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I help twin and multiples parents go from surviving to thriving: from pregnancy - postpartum - relationships - raising multiples - with global experts and inspiring parent, celebrity and influencer stories.
Are you a new Gen Y or Gen Z parent or parent of twins and multiples? Do you want to thrive, rather than just survive?
Welcome to our show - a modern, step, by step guide to get you best set up for thrivival!
No outdated, frumpy or stuffy content - we're for NEW parents, we are new parents and we have found the best of the best experts, research and stories. If you're time poor - look no further - community and support building, efficiency hacks and tools, pregnancy, symptom management, partner support, body, bust, skin, hair, postpartum recovery, PND, logistics and travel, parenting twin psychology, childcare need-to-knows, returning to work and more!
I'm Emily, a twin and twin mum. I have researched extensively the best tips, efficiency hacks, expert advice. Books, white papers, medical papers, online groups, articles - sifted through it all, for you. I hope this podcast helps you best navigate this exciting time.
If you have guest recommendations or ideas, feedback - please DM my on socials or email hello@dwoh.group
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Podcast: Hey There Thivival
Welcome to the Hey
There Thrivival Podcast.
I'm your host, Emily Haigh, and
in this podcast we talk all things
twins, multiples, and parenthood.
Often parents of multiples will
say that they're facing double the
exhaustion with half the clarity.
So today we are unpacking
real world expert tested
strategies on all things sleep.
That's right.
A very hot topic, especially if you're
not getting much, which is most of us.
Our expert today is a registered nurse.
She's worked at Emergency and also as
a public health nurse with families.
And in addition to this,
she's very skilled in being
a mum She's got five kids.
Two of which are twins, so she
gets this at a deeper level.
Laura Van Luven runs twinsleep.com
where she focuses predominantly
on sleep training Twins.
So this has got lots of gold.
It really is brilliant.
I learn a lot as well that
I wish I'd known earlier.
Now, if you enjoyed our show, make
sure you click subscribe it would
be fantastic if you could also rate
us, because that helps the algorithm
to send the show out to more parents
just like you, to help them be set
up to thrive, not just survive.
Okay, let's jump in.
Emily: Laura, welcome to the,
Hey There Thrivival podcast.
It's lovely to have you here today.
Would you give us an introduction
as to who you are and what you do?
Laura Van Luven: Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm super happy to be here.
my name is Laura Van Luven.
I live in Minneapolis in the
United States, I'm a mom of five.
I have an 11-year-old, I have
9-year-old twin fraternal boys.
I've got a 4-year-old son
and a 17 month old son.
I'm also a registered nurse, I've
been working as a nurse for about
18, 18 years, but, most of my
time has been spent in, emergency.
But I also spent several years as a
maternal child, public health nurse,
which is where I really, developed,
a love of helping moms who are
facing big challenges in their life.
And so, for the past year or so, I've
been, helping twin moms learn how to
get their babies to sleep all night.
so I'm a pediatric sleep consultant
also, and I really have enjoyed
working mostly with twin parents.
I remember, even though my twins are
nine now, I still remember, how hard
it was to figure out sleep for them
and how much my life changed when they
actually started sleeping all night.
So.
Emily: I bet.
I bet.
And would it been interesting
as well, because you had the
one baby before, is that right?
So it was one and then the twins.
Laura Van Luven: Yeah, so my
first daughter, she was two when
she had pretty much just turned
two when my twins were born.
And had a little bit of a rhythm with her.
I knew a little bit about sleep, but
to be honest, when they were born,
she still wasn't sleeping all night.
So we had, yeah, trial by fire those
first few months of, uh, my twins' lives.
Emily: Yeah, I think it's a, a good
lesson and if you have kids after,
it just sets you up, because you've
learned so much and luckily for you,
you had another few, so I'm sure perfect
education for your current occupation.
And so I guess I'd love you to share
with the audience as well more about your
why and how you, you came to this, like
obviously you've had the twins, but I
know there's a bit more of a story there.
So if you want to run through
that, I'd love to hear it.
Laura Van Luven: Yeah.
Okay.
So when my twins were, when we first
found out we were having twins, we were
living in a little country in East Africa
called Djibouti, which is a real place.
and so we thought we were
pregnant with our second baby.
We were really excited, thought,
great, we we're gonna have two kids.
That's kind of what we want.
what we had always planned on.
And then we went for the ultrasound
and we're surprised to see, you
know, that we were having twins.
and it was recommended to us by the
company we were working with and
our doctors that we come back to the
us to, to give birth to our twins.
I don't know if that's still the
recommendation, but anyways, it was
then, so everything went really well.
And, they were born pretty much full
term, and so we went back when they
were three months old, we moved back to
Djibouti, which, was like, I think an
eight or nine hour time change for us.
it, it just obviously huge cultural
shift for, daughter who was two,
she didn't remember living there.
because we'd been in the United
States for about six months.
sleep had already been really bad.
I was still healing from my
c-section and, and, within a couple
months I pretty much broke down.
and just.
Had a, had a mental breakdown
I think you could call it.
And so thankfully the, company
I was working for, the NGO I
was working for was wonderful.
And they had an assignment
for us in Nairobi, Kenya.
So we moved there and then we
ended up living there for the
next two years or so and loved it.
but when our contract ended in
2018, we decided to come back to
my hometown of Minneapolis and
we've been living here ever since.
Emily: Wonderful.
And how long is the flight?
interested to hear you're
traveling with twins
Laura Van Luven: So long.
Um, so when we flew, actually
my parents were, had been hoping
to do a vacation in France.
So what we did was flew direct from
Minneapolis to Paris and my parents
were with us, um, on that flight.
And and then they stayed in France
and hung out for a few weeks and
saw the sights and had a great time.
We, however, had a different experience.
Uh, we then flew direct from Paris
to Djibouti and um, honestly,
I don't remember how long it
was, but I can tell you it was.
Emily: because you're probably exhausted.
Laura Van Luven: Yeah, but you know what?
We had a really gracious flight
attendant who I think just had
mercy on us and, um, moved us to
business class for that flight.
Um, what, which was wonderful, but when
we got off, they had lost our bags.
And, um, you know, flights from
Paris don't come in every day.
So it was a full week that we had nothing.
I mean, and there's no target.
I, well, I don't know, there's no, like,
there's no stores that you can go to.
There's no, was, there's no Amazon, it
was just, it, like find what you can.
Um, I mean, there was a few things.
There was a store called Casino,
which I think is a French, uh, chain.
Um, and so we could get some basic, you
know, diapers and stuff, but like, I,
I had to borrow a pump from my friend,
bottles, you know, and it was all very
expensive to get anything like that.
So, Yeah, we were just kind of roughing it
and we, they actually told us, air France
said, we don't know where your stuff is.
And we had 15 bags.
so I, I kind of like, that was
probably leading up to the breakdown.
And
Emily: gosh,
Laura Van Luven: yeah, we did end up
finding it, so it came in a week later.
but yeah, it
Emily: thank goodness because 15
bags, I imagine's a lot of stuff,
especially with babies and all
the equipment for twins, so, wow.
Okay.
I guess trial.
Trial by fire
Laura Van Luven: Mm-hmm.
Emily: obviously you then learnt
what to do at some point post
that interesting experience.
Laura Van Luven: I learned
a lot of things not to do.
so like moving across the world, I
don't recommend that when you've got,
newborn babies, maybe one is fine, but.
Not when you have three under three.
I don't recommend that, and especially
to a place that's a little bit
remote off the beaten path like
Djibouti is, I don't recommend it.
but yes, I did end up then having
to learn a lot about sleep.
and again, I learned just how,
important sleep was for my own
And I think I also realized how important
wellbeing of mom is for the whole family.
because if mom isn't doing
well, it, the whole family tends
to, you know, also crumble and
start to, you know, not thrive.
Emily: Yeah, I think it's really
important and I think luckily today
there's a bit more knowledge around
that, but, definitely wanna keep
diving into that as we go through.
So thanks for sharing that.
Really interesting story.
it's great to let the audience know
this background and how you landed it,
actually getting and creating twin sleep.
How would you define sleep
training for twins specifically?
Laura Van Luven: Yeah.
Well, I guess the first thing I always
like to tell people is what sleep
training is not because I get a lot
of people thinking that if I am, that
I'm gonna help them sleep, train their
babies, that I'm going to be telling
them to have their babies on a very rigid
schedule put their babies down to cry for
however long it takes the babies to cry.
and usually they, they think it means
to put babies on a schedule that's
not, what their biological rhythms
would, you know, would suit them best.
So what sleep training is, is really
understanding where our children
are developmentally for their sleep.
And finding ways to work with
their natural sleep rhythms
and their natural sleep biology
to promote independent sleep.
I try to, think of it the same
way as any other developmental
task that your baby does.
And you can see this, you know,
that first year of your baby's
lives is it's very clear that
they're, you know, learning a lot.
it's really remarkable to watch.
So think of your babies
when they were first born.
You know, they, we, because we lay
our babies on their backs for sleep
now, because we know how much safer
it is than, than belly sleeping there.
We, we noticed that babies then weren't
learning how to hold their heads up.
And this is obviously a very important
developmental task for babies to learn.
So again, we wanna keep babies
safe and put them to sleep on their
backs, but we also want them to
develop those neck and back muscles.
So doctors have been recommending
doing tummy time as soon as
that baby's cord falls off.
or you, the cord.
Yeah.
After they're born.
so what we do, a lot of people will notice
that their babies can only tolerate like
a couple minutes at a time when they're
newborns, but it's still really important.
So, so it's like sleep, you know,
you can give them, you can just
start to introduce the concept of.
Laying down and falling asleep.
But, but as soon as they're
really struggling, you know,
it's fine to pick them back up.
but as time goes on, as they get used to
being on their tummies more, then they can
tolerate it more and they might actually
learn to enjoy playing on their tummy.
there's some babies that really hate it
so much that moms will put the baby on
their own tummy and they'll do kind of
like tummy to tummy time, um, that way.
So, so there's ways you can
adapt it for your own child.
So the same goes with sleep.
We need to meet them where
they are developmentally.
We need to look at their, um, abilities
and, and what they're comfortable
with and as the parent, what you're
comfortable with, um, in terms of
allowing them to struggle a little bit.
And, and it's okay to allow your child
to struggle a little bit again based
on their age and their abilities.
So that's how I tend to describe sleep
Emily: That's, I love that.
I love that.
'cause I, I mean, I just had no idea what
I, we didn't really sleep, train them.
They slept perfectly hours.
And then at some point it went down, down,
down downhill to 10 wake up a night for
about three months, which really broke us.
And, and we found some guidance
from another twin parent and
kind of had a, a Facebook group,
but really pretty clueless.
And they eventually ended
up sleeping, thank goodness.
But it's, it's interesting to
hear you talk about it, and
that's a very understandable way.
Uh, now Laura, I've looked this up
and there's a number of different
categories and I thought this
would be really interesting
for the audience to go through.
I've seen, there's something called the
extinction method or CIO, which has got a
high cry level, low parental involvement.
and apparently strong evidence, which is.
According to, research.
And then there's graduated
Extinction which has got moderate
crying, chair fading, which
is low to moderate cry level.
It all seems to be around cry level,
and parental level of involvement.
And then there's Pick Up Put down, no cry
gentle, and then scheduled awakenings.
So I'm not necessarily a hundred percent
sure that's definitely the globally
agreed categories, but, what would,
what would you describe if you were
to bucket them and how they differ?
How would you explain that as someone that
actually does this for a, for a living?
Laura Van Luven: Okay.
Well, so what I would say is yes,
these are definitely the categories.
I tend to, describe them more as,
so the one that you listed first,
the Extinction Method, um, was made
famous by, I think it's pronounced Dr.
Weiss Booth.
And he wrote a book called
healthy Sleep Habits.
Happy Baby.
Um, and then he wrote a
twins version, healthy Sleep
Wow.
Twins.
Emily: Really never heard of it.
Okay.
There you go.
Laura Van Luven: And so basically it
goes through, it does have a lot of,
you know, scientific understanding
of sleep, but he does definitely,
uh, endorse the Cry it Out method.
So he, uh, I think it's around, three
or four months, somewhere in there.
So don't quote me on it because I'm
not actually an expert in the Cry It
Out method because I don't use it.
but he literally says, you know, if
your babies are growing well and they're
well fed, go ahead and they're safe.
Put them in their safe environments,
close the door, and off you go.
go to your bed and let them figure it out.
so that is the Cry it Out method.
So that's more on the, if we're
thinking of like a scale of, uh,
parental involvement that's more
on one kind of extreme side where
it's like no parental involvement.
Um, and then there's something
like intermediate where
there might be some crying.
Um, and this is where kind of the ferber
method can land some, some people think
it's more on the extreme side, but
it's not quite as extreme as the full
cry it out extinction method, right?
because with Ferber you are still
going in and checking on your baby or
babies, but you're extending that time
more and more based on the method and
not necessarily based on your own,
um, instinct or what your babies need.
So, uh, so it's a little more on the
extreme crying side, and then there's
some more intermediate, which is sort
of that chair and fading methods.
And then there's the gentler method.
Pick up put down, um, is a, is a
gentler method depending on kind
of how you implement it and then
scheduled a scheduled awakenings.
You know, I don't know that that's
really a great sleep training,
um, method in and of itself.
There are times where you could use
it to see if it helps, uh, a certain
type of problem, like waking up
early in the morning, like before
6:00 AM sometimes doing scheduled
awakenings could help with that.
Um, if nothing else is helping.
Sometimes I think dream feeds fall
into this category where, you know,
maybe you put your babies down at
eight o'clock and you go to bed at
11 o'clock and you know they're gonna
be needing a feeding pretty soon.
So you go in and try not to wake them and
you feed them and then put them back down.
You know, that tends to work maybe
in those early weeks, but after about
two months, it's really not, um, it's
not helpful for, for your babies.
So, so that's kind of an
explanation of how I look at it.
So I do, in my program and with my
clients, I don't teach one method.
I think, know, based on baby's ages
and parental, um, style and the
family's situation, I usually, um,
try to guide them to choose, uh, one
or two of these methods to try, um.
Again, it depends on the age of
the baby is, is kind of a big one.
And when it comes to, um, twins, of
course most twins are born early.
Um, but if they are,
it, it kind of depends.
If they were born more than
four weeks early, we might
need to adjust a little bit.
But for the most part, even if they're
not meeting their developmental tasks
yet for their birthday, so a lot of
times actually they can for sleep.
so even if they were born six weeks early,
we might still be able to treat them as,
you know, a three month old or a four
month old, um, based on their birthday.
Um, even if they're not quite
doing the things a four month
old should in other areas.
Um, and that I think has to do with
just their exposure to light and
sound and being outside the womb.
Um, I couldn't give you a
definite answer on why that is,
but I, I believe that's why, um.
So those are kind of the methods we use.
And it, and also we wanna consider,
um, do we have one parent at bedtime?
Maybe the other parent works
or maybe it's a single parent.
Maybe there's this older sibling
in the house, like a 2-year-old
who needs the other parent.
So I try to like, take
all of that into account.
Um, and that's how I would kind
of try to direct the family.
Emily: Great.
So interesting, talking through all
that and hearing your approach and
it being intuitive and there being,
flexibility there because there are
some books or resources that are
certainly hard this way or this way.
And I do now remember it is a bit of
a fog because of, you know, that first
stage of having twins and the hormones.
But I do remember my partner
had found a book and he's like,
we've gotta follow this book.
And we'd been using something completely
different and I was just, in a very deep
fog and really struggling to work out
what, which is good, why is it good?
I've got no idea.
And you don't know.
And especially when you're in
that depth, it's really hard.
So hearing you talk about The phases
and things like intuition and then the
baby, yeah, really I find that helpful.
So hopefully people do.
Laura Van Luven: What I would say too
is I think that the sleep training
method, it's, IM, I'll say it's
important, but it's not the thing
that is gonna help your baby sleep.
Right.
having a method or a plan that has some
type of evidence behind it is gonna be
very helpful, but we also need to make
sure even if a parent, I tell people
this too, um, because some people do
wanna do cried out and I understand.
I don't, I just, I don't teach
it, I don't recommend it.
Um, but I don't judge people
that actually wanna do it.
But you're gonna have less crying if you
are implementing a good daytime routine,
if you've got a good sleep environment
and if you've got a good bedtime routine.
So we need to remember all of those
things play into whichever sleep training.
It doesn't matter which, if you
use like the best researched sleep
training method, if your daytime is a
mess, if your bedtime is a mess, and
if your sleep environment isn't set
up properly, then you're gonna have
problems no matter what method you use.
Emily: That's really, interesting
and useful information.
I love that.
Geez, I wish I had you when I was
struggling and we were, yeah, not, not,
Laura Van Luven: I had me now, you know,
Emily: yeah, Well now
we're everybody else.
So hopefully everyone listening
is, is going to benefit.
That is the goal.
So have you also done more
than twins in terms of training
or is it specifically twins?
Have you ever had triplets, quads,
Laura Van Luven: I've never officially
worked with triplets as a sleep
coach, but as a nurse as a public
health nurse And emergency room nurse.
Yes.
I, I mean, I've seen, I've talked
to triplet parents, also just as
like in my personal life, but not,
Yeah.
Not as a sleep trainer.
Yeah.
Emily: Go.
Yeah, I do wonder how it differs.
I just, I interviewed the a, a mom
of quadruplets recently, and I've
just been speaking to a mom of
twins who's triplets are coming.
Laura Van Luven: Yeah.
Emily: Interesting to think
about how that might differ.
Laura Van Luven: Yes.
And some of the same concepts would
apply no matter what still having to
make sure you have a routine that you
can do based on how many adult, the
adult to baby ratio, that you have.
And you would have to be, very
aware of, their daytime routine.
And a bedtime routine that would
work for your family, as it is.
So, and then also taking into
account any, you know, most triplet
and quadruplet babies are born
early, earlier even than twins.
and so taking that kind of concept into
account of what else are they needing in
terms of their medical, medical needs.
So,
Emily: Got it.
Yeah.
Okay, well that's a little, a little shout
out for those that are listening 'cause
there are a couple of people expecting,
triplets that definitely listen.
Actually maybe a few more than a couple.
okay.
So I guess with particular methods
for twins is, uh, there anything in
particular to avoid or that you recommend
in terms of twins with the, the methods?
Laura Van Luven: again, I think it
depends in terms of the methods,
there's not one that I would say never.
Well, okay.
The one that I would say
don't try with twins.
Well, I, mean you could try it, right?
I had a family, they had, their twins
were their fifth and sixth babies they
had been used, so they had a lot of
experience and they had used that chair
method for all of their other kids.
And it worked great.
they came to me because what they had
done with four other children, which
obviously they've got great experience,
it wasn't working for their twins.
And I've talked to a couple
other twin, um, sleep experts.
And this is a method that just,
it doesn't seem to work for twins.
so, um, I'm not sure why possible that
it's just too many people in the room.
I'm not, I'm not sure, just
kind of for too long of a time
when the twins are more aware.
Now, when they're newborns, it
doesn't really matter all that much.
But as they're getting older,
of course they're getting more
aware of like, what's going on.
And it might feel more like, um, a party.
Emily: Got it.
And so what?
What would you, how would you
describe this chair method?
because I, I think, is it you
sit on a chair and pat them
Laura Van Luven: So some
parents will, yeah, you sit
on a chair, you can pat them.
you can, or you can, or you can
give verbal reassurance or you
can just be present in the room.
It's kind of a.
Uh, parental discretion, but it's
being in a chair and each night you
move it further and further away.
so there are a couple variations
of it, depending again, on age,
but, um, but that is kind of the,
yeah, that's the chair method.
I think you mentioned that, um, as
you were going through the list.
So,
Emily: I did.
Laura Van Luven: I mean, if
you really love it and wanna
try it, I think go for it.
But, it's not my favorite one for twins.
Again, I fall somewhere in between,
like, uh, you know, with newborns,
I like a lot of hands-on if possible
just because, um, it, it can be tough
to, to actually get a newborn to, to
settle, especially in the evenings.
so a lot of, you know, soothing
methods, um, you know, and, and
using kind of what, what you can.
So making sure you've got swaddles and
pacifiers and you know, if you need
to use, like, mean, I'm okay with some
people are very against using any kind
of like swing or bassinets that rock.
think when you have twins and one
parent, if that's what helps soothe
your baby, then go ahead and use it.
Um, it does take some, uh, discipline
to wean them off of those things.
What I find, um.
Is that when, when most people come to
me, it's around the four month stage.
Um, and by then parents and I think
you would maybe fall in this category,
you would've, and I would've too,
is you kind of are doing what you
can in those first three months
and you figure out what works.
Like if I rock the babies just like
this, if I swaddle them just like this,
if I get them up just at this time
and feed them, it all works, right?
And then everything kind of changes at
four months and now what was working
is all of a sudden not gonna work.
And so that's when we have to
think about some of the more
intermediate methods, like allowing
them to cry a little bit more.
Um.
And then going in and doing a soothing
and trying to take away the soothing,
whatever it is, whether it's holding or
rocking bit more at a time each night.
Um, so that is one way to, to try it.
If you have a little more
parental involvement.
and sometimes have a set of twins
where one twin is just fine, if you
lay them down and they just go to
sleep, I have had that and the other
twin will cry and cry and cry, um,
and needs a little more hands-on.
So if you're in that situation, then
you can do, um, but again, for the
most part, sleep method you're using,
what we're trying to do is sort of get
away from whatever it was that they
needed to fall asleep and start to
slowly wean them off of that thing.
If it involves parent
parental involvement,
Emily: Got it.
Laura Van Luven: If they need to be
swaddled to fall asleep, that's fine.
Until they're starting to roll over.
Now we're gonna have to, um, take away
the swaddle and find something different.
Uh, or if they're needing to be rocked
all night, well, you, you can't, you
can't do that, um, and keep your sanity.
Right.
but if it's like a pacifier and
they're able to put it in their
mouth, then that's fine to keep that.
If it's not causing a problem or if
it's white noise that they need to fall
asleep, I mean, that should be fine
because that doesn't involve, you know,
a, a parent going in and tending to them.
You know, you can keep that on all night,
or at least while they're falling asleep
if you don't want it on all night either.
So,
Emily: Good.
Laura Van Luven: yeah.
Emily: Great, great tips.
So essentially in the beginning
you might start more hands on and
logistically as you go on, because of
the culmination of exhaustion, sleep
recovery, et cetera, you may be wanting
to step away from being more physical
and also when you're setting 'em up,
considering what logistical elements you
use and whether that requires parental
involvement or not, and therefore is.
More sustainable.
That, that's, like a
light bulb moment for me.
I think that even that, summary
in itself is, is just beautiful,
that piece of education.
So thank you for sharing that.
Let's keep going.
So, when people are pregnant,
they, I mean, there's different
phases of people listening.
Some people are pregnant, some
people are in the trenches in that
first, you know, six months year
or they've even got older kids.
I've got friends with twins
and they are free of their
cots and they are not sleeping.
So there's, there's a
lot of, different phases.
But at a high level, would you recommend
that a parent that is expecting do
education during pregnancy if possible?
And if so, like what would be high level,
or even if we jump the fence to they've
arrived at X stage, are the key areas
of education that you think people.
Can look at, so right now, maybe
something really simple, like top
three things to take a look at.
So you, you're less likely to have
horrific traumatic lack of sleep.
Laura Van Luven: Well,
okay, so top three things.
I think during the newborn phase,
the best thing truly is, is to
know, first of all, I always want
people to think about safety.
You know, twin families, like I said.
Um.
do tend to rely on things
that work and those might not
be the things that are safe.
So, you know, I've worked with families
who have done things like lay their twins
in bouncy seats for weeks and weeks and
weeks, and they sleep in those bouncy
seats until like three months even.
Um, and so that's not as, that's not safe.
And again, I don't, I'm not judging right,
like, I'm just saying think about like,
what are some ways we can start making
sure these babies are safe early on?
Um.
Even when things are hard.
But, so I think twin families do tend
to rely on some of those props or
crutches, I guess you could call it
early on, just because they are far
more, and they kind of hit that breaking
point earlier than a singleton parent
just because you are having double
the wake up, double the feed at night.
Um, most of the moms that are
recovering from a C-section, which
is just truly, uh, just, it's,
it's a lot harder on your body.
I've done both.
And c-section, at least for me, was
a much more challenging experience,
um, in terms of my physical healing.
So we're just in a little
more of a desperate place.
Uh, and so I, I think really understanding
that, that you, you might feel
that way when your twins are born.
And so just having a good, safe sleep
space for your babies and a plan for, you
know, if you are starting to feel like
you wanna do other unsafe things, um.
What can you do instead?
Um, so again, making sure
you do have good swaddles.
Um, I always recommend,
um, for soothing practices.
I love, uh, Dr.
Harvey Carps, the Five S's, which I
don't know if you know those, it's
from his book or he has videos called
The Happiest Baby on the Block.
So it's swinging, sideline,
sucking, um, swaddling and shushing,
like a loud shushing sound.
So knowing just how to like
calm and comfort your baby.
Um, and then it's okay in the
newborn phase to rock your babies
to sleep and then lay them down.
That's fine.
Um, you are not ruining
sleep training for them.
So just making sure, again, number
one is safety and understanding.
Like back to sleep.
They need their own space
following your country's
guidelines when it comes to sleep.
So I'm in America and um, here it's
recommended that babies sleep in their
own cribs or their own bassinets or
in an approved twin bassinet where
they each have their own space.
I know in other countries that
may not be the recommendation.
and I know from experience that
in places like Djibouti, um,
sleeping just looks different
than it does here in Minneapolis.
There's not big.
Uh, thick comforters like we
have, or even maybe a pillow,
like what I sleep with here.
So important to follow
your country's guidelines.
then the second thing is, especially
for newborn, is I think moms, we
get enough like, pressure put on
us to, to do everything perfect.
you know, in those first few months,
it's okay not to figure out sleep.
Like it's okay to, to be tired, and to
ask for help when you can, you know,
if you have anyone in your life that is
willing to, you know, help you, whether
it's making meals, cleaning your house,
or, or even watching your babies for you.
so you can take a nap and accepting that.
Um, and just being okay with accepting the
help and things not being just perfect.
Yes, practicing putting your newborns
down when they're just in that drowsy
but awake time great to do, but if they
are not tolerating it, that's okay.
Like if they need you to
rock them to sleep, okay.
You know, do what you can to, to
keep them safe and you safe and to
get some sleep, if that makes sense.
Emily: It does.
So don't put too much pressure on
yourself and be aware that there
might be, I guess, a time where you'll
need that education a bit more after
they're less sleepy and more awake.
Laura Van Luven: yeah, and just know that
the four month sleep regression is real.
And, and, and sometimes it's more
real for some babies than others.
but that things are gonna change.
You know, especially I think first
time parents don't always realise this.
I certainly didn't with my first it
felt like this is how it's always
gonna be I have to shape, you
know, everything about this child.
And the truth is that things are, your
babies in those first few years are
constantly changing and they, their
personalities and their interests
and their biological rhythms and
drive is going to shape a lot of
how they handle certain situations.
And yes, there is definitely a major
role that parents play and also
can't control everything as to how
our babies react, um, to different
situations and developmental stages.
Emily: That's really helpful information.
And just having that mindset going
into it would've helped me to be
honest if I had knew all those things.
let's go into that next piece
because we've talked a little
bit about the, the sleep phases.
And again, I've done a bit of
high level research as you know.
So there's different stages based on
newborn, infant, toddler, in terms
of sleep patterns, there's circadian
rhythm, which is our biological clocks.
And when they begin to sink, and
again, that happens as we get older.
And again, babies are not
aware, more aware, and then
different things are happening.
And then there's signs of
sleep readiness as well.
So then giving cues, and then there's
regressions, which we've mentioned, which.
I mean, obviously would be
overlaid with the, the growth
and the biological changes.
So I'd love you, to talk through at a
high level, if we were to walk someone
through that from, the different buckets,
so based on age zero to blah and then
so on, how would you walk someone
through that at a high level and, and
what they might, expect or be aware of?
Laura Van Luven: Yeah.
So in the first few months of a
child's life, I've heard it said that
they're not actually ready to be born.
But our bodies can only carry these
humans for a certain number of weeks
before we just, we have to get them
out of our body, but the baby themself
is not actually ready to be outside.
I've heard that said by
Emily: Wow.
Laura Van Luven: Uh, yeah.
Emily: Is that, is that
because we stood up?
I heard that because we stood up.
Babies are born early because most
animals are on all floors, and so
Laura Van Luven: sure.
Emily: we stood, I don't know
if that's accurate, but is
that, no, maybe that's not.
Laura Van Luven: I haven't heard, that's
why I mean, personally, I like to think
of it as a time where, um, it's, it's
a great, yeah, because you think of
like a giraffe, you know, they're born
and they just stand up and run off.
Right.
But a baby needs so
much from their parent.
And I like to think of it more as like,
because we have higher order thinking and
we do have to build not just a physical
attachment to our children, but we need
to build, our children absolutely need
an emotional attachment from the parents.
So it's not just physiological to stay
alive, it's, they actually, you know, you
think of the wire monkey study, right?
Like, you can give giraffe
milk and it'll be fine.
It doesn't need to be like snuggled
and stuff to live, but a baby does.
A baby absolutely needs that.
love and care that a parent provides.
and so I think like the fact
that the baby is so vulnerable.
And our brains, um, have a, you know,
there is a chemi, a a chemical reaction
that we have when we see a baby,
um, that, you know, induces a lot of
these hormones, the bonding hormones.
and so, so it does create this
like, chain reaction of, of love.
And so that's how we actually learn to,
to love our children during those first
few weeks, because they do need us,
um, in that, in such a special way that
other animals don't get to experience.
So, yeah, I don't know if
that answers your question.
Uh, that's just my own, so, so babies
aren't quite ready to be on the outside.
So when their brains are, when they're
born, they, they have all these like
neurons that are like ready, they're
ready to attach, but they're not,
they're not there yet, you know,
so they need to attach to different
pathways as they learn and grow.
And so their sleep is very disorganized.
They, they cannot stay asleep
for long periods of time.
And then you couple that with, um,
just some of those physical needs where
their stomachs are very small and so
they're now, they're hungry and they
haven't experienced hunger in the womb.
and they're not able to hold that
much food at a, their milk at a time.
And so they need to be fed very often.
Um, and then they also have,
may have like gas pains because
they're not used to having, you
know, anything in their GI tract.
And so all that is new, um, for
them and, and it can be very
disruptive and disturbing to
their little neurological systems.
So, so the first few months, uh, baby is
just, again, the sleeping can be erratic.
Maybe they'll take longer
stretches of sleep during the day.
And then not as long in the nighttime.
You know, they're kind of
figuring out like day from night.
That's a real thing.
By about four months though, they've
now been exposed to light and sound, and
so they do go through a big biological
change where they now are starting to
be able to sleep more like an adult,
and they're not quite there yet.
But they're, they're also, uh, going to
be much more aware of their surroundings.
So I have moms come to me sometimes
who will say, well, we've been taking
our morning walk every day, and that's
their first nap, which is great.
Or we'll be driving and I always have
to drive my older kid to school, and
they sleep on the way and on the way
back, and that's their first nap.
And it seems to just work,
but then by about four or five
months, it's not working anymore
because the babies are more aware.
They're outside and like, oh, a
bird is singing or wind or sun.
And, um, and it's interesting,
whereas, you know, a newborn
doesn't notice these things.
Um, and uh, so as they're waking up,
I, I always say like the first year,
it's like watching somebody wake up
slowly for the first time, right?
So as they're kind of becoming
more aware of the world around
them, four months, that's when you
know they are, and they're, and.
Brain n neurons are starting to change.
Um, they can have like this big
disruption in their sleep patterns.
Um, but the good news is, you know, if
you support your babies through that
period, and the, and the, the bad news
is usually don't go through it at the
same time, so it can last two weeks.
So you could be looking at
four weeks of sleep regression.
if you are, if you are so
lucky as a twin parent.
Um, but the good news is
on the other side of it,
Emily: I wonder if that's
what happened to me.
It probably is.
We went, we had three months, so maybe
it was Yeah, the different babies.
There you go.
Laura Van Luven: yeah, so, so knowing
that then, but then they can start
to take longer naps, um, and a
little bit more predictable naps.
And they can start to sleep longer again,
you may have to support them in learning
how to do that or learning that they're
capable of that a parent, but they are
at that point, they are capable of it.
Now that you may have to look at
their gestational age when it comes
to the four month sleep regression.
Emily: Got it.
So the actual due date versus when
they came out early for twins.
So twins is 37 to 38 weeks
Laura Van Luven: If they were born more
than four weeks from their due date,
you may have to, uh, that you may notice
that it's, by their just, yeah, by their
gestational age, by their due date, so,
Emily: Great tip.
Okay.
And then what happens after this
four, around the four month or so?
I think we got hit around
six months, but what's next?
What's the next call out?
Laura Van Luven: that's really, um,
actually the good news around four
months is when your babies are ready
for, if you, well, I recommend it
to families, especially families of
multiples, parent led daytime routine.
So this doesn't mean like,
okay, well I want them to nap
at this time and this time.
No, it's looking at their patterns.
It's looking at are good wake windows for
them, when do they start, when do I notice
about time that they start to get sleepy?
And so you craft a schedule around
what you're already noticing and
what you know about their age.
Wake windows and um, you then decide,
so be up till then you're just kind
of following their lead, right?
The newborns, you're like,
oh, tired, lay them down.
Um, and you might still see a little bit
of a pattern emerging, but then it kind
of gets all shaken up around four months.
But at four months after they've, you
know, gone through that regression and you
may or may not even notice the regression,
but um, around four months you can
start saying, nap time is at this time.
And whether or not they seem tired,
you, you can just lay them down and
start allowing them to learn what nap
time means and that it's time to sleep.
And start really making some of those
sleep associations for them so that
they know it's nap time, go to sleep.
And again, you're working
with their biological needs.
It's not just about the parent
deciding arbitrarily, like,
this is when I want them to nap.
Right.
Um, but it's us knowing this is
Emily: Yeah.
Laura Van Luven: Um, and then, so really
the napping is, you'll start to see
earlier on like six months till about
15 months, they'll take shorter, like
multiple shorter naps during the day.
So somewhere between two to three naps
and it's maybe like an hour to an hour
and a half, maybe two hours, some of them.
Um, but they're kind of spreading
out their sleep needs throughout
the day, and maybe they stay
up a little bit later at night.
Maybe they're up till seven 30, maybe
even eight o'clock, and they'll still
sleep through until 7:00 AM by about a
year and a half, maybe like 15 months.
Now they're really starting to be
able to consolidate their sleep,
where they usually can sleep a solid
12 hours at night, which often means
they're only taking one nap a day.
So most babies aren't ready for
that until they're about 15 months.
Um, so sometimes people will think,
well, I should, you know, even at a
year old, I should just put them on
a, on one nap because they, they seem
like, you know, they're not, they're
not tired enough at night, but really,
um, we don't wanna go down to one nap
until they're about 15 months old.
so, um, and then you'll start to
see a longer night, and maybe you'll
have to even move up the bedtime
to seven, sometimes even 6:30 PM
and then they'll sleep all night
and just need that one nap a day.
So the hours that they're
sleeping may not change.
They may get the same amount of
hours, but it's more consolidated.
Um.
Yeah, and babies just do have a
higher need, sleep need because they
are growing so much and so fast.
And I think it's like nature's
way of giving parents a
little bit of a break too.
Um, so, um, it's, it really, really is.
And so think that, um, know, the, the
naps are really just to prevent babies.
It's, it's easy for
babies to get overtired.
So if you've ever, like, I used to
work the night shift, um, in my first
job as a nurse and I would get home at
like eight o'clock and maybe get into
bed by like 9:00 AM and then I'd be
so tired that I couldn't fall asleep.
So if you think of a time, I dunno if you
ever, maybe were in school and you pulled
an all-nighter or, or something like
that, and you get so tired that by the
time you lay down you cannot fall asleep.
it takes a lot for an
adult to get to that point.
But for a baby.
It's pretty easy to get to that point.
so the naps are allowing our babies to
not be tired, not be overtired by the time
bedtime rolls around, otherwise they're
gonna be so, so denying a baby their naps
to try to get them to sleep all night is
gonna backfire because you're, what you're
doing is you're making them overtired.
So they're gonna cry more at bedtime, and
they're gonna wake up more in the night,
and they're gonna be harder to get back
to sleep in the middle of the night.
So then you're gonna start relying on
things like rocking to sleep, feeding to
sleep, bringing them into bed with you.
and now you're in like a cycle, and then
you think they won't nap, they'll take
short naps because they're overtired.
Um, and it's just because they do
have that higher, that that lower
threshold for getting o overtired.
Emily: That's a great tip.
So being aware that if you are, yeah,
if you're going to the over tired zone,
it can create a whole host of issues.
So being able to recognize.
Tired science sounds
like the, advice there.
Laura Van Luven: Yes.
Emily: Okay.
Very helpful.
And then what happens post that?
we've talked up, so a year and then
two to three and and three to four.
What's, what's one expect after that?
I'm interested specifically as
well because I'm just in that
phase, but love to hear your
explanation for the audience as well.
Laura Van Luven: So this probably, uh,
is not what you wanna hear, but by three
years old, they should not need naps.
if you are starting to see, yeah, if
you're starting to see, bedtime battles,
if they're taking a two hour nap in the
afternoon, still at three years old,
or they start getting up really early,
It may be because they do
not need their nap anymore.
Emily: Hi.
Laura Van Luven: sleep needs
to drop, by three years old.
They, uh, they just
shouldn't be having a nap.
Sometimes that means
doing an earlier bedtime.
Um, but that is, that's where we're at.
By that age, by
Emily: that to me.
So my boys are turning three soon,
Laura Van Luven: Mm-hmm.
Emily: they're still sleeping.
So they're sleeping at daycare and
they go to bed at, about seven 30 ish.
and they sleep at daycare sometimes
still an hour to two hours a day.
So tell me, is that wrong?
What am I doing?
Laura Van Luven: Okay.
I wouldn't say it's wrong.
Look, if they are going to bed at seven 30
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Laura Van Luven: they're sleeping all
night, why, why fix what's not broken?
Right?
Uh, it's more if you start
noticing that now they're not.
Going to bed at 7.30.
They're cranky.
They're getting up way too early,
they're waking up a lot in the night.
Um, or they just start not sleeping
at nap time, that's because it,
they're, they're showing you that
they're ready to drop the nap.
Emily: Okay.
Would you advise parents
to reduce those naps down?
for example, saying to daycare or
for us as well to make sure they're
not sleeping, up to two hours.
is there any, merit to doing that
because they, they do seem to be
sleeping okay, but I must admit I
don't understand from a biological or
a circadian rhythm or whatever else.
So love your thoughts on that.
Laura Van Luven: Um, so I think
it's always good to have really
good communication with the daycare,
and let them know if things are
starting to go awry at bedtime.
If you're starting to have trouble at
bedtime and you suspect that it could be
because they're sleeping too long during
their naps at daycare, it's really good
idea to talk to your daycare and let
them know that you're having trouble.
And could they shorten the nap
or eliminate the nap altogether
and just do like a quiet time.
here where I live, my 4-year-old goes
to preschool and we are our state.
The state of Minnesota does
require preschools to offer a nap
to four and even five-year-olds.
Obviously they can't force the children to
nap, but they do force, they, I shouldn't
say force, they do require the school to
offer a nap and have a dedicated nap time.
I do also work within that, you know, as
a parent, like I, I too notice that, my
son has more difficulty at bedtime when
he's actually fallen asleep at preschool.
I just have had a really good,
rapport with his preschool teachers.
They're fantastic and they
always will tell me he fell
asleep for about this long.
They're so wonderful
about letting me know.
And then I know that going into
bedtime that maybe I am gonna push
bedtime back, you know, 15, 30 minutes
and then I'm not gonna have the
same like battle that I might have
if I try to put 'em down too soon.
So, so that's, I think that's my best
tip when it comes to napping is just
having really good communication with
your daycare, if that's your situation.
Emily: Got it.
Okay.
Good to be aware of.
I must admit, I haven't
been super conscious of it.
They just seem to be,
they seem to be okay.
We, and we know that,
that the end is coming.
Just, we really enjoy that downtime.
I think like a lot of parents, but
obviously, yeah, would not want
them to be having issues with that.
Laura Van Luven: what I do recommend,
and with twins it can be a little bit
tricky because one might actually keep
the nap a little longer than the other.
So it's a great idea to implement
a quiet time because you do
still need that time to yourself.
Personally, I found this is actually where
things are a little bit easier with twins.
I know it's kind of crazy to think
about that, but my twins, what I
did what I recommend to parents
is they have a special quiet time
basket or toy that they're allowed
to play with only at quiet time.
And that might just be an hour.
it might be a little bit longer
if you feel that they need it.
Um, but I wouldn't go,
obviously, more than two hours
would be absolutely the max.
Um, so I bought for my twins when I
started noticing they were dropping
their nap, I got them a set of magnet
tiles, so it's a quiet thing, and
we just literally called them quiet
time toys and they were only allowed
to play with it at quiet time.
So we would pull it out.
They could play in their room times.
I would come in and one of them,
he would have like the magnets.
Like all over him.
and he'd be fall, he'd be asleep
on the bed and the other one would
just be kind of quietly playing
in the corner with the mag.
Tells they were like
an engaging enough toy.
Um, but there's other things that
parents do, you know, a basket with
little books, other toys, just something
that you're okay with them playing with
unsupervised, um, to, to allow them to
still have that downtime in the afternoon
and for you to have that downtime.
So.
Emily: Wow.
These are things I just have not
thought about, but I love those tips and
hopefully everyone's finding them useful.
I do have a lot of friends that
their kids are in the same age
as me, and they all have twins.
We've got a huge community,
so everybody listening.
You are welcome.
Laura's coming in with the tips.
we talked a bit about, sleep regressions.
I might just say with, with partners
and going through those phases.
I mean, if someone has a, a partner and
they're going through the different sleep,
is there anything that you would recommend
that a partner can do specifically as a
partner that wouldn't be relevant to the
birth mom, for example, like that advocacy
or when the mom is in the fog, i.e.
myself and think most of us out there, do
you tend to having your recommendations
about what their role can be?
because I know sometimes for a partner it
can be a bit of a different experience,
but just as we've gone through those
different age brackets, I did want
to see if there's anything that you,
might call out to partners to, to know
of and be aware of through the phases.
Laura Van Luven: I think again,
the biggest thing is to have good
communication and to remind each
other that you are on the same team.
You want the same thing, you
want a thriving, rested family.
And you know, you might have different
ideas about how to get there.
but if you can have a good communication
and have a plan that you stick to when
it comes to how you're gonna handle night
wakings and bedtime, and just really
support each other in that and have
grace for each other and know that, you
know, neither one is gonna be perfect.
That's the biggest thing.
you, when my twins were probably
about three weeks old, so this
was in the early, early days.
We were still living in Minneapolis.
We hadn't gone back to Djibouti yet.
My husband and I were switching off the
night, so he would take the first shift
while I slept, and then, um, I would
take the next shift while he slept and
then he would get up and go to work.
Um, and I was just dying.
Like I, I could not handle that.
just getting like, I think I was
getting like five hours of sleep,
which sounds amazing, but it was
just I was also getting up and
pumping, so I guess it wasn't really
quite a full five hours of sleep.
Um, but one day he found me just like.
Curled up on my bed crying in the fetal
position, and he was like, oh my gosh,
we have to do something different.
And I feel like he really
advocated for me in that moment.
Um, you know, we had just, I
don't know how it is in Australia,
but in America what we do is
we pay our taxes once a year.
And so we have to file
with the government.
And you kind of are wondering like,
did I overpay, did I underpay?
Well, thankfully that year we had
overpaid on our taxes, so we were
getting a refund from the government.
And um, you know, it was a lot, it
was a lot more than we had expected.
And so I was kind of like, well, we
should do something responsible with it.
Like, you know.
off student loans or you
know, or something like that.
And my husband said, no, we are gonna use
this money for sleep because you need it.
And so I just really appreciate
him, like advocating for me
and for our family with that.
And so we did kind of calculate out how
many, how many nights can we hire a doula?
And so we sort of spread
out for a few weeks.
We had a doula come two nights
a week where she would take care
of the babies and we could go to
sleep and get a full night's sleep.
Um, so just things like that.
Advocating for, um, helping mom,
helping you know, your partner and, um.
Really recognizing when hopefully before
things hit crisis mode, but reaching out.
I think there's this, uh, horrible
like myth that moms just need
to have it all figured out that
sleep should just come natural.
That feeding should just come natural.
That healing should just come natural
to us and we shouldn't need help.
Um, and the truth is we
do, we need a lot of help.
And honestly, our moms and our
grandmas, they needed help.
And I don't know if they, you
know, really got it in the same way
that, that they really needed it.
Um, and I think our generation,
I'm millennial and I think we're
starting to really recognize that.
Um, no moms, moms need to be able to
reach out for help and babies thrive when
mom is doing well and partners thrive.
When mom does well, the
whole family really does.
So.
If, if partners can recognize
that and help advocate for mom and
let her know that it's okay, she
doesn't have, have it all figured
out that, that she can accept help.
Emily: I think that really rings true
with a lot of the experts that I'm
speaking to, is being that advocate.
You've got your physical capacity in terms
of not having gray matter, you having
given birth as the partner and being able
to use the fact that you've got those
tools, I guess, to support your partner.
And also you can probably recognize,
if you're seeing things like postnatal
depression, which might be sleep
related, or traumatic birth, et cetera.
And again, I should call out that partners
can get postnatal depression as well.
but, but uh, yeah, being, being
an advocate as much as you can,
even though obviously both under
a lot of pressure, I love that.
So thank you for going through that.
now.
The next thing I've got here
is so coordinations of twins
and multiples on, on schedules.
What's your general, thoughts there?
Pros and cons, anything
people should know?
Laura Van Luven: So again, in the early
weeks and months, doing your best to have
them on the same feeding schedule is gonna
help with setting them up for success.
With sleeping.
It's pretty hard to get them on
the same sleeping schedule, um,
the four month mark, feeding them at the
same time can definitely help with that.
The thing I always tell parents
is not to be afraid of your
babies waking each other up.
I think that's one of the
biggest fears the twin parents
have, and it is a valid fear.
Like you said, parent partners
can get postnatal depression.
My husband, even when our
fifth baby was born, you know.
Eight years later, uh, if he starts
hearing a baby cry, he starts getting
like sweaty and his heart starts racing
and he's like, I know it's not like PTSD,
but it's like such a trigger for me.
And he's like, I never had
that before with a crying baby.
Like, he never experienced
that with our first one.
Um, he's like, I think it was just
after the twins and there was so much
crying and I was so afraid they were
gonna wake each other up, that now when
I hear even just one crying baby, it
just brings up this response in me.
So I wanna just say it is a valid fear.
Um, it is absolutely, you know,
fine to feel that way, but if you
want your twins to sleep in the same
room, which most twin parents do,
at least for the first few years.
Even if they're boy, girl
twins and they're gonna end up
separating them at some point mo
or, or whatever gender they are.
It doesn't matter.
Like some, most parents do want their
twins to share a room because of
space in the house or whatever it is.
Um, and so if you want that, if that
is your long-term goal, then you need
to, uh, be okay with them waking each
other up and having, again, support and
strategy is going to help you get over
that fear because you're gonna know what
to do and you're gonna feel supported
in implementing that plan in the middle
of the night if they start crying or
at bedtime when they start crying.
But I would say let your
twins figure it out.
They are gonna have to figure
out compromising for the rest of
their life, because most people.
Aren't gonna be giving their twins.
And let me tell you this, most people
aren't gonna be giving their twins
one of everything, like one of like
each their own toy all the time.
But even if you do,
Emily: It's true.
Laura Van Luven: still fight over it.
They'll still fight over it,
Emily: Yeah.
Laura Van Luven: the
Emily: people that get the one gift
for the two twins, I'm a twin, right?
Traumatic
Laura Van Luven: Yes.
Oh, well.
So my, uh, my mother-in-law who's
amazing, she's like, awesome grandma.
she, I don't know, maybe she'd heard that.
'cause when my twins, you know, when
they were born, she would buy them each,
like, you get a set of cars and you get
a set of cars, and they were the same.
And, and I think she just never
wanted one to feel like left out.
Right.
Which is, uh, which is wonderful and it's
a wonderful grandmother instinct to do.
But my twins would still fight with
each other over, even though they
literally had the exact same thing.
So I just, I just am, I say illustrate,
and you probably know this Yeah.
More than anybody else twins, just on a
different level, have to learn compromise.
And so, and I think it's a, it
can be a really good thing if we
direct them well as parents, right.
Um, and if we frame it well
them, and it does start.
on that they are gonna have to compromise
on their schedule a little bit.
are gonna have to compromise on
sleeping through noise a little bit.
Um, and hopefully in the end, again,
if we can direct them well as parents,
they will be better people, more
empathetic, more understanding.
I think there are some studies
that show twins do tend to be
more empathetic than singleton's.
Yeah.
Emily: Thank you for running through that.
that's a really big picture way to
talk about it, that, yeah, waking each
other is a bit of a fact of life and is
something that will continue onwards.
So working through that and knowing
that it's okay, So we talked a little
bit about room and, and cot sharing.
to summarize what you've already
said, do what you need to do.
would you add anything to that
about I did have a friend that
did at one point separate their
kids into two different rooms.
any thoughts to add any different tips.
Laura Van Luven: I, I just always
want if, if, again, if parents,
so sleeping, putting your babies
to sleep in the same crib, might
be recommended in your country.
In my country, it's not recommended.
Again, they want them in
separate cribs, or cots.
But, uh, so you should follow the
recommendation where you live.
But if you in the long run are
thinking you're okay with them being
in separate rooms, you could go for it.
That's fine.
There's nothing wrong with
separating your twins.
there's, there's nothing wrong.
They're gonna be fine if that's
what you as the parent want.
but if you don't have that option or
you really want them to be together
because maybe it's easier for you
honestly to have everybody in one
room, some, most PE people feel that
way, then, then I would encourage you
to give it a try and just let them
learn, to sleep through each other's
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
It definitely doesn't end when
they get older, that's for sure.
You've got teenagers to come.
So let's keep going on.
I'd love a couple recommendations.
for, the sleep environment, are
there things like white noise,
blackout curtains, any top tips that
you generally say like work well
or is it just each to their own?
Laura Van Luven: Oh no, I definitely
recommend blackout curtains.
and you know this living in Australia
and I live in Minnesota, kind of
on the other like end of the globe.
you know, we have a lot of
sunlight during summertime.
You know, the sun is up, probably
not as early as it is for you.
but it can come up before 6:00
AM and then stay up, you know,
past nine o'clock in June.
And, um, especially for naps, I absolutely
recommend blackout curtains and they
do not have to be anything fancy.
I literally had handmade ones that
I found a pan pattern on Pinterest,
um, when I lived in Djibouti.
Um.
That I used.
You can buy 'em really cheap on Amazon.
There's nothing special about them.
Like in terms of which ones you get.
If you travel a lot, if you have
grandma's house a lot, they're ones
that are suction cups that you can get.
So you don't have to install any
kind of like actual curtain onto
somebody's, you know, window white
noise is a must have for twins.
Absolutely.
Um, you know, I even recommend
particularly during the sleep
training phase that you have at
least two layers of white noise.
That doesn't mean you need
to keep those two layers.
So what I mean by that is maybe a white
machine, white noise machine, and a fan.
And you can always take one away,
um, later on once they're sleeping
better, you know, after a few
weeks, if you don't wanna that much
noise in there because, um, you're
concerned about damage to the ears.
Um, and you can always turn it down
later on in the night also, and have
it up higher at bedtime and always
turn it down later on so that it's
not a long term sustained thing.
But having some kind of white noise I
think, essential for twins and really
even singleton babies, but particularly
for twins that are in the same room.
Emily: Yeah.
Okay.
Well thank you for that.
I think those hopefully give,
people a bit more peace.
And I, I did use white noise myself,
so I think that that's great.
And a fan as well.
Temperament and developmental differences,
I mean, we did touch on that a little bit,
which is obviously if they're fraternal,
they're genetically completely different.
Even if they're identical, they will be.
Different, different, I mean, there's
different types of identical twins.
anything to add there, any call
outs from training twins or where
there's, different babies that's
relevant to let the audience know?
I,
Laura Van Luven: I think you know,
you, it doesn't mean just because
they have different temperaments
doesn't necessarily mean you have to
do two different sleep training plans.
You, I said, you may have to find
that one twin is having to compromise
a little bit more than the other.
In some areas, um, sometimes if they
have wildly different temperaments.
You might have to do
different methods for them.
Um, like I said, with some twins, just lay
it's just.
they fall asleep.
And with one, maybe they need
a little bit more intervention.
And I just wanna say that if you
have that kind of situation where you
are rock, you are maybe comforting
one more at bedtime, and the other
one is able to just lay down.
I, I don't want you to
feel bad about that.
Some moms feel like that means they're
favoring one twin over the other.
you know, raising twins, you might, you
are faced with these kind of situations
all the time, even if they are identical,
you are al you're, there's always gonna
be things where one twin is going to need
you a little bit more than the other in
different phases of their development.
Um, again, I'm speaking as a mom of
9-year-old twins and it really does.
Not go away.
And I just, it's not because
I'm favoring one over the other.
And it's okay to try to have then other
intentional times to be with maybe the
twin that isn't needing you as much.
Um, and try to find ways to
connect with them in other ways.
it's okay to just be needed by the one one
moment, and then in the next phase, the
other one might need you in another way.
And that's okay.
Emily: Great tip, so great.
I know a lot of people struggle with that.
Wonderful.
So remember, don't feel bad
if you do need to adjust based
on the needs of the children.
That is so, so good.
let's keep going through any
additional call outs around the NICU.
if people are in nicu, I
mean, most multiple parents
do spend some time in NICU.
Any any tips there in terms of getting
them into a rhythm or does it all apply
to what you've already gone through?
Laura Van Luven: So the biggest thing I
would say with coming home with your kids
from the NICU is to talk to your nurse.
your nurses probably have your babies
on a really solid schedule already,
and so trying to keep that same routine
as much as possible when you come
home is gonna set you up for success.
And you probably are still gonna be giving
meds, giving cer, you know, feedings
at certain times, and there might be
other therapies that they're needing.
Um, so try to keep them
on that same routine.
the other thing is.
I think NICU parents, because it's such
a harrowing ordeal, especially if they
were born very premature or had a lot
of medical problems early on, first of
all, if you are gonna go through a sleep
training process with them, make sure
you clear it with their doctor first.
Make sure, you have a really good
understanding of, um, what to expect.
And then I think NICU parents feel like
they can't ever let their twins struggle.
And that is very valid because their
twins struggled a lot very, very
early on, and they don't want their
twins to have to go through that
again, which is very understandable.
But I, I would, just want them to
know that it's okay to still go
through a sleep training process and
allow them to struggle a little bit.
It doesn't mean you need to leave them to
cry it out, to allow some tears again so
that they can learn the beautiful skill
of being able to fall asleep on their own.
Um, because that is a gift to
them and to you as the parent.
But that does not take away
from that early struggle that
they had, as a NICU graduate.
Emily: Yeah.
Thank you.
That I think that will
resonate a lot with people.
And then, tips for
surviving sleep training.
As a parent, I think this question's
quite fun and very relevant.
would you say to people that feel like
they're currently failing or maybe in
future they're gonna feel like they're
failing at, at doing sleep training?
Any common mistakes?
Laura Van Luven: Uh, I would just say
again, the biggest thing is to have
support from your partner or from another
friend or family member that can, you
know, just be there for guidance for you
or hire a sleep coach that can, offer, you
know, that support that you need because
it can be a very emotionally trying,
it can bring up emotions for people.
It can, it can bring up feelings
of shame, guilt, failure.
And it is not about moms for, you know, if
they are finding that they're doing things
that are unsafe, or not ideal for sleep.
I never want moms to
feel shame about that.
I would rather them talk it through and
find a solution and just acknowledge
that they were in a difficult
situation and they were doing what
they felt was best in the moment.
I never want moms to feel like
they're failing at sleep training or
any other aspect of being a parent.
And so I would say have
a good support system.
Somebody who's gonna be encouraging to
you and, um, uplifting you and, and not
trying to shame you or tell you that you
did this, or it's all because you rocked
them too much or something like that.
It's, that's not what this is about.
then, you know, you can just have
things like maybe your favorite coffee
or, um, you can also sleep training
maybe during a stretch of days where
you're not gonna be working or needing
other, uh, having other obligations
is, is a great, also great to start.
Emily: Thank you.
And you just, flagged
another thing as well.
Sometimes if there's two parents
or a parent and a support person,
you're not your best selves
when you're tired, are you?
And so there can be, that piece, well, you
did this, you shouldn't have done that.
So I think you mentioned this earlier
about creating grace and space and
also as much as you can, trying to
be aware of that, I guess it sounds
like you're alluding to, is it
is a tough time and surely people
should expect to make mistakes.
Laura Van Luven: Yeah.
that's okay.
And you always will as a parent.
But, yeah, knowing that you're in each
other's corner, that you're on the same
team, is the, is the most important thing
Emily: Yeah, you need a new parent mantra.
This is our team cry you
know, a sports team has.
Uh, okay.
And so we did touch a little bit on
tools, but you also mentioned earlier
the light hatch, wonder Week, sap.
Do you wanna go through a
couple other, top tools as well?
Laura Van Luven: Yeah, I love, I
use the, I personally use the hatch.
It's, I love it because I have
not a very big house and I have
a lot of people in this house.
And so I love things that are, do
multiple, that have multiple functions,
um, and that grow with my kids.
So the hatch is a great product
because, um, it is a sound machine.
Um, it is a clock.
It's also, you can get the ones that
are baby monitor and it can turn into a
okay to wake clock with your toddlers.
So I have mine, I have my 4-year-old
and my 1-year-old share room.
And so, um, I turn it, it
automatically turns on at bedtime
or I can turn it on manually.
And then my toddler, it turns, so it has
like kind of a low red light at night,
but you can set it to any color you want.
Or no color.
Now I keep a low red light and
then it turns off, you know, at
about, I think 10 o'clock or so.
But just so that my 4-year-old, he
gets a little afraid of the dark.
So he has that on then in the morning,
um, it continues the sound, but it
turns blue and then he knows that when
it turns blue, that's time to get up.
because well now he can start to
recognize his numbers, but, um, but
he knows that when it's blue, now
he can get up out of bed and he can
come snuggle with me in the morning.
Emily: Right.
I had heard of, see, I didn't realize
that's what the hatch was, but I have
heard from so many people that the
light colors to advise 'em when to get
out of bed, if they're for example,
no longer in a cot, they're free,
is a, a fantastic way to train them.
And, and doing that a bit earlier as well.
Right.
Just before they're about to be
free, so to speak from the courts.
Is is that something
you'd recommend as well?
Laura Van Luven: Yeah, I, I do, yeah.
I do recommend staying in
cribs until, or cots until they
are at least three years old.
Even if they're potty trained,
they can stay in their cot,
um, until they're three.
You can put them in a overnight
diaper, um, at night, and they still
can usually figure out that potty
that, to use the potty during the day.
So.
Emily: Yeah.
Wonderful.
Well thank you for that.
You'd mentioned the Wonder Weeks app.
Do you want to talk to that as well?
Laura Van Luven: That is one of my
favorite tools also is the Wonder
Weeks app, which was developed by a
Dutch researcher on child development.
And there is a book
called The Wonder Weeks.
But I really love the app and it
is absolutely worth paying every
penny for, um, I probably should
be an affiliate for them the amount
of times I have, uh, recommended
this app to people, but I'm not.
And, um, so I, it will predict
you put in and, and they have
a function for twins also.
You put in their due date and it's
gonna predict for you when they're
gonna be an extremely fussy phase.
They call it a mental leap.
they'll, it'll list out these are the
tasks that they're learning, and you
might start to notice some of these
new skills that your babies can do.
they tend to get extra
clingy, extra fussy.
When kind of, again, that world is
opening up a little bit more for them.
It feels a little scary,
like everything's changing.
Um, but then it'll show
you when that will end.
And again, I've used it with all five
of my kids and my 17 month old is
in his last mental leap right now.
And it is so real, like
he's so clingy right now.
Um, but we keep looking at the app like
how many more days of this, um, because
it, we found that it's very accurate in
predicting when these phases will end.
And I think it's so helpful as a
parent to have an idea that, this
is just a, this is this phase.
Um, and that this isn't necessarily
how it's always gonna be and this
is how I can support my baby as
he or she's growing through, um,
through this developmental stage.
Emily: Fantastic.
Well thank you very much for sharing that.
Really appreciate it.
And so in terms of audience questions,
we actually covered everything off.
I don't know, was there anything
else that you got through that
we haven't covered or covered?
Laura Van Luven: was all it.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emily: Okay.
Well this has been so enlightening, Laura.
I really hope this helps the audience
to get some more sleep or maybe adjust
or add to what they're already doing.
So thank you so much for
coming on the podcast.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Laura Van Luven: Thank you so much.
Appreciate it
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