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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
So welcome to the Courageous Coach podcast.
And for today's episode, I'm joined by Glyn Bottrell.
It's wonderful to have you here, Glyn.
Thank you so much for agreeing to come along and have a talk with me, a conversation with
me about embodiment and what that might look like and what that might mean for us in terms
of being courageous coaches, right?
So I'm really looking forward to this conversation because like all of
my conversations on the podcast.
don't know where this is going to go.
But I know because Glyn and I have had some conversations together already.
I know that we are both very curious individuals.
So I'm just going to let my curiosity guide me in this conversation.
So Glyn, let's start by just asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself.
Yeah, well, thank you for inviting me on.
mean, would just maybe before I even do that, a slight addition to what you said, let's
look at what this looks like and feels like, let's say, given that we're talking
embodiment, that feels important.
So a little bit about me.
Yeah, I'm a coach, obviously, I probably wouldn't be here, but also do facilitation, some
organization development, consultancy, mediation.
So it's things around conversation.
I guess how I got here was a couple of career changes.
The last one being the diplomat and working overseas for many years.
That then led to, suppose, my first introduction to embodiment, which was I got sick.
My body kind of gave up on me in various ways.
And then I was like, okay, where do want to take that next?
How do I want to support people in their experiences of work and life?
and I just started exploring from there.
And along that journey, I bumped into what might be called embodiment, and maybe we can
explore that a little bit more.
Yeah, wonderful.
Thank you.
And so, all right, let's just go there first of all, then, right?
What the heck do we mean?
What might you mean?
What does it mean to you?
This word embodiment, right?
What is it?
What is it for you?
I was hoping you were going to answer that.
I mean, I imagine there are different ideas around it and it's used with a sort of thing
with a with a big E and a small E in various different ways.
I think for me, it was just a an initial awareness, think, partly through that becoming
sick and what that did in me.
But then how I started to explore after that, just the idea that
I'd spent an awful lot of time in my head and everything was about thinking.
And I'm always reminded of it now when you ask that question to people, how do you feel?
And the answer is, well, I think I feel.
And I was bad at that and I still do that sometimes as well.
just being aware, actually there's more going on in me than just what's going on in my
head.
And in fact, even in my head, it's not just thinking, there's the sensation, there's
movement, there's other stuff.
going on.
What's that trying to tell me?
What's it trying to signal to me?
Because ultimately, I probably would not have got as sick as I did if I'd been paying
attention to what my body had been trying to tell me for many years before that.
So first, you got curious about that.
So it's just something about the aliveness of the body and the fact that there is wisdom
and information in that.
Then as I started to learn about it, I think maybe getting a bit more
coachy, technical about it.
It's how does that show up in your body?
So then starting to learn, okay, our experiences, our history, what we believe in, how
we're feeling, what's important to us, all of these things literally show up in the shape
of our body and how we hold ourselves and the presence that we have.
And most of the time it's unconscious.
So therefore we're just showing up with all our stuff showing, but we don't think it's
showing.
So then getting interested in, okay, if I can start to explore that a bit more for myself
and with others, so we can have a bit more, I wouldn't say control, but just a bit more
choice in, right, okay, I feel what's going on here.
Something's trying to tell me something.
What do I want to do with that?
Well, um I'm really struck by this piece because I came to...
mean, embodiment continues, as I know it does for you, but embodiment continues to be my
work, right?
Being connected to everything that's happening below my neck.
That's how I describe it, right?
Because like you, I spent all of my life up until only a few years ago in my head.
And then somebody somewhere said something about...
embodiment or you know, being connected to your body.
And then of course, I, as you know, do the did the work with Brené and one of the one of
the things that she talks about is that, you know, we have to be connected to ourselves,
we have to be embodied.
And I was like, my goodness, there's that word again, you know, what, what's this about?
And, and the thing that I think is the most curious for me is particularly in terms of
coaching is that
There's all this data and information.
Okay, I'm going to say that we below the neck that we feel.
and it's really rich data and information.
And that data and information may be of use to my client.
And so I was like, brilliant, excellent.
It's another tool.
It's another thing that I can learn in order to be able to help my clients, right?
was like, brilliant, okay, where do I go to learn these tools then of embodiment, And
then, you know, realized very quickly that this
that is not another tool or a technique even, this is about connection to self.
And that's really for me where the hard work began.
And so how is your journey with embodiment, your development with embodiment, how has that
kind of shaped you, changed you maybe?
Yeah.
mean, that brings up a whole bunch of stuff and I'll if I can sort of order them in some
way.
But I think first thing that came to me, it's a distinction I make between knowledge and
embodied wisdom.
Right.
So you can learn a tool, you can learn a model, you can learn a technique, all of those
things.
But for me, when I'm working with through the body, however you want to,
call it, it's just like something I kind of feel a sense of.
Now, then I think the tools, etc, can be useful access points, and they provide some
structure around something and I think often for a client who is not familiar with this
way of working, having something they can get their head around a little bit in order to
start that work is really important.
But ultimately, it's more way of being, which is why when
then ask him what is it and how do you do it and I don't know, you know, I have a body.
I occasionally get the head out of the way.
So how do I get here?
I'm not...
various ways, I suppose.
I think it was initially it was my experience over many years of not particularly great
workplaces or not great for me.
and just that dominance of the head that's been taught into us all.
And then everything that we see online, everything that's talked about is about the
qualifications and what's on paper and what knowledge do you know and what's your
expertise and everything is up here.
And it's exhausting.
Because then through my experiences over time, starting to realize that, actually,
Well, and learning that actually the body is generally quite ahead of the head.
Right?
All the head is doing is interpreting what's going on in the body.
But we've given this head thing such power that it knows best and it knows everything.
Therefore, we believe the story of the head rather than trusting what the body is trying
to And
And I think it's part of that being with it is starting to sense that the body can't lie,
but your head can.
The body can only tell you a truth, but it will only hint at a truth.
Maybe it doesn't come up with the full narrative, but it can't mislead you in a sense.
It's the interpretation that can mislead you.
uh
think just starting to experience that myself, starting to realize that, starting to then
see how that showed up in other clients coming from that initial point of, yeah, places
I've worked and my experiences out in the world, so much of it comes from up here.
And so much of this is valued and we are just missing so much of the rest.
So I then suppose, know, what's the structure of that?
How did I move through that over time?
So it started with illness, little bit of, and there was sort of yoga and meditation stuff
that came in initially.
Then actually a little bit of more formal embodied learning, training around coaching from
various angles.
You know, it brings in neuroscience, brings in aspects of martial arts in different ways,
different ways of looking at the body, you know.
And again, I'm not an expert in any of these things.
was just sort of picking up bits and making the shape of it.
And then more recently, my body decided to go on the next bit and started giving me these
sort of energy signals that move through my body.
So then I started exploring that through other sort of wisdom traditions.
So non-Western, non-psychological, non-head-based, closer to nature, that sort of thing.
So it's just had this progression of something new is coming up in me, something I still
don't understand in me.
So how can I experience it differently to try and, I hesitate to say make some sense of it
because then we're back up here again, but to, I suppose, integrate it into myself in some
house so then it can be useful in the world.
Yes.
And I love that idea of integrating it, right?
Because I think one of the challenges that I kind of faced is that that sort of trying to
see the head and the body is separate, almost like I can take my head off and put it over
there and now just fully connect to the wisdom of my body, right?
But the two things are kind of completely connected and integrated.
But we've been
trained and conditioned and all those things you said, right, for our heads to be the, you
know, the primary thing, the important thing, the value thing and all of those things.
I, I, one of the things I sometimes find is that in that, in that sort of meaning making
is that, okay, just connect with your body for a moment.
I sense something, something happening here.
And then it's like, what's that about?
What does that mean?
So
even in that sort of scenario, my brain is there going, my thinking brain is going, right,
okay, let's make sense of this.
And so there's something about the embodiment work for me that isn't um like an unexpected
benefit of doing that work for me has been that it is stretching my capacity to sit with
not knowing.
which I think is such an important thing for coaches, right?
Because we sit with that discomfort and uncertainty all the time.
And our brains want to take over because they want to know and it wants certainty.
So let me try and work this out.
So it's really helped me to let go of that.
I need to know actually, oh, that's interesting.
It's just interesting, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I'd extend that a little bit, absolutely around the uncertainty of not knowing, but also
just being with sensation and emotion.
Mmm.
right?
Because why have we ended up being so dominant in the head?
How have we got there?
Or what's all that about?
I don't know the full history of that by any means.
a big part of it is we don't pay attention to the signals that are going on down below.
And, you know, another aspect of the work that I'm moving more and more into, which links
more to my, suppose, organization work and conflict work is around the role of
what you might call trauma, I know how does experience show up in us as well.
Right.
And we don't want to experience the stuff that we consider to be unpleasant or not nice or
bad, all those things.
So it keeps getting shoved down into the body.
The body just keeps storing it up and then it starts to come out in weird stuff
individually, collectively, et cetera, over time.
So also our capacity to just
be with.
I'm feeling something.
I don't need to know what it is.
I don't need to name it necessarily.
In fact, know, often the naming the sensation, the experience of it, rather than trying to
name what you think that means, you know, or am I sad?
Am I happy?
Whatever?
No, don't even go that far.
Just, I'm just having an experience in me.
Something is moving.
Something is alive.
Mmm.
liveness wants to kind of provoking me into into taking a look paying attention to it.
Because then it can breathe and then it can, can integrate can do what it wants to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And one of the things that I talk a lot about in in in kind of the courageous coach work
is around this idea that our bodies are our early warning indicators.
And particularly when we're talking about emotion.
And we will often our bodies know that we are experiencing an emotion if you like before
we've named it recognized it.
analyzed it or whatever in our heads.
And so there's something for me about, you know, when we're in, when we're, when we're
about to do something brave, lots of things will come up usually in our heads to say,
don't do that, it's not safe, you know, let's armor up, protect myself, you know, don't do
that.
And as you said, suppress that emotion, push it down.
you know, or maybe a sensation, ignore it, don't pay attention to it, you know, stay safe.
And, but that, that tingling, I mean, I'm doing tingling could be anything, right, but
that sort of early warning indicator is actually so important for us, because it allows us
to sit with as you say, but to notice it and say, okay, that, know, that doesn't
necessarily mean that I not going to do what I'm that I'm
think I'm going to I'm not going to not be brave or so those early warning indicators are
so important before we even get to Oh, that's anger or that's rage or that's grief or
whatever the label is right before we even get to that.
And so that gets me really curious about how we begin to notice the different signals that
our bodies are giving us right?
Okay, that's a that's a
tingling in my fingers, that's heat in my legs.
uh Because there's so much granularity in our bodies.
And so I'm really curious about that, how you kind of...
Because initially, yes, let's sit with it, but also begin to notice differences so that
early warning indicator becomes fine-tuned.
I think that's what I'm trying to say.
Yeah, okay.
Let me see what can go with that.
oh I'm totally with you on the early warning signals, right?
In various ways, because I said earlier, yes, the body is trying to tell us something, the
head will then just interpret that and start turning into a story.
And because of the way our brains work, it will generally try and turn it into a story
that we already recognize because it like shortcuts.
So
It will start making links which may or may not be there, which will then create a story
of fear or whatever it might be.
Similarly, our body is always reading the room for safety.
Well, a bit more than safety sometimes, but let's go with safety for now.
So therefore it's also reading the people we're interacting with really quickly, way ahead
of our brains.
So it will start giving us those signals.
So what then that goes back to what I said earlier, it provides an opportunity for choice.
Right?
I'm starting to notice that tingling is happening, as I can start to build up that
discernment.
So I recognize that tingling comes up when I'm feeling a bit unsafe in relation to people
in positions of authority, for example.
Right?
Okay.
What do I normally do when that happens, which I've been doing for the last 30 years,
which is unconscious, is I run away and hide or I get angry and start shouting at people
or whatever it is.
Instead, do I want to do this differently?
Because for me, the choice is always about how do I stay in connection?
Because ultimately, the safety is in the connection.
If you break the connection, the chance of getting the safety you want, are even slimmer.
Gone, yeah.
So even if you don't feel safe or don't like the person or whatever it might be initially
in the body, right?
What choice can I make to try and maintain or create connection here?
Now, and it's 50-50, it's not all on us, but at least you're creating a different
potential than that.
So then back to your question, which I think was around, how do you start to
differentiate?
Yeah.
Well, I think there's a step before that.
em which is often the case, which is, do you even know you feel anything?
So before you even start to get granular with it, or is it this or that?
It's like, is there anything?
Right?
Then so this is the essence of it really, it's down to practice.
So what is the sort of practice that works for this individual, because it's gonna be
different for everybody, that they can spend a few minutes in each day?
to just start to notice, ah, I'm feeling something.
And often the access point that it doesn't have to be an internal early warning signal.
It's just, I'm sat on a chair.
Oh, look, there's contact with the backs of my legs.
That feels like something.
There's an external and an internal feel to that.
Then you can start to build that up into the, okay, there's movement in the body.
There's a great access point for that, which is just the breath, right?
There's the passage of breath, there's the rising and falling of the chest, it brings
movement, it brings sensation.
So you don't even have to start with the sort of self generated, more emotional connected
stuff.
Then the other part of the granularity and the discernment is not just the sensation for
me, it's also the language because they're connected.
So we also, most of us have a pretty limited emotional vocabulary.
We put a whole bunch of stuff in several large buckets.
So let's take angry for example, right?
It could be frustrated.
It could be disappointed.
could be a hundred other things.
Yep.
So alongside the starting to notice the sensation, then starting to notice, actually,
where is that sensation?
Because sometimes we sort of have a sense that it's all over us to an extent.
it's like, actually, that's kind of down my left side more.
And okay, now that's a bit warmer here than it is here.
So he's slowly bringing it down.
And at the same time, okay, what I've called it, what I've said is angry before.
No, maybe it's not angry.
maybe it's slightly to left of angry, or then maybe it's starting to the left of that.
You're starting to really get a sense of the subtleties of both sensation and language.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love I mean, we talk about emotional literacy, a lot, right, that whole kind of,
you know, most of us can name three emotions, mad, sad and glad.
And, know, and there's a there's a whole world and wealth of them out there.
And, and, and I think that when I talk about expanding your emotional literacy, again, we
get to the, okay, well, how many words can I learn?
in order to, know, how many, how many words can I put into my dictionary and in my head?
And, and actually for me, that, that granularity of, of sensation is really where I've
started to notice the difference between, okay, I would say, I would think I am angry, but
actually my body is when I, when I take the time to slow down and check in is actually
kind of saying, this is disappointment.
this is this is discipline, this isn't this isn't right, you know, so I love that idea of
that granularity piece, particularly around linking, or using the wisdom, the information
in your body to be really much more Yeah, literate, emotionally, right?
Because I think that's super important.
And so I'm kind of
One of the questions I get asked a lot, I've actually I've come across this with my own
clients as well.
So I'm curious about your kind of client experience because um one of the things that
I've, I will sometimes do not with all clients and not just because, but if something
shows up in my body, I said, you know, sensation, you know, I will offer it to my client,
right.
And, and, and I think what's super important is that
What I've had to learn to do though is to not then put my meaning on it, my
interpretation.
So I'm sensing a tightening in my stomach.
That's it.
I don't, you know, I don't know what it is.
It's not the point, right?
And so I find that can be really helpful for clients, but I also, I'm always aware that
some clients I work, and I'm guessing this is the same for every coach, right?
Some clients I work with are,
pretty well connected to their bodies pretty well, you know, and they can kind of think
they can think in that way.
No, no, no.
They can, you know, you know what I'm saying, you know, I'm saying, but then of course,
there are also I have worked with clients where there's kind of a resistance to that.
And I'm always curious about that resistance.
I just wonder what your experiences because this is clearly I get the sense this is part
of who you are, right?
This is your, this is Glenn, this is how you show up in the world.
So how does that
of translate into client work for you.
I mean, it's, it's a bit of a spectrum, I guess, because every client's different, the
contexts are different.
So I'll always be working with the body in some way or other.
With most clients that does involve, I deliberately start with a grounding in the body.
We, know, the first few minutes before we even get into talking about anything, but that
doesn't work for everybody.
So some people.
don't do that with as well.
Well, I've tried it, but it doesn't quite fit for them or whatever.
um So then, yeah, it will be through the course of a conversation.
I might be picking up something or noticing something in their shape or whatever.
And for me, it's really about the the language of that sort of appropriate to that person.
Because if you go off, you know, a too, a bit too weird and woo woo with it.
they'll be like, are you talking about and walk out the room, right?
Whereas if you can just do it in a very sort of matter of fact way in those cases, just
like, you know, I noticed just now you did this.
And I always offer, may or may not mean anything, you know, unlike you, I'm like, I'm
noticing right now, this is coming up for me.
I will sometimes offer an interpretation.
I'll be there.
And to me, that feels like jealousy or hunger or whatever it might be.
ah With always the offer is, know, and that may not mean anything to you, but it's just
like, but it's often a sort of, if I drop that in,
it can then bring attention to the client that, oh yeah, there is something there at the
moment.
Or they might go, no, no, it's not there.
I say, fine, we'll move on, right?
So it's, because sometimes I can just be hungry.
Yes!
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
you know, it's, really judging the moment I try and bring it in, you know, then with the
clients that are really far more interested in it, then we'll get into, you know, getting
up and moving around and really exploring what's in the body and exploring imagery that
goes with that.
And there's this whole bunch of ways you can take it, but at simplest level with all
clients, there will be some degree of noticing what's in the
noticing what is in their shape, and maybe how that is shaping their voice as well.
And the other bit, I suppose, is how it shows up.
It's in, in that noticing what's in me, that's not just noticing, okay, what might I be
reflecting that's in them?
It's also, what's this bringing up in me?
And then what do I need to do with that?
Is that appropriate to bring to the conversation?
Or is that actually for me to deal with later?
Whatever.
And a part of that is how do I stay grounded and regulated myself so that I'm offering
that space to the client?
Because ultimately we're back to safety and staying in relationship again.
Right.
So how do I keep myself open to connection so that whatever is coming up, whether we're
talking about it, experiencing it in embodied language and experience, or just in good old
fashioned head words, doesn't matter.
Because if I'm offering that to whoever I'm interacting with, they will be having an
embodied experience, whether they have the language for it, whether they have the
awareness of it, kind of doesn't matter.
What I do know, I mean, I've seen, I've been talking about is I have one particular client
in mind, right?
Who, and I'm not going to name any names or anything, of course, but just I've been
thinking through the journey with that client.
And I know with them that it's
there have been moments of in what is quite a hard nosed business conversation most of the
time and it's, I've got these things to look at and these things to do and I've got this
problem and can we look at this?
There have been moments of real vulnerability or just stopping and going, ooh, yeah.
And I know that's because of what I'm offering in the safety of the space.
we'd never go to the fluffiness of that language and talk about it in that way.
know there is in that moment, a subtle shift in the conversation, which wouldn't happen if
I was doing it all through this bit.
absolutely.
I'm really struck by something because I think that I mean, what you're what you've just
described in very practical terms there in terms of what you know what you're what you're
doing and how you're showing up in your coaching that for me is is one of the really key
elements of courageous coaching, right, the ability to share something off yourself, I'm
noticing I'm sensing or whatever, to share that in a way that is it's offered.
you're unattached to it, it's not about being right, you know, all of those things, but
having the courage to offer that is, is, it is absolutely a very vulnerable thing for a
coach to do, right.
So, and I think, because the reason I believe courage and coaching is so important is
because with courage comes vulnerability and such a human thing, now we're into this
connection.
piece, right?
I connect with you because you're a fellow human being, not because you're my coach,
right?
Because not because your job title.
So how do we create that human connection?
And I think that sharing of ourselves is a really important part of that.
But something you said was really got me thinking because one of the questions that I
always get then is, yeah, I know, but this coach, particularly with, you know, with new
coaches, you know, novice coaches, they'll say, yeah, but you know, I was
told, you know, trained, it's not about me, it's about them.
And so how do I know if it's my stuff or their stuff, and whether I should and shouldn't
and you know, because they're wrapped in the rules, right, that they've been told to
follow.
And you said something really interesting, which I think I'd love to delve into a bit more
is this idea of remaining grounded, and present and connected to self and other, right?
And so, I mean, there are lots and lots of grounded, grounding exercises and ways to stay
present.
Totally get that.
We could, you know, go and get a book on it, I expect.
But I'm wondering for you, what's your practice of grounding and, you know, remaining
present with your clients when you're doing this work?
Yeah, I mean, it goes back to what I said earlier about practice, so that over time, it
becomes something you can access more quickly and easily.
And then I was going to pick up on something I said earlier, actually, when we were
talking about eh sitting with the uncertainty and sitting with the not knowing, know,
often the responses to that, slightly frustration me, well, I haven't got time for that.
Well,
that's part of the problem, but I appreciate you have time for that.
So to correct myself slightly on that is it doesn't mean a lot of time.
It's basically giving it a moment.
And it's the same with the centering and the grounding.
Initially, if it's completely unfamiliar, yes, you need to give it a bit of dedicated time
and space, but ultimately it needs to be something you can access mid conversation without
anybody else noticing that's what you're doing.
So you don't have to go off and meditate for 15 minutes.
That also helps, but often not the time for that.
So for me, it's as simple as feet on the ground, bum in the chair, back in the chair,
breathing.
And I'm so glad you said that because I'm like, I think that there's a Yeah, there's a
misconception that this is more complex than it is.
um Now, I absolutely agree with the practice thing.
This is not something you can just hope is going to switch on when you get into your
coaching mode, right?
This is is a lot.
This is a way of being not not just working, right?
And but
I have been the thing that has surprised me the most I think about kind of learning and
embracing this is that it can be like you say, meditation, exercise and mindfulness thing.
can be, you but it can also be I'm going to before a coaching session, because I all of my
works online is sit out in my garden for five minutes and just breathe.
Nothing else, just breathe.
It's important for me to be outside.
I've learned that.
That's an important part of it for me.
But yeah, just breathe.
Just breathe, like properly breathe.
Right.
And I say that because I'm an up here breather, um up in the top of my chest.
And then I wonder why I get breathy.
So lovely, calming, deep breaths.
It's calm and stillness for me, I think.
yeah, I'm so, it's almost like I want people to know who are listening that this is not
ours.
of time that you know but you do have to practice and not just when you're coaching or in
the five minutes before you're coaching right.
I mean, this is the thing with, you know, I've been talking to clients about this, they're
having the same experiences.
And I think it's all of the things you just mentioned, right?
It's because there's the question of resourcing.
So what resources us?
Okay, being outside, being in nature, bit of quiet time, whatever it is for us, doing
that.
It's also then doing deliberate practice, which could be yoga, Qigong.
whatever it might be, or meditation practice, all of these things, these all help build up
the capacity for this.
So then in the moment, your body has a memory of how we can step into that.
And then it's that idea of, right, the most important time to practice is when you don't
need to.
That's when you've got time to practice.
Because if it comes to the crisis moment, when as coach or as client or in a
business environment, or whatever it is, if you're in that moment where you're starting to
get up here, you're starting to get agitated, old patterns are starting to come through.
That's not the time you're to be practicing.
That's the time you're going to be benefiting from your practice.
the, the, the feet on the floor, bum in the chair stuff is just, okay, that's just
reminding me of the stuff I spend my time doing when I've got time to do it.
And my body can remember what that looks like.
I said, the other bit is also, as I was thinking about in the coaching moment, it's also
just paying attention to the narratives as well.
Right.
So it's what you were saying, is, am I being in service of myself?
Is this about me or is this about them?
I was just starting to notice that.
And for me, it is a sort of physical sensation of if that's not the case, I'm going to be
feeling more down in the belly, like a nice stillness, or I'm going to be feeling really
fizzy in my head.
you
I'm feeling fizzy in my head, it's probably more about me.
And then I'll be starting to notice, I'll be starting to get anxious about, am I asking
clever questions here?
Am I helping this client the right way?
All that stuff will start to come in.
Those are all the signs to me that oh the balance has switched.
So again, how do I pull myself back to dropping the energy out of here?
Dropping that fizzing down.
Okay.
Mmm.
where I need to be.
Yeah.
And of course, that's, that's making me think about our reflective practice as well now,
because I'm thinking about the kind of perhaps slightly more head reflective practice, you
know, what went well in that session?
What didn't go so well?
What will you do differently next time?
Right?
I mean, the classic kind of head reflective practice.
But that that sense of, oh, okay, what was happening in my body when
that, you know, when that happened for me, when I noticed that and the fizziness you
mentioned versus the, you know, it's really kind of down in my belly and calm.
And that my sense is, I don't know if this is this is true for you or not.
But my sense is, is that that comes from your reflect being able to reflect and note,
that's curious.
There's a difference.
There's a difference.
Huh?
What does that mean?
What might that mean for my practice?
I get all excited because I'm like, Oh, that's when it's such
so powerful reflective practice.
Because now you have that granularity between is it about my client or is it about me?
don't need I don't need my brain to tell me that.
My body will tell me that right?
can trust my body.
oh
And I think there's also something just that reflective practice, you know, that
being able to do that while it's Because for me, if I'm reflecting afterwards, then
there's a great chance that the head will do its work of creating a really good story
around what actually happened there and what I understand about that.
Within the moment, it's just, okay, this is what's happening.
Because then it's a choice again.
Okay, I'm going back into old habits here.
Is that serving the client I'm with right now?
Mm, mm.
who I want to make a different choice.
And then it's just this constant calibration in relation to the experience you're having,
rather than, oh, here's what I thought about what I did in the last hour.
And here's what I'm going to tell myself, what I'm going to do differently next time,
which of course, by the I get next time, I've probably forgotten that's what I'm going to
do anyway.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, totally.
And also the client, even if it's the same client, they're in a different space with a
different topic.
so it's, you know, so yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, that kind of, I think I'm trying to like, I feel like that's kind like the
reflection in action bit rather than the reflection after action, right.
And there's a skill to that too, for sure, the ability to do that.
But yeah, there's just, there's so much
I think this is why for me, that, you know, being connected to self and that for me is
what embodiment is, connection to my whole self, is such an important part of being
courageous as a coach because it feeds into all of the elements of what we need to do in
order to be courageous, right?
To be vulnerable, to live into our values, to, you know, to trust ourselves.
not just up here, but to trust what our body is telling us as well.
And what that might mean, what that might mean if we share it with the client.
You know, there's so many elements of this that are so important.
And I think the thing that I've learned as well, and this is a trusting trust thing,
actually, I think this comes back to trust, because one of the things I think I'm doing is
I'm learning to trust what I'm sensing in my body is I'm just learning to trust it.
right?
And go with it, whatever that is, I'm going to go with it.
And it's that bit has taken me quite a long time to get to to kind of be able to trust it.
And it's still a work in progress for sure.
And one of the wonderful examples I had of this was a workshop I did ages ago, a little
while ago now, and with the with
kind like a masterclass on you working with the body and coaching that kind of thing.
You know, when we were talking about um energy and things like that, and I said, Well, you
know, I'm not I'm not really very playful.
I'd love to be more playful, but I'm just not playful at all.
Really didn't, you know, got all this story all this, you know, I'm not playful.
And I'm not this and all but I am this and all of that kind of stuff.
And
And then the person, the individual who's running the workshop, they played some music and
they played some music that was playful, right?
And before I could think, I don't know, this is playful music or whatever, or I should
play because this is playful music, my body was moving.
And I was like, whoa, okay.
So here I've got this story that I'm not playful.
I can't be playful.
It's not my thing.
I'm grown up, I'm serious.
ah My body knows how to play and it is ready to play.
And so I love this idea that the body knows if we can tune in and listen, and for me it's
about slowing down long enough to tune in and listen, there's just such wealth of wisdom
in there.
It's just, oh
and yeah, if you look at it from.
various other traditions, this basis of my acupuncture or Qigong or something like that.
It's all about the flow of energy through the body and the of life through the body and
life wants to flow through the body.
It doesn't want to be blocked, it wants to keep moving.
So that will come through in various forms of movement.
Now, they might be dancing, they might be big expressive movements, or it might just be an
internal movement.
but it's the head is really good for some reason, at blocking that flow.
And then it creates the stories which create the shape of the body, which blocks that flow
as well.
And then we're not being ourselves when we're being a version of ourselves, but we're not
allowing that full life flow through us because that's all it wants to do.
Yeah.
And that's what that then that then brings me back to presence and connection, because I'm
like to be in connection.
We want that flow right from one to the other, not just us right flows between us.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm
let's say again, it can't not flow between us in the same way that we can't not feel below
the head.
It's happening.
It's whether we are paying attention to it and encouraging that or whether we are thinking
that's what's not happening, which therefore creates a disturbance in that flow.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, that's a super point, I think, to end on, because I'm watching the time and
thinking, my goodness, Glyn, I could talk to you all day about this.
And I already feel like there's another conversation that needs to happen around this idea
of the shape, right?
I'm fascinated by this idea of the shape.
And yeah, so there's the, there's a whole thing there, but I'm not going to go there
today, because we'll be here in three hours time.
But I loved our conversation.
Thank you for sharing.
practically what this is for you, right?
And yeah, and I'm really hoping in a way that, you know, our listeners are kind of going,
oh, okay, I'm sort of getting this a bit now, because it's so important and so powerful.
I'm so excited by the thought of being able to really connect more for me in my own
development with this because not just for coaching, just for my life, right?
exactly.
And I think that's what you know, maybe to also just help people listening with that a
little bit more just to, you know, confess from my side, right?
Talking about all this, I'm on and off the horse all the time.
Right?
I mean, I have my old shapes, my old habits, these things that come up, these things I
trip over, my head still gets too busy.
I don't allow myself to be grounded.
I don't do the practice.
All this stuff still happens.
Yeah.
but I know that when I do practice it or I do allow myself to experience it, life's a hell
of lot easier.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that because we're all human, imperfect and messy.
And none of us have got it all sorted out, right?
None of us.
Brilliant.
Glyn, thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
Take care.
Okay, bye now.