Ali Abdaal 0:00
Hello and welcome to deep dive the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfilment at work and in life. My name is Ali and in each episode I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. This week I sit down with web designer, content creator and entrepreneur Alia known for his polished minimalist aesthetic online and premium tech blog. ultralink folio has built a following of over 100,000, to which he shares his tips on tech lifestyle and financial independence. In our conversation, we talk about everything from dropping out of school and making $600,000 from selling tumbler themes.
Oliur 0:38
I'm in a very fortunate position where I get to do stuff that I enjoy already for work - I just happen to also make money from it.
Ali Abdaal 0:44
to the art of dropshipping and the lessons he learned from beating cancer. Alright, Oliur. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing?
Oliur 0:51
I'm doing okay.
Ali Abdaal 0:52
We still don't have a name for the podcast. We were brainstorming podcast names earlier this morning. I liked unplugged
Ali Abdaal 0:57
Unplugged. Okay.
Oliur 0:59
I liked unplugged. But it's not my podcast.
Ali Abdaal 1:01
I mean, unplugged could work. afternoon tea deep dive, I'm sure. I'm sure by the time this goes out, we actually will have a name for the podcast. And so when I do my intro about you, I will say, Hey, friends, welcome back to the podcast. And people won't know that this is a. Anyway, first thing I wanted to ask you. How the hell have you made over $600,000 from selling Tumblr themes? Like what what's going on there? What was the story?
Oliur 1:25
Okay, so this is a good story. So I've done a video on it before, but I'll just go through exactly what I said. But obviously, I was into I was into tumblers and to using Tumblr, I had my Tumblr blog, where I suppose images and stuff, it was literally like having a mood board. That's what that's how I use Tumblr, I used it as a mood board. I like posting images on there. And I thought, hey, I want to modify my tumblr website, I want to I want to, I want to make it look more like what I want it to look like, you know, I want it to be more me. So I started messing around with the code and stuff, messing around with the design itself. I thought, Hey, you know, let's see what I can do. And I sort of just fell into messing around and making Tumblr themes. It was literally by chance. And then I could see, hey, tumblr had a Tumblr theme gardendale selling themes on that, I had no idea how much people were making on that device. I thought it was maybe like $1,000 $2,000 a month. So then I started just making themes going into it not really having high expectations, went into it. And then who I was one or two months where I made like, $30,000 a month. And as I was just like, what I was like 21 at the time. So you can imagine 21 you're having that sort of money. It's just like, holy crap, like, what am I gonna do now, I feel like that was actually a very big turning point in my life. Because before that, I was earning quite little money. But the type of things definitely transformed my life toggle probably don't need that. literally changed my life, in terms of what I can do, and the possibilities that came along from that.
Ali Abdaal 2:51
So you had a Tumblr blog, and you decided you wanted to modify your own page to make it look more like you. And then you thought, let's sell - How much were you selling these things for?
Oliur 2:59
So Tumblr has three different pricing models, well three different pricing tiers $9 $19.40 $9 I was trying to make themes on the higher end $49 there were some small simple themes that were not $19 but most of them were $49 each, okay.
Ali Abdaal 3:15
And so you make the theme once and then you can sell it multiple times for $49 who ever wants to use that theme to make that Tumblr page look like it was can use it? Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Ali Abdaal 3:23
How did you know how to make Tumblr themes like
Ali Abdaal 3:26
Well tumblr luckily have very easy documentation that you can follow. And it's nowhere near as complicated as some of the other sort of platforms out there like WordPress, you could say. Tumblr is very simple. I think anyone who learns HTML, CSS can learn to make a Tumblr theme is very, very simple.
Ali Abdaal 3:42
Fairplay. So how old were you when you stumbled onto this goldmine of Tumblr themes?
Oliur 3:48
I knew of Tumblr since I was like, 1819. But making actual Tumblr things and making money I was around like, 20-21.
Ali Abdaal 3:55
Fair play. Okay. So I wonder if we can rewind back to sort of early life. So let's say you know, what were you like in in secondary school sort of aged aged 11 to 18. How did you spend your time? Were you like a massive nerd back then, as well. Like, what was the vibe?
Oliur 4:09
I feel like I was one of those kids that sort of sat in the background at school. I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I was a nerd. But I also want to say I was like, Oh, really popular kid, you know, I was just passively going to school, mainly because I didn't enjoy school. But yeah, like my school life, I didn't really enjoy school that much fun wise. I'm not a very academic person.
Ali Abdaal 4:27
Okay. And then you didn't go to university?
Oliur 4:29
No.
Ali Abdaal 4:30
So what did what did you do instead?
Oliur 4:32
So I went to college, because I didn't even do a levels. I went to college, and I did like a level three course that will focus on on accounting and business because I thought, Oh, it's going to become an accountant. I'm really glad that didn't happen. But once I was doing that, that's when I started getting into computers and stuff. That's when I start getting into websites and stuff like that, because I started my blog, the entrepreneur.com that I don't really post them anymore. It's kind of dead now, but start Basically on that 2010 2010. And what sparked that was an Android phone that I bought at the time on an Android phone. I wanted to customise it, you know, changing your icons and wallpapers was like a really big thing was quite nerdy thing to do. And I would share it on the blog. And I guess that's where I started when it comes to building any sort of online presence.
Ali Abdaal 5:22
So you're you would have been around 17 ish at the time.
Oliur 5:27
Yeah, yeah, they're about 17-18. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 5:29
Okay. So it's a pretty random for process to have at the age of 17. You know what, I want to customise my Android phone, therefore, I'm going to start a blog, like, what was the what was the link there?
Oliur 5:40
So the first place that I actually started finding people customising their phones was a forum widget form online, and people were posting their, their screens on the forum, that post in the customization on the floor. And I just thought to myself, hey, you know why I can post them on the forum, but also posted on a blog, my own sort of little corner of the internet, you could say. So I posted there, and I get people to comment on my blog as well. And that's how I sort of built it. And that's what sort of sparked me to make the blog.
Ali Abdaal 6:07
Okay and this was a Tumblr blog.
Ali Abdaal 6:09
No, this was actually just a normal WordPress. So he went back it was Google blogspot. Oh, wow. It's really old school and moved over to WordPress, I think in 2012.
Ali Abdaal 6:22
Okay, so two years later, yeah. So what sort of stuff were you posting on the blog for that two year period.
Oliur 6:25
Two year period, I was just posting, I was posting anything I found interesting. Okay. I was mostly interested in like design and stuff, from product design, all these different things. I post, like, I'll even post like Apple news, or like, new phone, new smartphone, news, all these different things. Literally, whatever, I found interesting, there wasn't any rigid structure.
Ali Abdaal 6:42
But it was just whatever I liked, and what sort of traffic we're getting to the blog between in that time period.
Oliur 6:46
I think 2012-2013 I was getting over a half a million views a month. Bloody hell. So a lot of you say that at the time. I wasn't really making much money from it, okay, cuz I didn't really know how to monetize it. And CPM is one that high back, either. So yeah, it wasn't really making much money from my blog until around 2013.
Ali Abdaal 7:08
Okay, so you started the blog in 2010. posting about these Android things, or posting random stuff that you were interested in? How did it get so popular so as to have 500,000 views a month?
Oliur 7:17
I honestly don't know. I think it's just a matter of people like seeing the customizations. I guess it goes down to another reason why I guess people like follow me on Instagram or YouTube. They like my sort of the sound so pompous. But they like my sort of style. aesthetic. You could say you've even said it before, like, I had this, like so on certain aesthetic. And I think that's what people liked it. Okay. That's what people like to tell me anyway.
Ali Abdaal 7:41
And then how did you develop this aesthetic over time?
Oliur 7:44
I honestly don't know. Yeah, I think it is just one of those things where it's like, hey, like this hair like that. I think I didn't really have anyone where they sort of sparked my interest in that aesthetic. Yep. I think it was just a matter of, Hey, you know, I grew up in a house where everything was really messy. Yep. And now I want everything to be like really sort of clean and minimal. So I think that's what makes white entry slanted the opposite.
Ali Abdaal 8:10
So let's say we're in 2010, you've posted your first blog post presumably no one is reading the blog at this point because it's your first blog post. And then presumably, you had to post fairly consistently to build kind of the the authority and the blog over time. How did you bring yourself to continue to post on it in the early days when you weren't getting that feedback of views and comments and stuff?
Oliur 8:36
Yeah of course. I think I'll see when you were like 17-18 19-20 that sort of age range. I feel like you kind of just a lot of the things you do you do because you enjoy it right? You don't go into making money into it like make thinking that you're gonna make a lot of money. And that is literally it. I just enjoyed sharing that stuff online. I enjoyed sharing like like UD like you make these videos, everyone makes these videos, YouTube maybe videos because they want to share their opinions, wherever they're making whatever they're doing, same sort of thing for me, and I wanted to do it on a blog.
Ali Abdaal 9:08
So now we're in 2013 your blog is getting half a million hits a month, like what are you? What are the what are the day in your life look like?
Oliur 9:15
So at the time, I see I was I was at college, I was studying and stuff, loving our college and I'd only go to college I think three or four times a week. So the rest of the time I had a lot of free time and it's why I would post on my blog is why I would do that sort of stuff. Again, my schedule was very open. Like it is now i don't i don't like to have a rigid structure. But I did obviously nearly everyday post off on the blog, because I enjoy doing a I've had a few hours here and there. I would just do it because I do it.
Ali Abdaal 9:45
Okay, so at what point did a turn from something you enjoy doing into more of like a business? If ever.
Oliur 9:51
2013 I think. When I left college, I thought to myself, okay, I can either go to university, I can carry on with this blog thing. Like I said, I wasn't really making any money. I wasn't making much money. But I thought to myself, let's give myself 12 months. If I can make, say, two grand a month, for example, then I'm rolling like two grand a month. That's 24,000 pounds a year for me. And I'm 21 that's crazy money for me at the time. And yeah, like 2013 the blog was making us all money. And then I remember there was someone who was making like five grand a month, $5,000 a month.
Ali Abdaal 10:25
How was it making money? In the early days
Oliur 10:27
Through banner ads, like Google AdSense.
Ali Abdaal 10:29
Really? Making up to 5k a month from Google AdSense on a blog?
Oliur 10:33
Yeah, and sponsored posts as well. So sometimes, you know, brand would be like, Hey, can we post our product? Can we post a link or whatever? And I would charge for that.
Ali Abdaal 10:45
Okay, so you've got this blog that was then going on? What was your next sort of hustle that you added to the to the mix?
Oliur 10:51
My themes, so the themes theme really took over, because obviously, the themes making 20 $30,000 a month, that's much more of a liquidity thing to do than the blog. So that's why I focus a lot of my time, and that's why I focus my time for around two years, three years, okay. like making more and more themes, or Yeah, making more more themes, and supporting the themes, because obviously, there'll be a lot of people who buy one, and they need to customise all they need to change something. And I had quite a few, I say, famous people like, Justin Bieber, for example, was used. But I'm sure it wasn't Justin Bieber himself, I'm sure was his team. Had brands like BMW, and some other random brands as well. Some, like big companies use my mind over themes, I think is actually really great to see like, it sort of gave me that sort of seal of approval, you could say, showing that, hey, if these brands are using it, then surely I'm doing something, right.
Ali Abdaal 11:45
Yeah, I remember around around that time, like 2013 to 2015 I was getting I was using WordPress quite a lot for my business that I'd set up at the time. And on places like themeforest I was seeing just how much money people were making through WordPress themes. And I tried to dabble with WordPress theme development myself one summer, I just went down the rabbit hole. And it was just so hard that I thought, you know what, I see why these guys are making the big bucks from from selling these teams for $50. So you're working on this on this for two years? What did that what did that feel like that first month where you suddenly make $30,000 that's just completely insane for like a 21 year old.
Oliur 12:25
At 21 making that sort of money.
Ali Abdaal 12:27
In fact, even even like now, you know, that's like a doctor's salary for a whole year that you made in a month off of selling website themes.
Oliur 12:35
No you're completely right, making that sort of money, even now, it's just insane. But yeah, it's funny, I just thought to myself, I luckily didn't go off the rails didn't really go crazy, hey, I'm making all this money, let's spend this right away, I saved a lot of it, I saved a lot of it, because I realised like, just growing up without money anyway, like my friends, you know, they didn't have, they have a lot of money, they don't have like any high paying jobs or whatever. I knew that, you know, making this sort of money. This is some of the most money ever, like even my parents have ever seen. So I knew that I couldn't waste it, I knew that I had to put it away and do something with it. So I knew from quite early on maybe since I was like 1920, that it was important to save up for like a deposit for house, for example. I knew that was important. And that's what I did. I save a lot of it just so that I could buy my own place and not be dependent on my parents.
Ali Abdaal 13:28
I really liked this point that you made about how, in the early days, you're not you're not really doing it for the money, you're doing it because you enjoy it. I wanted to ask, did you enjoy like 100% of it? Or like 80% of it? Like what were the big because because everything has bits that are like less fun? Like, how do you how did you think about those back in the day?
Oliur 13:46
Yeah, sure. So the way I see is, sometimes you got to go through a little bit of struggle here and there to have like that delayed gratification, you could say, well, you know, going through a struggle for Labour or just doing something you don't like means that it can you can do something that you do like almost in a way it's like it's like vice versa sort of exchange almost in a way. That's how I see it. And I still I still sort of stand by that I sort of think to myself, hey, you know, if I work hard now if I do this now if I just get it done now I don't have to think about it later, even for example, you know, I don't know, he probably no, this is like, I have in my kitchen dirty, for example, having the dishes and stuff. I just think to myself, it only takes me five minutes to put my dishes away. I just do it now because once it's done, I don't have to think about it later on. Okay, so that sort of thing for me.
Ali Abdaal 14:31
Okay, so what was the what were the areas of struggle that that were the equivalent to the putting the dishes away? Sure, in this sort of business.
Oliur 14:38
So when I when I was doing the tumbler themes, for example, the hardest part was doing the more complex coding. So I wasn't very good with Java, JavaScript, for example. So something like that I really didn't enjoy doing I didn't want to learn it. So with the themes that I had made the simpler themes I use the money that I made from those themes to hire an external developer, to make an Do the more complex stuff for me. And you can hire someone to do that quite cheaply. If you find someone online, you know, doesn't have to be something in the UK it can be it can be somebody that you go somewhere in the US, but finding a JavaScript developer just to make a few changes here and there to add some things to a theme that you've already made is quite affordable.
Ali Abdaal 15:17
Okay, no fair play. And and just on this note of like, having having fun with stuff, do you think for you, you do you think for you, it was more that you found something that you happen to find fun? Or alternatively that you found ways to make this thing fun for yourself? Like what? Yeah,
Oliur 15:36
I think I found something that was just fun. Like I, I wasn't looking for it. I just, I literally just stumbled across it. Like I was into customising my phone at the time anyway, like, you know, when I'm not when we talk about the blog, starting the blog and stuff. I just enjoy customising my phone. The side benefit was, Hey, I can share this with people. And then also you just sort of spiralled into doing all these different things. And now, here I am. Doing this with Yeah. Which is just so hilarious when he, when I think back, like, all these little things have led me here. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 16:09
And do you think would it be fair to say that you were like, VA, but kind of just chasing the things that you found fun at each junction? And it happened to lead you here? Or was there more of a sort of strategic vision behind any of this stuff?
Oliur 16:23
There is some strategic sort of strategic sort of vision. But I don't think is like very, I don't like I said, I don't really have like a proper structure. I sort of just think to myself, hey, okay, what is it I enjoy doing now? Like, as an adult now as, as a 28 year old? I think to myself, what is it I enjoy doing now? And you know, can I can I make money from it? Is it something I can enjoy, I can see myself doing and say, two years, five years, 10 years, whatever. That's how I see things now. But I wasn't like that when I was like 20 years old. 21 years old. I kind of just thought, hey, let's see what happens. Let's see how things go. Because you just don't know you don't have the life experience. Right? So you just don't know.
Ali Abdaal 17:08
So the sounds like 2010 to 2013. It was like your blog days. And then 2013 through 2015 was your Tumblr theme heyday. So now it's 2015? Or what? what's what's all you're doing in 2015?
Oliur 17:24
2015 was a big year, not in terms of money in terms of what I was going to do next. So 2015 was actually when I got my first office and made my first hire. So 2015, June 2015. I've got my own office space. And that's actually where I started making each of those as well. My first YouTube video is a tour of my office space that I made with my iPhone. He don't even see my face on it. Yep. So this is just me here in Rancho Martha's place. Why did you get an office space? Just because I was still at home living at home with my parents, okay. Working from a room, which was like three by three years. Tiny. I couldn't even fit a wardrobe and I had like a bed and a desk.
Ali Abdaal 18:03
So you're making 30k a month and you thinking, you know what, let's, let's upgrade, the live setup. Okay, so
Oliur 18:09
I ended up getting an office for quite cheap is only like 9000 pounds a year. So very, very cheap. office space. But it was about the size of my parents house. So I just thought, Hey, this is good. Yeah, investing. And it means I know how my parents always sort of like, coming in and being like, hey, all he can do that. Yeah, you know, I'd be happy walking in randomly, you know, rather say, have a proper office space where I can actually work from and where I can have employee. Yeah, well, so who was your first hire? So Charlie, was my first I went to college with him. We kept in touch, like, because I left college like 2012. We kept in touch over the years. And yeah, I was just like, hey, Charlie, do some work for me. And he's like, Yeah, let's do it. And he's been working for me since.
Ali Abdaal 18:52
So what was he doing for you in the early days?
Oliur 18:54
So in the early days, Charlie was actually posting on the blog. He was he took over the blog, pretty much he was managing that that website. And then his role in the business in the company changed. It keeps changing. To be honest, he doesn't have a specific role. I like to call him Operations Manager knows. Because it makes him you know, it sounds important.
Ali Abdaal 19:15
Yeah. I mean, that's similar to anguses, which is operations director.
Oliur 19:20
You know, I'm just like, hey, Charlie, I need this day. Only that day. Can you do it? Whatever? Yeah. Charlie's very flexible visor. Nice. Having a person like that. And I'm sure you know, because you have Angus.
Ali Abdaal 19:31
Yeah, just sort of doing any anything and everything.
Ali Abdaal 19:33
If like anything comes up, and you don't have the time or maybe you just you literally just can't do it. You need someone else to do it.
Ali Abdaal 19:38
Yep. Nice. So it's 2015 you've got office space, what prompted you to turn it into a YouTube video, because that was also a bit of a weird thing to do in 2015, that it's not a thought process. A lot of people would have had that. Hey, let me let me film a YouTube video of my office.
Oliur 19:53
Yeah. So when I got my office space, I was like any person, start looking for inspiration now. office space setups and stuff. Of course, both of our channels are like, yeah, office workspace setups are some of the most popular videos. So I saw all these little setups on on YouTube and stuff. And I thought to myself, hey, I can just share my one because I was also posting on Instagram over time. And I will share pictures of my workspace on Instagram. And I used to get a lot of comments, or people asking me Hey, can you post a video of it on YouTube? Have you ever seen a video and that's why I sort of fell into just doing YouTube.
Ali Abdaal 20:31
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Oliur 21:48
Well, it's funny because I still don't see myself as a YouTuber. Because I don't do YouTube full time. I still do YouTube probably two or two days a week.
Ali Abdaal 21:56
Oh, you're part time YouTuber. Yeah.
Oliur 22:00
I didn't know when I decided hey, you know, I can just start a YouTube. I think it is just because I know a thing that you like to always say is you need to be consistent. If you want to buy a YouTube channel need to consistently post Yep. But for me, it wasn't like that. For me, I was posting whenever I just wanted to post I didn't have a schedule, okay, or maybe post two videos a week some and then I might not post for like a month, because I was still wanting other parts of my business. But as YouTube started growing, and as as the incomes that I gained from YouTube, I realised, hey, I'm onto something here. And I started dedicating more time to it. And that's why now I dedicate two days a week. But I don't ever see YouTube becoming a full time thing for me. Ideally, I don't actually want it to be okay, mainly because I like doing other stuff. I like starting other businesses. I like running other businesses. I just can't see myself doing YouTube full time. Okay,
Ali Abdaal 22:54
how did you get your first let's say, one 1000 to 10,000 subscribers
Oliur 22:58
through Instagram. Okay, so on Instagram, if we go back a bit on Instagram, I was posting pictures of setups and products and things like that. And I was growing very quickly on Instagram. Instagram algorithm at the time was very favourable to me. I was gaining around 10,000 followers a month at one point. Wow. Which is just crazy. I don't think I've ever had a month on YouTube where I've gotten 10,000 subscribers. But yeah, from there. It just, I started directing people yeah, be like, hey, come to my YouTube channel, my blog, I've uploaded a video there. And I realised from doing that, that I enjoy making videos, I enjoy doing all the stuff that goes into videos, and also realise that hey, I can make quite a bit more money on youtube compared to Instagram. And I'll also realise that Instagram was sort of they changed the algorithm they changed the way things work Instagram is not the same as it was 2015 2015 or do you can only scrambles post photos I think you couldn't base videos you can post or anything you can import post portray photos I think we're still square. In Yeah, so so I focus a lot more on YouTube now compared to any of my other social
Ali Abdaal 24:08
channels. So if we it's it sounds like the the trajectory of things from like 2010 to 2015 ish was, you find this thing that you enjoy, ie product design and this sort of aesthetic, you post about it alongside like phone customizations and stuff on the blog. You stopped posting on the blog consistently. The Tumblr theme thing sort of is a bit of a side gig that's not fully related to that, but I suppose your aesthetic kind of comes into that as well.
Oliur 24:33
I think one thing we didn't talk about was in that time, I'd say between 2013 and 20 1720. So yeah, 20 I was doing our plant work as well quite work. So what we're doing with like, for example, designing websites, designing apps, things like that, okay. And that also came about because I was obviously customising the Android phone, to customise your Android phone. You have to go into Photoshop, and You have to mess around with graphics and UI elements like that. Again, it's just nothing I enjoy doing. And overtime, I agree, I've got the confidence of like, maybe I can charge money for this, maybe I can, maybe I can, you know, post my, my designs online and see if anyone hires me. And I used to post on a website called dribble. Oh, yeah. So dribble was very popular from like, 2012 to 2015 2016. Time. And I got a lot of love a lot of clients through dribble. Okay, so, and they were, although I say, most of them were quite high paying clients. So at some of the things going had the blogger, and I was doing design work. So I had a good sight of three, four income streams. They're doing awesome stuff, and I enjoyed doing all of it. I just enjoyed doing all of it. I wasn't always busy, because I didn't have client work all the time. But the client work, it was great. I enjoyed doing stuff for other for other companies and just having that experience.
Ali Abdaal 25:55
Okay. And it sounds like it all sort of stemmed from this decision in 2010 to post on a blog. Yeah. Because one thing I often say to people is that like starting a blog can literally change your life. And that seems like that's been the case view
Oliur 26:07
was probably one of the best cases. Right?
Ali Abdaal 26:11
Nice. Okay, so getting back to the story. So where were we at 2015. At this point, you've got your blog, you've got your Tumblr themes that are selling, you've got your client work, it's on the side, you've got your Instagram, and you've just started YouTube. What does kind of all yours Empire look like, for the next few years?
Oliur 26:28
So from 2015 2019, I was going to the office every day. In 2019. Yeah, I was pretty much going selfies every day. But in 2017, I bought my own house, purchase my house. And ever since I bought my own house, I was sort of splitting the time between the office and home, mainly because there's gonna sound so ridiculous because half an hour commute. I just thought, Hey, I could do a lot of my work at home. Yep. And then he's going to the office, because at home, it's just me. There's no one to disturb me. I don't have any sort of distractions from family or anything. So yes, it's all of those sort of years, I was doing the same sort of stuff. I was doing themes. I was doing design work. I was doing YouTube and Instagram and stuff. But I also started a Shopify store I started you will x.com store.com in 2017 2016 2017. I was experimenting with Shopify at the time, I actually started a few Shopify stores. Yep. Because drop shipping was a big thing at the time. Okay. And I started doing drop shipping, just to see what it's like. And I realised drop shipping it at the time, it was a bit of a flattened got a bad rap.
Ali Abdaal 27:40
Okay, for people who might be listening who don't know what Shopify dropshipping are? Or what would you describe those.
Oliur 27:45
So Shopify is just the platform. So use Shopify to sell products, online, physical products online, and then drop shipping is when you have products on your store. But then you don't actually have the products in stock with you. You have someone else send the products, maybe a factory in China, or factory in the UK, or manufacturer or it could just be old Jim who lives down the road and makes makes leather wallets in his little shed or whatever, you know, he you would just send them auditor to that person to the drop shipper. And they would send the order directly to the customer. So there's no, you don't have to get involved with the actual product management and shipping the product. You're sort of just making the sell getting the customer.
Ali Abdaal 28:29
Okay, so customer buys from your site, but what the customer probably doesn't realise is that behind the scenes, Jim has got his collection of leather goods, and Jim is the one sending him the thing. Yes, but it's as if you're the one sending in thinking, Okay, how does how does that work? Like why? Why does that work?
Oliur 28:43
So it's funny because I feel like drop shipping gets a bad rap because of long shipping times and things like that. What I think a lot of people don't realise is that every single major company in the world apart from Amazon, does drop shipping, even Apple does drop shipping quite well. Because Apple obviously have a fulfilment Centre in Ireland, for example, for the UK, and that's where all the products are shipped. And that fulfilment centre might not actually be run by Apple, it won't be run by completely third party.
Ali Abdaal 29:12
Yeah, when I get Apple products from like synchrotron or some some company like that, I'm like, What the hell this thing? Yeah, it's just
Oliur 29:17
it's just a third party handling all the logistics and the, and the shipping and everything for Apple. And that's a very common thing. Okay. Which people don't seem to realise drop shipping isn't a new thing. It's been around for decades. It's been around for
Ali Abdaal 29:28
a long time. Cuz I guess when you hear drop shipping, you think scam. Yeah.
Oliur 29:32
Yeah. Which is such a shame. It's like, it's like the word entrepreneur now.
Ali Abdaal 29:35
Yeah. That's a bit crazy. Yeah.
Oliur 29:37
Same with dropshipping. I think that's exactly what's happening. Okay.
Ali Abdaal 29:40
So you were one of the oh geez. I guess 2017 was really odd. But like you were dabbling, dabbling in dropshipping.
Oliur 29:47
And I was making maybe a couple of $1,000 a month, but it wasn't very profitable, and it wasn't a good business. Okay.
Ali Abdaal 29:55
So how are you making a couple of $1,000 a month from drop shipping? Like what what does that look like? So
Oliur 29:59
a couple 1000 This month, graphing was pretty good. Yeah, it was pretty good. But it wasn't very profitable. Oh, isn't
Ali Abdaal 30:05
revenue wise as opposed to profit wise? Yeah. So what sort of stuff were you selling?
Oliur 30:08
So it would have been like MacBook sleeves and, and felt desk mats and things like that, okay, you know, I had I buy them from China, whatever. But I realised that doing drop shipping like that the shipping times are just way too long for customers. So I took it a step further. And other words of myself, Hey, why don't I have the space, I have this, this office space, I can store the products here. So I would bulk buy products at any normal retail outlet, any normal business or bulk buy the products, I store them in my office space. And we would send them out from here, we would send them to customers in the UK, in the EU and the US, because it's much quicker than having a supplier in China do it for us.
Ali Abdaal 30:45
Okay, so you would buy like 1000 units in bulk of like a MacBook sleeve from China, store them in your house slash office? Yeah. And physically, like ship them to people around the world.
Oliur 30:55
Because you have a lot more control over the customer service. Yeah, and sort of the way the business works. It's also quite a bit more profitable, because obviously you're buying products in bulk, rather than buying each time a customer buys.
Ali Abdaal 31:08
Okay, so you're selling the stuff on a Shopify store? And how did how did things grow from that kind of 2017? onwards,
Oliur 31:13
so I realised that, hey, you know, I'm making money. And if we go back to your question, but how was I making money, I was marketing and mainly through my Instagram profile, I posted products on my Instagram profile, that have followers and stuff who were interested in buying, you know, that's how it started. With drop shipping and stuff, I realised, hey, you know, if I want to make more money, if I want to do this properly, I need to start designing my own products. So I started designing my own products in Photoshop, in sketch, just literally writing down on paper if I have to. And I would come up with other products that are like the look of put it all together in like a PDF document, send it off to a manufacturer in China. And I'd be like, Hey, can you make this? Can you make this for me? With my logo on it? Yep. It's funny, because it sounds very like half assed in a way. But it's a very common thing that most people do. But
Ali Abdaal 32:01
so you can just do that you can just design something on a napkin and send it to someone in China. And they will be like, yes, now. Our factory can make this for you. Exactly. That's pretty cool. Yeah,
Oliur 32:10
exactly. It's, I think the toughest part of it, is you do need capital, obviously, because to buy 1000 units to buy sample products, it does cost a lot of money, like a sample can cost anywhere between 100 to like $1,000, for example, because they're only making one unit. And sometimes they have to adjust the tooling, adjust the manufacturing, all that sort of stuff to just make a sample. Yeah. But then once you've made a sample, when you're happy with it, you make a bulk order, sometimes they actually take off the sample fee, which is pretty nice.
Ali Abdaal 32:40
Can anyone do this? Like is there a website that you go on where you can just like find a factory in China to make a thing for you? Like, how does it work?
Oliur 32:46
There's website, I feel like most people now who are in that sort of world called alibaba.com, where you can go to anything, find manufacturers and stuff, and you can work with them are making our custom products.
Ali Abdaal 32:58
So do you like bring them up? Or have a zoom call? how did how does it actually work? Like if I, let's say I wanted to design the perfect backpack for my everyday carry, which is the thing I want to do at some point, you know, perfectly sized for a 13 inch MacBook 11 inch iPad. That would be that'd be really cool. So what would that process look like. And I'm like, I have a vision for like the perfect backpack.
Oliur 33:18
So like I said, the first thing you need to do is come up with a sketch, come up with any features that you like, come up with anything that you'd want in the backpack, any sort of key requirements that you want. Look at other backpacks you like the look of take the best bits of them, and then mix and mash them together, almost send that off to a manufacturer, you go on Alibaba, you can put in an RFQ, which is request for quite a bit and you upload your design file or designs or whatever you tell them the measurements, the materials that you like. And then you usually have like a bunch of suppliers get back in touch with you. And then from there, you do have to spend quite a bit of time researching each supplier, seeing what other products they've made in the past, seeing if they have any products that are similar to what you've already made. Because obviously if they have made similar products, it's going to be much easier working with them and making the product that you want. Okay,
Ali Abdaal 34:09
what I was like working with them look like like on a day to day basis. Do you like go to China and talk to them? How does it how does that how does that play out? Like I literally know nothing about what it's like to fly. I'm a complete noob about it. So
Oliur 34:21
I've never been to China in my life. Okay, it's all done online. And it's all done on alibaba.com. You can even have the orders done through there. Okay, Alibaba provide, like, protection. Yeah. So say you order $10,000 worth of stock. And it doesn't meet the spec that you sent to them. say there's something off. You can get you can sometimes get your money back really depends. It can it can depend. And yeah, it's all just done through a BBs just through DMS. Pretty much yeah, you can send them if you have slack or WhatsApp, you can send them your contact details and you can talk them through there as if like they were fine. But obviously, the biggest issue with that is that there is a language barrier. Of course they do speak Chinese most And they sometimes have a rep who can speak English. But even then it's quite, it's quite broken English. And sometimes you get some people who are great because be English very well, some people are quite very good English. And again, it's just something you have to work through and figure out. Okay,
Ali Abdaal 35:15
so how long does it take from like, kind of idea for designing a product to getting a sample in your hand from a factory in China view?
Oliur 35:21
Good question. Good question. So designing a product coming up with the designer stuff can maybe take me a couple of days, because usually, these product designs just come along randomly, I'm like, hey, I want to make this product. designing it whatever, two, three days, sending it off on Alibaba, looking for a manufacturer, that can take maybe a week or two, figuring out who to make a sample with, you should make your sample and then getting a sample may can sometimes take up to 60 days, it can take a long time, two months. And then once you're happy with the sample, because maybe you're not happy with the first sample, you might have to get another one means it means another two months. Once you're happy with the sample, again, this can be an array between 60 to 120 days until you actually get the products in your hands.
Ali Abdaal 36:07
Okay. And do you ever have to worry about quality control for the samples for them for the bulk audit?
Oliur 36:11
Yeah, of course, of course. So there are different ways you can do this, you can hire a third party in China to check the products for you. Or you can just have the manufacturers send you pictures and stuff. See what the products are like. There's always risk involved, as well. Anything like this, there's always risk basis, one of the things of making products, physical products,
Ali Abdaal 36:31
what's been the biggest kind of mistakes slash downside slash like bad thing that that's happened to you as a result of trying to sell physical stuff online?
Oliur 36:39
Yeah, I've actually said this in the video before, I can't remember the exact amount that I lost, but I think it was, I can't remember, I can't remember if it was 10. I know I've lost more than $10,000 I think it was maybe $30,000, something like that, where I bought some stock. And it wasn't up to scratch. And I just couldn't get a refund. I went through the bank, I went through Alibaba. And I can sell these products. Like they worked everything. But the logo just wasn't right and just didn't look good enough. Yep. So it was right off. Right off, I literally had to throw it in the bin. Chain, because it's a waste of resources, a waste of money. It's a waste of materials, like it just was not very good for a penny even. So that's probably one of the biggest things. And thankfully, that's never happened since because I've learned
Ali Abdaal 37:28
my lesson. Okay, what what they said was,
Oliur 37:31
I think it was just a matter of being a lot more giving a lot more attention to the sample was giving a lot more attention to the bulk order, making sure they send me high resolution pictures of the bulk order. Yep, I have like maybe, maybe I get them to send me pictures of like five or six items in the bulk order, just to see what they look like. And making sure that the spec I've written is as detail as it can possibly be. Because then I can go to Alibaba and be like, Hey, you know, look, they haven't followed the spec. So they haven't made the product. Okay, well, I want to my requirements, I want my money back.
Ali Abdaal 38:06
And you can just like, say to the factory, hey, I want photos on the block right here.
Oliur 38:09
Yes, most, most factories, most good factories anyway, we'd be happy to send you photos, and then even send you photos, if you like on the inside of the factory. Yep. So you can see working conditions and things like that. Make sure you know, things are things are up to scratch and that there's no children working in. LLC, that can be a big thing when working with manufacturers. And you just got to hope, you know, unless you can visit the factory yourself. You just got to hope that there are children working there. And Alibaba usually does vet all the manufacturers that they have on their website, to make sure obviously, that they meet the rules and laws. Nice. Okay.
Ali Abdaal 38:47
So how, if you if you're open to sharing, how profitable is it to run a sort of physical products business, that way you design stuff manufactured in China and bring it back to the UK and shipped from UK. But what does it look like?
Oliur 38:58
It can really, really vary, it can really, really vary. So you know, it can be anything like maybe 5% profit margins, to like 60 70% I've seen some businesses that makes 60 70% profit margins, because maybe they already for example, like you already have an audience so that only spend money on like marketing, for example, because marketing i think is the biggest expense for any any business which is selling products, physical products. So yeah, it can vary a lot.
Ali Abdaal 39:27
Okay, so if I wanted to make the sort of work with you to design this, like perfect backpack, yeah, that would fit my everyday carry. I take the office every day, maybe in three different colours. And then we spin up a Shopify store, pitch it to the audience. What do you think will what would be your estimate of like ballpark costs? And how much do we sell this for? Like, what would that look like if we were constructing a business out of this?
Oliur 39:49
Again, it just varies so much depends on backpack materials, the spec of the backpack pockets and whatever. Okay, well, let's just say let's say you wanted
Ali Abdaal 39:57
quite a high gear, I want something sort of peak design style. flashlight, you know, high end,
Oliur 40:01
I think it will cost you anywhere between 20 to $50 per unit. Oh, okay. Say per unit.
Ali Abdaal 40:07
Yep. And then sell it for like $200 per unit.
Oliur 40:11
Exactly. I think that's a big surprise. A lot of people don't seem to have they think, Oh, you know, iPhones cost $200 $200 to make but then they sell them for $1,000. I think a lot of people don't realise that's just the material cost. Yep. There's so much cost involved, for example, your time of making the backpack logistics shipping, most likely you won't offer free shipping. Yep. Shipping is expensive. We've all been used to free ship. Yeah, Amazon, but Amazon, it cost them a lot of money. Yeah, they've got a lot of efficiency efficient things in place. That's why they can do it. But yeah, like, it's actually quite standard to see a 200 $250 backpack that only costs $50. To make. Okay, that's quite a that's quite a standard thing.
Ali Abdaal 40:49
And so $50 for the cost of the backpack. What would be the ballpark costs for the other stuff associated with selling a
Oliur 40:54
backpack? on the internet? I don't know, really, with ballpark customers? Because like shipping,
Ali Abdaal 40:58
how much? How much does shipping cost? Like when you're selling when you're sending stuff out? So
Oliur 41:01
for example, shipping, shipping a backpack, for example, to someone in the US can cost us like $30 $40?
Ali Abdaal 41:09
Bloody hell, okay. More than the actual product
Oliur 41:11
itself? Yeah. Which is very common, okay, very, very common
Ali Abdaal 41:14
thing. And then I guess if you're running ads and things, then it all adds up. But the nice thing about ads is you can really track the ROI return on investment of the ads. Yeah. So you would, you would hope that you can spend, let's say, 10,000 a month, put it on your American Express, get the points, and you will literally see a return of maybe 30,000 a month from those ads.
Oliur 41:33
30,000 is on the high end, okay. So a good ballpark is, is like around two. So for every dollar you spend, you make $2. But again, it very much depends on the product. So for example, say you're selling an electric scooter, that's $1,000, you know, the ROI on that could be around one or two or three. But because the product is a lot more expensive, spending $500 on an ad to make out $1,000, you made a $500 profit there, or $500 margin, which is obviously like, say 1020 iPhone cases or even more, like, you know, 50 iPhone cases. So yeah, like it just vary so much from product to product. Okay.
Ali Abdaal 42:17
So you started this thing? And in 2017, what are what are things looking like now with the physical products that you're that you're selling? What does the store look like?
Oliur 42:25
So in the last year, you know, with your lifestyle.com, we generated a million dollars over a million dollars, which is honestly like, for me, that's amazing. Like, that's a crazy amount of money to make. In a business. I've never had a business which is made that much money in 12 months. So yeah, like it's doing pretty well. But again, I don't focus my full time on it. Luckily, I have three other people working on that business. So they manage it for me, I have Charlie, obviously doing operations doing the shipments, customer service, the way that I have Ivan, who's doing product sourcing product management, because obviously talking to him, talking to manufacturers talking to people on WhatsApp, and Skype takes up a lot of time. And it's something that I outsource to him, he works full time. And then I have a guy in Germany is doing my advertising for me. Marketing, Facebook, Instagram advertising, stuff like that.
Ali Abdaal 43:19
Okay. That's pretty cool. And so what is your like, right now we're in 2021. What is your sort of your your empire look like? You've got, you've got the store. What else? What else do you do? You have in your,
Oliur 43:31
I've got the YouTube channel. Yep. I've got, I guess, digital products on my website, things like Lightroom presets, and wallpapers, and icons and stuff, you know, they don't make an absolute tonne of money. When I say that I make a tonne of money, and I still make quite good money around. You know, it can be I want to convey. So when I was doing the icons, for example, remember when I was 14, it really blew up. You know, I was making 10s of 1000s a month. So yeah, it can vary so much. But icons and digital works, sometimes take on client work. So consulting, you know, someone might hire me for even just half an hour. And because they want feedback on a product, or they want feedback on their business. And I can hopefully provide some value to them. And that's it right now. I
Ali Abdaal 44:19
think, yeah. Okay, what's next for you? Like how do you how do you how do you think about what you want to do next? Cuz you've got like a pretty comfortable sort of suite of products. Yeah, you could sit back and essentially live off this for the foreseeable future. So how do you think about what to do next?
Oliur 44:35
So I think at some point, I would like to sell your next door lock on. I'd like to sell it mainly because I think my interest in doing physical products has sort of shifted quite a bit. I realised that I want to do more, I feel I want to start start a software as a service business. I don't know what you're trying to dabble in some ideas. I think that's my next step. Doing software. As a service, and of course, going to YouTube, YouTube and stuff. Because I think it's always nice to have an audience that you can speak to, you can share things with.
Ali Abdaal 45:09
Yeah. Awesome. So we've talked a lot about kind of the business side of life. I wonder if we can talk about some personal stuff. And so was it a year ago? That or longer than that, that you got that first first diagnosed with with cancer?
Oliur 45:24
Oh, yeah.
Ali Abdaal 45:24
What was the story there?
Oliur 45:26
It's August 3 now. Yeah. So I was diagnosed July 7, last year. 2008.
Ali Abdaal 45:34
Yeah. As a sort of peak peak lockdown. Yeah.
Oliur 45:37
So it's funny because I had I think I've, I continue to buy this before. I had symptoms since like, April. And it was since I came back from LA, and I came back from being in LA. And I think the first symptom was just lower back pain had a lot of low back. I thought, at first, you're sitting at a computer all day, you know, we both had a computer. We're just having a bad that not sitting properly. Yeah, that's what I thought he was
Ali Abdaal 46:04
just physicians, just opposition
Oliur 46:06
slouching. But it just didn't get better. And it was a very weird sort of a campaign. Went to my doctors and stuff went to a&e and stuff. And they thought it was like kidney stones or whatever, they didn't find anything. And then he went, he went for a little while. And then July, I woke up one morning, and I just found it very difficult to breathe. And I was like, What's going on here? I thought, you know, why am I out of breath? It's like, it's like, you know, when you go for a very intense sprint, yeah, run a sprint up, and then you suddenly stop and you have to like, bend over. Take your breath. Yeah, that's what he was like on a Monday morning. Bloody hell.
Ali Abdaal 46:40
That was scary. Yeah, it was
Oliur 46:42
very scary because I was just, I was just like, I can't speak. Yeah. So an ambulance came low drama. An ambulance came pick me up, took me to the hospital. They did a bunch of tests and stuff. And the first thing they found was that I had two blood clots to pulmonary ambulance, one in each lung. I was just like, what? And they asked me how I travelled recently. I go, yes, I've been to LA. So they think, Well, part of the reason why I had the blood clots was because I was on a 12 hour flight and I didn't get up once in that fight. I didn't even go to the toilet. So blood pools in your feet doesn't go up through your body. But over time that those blood clots have obviously come up and in been introduced into my lungs. But what was also another factor in having those blood clots was the lumps in my life that I had formed the cancer. So I had 12 lumps in my lungs, 1212 lumps in my lungs, they were the biggest was around 18 millimetres in my lungs. Yeah, that was sort of just all spread around my lungs and stuff. And honestly, that was making it difficult for the blood to go through my lungs. Yeah. So I asked my doctor, my oncologist, how long do you think I've had the cancer for? And he goes, we think you might have had it for 12 months. And I was like, What? Well, that's because I had no other symptoms. Yeah. You know, because usually, I think with testicular cancer, what to expect, like you're down there becoming larger, and I was like that for me. I had a different type. And yeah, so like, July 7, I was diagnosed. I was in the hospital for like, two days, three days, okay. And then I started chemo on the last week of July. Yeah, last week of July. So within three weeks, I was on chemo, I was doing chemotherapy,
Ali Abdaal 48:29
or what does that feel like when you because you're, you're like young, you're like, you would have been like 27 at the time. And I'm imagining like, if we had a 27 year old on the ward, who's come in with shortness of breath, and we're like, oh, they've got to pulmonary embolism. Oh, and also they've got 18 sort of is 18 metastases from testicular cancer primary storage. Like in their logs. It's just absolutely mind blowing as the doctor on the other end, like what what was it like for you as the patient
Oliur 48:59
I think that was the shock. The other doctors had, like, just like, yeah, you know, Doctor seeing all that or like, what the hell? How did that happen? Honestly, at the time, I was just like, what? I was just like, is this really happening to me because I was fit and healthy. Before I got my cancer. I was actually probably in the best shape. I had ever been better shape than when I was a teenager. going to the gym four or five times a week, I was eating properly. You know, I was quite slim. I wasn't absolutely shredded or whipped. But I was just in very good shape. And that's what shocked me even more because I was like, you know, how do you even get this? Yeah, so like, the first thing I did was I researched and absolutely time I spoke to doctors I spot I looked online, I looked at all these different things. And getting testicular cancer is initially just like almost like a random generator. Like is completely random. There's no there's no things that cause it. The only thing I think people say that cause it is maybe if you've had it previously in family, but none of my family have ever had it. No one in my family has ever had that type of cancer. So yeah, like for me, I was just like, Okay. I don't even know what to do. I don't even know what's what's next. I did very much sort of take. I took the week, sort of just week by week because I knew, okay, I've got to do this week of chemo. I've got to do this, this or do that. Yeah. And I kind of just thought to myself, especially looking at all the studies of testicular cancer, seeing that is it crazy to say it's the best cancer to have described? Yeah, because it's the most curable Yeah, I think it's the only cancer that's curable as well. There are no other types of cancer that are so I was obviously quite positive in that way too. At the same time, I was like, hysterical crying and whatever, you know, because Who wouldn't? If you get if you get told you have cancer, like what? Yeah, how can this happen to me? So yeah, I'll just take it week by week pretty much
Ali Abdaal 50:55
okay. Yeah, that's just like
Ali Abdaal 50:59
yeah, I can't even begin to imagine what that what that was like for you.
Oliur 51:03
I messaged you it is yeah, I messaged you and I because I can't remember why I messaged you or what? Yeah, I can't remember why I'm actually do what I messaged you about? Because all sounds very emotional at the time. Yeah, I remember. I think I was telling you. I was just
Ali Abdaal 51:17
really angry. Yeah, yeah. We talked about this at the time. Because like, I was just like, how
Oliur 51:21
did he not get caught earlier? I think that was my biggest issue. Like because I went to a&e, I went to hospital in April, with the low back pain handling not catch it then. But yeah, it's just crazy to think about it now. That's all
Ali Abdaal 51:36
what was the experience of starting came up like,
Oliur 51:40
Oh, chemos The worst thing I can it is the worst thing to describe. For like, I don't really know how to explain it. It's like being a zombie. Okay? is like being a zombie. It's like, it's like, you have this body and you have this brain that you can't control. But you still you can still understand what's going on. But you can't control anything. Like I couldn't. I couldn't even look at a TV. I couldn't look at my phone. I couldn't look, I couldn't focus. I couldn't drive. I couldn't do anything. When I was on chemo, he was just nice. He is literally just walking like you're half dead. As the as the only way I can explain that. People obviously say chemos hell, but honestly, like it's, it's, it's worse than like, you can even think it's
Ali Abdaal 52:24
fair to say you won't want to do it again.
Oliur 52:28
Not unless I have to.
Ali Abdaal 52:29
Yeah. So how long? How long? How long were you in zombie mode for?
Oliur 52:33
So I had, I had 10 weeks of chemo. And it was in three cycles. Force. Yeah, three, three and a half cycles, sort of. So I go in for the first week, and I go for three days, eight hours a day. So I would be sitting there with a drip in me, IV or whatever you I don't know what the technical term is. For my all of my arms, I just ruin from all of it. But I'd have the machine just pumping the fluids during the hours of eight hours of the day, the second and the third week. I was just going once, once a week for around two or three hours. And then I'll repeat the cycle again, you know, eight hours a day for three days for the next cycle. And then two weeks.
Ali Abdaal 53:18
What were the conversations with the other patients like?
Oliur 53:20
So I was by far the youngest patient there. Yeah, I was by far everyone there was much older than I was. But honestly, the people who took care of me they were amazing, because I don't know how they do it day in day out. But they're the happiest people wherever they leave literally keep you happy. They literally keep you keep you positive. And all the people there as well like the because obviously I was a lot older than me 6070s 80s sort of people. And everyone was it's almost like a big family, everyone because everyone's going through the same thing. Everyone obviously has got different types of cancer. I was going through the same thing of just sitting in the chair. Yep, having chemo. And it's interesting hearing their stories, because obviously they have a lot more life experience than I do. Yeah. So there's so many interesting, old people always have the best.
Ali Abdaal 54:06
Yeah, I guess it's it's unusual to spend eight hours sitting next to a random old person talking about their lives.
Oliur 54:13
This is the other thing because my cancel was spread safe so far and was so bad. I was only one I was one of the only people there that would actually stay out. Some of the other people would come and go, Okay, so most of the time, I actually wouldn't have the same person who sat next to me. Okay, so maybe halfway through the day, there'd be someone else who comes in, okay, he's coming in for that treatment. So I met so many different people. It was It was great. It was great. It was great speaking to all these people and just socialising with them
Ali Abdaal 54:40
So what does that look like? What is the social etiquette around? someone sits next to you in the chemo chair? Is it like a bus where you're a bit on the on the underground where you're not going to make eye contact? Is it like an aeroplane? Like what how? What does it look like?
Oliur 54:55
Everyone says Hello. Hey, how's it going? And everyone the first question they asked each other Is what you here for? Okay? What's your cancer? Yeah, what's your chemo? Like, you know, what's your treatment? Like? Okay, and there are obviously the the most common question I got was How old are you? Yeah, because I was just I just learned like,
Ali Abdaal 55:11
yeah, so you would say 2720 I was 27 how would people respond to that?
Oliur 55:17
People just feel so sorry for me now Oh You poor thing. Yeah, you don't deserve this. Like, I obviously like it's really nice. It's all these people like they treat you as if like, they're your son. You're their son even you know they treat you as if you know that they need to take care of you anyway. Yeah. Which is nice. Because like you know, it's nice having all this support from all these just strangers. Yeah, people who just, we just want to see you get through it. Yeah. Which is great.
Ali Abdaal 55:45
Cuz because you don't you sort of strike me as similar to me and that I feel like you're not big on sharing your emotions and getting emotional support from other people. Generally, correct me? Oh, you're okay. So I guess there's what I see online. Yeah, I guess that's not really the persona that you
Oliur 56:02
I can understand that. Especially my YouTube channel. Yeah, I think I feel like
Ali Abdaal 56:06
You put you put across a very, like put together like,
Oliur 56:10
I think it'd be quite interesting seeing when people watch this. Yeah, because this is a lot more casual.
Ali Abdaal 56:14
Yeah, you're more smiley here than I've ever seen you on your YouTube channel. We're talking about you having cancer.
Oliur 56:22
Yeah, I think I think I definitely haven't. I'm an emotional person. But I was really lucky to have people friends around me at the time for emotional support. And like, supporting me and stuff, making sure I was okay. I had friends was like trying to visit me. Obviously at the time, I had to be very careful because COVID was going around. Yeah, and when you have chemo, your white blood cells just disappear, right? So I couldn't see anyone really, but people would call me people FaceTime me message me, they'll always ask how was it. And I remember before I actually started the chemo, I Alicia had all of my friends and family all come and visit me in like three weeks. people hadn't hadn't seen for years had come to see me. It was just nice. It was nice having that support. And it was nice, like just knowing that I can call it any of these people and be like, yeah, I need this and they would be there for me.
Ali Abdaal 57:10
What? What sort of life lessons do you learn from the old people that you were you were chatting to? At that time? if any? I feel like old people love imparting wisdom on younger people. So I imagine you would have you would have got a lot of that.
Oliur 57:22
Well, I think I was lucky in a way where most of the people that I spoke to. They were just very much just like happy go lucky. Okay, we're just like, do whatever the hell you want. Because their lives, they're like everyone says life is just too short. Like, you know, if everything is too serious, everything is too to read. Like, if you take everything too seriously, nothing is fun, in general, you know, just enjoy as much as you can. And I think I was like that anyway, luckily, I think I'm already in that sort of mindset of, Hey, you know, I'm in a very fortunate position where I get to do stuff that I enjoy already for work. I just happen to also make money with it. That's the great thing. And you know, I live comfortably and stuff and I enjoy myself I see friends or family I socialise. Like, look, I'm here with you socialising. You know, I enjoy this stuff. I enjoy. I enjoy socialising with people and hanging out with people. And I feel like that's what a lot of these older people taught me having experiences with other people and just taking things as they go pretty much. Okay. And I think that's also why we're the cancer. I'm just like, hey, I've done it. Now he's done like I've completed it was just another another section of my life. Yep. I never saw it as like, Oh my god, like, you know, I do sometimes things to myself think to myself, Oh my god, I can't believe I did that. While I was I think that was a good experience.
Ali Abdaal 58:39
Don't wanna do it again. But how do you think about the balance between live every day as if it's your last versus kind of the more I think about the long term?
Oliur 58:50
I think I think it's good to have a mix of both. I think a lot of people think are you need to have one or the other? No, no, I think it's important to have a mix of both because you don't want to for example, yeah, I know people say oh, you know, when you're young, you should just enjoy yourself, spend all your money, you know, get drunk, eat whatever you want. But you know, what, if when you're 5060 years old, and you start having health issues, what if you don't have enough money for retirement? You've got to think about both you've got to have a good balance of the two I think and I found from you know, things like being just going to the gym. I wouldn't say you know, I'm like properly in shape. But I try to I try to be and I try to eat healthy and like we were talking this morning. I don't drink coffee, really. Because I want to just be able to be 5060 years old and be like, Oh, you know, I'm still I'm still fine. I'm still going through life completely fine. I'm still fit as a fiddle. I'm still doing whatever I want to do have any other sort of health issues.
Ali Abdaal 59:47
So you don't drink either?
Oliur 59:48
No, I don't drink alcohol.
Ali Abdaal 59:49
Yeah, I guess like when, when a lot of young people hear that someone is teetotal. They think oh well. Aren't you sacrificing enjoyment of life?
Oliur 1:00:00
The amount of times where I've been to a restaurant or a bar, and I said I don't drink and the looks I've gotten, like, Oh, you must be well boring, or you must not let fun I'm thinking, like, she says a lot about you. Because it means you have to get a bit drunk or bit tipsy to have fun while you have fun as you are. Like, that's how I see it. Because I think, I think if you can't find happiness in just like, not having any sort of drugs in you. And you know, there's there's another underlying issue there.
Ali Abdaal 1:00:31
So, other than I mean, I think going going through the experience, and it sounds like the counsellor has taught you to double down on this thing of enjoy of returning on its own merit, but also think about kind of long term stuff. And he had any other kind of lessons that you've that you've learned from it that you would kind of share with other people,
Oliur 1:00:49
I think the biggest, the biggest thing I've definitely learned from cancer is not giving well, giving less of a ship carrying a lot less about what other people think or what other people say. That's why I shared the video of me showing that I have cats was I thought to myself, there are going to be some people who comment this, that and the other saying that, hey, you know, you deserve to have it, but also some trolling or whatever. Yeah, but I know there's always going to be some people who are going to benefit from it. And, you know, there have been people, other people who have reached out to me, where they're like, Hey, I'm so glad you shared your cancer story, because if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have to have discovered that I also have cancer that I've I wouldn't have known the symptoms, I wouldn't have known what it what it's like, so I've realised I just need to Yeah, like I realise I need to stop caring a lot less about what other people think and just do whatever I think is best. But I feel like you need to have a good balance there because also you don't want to come across as an asshole. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you know, you don't want to be romantic in your, your that basically you want to you want to be able to have a good balance.
Ali Abdaal 1:01:49
Okay. Just in terms of like a public health announcement. What what are the things that you would encourage people to be looking for with regards to to stetic testicular cancer slash? I'm not sure the right medicine because I know you've been through it. Like, I've got a bullet point list from med school that I barely remember. But yeah,
Oliur 1:02:07
but the thing with with cancer, and we can do in general, honestly, it affects everyone differently. So the symptoms you might have are different. I feel like I don't really want to say the symptoms on camera, because, because mainly because somebody someone could have that symptom, but they actually might not have cancer. So I would just recommend, for example, going on a actual Cancer Research website, or the NHS website, and seeing the actual information on there. Because that's where I find the information that I needed. And that's how I realise because I remember the day when I went to hospital, and I remember sitting on a bed and then telling me I had cancer. I feel like I knew before then that I had all of the symptoms, all the things I had already read about. And I had met basically the criteria, it was just a matter of having an actual doctor telling me that hey, you've got it. I think it is literally just a matter of taking care of yourself and just looking at proper official medical websites for symptoms rather than some random Joe Bloggs.
Ali Abdaal 1:03:14
How, how often do you do self examination and stuff these days?
Oliur 1:03:18
self examination?
Ali Abdaal 1:03:19
Yeah, that's clearly not often enough. I do. I do it maybe once every few months when I'm in the shower. And I remember I it's often when I just sort of I just I just think of you. And I think I should do something
Oliur 1:03:31
nice. Alice just mentioned to me. He thinks of me.
Ali Abdaal 1:03:35
As some of the time maybe, maybe once every few months.
Oliur 1:03:38
I don't know whether I should be impressed or disgusted. I mean, it's weird, because like, I should I guess I shouldn't be part of that. Because it means Yeah, I had that impact on you. Right? Yeah, I've had the impact on the way like, Hey, Mike, you know, Ali, my friend has had cancer. Maybe I should just check. Yeah, you know, which I think yeah, maybe whoever's watching this. Make sure you think of me, as weird as that sounds.
Ali Abdaal 1:04:02
So I've got a few things I wanted to ask you specific about. So you, you say quite a lot in your YouTube videos. What's to the effect of Damn, I'm a lucky Dude, I'm so grateful for the life.
Oliur 1:04:13
I am honestly very, very grateful to be in a position. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 1:04:16
How much do you feel a luck has played a role in your success.
Oliur 1:04:21
So this is a weird thing. Like, because it's not a thing that you can measure? No. But I like the idea and the phrase that people say where you make your own work, you put yourself in positions you, you, you sort of try to try to make all these different things align, to work together. And I think I think that's where maybe I've gotten a bit lucky. For example, I feel like I'm being unlucky here to be on the podcast with you to be on this video with you. because inevitably, I'll see you have a lot more subscribers. If you have too many subscribers. I have like 200,000 I have the 10th that you do. But, you know, here I am because we get Long because we're good friends who I am. And hopefully some of the people who are going to be watching this are going to also come over to my channel.
Ali Abdaal 1:05:05
Yeah, everyone's subscribed already I think
Oliur 1:05:07
definitely subscribe. Yeah. I think those sorts of things are mix of luck and a mixture of just being in the right position right place.
Ali Abdaal 1:05:20
But that's also not really luck though. That's like, sort of
Oliur 1:05:24
you see this? Yeah, has their rotation, right?
Ali Abdaal 1:05:26
Yeah, I guess the way that I that I think of it is that luck is sort of two things. Number one is like, how often do lucky events happen to you? And then secondly, what is your ability to capitalise on those lucky events? And so I think for the first one, how often did luck events happen to you? by sticking yourself on the internet you just 5000 next to the amount of lucky things that can happen to you just because more people know of you and more people are exposed to you. I've been following your videos for a long time. And so when when we first i don't know i think it was like Instagram dm or something
Oliur 1:06:00
well, no say this. This is the funny thing. I think you follow me before I even knew who you were
Ali Abdaal 1:06:05
Yeah, I've been following you for ages the vibe and the apartment setups and stuff I think my friends watch more of your videos and video of mine because they're like oh my god. Oh, you got a TV you know the LG sponsors. You should definitely get one of those.
Oliur 1:06:20
Yeah, so the first time I came across you was you actually left a comment on one of my videos. Oh, you left a comment on one of my videos. And then I went to your channel Yeah, and I just thought hey, who's this handy guy I didn't really know what and then I think you left another comment on one of my guys and I was like oh this is this guy seems like a nice guy like he's a YouTuber on the UK. And then I can't remember how we actually
Ali Abdaal 1:06:43
I don't know how it was connected. It must have been Instagram dm
Oliur 1:06:45
no no it wasn't because now cuz you don't follow me
Ali Abdaal 1:06:47
on Instagram. Yeah.
Oliur 1:06:49
I think it was Twitter.
Ali Abdaal 1:06:50
Oh, Twitter dm Yeah, that's my that was it? Yes.
Oliur 1:06:53
I think it was Yeah, I can't remember our first conversation I
Ali Abdaal 1:06:57
feel like it might have been around the cancer time. Really? Possibly. I don't know because
Ali Abdaal 1:07:01
I had a call we had a call Yeah, we did have a call and that was before was that before the kinds of stuff that was before because
Oliur 1:07:06
honestly I would have been like hey you know our icon let's have a look. I think it was very very close to the cancer stuff.
Ali Abdaal 1:07:15
Yeah, we have quite a lot of twitter twitter dams. Oh it was when you got the Tesla and I messaged you say in November 2019 saying did you get this as a business expense I've been trying to research that side of things but couldn't find much in the way of information and then weeks that we kind of got talking about your your Tesla and then six months later in May you messaged me being like enjoyed your video surprised how much you weren't surprised you haven't got yourself a Tesla yet yeah. And then we talked about Skillshare and about like sponsorships and stuff nice.
Oliur 1:07:46
Funny I think yeah
Ali Abdaal 1:07:49
yeah, so I think so kind of going back to this blog thing it was like you just expose yourself in a non weird way to like have by putting stuff on the internet. And then you capitalise on Lucky lucky breaks by just being in general a nice person and being kind of taking initiative and stuff. Is that's kind of how I how I think about it. Yeah,
Oliur 1:08:07
the thing with luck is as well as I hate it when people say for example, like you, you will me, we've built our our YouTube channel. We've built our online businesses from nothing like we've not had anyone help us do those. You haven't had any money injection,
Ali Abdaal 1:08:25
have you? No. But I had a huge unfair advantage of the whole like Cambridge thing, medicine thing. Like I was really leaning heavily on those.
Oliur 1:08:31
Because how many doctors still just do their family jobs are still doing whatever they do. You still tip that that step of putting yourself online or start or teaching other people or starting your med? Remember, I comment exactly what it's called me having like a UTI, STDs and stuff that stuff. He did all that sort of stuff. A lot of people aren't gonna bother to do that sort of stuff. And a lot. Some people will say, Oh, you You're lucky to have this. You're not because of that. No, no, no, no. Like, all of that sort of stuff came because you took that first step. Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. Because I'm sure you get a lot of messages because I get the same sort of messages. Hey, how do I start my youtube channel? Hey, how do I start my business? Hey, you know, and instead of what? You didn't ask anyone, when you say, Oh, hey, what do you think? Should I say? Yeah, I did it because I just wanted to.
Ali Abdaal 1:09:21
Yeah, I think that's, that's what that's one of the keys that I hear from from almost anyone whereby there are so few people who kind of do something and it becomes successful with a kind of logical strategic, I want to make money I want to achieve this thing in the future. Therefore, I will do steps ABC, most people that I've spoken to who are kind of traditionally successful, it's been much more about let me do this thing because it seems cool and fun and interesting right now, and at the same time, it also seems a little bit sensible because like doing heroin, it's like fun from what I've heard, but it's also kind of like we will keep that keep that one on the DL. But you know, stuff like starting a YouTube channel or starting a business, there is an element of, you know, this, this would be a sensible thing to at least try. But there's also a big element of this seems kind of cool, it seems kind of fun. And the people who can enjoy the journey are the ones who end up kind of reaching the destination. But I find that often realise that actually, it's not really about the destination, it was actually more about the journey all along. And
Oliur 1:10:19
yeah, I agree. Because you I've always seen you say that online. It's not about getting to a destination, because because once you're there, you always like I would, you know, you very much is about the journey. And I agree, I agree with that statement. Because I think to myself, hey, you know, I'm doing all this sort of stuff. But what's the actual end goal here? I don't actually know. I don't know what the end goal is. I feel like, what ends up happening is now you get a nice thing, you get a customised to that nice thing you like, okay, I want the next nicer thing, which is a very bad trap to fall into. Yeah. And I think a lot of people do that. And you have to sometimes pull yourself back and think to yourself, damn, man, I'm so lucky to have the house that I have, or have the car that I have. And that's why a lot, you know, I say, I always like to say in my videos, I'm lucky. Well, I'm in a fortunate position to have all these different things. But yeah, there are so many people who don't know some people who, who are still, you know, doing, who are still living paycheck to paycheck. But I know for me, for example, if I lost all of my work, if I lost all of my income stuff, I have enough money I have enough like savings and stuff where I could be jobless for like two or three years, and I'd be completely fine. And unfortunately, not everyone is in that same position.
Ali Abdaal 1:11:30
Do you have any kind of gratitude meditation, journaling type practice for this sort of stuff.
Oliur 1:11:35
I don't have any sort of like, I don't write anything down. Now. However, journaling, I feel like it's something I should really do. Because journaling is such a good way to see what you did on a specific day, instead of all the days becoming a blur. But there are moments like, where I'll just sit on my computer are sitting back, it can be anywhere. I'm just like, man, I'll just reflect I'll just be like, Yeah, but I'm just so lucky. I'm just so lucky to to do the things I do. Yeah, really not have many complaints. Especially when I see like other people, other friends. When I see you know, when you see new sort of like reading news online is probably not a good way. Good mental health thing. But, you know, you've learned for example, with the Black Lives Matter thing last August, I think to myself, man, like there are some people going through some really hard stuff. And here I am, like, you know, pretty easy. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 1:12:25
Just living quite comfortably, on a good time making YouTube videos.
Oliur 1:12:29
And like, I wish everyone could experience the same thing, are we I really wish everyone good.
Ali Abdaal 1:12:34
If someone was in your position as a teenager who didn't want to go to university, and they're struggling to find what to do, what would be your advice to them for whatever that's worth?
Oliur 1:12:45
And it's a really, really difficult question to answer because it varies from person to person. If I could actually go back and do you can be decided at university, I would. Because it's why I enjoy doing. So. Finding that thing you enjoy, I think is the tough part. Because all people and I think they really know what they enjoy. Yep. In our sort of day and age, you could say I sound like an old man. So but you know, you can you can literally find a Korean playing computer games, which is just absurd. When I'm sure when you're a kid, and when I was a kid, playing computer games and making money, that's the most craziest thing ever. Okay. What says Hi, I think, is really hard question to answer. I don't have an answer, I'm honest. But I think it really is just a matter of finding what you love to do, and seeing how you can monetize that thing.
Ali Abdaal 1:13:37
Yeah, the way I kind of think of this is that if you, if you can do that, then that's fantastic. Like, if you genuinely find something that you love to do, and can also monetize that, then you're, you're kind of winning, winning already. The thing I often think about is, what if like for the people who aid don't really know what they love to do, slash the thing they love to do, ie I don't know, baking or playing guitar is a probabilistically unlikely thing to actually be able to make money from, like, people are unlikely to become the next john mayer or to become the next insert Baker name here. And so in that, in that context, often, like Yeah, do you?
Ali Abdaal 1:14:17
How would you think about like, if
Ali Abdaal 1:14:19
you need someone who's in that position,
Oliur 1:14:20
somebody in that position? I think I would tell them to try everything. Yeah,
Ali Abdaal 1:14:25
it's like that double with a lot of stuff. Yeah. dabble with
Oliur 1:14:27
all sorts of like types of jobs. Because especially when you're young, you're in a very good position. I think when you're when you're when you're 1617 1819. Even I felt awful up to 25, even up to 30. You can do so much you can do so many different things. And I feel like you're most likely going to come across something that you're like, Hmm, I could see myself doing this in 1020 years. Because I think that's an important thing for me as well. Whenever I do anything, whenever I start anything, I think to myself, you know, even if this didn't make a lot of money now Could I still do it in five or 10 years? And if I can, then then I think, Okay, I'm gonna do this. Because even if it doesn't make me money for the first year or two, or even if it's not monetizable, for how long? As long as I can keep doing it, as long as I'm enjoying it, then let's see. Hi, guys.
Ali Abdaal 1:15:19
Yeah, there's a really good quote from when Marcus Brownlee was interviewed on the Y Combinator Podcast, where he said that, to be honest, the secret to success is pick something and work on it for 10 years. Like if you genuinely if you enjoy working on something for 10 years, it is almost a it's unfathomable that it wouldn't be successful in some way.
Oliur 1:15:40
I can't remember is it like 1000 hours or 10,000 hours, when you put 10,000 hours or something, you're most likely like, pretty, pretty good. Probably going to be one of the best, which makes a lot of sense, because, you know, this is like going. So like I was saying earlier, I'm a big gamer, I like playing computer games a lot. Apex Legends is one of my favourite games on now, you know, I've invested 1500 hours into playing that game, I sound pretty good. You know, for the nerds out there. My KB is like, five, my win percentage is like 28%, something ridiculous like that. But like, I think as myself, you know, if I, if I kept playing, if I kept putting more hours into that, I could probably be one of the best in the world. And with that I could naturally maybe make a joke out of maybe get into eSports and stuff. And that's, again, another great way to make money. But you just got to make that commitment. Like, like Marcus was saying, like you're saying, if you can see yourself doing it for 10 years, you do it for 10 years, you're most likely going to be one of the best in it.
Ali Abdaal 1:16:37
If you had 20 million in the bank, and you never had to worry about money ever again. What would you do?
Oliur 1:16:43
If I had 20 million in the bank? I still play games. Okay, I still play video games. Yeah. Do you mean workwise?
Ali Abdaal 1:16:50
I mean, what I okay, I love him and be more specific, like, what would your day on an ordinary day in your life look like? That is different to what and and to what extent is that different than what it is? Now?
Oliur 1:17:03
is a good question. Because I think when you hear a lot of people who've made that sort of money, their lives don't really change that much in terms of what they do, because they still keep doing what they're doing before. But if I think of it from my position, I am right now. I think to myself, I would probably still do still be doing YouTube. I probably do more photography. Yep. I probably I would probably travel a bit more. Because I could afford to go first class heavier. And I would spend a lot more time with friends and family. Because, for example, David dobrik, great example. He just goes out and buys cars for France, I would absolutely love to just ask a friend be like, Hey, what do you need, here's the money and instantly make their life better. Just because I get like something like that would be so gratifying for me. And I feel like that is literally what I tried. Okay,
Ali Abdaal 1:17:56
so I mean, apart from that last bit around kind of buying fancy cars, and a bit about flying first class everywhere. Yeah. What's stopping you from doing the rest of it? Like right now?
Oliur 1:18:06
I think I do do quite quite a bit of it already. Like gaming, for example, investing. My investing isn't investing, like playing 15 $100. Yeah, Apex over the last few years. And I do it because I can like I'm in a position where I can I can I can spend a few hours every day. It's my way of focusing on something else. Because obviously when I'm playing this game, I'm not thinking about anything else. I'm thinking about the tactics of how to play. I'm thinking about what I need to do. I like to become tunnel vision when I do something, I like to become very sort of focused on that thing. So I think I'm doing a mix of those. The travelling like he said, Yeah, I think it's just a matter of like, I don't enjoy travelling so if I can make it as comfortable as possible then I'd love to but
Ali Abdaal 1:18:53
yeah, yeah, I think like sort of the first pass is like a different level of wealth. And then that probably the next one is private jet. Which is like, even more like I'm seeing Yeah, yeah,
Oliur 1:19:06
I'm sure you've seen the craziest thing about a private jet is you don't have to go through an airport you just turn up on the strip and you go on to the JD just go like what Wow. And you can just be like to the pilot, hey, let's go here and they'll just go walk out it's absurd to me but what a position to be. You ever do get into that so
Ali Abdaal 1:19:30
amazing. I think that's a pretty solid place to end this I guess. Final question is any any final parting words that you would like to share with anyone listening?
Oliur 1:19:37
Yeah, subscribe to my channel. Now honestly, like I think like, like if we go back to the cancer thing, I think it's just a matter of having the biggest thing I've learned is not caring about what other people think and just just doing whatever you want, doing whatever is healthy, but doing whatever you want. Really just not caring about what other people think.
Ali Abdaal 1:19:59
I'm good. Mostly things. Yeah, I feel like I often have this. Well, with regards to the medicine stuff where my mom has a very strong preference that I do medicine, and typical Asian, and I have a strong preference of like medicine is vibrators not as fun as the stuff I'm doing right now. And given that I feel like I'm in this very, very privileged position where I can do what I want. When you know, full time medicine certainly won't be on that list of things. But yeah, amen. Good, Charles.
Ali Abdaal 1:20:31
Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank
Ali Abdaal 1:20:33
you for having me. Everyone subscribed earlier. And we'll see you on the next episode of whatever we end up calling this podcast. That's it for this week's episode of deep dive. Thank you so much for listening. If you like this episode, please do leave a review on Apple podcasts or iTunes. And don't forget to subscribe to our deep dive YouTube channel where you can watch the in person interview. Links to all of all your stuff will be in the video description. So thanks again for watching and always remember journey before destination. See you later.