and the wisdom to accept the things I can't change, the ability to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. I think that's a really good format to kind of, you know, combine these theories in your life.

Mark Odland:

That's so good, Zach. And as you were sharing that profound point, my weird mind went to how could I create the anti serenity prayer?

Zack Carter:

What does that mean?

Mark Odland:

I would just take everything the opposite. I'll I'll I'll give it I'll show it to you when I finish finish it today. Okay. Perfect. Perfect.

Mark Odland:

But it'll be like an ironic twist where Yeah. People be like, wait a second. I'm not gonna do that. Yeah. Do the opposite.

Mark Odland:

You can't control Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But Let

Zack Carter:

them. Let them, Mark.

Mark Odland:

I'll let them. Alright. Alright. Well, all that being said, great conversation. Couple things you guys might know.

Mark Odland:

It's crazy. Like, out of a 100 people listening to our, you know, our podcast, only one of you is subscribed. So, like, if you're one of those guys who actually has listened this far and has benefited from this content, it would be awesome if you would be willing to subscribe. You can get more content, help help the algorithm, help get the word out to more guys. Right?

Mark Odland:

So thank you in advance if you're willing to do that. And if any of you feels like, hey, maybe it's time for me to be more intentional, with some life coaching or some counseling, some therapy. Zach and I are here to help. Right? That we're passionate about it.

Mark Odland:

It's our calling and, feel free to reach out escapethecagenow.com for a free consult, test the waters, see if it might be a good fit. And, yeah, until next time. Thanks, everybody.