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Welcome to the socialized strategy. And today's episode is very exciting because we are going to talk about how to create a paid community membership. Maayan Gordon is a community building expert who has built her own audience of over 2,000,000 on social media. Pretty incredible. And she is a 6 times startup founder.
Helen:So she's got the receipts to prove it, and she's gonna share her knowledge with us today. Thank you for joining us, Maayan. Woo.
Maayan:Yeah. Absolutely. No. I'm, I'm excited to be here and talk about a subject that I'm really passionate about, mostly because I love content creators, and I know how hard it is. And, you know, it it kinda sucks to be doing all this work and not have something, you know, impressive and significant to come out of it.
Helen:Also, we're working usually, you know, for free because that's what we're we do as content creators. And people think, oh, as soon as you have a 1,000,000 followers, you're making a $1,000,000. I mean, I did used to think that myself until I had a 1,000,000 followers, And I'm still working my butt off at my day job. But just so everybody knows, we did connect on LinkedIn. And that is something that is so major to me because I made an attempt this year to commit to myself to be more present on LinkedIn and start posting some clips on LinkedIn and putting myself out there visually even just in with videos.
Helen:And it was it's been very game changing because I've paid attention and not even as much as I do to TikTok, and yet we managed to find each other. So I love that the power of social media goes well beyond TikTok, Instagram, and where people traditionally think they're gonna find relationships. So yay to that.
Maayan:You know, one of the things I really love about LinkedIn is there's kind of you know, each algorithm for different social media platforms has different magic to it or different, you know, ways that it's connecting. Right? So with TikTok, it's great at connecting content that you're really interested in with, you know, the the viewer. LinkedIn's really good at connecting people who will end up building, like, significant relationships. And so I don't even know how we originally connected on LinkedIn.
Helen:I know.
Maayan:And, you know, I don't know what necessarily compelled me to be able to find your name and and tag you in that post, but I know.
Helen:Thank you.
Maayan:LinkedIn did its work.
Helen:Gosh. I'm so, so happy about it because it really has I don't know. I think it's opened up so many different thoughts in my mind when I find people on LinkedIn that are doing different things and creating alliances, and the kind of stuff you're doing is amazing. So I'm really thrilled to have you. But I also I'm gonna start off with a question that I don't normally ask anyone.
Helen:So I'm gonna ask you. I hope you don't mind. But
Maayan:I love it.
Helen:What do you consider your current North Star, and how did you find it? So I love this idea of we all have a focus. So I'd love to know, have you found yours, if you even have?
Maayan:Yes. No. And it and it took me a really long time. And my my North Star might shift slightly, but I've I've really, I think, landed on it, in terms of the core of of what that is. And for me, it's a combination of more than one thing, which I think is why it was so challenging.
Maayan:It took me so long to figure out what it was. And so for me, it's really how can I create scalable impact, not only with individuals, but also with the systems that we all live within because the impact is so much? So that's one major component. The other major component is being able to not only use my skills, but continue to develop my skills in marketing and in communication. So having both of those things together and trying to figure out how what what I was gonna do from a work perspective with that took me, you know, over the last year and a half of really dialing in and trying different things before I I, you know, figured it out.
Helen:Amazing. I I spoke to someone recently who had quite an enlightening thing to say, which was people always say follow your passion. And she was she said, I like to change that to follow your talent. And so I thought that was pretty interesting because it does sort of happen automatically. And so I would like you to laundry list for us what are some of your strong skill sets.
Helen:I know you're great at writing. You're great at marketing. But what would you say, like, can you do a quick download of, like, I think I'm really good at this, this, this, and this?
Maayan:Yeah. And and to to first kind of qualify what you're saying, I think it's both. I think find the convergence of your passion and your talent because one without the other usually isn't sustainable. So for me, you know, I would say writing has been something that has been invaluable, in in my career. It's something I've always loved.
Maayan:I've always been natural with it. And then you'll notice, like, an overlap between a lot of these things. I would say another is emotional granularity. And, again, that that that comes a bit from from language. And, you know, emotions are fascinating, and I've done a lot of research and I could get way way into that topic.
Maayan:But, the more emotion related words you know, the more words you know, the more you're actually able to experience more distinct emotion. So language happens to be this. I mean, we all know how powerful languages. We've always known that, you know, a couple words can change someone's life. Like, that's very, very true.
Maayan:So, you know, emotional granularity is one I would say, like, conflict resolution slash slash conflict conflict navigation is is another one. And these all fall under communications is kind of the the broad topic. I would say another is really understanding the psychological mental aspects behind people's words and and, you know, their habits and behaviors. Another is, like, color theory. I'm really good with colors.
Maayan:I had a glass blowing business, and a graphic design sticker printing business, so that really helped me understand how colors work really well together and how they make us feel and and interact differently. And then I would say, generally, I'm really good at learning things quickly. So I'm not good at everything. I'm certainly I don't know how to code and, like, create an app. But if I put my mind to it and focused on it, I could probably learn how to do it in 2 weeks, with the with the proper, you know, motivation.
Maayan:So those are those are some of the the core things. I'll tell you something I'm not talented in is, like, patience.
Helen:Okay. I like that.
Maayan:I can apply it, but it's very forceful feeling, and it's very challenge. Every like, I'll never feel like patience is something easy to me even if I get really good at it. So, like, there are lots of things I'm good at. There are also lots of things I just don't have a talent for, and I never will have.
Helen:I love that. Patience is so funny because it it will make you stop doing something because you're like, this is just becoming too difficult, then you're not patient. You know? You you don't have the patience to push through it a lot of the times. You know what I mean?
Helen:Really depends. Oh my god. I love that. That's it's good to recognize what your strengths and weaknesses are, and I've come to it's I mean, being much older than you, I found a lot more of my weaknesses, I think, over the years, and I really know how to lean into my strengths. So that's that's fun that you've discovered that so so quickly, and you can articulate it so clearly.
Maayan:Well, that's the great thing about having patience be a weakness is you find out very quickly. Right? Because you don't have patience, so you're gonna find out really quick.
Helen:So Funny. So funny. Alright. I love it. So let's just talk about what you're doing as, like, what your your business model is right now.
Helen:What are you doing for creators?
Maayan:Yeah. So right now, my my core focus, I do a little bit of consulting, but that's typically with brands and and startups. With creators, my sole focus is on building communities that are business ecosystem. So the the whole point of the community is really, like, 2 or 3 fold. 1 is to build a deeper relationship with the, stakeholders that you're involved with.
Maayan:So with your fans, with with anyone who, you know, you contribute value to. The other is to make money so that the whole thing is sustainable because I think every content will creator will, relate to burnout at some point. And, you know, financial reward is a huge motivator for all of us, not just because it feels good to, you know, be valued, like, tangibly for the work that you're doing. That's one component. But also money can bias things that really help prevent and avoid burnout, like like breaks and vacations or, you know, your favorite ice cream bar at your ice cream shop or, you know, being able to to give to charity.
Maayan:Like, that's, you know, a huge motivating motivating factor for me. I'll work a lot harder sometimes for someone else than than I will for myself. And so, you know, without a financial component, I think, you know, content creation is not as sustainable, like, over the course of 10 plus years.
Helen:So I'm gonna go out of order on my questions because I like to have a little a little guide of what where I wanna drive the conversation, but I think this leads into something that I was gonna talk about later, which is okay. Let me articulate it correctly. So if I am a creator and I want to create a paid community, what is the value to my audience if they're already seeing my content and they're getting it for free? What how can you explain to me almost like sell me on the idea if I was like somebody like, why would I buy into someone's create community that's paid if I'm already seeing a bunch of their content for free?
Maayan:Yeah. So there's there's lots of different reasons for different people is where where I'll start. I'll give some categorical examples. So, one example is I would say a higher level of interaction. So, you know, on social media, if someone's got a 1000000 followers, you might get, like, a heart.
Maayan:You might get a comment back every once in a while. Being a part of a paid community, you're gonna get a higher degree of attention and responsiveness typically. So that's that's one one component. Another would be, I would say, like, bonus features. So that could and that could be a huge range of things from you're doing a podcast, having people in in you have people invited on who, you know, can can ask questions and will respond to those questions.
Maayan:But, you know, having the ability to submit questions that are specifically answered on the podcast. Right? You know that, if you're a member and you ask a question that you're going to pick 3 questions every podcast episode from members inside the community, and you're going to you're going to answer those. Another could be attention and recognition. So some communities will do member spotlights.
Maayan:Right? So you've got this huge, huge TikTok channel potentially by being a member of your community. Maybe someone gets, you know, they they edit a video that's based on one of your tutorials, and you, re not retweet. Sorry. Yeah.
Maayan:The video or, you know, do a stitch or you share it in some way across your channel to get them not only that awesome feeling, but also tangible exposure to to their channel. So those are all some examples I would say, you know, from the emotional level, or the psychological level, there's something really, really valuable about feeling a part of something. The sense of belonging is something that I would say an incredible number of people are missing in today's world. And it comes partially from social media where we've never been so connected to each other. It's you know, we can message people instantly over and almost anyone.
Maayan:We can get access to almost anyone to, you know, connect with them, from a surface level. But to get a sense of belonging is completely different than just a sense of connection. And I feel that the structure of communities, when done right, are really, really fostering the sense of belonging. So let me, quickly
Helen:Yes. Let's talk about what that means. Yeah.
Maayan:Yeah. What what's the difference between feeling connected and feeling a sense of belonging is contribution. To be a part of something that I'm actually contributing to is what makes me feel like I belong to it. And that contribution can look like many different things. You know, in some communities, that'll be peer to peer interaction.
Maayan:Right? So let's say you have a I'm gonna use your an easy example. You have a content creation community that's helping people learn how to create content. I'm a member and Susan's a member. And Susan and I start talking to each other and we start helping each other out through the vehicle of the community.
Maayan:Now we both feel a sense of belonging, not just not just connection to each other, but belonging to this community that connected us with each other. And I think that's a really, really powerful mechanism for not only bringing us that again, emotional, psychological value, but it's it's highly scientifically proven that when we work with other people, when we work within a community, we are more successful, and our level of productivity, our level of commitment, our level of execution all go up higher. There's lots of sayings about, you know, if you wanna go fast, go alone. If you wanna go far, go with with
Helen:others. Right.
Maayan:I never forgot about that one. Social media is a game of going really far for it's a marathon. It's not not a sprint, and so doing it with other people is, I think, invaluable. I can speak to that as a content creator. I get really tired of creating content by myself.
Maayan:But when I even talking about content with someone else is so much fun.
Helen:Yes. It is.
Maayan:Incredible. And you get energized in ways that by myself, I, like, often have kids faster.
Helen:It's so amazing. And it's funny to me when you talk about this, like, relationship thing. Whenever I go on a TikTok live or when I'm on these these type of live webinars, when people are helping each other in the chat and supporting each other in the chat, it is the best thing for me. And it brings me back, and I think I talked to you about this on one of our phone calls prior, where I had parties at my house in the suburbs when I had dance parties. Did I tell you that?
Helen:And I had women No. Oh my gosh. I decided I was gonna have a woman a women only dance party at my house, and women showed up. 70 women came to my house on, I think, the first one. I didn't even know most of them.
Helen:They somebody invited somebody. And their their mutual connection was that they were all part of this idea that I had that women don't get to dance enough, and we're gonna make our own dance party. And, you know, we're suburban women. It was such a hit that it was, like, devastating to them when I left that community because my dance parties were epic. But I have always loved bringing people together and having them really enjoy each other's company too.
Helen:And I think that's what part part of me is missing that from my content right now because I only get it when I go live. And that's it. Otherwise, it's like, yes, I see the chat, I see the comments, and I can individually respond to them, but I'm not bringing somehow it doesn't feel like I'm bringing people together. I don't know.
Maayan:Yeah. And, you know, it it sounds like it's strange, but a lot of how we feel about things does come from just the design of something. And an easy example of that in an external way is restaurants, when you walk into them, feel totally different. Simply, they they all have the same element. They've got chairs where you said it.
Maayan:They've got tables. They have a way. They all have the exact same components. Each one of them feels totally different to us because of the decor. And so when you think about building a community, that decor or, like, the user interface, you know, the user experience, makes a huge difference even though you think, how could buttons being in this part of the screen versus this part of the screen, is that really a contributing factor to how I feel about a community or the value of a community?
Maayan:Yes. As much as the decor is a contributing factor to how you feel about a restaurant, how much money you're willing to to pay out that. And
Helen:so when people are in a community and they're, how does it does the connection happen? Are they caught are they joined in a a workshop? Just give me some example of how they
Maayan:get to work. There's the the cool thing about communities is they can have, you know, all sorts of different structures. So one way is through a community chat feature. So that could be a WhatsApp group. It could be a Facebook group that's exclusive and private to the community.
Maayan:Another is through, just live, ask me anything Zoom, you know, calls. So there's one community that I I manage where we just did a Zoom call 2 days ago, and we had 75 people register and, like, 55 people showed up. And there were, you know, like, when you do the the gallery view
Helen:Oh, I love that.
Maayan:And there were, like, 3 full screens of of people, which was so again, in talking about, you know, user interface and design, just to see that many people's faces
Helen:That's so cool. I didn't realize that when you did that, it would be seeing the actual faces. That's so much more
Maayan:they have their camera on. Yes.
Helen:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course.
Helen:I mean, that and that's an option that you don't have to. You can be part of it without your camera on, but I didn't I didn't even process that. I kept thinking it was more like this where someone's in a chat versus an actual meeting. I love that.
Maayan:Yeah. So, you know and again, there's lots of different structures. So this, I would say, is more of a workshop structure where there's panelists or there's, you know, workshop leaders or speakers. Right? There's a podcast.
Maayan:So there's main speakers and then there's everyone who's listening. But you can also do a format that is more like the host is saying, here are some things that are are new. You know, here are some updates, and here's a topic of conversation I want all of us to have together. Amazing. And then, you know, who has a question about this topic?
Maayan:The host often sharing, like, their insights, but then other people can join saying, you know, here's what I think actually about about this this topic of conversation. So that's another way. I would say a third way that's totally different than both of those 2 is through challenges. So having a 7 day challenge where everyone in the community or whoever signs up for the challenge is participating in shared activities and then being able to connect with each other around specific activities that you know other people are doing, I think, is another really cool
Helen:I love that.
Maayan:That that interaction.
Helen:Yeah. At some point, I would love to just even poll my audience on how many people would love to have challenge, you know, and just see what that would be about. Maybe I could do that through the newsletter.
Maayan:Because that's another one. Polls. Polls are a great feature where so people miss out on the crucial step of of the poll, which is after you take the poll, you share it back with the community, and you get them to interact with each other on on the results of the poll, is I think a really cool, you know, again, mechanism for for getting people involved or, you know, even again on a on a live Zoom call, doing a poll for the audience. Right? And then and then pulling it up and saying, okay.
Maayan:Here's here's what's going on with the people who are on the call right now. Like, let's talk about this. Or someone who voted this answer, could you share what your thoughts were behind, you know, this, this response that you
Helen:had. Oh, that's amazing. I love that.
Maayan:There's infinite ways to engage people.
Helen:Yeah. You're you're, like, a plethora of ideas. And is this from your own community building? Like, where or it's just still building my life experiences.
Maayan:I mean, I've I've had, in, you know, 33 short years, I've had, you know, several lifetimes worth of experiences from, you know, being homeless, and you talk let me tell you. You talk to a lot of strange people.
Helen:Oh, god.
Maayan:When you're homeless, because you don't have, like, a lot of control over over a lot of your physical circumstances. But then, you know, in 2022, I traveled the country in an RV for a whole year and talked to, you know, 100, if not thousands of people from all across the United States, in various different contexts from in restaurants to in, like, boutique stores to just, like, people out on the street to, you know, all over. And then, you know, had a massive amount of, you know, human and customer interaction through through some of the businesses that I ran. So in my glass blowing business, we were shipping, you know, a 100 to 200 packages per week, for at least 2 of the 3 years that we were, like, really going. And each every single one of those packages we shipped came with conversation that I had with because it because we didn't have it set up on an ecommerce store because every single piece we made was slightly unique.
Maayan:So we used Instagram, and we would just post every single thing we made, and then people would, you know, message us and and comment and say, hey. I wanna buy this thing, and then we'd have to direct message them to actually close the the sale and then send an invoice for it versus on an ecommerce site, people just buy stuff and you're not having a conversation with them. So it was extremely manual intensive, but I I, you know, gained this lifelong benefit of you know, I've I've talked to a lot of people, and that's just really helped me understand how people and then paired with that, I've done I read a lot of books, and I've done a lot of research, and I've listened to a lot of podcasts. And I'm just very, very curious about many, many different things, and so I have I mean, like, a lot of the stuff I know is not stuff I completely came up with. I've collected it from Alright.
Maayan:Right?
Helen:You're sponge. Sure. You're a sponge.
Maayan:Yeah. Exactly.
Helen:You're like you're a sponge. So how did your just I have to digress on to TikTok for a minute because we kinda glossed over that you have 2,000,000 followers over there. And I don't know how active you still are. I noticed that you post you do you have some recent posts, but not as active as you were when you built it, obviously. So how how did you build the 2 what did how did that happen, the the big TikTok following?
Maayan:Yeah. So this was after, 2018, our our Instagram page I don't wanna say it got shadow banned more than just the algorithm changed, and we really, like, got hit hard from that. But we went from having, you know, 50,000, like, new audience who had never seen our our page before every month engage with us to, you know, it wouldn't go above, like, a 100 or 200 people.
Helen:And what was what's your your content page? Like, what's the niche?
Maayan:So this was why I was running my my glass blowing business. Okay. It was it was me posting all the glass pieces that we made.
Helen:Got it.
Maayan:It was pretty sales focused. It wasn't very personal brand or anything. And so, you know, we took a a really big revenue hit from from that, and I joined TikTok. This was this was early for TikTok. It was still 2019.
Maayan:Wow. And I was very confused why there were, like, just videos playing. Like, it was very confusing coming from Instagram, onto TikTok. And I was in this phase where I realized I was gonna have to start learning things again because I I didn't feel like I was having to learn things previously. I just was good at figuring things out, and, like, things came more naturally to me.
Maayan:And I said, alright. This is this is part of my new learning phase, so I'm just gonna post a video every day on TikTok, and I'll start figuring stuff out from doing it. And about 2 weeks in, I woke up, and I think this is a a common, went viral overnight story. I woke up, and there were 99 plus notifications on my phone. I went, wow.
Maayan:That's a lot of notifications because I had, like, 2,000 followers, which even even that to get 2,000 followers in 2 weeks is a is a huge growth opportunity. It is. So I open up the app, and there's just real time, like, notifications inside the app of, like, like, comment, fault, like and I'm like, what is happening? And I'm a little bit panicky inside because I've had stuff go viral on Instagram for, like, really negative reasons where there was, like, hate messages and other things like that. And so I'm, like, a little panicked inside.
Maayan:I'm like, uh-oh. Did I do something wrong? I look at, the most recent post, and it you know how TikTok shows you, like, how many views before you even click on the post right on on the thumbnail, and it had one m. Oh my god. Like, what is happening?
Maayan:So I click on the video, and there's thousands of comments and over over a 1000000 views. And so then I became really fascinated, and I was like, this is a mystery. I have to put on my detective hat because none of this makes sense, and I'm gonna solve the mystery. So I go into the comment section, and I see, like, many different comments, but there are some that are repeating over and over again, which is very typical of of TikTok. If something goes viral, oftentimes, peep there's, like, a very clear reason, and there's, like, this subculture language based context to it.
Maayan:And so a lot of the comments said VSCO girls have entered the chat, and a lot of them had s k s k s k s k. And I was like, I don't even know what what's going on here. So I Google and I look up what's a VSCO girl and, like, don't get an answer that is satisfying because I see, like, a VSCO girl wears a scrunchie and has a Hydro Flask and cares about turtles. I'm like, but what is that? Like, what that's Right.
Maayan:Understand. Do more research and kind of figure out it's a, kind of like back back in the day, like, like a Hollister girl or like
Helen:Oh, okay.
Maayan:It's like a like, you know, how you would describe a particular group of young people who have shared, you know, either physical traits or or, you know, dressing and other little shared habits. And I learned that the SKSK is how they laugh.
Helen:Oh my god.
Maayan:So so immediately, I feel very old because clearly I'm out of touch with what the younger kids are doing. That's crazy. I'm like, how is 28 out of touch these days? And but but now I'm much more interested than I've ever been. And so I also I was really curious, how could TikTok deliver a video to a 1000000 people when I only had 2,000 followers?
Maayan:How is it doing that from a logical technology standpoint? So I started doing some research into AI, start learning a lot about how AI has advanced, especially in China. So America has has relatively caught up to to China, but back, you know, 4 or 5 years ago, actually, China was ahead in the in the AI kind of races for a lot of a lot of reasons, including, like, governmental support and and other programs that they had. And so I all of a sudden go, oh, well, if I had all of this capability and I had all this data, what would I in my I know what the goal of platform is. Right?
Maayan:It's to have the most number of users on it, spending the most amount of time on the platform. Like, it's that part's easy. We know what the platforms want. So I said, if I know my goal and I know my tools, how are they using the tools to reach the goal? So I So
Helen:you're analyzing. You're an you're almost like an analyst, really. Yes. And you figured it out. I don't wanna waste too I don't wanna waste too much time
Maayan:on TikTok. I'll I'll I'll close it. So I basically figured out how some of the ways TikTok was working. I ran some, you know, experiments on there that worked really well, and I gained a a ton of followers.
Helen:It's insane what happened to you over there. My god. And it but but I will say growth was so quick. Even 2020, when I got on, growth was pretty quick. Now it is harder to go viral.
Helen:People are very choosy about who they're following.
Maayan:So
Helen:alright. I wanna go back to the community discussion because I want to I wanna get an understanding from you. In terms of creators, like, you're helping people build communities now. So what is the criteria you look for for someone, like, that would should monetize their community?
Maayan:Yeah. So I think one of the top criteria is, you know, are they in a niche that people are willing to pay for? Because there's some things people are very interested in, but not interested to pay money for. Okay. I would say those things tend to like, what what are people willing to pay money for?
Maayan:Something where there's a tangible result. So for example, if you're a fitness influencer, that's an awesome category because people there's you know, it's a huge multibillion dollar industry existing already where people are gonna pay to get in shape. Already exists. You don't have to
Helen:create it.
Maayan:Yeah. You know, if you, you know, have an account that's all about identifying different types of butterflies, that's gonna be a lot harder. Now I'm not saying it's not, like certainly, it's something that you can have a smaller, I think, monetized community. But, again, I'm looking for things that are pretty scalable Okay. Beyond not just the initial community build, but into something that's an even bigger business and brand.
Maayan:So for me that I look for scalability, and then I look at audience and content. Right? So, you know, how many channels are they on? How consistent like, how frequently is someone creating content? Because a lot of people like, I would not work with myself.
Maayan:And and that's I like that. I am building I get it. For myself, but but I wouldn't work with me because I don't post frequently enough.
Helen:Right. You're busy doing other things now.
Maayan:I'm busy doing other things. So that that frequency of content is really important, and I would say another is, you know, the way in which your audience is engaging with you Okay. Coupled with what what kind of content. So is it entertainment or is it value based content? I think entertainment's a lot, again, a lot more challenging
Helen:It is challenging.
Maayan:To monetize versus if there's a specific tangible value people are getting.
Helen:And then what about a number of followers? Do you look at, like, oh, they've already got this many followers. Does that matter? Do you think it's more about quality of followers? What do you think that is?
Maayan:Yeah. I think, you know, I would rather have someone with fewer followers that has a a content category that's really popular Mhmm. And that people would wanna spend money on, and they have a really engaged audience. So as an example, I'm, you know, in the the early phases of of onboarding and worth working with a creator who's really only on I mean, she's on several channels, but only has, you know, significant audience on one channel. It's Instagram, and it's less than a 100,000 followers.
Helen:Okay.
Maayan:But I think there's real potential there because her content category is spirituality, which is a hugely growing, you know, industry in the United States and globally. Like, it's this huge expanding global global industry. And her personality and her her engagement with her followers fits that content niche really, really well.
Helen:Alright. Alright. So now somebody like that, how would they get started and then promote? Like, there's so many levels to this. It's not just like, oh, I wanna have a community.
Helen:Also, then you have to convince people to join it. And how do you mean by that?
Maayan:Steps involved, and each step has a lot of thought that has to be put into it. So, you know, where I always start is really thinking about, what, one, what is the who who is it that you're serving? Right? So who's the avatar? Who is this community being built for?
Maayan:And sometimes it's not exactly the same person that is the core audience. Sometimes you're going for a much smaller subset of your existing audience. The cool thing to remember though is once you build something that is really specifically targeted for people and provides them with high value, it's much easier to attract more of those people. So it's not necessarily saying who is the main audience, but who within this audience is the most likely to perceive the highest level of value from what this person can offer. So in, marketing terms, that would be called, you know, finding either your 20% that pays for your 80% or, I I did a a mastermind where we talked about the 4% that ends up generating, like, 4% of your audience, or customers in a larger business if you have a scalable, or a a differentiated pricing model Right.
Maayan:Will spend exorbitantly more money than the other 96%. So, you know, figuring out that core audience, who who you wanna serve, and then figuring out what I call the offer stack. Right? What are the different offers at different price levels including free? What are you gonna offer people for free that builds a relationship and that gives them value?
Maayan:What are you gonna sell them that's, you know, easily accessible in a low price point? What is gonna be your your mid ticket offer, and what's your high ticket offer? Because once you have that kind of offer stack, then you can understand how to build the ecosystem around it to really foster all of the things like belonging, connection, value, and engagement.
Helen:Right. Because sometimes I think a lot of people have trouble figuring out how to, I don't know, communicate the things that they are really good at without feeling like there's being coming in a salesperson. I think a lot of people struggle with that. I see it on I can see it innately in videos when I'm watching. I may not be able to articulate it, but I can feel it.
Helen:You know what I mean? Right? But Yeah.
Maayan:And I think that's why it's really helpful to have, like, other people. Like, even if you're not gonna hire someone to to work with, you should still probably ask your friends, like, and run your like, have a little focus group of people that you run your ideas by, and you're like, I'm thinking of charging this much for a course, but I don't, like, I don't know how I feel about it. And then they'll pair it back to you or tell you, absolutely, in fact, that's too little money, and here's why. Because this this part of the course that you're gonna offer is actually the part I care the most about. And just for that part, I would pay twice what you're asking.
Maayan:And then you can go, oh, okay. Maybe I should focus the whole course on this this this subject. Maybe that's the thing that is super high value, and the rest of this is more more fluff. So I think getting feedback is, you know, critical, not just from in in that stage 1. I think stage 2 is getting feedback from your audience.
Maayan:Right? In getting them involved in saying, you know, before you even create something, hey, guys. I'm thinking about doing this. Would you guys prefer like, what would you guys find more value in? A or b?
Maayan:If I created this, how many of you guys would be interested to sign up? And that'll give you a really good pulse before you even get started. And at the same time, you're literally building and and generating leads for something that you possibly will create.
Helen:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not easy to separate yourself from what your expertise is and knowing that that value is so important to people. Because a lot of times, I take for granted the things I know. And then I'll have one simple conversation with someone, and they're like, I had no idea that that's how that works.
Helen:And I'm thinking, doesn't everybody know that? It's really simple. I mean, I just did this with the the word the term POV because I there's a lot of people on social media that use the term POV this and POV that. But a woman made a video, and she said, I didn't know what POV meant. She was like gen x age, I guess.
Helen:And she asked her kids. They didn't tell her it stands for point of view. They said, it's when the person in the house does the thing and then that thing. Like, they could under they could explain how to use the term, but they didn't know what it meant. And I was like, my god.
Helen:I there's so many things like that that I take for granted that I've picked up over the years because I'm in the field of production and I'm in that creative industry, and I have those terms in my head. It's, like, innate to me when other people just don't see it that way. But we take for granted our knowledge. Don't you think?
Maayan:Yeah. And and bringing it back to what you said about talent, part of the indicator of talent is that you think something is obvious. Yeah.
Helen:Oh my god.
Maayan:Which is why you don't that's why we don't recognize our own talent because we think everyone has it.
Helen:That's a mind explosion right there. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Because it does happen to me
Maayan:a lot. Same thing when in in again, how did I break through and understand that I had talent in in in marketing? I had a lot of conversations where I shared stuff that I thought, like, I did this thing everyone knows how to do and people would go, that's brilliant. I'll go, really? But but it felt like I was being I felt like I was stupid for taking so long to figure it out.
Helen:Oh my gosh. That is so crazy. Oh my. Alright. You just blew my mind with that one because I really never never thought of it that way.
Helen:I never had anybody frame it that way. So in terms of building a community, if you're a creator, what would you say the most challenging thing is for people who would wanna take something like that on?
Maayan:And
Helen:I could tell you
Maayan:I could tell you with
Helen:me even thinking about it just seems so overwhelming that I'm like, I'm already working, and I'm doing this production, and then I'm doing my content, and I'm keeping up with my like, it's almost seems overwhelming. So to me, I think that would be challenging, but tell me what you think other challenging elements are.
Maayan:I agree. So I think the the symptom what people think it is is workload, but what the actual challenge is is time management. So unfortunately, most people and and it's something I could get better at, but I happen to be very, very, very good at time management, partially because I've run a lot of different I like I've done so much stuff that I've been forced. And and I like I like optimization a lot. So for example, I use a project management system.
Helen:Okay.
Maayan:I use ClickUp, which I I love it. I love it so much. And, you know, I I use a lot of tools that help me to manage my time really, really effectively.
Helen:Oh my god.
Maayan:I would say another, though, this kinda goes back to, I would say, like, emotional regulation slash just self awareness. I know when I'm most effective at particular tasks. So how a lot of people schedule their days is they have stuff marked out in specific time slots, and they stick to that. I know that I can get something done 10 plus times faster if I'm in, like, we would call it flow state or if I'm in a particular energy cognition state. And I I I
Helen:like that.
Maayan:Be able to activate that, with different cues that, like, I know how to kind of prime that and and get into that intentionally. But a lot of people don't if you don't know how to activate yourself to just turn it on and be able to hyperfocus and feel hypermotivated, that creates hyperproduction. The workload can be immense because you're just not being efficient enough to get all the things done. Because as as we even talked to and then these were only, like, some of the steps we didn't get to promotion and creating strategy for, like, how you launched. And, like and then once it's launched, how do you keep track of all of it?
Maayan:So if you aren't able to have a high enough output level and efficiency and productivity, this becomes impossible to do by yourself. And and then you have options to do it without to hire people. I think in general, all content creators should have the idea that they're going to, at certain stages, start outs outsourcing different things, whether that's editing videos, whether that's having someone even just post their content, which is, like, one of the the less time consuming parts. The more you can take little bits off of your plate, the more you have room to do the thing that that you are always optimized in, which could be your creativity around and passion around creating the content.
Helen:Oh my god. You just hit the nail on the head with something this morning because I just said to Julia, I feel like I don't have as much time to make content anymore. Like, I'm freaking out because I've got so many other tasks happening, and I just you just spoke it, like, exactly my problem for today. My today problem has been articulated so clearly. So frustrating.
Helen:You know? Because I want to do so much, but I also I can't you know, I don't have the resources right now to be outsourcing everything and and making time only for the things that I wanna do. You know?
Maayan:And that's why the money matters. I know. Right? If you had to me, mama. If you had ten Right?
Maayan:If
Helen:you had to me, mama.
Maayan:If you had $10,000 a month coming in from the value you were creating, then you could hire people and actually create better content
Helen:more often. I love the most. Yeah.
Maayan:Yeah. And and, again, I love that it's a feedback system. So when you were saying, you know, people have this hard time of thinking, like, how am I gonna charge money when people are watching my content for free? Yeah. Because them paying into the community is gonna make it so that you're able to give them better and better content and more and more value.
Maayan:So it's almost like it's different than when you buy a product where when I buy a cell phone, I'm paying money now for the thing exactly as I'm getting it. When you're buying into a community, it's almost like an investment because you're getting something now, but part of that money is going to make something better in the future that then you'll get access to. So it's a a little bit different of a of a purchasing mechanism.
Helen:Yes. It does have to be and that will bring us to, let's what's the most rewarding thing because I think the the reward is gonna be being able to make my life better because I actually have the resources to do that, hire the people that I need to do for those things and be able to do
Maayan:the things that I love the most. Yeah. Honestly, I think the most rewarding and coolest part of all this is is it's that but tied to something else, which is to be able to experience that by you making your life better, you made other people's lives. Oh. At the same time, and it's not we live in this unfortunately, the the business world for lots of manipulative manipulative power hungry reasons that we won't go into, has, you know, convinced all of us that the world is a zero sum game and that when I win more, it's taking from someone else.
Maayan:We actually because of the Internet and because of technology, we live in a world where each of us, as long as we have strong positive values, meaning we care about other people, we're givers and not puretakers, when we create more value for us, we, by nature, create more value for other people. And that's, you know, something we all can know cognitively, but to experience it and feel it, to me, that's the coolest, most rewarding part
Helen:of it. Wow. Just the way you articulated that makes me feel so happy just to hear that. Because I do think at the core of everything, you know, your north star always has to be to make the world a better place. I just think we if we all had that goal, we would the the world would be in a better place, don't you think?
Helen:But it's just hearing you say it in that way takes it out of the the part that I project is gonna happen. Like, I'm projecting if I do if I was gonna start a paid community, I would immediately project be projecting, okay, people, they're getting my content for free. Why would they wanna pay for something they're already getting for free? What what am I really doing that's gonna be where them wanting to pay for it? Like, all those things would spin around in my head, and yet we just came up with the fact that somebody just wrote in the chat something so amazing, which is the way when we learn things, that's we are such better teachers because of it.
Helen:So I didn't grow up with technology. I've had to learn technology all the way. So I'm so much better at explaining it to somebody who's trying to learn it than somebody who innately grew up with it. Because they're missing steps because those things are automatic to them. And it's such a it's a cool thing to think about.
Helen:But I'm like, I have to get out of my own head about this, and I just think you're helping me.
Maayan:You're helping me. And, again, I think the the best way that we can change how we think about things is by doing things differently. Right? And I think, like, I can totally relate to I think one of the biggest fears that someone who really cares about their audience, you know, is really concerned about the the ethical, you know, value centric beliefs that they have of I don't wanna take from people and not give them value. That the biggest fear you have is that I'm gonna sell something and people are gonna give me money and they're not gonna be happy.
Helen:Mhmm.
Maayan:Right? The the wonderful thing is because of those values. And again, I've I've dealt I've dealt with lots of customer service issues where people gave me money for something in a previous business and they were not happy with it. What I can tell you is at first, it hurts. You're like, oh, I worked really hard on that.
Maayan:I I missed the mark. It is my fault clearly because, like, you're you're the customer. The cool thing though is you can right away change that feeling from pain to feeling really good by saying, I'm sorry. I I, you know, really wanna understand why you're not getting value, and I'm gonna fix it. So just having the conversation with someone where they're telling you, hey, I bought this, which first of all means that there's a perceived value that they were willing to pay for.
Maayan:Right? So you know that you can give them value. It's just for whatever reason that wasn't done. So you say, hey, thank you so much for purchasing. I really, really value the fact that you're interested to get value from me, and I'm really sorry that I didn't deliver.
Maayan:Help me understand where I missed, and I'm gonna make sure that I get you that value. Like, don't worry about it. When we make mistakes, they are not final and they are not fatal. For the most part, now there's a couple of things. Like, if you jump off of you know, there's certain, like Yeah.
Maayan:Things that literally are fatal. Don't don't do those things. Absolutely. Stay away from tigers. Like, don't pet the tiger.
Maayan:That could be a mistake. But, you know, everything else is, for the most part, something that as long as you have the ability to have a conversation with someone, which if they're communicating saying, hey. I'm unhappy. You're now in a conversation. Great.
Helen:How are we fixing this? Or what can I do to make this better?
Maayan:You can remedy that. And what I've seen consistently is when you take the time to do that in a way that makes the person feel heard, acknowledged, and valued, they go from being someone who could have been, like, the most unhappy customer ever to a super fan. They go, wow. No one's treated me so nicely when I was upset before. So it's a real huge opportunity.
Maayan:I think the, you know, the worst thing that could happen is total apathy. Right. Right. Right. It's just people not being interested at all in what you're doing.
Helen:That's terrifying. That's disheartening.
Maayan:But but I think that's very, very rare. Okay. It's it's like that that's not gonna happen if you have a highly engaged audience.
Helen:Yes. And if you really care about what you're doing. Because it's like a a lot of it for me is, you know, I'm a natural overdeliverer because I feel like I want to make everybody's life better. I wanna make a difference. I wanna help someone.
Helen:And sometimes, even with my own parents trying to help them with their phones, my mom will say, stop already. You spent enough time on it. And if I and I'm like, no. I'm gonna solve it. You know?
Helen:I am so determined. So I think that's that's in my nature. So I I feel that I'm probably gonna be that person that's like, we'll figure out what what people don't like. You know? We'll figure we'll fix it, and we'll make it better.
Helen:So that's awesome. Let's see if we can turn it to some questions. There is somebody who is asking about a Facebook group called Thrive for professionally ambitious women and would like to know the best way to promote it. So how what's your experience on Facebook? How do you promote do you do you do do you suggest ads and things like that on Facebook?
Maayan:Or Oh, it it depends. I don't know a whole lot about the the group.
Helen:To analyze. Yeah.
Maayan:If it's a if it's a paid so anything that is paid and that you're gonna make money off of from a sale, you can use Facebook ads for. Now that's a whole different, you know, ballgame where you have to optimize, you know, your your customer acquisition cost and make sure you have enough margin in your product. So, like, how much are you spending on the ad versus how much are you making on the product, not just how much does the product cost because you have a a margin in there. Facebook ads are still great. You know, different, categories of product are gonna have different costs for the ad.
Maayan:So what I mean by that is some categories are really expensive to advertise in, and some are a lot cheaper in. There's also lots of different methods you can advertise, something that's free that then leads to something paid. You can have something called, for example, you have a free offer that has a bump offer, meaning that they get a free ebook. But then after they put in all their info, there's a little box at the bottom that says, would you like to add this thing for an extra $2, $5.70?
Helen:I see.
Maayan:That has a really high high conversion rate. So there's all these different tactics from an ads side. When it comes to organic, marketing, I would say, you know, depending on how many followers you have and, like, how many people you have engaged on your personal Facebook page, personal Facebook, you know, pages or just your personal personal Facebook account. I would say account more than if you've converted it into a page. Those can be highly, highly, highly engaged.
Maayan:So, those can work really well. I would say another strategy, this takes a longer time and more effort, is to build strategic relationships and partnerships with other groups. So advertising one group through another group, that can be effective. I would say, you know, having, like, live Zooms or workshops or webinars, that's another really great way to promote, you know, a group inviting someone to something free. They can learn more about it or you're specifically giving them a particular type of value.
Maayan:So whatever the Thryv community is promoting to have a a free class where you're just giving people free information and then letting them know also, hey. If you got value from this webinar, make sure to join the the Thrive Facebook, group as well. Yeah.
Helen:That's awesome. You mentioned collaboration, which is a great word. Irina says thank you for the answer, by the way, so appreciate that. But, in terms of collaboration, I've it's funny that we I was just talking about this last week on the podcast when I was talking about a podcast, how to have a podcast. And I'm like, Keith, the fun thing about a podcast is that you can collaborate just like I'm doing here.
Helen:And I'm learning every single time I bring someone on here. It's it's been amazing for me, honestly.
Maayan:I'm selfish of you. I'm just kidding. For real. But everybody else
Helen:is learning too. But it's, like, so cool because not only that. I mean, now, hopefully, my audience that who are then gonna hear this as a as a release on a newsletter as well as a podcast are gonna be familiar with you and say, okay. This is somebody who's creating paid communities. I'm gonna reach out to her and ask her how to do it.
Helen:Can can I hire her to do it? And can I become a client? So how would people reach you? And and what and are you doing an active sales pitch? Are you doing more of like an organic how are you collecting your clients currently?
Maayan:Yeah. So, I mean, I've been getting a lot of good referrals from people. I also have, like, a robust network on on LinkedIn and and through Instagram, and and I just have a really good network. So I've mostly been tapping into my network. You know, I would say, luckily, I'm at a point where I probably only have capacity for a couple more people right now before I then have to go into the hiring process, which is great.
Maayan:But, yeah, I mean, people can reach out to me. LinkedIn is the easiest way to get in touch with me. Okay. So I don't know if you'll you probably link my
Helen:Yeah. I'll link it. I'll link that in
Maayan:the in
Helen:the show notes.
Maayan:My name, it's unique enough, like, I'm sure I'll pop up.
Helen:It sure is, Maayan. Yeah.
Maayan:Yeah. So, like, I my my I'm the only Maayan Gordon that has as many followers as I do on LinkedIn. So, if you type in my name, I'll I'll pop up and send me a connection request. I'll accept it for sure, and you can send me a message. You know?
Maayan:Even just, like, commenting, hey. I saw that podcast you were on on one of my posts. I'll I'll respond and connect you
Helen:with you.
Maayan:So anyway you do that, I'll respond.
Helen:What's what's really funny is your name is very unusual, and I don't think my name is unusual. However, if you type in Helen Polisi, there's not many of me either, which is I don't even think I've ever found another one, which is strange.
Maayan:Your last name is super unique.
Helen:I think that might be it. And and combined with Helen, which is already a rare name for any you know, it's not that popular of a name. So I guess I should
Maayan:with one l at that.
Helen:There you go. It's interesting. But so I guess we're we're both lucky in that front. You have to help me with LinkedIn too. I'm, like, really excited to see that.
Maayan:We're gonna have we're I'm gonna help you with that.
Helen:We should
Maayan:do a whole huge fan of LinkedIn.
Helen:On LinkedIn. And I was so this year, I was like, I'm gonna do more LinkedIn. And I really went hard from January. And I found, I had a thing where I talked about this another time where a client I was working with, and I'm so used to people now saying when they meet me in person, oh, I feel like I know you because I've seen you on TikTok. This woman said, I feel like I know you because I've seen you on LinkedIn.
Helen:I almost like fell over because I don't have a big following on LinkedIn. But it proves that it's not the size of the following necessarily. It's who's watching. And those you know, the people on LinkedIn that are watching are tend to be more in a way in a a different area of wanting to hire you. And that's where I think that changes the game a lot.
Maayan:Yeah. No. I mean, LinkedIn, right, was built as a like, back in the day, it was just a black book for for people to have their contacts and get jobs. But it it's a, you know, primarily, it's a place to help people, get jobs with their you know, grow their businesses and, you know, elevate their careers, which so if that's if you're interested in making money or getting more clients or getting a better job, like, LinkedIn is the place for you. I think that's everyone.
Helen:Yeah. I guess so. I the unfortunate thing is that a lot of people on LinkedIn are immediately, like, going into the chat with, like, a sales pitch, and that becomes like, hey. So it's a tricky it's a tricky thing to navigate, I think, even though
Maayan:Yeah. A lot of people hate LinkedIn because there's so much. They call it pitch slapping, which is a great term.
Helen:It is.
Maayan:And, basically and and this is just something like, you know, I don't let it bother me anymore.
Helen:If you let
Maayan:it bother you, you're gonna be bothered, like, every day. But, you know, I would say maybe not half, but, like, a significant portion of people who reach out to you with a connection request. You'll accept the connection request, and they'll send you a message that sounds like either, hi. My name is so and so, and here's what I do. Let me know if you're interested in any of my services, which, like, even if I was, now I'm not.
Maayan:Oh, no. And the other is, I would say, people who are a little trying to be a little bit more sneaky, and they'll say, hey. I wanna get to know you. Let's hop on a call right away before they've, like, actually made any effort to get to know you. And what they mean is I wanna get you on a sales call ASAP in sales.
Maayan:So that's you know, for me, I think that creates actually an a big opportunity. Any place that's super sales y, I see as a place that is easier for me to sell in.
Helen:Oh my god.
Maayan:All it means is I have to act all I have to do is be human. And, like, we actually care about people, and I will seem so amazing compared to all these sales y people just because I, like, genuinely wanna know
Helen:how to
Maayan:explain and what you've been up to. And that feels good. Like, I don't know. It feels bad for me to be just, like, sales y anyway, so I don't wanna Yes.
Helen:I have the same problem. I think we're we're cut from the same cloth in that way. I just don't I don't don't you don't have to buy this. You know? That's why I've never was, like, one for the TikTok shop.
Helen:I'm like, I'm not gonna try and sell you a water bottle or, like, a try I did the test once, and I thought, okay. I could be good at it, but it's just not what I feel comfortable doing. So doesn't feel good
Maayan:to me. Like, for me, I love sharing stuff, but literally the difference between going, you guys, this is so cool, and I love it. And, hey, guys. Check this out. It's it's so cool.
Maayan:You should buy it. The second one feels so bad to me. And the first one, I'm very excited to, like, share the cool LEGO I bought. I don't need to tell you to buy it. If you like it, go buy it too.
Maayan:I just wanna
Helen:share it
Maayan:to you.
Helen:Amazing. You're amazing. I think I wanna be your next client. Let's just put it on record right here now. Okay.
Helen:Do we like this? Because I do.
Maayan:I think you're what I'll say is I think you're incredibly set up. When you said who's a good, you know, person for me to work with, Why you would be a great person is you also have an email list. And I think the email list is one of the most undervalued things that no matter what level content creator you are, you should start in a newsletter. You should start some type of email list because at least then you have some type of email list because at least then you have people's contact info. On social media, you are relying a 100% on the algorithm reaching people.
Maayan:You cannot message people, like, in mass directly. You can do it 1 on 1, which is would be crazy.
Helen:Oh my god. Crazy. And the algorithm is so crappy on every platform right now, so you cannot I've always said that. I think early on and I'm like you a little bit. I'm a sponge when it comes to social media things.
Helen:I listen, I learn. I listen, I learn. Sometimes I don't even remember where I get it from because I'm always absorbing. But I remember an early, early experience on on the app of somebody suggesting an email list, and I thought, I'm getting on that immediately. And so before I even had the socialized email list, I star I did, like, a mothership email list.
Helen:So I already had when I started the socialized list with Julie, I already had 5,000 subscribers from my mothership one. And that was just from I wasn't even sending out newsletters at that point. I was just collect collecting the emails. It is super smart, and I love the email list, and I love the podcast. So it's funny that I have evolved from loving making content to loving podcasting almost more and creating that that newsletter reach out because I think it's I'm in touch more, and I think that's what I like.
Helen:I truly like being in touch more.
Maayan:I totally get that. You know? And, again, like you said, we're cut for the Same for me. To me for me, the motivating factor the only reason that I feel motivated to post on social is if someone responds to it with a comment or a direct message. The views mean and I'm not trying to be, like, ungrateful, but they mean nothing to me from a motivation point because I don't like, I'm not connected to any of the people who saw it.
Maayan:But if someone messages me and says, hey. I really, like, resonated with that post you did, which is why I spend much more time on LinkedIn is because I get way more of that interaction direct interaction with people. And on TikTok, I don't get direct You don't get it. Right. I actually have the opposite because
Helen:I don't try very hard, but I
Maayan:honestly say I almost like when my post
Helen:do do worse because I don't have as many comments, and then I can respond to them all. Yep. And they're gonna have more time. So it's it's a weird backwards thing. That's why people like, well, you know, don't complain about your views.
Helen:Be happy that you can answer every comment because, you know, there's times when you can't do that. So I guess I do have always appreciated the and I've always thought of it as one person watching, and that's how I still proceed. But I have enjoyed this so much. I've learned so much. I hope everybody in the that's here live has learned and now anybody that's listening to it in the future.
Helen:So thank you so much for being here. You're wonderful. You can find Maayan Gordon. I'm going to put her connection in the show notes. We'll have some other little tidbits in the show notes for you, and you can reach out to her if you want to learn more about what she's doing.
Maayan:Yeah. I'll do one one last pitch. I'm gonna give you a link to a since we're talking so much about LinkedIn, and I I love it, I created a free LinkedIn profile checklist to help people opt because the pro it really does matter if you don't have, like, some of the elements. People either think you're, like, not a real account or, you know, it's just, like, similar things. So, and it helps optimize.
Maayan:So I'm gonna send you the link. Anyone who wants that is completely free.
Helen:I'm doing I'm linking and doing it. Whatever is it so it's a checklist you go through and make sure it's
Maayan:a problem. Yeah. I created I have to double check that you can click boxes on a PDF or if I need to have it as a Word document.
Helen:Okay.
Maayan:But, yeah, it's literally it has check boxes. It has, like, little bonus tips and exercises. So it's very actionable. Yeah.
Helen:Absolutely. This is a pitch for LinkedIn because I think peep more people should pay attention to it. I'm so happy I started paying attention to it. 2024 was my big pay attention to LinkedIn, And it's served me well because I'm getting a lot of professional production work from it. Thanks to that.
Helen:So That's awesome. Alright. Well, thank you so much, and I appreciate you. And I will see everyone else on Tuesday. Bye.