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Our podcast features special guests and leaders discussing the many projects, partnerships, and innovations driving hydrogen adoption — starting in the Edmonton Metro Region, and expanding outward to Alberta, Canada, and the World.
Edmonton Region Hydrogen HUB is a collaborative initiative dedicated to advancing a thriving hydrogen economy in the Edmonton Region and beyond. Bringing together municipalities, industry, and associations, the HUB focuses on building a robust hydrogen value chain through collaboration, system integration, and policy advocacy. Leveraging the region’s world-class hydrogen production facilities and strategic infrastructure, the HUB drives innovation, promotes decarbonization, and stimulates economic growth, positioning the Edmonton region as a global leader in sustainable hydrogen development.
Welcome to the Hydrogen Two Point o podcast where Alberta's energy story evolves. Join us as we explore what's changed, what's working, and what's next from Edmonton to beyond. Here's your host, Kessia Kopecki.
Kessia:What does it take to move hydrogen from trial to market and decarbonize fleets, not just in pilots, but actually on the ground and across the Edmonton region and even beyond. I'm with two people here that are gonna help us answer that, looking at a long standing relationship and partnership between Diesel Tech Industries and the city of Edmonton. I'm here with Heidi Hicks from the City of Edmonton and Rebecca Goldsack from DTI Diesel Tech Industries. Thank you both so much for being here today.
Rebecca:Thanks for having us.
Heidi:Thanks for having us.
Kessia:I'm going to jump right into this. Like I mentioned, you have a very long standing relationship between the two of you, probably existent for as long as the Edmonton region hydrogen hub has existed, and I'd love to just start with a little bit of scene setting about that relationship. How did this partnership between DTI and Edmonton begin, and what were you trying to solve with this, project that you're working on?
Rebecca:This is a a great story because it actually started with the hydrogen hub one point o. So it was being incepted in Edmonton, and part of what they were initially trying to do was put tech companies, and fleets together, to kind of see what the problems are, see what solutions could be, circumvented. And that's ultimately, you know, what started our conversation with the city of Edmonton and got us to where we are today. So it's it's been an exciting journey. I actually heard recently that apparently Heidi and I have had 1,300 emails go back and forth over the last few years.
Rebecca:So we've we've had come a long way.
Heidi:Had a lot of conversations. Yeah. Just on that note. So the city of Edmonton is always looking to advance technology and innovation. So, well, four or five years ago, we were approached, as Rebecca mentioned, and, we actually had four or five companies pitch their technologies to us.
Heidi:So at that time, obviously, we were looking at our fleet mix and trying to understand, you know, what's on the market, what could we bring in, maybe some different technologies than what traditionally we've had in the past. So DTI was one of the pitches, and, they are Edmonton based, so that was a big draw for us. We wanted to also support local businesses and just the partnership developed from there.
Kessia:How has this partnership between the two organizations evolved over the years? When we're looking at, you know, initial conversations and now looking at probably closer to the deployment side, Can you give me a little bit of a story about that journey? Heidi, would you like to go first?
Heidi:Sure. I mean, I think as Rebecca can probably attest, I would say the collaboration is is the biggest piece. I mean, there's a lot of back and forth, obviously, on the product, how it's developed, you know, what the client needs are, and there's a lot of iterations. I think that's super important. So, you know, going into these partnerships, if you're starting something like this with, you know, a vendor or an OEM, I I think that's a big one, the relationship piece first.
Heidi:You need to be working with somebody that is willing to flex and bend also to your needs. You know, with scope, scope's a big deal, you can't have the world. But I think what I love about our partnership and our working relationship is that there's quite a bit of back and forth on how we improve the technology. So where it started from, like, four or five years ago is not what we have in place really today. Right?
Heidi:And that was I would say that's more not on the the the technology itself, but on the testing and the research and, you know, how it interacts with the equipment to get the best performance we can get. Because at the end of the day, we are serving the client's needs, and we're serving the city of Edmonton. So we want as less downtime as possible, and that's our goal. So behind the scenes, there's a lot of back and forth and a lot of meetings to make that happen.
Rebecca:You know, it it's it's really that partnership and that collaborative effort. You know, example of that would be we had released our first version of the user interface system that the operator has. And some of the feedback that we got is, k. Can you make this even simpler for our fleet, you know, our operators to be able to use? So it's just that back and forth of like learning how they do things, how we do things, and really coming together towards that that carbon goal.
Rebecca:You know, I myself am a born and raised Edmontonian. So, you know, to be able to see our technology out, you know, in Edmonton roads, you know, makes our entire team extremely proud, you know, that we've we've been able to get to where we are today. And it's really that collaborative effort that has really allowed us to get there.
Kessia:Rebecca, for anybody that's listening that maybe isn't too familiar with your innovations and the technology that you're providing with this partnership, can you tell us a little bit about what this dual fuel technology is?
Rebecca:Yeah. So this is the Guardian Hydrogen Diesel Dual Fuel Technology. So what it is is it's a multiport injection system that allows for hydrogen to go into a traditional diesel engine, and it runs, depending on the load and the duty cycle, hydrogen to replace that that diesel molecule. And we really say that it's a cost effective now solution towards decarbonization because one of the things that we hear all too often is, you know, range anxiety and the availability of the hydrogen molecule. And so the nice thing about this is that if there's not hydrogen available, you're still running on diesel, and ultimately, you're going to, you know, reduce your GHGs in that cost effective way.
Kessia:Heidi, for context as well, for anybody that's maybe not familiar, When we are looking at d DTI's technology and how it's applied to your fleets, what is Edmonton's vision with hydrogen for its fleets?
Heidi:Well, we're looking at a range of technologies that support our fleet. So and and dual fuel is a great one. You know, we're looking at we have fuel cells, so we have dual fuel technology. You know, we have electric vehicles. So so we we've got a mix based on what we need.
Heidi:I I think the the thing that attracted us to the DTI dual fuel technology is that you've gotta transition between, you know, where you need to get to and where you're going. So in order to, you know, consume and bring these types of technologies in your fleets, you need the infrastructure. You need the standards, safeties, and codes in place. You need the budget to support the transition, and you need the OEMs to be prepared to have the product online. And you also need the fuel, and not only the fuel in Edmonton, but the supply chain to support the range as Rebecca mentioned.
Heidi:So for instance, if you're, you know, you're testing hydrogen, you're running on hydrogen, we're measuring what the benefits from a climate change, GHG emissions reduction perspective is. If you need to switch back to diesel, that gives us a very you know, there's a lot of leverage and flexibility there. Now to go out and purchase some of these vehicles today can be very costly just to test those type of models. So it to me, it's really a transition between, you know, looking at your medium, long term plans in order to see if the technology is is what's required for your business.
Kessia:So when we're looking at the the journey of this partnership of this project between the two organizations, where do you think you are in that journey from beginning to end?
Rebecca:So this project has been work been working on for the last couple years. So far to date, we have given delivery of a waste and transit bus, both to the city of Edmonton. Both of those applications have Cummins ISL engines in them, which is actually a very common engine, within a lot of municipal fleets, but especially with the city of Edmonton. So what we are doing now is the the testing. So we've given it back to them.
Rebecca:They are now doing their regular routes. They will be demonstrating that this technology works in the winters and the summers with the different load cycles and test cycles. And and ultimately, we're we're in the data gathering stage for the project. So over the next, you know, three months, six months, the next year, there's a lot of data that's being collected within the DTI system. We collect over a million data points a day.
Rebecca:So all that data is going to be then given back to the city and, you know, that's going to help them, you know, from an administrative perspective to see what their DHT reduction was, what the costs are associated with this and ultimately it's going to really help, you know, validate, you know, what works, what doesn't work, and ultimately, it's gonna give us the results that we need for this project.
Heidi:You know, I'll just add to that. So really, we're in proof of concept, I would say. You know, we were chatting the other day about, you know, when electric vehicles, what, came on the marketplace twenty years ago or maybe even prior to that. And and so I think both Rebecca and I reflect and say, thought this would go a lot faster probably than it has. But once you get into it, you realize, you know, you're really developing a product.
Heidi:The technology, I would say, isn't is maybe the the easy part. It's all the integration points as Rebecca touched on and setting yourself up for success and and learning really what else you didn't know along the journey. That's been a big one.
Kessia:Speaking of, when we're looking at lessons learned and the some of the challenges that you've mentioned, are there any lessons that might be maybe presenting good opportunities for you now as you approach later stages in this?
Heidi:Well, I'll just point out is, I think, something that's been a huge accomplishment for all of us as partners in this project is that the hydrogen fueling station is up and running, and we're providing supply to a lot of our partners. So, you know, a couple years ago, we were talking about how do we get supply? How do we supply hydrogen? So we may we maybe had the technology and we had the fleet in place, but then there was, you know, ups and downs with with whether the that was purity or just being able to access it. There was a whole bunch of different reasons.
Heidi:So working with AZOLO, it's been very successful, and we've had a great turnaround with the fueling station, and it and it's a great thing to be able to offer that and and support anybody that's in this space, really, that's involved in the project. I think from the project learnings is really now tapping into you've got supply at the municipal level, but we really need to work on that supply chain across, you know, Canada, Edmonton. There's a couple stations in in BC. What does that look like? So that then on the vehicle diversity side, we can have the OEMs and manufacturers keeping up with, you know, selling the product.
Heidi:So customers need to know that the supply is there, and there's and the OEMs need to know that the demand's there. So so that's a big piece of the puzzle. We also are, you know, walking through what are the standards, practices, codes for having hydrogen in your facilities. If you need to park your fleets inside, what is that, you know, what does that look like? Just some new CSA standards came out, so everybody's, you know, getting together and collaborating on what exactly does it mean?
Heidi:How can we use it? You know, what are the costs of that in a facility that's already in place? If you're building a new facility, well, then you can start adding these standards and codes to, you know, your common practices as you go forward. Rebecca, I'm thinking you probably got a few other ones that you can add.
Rebecca:Oh, I I could give you a a laundry list of the the learnings that we've we've had with these projects. But, you know, from us, from a a high level, it's really what you think a vehicle should and could do and then getting it into the the real world. So, you know, you think of a I'll give the example of a a garbage truck. You know, we can test and validate and make sure that everything works, but when we then give it to back to the city and say, go on your route and do your daily cycle, well, know, then you've got, you know, your winter conditions, you've got a load on, and it's just it all kind of encompasses into, you know, those different learnings that we've had. So making sure that we're optimizing the hydrogen to diesel displacement.
Rebecca:Even simple things like, you know, in the beginning of, you know, making sure that these these vehicles are are, in good running order, before we even even start, any application. So those types of things, that we've had learnings, and it's really that collaboration. So it's in in hydrogen, we hear about chicken and egg all the time, but it it really becomes, you know, the whole farm that we need. And it's, you know, in this in the city of Edmonton, you know, it's all these different partners working together, the fleet, the supply, the technology, the different technologies and how they all interact with each other, you know, with the dual fuel, you need industrial grade hydrogen, not fuel cell grade hydrogen, you know, all those little things that are a little bit different, you know, the tanks that dual fuel use are three fifty bar, whereas like a Mirai uses 700 bar. So there's just so many different things that are all coming together.
Rebecca:You know, you talk about like a heavy duty technician, you know, as Haidoo was saying about the regulations. So it's just all these different things that all kinda have to come together. And, you know, there's been a lot of things that have worked really well, and there's also been a lot of things that we have learned that we can optimize through these projects. But at the end of the day, you know, we, as this entire city of Edmonton, you know, I'm I'm super proud that we have been able to overcome these challenges and are obviously continuing to learn on them, but then we're able to take this business model and say, hey, guys, you know, if you're in a different jurisdiction, here's, you know, some of our learnings. This is what works.
Rebecca:This is what doesn't work. You know, I I always say, and I I get sometimes I get a little slack for it, but, you know, when when we went out and we started in the dual fuel space, I thought long haul class eight, that's what I'm going after. Turned out that was actually the fourth application that we ended up retrofitting with our our system because what actually is a lot easier to do is return to home base. Right? It's those fleets that, you know, go out during the day and come home at night because that's where we're gonna get the supply, you know, mitigated as much as possible.
Rebecca:So these municipal fleets, that that's a perfect example of where we can kinda come together. And then, you know, we've been very fur very fortunate where, you know, the city got their Azola site up and running, and then they were able to add other partners and other organizations that also had a hydrogen vehicle, and they're now able to, use that that facility to fill their vehicles. So it's ultimately increasing the demand requirements, which is ultimately going to help demonstrate that this this system and this ecosystem can work.
Kessia:That leads me to my next question. It's a perfect transition. What does all of this tell us about where hydrogen and where this technology dual field technology is heading next? Heidi, I'd love to hear from you first.
Heidi:I think it's important that, you know, it's a necessary balancing act between technology readiness, investment, and achieving your proof of concept. I'd say for myself and probably our team in general, one thing that we've really learned is that it does take a lot more time than what I even thought. So from a client perspective, obviously, they're giving up their fleet for us to test drive the product to see if it works. Really, they're they're just you know, they're thinking, when am I gonna get my truck back? How come you've had it for so long?
Heidi:So I think if you're getting involved in this, that's a really good concept to consider is the time frame and the research and development involved in the back and forth as Rebecca and I mentioned about. Really, you know, you're on a journey. Right? It's it's it's developing something. It's testing it.
Heidi:It's making sure it works. There's a lot of back and forth, not only on the technology piece, but then on the operator experience. Right? And, you know, can you meet your service deliveries? So that's one piece.
Heidi:We've also had quite a few changes, market volatility, right, with pricing, a lot of government changes, whether it's at the federal world politics level. So that's that's really shifted the demand and supply commitments that we've had to deal with. Demonstrating, validating that it works. I think Rebecca spoke to that, the research and development, and then just the policy itself on making sure that we're safely, you know, putting this in place and, you know, we can mature and advance in this space. I'm not sure if that answered the question that you asked, though.
Kessia:That answers it perfectly. Rebecca, do you have anything else you want to add to this? Again, the question was kind of around with all of this and your experiences, what does that tell you about where hydrogen is going next?
Rebecca:You know, I find this question so interesting because I I'll give the the example. I went, to Ottawa a cup it was probably eighteen months ago, and I went into a conservative caucus meeting and that that conversation I I kinda went like, going into it going, oh, shit. They're gonna say no to hydrogen. Like, this is not what they're interested in. And it was so interesting because they actually were a 110 in on hydrogen, but their reason and rationale was completely different because, ultimately, they're trying to figure out how do we diversify our economy, how do we create jobs, and, you know, how do we get to the next next level with this?
Rebecca:You know, where some other governments might say, oh, no. We're doing it because of, you know, GHG reductions. So at the end of the day, you know, this is creating you know, as we've said before is, you know, we're creating a whole new hydrogen ecosystem. So, you know, while we have been able to make huge gains, you know, in in Edmonton, you know, if you actually, you know, plot out what we've been able to accomplish in the last four or five years, it is actually very incredible to see. But we also understand it is a a race and not a sprint, and that, you know, there's lots lots to do, but, you know, being able to kind of roll up our sleeves and and get get into it, you know, that that's ultimately what's gonna get us there.
Heidi:That will come once, you know, we do demonstrate the proof of concept and we do have the research to, you know, decipher how the products are working in the favor of the business. You know? So from an infancy stage, we're still, you know, at the beginning of that. Right? And to Rebecca's part point, we've made a lot of gains.
Heidi:Like, just even have a feeling a feeling source that's, you know, guaranteed and to be working with people that make sure that it's functioning properly and it's available. I mean, couple years ago, we just didn't have that. So I think just being focusing on the fueling station itself, I think, you know, testing the products and looking at the innovation and improvements is is gonna take a while.
Kessia:Yeah. There's one less obstacle in the way now with the fueling station for sure. If we're thinking of other jurisdictions, maybe there's another innovator out in the world or another municipality that's trying to do a partnership and advance hydrogen deployment, maybe maybe in Canada, maybe across the world. What's some advice that you would give to somebody that start is starting out where you were five years ago?
Rebecca:From from my perspective, you know, I think that being agile to what's happening. So it is not a perfect, science. And this is where, once again, I I talk about dual fuel and the fact that, you know, if we don't have hydrogen available, you run on diesel. So operation logistically, that becomes a nice feature for a lot of fleets to be able to, you know, keep their existing assets. Another thing is obviously the cost of, you know, a fuel cell vehicle.
Rebecca:It can be very cumbersome whether you're a fleet or a private carrier. So those are a couple of key things is cost and then time. You know, Heidi said a couple of times here, you know, what we think for time, you know, in a perfect world that that's what we anticipate for time. But there is things, you know, I've I've not with the Citi project, but I've done another project where, you know, they have so many assets in their fleet and they ended up having an accident with one of them and they couldn't be without. So that ultimately delayed our project six months because they had to have another asset.
Rebecca:And so, you know, kind of the roll with the punches, you know, philosophy with with this because somehow nothing is going to go, you know, according to plan. But at the end of the day, you know, it's it's very exciting to see what we have been able to accomplish. So it's it's really that collaborative partnership. And I have said that all too many times this this podcast, but, you know, that's ultimately you know, if if an organization's going to be, nope. This is the way we do it and not, you know, be willing to flex at all, then it's it's just not going to work from any party.
Heidi:Heidi? Yeah. I can comment on that. I think flexibility and timing and communication. So if I think of timing, your initial scope of your project is definitely subject to change.
Heidi:And so it's rapidly evolving, and this could be at your municipal level, provincial, globally, the landscape shifting beneath your feet all the time. And so your budgets may only support, you know, an infinite time for your project, and so you really need people on board that are gonna understand the flexibility and agility required to do this. So for instance, you know, my experience is I had a lot of leads on heavy fleet for hydrogen. You know, I was very excited, and then all of a sudden, you know, the companies went bankrupt or they changed their direction based on, you know, what's happening in, based on policies or funding or whatever it is. So I think at the leadership level, it's really important to have the support to make sure that everybody understands that there's a lot of changes and shifts, and so just have to be flexible about how we're supporting the model overall to make this happen.
Heidi:Because real really, to me, it's the research and development. Yeah. You're you're building your landscape for what you're going to need in the future.
Kessia:Speaking of supports and what we need in the future, I think maybe this will be a a good thought to leave everyone with. What do you see that needs to be in place in order for projects like this to succeed, in order for more of them to come about, in order to reduce those timelines, whether you're looking at it internally or as a lesson learned for people listening or maybe a call to action for those externally that should be maybe involved? What kinds of things should be in place? And, Heidi, do you wanna start with that one?
Heidi:Well, I'm I'm going in between, I think, of my technicians that need training and development, you know, working with Nate and U of A right now to make sure that we're training our our new grads and our existing employees so that they do have the skill sets if if we're bringing this these new types of fleets into our fleets, then, you know, how are we training our and developing training really to support the growth of those individuals? And right now, you know, we're just at the cusp of that. So my ask would be if that you're a vendor, OEM, we really need help in that space to start building those programs out to support the evolution of this. The other big one would be the supply just across, you know, whether it's Canada, Alberta, BC, Saskatchewan. What does that look like?
Heidi:Because the municipalities can only do so much internally working with, you know, the stakeholders that we work with today. I think we need some bench strength on, you know, what what does that look like? There's been a lot of discussion around what that looks like. You know, we're in a partnership, at least, with our mobile fueling station, but, you know, is there support for getting those fueling stations in place so then the OEMs can produce the product and they have a guarantee that, you know, there's supply to fuel those vehicles.
Rebecca:And I would say there's, from my side, there's two two key things, both federally and provincially, to create a bit more certainty on the direction of hydrogen. So, you know, as Heidi was just alluding to is so that investment into projects are a little bit more have some more substance to them. And then the second thing I would say is, incentives to help with the cost of hydrogen, today. So things like, you know, I always say whether there's one truck or 50 trucks fueling at a station, it costs the same to have that facility there. So, obviously, if you're filling more vehicles, it's obviously going to bring down the costs associated with having these vehicles fueled.
Rebecca:So, you know, whether it is on the the cost per molecule side or an incentive for fleets for the the cost of a a retrofit and supporting that part of it or that piece of it would be two key things that we are actively working with both the federal and provincial governments on. And, I mean, there there is some exciting news coming. I know Ontario has in the month of February, they have a innovation, fund specifically on hydrogen that they've announced. You know, Alberta has, ERA money, and they've obviously been a huge advocate of, you know, hydrogen. But it's really as we're talking about a lot of these projects, they're very much project focus, and we need to start thinking today about how do we actually get that to a commercially viable product so that we can actually use these vehicles as a mainstay.
Rebecca:I mean, at the end of the day, I want as many hydrogen vehicles as we possibly can. Also understanding that, you know, we're not a one size fits all that, you know, some vehicles might be better on EV. Some vehicles might be better on, you know, dual fuel, some might be better on fuel cell. But at the end of the day, we wanna make sure that we've got a good cross section of vehicles, and have these alternative fuels as an option, for fleets to be able to use.
Kessia:That's the ultimate goal, right? Make that technology accessible and available and ready to deploy. Thank you so much, both of you, Rebecca and Heidi, joining today on Hydrogen two point zero. It's an absolute pleasure. And I really loved this conversation and getting a chance to sit down and help share a little bit more light on all the work that you guys are doing in the Edmonton region and how it's gonna not just impact the Edmonton region, but really broadly across Canada, it seems.
Kessia:So thank you. That's it for today's episode of hydrogen two point 0. If you are looking to learn more about the Edmonton region's hydrogen economy, learn more about the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub, or get in touch with us, you can visit hydrogen.ca or send us an email at hello@hydrogen.ca. Also, feel free to follow us on LinkedIn, the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub, to stay up to date on all the news and all the activities happening in our hydrogen economy.