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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the Dad Tired podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by Thrive Family Life. They are all about bringing gospel centered conversations to everyday life, which is obviously so on brand here with what we're trying to do at Dad Tired, thrive Family Life creates tons of resources for you as a dad or a wife or a husband, to figure out ways to point us back to the gospel and very easy.
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Preston, super excited to be hanging out with you today, man, even before we hit record or as we try to hit record, we've got all kinds of. Uh, technical issues, which always makes me think like we're probably gonna get into something good. I told you right as we were starting here that I don't over, I try not to oversize everything, but you just also wonder too, like I.
There's an enemy at play here who hates the things that we're talking about, you know? So For sure. Yeah, for sure. So we're on a phone call right now for you guys who are listening. Normally we would do this on some other software or uh, video, but we had to adjust to a phone call, just for technical sake to get this out.
But Preston, I'm just, yeah, I'm a big fan, bro, of what you are doing and what you and your wife are doing and the, the, the resources you guys are putting out to equip the church globally. But for Yeah. People who may not be familiar with you, just tell us who you are and what you're up to these days. Well man, thanks for having me on.
Like I said, man, I'm honored to share this space with you and your audience. Man, I don't take it lightly at all. My name's Preston. I'm from the South, south Chicago, and I'm a husband to a beautiful wife named Jackie. We have four kids, August, um, Sage, Eden, and Autumn, and I'm a Bible teacher, an apologist evangelist.
A poet and I'm a, you know, I'm a new author. I just wrote my first book and me and my wife, we host a podcast called With the Perry. Some people may know it as 30 Minutes with the Perry, so we change it to, with the Perrys. You know, we have a YouTube channel called with the Perry, where we just talk about really the goodness of the Lord, discipleship, marriage, theology, a myriad topics that point to our great Lord and Savior.
Yeah, so I, I do a couple different things, but mainly. It's disciple making. How can I make disciples of all nations, um, using the various gifts that the Lord has given me, uh, whether that's poetry, teaching, evangelism, et cetera. So yeah, that's kind of the nutshell of who I am. Yeah, dude. And you're, you're doing a lot of things, but you're doing a lot of things really well.
Oh, appreciate it. Yeah, you're doing, I don't always feel that way. Yeah, no, you're doing a, I mean, I don't have a, like a camera to watch you be a dad all the time, so I can't speak to that, but I'm sure you're crushing as a dad too and as a husband, uh, you know, we kind of get a glimpse into your marriage through your podcast, which is one of the most popular podcasts out there and YouTube videos.
I, I think what people appreciate about you as your ability or your willingness to jump into topics that. Maybe they wouldn't hear in their church or around normal Christian circles. You know, like you guys are, aren't clearly afraid to, to tackle that stuff, which I think people really enjoy. Yeah. But yeah.
Dope. Dope. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, bro, like how did you come to know Jesus? Like how did Jesus chase you down to the point where now you're using these gifts to, like I said, equip the church in many ways, but how did that get started? Yeah, I'm not trying to plug my book, but I wrote all about this in my, in my new book, it's called How to Tell The Truth.
Yeah, yeah, man. Uh, I, I talk about a lot about this guy named Gary. So, uh, long story short, because I don't wanna give you the very long version, but I didn't grow up in church. I didn't grow up around Christians like that. The only Christian that I kinda grew up around was my grandmother and she was like, that real Christian, that Christian that would like love you well and rebuke it.
And then the same seven, she was one of those people and she was like the sole Christian in my, in my family. And so I had a sense of who God was, but my grandmother wasn't the type of person who would like. Force religion down your throat, but you just modeled Christianity Well, but it wasn't until I was 18 and uh, uh, one of my friends, he was shot outside my house and I had felt like the Lord was calling me to himself.
I. Because two years prior to my friend getting shot, I heard the gospel for the first time in the House Church. I was chasing some girl, and long story short, in the House Church, the pastor got up and said, if you believe that God will not destroy you because you're sin. You don't know what love is. God must destroy everything that he hates.
You can either meet God as friend. Or you can meet him one day as judge. And that was shook me. That was the first time I heard that I was a sinner and that God had beef with the way that I was living my lifestyle. And I was like that rocking. 'cause I had heard about God. I heard my grandma sing about him and talk about him and talk to him about, he's like an old friend.
That was the first time. And so two years after that, my friend gets shot and I feel like the Lord was like when my friend was out there dying and my mom was trying to revive him, I felt like the Lord was like. You and your sin, you are dead. Because when I heard the gospel for the first time when I was 16 in the House church, I didn't give my life to the Lord.
But I became keenly aware. I became keenly aware of my sin. I knew that I was an enemy of God. And so two years later, when the Lord used that incident to draw me to himself, I left my neighborhood that I was living in. And when I went to my aunt house who was a minister, she really couldn't make a very, like a big impact on my life, but she introduced me to a guy named Gary Brown.
Gary Brown was this guy who grew up not in my neighborhood, but grew up in Chicago that I knew of. He used to be a gang member, and God had radically changed his life. And Gary took me under his wing and for two and a half years, Gary discipled me and taught me the gospel. He taught me how to live a life worthy, and I remember being in my room one day really feeling the weight of my sin, and I really felt like the Lord was like.
You don't love me, like Gary loves you, and the weight of that was heavy. And so I remember crying out to the Lord that day and asking the Lord to save me, and I believe he saved me that day in my room. That was the day I felt different. That's the day I, I felt empowered to say no to my sin. And so I tell people all the time, like through Gary's life, it's how I.
Gave my life to Jesus. Wow. I tried to keep it as short as possible. Yeah, yeah. Obviously. And it, it's cool that you wrote it all down. Obviously we can dive in deeper to in the book. Yeah, for sure. Um, I know you like geek out on theology and Apologetics, so just on, on your own story there with kind of piggybacking off of your own story and in now your experience of being a follower of Jesus for it sounds 20 years, what are your thoughts on like.
I know we're getting into a kind of a big theological topic here, but like, do you think you had a choice in the matter of being saved? No. Well, man, honestly, I, I don't, yeah. I really don't. I, I, I don't believe that we, we choose God. I believe that God chose me. Yeah. Which is one of the things that I said in my book that God wanted me when I didn't want him.
I believe that the Bible is right when it says that our hearts are the brave and wicked. Right. And, and we are born. And so for me, I did everything in my power to avoid this God, because I saw saying yes to this. God was saying no to all the scenes that loved me, that never that I loved, that never left me back.
You know? Yeah. And so because of that, I ran from God, but God chased me. Yeah. You know, and revealed to me, and I, and one thing I said in, in the book, I said, the interesting thing about sin is that you can live comfortable with it your whole life, but once you are made aware of how offensive it is, all holy and a righteous God, it becomes an unwaning guess in the home of your heart.
Like a nagging, unwanted guest. Mm. And so for me, that, that was my story. That I knew I was a sinner, but I didn't always care. Yeah. Uh, it was some, it was a situation which, when God came into my life, I cared about how offensive this was to a holy and a righteous God. And I believe that God did that work.
He did that work. Yeah, because he chased me and he wanted me, and so there's so many ramifications to that, to building a theology on that. But I, I agree with you. Like I've been in ministry 20 plus years and knowing my own story and just hearing story after story after story, it's like, dude, I just don't know if people have a choice.
Like God's pursuing him, he's chasing him down. Yeah, I just don't know if you're gonna escape it, you know? Like Yeah. And it's, it sounds like that was your story too. It, it is crazy too that the, this guy Gary, like he discipled you too. That's super rare. Like when you said that, I'm like, that's so rare.
'cause we have such a conversion model, right? In the church as a whole, like just say a prayer or like sign up for the church membership and you're good. But the discipleship thing is really, you said you were trying to disciple people. That's super rare. We don't hear that language very often. Yeah, no, I think discipleship is key.
I think when we look at Jesus' relationship with, with his disciples, not even just talking about Jesus' relationship to. With his disciples, but just talk about Jesus in his time. The way they made disciples is by shadowing their rabbis, right? Their teachers, right? And so this is how they learned, you know?
And so when Jesus is walking past and John the Baptist and his disciples see Jesus, and John the Baptist says, look, to go the level of God. And they begin to follow him. Jesus turns and says, you know, what are you seeking? And they say, you know Jesus, where are you staying? That question was asked, not because they wanted to see what his house looked like.
When it's translated, it literally means we wanna see how you live. Wow. We wanna learn from you. And so he says, what? Follow me and I'll make you fishers of men. It's like, follow and shadow him. Notice how they didn't say. Jesus, when is the next sermon? Right? Or, or Jesus, when is the next conference? Right.
These are, I'm not demonizing these things right. I'm not, you know, but discipleship making, I, I do think it's very important in, in the Christian faith because somebody might be called to the Lord, but that doesn't mean that they know how to be a Christian. Right. That's right. You know, and this is the reason why the, the Bible says that some people.
Have, you know, seeds planted and the enemy comes very quickly and, and swipes it out, or the wind comes and blows it away. And I think discipleship helps people become rooted in the faith and helps people to remain with Jesus. And so I, I do think God calls people to himself, but I do think that he has called us to a community where people can pour into people who are.
Less mature in the favor to help us and to teach us how to be Christians. And so I think ultimately my testimony is that Gary's life showed me that I wasn't a Christian. You know, like through his life I was able to see, I. What Christianity looked like and it didn't look like me. Wow. Right. And so I think that's what real discipleship does.
I think it invites people into a life and shows them firsthand what it looks like to follow Jesus. So I, I think it's crucial, and I think it's something that the Christian community probably should pick up more and more than often. You know, I don't think it's happening a lot in our churches. And I have a bunch of thoughts on, on why I think it's not happening a lot, but I Why do you think it's not happening very often?
Man. So I think a lot of churches, man, that's a loaded question. Yeah. How much time do you have? I got, I, I got nothing but bro until got. Before I answer that question, can I just give like a precursor or Yeah, of course. I'm very careful not to bash your church. Right, totally. Because I think a lot, there's a lot of bashing of God's church.
I agree. Yep. That's unhealthy. Yep. Right. I agree. I believe that if Christ loves his church, I feel like we should have a healthy love for his church too. Yeah. Because we are part of the church that we're critiquing. Right? Yeah. And so some of this falls on us. Right. That's so good. Um, but I do think there is a healthy critique of the church.
That we can give and love. Yeah, and I think the healthy critique is, I think a lot of times church is stray from the life on life discipleship relationships, because the church in a lot of ways has become so economic driven. Mm-hmm. Or funds driven, or this has become an organization business life, right, where we're businesslike.
Right. When we create an atmosphere that says, oh yeah, you come to the church. You listen to a person teach and you go home, that is also a form of discipleship, especially if the sound, the teaching is sound and it's rooted in biblical truth. Yeah. And Christology and all of the things. Right. But I, I do think that we sell ourselves short when we, I.
Do not teach men and women how to be disciples Monday through Saturday. Yeah. And so that's a part of it. I also think that discipleship is just not a culture in a lot of places, and I feel like a, a discipleship culture has to be developed in a lot of places. And so I do think that it's not done out of ignorance, people not really seeing the significance, the benefits of it, of a healthy church.
I was talking to a guy. Who went to a church. I met him at a show and he was saying he loves the church 'cause he likes the teaching, but everybody is forcing him to be married. Right? Hmm. Everybody's forcing him to be a husband and it almost seems as if it's Christian maturity rest solely on him being willing to say, I do it.
Or not to a woman. Right. In a marriage alter. But the thing is, I think when people don't understand is a lot of men don't feel like they're ready to be husbands. 'cause they haven't learned how to be disciples yet. Hmm. Wow. Like if we don't teach men how to be holistic disciples, they don't feel equipped to lead be, be fathers.
Wow. To be husbands. Right. And so I think holistic discipleship, healthy holistic discipleship says, I'm not just gonna teach you the Bible, but I'm gonna invite people in my lives and show you how I love my wife. Show you how I. Apologize to my wife when I'm wrong. Show you how I love my children. Show you how I respond to my enemies, show you how I fight sin and go to war on my flesh.
Like that type of discipleship is something that you can't learn necessarily through a pulpit that teaches people how to be Christians. Yeah. And so I, I just think stuff like that is just very important. And I, I think when churches start to see the benefit of, no, we would have a healthy church when it's a healthy culture of discipleship, I think more churches should start doing it.
Yeah. So I, man, I appreciate you digging into that. I agree with you. I think, you know, I, I worked in the church world for a long time and I love the church. I think that that is God's tool for reaching the world is his church, you know, his bride. And I love the way that you preface that by saying, I. I don't want to critique the bride in unhealthy ways, but I think it's okay to just assess ourselves.
And I say ourselves, you know, we're part of the church, as you said. You know, it's like is is there? Are there areas that we can grow in? But I do think that there is a lot of business-like stuff, and discipleship has turned, it's not as flashy because it's slow, it's hard to like measure. I can measure church attendance.
Yeah. And I can measure tithe and budgets. How many people got baptized? Anything that we can put numerical values. I can measure. Yes. But how do you measure? Yeah. You know, like I've spent three years with this dude and I'm just trying to help him grow in his faith. That's hard to measure. It's slow and you can't really disciple.
Yeah. At scale really. It just takes a long time. But you know what, that's funny you say that. You know what's crazy though, if we really look at it, I try not to speak blanketly at at times, but I would argue the, the fact that Jesus. Made more of an impact of pouring into 12 men that he did than preaching into large crowds.
Totally, totally. But we don't see. Sermons on the mound over and over and over again in the scripture, things like that. But we see Jesus consistently with 12 men who faithfully poured into them and they poured into others. And then they poured into others. Yeah, they poured into others, right? Yeah. And so this is how I.
Primarily the gospel is spread throughout the whole earth through the witness of individuals. And so when you talk about numbers, I think the church, we glorify things like altar calls and church attendance and stuff like that. And I don't think that it's necessarily all the way wrong because I think it speaks to the way expectation we have.
Mm-hmm. But I think that in order for us to be true disciple makers, true evangelists, we have to be okay with not seeing the weight of our work until we get to glory. Hmm. We have to be okay with Yeah. Being seed planters and knowing that God does so much with our faithfulness. The apostles was not able to see all the fruit of their work until, until they probably got to heaven.
Yeah. You know, they were killed. Yeah. Right. But this personal spreading of gospel through people is so effective. Right. It is how Christianity was spread. Originally throughout the earth. And so I do think that we do an injustice when we look to church attendance and CH and conferences and only to be like, because I do think that it ha, it's a place for that.
I, I think God uses these spaces. I'm not for sure bashing these spaces for sure, but at the same time. They should be a launching pad to do everyday life. Yeah. Like are we preparing people to make disciples outside of the four walls of the church because Jesus did. Jesus, he prepared his disciples to do so.
I think that if I'm just speaking about myself, 'cause again, I don't wanna just bash the, the church as a whole or critique the church as a whole. If I think about myself, it's just really, really hard. Like when I talk about how hard it is and how slow it is. I just think about my own personal life. Like you're a dad of four too, and you're doing all these things.
Yeah. And to invite what? Gary didn't invite you to go through a book once a week at Starbucks from what it sounds like. Like he invited you to see his whole life. That's slow. True. You know what I mean? And it's messy. I. And the guys who have discipled me, it wasn't like, Hey, meet me at Starbucks every Tuesday and we'll go through this book.
It was like, no, come watch me, me be married. Watch how I got in that argument with my wife. Sit at my dinner table. Yeah, yeah. Drive in the car with me. See how I interacted with that person, you know? And it's just like, sure. That takes a lot of time to invite somebody else into your life like that. I saw this reel.
Yeah. The other day. It was this young woman who was talking about, it was for moms, but she was encouraging moms to like hire a babysitter because it was an opportunity for the babysitter to essentially be discipled. She, I don't know if she used that word, but it's like, she was basically saying like, I learned how to keep, how to keep a house organized through Mrs.
So-and-so, and I learned how to discipline kids through Mrs. So-and-so basically every time this mm-hmm. This girl was getting. Invited to babysit it for a family. She was being discipled by that wife. Absolutely. Which I thought was really, really interesting. Yeah. Go ahead. I thought that was super interesting.
I think that's exactly what discipleship looks like. One, I just wanna say, when I first got married, right when I was younger in the faith 15 years ago, I had way more time on my hand. Opposed to having four children. Right, right. But when I was a single Christian, when I was a single male before me, I had more time on my hand than that.
Mm-hmm. Right. And so one, I tell people all the time, 10 years ago if you saw me, you always saw like four or five dudes with me. I don't do that now because I have more responsibilities. And so I don't think that it is ever God's intention for us to run ourselves dry. Trying to disciple the world because as dads and husbands, disciples and our children is also a form of discipleship, like they're our primary ministry.
And so one, don't neglect. That's good. The people in front of you just to disciple somebody outside the house, right? Right. And so one, we have to know that God. Cares about our lives and our lives. He doesn't mind us adjusting. And so maybe you can't disciple for a young man. Maybe you can invite one guy.
Like right before this podcast, one of my Disciplers Jovan just left. I mean, we spent two and a half hours just talking about the scriptures, talking about marriage. He got married in last December, so he's been married a year. He just celebrated his year anniversary. And so just making time to pour into that person.
I'll never probably even see on this side of heaven all the lives that he will impact just because I invested in him. And so, one, I think that we gotta just keep that in mind also. Two, what you just said about the lady who. Set up under the woman who taught her how to discipline kids and all of these things.
I mean, I think that's what Matthew 28, when it says, therefore, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That word gold can be interpreted as as you go, right? Like as you do life. Like I'm not even changing what I usually do. I'm just being intentional and inviting you into it.
Yeah, because. You know, I tell people all the time, bro, like I gave my life to the Lord following Gary and watching him fail. Mm. Right. Wow. And so the short story was, I. I started to mimic Gary Life. I write about this in the book. I started to mimic Gary Life. I start, you know, you know when you become a Christian, you break all your secular CDs and you think that's like salvation, right?
It's like, I didn't broke these D MX CDs. I'm a Christian now. Yeah. I remember doing that and I started mimicking his life and I started to convince myself that I was a Christian. And for some reason, like I had this doubt in my mind that do I really love God? But then I was like, maybe I am a Christian.
I'm doing everything that Gary is doing, so maybe I'm a Christian. But what I see now that I didn't know then is that Christianity is not be about behavior modification, but it's about a heart change. Yeah. And so Gary came to pick me up to go play basketball one day. In the hood, and he stopped at the bank in the drive-through.
And this lady on the drive through a very beautiful young girl, flirted with him. Mm. And for some reason, he flirted back. This is the first time I ever saw Gary flirt with somebody. Mm-hmm. And he flirted back and gave the girl attention back. And I'm sitting at the past seat all nosy, like, oh, I know he's gonna get her number, you know?
Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden, Carrie clams up. He drives off really fast after the lady hand handed his ID and everything and I was confused. And so 10 minutes later, long story short, Gary stops the car and he says, P 'cause he called me PP Man, I wanna apologize to you, bro. Like, why are you apologizing to me?
He was like, man, that girl was flirting with me back then, bro. And I was like, why are you upset? She was flirting with you. He was like, nah, bro. He was like, that time I entertained it. What made it worse is she was in the car to witness it and all my thoughts with this girl have been lustful. I feel so convicted.
Mm. I feel so convicted, bro. He was like, I started to get water and he was like, bro, would you pray with me? I need to repent. Wow. Wow. Geez was like, whoa. What? Is this, I've never seen, I like, I've never seen anything like this. Right? Yeah. You gotta understand, like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. This might be small to somebody, but for me at that time, oh, that's huge.
It was revolutionary. That's huge. I was like, whoa. A young man. Like literally, you know? And so during his prayer, it was like a assault, like as he was praying, it's like somebody placed a thought in my head. I feel like it was the Lord. It was like, like Preston, this is what it means to love me and you don't love me like this.
That day I went home that night, I repented the game my life to Jesus. Geez. And so I, I say that to say this is, Gary invited me into his life. He didn't invite me into a perfect life, right? But he invited me into a life that was dependent on a perfect God man, and it showed me it was a huge contrast of my life and his I.
It was like, whoa, now I see how far away I am from God because I see how close you are to him. Wow. And so I think that's what real Life on Life Discipleship does. And so I think because of that, it's powerful. And so we can invite people in our lives and not make it up, not fluff it up, not try to be perfect, but if we show them that.
No, like I have a relationship with this God. Like for me, Gary's life made a life of Jesus a, a relationship with Jesus, tangible. Like if God came and met him, maybe he wants to have a relationship with me too. Wow. Maybe I can be close with him too. And so I think that's what real life and life this type of ship does.
And I think that's the power of just. As I go, let me bring somebody who doesn't know the Lord or is very immature in the Lord with me. So, man, man, that's so good. And that kind of stuff. Just can't, and I'm not bashing, uh, you know, meeting at Starbucks at on Tuesdays or whatever, but that stuff you gotta get in real life.
Like you gotta get into real, I can be somebody else on Tuesdays at Starbucks, but you watch me at the drive through or whatever, you're gonna catch real glimpses. You watch me with my wife, with my kids. Uh, again, that's real life discipleship. I would just say for the listener. Yeah, like two things to think about right now for you listening.
One would be who comes to mind? When you think about that, like who comes to mind, one that you could pour into, like if you're listening to the Dad Tired podcast, most likely you're trying hard to love Jesus, which means you're probably a little bit far on your journey. Uh, you're, you're somewhere ahead of somebody on your journey of trying to follow Jesus.
And so is there somebody in your life, maybe a college student, a young, married, some guy in your church, a neighbor. Somebody that just gave their life to Christ. Somebody that's just like, that comes to your mind right now. It's like, dude, I should probably invite that guy into my life more. And then the second question would be just like, what are you already doing that you could invite that guy into?
You don't have to make stuff up, like Preston was just saying, but like, what could you invite them already into? So I just got my oil change and I had to go sit at the dealership for an hour or whatever and I, I was thinking I should have brought somebody with me here. You know, like just come do. I'm already doing this.
I already have this time allotted in my schedule. Somebody should be with me to be part of this. So that kind of thing. Yeah. You know, but bro, that's a, that's really powerful. For sure. That's a really powerful picture of what you shared. Yeah. Sometimes, uh, Jackie will post like videos of you. I she'll like, uh, she'll do like a hidden camera of you guys, like an an Uber or something that you're like, oh my gosh.
Yeah, you, you guys are, you're talking to somebody about, you're always talking to people about Jesus and she'll, she'll catch doing it, you know. So it's fun for us to watch that from afar, but how do you marry those two things that we're just talking about where you're like, you're passionate, obviously about discipleship, but also about evangelism.
'cause you, you're not gonna be able to most likely bring the Uber driver into your life and have long-term discipleship. And so instead of just saying, well, it's not even worth talking to this dude right now because I'm, I won't have a long relationship with him. You still seem to be passionate about evangelism, like how do you marry those two things in your mind?
Yeah, because I think evangelism and life on life, discipleship is ultimately done, but the same reasons is to make disciples. Mm-hmm. It's just a different way. Right. I love how we see Jesus gives us an example both. Yeah. We see Jesus walking with Peter and John and Judas and the disciples and, and teaching them how to be disciples with life on life relationship.
Right. But we also see him not necessarily having a relationship with the woman at the well, but having a one-on-one encounter. Right. That lasted. I don't really know how long it lasted, but it wasn't very long. Right. Right. Where he revealed himself to her and told her to go tell every, you know what I mean?
Like she went and told everybody. She, like, she became an evangelist. Right. She talked to G like this man that I, I don't even know, came and told me everything about myself. Right. And so we see Jesus doing both. I tell people all the time, I love evangelism. I love apologetics. And I love discipleship making.
They're not the same thing, but they're definitely, they definitely hold hands. I tell people all the time, the moment you tell somebody that you're a Christian, you are an evangelist, the moment they ask questions, Hey, you become an apologist. Mm. And the moment they're willing to follow you, you become a disciple maker.
Wow. And so for me, you know, I understand that I have those moments where I feel led by the Lord to just share Jesus with somebody. Because I'm an evangelist. I believe that God. Kinda in this sovereignty made me an imagin, honestly. Mm. But when I get into the Uber ride and I see like some stuff that might indicate this person is of another religion, I'm gonna ask questions and I'm gonna see if.
There's a door for me to introduce Jesus to them. 'cause I, I do think discipleship making is a process. And I understand the process because like I said in the beginning of the call, the first time I heard the gospel, I was 16 at a house church. I didn't give my life to the Lord, but I became kingly aware of my sin and I became conscious that this Jesus was real and he was requiring something for me.
Mm. And so when I think about evangelism, that's what I think. I think about, man, I'm not necessarily looking for this person. I'm not gonna be disappointed if this person doesn't say, oh, okay. Are you convinced me? I wanna give my life to Jesus right now, but I'm okay with planting those seeds and allowing somebody later on in, in their life to water that seed to disciple them.
Yeah, because that guy who shared the gospel with me when I was 16 years old, he didn't know that. His words impacted me that much, right? He was just faithful and just shared the gospel. And then through God's sovereignty in my story, he used Gary later on to help water that seed of faith that was planted some years back, right?
And so I, that's how I look at evangelism and that's why I view evangelism like I view it. And so I just know that God is faithful to do great. Works with the work that we do. Yeah. Uh, and the seeds that we plant. I think there are a lot of guys listening to this who probably, they're like, dude, all right, I hear what you're saying.
You know, and you, you call yourself an evangelist, but like, I'm an accountant, you know, or like, I run a small business, or I'm, or doing whatever, and I'm not an evangelist. And most guys probably feel like there's no, I don't even know how I would turn a conversation from some, an Uber driver or a guy at the deli.
Whatever. How do you even shift the conversation from a sandwich or an Uber ride to the things of God? Like how are you thinking? That's a really good question. Yeah. How are you thinking through that? Man? You know what outta all the questions that you've asked so far, and they've all been good, but I love this question the most because I think.
People can understand. And I spent all morning talking to one of the guy that I disciple about this. 'cause he has a heart for evangelism. If a lot of times we are not effective evangelism, we don't even realize that we're evangelists because we're so focused on ourselves. Yeah. One. But we're also focused on what people believe and not why they believe it.
Mm-hmm. And so I think that if we get to the why of people. Believe things. I think that our evangelism can be a lot more effective and it can be listened to the, it can be a lot more natural. Yeah. And so when I get into a car, I'm not merely trying to come against what someone believes to evangelize to them.
I'm literally trying to get to know them and why they believe it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so the one way you do that is instead of telling people. Know what you believe is wrong, and the Bible says this is to invite people into a conversation by asking good questions. Yep. Right. I think I. Learning how to ask good questions and being inquisitives will help conversations be natural.
And once a conversation is natural, God will give you a door to share truth eventually. Mm-hmm. And so I, I do think it's about being spirit led, but for me it is. And, and also, I'm not trying to make this sound easy. I will say that it comes with practice. Yeah. If like every Christian is called to make disciples, right.
Matthew 28 is not talking to just evangelists, it's talking to all Christians. Right. That if you're called to make disciples, however that looks like, what methodology will help eliminate fears or yada, yada, yada. Like if you ask good questions. And so one of the things that I love about Jesus is that he asks questions.
Yeah. That he already knew the answer to. Yeah. Well, he asked the woman at the, well, where's your husband? He knew she had fives, right? And so he's inviting her into a conversation so he, so that he can reveal something to her. And so I, I do think that we just have to be intentional about the questions that we ask, but also too, I.
You said something like some people might list be listening in their accounting or whatever, and they might not necessarily be called to be an evangelist in a particular way. They might not be called to be an evangelist, but they are called to make disciples and that looks differently. And one of the things that I try to communicate in the book that I wrote is.
God is going to use you. How he has uniquely made you. I don't think that we should think evangelism should look one way. Yeah. Because that gives a disservice to the God who created us all differently. I. Yeah, like one time I was in the airport coming home with Jackie. We was leaving Virginia, coming to Atlanta, and I saw two Jehovah's witnesses in the airport.
Of course, I felt compelled to go talk to them and I was like, babe, I'm finna go talk to these Jehovah's Witnesses. And she was like, okay, I'm about to go get us something to eat. Peace, right? And, and she left. She left me. When I tell you, my wife knows the gospel. She's a great Bible teacher. She's a great disciple in her own right.
Mm-hmm. But I didn't feel this need to say, you know, the gospel, you should come along with me. Mm. As a matter of fact, she'll tell you that the way God has made her, she will be more of a distraction in a conversation like that. Didn't help. Mm. But the thing that encouraged me the most is after I left the conversation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, I came back.
Found my wife at the restaurant and I walk into the little restaurant in the airport and she's sitting there with the waitress, with her head out, praying with the waitress. Wow. And so they get done praying. My wife says, yeah, um, this waitress asked me, who am I ordering food for? She, I said, my husband.
She said, where's your husband? My husband over there talking to some Jehovah's Witnesses. She said, I used to be a Jehovah's Witness, and they excommunicated me from the church. I was done with religion ever since then. And my wife was able to share the gospel with her through that. So I say all that to say this.
My wife wasn't compelled to go look for a conversation like I was. Yeah. Right. Because that's not how God has made her. But she didn't stray away from the opportunity that God presented for her man. And so I think evangelism is not about being bold to do what men are afraid to do, but evangelism is about, and discipleship making is about obedience.
Yeah. It is not trying to be like a right comfort. Or, or even like a me like it is, how can God use me? How he has uniquely made me, and how can I be obedient when an opportunity is presented? Yeah. To not stray away from it. And so I think that if we thought about evangelism and discipleship, make it in that way, I think it would just free us up.
Yeah, I think so too. You know? Yeah, man, that's really good. What might come to mind first is like, oh, let me go get into an argument with somebody about religion. And, uh, yeah, I I don't think that's at all. I've, I've seen you do this like, because Jackie records you doing it. Uh, but I've seen you do it. Yeah.
And it's more about relationship. And I love what you said, like, why does somebody believe, and I think any, all of us can do that. Even the fact that Jackie at lunch said to that waitress, she cracked the door open by saying you were over there talking to Jehovah Witness. She could have just said. Oh, he's not here right now, but he'll be here.
Like I bet you, yeah. Even, even if it was subconscious, she tried to shift the conversation in some way to crack that door open and then you start to learn somebody's story. Yeah. And whenever you learn somebody's story, you just always get to know what their God is in some way. Mm-hmm. What is it that they worshiped good or worship or what has failed there?
That's really good and get good and to turn, we get to turn them to a better God. And uh, so often, oftentimes when I'm in, you know, an Uber or on the plane or whatever, like. For me, you know, 'cause I'm kind of in the fatherhood space. I always just try to bring up dad stuff. 'cause that's a super easy way to bring up like real pain or real joy sometimes.
Mm-hmm. But you can quickly learn like a lot about somebody's story by just talking about like their dad. I can be in an Uber ride and, and I can just, the way that I'll put bait out there, that sounds terrible. That's not not the right language, you know? But the way that I'll kind of like tease the conversation is I might just say something like, oh, I got that from my dad.
And it could be something lighthearted. Yeah. But then now we're talking about dads. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then I can just ask like, Hey, were you close to your dad or are you getting any traits from your dad? And now all of a sudden we just shifted the whole conversation from an Uber ride or a deli sandwich or airplane, whatever, to now we're talking about dads.
And now you just stepped a, a foot on the pathway of what could be a really deep and theological and fun spiritual conversation. You know what I mean? But that's good. And that, and, and that's actually way bigger than I, than some people might give credit. For, because, 'cause when you talk about things like that and you invite people into an intimate conversation like that, it's so important.
'cause one thing that I've learned is that people really don't care what you know until they know that you care. Totally. And so inviting them into a conversation where like, oh, like man, I feel seen. Heard. Mm-hmm. It is possible to build trust in a short amount of times. Mm-hmm. To get truth to somebody.
Mm-hmm. And so Jesus did it, and he came and modeled it. If Jesus modeled it for us, that means we can do it too. So, and if they're not a follower of Jesus, like they probably aren't having these kinds of conversations anywhere else. You know what I mean? Like I've, I've noticed people actually, it's refreshing to them that you're talking about something meaningful, like their family or their beliefs or, so, whatever it is.
But like a lot of people want to talk about stuff. They have no outlet to have these kind of conversations. And so when you, when you bring it up, in my experience, most people are actually, they don't shy away from talking. Most people wanna talk about themselves since everybody's favorite, favorite subject themself.
You know, most people wanna Yeah. Talking about it. Anyway, man, I could go on and on. I, I have so many more questions for you, but I'm running outta time. I wanna be respectful of your time, bro. I know you're busy, but man, this is good, dude. I'm, I'm grateful that you. You know, obviously you're doing the spoken word stuff, you got the podcast, you have so many ways that we can pick your brain, but I'm glad you you got a book out there now.
And I'll just say too, man, I don't wanna blow smoke, but both you and Jackie have had a profound impact on my spiritual journey. And so I just wanna thank you personally for what you guys are and your, your obedience to make disciples from afar. It's, it's helping me on my journey too. That's dope, man.
Thanks man. I'm, that's, it's an honor. It's a real honor. Seriously. Yeah, it's dope. Alright bro, well I appreciate you and your time. I'll have everybody go pick up a copy of your book, uh, when it comes out later this year, how to Tell The Truth by Preston Perry and get it wherever books are sold. Yeah, man.
Thank you bro. I appreciate you. Thank you, bro. Man. God bless you, bro. See you man.