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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp: Hello. How are you?
Taina Brown: Hello, round two.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, now you're letting people in behind the curtain. So we're recording two episodes today. We're recording two episodes today, even though this one is coming out much after the other one did, which is fine. So if you go and you can check out our outfits and you'll be able to figure out which other episode we recorded. If you're that kind of sleuth on YouTube. But today we're talking about the holiday that is on everyone's mind as this is coming out, because it is going to come out. Let's see the 25th, which is three days before Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, American Thanksgiving. Just for every like we may have some Canadian or other listeners, just so you know, we know that not the whole world celebrates American Thanksgiving, but we are in America. And here everyone is celebrating the American holiday Thanksgiving, which has not always been a national holiday, but is now everyone's off work for it. Like it's one of the biggies, one of the American Thanksgiving. I think New Year's, Christmas Day and Thanksgiving Day are pretty, and maybe, we know those are pretty much the three real biggies that almost everything in America shuts down. There are still those service workers who have to be out there at certain places, gas stations, pharmacies, but for the bulk of us we're off. So we thought we'd talk about it because if you want to talk about messy ass holidays, this one's probably one of the messiest. We've got the 4th of July, that's messy. But I honestly think this one is like the mother of all messy holidays because it is really rooted in the founding of this messy ass country. Thanksgiving, what are your thoughts? Do you celebrate? Do you get together with family? what, cause I'll, I mean, here, I'll quickly share my, we all get together. I have family. It is actually one of my favorite holidays and I use that loosely to say not the holiday itself, but the gathering of family the time of year I love autumn. I love fall I love it here in Missouri the weather at Thanksgiving still really decent like it hasn't gotten really cold Thanks climate change. It's even less so the weather's nice The family being together, although I'm an introvert so I could do without that part to be honest But and I love I love food great comfort food time off I used to like football more than I do now. I've been trying to ethically back out of football a bit, but there's football on. Like it's just been a holiday that I've always really enjoyed. There's not gift giving, which I don't love about like Christmas. So all of the stuff about the holiday itself, I don't love. The ways that Americans tend to celebrate has been enjoyable for me. So we do get together. We do celebrate. I do wear a shirt that says we're all on stolen land just as my form of protest. And yet I still celebrate. So how about you? What does your Thanksgiving look like?
Taina Brown: So Thanksgiving. Well, first I want to say, I want us to recognize that for Indigenous folks, it's their day of mourning because of what it represents. And so for those of us who are not Indigenous to these lands, we obviously have a different, more complicated relationship. Or not more complicated, but a different type of complicated relationship with this day. I think, know, growing up, would say in school, you're taught, you know, Thanksgiving was when the pilgrims and the quote unquote Indians got together and gave thanks and celebrated and joined forces so they wouldn't starve, you know, kind of thing.
Becky Mollenkamp: They made this wonderful feast together. was like, yeah, it's really billed as this beautiful coming together as one. There's no mention of like, hey, we stole your land. Just like, hey, why can't we all just get along on this land?
Taina Brown: And so now as an adult, I feel very differently about it. I do like the aspect of gathering, right? I love gathering with my people. And I love cooking for people. So that's actually my favorite part about the holiday is planning the meal and figuring out the recipes and making the spreadsheet and figuring out what can go in the oven together and at what time I need to make everything. so we usually do, so my wife's family is in Vegas and then my family's in Florida. So we usually do Thanksgiving in Vegas and then Christmas in Florida. And so the past couple of years though, haven't really been, well, my wife went to Vegas, I think last year and the year before by herself, because first there was COVID so we didn't go anywhere. And then after that it was just too expensive for both of us to travel but this year we are both going to Vegas for the holiday and we're driving because of the dogs. I love my dogs, but they complicate all kinds of travel activities, but I think you know, it's so complicated. Some of my, as an adult, of my favorite Thanksgiving moments have been friendsgiving dinners.
Becky Mollenkamp: Those are fun.
Taina Brown: Yeah, because I feel like there's less pressure. There's less tension.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I mean, family is always tough, right? Family's tough.
Taina Brown: There's so much tension whenever we're with family and so, and I mean, I love our families. That's not to say I don't love our families, but I think, like, at Friendsgiving, we can talk about how it's a day of mourning for Indigenous folks. With family, that gets that conversation, or the ability to have that conversation gets a little bit more complicated. And so I think it's just an interesting time, because it's like, where do you... And each year is different, I think. I'm not sure. And what I mean by that is having these kinds of conversations with family members, sometimes it progressively gets better, sometimes it progressively gets worse, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: I fully feel like I feel like it can be very influenced by politics to be honest right during a amped up election season I feel like the last thing I want to do is even broach the subject cuz it's just like you're exhausted of these kind of conversations anyway and when you are the. Lone vocal voice or maybe one of only a few people who actually give a shit in a room and you're having to have those conversations and so many times with your family at some point, like you also deserve a break from that. Not that it should like excuse yourself from ever having these conversations, but it does get really exhausting. And so when you're already in an election season, having these conversations all the time, it's like, so I find during election years, more, it tends to be more of a challenge to try and talk about.
Taina Brown: And I think also like you kind of have to, it's not that you shouldn't have those conversations, but like when should you have those conversations, right? Will it be better to have that conversation not on Thanksgiving versus having it on Thanksgiving when everyone's expectations are like all across the board, right? And so I think when it comes to holidays, and Thanksgiving in particular, you really have to just kind of like pick and choose your battles, for lack of a better term, when it comes to family who might be more conservative or who might not understand the context of the day. know President Biden recently issued an apology for the schools.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right, indigenous folks that were forced into, taken from their families and forced into schools. That has finally happened after hundreds of years. Hey, progress, progress. Moves at a record slow pace, but it's something.
Taina Brown: Yeah, it's something, but I don't know if this is just the cynical side of me or just the side of me that understands also the context and the reality. I didn't just fall off the coconut tree, y'all. I understand that the election is also the day that he issued the apology just a couple of weeks away and that some of the folks in the Democratic Party are not happy with how things are going. And so I understand that political strategy is a thing and that this, while the intent may or may not really be there, this is also part of the political strategy, right? To like not alienate a voter base. so, and also an apology, like just give the fucking land back.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I don't mean that in a, but like, because I hear you and we are so deep into this colonial experiment here. How would that even work? I think at this point, like I love that. I think we should give back more land. There is land I think that could be given back. Resettlement seems…it's very challenging, right? So I don't know, I don't know. I think reparations on a very large scale are most certainly in order. I think true autonomy, because I don't think there have been, there's been a lot of ways and continues to be challenges around true autonomy for indigenous folks on their land that continues to be challenged and stripped away. think true autonomy needs to be really important. think reparations needs to be really important. I would even be for some amount of resettlement to give back more lands, but it is challenging. It's not as if we can just say, okay, well, 300 million people, well, the, you know, however many. And at this point, I don't even know what is the indigenous population in the U.S. It's pretty small at this point, I think. Like, how do we, how do we say 300 million people need to go find homes and is Europe going to be like, sure, come on over? So I feel you. I feel you on that. But I just want to be really realistic for also because I think this is something that think has sometimes come up. This is going a little off of track of where I want to, but I still think it's important because I think so much in the liberation movement, this stuff does come up where you hear people say things like that, like give the land back. And I fully feel the sentiment and fully like, yes, but the and is the messy part is how would that actually work? Right? Like, what does it actually look like in practice? And I don't know if that's... We are so hundreds and hundreds, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years deep into colonialism that the idea of undoing that, it's like trying to the toothpaste back in the tube. I don't know that it's possible. just legit... Like, logistically, how is it even possible? So what is possible? And I feel like that's where we have to get really clear about what is possible. And I think clearly reparations are possible. think clearly more autonomy, like true autonomy on Native American land, on reservations or elsewhere is definitely possible. I think giving back some amount of national, like federal land is certainly possible, right? So there's definitely things that are possible. And I think those are the conversations that I wish I saw more of at this time of year, right? I think all of the we haven't even gotten into it yet, but Black Friday and consumerism that is attached now because yay, capitalism, no matter what, right? That's going to happen. So Thanksgiving has not only just been a lie about what the holiday is and how it started, and we continue to perpetuate that lie. It's not just that. And it's not just this time for like thanks and gratefulness and gratitude and family and all of those things, which is lovely sentiment. And I do participate in that to some degree but pretending that's what the day is about, right? But it's also now a totally capitalist in like, how can we make money off of these people while they're off work? And so like we have all of that, that is what's the common discussion at this time of year. And wouldn't it be so lovely if instead of the Macy's Day parade and all that stuff and the Black Friday sales and the like, here's what you should be making with your family or in addition to at least. On the Today Show, they were having discussions about reparations for Indigenous folks or federal lands. Instead of, can we frack on federal lands? Can we take federal lands for drilling? How about, could we give those federal lands to Native populations? Those kinds of discussions, I feel like would be at least a step towards changing what this holiday looks like for those with so much privilege and who have stolen the land. Because instead what's happening is we're like, you know, I think there has been some amount of writing history books, not writing W, but writing, like correcting history books for children to learn more of the truth of what Thanksgiving is actually about, like what the origins of this nation really are, the brutal history of America. And we're living in a political climate where there's fights to try and get rid of all of that. saw a story just recently about a book in Texas, of course. I shouldn't say that because I think I shouldn't say of course, because think it was 90 % sure it was Texas. I can look it up real quick when you talk. a book, I feel like it was Texas, might have been Oklahoma, but I it was Texas, where it was declassified. It was a story, a true story of an Indigenous person. And it was like historical, historical retelling or historical telling of something from an indigenous population that was recategorized as fiction, even though it was not, it was nonfiction, it was recategorized as fiction. And they did finally lose a court case and had to change that. But that's the kind of stuff we're up against.
Taina Brown: I mean, I get the question, like how it's definitely complicated and there's a lot of layers to it, but I don't think that. What am I trying to say here? Well, one, think for people like me and you, we have to really do our research to understand what the land back movement is all about. Like, I think we have a very limited perspective about what actually is the land back movement, right? And so because we're not indigenous to these lands and we're not in it, we're not in that movement, right? What I know about the land back movement is what I see other people share about it. And so, but I think focusing on the idea that like well, it would be hard to give all the land back because we're so deeply entrenched into this colonial project is a part of the colonial project like like it's We have to decolonize our minds about what it means to give the land back, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes, because as you're saying that I just want to because I'm fully feeling that and immediately now I'm like, I, I'm being very literal when I think really what you're like, what I'm hearing immediately, my brain opens up to it's about power.
Taina Brown: Yes, it's about power. It's about stewardship of the land. It's about protecting the lands, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: Who's making decisions exactly? Yeah. And that I absolutely am like here for it. So yes.
Taina Brown: I mean, obviously the land back movement, at least my assumption is that it's not a metaphorical movement. Like they literally also do mean the actual land, like national parks and things like that, that are also in a precarious situation because when Donald Trump was president, like he wanted to sell all that land, right, to developers. So if that happens, then there's absolutely no way to give that land back without doing just a reverse land grab kind of thing. But then you also have to consider things like a lot of our universities were land grabs, right? Especially a lot of the universities and colleges that started out as agricultural and technical colleges, they were land grabs. They were like that land was stolen from indigenous people to create that university. Like it was stolen from the US government and then sold for pennies on the dollar to develop an educational institution. So in that context, land back could mean free admission for indigenous populations, right? Like, and so there's, when we get stuck on the how, we limit our creativity. We limit the possibility of what is actually possible. Because is it or will it be difficult to give the land back? Yes. But how can we expand on that definition? How can we expand on what that actually means in order to restore dignity and power back to the indigenous peoples of this country that have been harmed for generations, right? And I just want to say for me as a Black person, like, I have Indigenous roots in the Caribbean, but also when I think about the Indigenous peoples here, the institution of slavery would not have been possible without the annihilation. Not complete annihilation, but without the disruption of indigenous life on this land. Because when you think about the plantations, whether it was tobacco or cotton or whatever, where the hell do you think that land came from? It came from locations and geography that was stolen from indigenous populations. And this is something that whenever I do Black History Month facilitation sessions with different organizations, this is something that I really, really like to bring up. It really highlights the intersectionality of our struggles are connected. Like when you're thinking about people who farmed cotton, the actual land, like the actual soil could only produce enough cotton for a few seasons. And then after that, because of the nature of the way that cotton grows, it would become harder and harder to produce as much cotton on the same land. So you had to expand your property in order to key production levels high in order to continue for your farm to be profitable. in order to expand your property, what do you and if you have people that you've enslaved on your property, you need more workers. You need more enslaved people to continue to work until the land, right? So there is no definitive boundary between intersectional feminism and the land back movement. It's all part of the same struggle. It's all part of the same movement. I think indigenous rights and the land back movement and things like that get so lost in the lexicon of progress because there's assumption that we have that like, and I read about this in grad school. I don't remember the author's name, but there's this assumption that indigenous people no longer exist. And that's not true. That is absolutely not true. And that's on purpose, right? There's this intentional erasure that has happened over generations about indigenous way of life and indigenous cultures. And so I will, with my full fucking chest, always say land back because I do not want to be complicit in the erasure of Indigenous ways of life on this country.
Becky Mollenkamp: Thank you. I fully like I think is certainly this is an area where I have a major growth edge. I haven't done enough learning around Indigenous populations and Indigenous history and Indigenous movements. So it's definitely something I want to learn more about. I just looked and the US population of Indigenous people is in 2020, it was reported at 3.7 million, but it's also been reported as high as 9 point something. like somewhere between basically three, four and 10 million US citizens that have, that claim indigenous roots, right? That claim they are indigenous. I don't know, you know, also where those lines are drawn. it like, so that's, it's all murky and complicated and all of that. And out of a population of 300 and 40 or whatever we are million US citizens. It's obviously a small portion, but that doesn't mean it's non-existent. And I do think you're right that we often are made to feel that way, right? That there's just these small populations and they live on these, this land and you know, they're there doing their thing, I guess. Like we just don't, we don't, I think it's thought of as very separate and very small. And I, it makes me think of, and this may or may not be remotely right. But it makes me think a little bit of the way we have normalized Trump's hatred. the way you, the way this colonial kind of thinking works is like, we just, if you just slowly but surely chip away at reason, right? And heart. If you just do it in these like slow measured ways, sort of like it's the frog in the pot, right? If you put the frog in and you slowly turn up that boiling water to the point where it doesn't realize it's boiling to death until it's dead. Like, I feel like that's what happens and it's what's happened with the indigenous population and the messaging around that. Like over these hundreds of years, it's just been this slow erasure and minimization of what happened and erasure of the continued existence of these folks. Right? To the point of where it just, that becomes normalized as the way we think things are. And I think it's what's currently happening too with the approach to trying to talk about slavery by people on the right of like trying to do that same sort of thing of like minimizing and erasing that history. And it is scary because it certainly has worked. It worked on me, right? Like I, it's not to say that I, I know indigenous populations still exist. I don't know enough about the land back movement. I certainly don't clearly like I got get very literal about it. And hell, I'm happy to move to Europe. Like, it'd be fine. Like I'd actually love to move to Europe. So like in that way, I'm okay with the idea of like, get the hell out of here. White people like great, but I know like that's where my mind goes. But I think that's because the messaging that I have received is sort of that of like, it has to look this way. Like if we're talking about land back, means you have to go right, which threatens my privilege and existence. And so of course, that's going to be something I'm going to push back on, right? Like that conditioning. So it's good reminder that it doesn't have to look the way I think, like it doesn't have to look that way. It doesn't have to be that thing. So thank you for that reminder. These are the kinds of things that we need. Like I just, I would like to see, and I want to do more of in my own family and with my child using this time of year for that kind of education and discussion and thinking about what's possible. Because one of the things I wrote down in my notes to talk, if we're going to talk about this subject was also just like Columbus Day. That was for a long time a national holiday. It hasn't been, so it's not, it was not a federal holiday. It would maybe certain states that still have this holiday, right? Because it's no longer a federal holiday. That wasn't that long ago that that changed. And my point of bringing it up is only that the critical work of doing this education and discussing these things and talking about the reality of history did lead to change, right? It did lead to us saying, wait a minute, why are we celebrating this? Right, why are we celebrating this person? We shouldn't be doing that and let's change that. And I think change is possible. Thanksgiving's a different beast, I think, in a lot of ways. But that does give me some hope that maybe there is the possibility for things like the 4th of July and like Thanksgiving, that there can be a national discussion that leads to some degree of meaningful change, that it doesn't have to be a day of mourning only for Indigenous folks. Like maybe it is a day for, like, I think wouldn't it be cool if Thanksgiving became more of a day of service for the folk, you know, and continue to be a day of mourning for Indigenous folks and becomes more of a day of service for folks who are living here on stolen land, right? In the same way that I try to think about Juneteenth as a white person, like I like to think of that day as a day of service and education as a white person. Like it's not my day of celebration. What I think that day needs to be for white folks is a day where we learn and we give. And so I think why not something like that for Thanksgiving? So I don't know, maybe enough discussions there could be change. Maybe that's wishful thinking.
Taina Brown: I think there could be change. And I think, when we're talking about Indigenous repatriation and stewardship and the land back movement, like, that feels like a big change. like, you also have to consider this like on the individual level, like, what does the land back movement mean for you as an individual? Like, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to like stop with your Thanksgiving festivities, right? Maybe it's a land acknowledgement with your family about who the original owners of the land is. I've done that before, whether it was French giving or Thanksgiving. it's like, we always do this thing where we go around and we say what we're grateful for. And I include that as part of my moment to talk about what I'm grateful for. I share some things that I'm grateful for. And I also share that I am grateful for how the indigenous population stewarded this land before it was America. And so it can be these little ways for you to acknowledge and give away some of your own personal power. And that aligns with your values. And I like how you said it can also be a day of learning and service, right? Like if you don't know anything about indigenous history in the United States, read an Indigenous History of the United States. It's a book. Go get it, read it, learn. Read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. She's an ecologist, a biologist, and she has indigenous roots in this country. And she does a really, really good job of blending those two things and weaving this just like really compelling is not the right word, but just this really beautiful narrative of indigenous history in this country. And then make sure you know people who are indigenous, right? Like, I think that's probably the easiest but also the hardest for some people. Our social circles are so tight and we're so unwilling to go beyond our own social circles. Maybe it starts with curating your social feeds to make sure that you are getting indigenous information about what's happening in indigenous populations in your area. Yes, it's a big thing, but we can also make it really small.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. And again, I mean, to be fair ish, the indigenous population is so small, 1 % of or less of the United States. It's not even just social circles, but it may just literally be challenging to meet indigenous folks. And that is a byproduct of the absolute horrific nature of the starting of our country. So I think that's important for us to know why it's such a small population and not just the founding of the country, but for hundreds and still to today, the ways that we treat indigenous populations. But I love the idea of searching out folks online to learn from, to follow, just to even just to normalize for yourself. And I'm using air quotes because that sounds like a weird way of saying it. like, if you don't have any experience with a particular population of some sort, rushing out to try and make friends with that population is actually not a good idea.
Taina Brown: It’s not the way to go.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I also just think like, again, like just having for your visual and understanding of humanity, it's important to be filling your feeds on social media and elsewhere with voices of all sorts. So indigenous, yes, black voices, know, Asian voices, all the fat people, right? Like disabled people, whatever the differences are, just to normal for you to understand these people exist, they're humans. Here's what their experience of living is like, right? Before you rush out to be friends with somebody that you're not ready to be friends with, because you're not gonna be safe for them. So I think that's really great to bring that up. I love breeding sweet grass. I wanna also suggest for anyone who hasn't done it yet, you can go to native-land.ca where you can actually look up your address specifically and it will go down to the place where you are and show you the native tribes or native peoples that were there originally. nice, nice. So you can always look at it. Mm-hmm. Well, and I mean, yeah, I am so lame. I don't use the, or uncool. I don't use the apps. I just go like on my Safari, on my phone, to native-land.ca.
Taina Brown: They also have an app that you can download on your phone. Not Safari, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know, like I tell like uncool I am. But anyway, so like I will acknowledge that I am on the land of the Osage and Kickapoo people. And I think it's important for us all to look those up. like one, like you just said, small actions. One super small action is to do a land acknowledgement at your Thanksgiving celebration. Right. What is what are what is the land that you're on? Who are those folks? And then like you said, to do reading, I think doing the larger reading around the native folks you know, indigenous peoples of America, but also like, what about the indigenous people of the area you're in? Like, and I'm in Missouri. We don't have, as far as I know, I don't know that we even have any reservations on our land. There could be in Missouri, but I don't know of them. We're close to many in Oklahoma. Obviously, Oklahoma has, I think, the greatest number of reservation land in the U.S., if I'm not mistaken. But we're, you know, we don't have a lot of that. But I know of monuments and parks and things near me that are specifically about the indigenous populations of that land. And I think that exists all over the US, no matter how close or far you are from actual continuing native lands, right? Like reservations. Go find those, go to those places. Make that part of your, instead of Black Friday shopping, instead of, right? Like these are those little things you mentioned. Like it doesn't all have to be big.
Taina Brown: And I think also, one thing that could be fun, if you have kids, you could incorporate, let's say, the original stewards of the land that you're on is the Osage. Talk to your children. You could do research with your children about that tribe and what their life was like on that land before. How did they come together to have gatherings? They didn't call it Thanksgiving, but I'm sure they had some kind of gatherings or certain celebrations and things like that. And you don't have to incorporate any of those things into how you celebrate, because, again, the line between appreciation and cultural appropriation. But maybe there's a recipe that you could try if you like cooking. You could talk to your kids about it. I just, you mentioned you were on Osage land. I just want to acknowledge I'm in Baltimore. So the land that I'm on is Takwa and Ozzini. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right. I hope that I am. If I'm not, I'm sorry.
Becky Mollenkamp: Again, representative of the fact that we don't even know, right? And I have not heard of either of those tribes, which tells us a lot. And to be truthful, when I looked at where I'm at, there was actually four tribes, and I only mentioned two because those are the two I know and I knew how to pronounce. So I'll be honest, there were two others that I didn't want to try to say because I don't know how, and I had never heard of them. And that says a lot because I think we don't even know the richness. You know, the richness and I think looking for like there's amazing Indigenous created and Indigenous centered movies and shows. Be careful about the things that aren't, but find things that are. And like that can also be part of what we do. You know, the thing I think I'm going to ask my kid. So here's how I'm going to leave things. I think my mission for this week of Thanksgiving is to ask my eight year old without any education first to just say, cause he does know like, you know that we live on land that was once a home to other folks and that we came in, the white people came in and we stole that land. And I want to ask him, what do you think we should do? Like, what do you think would be the right thing to do if, know, 200 years later, 300 years later, almost 300, we've stolen this land. What do you think we could do to make that right, to make that better? I'm very curious because children, before they get so ruined by all of us, they're so fucking wise. They're so wise. My kids say stuff to me all the time that I'm like, well, duh, yeah. Like it's amazing to me the way he sees the world. He hasn't been fully corrupted yet. So I'm very interested to get his perspective and maybe I'll report back because I would love to hear what he has to say. I bet he would have ideas around Lambach that my sadly, you know, infested condition brain hat was is short to, you know, is quick to write off. He probably it would probably be logical to him. So that's an exercise for the parents listening that I think might be worth. Just try it, see what your kids have to say.
Taina Brown: I'm going to do some more research about the original stewards of this land here, here in Baltimore. since obviously I don't know anything about them and I've never, I've never even heard of those tribes. So, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Thank you. I'm going to do the same. Thank you for that commitment. Because I the two I said Osage and Kickapoo I know some of that. I don't know the others. I'm going to do the same. So those will be I'm making two commitments for how I want to the small steps. Like you said, the small steps that we can just slowly integrate to maybe make this holiday mean to something a little different. I'm also going to try to commit to other than I do think we have to buy a new TV because one of ours has died. The fact that I'm saying one of ours really makes me feel gross, too. But we do have more than one TV in our house. But other than that, I'm going to really try to avoid Black Friday sales. I'm not a big Black Friday person anyway, but I really want to try to reduce my consumerism this week.
Taina Brown: I think when I was younger, I tried to get into Black Friday stuff. And I think same for my wife. But now that we're older, we're just like, it's just one, it feels gross. Two, it's chaotic. It's just like, it's all the ugly things. Yeah, yeah. It's just all the ugly things about consumerism and capitalism that just do not make me feel good about being a human being.
Becky Mollenkamp: I would only do online. I don't do the in-person
Taina Brown: But we do need some new technology.
Becky Mollenkamp: I said hard part, they really do discount the TV. So I am going to be fully honest that we are probably going to buy a TV in Black Friday online and that's it. And I'm also fully committed to not and I haven't for years, but not offering Black Friday sales in my business. And honestly, I don't even do small business Saturday or any of those sales, but I do try to buy. as a reminder, small business Saturday, forget Black Friday. Participate in Small Business Friday or Saturday. Go find online and in person. Go out in your community. Find the small businesses and maybe specifically try to find the small businesses that are owned by indigenous populations, number one. And if not, then buy folks who have marginalized identities and go support them. They need it.
Taina Brown: Indigenous people.
Becky Mollenkamp: And then Monday is, what do they call it? Give back Monday? Whatever it is. I don't know, everything's got a cute name. I don't remember what it is. But just as the other reminder, Monday is the day of of giving. So finding those organizations doing good work in the world and donating. And how about donating to some Indigenous organizations? And maybe we'll look some up that are doing some good work and include them in the show notes if you know of some. Because I would like to know more about some of those organizations that are doing good work for Indigenous folks, run by and for Indigenous folks.
Taina Brown: That's a good idea. I also, as a business owner, do not... I think I tried the Black Friday thing once and then it's like, for one... Well, first of all, it's hard when you're a service-based business to do a Black Friday kind of thing. I feel like that's more for product-based businesses. But also, I don't want to contribute to the ugly consumerism and chaos and pressure that a lot of people feel. Around that time, I want my business to be a place where people can come and feel like they can rest and they're safe. And Black Friday just like this regulates the nervous system. yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: It's all FOMO. I don't want people to invest in anything with me coaching or when I offer other things, because I do have some like little, I have some product kind of things, but I wouldn't want people to buy for that reason that FOMO sort of feeling, which is rooted in scarcity. I want them to do it because they're feeling abundant, right? Because they have money to give, they have space to give, they feel called in and the work feels expansive. I know you feel the same way. And so I think that's also just part of looking at. Like as you're making choices this Thanksgiving season around shopping, and honestly, this is all the time, just pausing, practicing a pause to ask yourself like, what's motivating this decision? We need a new TV. I will probably buy, we were going to buy a TV anyway, because we need to replace one. So I will take advantage of a discount if I can do that. That feels like an expansive thing. Like I'm getting something in that arrangement. like, I'm actually saving myself some money. It feels good. But most of the decisions that people make in those then, or a lot of times myself, it is like, I'm doing it because I'm feeling some emotional hole I'm trying to fill. That's a big one for me, emotional shopping.
Taina Brown: A false sense of urgency.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right. Other people are doing it. So I guess I ought to buy the latest thing I saw on TikTok. So just really taking that second to ask yourself, what's motivating my purchase of anything? Just check in. Make sure it feels expansive and not constrictive. So, yeah.
Taina Brown: I agree 100%. If you are, if you're deciding not to participate in Black Friday, or if you start researching and learning about the original stewards of the land that you're on, if you are indigenous person in this country listening or watching, let us know your thoughts and how you're feeling about this holiday.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes. Messy liberation at gmail.com. We really want you all to email us. We feel lonely. So email us. I would definitely love to hear about what people are like. I think if you do any, first of all, what you do, like what's your small step you're taking for this Thanksgiving season? I would love to hear. And then if you do any research about the indigenous populations in your area, I totally want to know because I want to learn it. Like the fact that there are two in my area I've never heard of, I had never heard of the two that you mentioned. Like that just says so much and I want to learn. I want to learn. So I'm excited to learn. Share with us messyliberation.gmail.com.
Taina Brown: Yes, we want to hear from you. Thanks for listening.
Becky Mollenkamp: How are we ending? How are we talking about Thanksgiving now? How are we ending this? Happy Thanksgiving?
Taina Brown: We can say Happy Thanksgiving, I think, with an asterisk.
Becky Mollenkamp: I feel like that's what I do on 4th of July. Happy 4th of July, asterisk, I get it, this country is shit. So, right? And I feel like happy Thanksgiving, asterisk, I get it, this country is shit. And let's try to do better.
Taina Brown: Or we could do like Happy Thanksgiving, question mark.
Becky Mollenkamp: That's mostly how I feel. It's more like happy question mark Thanksgiving. All right, well, happy question mark Thanksgiving to all of you listening, and we'll be back after the holiday to share some more messy shit.
Taina Brown: Yes. Have a good one.