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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Literary agent Bethany Saltman and bookstore owner Fran Hauser—also both critically acclaimed authors—host Bookbound, the podcast for non-fiction writers who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These how-I-did-it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story they can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:00:00]:
I had to write a thousand words a day, no matter what. Like, it didn't matter how bad they were, it didn't matter what time they happened. I had to write those thousand words. And so for a while, I did that. Especially on the days that I couldn't get any words done or I was unmotivated. And some days that would turn into 5000 words and some days I wouldn't even make the thousand right. But I just had to sit down and do that every day.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:21]:
My name is Bethany Saltman and I am an author and a bestseller book coach.
Fran Hauser [00:00:27]:
And I'm Fran Hauser. I'm an author, a keynote speaker, and a publishing strategist. These how I did it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own authority mindset and turn the story they can't stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:42]:
This is Bookbound, the podcast created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Fran Hauser [00:00:49]:
Welcome to the show, everyone. I'm so excited to introduce you to our guesthouse, Samhita Mukhopadhyay. She's the former executive editor of Teen Vogue and the current editorial director at the Meteor. Her writing has appeared in New York, the Cut, Vanity Fair, Vogue, the Atlantic, and the nation. We're talking to Samhita about her third book, The Myth of Making It, where she tells the story of her personal workplace reckoning and argues for a reimagining of work as we know it. Samhita talks with us about how she landed on this topic for her book and how vulnerable the writing process was for her. She also talks about the importance of not underestimating your authority and experience when pitching your book proposal. And I also loved hearing about how she continues to refine her marketing strategy based on feedback she's getting from readers.
Fran Hauser [00:01:43]:
There are truly so many wonderful and inspiring gems in this interview. So I'll let the conversation do the rest of the talking. Let's dive into our chat with Samhita.
Bethany Saltman [00:01:54]:
Hey, Samhita, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:01:58]:
It's so good to be here.
Bethany Saltman [00:01:59]:
So let's begin with our favorite question, which is, tell us about how you knew that this was not just something you were thinking about, obsessed with, concerned about, but was actually a book.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:02:15]:
Well, I had written an essay about the topic a couple of years ago where I, you know, I think coming out of the pandemic, there was this fairly vibrant conversation happening. I mean, it almost became a cottage industry about these, like, kind of girl bosses and what was happening with girl bosses and hustle culture. And I wrote the essay and I just had so much more to say than what I put in the essay. And I just felt that a lot of what I was reading on the topic was a little bit flippant, as we often are, about women's ambition. Either it's in or it's out. And it just felt like we needed a little bit more contextualization in terms of where we are in this moment. And I think I had this moment where I was like, yeah, someone should write that book. And then I was like, wait, I should write that book.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:03:05]:
And not because I have it all figured out, but because I was like, well, I have been doing this for 20 years, and we're working at Teen Vogue. I'm seeing this younger generation grappling with these questions, and I'm like, you know who else grappled with these questions? The feminists of the seventies and the eighties and the nineties. And there's this opportunity to kind of bring all of that together. And so, yeah, that's, I think, when I realized, and I had been working on another book, like I wanted to write, my father had just passed away, and I was writing a memoir about being south asian in the United States, and it just wasn't landing. It wasn't like, maybe I'll revisit that project at some point. And somebody suggested, have you ever thought about writing a book about the workplace? Because you have all this experience and you have this interesting insight. And that was the moment where I was like, okay, it's time to turn this into a book length project.
Bethany Saltman [00:03:54]:
I love that. And it's such great advice for our listeners that if they think something might be a book, try writing about it. An essay, an article, a sub stack, even social media posting, not just to see if people respond, but to see if you actually have more to say. I love that.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:04:13]:
Yeah.
Fran Hauser [00:04:14]:
And, Samhita, this is your third book.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:04:17]:
It is. Yeah, it is.
Fran Hauser [00:04:19]:
How did the process for this book compare to the other two?
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:04:23]:
I don't think I put as much pressure on myself for the other two. I mean, I think the first book was just kind of like, I was so early in my writing career, and I was just like, I'm writing a book. Like, someone's actually going to pay me. Like, they could have paid me $5, which is not far off from how much they paid me. And, you know, and I was just, like, just happy to be here, you know? And I think this book was a little bit more. And then the second book was an anthology, and so that was easy because I'm an editor and I was so excited about the people, like, the voices that we collate, that we curated. And it was really easy to promote that because I wasn't promoting myself. I was promoting all of these amazing writers that had come together.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:05:01]:
And, you know, so I think this was the first one that felt so it just felt high stakes in a way that the other books hadn't because it was so much of myself that I was putting out there. And as you both know, the industry's changed quite a bit in the last couple of years. So even 2017, when the last book came out, to now post Covid book tours are not what they used to be. A lot of media outlets have shrunk, and so there was just a lot of pressure, I felt like, to get the word out there in a way that even ten years ago, when my first book came out, it's like there were multiple publications that had columns that were dedicated to women's issues. We just literally don't even have that anymore in the same way. And so this felt a little bit more like I really had to just get out there, push it out there, make sure it was in all the right people's hands. And I don't remember ever feeling like that before. That used to be a little bit more like, if you build it, they will come.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:05:57]:
And this definitely felt like. I just felt like I had a lot on the line with it, which has been, as I'm sure you both know, an emotional and challenging process, but also an incredible one, so.
Fran Hauser [00:06:08]:
Well, it's interesting. I mean, with this book, compared to your other two books, it sounds like there was a lot more vulnerability required with this one because you were telling it's your personal story. Right. For starters. And then there's also vulnerability around the marketing and the selling of the book. So it kind of hits in, like, in both places.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:06:31]:
Yeah, totally. Like, when, you know, and, like, leave it to the cut to do this, but I had an excerpt going to the cut, and, you know, and it's like, the process for writing a book is so long, right? So it's like, there are pieces of this book. Like, I have journeyed the universe emotionally in the last three years. Like, I've experienced so many ups and downs. I've been through things. I've experienced grief. I've experienced joy. So, like, every part of this book was written in different moments.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:06:56]:
So, like, I kind of felt a little disconnected from, like, everything that was in the book because it's like, I'm not rereading it, right. Like, it's just like, you do it, and then you put it on the shelf and you move on. And so when the cut read the book, when the editors of the cut read the book and the excerpts they pulled out, I was like, oh, my God. Leave it to them to pick the most vulnerable part of the book that I'm, like, the most anxious about. That is, like, cuts, delay at the end of the book, and they're like, we love this. And I was just like, oh, my God, am I ready? And that was, like, the day before the book came out, and I was like, am I ready for this really vulnerable piece to go out where I, like, talk about failure and I talk about being fired? And I had never publicly talked about any of it and some mental health stuff, you know? So there was definitely a piece where I just felt, like, so naked and so vulnerable. And when other people do it, I'm like, yes, like, this is where the good stuff happens, you know? Like, I know it's hard. And I'm, like, always coaching writers to get out there and do it as an editor.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:07:50]:
And then all of a sudden, I was there, and I was just like, at one point, I was debating, like, I was like, maybe I should just pull it. Like, I don't. I don't think I can handle this. And so there was such a feeling of just like, yeah, it's in the book, but, like, who's really gonna read it? You know? Like, it's like. But now they're pulling it out, and it's like, every. And it was everywhere. Like, it was everywhere, which is great, right? But it was such a mixed feeling where I was like, all of the people involved are gonna read it. They're gonna know exactly who I'm talking about.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:08:16]:
Like, all of that was. It's kind of like that therapy appointment that is all of a sudden published. You know? You're just like, what? This is so vulnerable, you know? And I think that, like, the way that I do think, and this is part of why I wanted to write the book, is, like, a lot of women, I think, that are in my position where it's like, oh, you've had this, like, big, flashy job, and everyone's just like, how did you get there? And they just, like, want all this advice, and it looks so perfect on Instagram, or it's like you're living a dream. And to undo that and say, like, no, actually, it's been really messy and really hard. And, like, I didn't get all the things I wanted and to come forward and say that when my brand had been a certain type of feminist career, success was definitely, like, a hard space to step into.
Fran Hauser [00:09:01]:
You know, it was really interesting to read that you were very intentional about this not being a how to book, you know, about it, you know, not being prescriptive. And I was wondering what that conversation looked like with your agent, with your editor. Like, were they completely on board with that approach, or were they encouraging you to maybe go a little bit more prescriptive?
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:09:24]:
So everyone was unbelievably supportive in terms of my creative vision. What's interesting is, so I felt very strongly that it wasn't an advice book. And I think part of why I felt strongly about that, and I kind of detail this in the book, is I do think that a lot of the books that have come out about women and ambition, like, the lean in, like, the girl boss is very like, do this and you two can have it all, you know? And I was like, we need to stop telling women what else they can do. Like, these are systemic issues, and so there was no kind of, like, bite size perfect talking point. And, of course, everybody involved with promoting this book would have loved if there was something like that. Right? Like, to just be like, here's a thing that we could chew on. And I do think, like, press has struggled with, like, how to capture this book a little bit because it is, you know, I'm saying it's not a how to book. One of the interesting things that has come out of it, though, is that the second half of the book is a little bit how toy.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:10:20]:
Like, I have a lot of advice in terms of middle management, how to be a manager. And so now I'm kind of getting more comfortable in the advice piece of it because I do think there was something I'm just realizing is, like, I did have a little bit of discomfort in terms of just owning that I was an expert and that I did have advice for people. And nine times out of ten, like, the young women and the young managers that are coming to these events, they have advice questions. I mean, they have. And they're really important ones. And so it's been an interesting transition in how I've been marketing the book, where it went from just like, this is a feminist polemic to, like, well, actually, I do have concrete things to say about how to do diversity and inclusion and how to be a better middle manager. Like, it's funny. Cindy Levy, who I work with at the meteor, you know, obviously legendary editor, former editor, chief of glamour.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:11:07]:
We did an event together last night, and she has said this to me multiple times. She's like, you always say it's not an advice book. But she's like, this book is full of advice. And even if you didn't mean for it to be, it is actually kind of an advice book. So I've been sitting with that a little bit.
Bethany Saltman [00:11:21]:
Oh, my gosh.
Fran Hauser [00:11:21]:
Okay. So, you know what I love about this, too, is we always talk about the importance of feedback. As you're working on the book proposal, you're writing the book. But there's also this role that feedback plays when you're in the marketing phase. Like, you may end up deciding to change your marketing strategy based on what you're hearing, based on what you're seeing, the fact that you're now positioning it a little bit more as like, oh, no, there really is advice in here. You're allowed to do that. You can make that change. And I think it's really cool that you did that.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:11:55]:
Yeah, it's interesting because marketing is always a game, right? I think even as an editor, it's like you package a story and you pull out what you think is going to resonate the most with people. And that's really what we did with the book. You know, there's been so much talk about girl bosses and about workplace and quiet quitting and all of that. And naturally, I led with that because I was like, we're all frustrated with work, but it actually turns out that in some ways, I wouldn't say we moved on from that conversation, but that conversation has been happening for a while. And the stuff that's really sticking is like, what do we do about inclusion in the workplace? You know? And that really was like, there's a set of chapters in the book where I was, like, exploring it, but I really just thought that was only going to resonate with a certain group of people or it wouldn't translate the way that it has. And it turns out that's like, even in, when I've been doing events, those are the questions that people are asking in the audience. Those are like. It's like, oh, I'm a middle manager.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:12:53]:
I work in HR. I do. And it just never even occurred to me that I would. I mean, I'm so grateful because I think those are the people that are underserved in this space. But I never thought of myself that kind of writer because I think of myself as a feminist cultural critic. And I think the other thing is, like, books are love, right? Like, not like to say the obvious, but, you know, I think like, I do a lot of interviews for articles I write, and that's one point that I made. But this book has, like, any book, there's a lot of different pieces of it to pull out. And I've really been sitting with.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:13:23]:
And, you know, I'd be curious to know if either of you have ever struggled with this is, like, I think, because of the way that social media works and the way that when you write an article and it makes a splash in that moment, I think I was expecting a bit of a splash the same way, which I had. But I'm starting to realize the longevity of a project and the importance of that longevity that I think about my favorite books and I go back to them and I get something new out of it every time. And then I'm like, oh, right. We talk a lot about chapter one of all about love, but it's really chapter eight where she gets into, and that's something I've been thinking about, of the life cycle of a book and how it's so much more than that first launch moment. And that's been hard because I think that we have become so used to instant gratification. We want all of those clicks right away. We want all of those shares. We want to see that Amazon rank go up right away.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:14:15]:
And what does it actually look like? My partner's always like, it takes people time to get through the book. They have to read the whole thing. And I'm like, that's true. And then people aren't going to read it until the holidays or they're not going to read it until their summer vacation. And I think that's been a really interesting part of this process. To your point about redirecting the publicity efforts, it's like, yeah, it's gonna unravel, and there's gonna be different moments that I think will resonate in different ways. And that's an interesting thing to be sitting on.
Fran Hauser [00:14:47]:
Yeah, it's a long game. And the other thing, too, is it takes time for people to read it. It takes time for people to recommend it to others, and then they read it. Right. So my book, the Myth of the Nice Girl, came out of in 2018 six years ago, and I'm still hearing from women, like, six years later, they're posting about it on social media, and they're reaching out to me through my website. And you will, too, Samhita. You'll still be hearing from people years down the road. So I'm really glad you said that, because there is this misconception that it's like, okay, it's all about the launch.
Fran Hauser [00:15:22]:
It's all about the pre sales and then the first week, and it's just like a really, I think, unhealthy mindset to have. So I'm really glad you brought that up.
Bethany Saltman [00:15:34]:
Yeah, me too. I love the way you're talking about having a relationship with your book. Yeah, sure. It's a product, and a lot of us, we need to learn how to think about the book as a product and how to think about our creativity in the marketplace. That's really important. But I love the way you're talking about changing with the work, and I've never heard anybody talk about, because so many of us feel like, I don't want to write a prescriptive book. Like, I wrote a book. Strange situation.
Bethany Saltman [00:16:03]:
Like, no way in hell I'm going to have takeaways.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:16:06]:
No.
Bethany Saltman [00:16:07]:
No deliverables here. You know, like, this is a tome. This is a researched thing. And now I'm like, you know what? Someone asked me recently, if you could change one thing about the book, what would it be? And I said, I wish it was a little more useful. And I know that it's a deeply useful book, but there's something about getting maybe a little older. I love what you're saying, that we can move through different experiences of our own material and our relationship to our intellectual and commercial life. And what you thought wasn't something. That was just the idea of the polemic.
Bethany Saltman [00:16:43]:
You have something to say? And the idea that maybe we don't want to have takeaways because we don't think we are in a position to give advice that super interesting. And I know a lot of women specifically will resonate with that.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:16:59]:
Yeah, I mean, men are very comfortable writing advice books, even if they haven't had a job for more than a year. They're like, hell, I figured it out. And you're like, wait, what? And I feel like we constantly caveat. We're like, well, I haven't gotten five PhDs and 20 years of experience, and that's exactly the process I'm having. Where at first, I was like, who am I to speak on this? And I was like, wait, I am me. I'm the person to talk about this. If I don't feel confident after an almost 20 year career in feminist media, how do I expect young women to feel confident in their expertise, having only done something for one year? But I also feel like there is no shortage of advice books to make women feel bad about themselves. To, here's why you haven't lost the weight.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:17:44]:
Here's why you haven't found the partner. Here's why you haven't gotten the promotion. Here's why you're a bad mother. And so I think that was another piece of it where I was just like, I just don't think women need another book about what they could be doing better. Like, most of the women in my life are fantastic. They're doing the best they can. They are, you know, and so I was a little bit like, I have a problem with this industry. But totally, I think the point you're making is, like, when we talk about advice, it doesn't just have to be like, now open up your planner, and, you know, like, it could be philosophical advice or spiritual advice or, you know, whatever that might be.
Bethany Saltman [00:18:18]:
Exactly.
Fran Hauser [00:18:19]:
So we were saying earlier, Samhita, that we love the title and the COVID of the book. The COVID is gorgeous.
Bethany Saltman [00:18:27]:
Obsessed.
Fran Hauser [00:18:27]:
Yeah. So it's beautiful. Can you tell us a little bit about, was The Myth of Making It always the title, or how did you come up with the title? And, you know, sometimes there can be real tension with the publisher around the title, the COVID So give us a little bit of, like, a behind the scenes on that.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:18:46]:
So I was actually in a kind of informal writers group with two really good friends, and one of them was Philip Picardy, who was. He hired me at Teen Vogue and just a fantastic editor, fashion editor turned politics editor, and we were working on our manuscripts together, and he actually came up with the title. He had kind of been working on a project, and his, like, it didn't really fit for his project, but he was like, this is a great name. And then we kind of, like, weirdly swapped projects. Like, he ended up working on something that was, like, a little bit more spiritual. And I was working on this workplace book. And so he kind of named it and was like, you should use this for your book. And I was like, that is a, extremely generous, and b, I was still sitting with it.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:19:34]:
I was like, is that really what I'm trying to say? And so I came up with, like, 20 different versions of it, and, you know, pulled people and talked to the publisher, talked to my agent, and that was just the one that kept sticking, you know? And I think that that plus the sub head was, like, a really important combination. And so I had the working title from the jump. Like, I think with the proposal, I had a working version of that title or some version similar to it. And then the subhead was, like, much more recently, like, I want to say in the last year, we figured out the subhead, because I think I had started with something like, I have a master's in women's studies, so I feel like everything becomes, like, on girl bosses and feminism, you know? Like, it was, like one of those long, like, academic subheads, and then it finally landed. And so, yeah, the title came from the beginning. We played around a lot with the COVID I had a really clear vision of what I wanted. I knew I wanted something seventies, because I do think, like, I pay homage to the seventies feminists a lot, and that's just kind of my style of writing is this, like, look back at, like, what the godmother said and then come back to contemporary. So I wanted something that played with that.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:20:43]:
And then I really wanted pink because I wanted to, like, own the girl boss piece of it and say, like, we should not. Like, we keep saying we need to kill these elements of ourself, but really what we need to do is redefine them. And so the pink felt really good. And then I just am obsessed with green. Like, I'm a Taurus. Green is money. It's abundance. It's emeralds.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:21:03]:
Like, it's all of that. And so I felt really drawn to those particular colors. And so, yeah, like, there was a couple of different color stories, but that was the one that, like, I consistently. I was just like, this is my book. This is what the colors need to be. And everybody eventually agreed covers of all.
Bethany Saltman [00:21:21]:
Time, I would say. I absolutely love it.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:21:22]:
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I will say I did that thing where I pulled up the PDF on my phone, and I took my boyfriend to the bookstore, and I put each one on the bookshelf next to, like, the feminist books. And I was like, which is the one that really looks the best? And this was the one. There was, like, another version, I think, that was orange. That also felt good because it had a little bit of a south asian flair to it, and I liked that, too. But finally, the green felt right and also, like, reconnecting with nature. The idea of, like, I had put this mood board together, and one of them was that meme that's like, forget girl bossing. I'm girl mossing.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:21:57]:
And it's like an office chair covered in moss. This feels very, like, you know, nature green. Like, that all felt really good. So.
Bethany Saltman [00:22:08]:
Hey, Bookbound ones, if you're loving this interview as much as we are, we think you'll want to join us for this very special first of its kind. Read Like a Writer Book Club. What the heck is a Read Like a Writer Book Club? I'm so glad you asked. This idea came to us after working with so many aspiring authors who are still reading books like a reader. Liking this, not liking that. Instead of studying successful books for lessons and how to weave their own stories into clear structures or develop frameworks that really change people's lives. And we thought, hey, why leave so much learning on the table? Then we realized that we have this incredible archive of author interviews. Yes, this very podcast.
Bethany Saltman [00:22:49]:
And so we put it all together and said, hey, let's host a Read Like a Writer Book Club. This is how it works. For the low price of $175, we'll meet once a month over Zoom for seven months. Our meetings will take place on Wednesdays at noon eastern time. We'll give you a list of books related podcast episodes to review and a simple reading guide. We'll meet up and discuss together and in small groups. Fran and I are so excited to get started. We love reading.
Bethany Saltman [00:23:19]:
We love you guys. And we love studying books with other women. Sign up at bookboundpodcast.com we can't wait to see you there. So tell us a little bit about your proposal process. Have you had the same agent all along? How did that go?
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:23:36]:
Yes, I did. So I've been working with Sarah Burns since nasty women. She is amazing. And so I'm very blessed to have her as my fierce book Shepherdess, book Sherpa. And I think, like, we went back and forth in terms of what was the right angle for the book. And it's so interesting because a few people have reached out asking to look at the proposal, which I'm happy to do, but I didn't. To see the proposal and see how different the final product is is really something. And so I had an outline of some of the general topics I wanted to cover, and I had a really, really fleshed out introduction, which kind of ended up becoming a sample chapter that I was like, I know this is gonna live in the book somewhere.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:24:22]:
I just don't know where. But really, I think what I was trying to show is the breadth of what I was trying to say and why it was so important to say it in this moment. And I think, like, the biggest thing that changed is I started writing this proposal while I was working from home. Offices were closed. We hadn't even gotten our vaccines yet, right? And so we were really in this moment of just, like, rethinking. Like, not even rethinking. Like, we were traumatized, right? Like, we were literally in trauma. And so in some ways, that was great because it allowed me to be as creative as possible.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:24:53]:
But the circumstances of that changed very quickly. And so, like, a book about work in 2021 is very different than a book about work in 2023. And I think my pub date ended up getting pushed quite a bit. And so the version that it would have published in 2023 would have been very different than this version because it was very much, what are we going to do? You know? And it was very much about that moment of, like, working from home burnout with healthcare workers, educators, moms. And there's still a lot of that in the book. But I think the extra year really gave me the space to be like, okay, what happens now? Because, like, now, obviously, Covid is not over, but now we're having these conversations about, like, people going back to the office for three to four days a week or about quiet quitting or the great resignation, or now they're saying that the million mothers who disappeared from the workplace have come back stronger. Right? So, like, all of those things that we were in the set middle of kind of have changed. So the proposal kind of feels like a time capsule because it's like, you know, it's like, feelings that we had in that moment that were so specific to that moment that I don't think, like, we don't have a ton of moments in history that are that charged and that kind of, I think, traumatic in a lot of ways.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:26:05]:
So interesting.
Fran Hauser [00:26:07]:
When I think about this category, this, like, women and work category, I would say it's probably one of the most competitive categories in the nonfiction space. It's a crowded market. Right? There's so many books, and I'm so curious to hear how you positioned your book, how you and your agent kind of talked through that. How are we going to position this book so that it really stands out from all the other books that are out there?
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:26:35]:
I don't even know that we were that explicit about it. I think in the moment, it felt like, yes, it's a competitive marketplace, but there weren't a lot of people that could really speak to the intersection of feminism, capitalism, and, like, racial inequality. Right. And so it really did feel of the moment, because the first version of the proposal I remember is, like, this really long piece about everything that happened in 2020, right? The George Floyd protests, the big girl bus cancellations. And you have this moment that nobody really knows how to talk about because where, you know, all of the tools that we had had to historically talk about these moments were failing us. And a lot of newsrooms were like, oh, no. Whoops. Like, we have this, like, growing frustration in our society with injustice, and that hasn't been a beat, right? That hasn't really been a beat.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:27:30]:
And I was positioned in a really unique way because that had been my beat. It had been my beat for almost 20 years, and I had gotten the opportunity to work in newsrooms, and so I felt uniquely positioned. And I think that with the popularity of teen vogue, I think that that was just a big opportunity for me to kind of use that platform to say that, you know, it's great that teen vogue is political, but what does this actually mean in practice? And, you know, I think it was like, a bit of a perfect storm in terms of everything that was happening in that moment and what I had cultivated for myself, skill wise, in terms of being a reporter who had been working on these issues for a long time and someone who was committed to feminist theory and feminist history to help guide us forward. Because I think the other thing is, a lot of the books that are in this space tend to be either as we're talking about the kind of advice y book, like, it's like, go to Soulcycle and whatever, or memoir, like, deep memoir. And so it was really important for me to kind of do both, whereas this isn't a straight memoir. Right? Like, I have a lot of research, a lot of reporting, but I use my own stories and my own experiences to situate a lot of that. And so that felt like something different. And one of my favorite writers, who's also one of my best friends, Nona Willis Aronowitz, who wrote this book called Bad Sex, she had, like, a similar methodology.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:28:45]:
And that really inspired me to try and really think about, I mean, she is, like, really digs into, like, feminist sexual history and then pairs it with her own experiences. And it was really that style that I was like, oh, I really, like, inspired by this. And it's also, like how I like to write. And so that felt a little bit different for the space than, I think, other fantastic books. I mean, Jennifer Rommelini just put a new book out called Ambition Monster, and we have the same cover designer. I mean, it's literally like they're sister books to each other. And unfortunately, sorry, Jen, I haven't had a chance to read it yet. But my understanding is it's like, it's really powerful, but it's much more memoir based.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:29:25]:
And I think that that's also, like, really important. But I think what I was doing was a little bit different in terms of just trying to situate it within the context of workplace feminism and all of the kind of theories and things that have been written about it.
Fran Hauser [00:29:39]:
Well, you know, it's interesting, though, when you talk about, you know, we're talking about, how does a book proposal stand out? To not underestimate the importance of the authority, the experience that you bring to the table. Right. Because that's really what made this book proposal stand out. It was you. It was your experience, your authority. Your platform, I'm sure, was a huge selling point if I was an editor looking at this proposal. So just to not underestimate that, because I think a lot of us tend to underestimate ourselves.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:30:13]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I also like the kind of style of writing that I've always done. I think that if I felt like I had to think a lot about marketing the book, then it wouldn't feel authentic to what I was trying to do. Like, this felt very organic in that this was me. Like, this is who I am, and I wasn't acting like I was, you know, this was the most honest version of myself, which I don't even know if I can say for my first book. My first book was still very much like me, trying to put out a theoretical idea of what I thought I should be in terms of, like, you know, I mean, it's about, like, sex positive feminism and all of that, and. But it's not personal. And it's like I wrote an entire dating book with almost no personal anecdotes.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:30:52]:
Right. Like, I still had this kind of distance. And I think where I am today is that if it's feeling like I really need to. I have to figure out what category I fit into and how, then it's not really authentic to my own expression and my experience. Like, I think even if I tried to write a how to management book, that would have felt like, then I need to ask these bigger questions about where does this fit in and how do we market it. But this felt a little bit more like it's me. Either you like me or you don't like me. You know? There's not.
Bethany Saltman [00:31:22]:
Yeah, well, this idea of the hybrid is really the way of the world now. Like, 30 years ago, we had nonfiction. We had memoir. We had self help. We had how to. We had business books. That's sort of the heavy nonfiction. And now, and I think this is thanks to women writing a lot of these books, we are really complicating, problematizing, if you will, all of those genres, and it's a whole new world and so I think each writer really has the opportunity slash challenge of figuring out that tension, you know, how much of me, how much of research, how much advice, you know? And I think it can be really fun, but it's something that we don't talk about that much explicitly, but it's just kind of like, everybody thinks, like, oh, now I have to deal with this.
Bethany Saltman [00:32:09]:
But actually, this is what all nonfiction is about now, which I think is because women are writing so many amazing books.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:32:17]:
Absolutely. And it's a hard thing to pull off. Like, it's hard to go from, like, I'm sharing this really personal thing to like, okay, now let me pull back. And McKinsey reported in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know? And it's like, that back and forth was something I really struggled with because I was just like, and I am much more comfortable in the like. And McKinsey reported, like, I'm much more comfortable in that voice than I am in the like. Now, let me share the most humiliating thing that ever happened to me. And, like, you know, and so that that is something I really struggled with in the process of the book is like, how do you kind of bring that together and make it land? Because it can feel a little bit disjointed, whereas a straightforward kind of reported book or a straightforward memoir has a type of, whether we false or not cohesiveness.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:33:04]:
That I think I really was like, is this book even going to be cohesive? Or is it going to feel like you're just like, wait, 1 minute she's talking about girl bosses from 2014. The next minute she's talking about being a girl boss. So that was definitely something I had to work on to smooth out and worked with editors on to smooth out.
Bethany Saltman [00:33:22]:
Well, I think it was amazing. And when we do that well, I think it's more coherent, because that's what intellectual people do. They have an experience. They reflect on it using outside sources, and then they reflect back, and it's this iteration, you know, that's how good people live, in my opinion. So, yeah, did an amazing job. So tell us a little bit about your writing process. Like, are you get up in the morning and write, or how do you. How do you do that?
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:33:48]:
I. Yes, I'm a get up in the morning type. I think I had different moments for different parts of the book. I think that when I had to do, like, the more emotional memoir style writing of the book I had, I was lucky enough to get two months with Ep McDowell, which is a fellowship in New Hampshire. So I mean, it was terrifying because I was in a cabin in the woods by myself in the dead of winter at the height of COVID It was like, that's crazy experience. But I actually like, you know, I always call that like my process of unraveling where I, there was, you know, this book took about three years to write and there was a six month period where I actually was able to just work on the book and not work on anything else. And that is like the biggest gift and the biggest dent in my savings and. But it was so worth it.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:34:36]:
So I think the, like, really memoiry pieces and the more, like, more challenging to write stuff happened at that time where I was pretty much writing, like doing six to eight hour writing days, or at least I had a following. Jamie Attenberg's advice via one of my editors, Megan Carpentier, of like, I had to write a thousand words a day, no matter what. Like, it didn't matter how bad they were, it didn't matter what time they happened, I had to write those thousand words. And so for a while I did that, especially on the days that I couldn't get any words done or I was unmotivated. It was like, it doesn't matter what happens today. Like two pages. That's it. And some days that would turn into 5000 words and some days I wouldn't even make the thousand right.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:35:17]:
But I just had to sit down and do that every day. And then when I was working, I usually work like four days a week. And then I save one day just for writing or editing. And then when I'm on deadline, I do like a 05:00 a.m. shift. So I write from like 05:00 a.m. to 08:00 a.m. so it really, it really depends on where I am in the process.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:35:36]:
But I will say this was the first time where I really saw the value of taking time off to focus. I think that I spent a lot of my career just always wishing for that time because I'm always working, I always have a job, and I'm writing on top of it. And I've been very jealous of people that have the space to just write. And this time I saw the value in both. I think that working while I was writing it, especially because I was writing a book about work, was really good because things were happening in the workplace that was informing what I was doing in the manuscripts. But then really having that six month period where I could just get my feelings down on paper, get the ideas down and allow myself to be vulnerable, messy, and also just realizing when you write something emotionally, you need some downtime after it. You can't just be like, no, I'm going to walk into a Zoom meeting. It's like, no, I need to go be alone and eat something and go for a walk or whatever that might be.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:36:31]:
I guess I don't have one process. It was different processes for different points.
Bethany Saltman [00:36:36]:
I love it.
Fran Hauser [00:36:37]:
Can you talk a little bit about the structure of the book?
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:36:40]:
Yeah. So I had a structural editor that helped me because I think that structure was the thing that I struggled with the most in two different ways. The first is, as an editor, it's very hard when you're in an editor brain, everything is structure. So you're just like, outline first. Right. So I really struggled with going from outline to creator to say, like, because when, you know, as an editor and an editorial director, I'm always looking at a full project. I'm saying, here's the full project, and here are all the pieces that need to make it happen. And that was just not working for this book.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:37:16]:
Like, I had outline after outline after outline, and the words were not coming. And then one of my friends, who's a fiction writer and teacher, creative writing teacher, she was like, you kind of need to pull all of that away and just sit down and, like, let something inspire you and write some words about that. Watch a movie and write something about it. You know, read a book and write a response to it. And I was like, what? So I kind of shifted direction. So I had what I thought was a really clear outline, and then I just started writing. And I just started writing and writing and writing. And I basically tried to see it as a series of small essays where I said, okay, now this is the category.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:37:52]:
Girl boss. Like, write an essay about girl boss. Category. Lean in. Write an essay about lean in category. I worked for Anna Wintour. Write an essay about Anna Wintour. Right? So it was like, when I moved away from that, then I lost all sense of structure, and I was like, I don't know where this begins or where this ends.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:38:08]:
Like, I literally just have all these words, and I have my version of what I think is the best way to tell this story. And so then I actually worked with a structural editor who helped me kind of reshape the book. And so the middle of the book was originally the start, actually. And then she had the idea to move the history parts to the beginning to really give this foundation of, like, here's where we are in feminist workplace history, and here's how we got to where we are. And then I really struggled with where to put some of the stuff around management and being a woman of color in the workplace, because it felt a little bit like I was like, is this two different books? But then that kind of naturally came towards the end because that was also later in my career. And so it kind of made sense. And I made sure to put pretty early on the, like, everybody wants the Anna Wintour job interview story.
Fran Hauser [00:38:57]:
Right.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:38:57]:
You know, that kind of stuff that was, like, I knew would be, like, little treats throughout that I. That I tried to infuse. But, yeah, no, I really like structure, I think is really hard. Like, some people are just, like, naturally good at it. But I think what we think when we want to share a story versus how we perceive that story or digest that story is not always the same thing, and especially when it's something you know a lot about. So you're making assumptions, but you're like, well, everybody knows this. And it's like, no, actually, most people don't know this. Right.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:39:26]:
So you have to really hand hold that, walk them through that.
Bethany Saltman [00:39:30]:
That is true. Yeah. We just spoke with someone yesterday or the day before. We talked about thinking about her book as ten term papers, and just, like you said, essays, and she was like, I can do that. It's so good to just, like, make it accessible and a little bit sized. And we talk about there are two kinds of writers, the planners and the pantsers, like, by the seat of your pants. But what you're saying, and I think that this is so true, you need to be both at different times. You can't get caught on one or the other.
Fran Hauser [00:39:59]:
Yeah, yeah. It's such a gift to be able to pull in an expert whenever you can put it. Look, whenever you can pull in somebody who, like, they have deep expertise in an area that you're struggling with. I mean, how amazing is that? It's just such an important piece of advice, I think, for everyone who's listening. Like, you don't have to do it all by yourself.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:40:19]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, I was blessed, and I was able to make investments in this, but I think there are smaller ways to do it, too, like writing groups, getting trusted friend readers. The first half of my acknowledgement is literally just people that read the book for, like, just, like, at different points where, you know, and I'm. I've never been one of those writers that's very precious about, like, I'm very open to feedback, sometimes almost to a fault, maybe, like, I should be like, no, that was good. I should just sit with that. But, yeah, I was. I was very blessed to have the resources to be able to bring people in that could support me in the process. And that's not to say, you know, I think different people focus on different pieces of the process.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:40:58]:
Like, some people invest in publicity or they invest in social media or. But for me, I have always been one of those people where it's really important to me that the words on the page are an accurate expression of what I'm actually trying to say so that they're not misconstrued. I was like, this feels important in that there's a lot of ways to misinterpret what I'm saying. There's a lot of ways to neatly, especially in this moment of calling out people on social media, it's very easy to just pull a sentence and be like, look at this clown and what she wrote, and then also just watching. Every woman that's written about women and ambition and hasn't just trashed women gets destroyed. Including Sheryl. Including Sheryl Sandberg. We may not agree with that book, but the way that she was attacked, just for suggesting that perhaps women could get to the top if they, you know, like, just for suggesting it.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:41:49]:
And so I think I was very self conscious about that. Like, I was like, I don't have, like, I'm thin skinned and I'm immortal. Like, I'm not. You know, I don't have a ton of resources. I don't have a huge infrastructure behind me. I don't know if I will withstand people pulling apart what I say. Should it not be as tight as I want it to be? And so it felt really important to invest in and get support from, like, experts, people who are experts at storytelling and structure and literally down the line.
Bethany Saltman [00:42:15]:
Editing, which is saying a lot, because you are a professional editor. So thank you for coming and sharing your wisdom and experience with us, because that's what we want this podcast to be, a free resource for people to learn from, people like you who have been through this process and are writing amazing, amazing books and who maybe can't afford to work with, you know, an expert or something. But so you're really helping all those people out there today.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:42:43]:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Bethany Saltman [00:42:45]:
Yeah.
Fran Hauser [00:42:45]:
Samhita, thank you so much for joining us and let everyone know what's the best way to stay connected with you?
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:42:50]:
Social media. I am on Instagram and LinkedIn, and I don't really check Twitter, so not there, but Instagram and LinkedIn. I am the Samhita on all platforms.
Fran Hauser [00:43:04]:
Perfect. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
Samhita Mukhopadhyay [00:43:07]:
Thank you both. This was a great interview. I appreciate it.
Bethany Saltman [00:43:12]:
Thank you for joining us on Bookbound.
Fran Hauser [00:43:14]:
If you like what you heard, please subscribe and rate and review us on your favorite podcast listening platform.
Bethany Saltman [00:43:21]:
Please visit us at bookboundpodcast.com for more on us and how we work with authors.