Alright. We're gonna go ahead and get started now. Alright. My name is Jeff. I'm one of the pastors at Redeemer Community Church and we are so glad that you are here with us tonight for our 3rd and final talk back of the summer.
Jeffrey Heine:The Talkback format is pretty simple. This, first hour, we're going to have a time of teaching that we're going to take about a 10 minute break, come back together for what is always my favorite part of a talk back, and that is the talk back section. That that's the time where there's q and a. And so, as the the talk is going, in this first hour, be sure and, you know, write down your questions if you're taking notes, or, repeat it to yourself over and over again. So that, when we get going with that second hour, you'll be ready with some some questions to ask, for Joel Busby.
Jeffrey Heine:So our speaker tonight is Joel Busby. He recently joined the Redeemer staff as the planting pastor. He and Mandy are gonna be planting, a new congregation on the west side of Homewood, next year. So if you haven't had a chance to meet, Joel or Mandy, tonight afterwards, would be a great opportunity for that. So if you would, join me in welcoming Joel Busby.
Speaker 2:Hey, I wanna tell you guys thank you so much for taking the time tonight to be here. It means a lot to me personally that you would invest like this. It means a lot to our church body, that you guys would be a group of people who care about engaging, issues and and tonight difficult issues. I said this, I think, last time I preached, but I just wanna say it again. Mandy and I wanna just tell you guys thank you so much for, in the last month, how warmly you guys have received us into this church community.
Speaker 2:It's been awesome. I mean, we've had invitations to come eat at your houses, and that that has been awesome. And we're we're just so thankful for that. So thank you. You know, they say there's 2 things that you're not supposed to talk about in polite company.
Speaker 2:Do you guys know what these are? Politics and religion. Okay? And we're gonna do both tonight. So what this means is this is either gonna go one of 2 ways.
Speaker 2:Either this is gonna be one of the most helpful pastoral, just what you needed to hear for this moment in time, and it's so timely and so helpful, or this is one of the worst ideas that I've ever had. Okay? So we're about to find out which one. Tonight's talk, we're we've called, think how to think about politics. So how to think Christianly about politics.
Speaker 2:There were several, titles we were kicking around, make redeemer great again, didn't seem like the best title given the moment. But but since we, since we, announced this title, it's been really fun because I've gotten a lot of questions from you guys, since we've announced this. I mean, when you throw it out there that you're gonna give a talk on faith and politics, you happen to get a lot of questions. And here's kinda how the questions have gone. Now these aren't exact words, but I've I've taken the questions I've been asked over the last month, and I've kind of consolidated them into 3 examples of the kind of questions we've received.
Speaker 2:Here here's one of the first questions that I that I feel like I've gotten since we announced this. And And the question goes like this, dude, are you sure about that? Are you sure you really wanna get into faith in politics? Well, the answer to that question is is yes, and here's why. I know a guy who's a minister in Virginia, and I heard him say one time that Christianity either addresses reality or who cares.
Speaker 2:He said there's no distinction between reality and some kind of Christian reality. Either Christianity addresses reality or who cares? In other words, either our faith speaks to the really pressing issues of our time or what are we really doing here. Right? So we're gonna wait into this.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've noticed, issues of of of the political nature are kind of hot topics in our culture right now. A lot of people are asking a lot of questions. And so so we wanna wait into this to try to help equip you. And here's a second question that I've received since we've kind of announced we're gonna do this talk. And it's kinda something like this.
Speaker 2:Now this isn't exact words, but it's something like this. It's it's people trying to fill me out in terms of what kind of qualifications that I have to be the guy to give this talk. So the question's going something like this. So so what do you really know about faith in politics? Okay?
Speaker 2:Well, I wanna assure you of my qualifications. Civics and government in 9th grade was my favorite class in high school, and I aced it. Okay? Intro to political science in college was one of my favorite classes. No.
Speaker 2:But in all seriousness, I've always kinda had an interest in these issues. 1, because I'm a citizen of this country and and and I have find it interesting. But the the the reason that I really began exploring this this issue was really when I was working in college ministry about 5 years ago when I began working college ministry full time, we had asked a group of of our college students, some of the leadership students around our ministry, give us some feedback. What what kind of things would you like to to see us teach over the next year? And there was a group of that those students that said, you know, we're 18 now.
Speaker 2:We're gonna be able to vote. This is the first time. Could you teach us something on faith and politics? And and that seemed like a good idea at the time. So I really began exploring, this issue.
Speaker 2:And it turns out as as is often the case, in fact, it's always the case, that we're actually not the 1st Christians to struggle through these issues. We're not the 1st Christians to try to think about them, to write on them, to reflect on them. Christians in all times and in all places have had to deal with this issue and have to think through how they negotiate their Christian faith in light of the given governmental or political situation in which they live. In fact, there's a whole branch of Christian theology. It's called public theology, and it's all about that intersection.
Speaker 2:How should the Christian faith influence conversation and issues in the public square? And it's a whole wide tradition. I mean, there's writers across the centuries. There's biblical scholars who've written on. There's theologians who have struggled through these things.
Speaker 2:There's pastors who've tried to navigate these issues. So so tonight, I'm I'm really not here as a expert on some kind of political issue, or I'm not here as, like, an expert on public policy. There are people in the room that that know more about those kinds of things than I do. There's no doubt about that. I'm not an expert on campaigns and how campaigns happen.
Speaker 2:Literally, people in the room who know more about that stuff than I do. But I'm really here tonight with this pastoral burden. Because as I've been in Christian ministry over the years, especially over the last 3 or 4 years and especially over the last year or so, I really see Christians, people that I love and care about, really struggling with this. I mean, can you connect with that? Has anybody out there kinda struggled through this?
Speaker 2:I see Christians really struggling through these issues, and and what I've seen is Christians really approaching this kinda issue in one of 2 ways, neither of which I think are right, and this is a metaphor I'm borrowing from somebody else. But here's what they say. It seems like most Christians fall in 1 of 2 categories, either clinching the fist. K. We're here to fight.
Speaker 2:We're here to fight for what's ours. K? So so a reaction of anger. Or maybe the other way that Christians are tending to respond, which is, again, I'm borrowing this metaphor, the ringing of the hands, like anxiety, fear, worry over the direction of our country or the state of their life or their life in the future or whatever. And here's the deal.
Speaker 2:Anger or fear, a fighting spirit, or stress and anxiety, neither of those things are a Christian response and a Christian posture to the world. K. Think about this. You and I serve a king. We serve a king who was raised from the dead.
Speaker 2:Like, there's really nothing for us to ever be afraid of. There's nothing for us to be angry about. I mean, we we we have this faith that gives us great hope. So, really, we're here tonight really out of a pastoral burden to help us negotiate through some of these things. So here's maybe the third question that I've received as we've kinda gotten into this.
Speaker 2:Here's the third question. Okay, Busby. So so what exactly you're hoping to accomplish that night, which is tonight? Well, the title is supposed to tip you off, how to think Christianly about politics. Tonight's really a talk that's intended to help you learn to think about these issues.
Speaker 2:So somebody came up to me and said, so so are you gonna, like, is this gonna be the moment when redeemer, like, officially endorses a candidate? No. Are you gonna tell us who to vote for? No. Are you gonna try to galvanize our church towards some political action?
Speaker 2:No. Somebody said, are are you gonna, like, walk through the different political issues and tell us redeemer's official take on all those things? No. Redeemer doesn't have an official take on a lot of those kinds of things. I mean, redeemer is a diverse body of people with different opinions and different.
Speaker 2:This is something you're gonna hear me say a lot tonight. Different Christians think of these things in different ways. That's okay. I mean, even among our leadership staff, there's not necessarily a united political view on this thing or that thing. Okay?
Speaker 2:So that's not what we're trying to do. Here's really what we're trying to do tonight. And if you don't get this, I'm telling you
Speaker 3:the whole thing goes off
Speaker 2:the rails. Okay? We're really trying to equip you to think about these issues, to provide for you a grid, a framework, a filter of a kind that you can evaluate what you're seeing out there or what you're reading out there. K? So this is literally what I've had in my mind.
Speaker 2:K? I've literally had in my mind that if if Kyle Carpenter I happen to be seeing him right there. The lights beamed right on him. You know, if if if Kyle or or anybody else, if if one of our members of our congregation were to turn on the television and were to hear a political speech or or hear a news report about a certain political issue, what I'm hoping would happen is at that moment, there's 3 key concepts that kinda pop up in your head that you can use by which to evaluate what you're hearing and seeing. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Okay. So that's what tonight's really built on. 3 key concepts. You know, like I said, there's this whole area of Christian theology called public theology. And what I'm really gonna share tonight are sort of 3 classic Christian, ways that Christians in all times and all places have thought through faith and politics.
Speaker 2:Okay? These are the classic building blocks of public theology. This topic that I've become interested in, I wanna kinda invite you into that. So it's gonna be really basic. Okay?
Speaker 2:And this basic framework for how to think about these things. When when I'm done, we'll have some time for question and answer, and here's a shocker. I don't have all the answers. K? We'll wade through some of that stuff together, and I'm happy to interact with you over these ideas.
Speaker 2:So here's what I'm gonna do. Three key concepts. Okay? Three key concepts, and and check this out. For each concept, I have a text, I have a truth, I have attention, and I have a takeaway.
Speaker 2:What do you think? I did grow up Baptist. Okay? So alliteration's key. And and I even have a temptation about each one, but that might be too much.
Speaker 2:Okay? So I'm gonna be writing on the board, and I've become excited already. Okay. So let's just get into it. K.
Speaker 2:So here's the first key concept. Okay? The first key concept that I want in your mind that you're wrestling with as you evaluate political things. Here's the concept. And the way I draw them is on purpose.
Speaker 2:I'll explain later. Okay? So here's the first one. The first one is the common good the common good. Let me explain to you what politics is supposed to be about.
Speaker 2:K. The word politics comes from another word, the word polis. The word polis is the idea of the city. Okay. And here's what politics is supposed to be about.
Speaker 2:And follow me here. Because when I explain to you what politics is supposed to be about, you're going to suddenly recognize how that's not at all what you think you're seeing on TV, and you're right about that. Here's what politics is supposed to be about. Politics is supposed to be about us acknowledging, an honest acknowledgment of the fact that that the Busby family and another family and another family happen to share the same geography. Okay?
Speaker 2:We share the same real estate. We live in the same place together. And what politics is supposed to be about is all those parties coming together to think through an important question. So how are we gonna live this life together? How are we going to, in mutual ways, encourage encourage each other's flourishing?
Speaker 2:That's what politics is supposed to be about. Politics is supposed to be about a project in seeking the common good. Christians have always understood this. Now that's almost nothing like what politics looks like. Right?
Speaker 2:Because a kind of approach to politics has come to really dominate, I would say, politics in the western world and and maybe most especially right now, obviously, in the United States of America, although you make a case that in Britain as well. What politics has really become about is really a philosophy that's really born out of the work of Friedrich Nietzsche, which basically understands that politics at the end of the day is a power grabbing game. See, for Nietzsche, everything is ultimately about grabbing power. Okay? And so what politics has become about in our culture is circling the wagons around you and your family or your tribe or the people who think like you, circling around those wagons and sort of warding off and fighting off anybody who's trying to take your thing and to try to make a case for how this person has injured you and tried to take something from you.
Speaker 2:So now you have the right to try to take back from them. And politics in our country has sort of become about sort of an elbowing to get your piece of the pie. Does that make sense? Have you noticed that? I hope so.
Speaker 2:That's not
Speaker 3:what politics is supposed to be about. Politics is
Speaker 2:supposed to about be about seeking the common good. Let's just talk about that a little bit more. You know, the bible sets up everything in Genesis 1, 23. I mean, scholars have said that there's 2 parts of the bible. There's Genesis 1 to 3, and there's the rest of it.
Speaker 2:So many key things happen in Genesis 1 to 3. For example, God creates the world. He creates people in his own image. He tells those people to go out there and make something of the world, to to do something with it, to create, to work, to to to interact and and and make the world and and make a culture. That's that's what's commanded to sort of the first people.
Speaker 2:Later on down the road, we find that there's a guy like Abraham who's called to receive the blessing of God in order that he could actually be a blessing to all the world. Throughout the scriptures, the Bible is clear that God's people are supposed to be a people who are interested in the welfare of of the rest of the world or the rest of the culture or the rest of the society, that there's supposed to be people who are seeking the common good. You get a passage of scripture like in Jeremiah. Jeremiah 29. There's a there's a famous text.
Speaker 2:This is our text, by the way. So if we got text, truth, takeaway or text, truth, tension, takeaway, here's our text. Jeremiah 29 is a great text for this. The Lord, through the prophet Jeremiah, tells the people of Israel who are living in a pagan land, who are living in a situation in which no one agreed with their way of seeing the world. They're living in exile, and here's what the prophet, the lord through the prophet says, but seek the welfare of the city, Jeremiah 29:7.
Speaker 2:Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf. For in its welfare, you will find your welfare. God's people are supposed to be a kind of people that are interested in the common good. You get hints of that in the New Testament in tons of places. Paul will say things like, let your speech be seasoned with grace toward outsiders.
Speaker 2:There's so much in the New Testament that says the same sorts of things. God's people are supposed to be a people who care about the good of others. This unfolds theologically in a figure like Abraham Kuiper. That's the name you need to know. Abraham Kuiper is a Dutch theologian.
Speaker 2:He also was, like, prime minister of the Netherland Netherlands, and he ran the newspaper. And, the man was just insane. He was a political leader, and he was a pastor. He was just he he did it all. But Kuyper was famous for saying that there's not one square inch in the entire universe over which Christ does not say mine.
Speaker 2:In other words, every sphere, the arts, business, even politics are around where Christians are to to go and be and serve and seek the good of the world. This has always been been within the Christian imagination, and it's really, really important for us to remember that. And it's really, really important for us to recover that idea. Because what Christians have tended to do is to say, well, that industry just belongs to them, and we're going to get out of it and sort of create our own copycat version of that maybe. But Christians are supposed to fill those spaces and seek the common good.
Speaker 2:There's a there's a writer named David Brooks. He writes for the New York Times, and he talks about this a lot. A lot of his work is about saying that the Judeo Christian tradition actually has so many helpful things to offer to the world. And it'd be really helpful if in a time where people are becoming sort of unmoored or unhinged, when a culture's kind of disintegrating, it'd be really good if Christians begin to step up and offer their tradition for the sake of the world, for the good of the world, to seek the common good. Okay?
Speaker 2:So so so here's the truth. I've said it a 1000 times already, but here's the truth. As a Christian, you have a responsibility to the common good. You have a responsibility to the common good. Now politics is a way to seek the common good, and this is key.
Speaker 2:It's not the only way. In fact, in our in our culture, it's almost become the only way that that happens. We almost can't think of anything in a nonpolitical way. I mean but politics is just a way to seek the common good. And I guess I'm here tonight to basically say it's a particularly important way to seek the common good at this particular cultural moment, and you as a Christian have a responsibility to the common good.
Speaker 2:That's the truth. Here's the tension. K. All of these things create other things for us to think about. We'll see that all night long tonight that the more we think about it, the more complex it becomes.
Speaker 2:Here's the tension. Christians have a different understanding of what the common good would be for people. Because Christians are operating under a different kind of authority. Christians are operating with a different understanding of reality and what makes the human person flourish. Christians are operating under different assumptions about all of these kind of things.
Speaker 2:So Christians have a very specific way they understand what would actually constitute the common good. And to make it even more complicated, Christians even disagree with each other as to what would constitute the common good. So not only do Christians have a particular understanding of what the common good would be that's different than maybe the world's, but even Christians amongst themselves have a different understanding of what would constitute the common good. K? That makes things complicated.
Speaker 2:So here's your takeaway. K? Here's your takeaway, and it's gonna sound so simple. Get to know your neighbors. Get to know people who live in close proximity to you.
Speaker 2:I think this is something you'll hear all night tonight. I I wanna try to drive this conversation as often as possible to as local as possible and as relational as possible. You and I tend to think of politics only in terms of Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. Well, there's a whole array of how you engage the common good of a place that goes, well, that really has nothing to do with that. So my takeaway is get to know your neighbors.
Speaker 2:Get to know the interests. Get to know the concerns. Get to know the burdens of people who live around you. Get to know people within your community, within your city. You know, there's no reason I actually know the person who's my city councilman.
Speaker 2:K? I live in Homewood, and I know who he is. It probably wouldn't hurt for me to ask if he'd like to eat lunch and talk about the the needs of a place like Homewood. Does that make sense? I think the only way that we can promote the common good, that we can seek the common good, that we can fulfill our responsibility for the common good is if we actually know what other people outside of our tribe thinks and feels.
Speaker 3:K. So as a Christian,
Speaker 2:you have responsibility to the common good. That's complicated because you, Christians, have different understandings of what that means. But the takeaway, get to know neighbors. Get to know your community. Engage on that level.
Speaker 2:Here's the second thing. Here's the second thing. And I wanna I wanna say this carefully, and I want you to hang with me because I gotta really explain what I mean here. K? So here's the second principle.
Speaker 2:The 2 kingdoms concept. K? The 2 kingdoms concept. I almost wanted to call this dual citizenship concept. K?
Speaker 2:Because the Bible will teach that we are citizens of God's kingdom, but yet you and I are also citizens of of here. But, see, what dual citizenship implies is that and we're kind of citizens of both, and we're loyal to both equally. That's that's not what I mean. Okay? 2 2 kingdoms.
Speaker 2:Christians have always understood that that we are ultimately citizens of Christ's kingdom first, any other kingdom second. And what what you kinda see throughout history, though Christians have always understood a kind of distinction between 2 kingdoms, What we've seen in history is sometimes the blurring of those lines, and it's happened in 2 opposite kind of ways. So in in one way and this kinda was picked up on in Martin Luther's thought and even became somewhat popular in Lutheranism, in Europe, in kind of modern European history. But here but the one extreme is just to say the business of the state and government is over here, and the business of the church is kind of over here. And we will stay out of their stuff if they will stay out of our stuff, and the 2 are completely and utterly distinct and different and, honestly, quite frankly, have no dealings with one another.
Speaker 2:Now I don't think Luther taught that, but I think that's the way the idea was carried out. And there are a lot of historians of modern European history who would tell you that that kind of understanding, that the state stuff or the church stuffs over here, the state stuff is over there, actually created a fertile environment for the ideology of, say, Nazi Germany to grow. There there were there were, you know, as as Hitler began sort of his genocide of the Jewish people, there were German pastors, and you and you can read what they were what they were writing and saying. And they were kinda saying, well, that's statecraft. That's state stuff.
Speaker 2:That's government stuff. That's, like, not our our business. And then you had the Dietrich Bonhoeffer's of the world that said, no. K? So that's one extreme that that you I think we've seen in history.
Speaker 2:Here here's another extreme we've seen in history where, basically, we we consider the the the state and the church literally one and the same. Okay. This is the days of Christendom. Right? Where to be baptized as a baby into the church was the same as being counted in a census.
Speaker 2:The 2 were the same thing. The church and the state were the same. And, again, I think Christians in our finer moments have said, well, that's not appropriate either. K? So so let me give you a let me give you a a text.
Speaker 2:Okay? This is a text that's actually I've really found very interesting in this regard. Okay? Here's the text. It's John chapter 18, and it's Jesus' interactions with Pilate.
Speaker 2:Sorry. Jesus' interaction with Pilate, and I won't take time to read it, but I'll encourage you to kinda look at this. And look at it through the lens of, like, a political theology. Jesus, you might know the story, has has gone on trial, and he's actually on trial before Pilate at this point. And Pilate is trying to figure out if Jesus is a political leader or not.
Speaker 2:You know, he's kind of been a revolutionary to some degree, and he's gained quite a following. And he's saying things about the kingdom of God, which kinda makes it sound like you're talking the language of politics. And Pilate, you know, isn't caught in this weird situation because the crowds are are angry and stirred up and something's gotta happen for them. More than likely, the higher ups of authority within the Roman government are unhappy with him for this insurrection going on, and he's just trying to figure it out. And and and Pilate is in this conversation with Jesus, and Pilate is saying, so are you a king?
Speaker 2:And Jesus is like, my kingdom is not of this world. And, oh, so you are a king? And what Pilate is essential and and you can just see the conversation and see that they're Jesus isn't playing the game, and Pilate completely doesn't get it. And what Pilate is essentially doing is saying, Jesus, look, we can do politics right now. We can get behind a closed door.
Speaker 2:We can work he says, you know, don't you know that I have the power to to take your life for and he's, like, you don't have that power over me. And and you just see Pilate fumbling over this, but he's basically saying, you and I can come behind closed doors, and we can work out a way for this to all be fine. Here's the truth that I think we see in a moment like that. Here's the truth. The kingdom of man I wanna say this carefully.
Speaker 2:The kingdom of man cannot be trusted to advance the kingdom of God. I think this is a point and a truth with regard to our expectations. The kingdom of man cannot be trusted to advance the kingdom of God. In other words, it can't be counted on to be the thing that's supposed to be doing that. Okay.
Speaker 2:So, what I don't mean is that it never will advance the cause of Christ. And I'm certainly not saying it always does. But what I'm saying is that's not where where we that's not the basket where we put our eggs. Okay? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:The kingdom of man cannot be trusted to advance the kingdom of God. So here's the tension, and it's kind of the same point. The kingdom of man cannot be trusted to enhance the kingdom of God. In other words, there's often a clash of the kingdoms here. Right?
Speaker 2:There are times where certain governmental policies, policies with regard to, quote, unquote, the kingdom of man. By the way, this, like, city of God, city of man idea, I mean, Augustine was the guy who started this kind of thinking or at least was one of the first to begin talking in these terms. But but this idea of of the city of God and and the city of man, or the kingdom of God and the kingdom of man, the the the tension is that they're often in conflict. That values of the kingdom of man will come in direct conflict with the values of the kingdom of god. I had a conversation a couple years ago when I began really thinking through these things and teaching this a little bit, with a friend of mine who, well, it's actually the brother of a friend of mine who works in Washington DC.
Speaker 2:And I called him on the phone, and and I'm just kinda wrestling through these things and talking about it with him. And he said something I won't ever forget, and here's what he said. He said, think about it, Joel. The Christian vote should be the hardest to get. The Christian vote should be the hardest to get.
Speaker 2:In other words, you shouldn't be able to just throw out a policy and expect all the Christians to just jump on that, Or you shouldn't expect a certain candidate to be able to just swoop up all the Christians just like that. The Christian vote should actually be the hardest to get because think about all the tensions that a Christian would have to wrestle with on any given political issue. So I'm like, okay. Like, give me an example. So we talked about the issue of immigration.
Speaker 2:K? So can you make for me sort of a common good argument that greater degree of border security, for for for reasons of national security? And by by the way, I lived and ministered for almost 4 years in San Antonio, Texas, about 2 and a half hours from the border of Laredo, Nuevo Laredo, right across the border. I spent a lot of time in the at the border. I actually knew people who worked with US Customs and Border Patrol.
Speaker 2:So this is something I've I've really thought a lot about and kind of a personal interest of mine and a passion of mine. But we talked about that, and he and he just kinda thought about that. Like, you know, can you make a common good argument to me that greater degree of border control or border security for issues of national security, even for financial reasons, to try to forecast taxes and costs and development projects and Social Security and all those sorts of things. Can you make a common good argument to me about trying to operate on the borders with greater degree of wisdom and prudence? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That would promote the common good. But, see, as a Christian, depending on how it's done, it could promote the common good. But, see, as a Christian, you would also have to think about the clear teaching of scripture that that commands you to go out of your way to love and care for the sojourner, the immigrant, the foreigner. K. There's there's there's 3 groups of people that the Old Testament like, it's like the ethical vision of the Old Testament is always kinda harping on.
Speaker 2:It's always talking about the widow. It's always talking about the orphan, and it's always talking about the sojourner or the foreigner or the alien is what it might say in some translations. That person, the sojourner, the immigrant, that that's as close as we have in the bible to what we we consider to be an immigrant. Okay. And what the bible is gonna tell us over and over again, and it and it's deeply within sort of the logic of the law, is to say, you look after the sojourner because that's what you were when you were in Egypt when I rescued you.
Speaker 2:And there's laws that talked about, like, leave a part of your field unharvested, and let the sojourner harvest from that part of the field. There's there's just clear teaching in the scripture to look after the the the needs of the the the foreigner. I I said this last night. I'll say it again, though I don't recommend you do this. But but take a pair of scissors and cut out every reference to the sojourner in in in the Torah, the the first five books of the bible.
Speaker 2:And then do it the same in the prophets where the prophets are calling out the people of God for neglecting their duty to that person. And, like, you'd tear your old testament to shreds. I don't think you should do that. I'm trying to make you see that it's it's that thick. Like, it's it's there everywhere.
Speaker 2:So I'm just using that as an ample as a Christian, you have to negotiate the sort of, okay. Is it is it a wise idea on the borders to do this, that? Well, sure. But you gotta do that in a way that you try to think about the clear teachings of scripture on another thing. I use that as just an example of the of the tension that exist in these kinds of issues.
Speaker 3:Okay. So if if if the truth is
Speaker 2:the kingdom man cannot be trusted to advance the kingdom of God, the tension is that those kings are in conflict. The takeaway the takeaway is is really for me to encourage you to really be informed. Be informed. Be informed about our tradition. Be informed about the scriptures and what they teach about things regarding government and politics.
Speaker 2:Be informed as with regard to our sort of Christian tradition of theological reflection on these issues at different times in different places. I actually have some resources that I think can help you in that. I'll talk about a little bit later. Be informed. Be informed about actual issues.
Speaker 2:Be informed as informed as you can possibly be. You know, one of our pastors made mention of the fact that that if, you know, if my goal tonight is that you get a a framework in your mind by which to think and evaluate, One of our other pastors said, and another goal of mine is that when they see that thing on TV, they won't just change the channel. In other words, they will try to engage. See, because a temptation with regard to this 2 kingdoms idea is just to be like, you know what? Forget it.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna engage in it at all. I'm just gonna kinda stick with what I know, which is sort of the church and the kingdom of God, and I and I just will I'm not even gonna think about it. I'm not gonna engage. I'm not gonna do it. What what I'm telling you tonight is because you have a responsibility of the common good, and maybe particularly in this cultural moment, maybe this ought to cause us to try to engage harder, k, to to to work even harder.
Speaker 2:So so my takeaway is is for us to be, as a people, informed about our tradition of thinking on these things, our scriptures, but also about the issues and needs of our day, so we can have sort of a kingdom lens by which we think and evaluate. K. Here's the third idea. So we've got the common good. We got 2 kingdoms.
Speaker 2:Here's the 3rd idea. Okay. And and this is an idea that I have I would say I've been haunted by. Okay? So so as I've been reading on these things, this is an idea that I just don't quite still know exactly what to do with.
Speaker 2:K? So this is some thinking out loud I'm gonna do with you. Here's the third idea. I'm calling it the quiet life the quiet life. So here's your text.
Speaker 2:First Timothy chapter 2. First Timothy chapter 2. I'm gonna read it for you. There's only a couple places. See, well, see, one thing about the Bible is the Bible isn't gonna address directly a lot of the questions that we have.
Speaker 2:This is true about a lot of issues, but about political issues, it just isn't gonna address those things directly. I mean, you're not gonna be able to turn to a place in the Bible and it necessarily tell you exactly about this political position or that one. K? But there are a couple times when the Bible actually addresses issues of of government and politics directly. So if there's a few times where it does, we gotta really understand those places.
Speaker 2:There's a few places in the New Testament where it happens. I mean, when Jesus is interacting, he says, you know, give to Caesar what Caesar's until the Lord was Lord. Some people would say that's a kind of political conversation. But in Paul's letters, there's two times that Paul talks about the rulers and the governing authorities. So that's kinda, like, tells us to hone in and and check it out.
Speaker 2:So so here's what it says. First Timothy chapter 2. Here's our text. First of all then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. And listen to this.
Speaker 2:This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God, our savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. God has a desire that all people be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. And and and that mission, that cause that I think all of us in the room, at least if you belong to redeemer, you you believe that your life is sort of about that cause. I mean, you go to Redeemer Community Church. It's it's in the name of the church.
Speaker 2:Okay? That our our work is about redemption. It's about God saving people and coming to the knowledge of the truth. But there's a connection between that mission and that cause and government authorities and political leaders. And the link between the 2 is our prayers for them, our submission to them, and then our living a quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
Speaker 2:I think that connection's kinda phenomenal. When I was in seminary, I took a course in the exegesis of the pastoral epistles. Just so you know, pastoral epistles are first Timothy, second Timothy, and Titus. So I took a course in the pastoral epistles with doctor Frank Thielman, one of my favorite professors from BC and Divinity School. Doctor Thielman is literally one of the world's leading experts, especially in the evangelical world for the apostle Paul.
Speaker 2:And I talked with doctor Thielman a lot. At the time when I was going through that course, I was doing some teaching with college students on faith and politics. So I had a lot of conversation with doctor Thielman and just saying, like, tell me about that. Like, what does that mean? The fact that this mission of all people coming to know the truth and this mention of governing rulers and our desires to or or or or or command to pray for them and us living a quiet and dignified life.
Speaker 2:Like, tell me about that connection. Like, what's going on there? And here's what doctor Thielman told me, and he writes about this in his New Testament Theology book. What Paul's saying here is that if Christians, in this time and this place, would lay low a little bit, would not seek to be loud and ostentatious when it comes to issues related to politics, that that could possibly promote a hearing for the gospel in that culture that maybe otherwise would not have been able to be heard. I mean, I think that's a crazy just an awesome phrase, promote a hearing of the gospel.
Speaker 2:You see, what Paul could have said is, alright. Everybody's free in Christ, so slaves run away from your masters. But what Paul says instead is is is, wait a second. Slaves, because that was a political issue. Slaves, obey your masters as if they were Jesus himself.
Speaker 2:But then he turns around to master and say, and, masters, this is the book of Philemon is about this. Okay? And and, masters, treat your slave as if he's your Christian brother. In other words, don't necessarily try to picket the senate in Rome. Lay low a little bit, and maybe that could promote a hearing for the gospel somehow.
Speaker 2:Maybe that could advance Christian mission somehow. So here's your truth. Okay? Here's your truth. Sometimes, can I use that word carefully, sometimes it might serve our cause better if we would maybe fly under the radar a little bit, if we would perhaps choose the route of quiet, dignified?
Speaker 2:In other words, posting that article on Facebook might not be the best idea. There might be a better way. Now I do find it interesting because I think a temptation inherent in this quiet life thing is to say, oh, well, Busby, what you're saying tonight is just we don't do anything. No. No.
Speaker 2:No. No. Because I think it's an active vision of being quiet, if that makes any sense. It's surrender, submission to, it's praying for. K?
Speaker 2:And and you gotta understand the world in which Paul wrote, the Roman world. Okay. The Greco Roman world, okay, was the Roman Empire, it was, like, the most brutal society that that that the world's ever known. I mean, the Romans were famous. They were famous for inventing ways to be, like, violent toward people.
Speaker 2:In the Roman world, human life meant nothing. Roman society all held together under this assumption that everybody kinda knew their place, and if you get out of your place, there's hell to pay. Romans were were I mean, that's what crucifixion was about, was to say, hey, barbarians and low down criminals. You've kinda gotten out of your place, so we're gonna put you in your place. The Romans were famous.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can read their historians about how Roman soldiers, when they were bored, they would think of creative ways to torture people. K. Rome was one of the most brutal societies the world's ever known. In Rome, if you had a baby and you didn't like the way it looked or its gender, you literally put it on the street, and nobody thought twice about that. Nobody thought twice about that.
Speaker 2:I mean, you could do that, and it was fine. It would either be picked up by animals or picked up by by slave traders or it would be picked up by the temple for temple prostitution, and nobody thought it was a big deal. Rome was also known for its extreme sexual licentiousness and debauchery. Everywhere you turned around, there was some graphic pornographic image you had to look at. And that's the culture, that's the world where Paul's saying, and those leaders, pray for them.
Speaker 2:But it but it's not doing nothing. Okay? I mean, what we also know from history is that it were the it was the Christians that said, okay. When they set the baby out because they don't want it, we're gonna go get the baby, and we're gonna take care of it. And and whenever sicknesses I mean, that was another thing that happened in Rome.
Speaker 2:There were these kind of massive, like, super bugs that would make people sick, these plagues that would come about. And, see, as everybody was fleeing a home because the plague was there, it was the Christians that went in to provide nursing care at that home. I think something like that is was meant by this quiet life, godly and dignified. In other words, there might be other routes to take to serve the common good, to stand up for the cause of Christ, which is actually a political thing to do when you acknowledge that politics is really supposed to be about advancing the common good. In other words, they weren't really quick to go write their senator or picket the senate.
Speaker 2:Now they lived in a different time and a different era, and we have a kind of recourse that they did not have. We have a chance to participate in our government in a way that they did not have. And and and I agree with that and praise God for that. And that but, see, that's even more of a reason to get engaged because we actually have those kinds of recourses. But for us to just consider this truth that sometimes sometimes it might actually serve our cause better if we'd lay low a little bit.
Speaker 2:That's the truth. Now here's the tension, And I think you feel it because I can feel like I can see it on your faces. As, like, a speaker and a teacher, I really depend a lot on, like, what looks people are giving me. Okay? So that's encouraging with some of you in the room and that's discouraging with others.
Speaker 2:But, but there's a there's an obvious tension here. Okay? I mean, some people's natural resting face is kinda like this, and I don't mean anything by it. There's an obvious tension here if you're thinking about it, and and here's the tension. Here's the tension.
Speaker 2:Okay. But but but when do we know if it's time to lay low or speak up? How are we supposed to know? Because here's the thing, and as I already mentioned it earlier, that was exactly what the German church pastors were saying to, like, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the confessing church, which was kinda Bonhoeffer's little gang. That's exactly what they were saying.
Speaker 2:They were saying, well, that's a state issue. Why don't you do the quiet life thing, find her the radar, find other things to do? And, again, Bonhoeffer was saying, no. Let me make it a little more local, little more proximate to us. That's exactly what Birmingham pastors were saying to Martin Luther King Junior.
Speaker 2:Letters to from the Birmingham Jail, if you ever read it, that's his exact response. He's saying, this isn't a time for us to lay low. And the Birmingham pastor is like, but if you'll just wait, things are happening. Like, slow improvement is being made. And Martin Luther King Junior's thing is, we cannot wait.
Speaker 2:In other words, what what they were doing was thinking about this concept and saying, no. But the clear teaching of scripture, the cause of Christ's loyalty to the kingdom of God makes this a moment in which we must practice a civil disobedience. Do you see the tension in that? How do we know when's a time where we maybe ought to just kinda does that make sense? But I do think we're supposed to be known as people who aren't just sort of obnoxious on social media.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying. K? Alright. So here's my takeaway. Okay?
Speaker 2:Here's my takeaway. So how would you know if it's one of those times and when it's not? Well, I I think that's the kind of thing that requires a lot of prayer. I think that's the kind of thing that requires a lot of submission to the leadership of God's spirit, which means I also believe it's the kind of thing that requires a kind of submission to the people of God, to our community. In other words, if if you think God's spirit is telling you something that maybe you already sort of agree with and and wanted to do anyway, every now and then, that might be a sign that that's not God's spirit saying that to you.
Speaker 2:When we listen to God's spirit, we're intended to listen to His Spirit in the company of others who are also listening, who can help us. So, like, on certain political issues or certain political actions you feel compelled to take, I would encourage you, just in practical ways, run that by your home group. I mean, does that make sense? I think for us to to to be guided by God's spirit, to be prayerful, we need the help in community of others to help us negotiate these really difficult things. In other words, I think to know when to pick our spots to choose our battles, I think we've got to be the kind of people being formed into the image of God, to be formed into the likeness of Christ.
Speaker 2:See, because here's the way Christian ethics works. Christian ethics, okay, is not about us figuring out an answer to every question that we could possibly ever ask. And the Bible is really not interested in giving you facts and answers. It's not an answer book. The way Christian ethics works is that it assumes that you're a kind of person who's prayerful, who surrendered to community, a church community, a local church community, that that is assuming you're the kind of person who's practicing the spiritual disciplines.
Speaker 2:In other words, you're being formed. And if you're being formed, there's a good chance you'll know what decisions to make. There's a good chance you'll know what you're supposed to do in November. Does that make sense? It works that way, not the way that we think.
Speaker 2:There's not a guy who's gonna be able to tell you, here's what you ought to do in November. But the the vision of Christian ethics is for you to be forming. So if if my takeaway for for point 2 was to be informed, my takeaway for maybe this point is to be formed. Be the kind of person who's being formed as a virtuous person who would then know what kind of hard decisions to make. I drew these kind of in, like, a, is that a half circle?
Speaker 2:It's it's kind of in a half circle because I want you to see that these things depend upon each other. Okay? In other words, there's, you know, there's good tensions and there's bad tensions. Okay? My brother designs bridges for a living, and he talks about how bridges have to kinda have a certain tension to be able to hold up across a body of water.
Speaker 2:There's good tension. It's the kind of tension that makes stuff work. Okay? And these points, I think, are all intentioned, and they mutually inform each other. So when we face the temptation, when we hear about this idea of the common good, we're going to face this temptation to just to just circle our wagons and to do politics the way that everybody else does, be the kind of Christian community that that essentially just words off everybody and defends on what's ours.
Speaker 2:But see but see, a a vision of the common good won't let us do that. When we're tempted to say, you know what? Two kingdoms, there's too much tension. It's irreconcilable. Forget it.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna be engaged. No. A calling to the common good tells us, no. You don't have that. You can't cop out like that, especially especially when your culture really needs you.
Speaker 2:In in light of this quiet life, when we're tempted to say, you know what? Well, then he just gave me permission to just never take a stand for anything. No. The 2 kingdoms say say you're a citizen of the kingdom of God, and that means you got to have a kind of courage. These things all depend upon one another, and I think it all kinda comes together in this thing that you saw in 1st Timothy, this cause of desiring all people to come to know the truth.
Speaker 2:In other words, because we have such a heart and a and a and a a burden for people to come to know Jesus, it might cause us to try to engage on a level that maybe maybe sometimes we prefer not to get into the mess. The common good, the 2 kingdoms, the quiet life. I really think these are three things that should kinda come up in our mind as we begin to think about political issues. We're gonna take a 5 minute break. Okay?
Speaker 2:5 minute break. If you need to get something to drink, you need to stretch your legs, and then we're gonna do some questions and answers. Hey, guys. Just as we gather back, I wanna tell you about just a couple resources that have been really helpful for me as I've kind of formed some of these ideas. I'm just gonna run through these, just really quickly and say a word or 2 about them.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm a big books guy, kind of a book dork. And so I wanna tell you about some of these books. There's a really really important book that was written a while ago actually by by a guy named Robert Putnam. Okay. And it's called, Bowling Alone.
Speaker 2:Okay. And the the it's really a book about sociology. It's called bowling alone. And the and the point of this book is that is to basically say, Americans no longer are connected to one another in kind of civic ways. There were days when in which people would belong to like a bowling league.
Speaker 2:There were days in which people would actually show up for the city council meeting. It would be actually the most attended event of the of the year or whatever. And and Robert Putnam gets gets about you know, kinda gets around the idea that American society has really kinda fallen apart just as a result. Pretty good book. If you're looking for just kind of a short, really concise, but really, really good book, okay, there's a book right here by a guy named Michael Gerson and Peter Werner called City of Man.
Speaker 2:The subtitle is religion and politics in a new era. This is a very, very good book. I mean, just kind of in a really concise way walks through some of these issues. Onward, a book by a guy named Russell Moore. Russell Moore directs the ethic in ethics and religious liberty commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Speaker 2:Just a great voice for these issues. He wrote a book called Onward, very helpful. It turns out we're not the only Christians to kind of try to theologize about politics while Rome burns. Okay? Saint Augustine was the original guy doing that.
Speaker 2:I mean, literally, he is the historian of the false civilization. He he he's writing city of God while he's living in Rome and Rome is literally, like, the the the the the degree to which people thought Rome was permanent and eternal. You can't get your mind around, and the whole thing fell apart and Augustine writes about it. This maybe is the most important book ever written on faith and politics. It's thick.
Speaker 2:It's worth it. It's it's kinda hard to understand sometimes. But the righteous mind by a guy named Jonathan Haidt. Jonathan Haidt is actually a a, ethics professor at New York University. He's not a Christian.
Speaker 2:I heard him give a talk one time on this idea. The title of the book's The Righteous Mind, Why Good in People Are Divided by Politics and Religion. Man, it's so good. He basically gets into the ways that, you know, conservatives think of the world in a certain way. Liberals think of the world in a certain way, and each other aren't stupid.
Speaker 2:They're just thinking of it differently, and he kinda gets into those distinctions, I think, in a helpful way. There's a, gosh, there's so many. Okay. This is a magazine called Comment Magazine. It's a magazine.
Speaker 2:It's called Public Theology For the Common Good. It's just a really good magazine. It's not that much to subscribe to, and it just really dives into really specific issues. So if you're ever interested to how you know, on how a bible's or the Christian tradition's understanding of a particular political issue would unfold, I think this is just a great resource. I'll leave these up here.
Speaker 2:You can look at them. One last one I just wanna recommend, the novel Jaber Crow by Wendell Berry. Anybody? Anybody? Thank you.
Speaker 2:K. So Wendell Berry writes a novel called Jaber Crow, and it's it's set in a small town in Kentucky. And he writes these stories about really the interdependence of families upon one another and business people and, like like, people actually having an understanding of their neighbors. I I would consider myself a conservative. Okay?
Speaker 2:And here's what I mean by conservative. When I say conservative, I really don't mean republican in at all. That's actually becoming more true all the time. Okay? What what a conservative mean here's what it means to be conservative in my mind.
Speaker 2:To be conservative, I'm borrowing this definition, but to be conservative is is about understanding that almost everything we need for our future, we find somewhere in our past. It's also about understanding that life's more than just individuals in a government. There's this whole fabric of things in between, neighborhoods, and literally baseball, and and families. And and so I think, Wendell Berry, better than any book you could read, than this novel, paints a picture of what it means to actually care about the common good. K?
Speaker 2:There's more. They're good. Y'all can we can talk about them later. Okay. So here's what I wanna do.
Speaker 2:I I wanted to give you guys some time as much as you'd like to ask some questions, and and I wanna frame this in a certain kind of way. I'm really not gonna tell you to vote for. K? There's a couple other ways I wanna frame this. Questions begin with who, what, when, where, why, and how.
Speaker 2:I have a professor that called it the power of the interrogative. K? The power of a word that's a question. Okay? That begins a question.
Speaker 2:Just saying. Another way that that I wanna frame this is is I'm not gonna be afraid to just tell you, like, you know, you know, I don't know. I have to think about that more. I was telling some friends that I was gonna be giving this talk, and they were like, dude. And I was like, and there's gonna be a q and a.
Speaker 2:And they're like, dude. They call that minister suicide. But if but if I'm afraid to say I don't know, then I'm not worried about it. Okay? So if you wanna specifically engage with some of these ideas and and you just let me know.
Speaker 2:So let let's do this. Questions.
Speaker 4:Hey. I'm Josh, by the way.
Speaker 2:Hey, Josh. Hey. So you, man.
Speaker 4:Nice to meet you. Basically, this is a very difficult November we're coming up to, and I was no. You're you're kinda poised, and I thought about the time when Jesus flipped, you know, the tables in the church because, you know, it wasn't for the common good. Christianity was being, you know, totally dismayed. And then he also told Peter to sheath his sword.
Speaker 4:So an aggressive version in which we acted like Martin Luther King did, like, you know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer did.
Speaker 2:Or Yeah. So an example of an extreme sort of, protest.
Speaker 4:Right. Yes. Exactly. And then he also said to sheath Peter, sheath your sword. So both are different responses, but both further the kingdom.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Because sheathing the sword allowed Christ to be crucified. Sure. Flipping the table allowed for Christianity to be well, at the time wasn't Christianity.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:But, you know, both further the kingdom. So when we can't really trust politics from a world perspective to, I guess, you know, push Christianity or benefit the kingdom
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:I'm I'm still lost as to how we can vote. I guess we just have to pray for discernment, obviously. But, you know, in terms of trusting one who's gonna allow the most opportunity to further the kingdom, is that is that our mindset in which we need to vote?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in other words, you know, CS Lewis was famous for saying, if you find yourself, you know, with desires that nothing in this world can satisfy, maybe you're meant for another world. If you find yourself with political views that no poll like, no politician or candidate expresses, maybe you're made for another kingdom is kinda the idea there. Yeah, man. So I I feel like you're asking a question based on, you know, when the alternatives are so bad, like, what do we do?
Speaker 2:And and I would say that this is gonna be one of these issues that is a matter of Christian conscience. Okay? So so and that's one great thing about Christian Christian Christian tradition, especially the free church tradition that we'd be a part of, is that the idea that only Jesus is Lord of our conscience. So there will be Christians that handle what you're describing in different ways. Some will say, as a matter of Christian conscience, I don't think I can vote for either or, you know, or whoever.
Speaker 2:So I'm actually as sort of a a a protest or means of obedience to to the Lord's call. I'm I'm not voting at all. There are other Christians that would say, and I've heard them say this. I've heard people say this to me. If you don't vote, you're sinning like, it's sin, because you're neglecting at least the one opportunity you have to influence.
Speaker 2:So I would say Christians are gonna land on different sides of that, but I think your question's right. That I think we have to do the best we can, try to evaluate, and we have to be prayerful and discerning and all these kind of things. So I think I think that's how we have to go about it. It it's unfortunate that we have to go about it that way, but I think I mean, I think you're right. But but I think I wanna really make that clear.
Speaker 2:Different Christians are gonna have different ways they understand how they ought to negotiate that, and that's kinda gonna be on you and on me and the rest of us. It's a good question. Something else? I see Corey back there. I'm sweating already.
Speaker 5:No. It's it's lightweight. I'm kinda jumping off that question a little bit. In reference to the quiet life. Like, what about morally or ethically neutral topics that don't necessarily relate to the common good, like pure purely governmental or structural or whatever.
Speaker 5:Like, is there room for strong for a Christian to have a strong opinion about those things?
Speaker 2:Can you give me an example of what you mean, Corey? I mean, I get what you're saying. So things that aren't clear, moral, ethical. Things that are more like
Speaker 5:So like in the butt
Speaker 2:tax. Stuff like that?
Speaker 5:Stuff like that or founding of the government, like original intent for
Speaker 2:Constitution.
Speaker 5:Yeah. The constitutional items that are not common good topics. I mean, first amendment free speech may could be considered common good depending on what it is. Like, second amendment could be go either way.
Speaker 2:You know,
Speaker 5:I could go down the list. There's a ton of things that are strongly held by some people one way or another.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 5:Especially relating to the constitution and the founding of America Right. That are not necessarily Christian or common good ideas.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the question was, is there room for us to have opinions on those issues? And I would say, yeah. I would say there's definitely room for that. I would encourage us to to to show a kind of measured response in ways.
Speaker 2:Like like in other words, just because somebody disagrees with you about one of those kinda issues or even a bigger one, doesn't mean they're dumb or evil. Right? So I think I think there's just ways that we have to be able to to kinda have a accurate assessment of the priorities of those kind of things. But, I mean, my opinion is, yeah, Christians can have strong opinions about those things. So yes.
Speaker 2:Other questions?
Speaker 6:Hello. This is Darren. And, one thing that's helped me through the years is you look at common good in our country. And the reason I can't vote a certain way is because of abortion and things like that. Because as a Christian, that is not a common good.
Speaker 6:Right. And so I'm not a Republican or Democrat. I'm an independent. And if if we're if we're living a a Christ life like we should be, and we send people to represent us. I can't send someone that is gonna be pro abortion, things like that, because our government is not a it is a represent it represents who we send, they represent us.
Speaker 7:Right.
Speaker 6:And so as a Christian, I I look at it that way. And there are opinions like with gun laws and things like that, that our founders did, and they are opinions. And I know people that are Republicans and Democrats that don't like guns and some do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Those issues are just you got to agree to disagree with.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 6:But some of the common good things that we do even with illegal aliens, we're a nation of laws. And if we follow the law like, you know, we're supposed to, then we need to help people. You know, the church has failed big time in our country with the poor even
Speaker 4:now. Sure.
Speaker 6:And so we can't choose to obey this law and not this law, You know? And that's what we do a lot in our country now, and I don't think it's for the common good. I think it hurts us in the long run with a lot of the laws. So
Speaker 2:Yeah. Is there anything you could say you just wanna comment on that? Or
Speaker 6:It was about, you know, as a the common good, how else do you see Christians, or how how would you guide someone into if our government rep represents us Right. How should we see that, and how should we vote for someone if they represent us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. Okay. So can I can I okay? So 2 things. I would I would say similar to what I said earlier is, like, that's just gonna be a tough thing.
Speaker 2:We're gonna have to negotiate and navigate prayerfully, discerning, all the things I said earlier. Can I take the issue of abortion and try to run it through this filter? Would that be helpful? Okay. Because this is one thing I thought about a lot about.
Speaker 2:So so my point here tonight is if if you're going to hold a position politically, then you need to arrive at it through sort of the classic Christian tradition of thinking on these issues. That that's kinda what I'm trying to say. So, like, abortion, for example. There are many of us, okay, myself included, that would that would believe that, yeah, it does not promote human flourishing for us to, you know, promote abortion, for us to, in some way, not not stand up for, defend, you know, the most helpless and vulnerable people in society. On born babies being those, you said earlier, the poor.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can kind of extend that. Okay? So in other words, we believe what best leads to the flourishing of human beings and communities and families, okay, is that we have what Richard John Newhouse, a famous thinker on these issues called the culture of life. Okay? So so that's that's sort of the common good way of thinking about abortion.
Speaker 2:So if you're if you're pro life, you're you need to be pro life because you believe that that promotes flourishing of human beings. K? You're gonna have to give some thought to the idea of what the Bible's teachings on this issue would be and to have a honest and sobering assessment that that that is not the prevailing view in our nation. Okay. So it's not even that's not the prevailing view.
Speaker 2:It's it's that it's that's not the view that's reflected in our legislation and in our laws and things like that. Okay? So you're gonna have to negotiate for yourself what that means in terms of your allegiances. Okay? Now when it comes to something like the quiet life and I wanna be careful here because when I say the quiet life, I don't mean we don't have any opinions.
Speaker 2:Okay? And I don't mean we're disengaged. Okay? Because I've tried to make the case the opposite. Okay?
Speaker 2:But what I'm saying is so the so the vision in first Timothy is a active kind of quietness. I know that's hard to explain. It's a loud quiet. Okay? It's a it's a prayerful.
Speaker 2:It's prayer. It's submission. It's seeking to love the neighbor. It's inviting the person over to your home. So so when I run that through the quiet life, I need to think really seriously about, okay, what does it look like for me to stand up in this on these issues?
Speaker 2:And again again, I'm gonna say it a 1000 times tonight and tomorrow night, it's a matter of Christian conscience, the degree to which you're going to do that or not do that. But I have an example of a personal friend of mine that became burdened about this issue. This isn't the greatest thing for all of society. I believe Bible teaches something different. And so they began fostering children that would have been aborted.
Speaker 2:K? Or or there are ways to I mean, I know of of organizations where you can volunteer to do crisis counseling. In other words, it's a way to engage the idea. Okay? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Okay. So what I'm saying is that with these views, we we have try to think them through this kind of grid, and it's gonna be hard. And there's gonna be times that we're gonna, have back ourselves into sort of corners that we feel like are untenable, or we feel like, well, I can't vote for anybody. I mean, those are gonna be those kinds of issues that we'll not have to negotiate. And I would, again, always appeal to Christian conscience.
Speaker 2:What has the lord led you to do? But we don't do that alone. We also listen along with others in our community, and and that's the way that I would encourage us to, like, operate. Makes sense? K.
Speaker 2:Any other questions?
Speaker 8:Hi. My name is Ryan.
Speaker 2:Hi, Ryan.
Speaker 8:I kinda had a question about warfare pretty much with the whole deal with ISIS and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 8:I've had a lot of conversations with my dad about this just in regards of how can you condone, you know, going to war. And if you kill the person, you know, on the other side of the field from you, you're preventing them from coming to salvation. But at the same time, obviously, that, you know, on our own on our own parts, we can't, you know, convert anybody. Like, that's not our burden to carry. Right.
Speaker 8:But how can you condone, I guess, going to somewhere and ending somebody's life and taking away that possibility for salvation? But at the same time, those people are massacring thousands of innocent people. I mean, just this past week, we've seen onslaught of terrorist attacks. Right. So whereas Christians is at fault and an obligation of, like Josh was saying, sheathing the sword as opposed to not sheathing the sword?
Speaker 8:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Man, great question. Okay. So this is this is a really classical Christian question of when is violence permissible in defense of justice, basically. Or, you know, there's a whole array of Christian thinking, about Christianity and war. And and here's what I would say.
Speaker 2:I wanna think about this for just one second because I wanna say this the right way. Alright. So there's been there's been, I think, 3 ways that Christians have approached the question you're asking. K. On one side of the coin, well, over here somewhere, you you got you got a pacifist approach.
Speaker 2:Right? That violence is never permissible. Okay? So there's a whole just body of Christian thinking about that. On on another side of the spectrum, it's sort of a complete unthoughtfulness.
Speaker 2:Like like, of course, we can bomb people. We have bombs, you know. I heard somebody I heard somebody say it well, I mean, seriously though, like, I heard somebody say it one time. Let's kick there and take their gas. I know and and I and I say that you get what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:In other words, there's there's a kind of lack of thoughtfulness even among Christians about, like, well, we've got the bombs, whatever suits our interest. Like, let's go do the thing, you know. Of course, there's a there's a a spectrum in between. So so, like, in Catholic thought, for example, there's what's called the just war tradition. The idea that certain certain kinds of wars are defensible or, you know, you can defend the the idea that you should go to them, but there's certain restrictions as to how those wars ought to be waged.
Speaker 2:So in classic just war theory, you're not supposed to fight with weapons that the other side doesn't have. That's a way of negotiating those tensions. Okay? Now we don't practice that. Right?
Speaker 2:So here's here so I'm getting all around to say Christians have thought about this in a lot of different ways. Okay? Here's what I think is really beautiful about our faith. There's there are Psalms in the Bible where you can see the psalmist say, oh, lord, would you slay the wicked? And we're actually allowed to say that.
Speaker 2:Apparently, it made the Bible. Oh, lord, would you slay the wicked? There's another thing in our faith where we say, but, father, would you forgive them because they don't know what they're doing. So in other words, something of the tension you're talking about, I think, does come together in the person work of Jesus on our behalf. So that's hard, man.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's hard. And I think across the spectrum of Christian thinking, people have thought about those questions differently depending on the conflict, depending on the war, depending on the on the situation. And and I I know that's I'm just saying you're right to wrestle with that tension. What I don't think we can do as Christians is basically say, well well, violence is just forever reality, and we just gotta do that because that's just the way our world is. Remember, we serve a king who was crucified, who laid himself aside, who's one day returning.
Speaker 2:And the bible says that one day swords will be beaten into plowshares. In other words, we're heading toward a future of complete and utter peace where lambs are laying down with lions, or this is Isaiah language, where where the, child can stick his hand in the snake's den. And so the idea that our world is gonna one day be that means that we we can't just think, well, violence is just inevitable, so just forget it. We have to just sit and continue to ask the question you're asking. It's a great question.
Speaker 9:My question is about, what do you think, is the relationship between the freedom we have in Christ and the freedom we have of religion in this country. Because obviously, there's some, political things that freedom of religion, offers, our our fellow man, you know, whether they're Christians or not. Yeah. And, yeah, I I guess it's just that. What's your what's your take on the the sometimes maybe discrepancies in the the way that Christians think and the way that we, benefit from living in a country that has freedoms of religion.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 9:I guess that's yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sure. If this isn't exactly answering what you're asking, like, let's talk about it afterward. But okay. Fair enough.
Speaker 2:Okay. Because Christians classically have held this idea that only Christ is Lord of the conscience. Okay? Christians classically have promoted, especially the Baptists quite frankly, have promoted freedom of religion causes because the idea is it creates an environment where where people can kinda live freely before the Lord. I mean, that that's kind of the idea there.
Speaker 2:So this question was asked to Russell Moore actually at the Southern Baptist Convention a few weeks ago for what it's worth. And then God basically said, doctor Moore, how could you promote freedom of religion, you know, for Muslims is basically what he was saying, because there was a, you know, there was a resolution passed that Christians should promote the building of mosque and things like that. And this this man was asking Russell Moore, like, how could you do that? How could you you promote, you know, another religion? And he was just saying, well, I mean, if we basically start saying those people shouldn't have the freedom to worship, then that cuts both ways.
Speaker 2:People eventually start saying to us, you know and and I think I think there's some truth there. And I think what we gotta be really careful about is, at the end of the day, the answer to somebody not knowing Jesus is is a matter of the gospel. It's not in other words in other words, you know, Christianity doesn't need some kind of cultural apparatus by which to travel, like, political structures in order to be effective. I mean, Jesus said he'd build his church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it. I mean, that's in other words, that's pretty certain.
Speaker 2:Right? And, I mean, when Jesus says he's going to do something, he's going to. Right? And so and so I would just say that, like, there's just a tension there. I I think that Christians ought to promote religious expression of all types, personally.
Speaker 2:That's my personal opinion because I think that we would like that freedom of our own. So
Speaker 10:Joel, could you talk a little bit about some ways that as believers we can engage sort of the political processes and the political institutions of our day to promote the common good other than, you know, sort of what we centered on tonight, which is know, loving our neighbors and then also, like, voting for president.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 10:So there's a, you know, a full spectrum sort of in between those. So what are what are some of the ways that we can sort of we can target that low hanging fruit
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 10:And sort of get in and, and make a difference in those institutions that are accessible to us?
Speaker 2:Man, great question. Now there's no doubt that there are other people who can answer this question way better than me. I would really try to start as locally as possible. Like, I I would consider the fact I mean, city council meetings are open to the public. Like, I would consider attending 1.
Speaker 2:I would consider, I would consider like, my city councilman in Homewood is a guy named Patrick McCluskey. Like, I would like to get to know him. In other words, I think you're exactly right. When we think politics, we only think Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. I think we ought to begin to think a lot more locally.
Speaker 2:Okay. So that's one thing I would say. I would also say that there are people even within redeemer's body that that are actively engaged in things like, some of the, development of the city of Birmingham, for example. And I and I think that there's things there. I think I think finding practical ways to serve elementary schools and is a is an example of moving that direction.
Speaker 2:I mean, public elementary schools are low or, you know, they are on the rung of of the government. You know? And so so there's some political processes there. I mean, I would like to see, you know, churches approach elementary schools and say, how can we practically serve you? What can we do for you?
Speaker 2:So so I think those are some things. I mean, there is the good old fashioned right your congressman or senator. I mean, I think there are lots of ways that we we can be engaged, but I would just always encourage us, like, let's try to think as locally as possible. There's a guy in our church, Caleb Crosby. I don't know if y'all know him, and and he would have an awesome answer to this question.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna ask him and get back with you. That's good, though. Again, my my my advice is think about it as locally as possible. Yes.
Speaker 11:I was wondering if you could discuss the idea of civil disobedience, especially with regards to situations where we feel like our faith dictates or tells us to not obey what the government is is is essentially telling us to do.
Speaker 2:Yep. Okay. So civil disobedience. Yeah. So you have examples in scripture.
Speaker 2:One of the greatest examples I think exists. So Peter and John are preaching and teaching about Jesus. They're brought in before like the rulers. They're beaten. And and and the Bible literally says this.
Speaker 2:They're beaten, and they're commanded to no longer preach and teach in the name of Jesus. And here's what it says. They went out from that place rejoicing that they had suffered dishonor for his name, and they went right about preaching and teaching in the name of Jesus. So the to me, that's an example of saying my allegiance to God's kingdom will supersede the allegiance to this kingdom here. We are in ground 0 of civil I mean, we're in Birmingham, Alabama.
Speaker 2:There's so much for us to learn from the civil rights movement. K? And and I think we'd be wise to do that. African American brothers and sisters, some of whom I've been I've had opportunity to be taught from, they literally live this. I mean, there were folks who actually lived this that you can go talk to.
Speaker 2:And I think they're the shining examples of how to be a minority in a culture and to serve the name of Jesus. I think they are. So here's here's what I would encourage us, though. Whenever you feel like you need to do something this is a kind of a Christian rule in general. Like like, check it by everybody else too.
Speaker 2:You know? Like like, in other words, don't just decide you're supposed to do some bold thing politically. Run that by your your church and your community, and make those kinds of decisions in community. But, yeah, I mean, I think the the Christian tradition tradition would tell us over and over again that there are times that that's our calling. I think you choose those spots wisely.
Speaker 2:But I think we can do we can do that. I mean, sure. 2nd.
Speaker 11:So I love the discussion on the common good, and I was wondering if we live in a global community. I mean, we are here in Birmingham, Alabama. We also live as part of a a huge global community. How do we balance the common good, quote, unquote, for Birmingham and the common good for America and Alabama and the common good for
Speaker 2:The world.
Speaker 12:The world?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That's actually something I've really been thinking a lot about. Because a lot of people would make the argument that globalization really throws a big wrench in all of this, and I think that's a good point.
Speaker 13:Well,
Speaker 2:yeah, I would say as Christians, we probably are best able to think about this because we literally have people that we've literally been brought into a family with from every tongue entrapping nation. Okay? So so I think as Christians, you know, it is isn't it amazing to think about the fact that if if you know a Christian in Haiti, you actually have more in common with that person than a non Christian person in Birmingham. I mean, you really do, like, in a in a deep way. So so I would say that that that's a good question.
Speaker 2:So I would say that there are certain ways that Christians would understand the common good that would be common to all people in all places. There are certain ways that Christians would understand the common good in America that might be different in another place. And and I don't know, man. I I think we just build relationships with those folks. I think we try to look to leaders that seem to have bigger interests besides just American ones.
Speaker 2:I know that's crazy to even say. And there's a lot of debate on what that means and looks like. I mean, there's great examples of how bringing democracy to a place wasn't the best idea for that place. I think that's an example of misunderstanding what the common good looks like. Right?
Speaker 2:I don't know, man. But I do think we have to think about that. It's great. What are first
Speaker 14:tier issues that should drive Christians to the voting block, and what should we be unwilling to compromise on when we go to vote?
Speaker 2:What are the first two issues we should be thinking about when we go to the voting voting block? Man, that's a great question. Okay. So the you're kinda asking my personal opinion of this. Okay?
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna give you kinda my personal opinion and mixed in there with some opinions of people that I think are pretty smart. I actually think issues of religious liberty are pretty first tier for us at this cultural moment. You know, we we live in a culture where a Christian understanding of things, is is really evaporating really quickly. And I I think I think for us to try to carve out ways that we can faithfully practice our faith is probably a good idea. So so things about religious liberty to me are key.
Speaker 2:You know, when you when you man, I I I don't know. When you when you think about it on a common good level, I I think, shoot. I mean, at this point, just basic civility. I mean, just really basic stuff. I mean, isn't it embarrassing to have watched those debates?
Speaker 2:I mean, so, you know, I don't know. Basic civility and the ability to consider another person as a human being, I know that's really hard, and and I know that we don't know. I mean, I was talking to somebody somewhat recently who's worked in Washington, and I asked them, tell me of somebody I would like to see on TV in Washington. Congressman, anybody. Tell me which of those people are good guys, and he sat there for, like, 4 minutes, which is an eternity in a at a lunch.
Speaker 2:And and I'm just eating tacos waiting. And and he and he said he just said, man, I I can't I can't believe I can't think of 1. That's bad. K? I do think there's some probably basic issues of competence.
Speaker 2:You know? It's as close as I could come. It's a good question, though. Competence, civility. What was it?
Speaker 2:The first one? That's it. Yeah. That's the best one. Humaneness.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. Good question.
Speaker 12:So my question is, to what extent do we place our faith in a broken government? And and when I say broken, like, a sinful, you know, worldly institution to regulate morality for us? And when do we seek opportunities to use the freedoms that we have to re navigate around those institutions that are in place in order to affect change, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That does make sense. I mean, yeah, I don't I don't know that we place really any faith in the government, you know, on cert on certain things. So so what I would say about that is, you know, the legislating morality thing is a hard thing to to know what just to do with. Because, yes, we are not supposed to have this expectation that a want a pluralistic society with lots of different kinds of people.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's the great promise of America. I mean, I was watching fireworks last night in Homewood Park and it just made me think, like, gosh, this is really, like, I was kind of taken by the whole American thing last night. Right? Because I'm in Homewood I'm I'm in Homewood Park and I'm seeing people from different, like, ethnicities and and I'm seeing I see Muslim families and I see Hispanic folks and I see enough kind of great promise of America that there's a plurality of opinions. I mean, I mean, it's kind of the American experiment that that if we if we were all come together with an interest in this thing, we could probably work some stuff out.
Speaker 2:You know? I mean anyway. So so I would say that, like, that's a hard thing, though, to do with because we don't expect the government to enshrine our convictions in law, I don't think. But, you know, every law is a kind of legislation of what's right and wrong to to a degree. And and then your other question was, how do we how do we navigate around those institutions?
Speaker 2:I mean, I I think we'll kinda have to learn how to do that to to increasing degree. I mean and so that's why I think, like, a religious liberty thing is a little bit of a first tier issue, because I'd like to see us have the freedom to be able to do that navigating work. So I think I think that's that's the tension. I I just, you know, I don't think the Bible, the New Testament, the the Bible as a whole, would expect us to believe in any way. Like like, the New Testament writers don't think Rome is going to do anything about Christian ideas.
Speaker 2:I mean, Rome was the most brutal, godless society that maybe there's ever been. I mean, here here was what the Roman Empire was like. Extreme violence. Like, the place was known for violence. I mean, the gladiatorial games, you know, weren't a joke.
Speaker 2:Like like, it was sport to see people, like but it was like for it was like professional sports for them. I mean, they literally had public commentary in the market about which gladiator could win, and they would trade them back and forth and keep scorecards. It was like it was like a sport, but people would die. But no nobody wanted anybody to die, but just in every now and then, somebody would die. I mean, Rome was known for its violence.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, if an unwanted child was born, well, no big deal, man. Put it outside. Like and it was nobody thought twice about that. Rome, you know, Rome was iconic in the annals of history for for inventing ways to be brutal to people. I mean, in in in in Rome, life did not matter a bit.
Speaker 2:Like, there was a, you know, a tiered society of, like, there are people at the top and nobody else mattered, and nobody thought twice about it. Like, human life meant nothing in the Roman Empire. Rome was also a place of extreme sexual sin. And I could get into that more. You know?
Speaker 2:I'm I'm not going to, but just extreme sexual debauchery. And this is the kind of society that the New Testament writers, like Paul is saying, submit to the governing authorities and pray for them. Right? So so the New Testament doesn't know of the idea that we're going to have, like, a a government that's gonna, you know, do you know, this is just doesn't that's not within its imagination at all. Now we do have some recourse, and that's a gift of from God to to kinda shape these things.
Speaker 2:But but I think I think what you're raising is right. Like, there's gonna be times where we have to just negotiate that carefully. So, yeah, I'm just I'm just affirming, you know, the the tension you're feeling.
Speaker 12:Can I follow-up real quick?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 12:So just since we already talked about abortion, that kind of thing. Yeah. Should we look to the government to fix that issue?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think about that a little bit more. My my instant reaction would be to sort of say yes and no. I think I think we can I think we can do our best to try to to try to support what, again, Richard John Lewis, we call culture of life? But I don't think we should have a lot of expectations about that.
Speaker 2:But I think we so take the Roman society for example. So, one thing that made Christians unique was that in an atmosphere like that, Christians were the first ones to come to the aid of people in trouble. I think we ought to concentrate a lot of our efforts there.
Speaker 15:Okay. My question is, related to the three concepts and also related to education, which we know public education is a part of the government. So I think you're saying that all three of these concepts are equal even though you wrote The Common Good First and at the Top, like, that you would just say they're all 3 equal in how we engage with politics?
Speaker 2:They're all 3 an ingredient in the mix. I don't know that I'd be I'm not quite sure I'd say equal, but they're all ingredients in the mix.
Speaker 15:So my question is, what happens when they're in conflict with each other? Yeah. Like, the example I was thinking of, like, it's probably for the common good for you to send your child to the local elementary school because by being involved there, you increase the the good of the school and things like that. But as a Christian, you may wanna give your child a Christian education and so the dual citizenship could be in conflict with the common good. And I know that's specifically related to education but I could imagine there's times where it might also happen in politics.
Speaker 15:And is that just a matter of Christian conscience and prayer or I guess, so the question is what happens when there's a tension between these three concepts?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I and I think I think there is a tension between these three concepts. I mean, I think they all are sort of in tension. Now there's 2 kinds of tension. There's bad tension, there's good tension.
Speaker 2:Like like, good tension like, you know, like, my brother designs bridges for a living, and you have to have tension to make a bridge hold up for it to go across a body of water. Like, I mean, there's a calculation for the tension. I mean, you gotta have it for it to work. So so I think there's gonna be intention for one another. And I guess my answer would be, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a prayer prayerful thing. Like, yeah, could you provide your energy and your giftedness to something like a local school? Yeah. But but at what at what cost are you gonna do that? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Like, I think of my 2 boys, and my 2 boys are very different. Like, I have a 4 year old and almost 2 year old, and I can't think of 2 people more different than those 2. So my answers to those questions might be different according to the kid. I I think what drives a lot of our decisions about education might be things that aren't necessarily Christian values, you know. How do we get on the right train in order to kind of achieve this kind of, you know, move in the right kind of neighborhood and go to the right kind of school to meet the right kind of people, to have the right kind of kids who can go to the and on and on and on we go.
Speaker 2:I mean, I so I think we gotta think about, like, Christian mission wherever we go, and that might look different in different times and different places. Does that help? So, you know, one thing one thing about all this that that I think you know, when you hold these things in tension, I actually think that first Timothy 2 passage, especially the idea that God desires all men to come to know the truth. I think that's the thing that that that cause, that we desire all people to know the truth. That's our mission.
Speaker 2:I think that's the kind of thing that holds it all together. So so Yeah. These things are hard to negotiate, but we're doing all this for the sake of all men coming to know the truth, like And I and I think that plays this way out in different ways, in different situations. I mean, so I think what you're asking is a question that I would wanna think about more pastorally. So I would wanna sit down with that family and say, well, tell me what your reasons are.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, you know, I will I I think that's just a case by case kinda That's a wisdom question. Right? So it's a good question, though.
Speaker 16:So I feel like you've kind of hit several answers regarding what I'm about to ask, but I'd like to hear, like, a concise one answer.
Speaker 2:Alright.
Speaker 16:Regarding the quiet life
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 16:I know it's a matter of Christian conscience and, prayer and being intentional and being the kind of person who seeks out the lord to know at what point do we take a step, at what point do we raise our voice?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 16:But could you kinda go through a general rule of thumb of how, like, how do we best navigate raising our voice? Maybe, like, just kind of a framework of maybe don't do this, maybe do this type thing. Do you get what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Like, I'm not sure. I guess just a general rule
Speaker 16:of thumb of, like I'll use an example of abortion, for instance.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 16:Let's say, I don't wanna stay quiet on that issue. Alright. How then Okay. Would be the best way to navigate the waters of not staying quiet on that issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So so part of how I would try to decipher what things were supposed to be quiet and not about is I would say the closer it comes to the clear teachings of scripture, there's there's something there. The the clearer something is maybe, the more, you know, the more we have to kinda think through that stuff.
Speaker 2:That's just kinda my first reaction to what you're saying. You know, a rule of thumb for how to engage in certain issues, like like, in a way that's, like, humble and servant hearted, I really think it would have to come down to personal relationships with people. You know? So, you know, take a take an issue. Like like, I would I mean, what whatever issue, I think I would try to, like, sit down with a person and try to ask them to tell me kind of their story and, like, why is that important to you?
Speaker 2:And tell me more about that. Like like, I just don't think there's any substitute for actually trying to put, like, a face on a on a issue because it because it's a person, and I think just a personal relationship is the way that I would kinda try to go about that. So if you take an issue like abortion, like, if that's if that's a heart, like, burdening thing for you, then I really would try to volunteer to save a life. Like that. You know?
Speaker 2:And I think
Speaker 3:you can plug fill in
Speaker 2:blank for other kinds of issues. Like, if if the plight of the immigrant is a passion of yours and there are organizations that that's what they do. Right? And so and so I would I would do I would always try to move things from abstract concepts to actual people. Does that help?
Speaker 16:Yeah. I guess what I'm hearing you say is when I've made this decision to, yes, I want to take action. Yeah. It's to actually take action and not, like, just voice I don't know. Just yell really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. I think what we can sometimes do is trick ourselves. And if I know I keep, like, harping on this, but we think if we shared an article on Facebook, we did something about it. You know, there's actually, like, a really good study about this.
Speaker 2:Like, raising awareness doesn't really work. I mean, a lot of people talk about this. Like, I mean, it you know what I mean. Like, it it does, but but it wouldn't be a bad idea to actually do something and and and know somebody. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Good. And I'm guilty of that as anybody, by the way. The idea that because I taught a thing on this, now I'm somehow you do? Does that make sense? So I'm I'm I'm in it with you.
Speaker 3:Hey. Thank you. I'm Jared.
Speaker 2:Hi, Jared.
Speaker 3:I have a tough question, that I don't I I don't necessarily expect, like, a a clear answer.
Speaker 2:Okay. Good. I love hearing that.
Speaker 3:Well, maybe not a clear answer, but a a right answer. So Oh. I'm just imagining a world where there's 2 political parties and there's 2 candidates that people don't really, you know it's not that logical.
Speaker 2:I don't I I can't imagine that.
Speaker 3:How do you choose between the lesser of 2 evils whenever, arguably both choices are not the right thing to do? And, I mean, is there any way that you can run it through your Grid. Your triparte, analysis there?
Speaker 2:Yep. I can try. I mean, it sounds like that was a sophisticated way of asking me who you should vote for in November. I'm just kidding. Okay.
Speaker 2:Again, I I do think that there will be again, and I know I keep saying this, but I think it's important. And I think it's important for, like, the fellowship that we have of one another as a body of Christ, is that we have to remember that different Christians will come about will answer this question in different ways. And that's not bad. That's a good thing. Okay?
Speaker 2:So there will be some Christians that will say, I'm sitting this one out. I actually think either candidate really has almost no interest in what we would call the common good. And and I don't think some of their positions are things I can square with based upon my allegiance to God's kingdom. And and and maybe I'll just sort of kind of quietly begin to be active in other ways to to promote the things that I think lead to the human flourishing, but, I'm I'm not gonna do that via the political process. I'm not gonna be engaged.
Speaker 2:There are Christians who will come up, you know, to that position. There are other Christians that I think will try to to try to think about and and this is tough because not everybody understands the intricacies of how government works, myself included. But you gotta also think through certain positions that might alienate you to your, like, I can't vote for that person. I think sometimes you gotta ask the question, well, is is that issue something that that person can actually have any influence over anyway? Like, is that even the way that our country works?
Speaker 2:Like, well, not not necessarily. You know? Now there are still gonna be Christians who say, well, I don't care about that. This is still, like, my heart's burden. I will not cast a vote for somebody with that view.
Speaker 2:And we gotta just be able to say, like, okay, to that. But but I think we got to try to assess it. Like, will either these candidates promote, like, the flourishing of our homes and and communities and cities and neighborhoods and literally baseball things and and and everything else? And I think you gotta try to assess that, and you might come across kind of a lesser of 2 evils kind of idea. I think you've got to try to think about your allegiances to God's kingdom.
Speaker 2:And if there are those hot button things that well, that person supports that. Well, the thing is, will will both people support that? Well, then now what I'm gonna do? In other words, I don't know. I mean, it's this is a complete and utter quagmire that's actually I y'all can look that word up.
Speaker 2:I've used it, like, twice tonight, and I don't even know what it means. It's it's it's a debacle. How's that? It's a, anyway, that's enough. It's just it's just such a unique situation I think we're facing where Christians in all places are trying to say, like, golly, how am I supposed to do this?
Speaker 2:I don't know. So so that'd be the way I'd kinda run through the grid. Like, do I think either of these candidates can can can promote whatever our nation? Like, what are the issues that are hot button ones for me that I I can't go there? And then what would it look like for me to begin to pray for and to begin to kind of in under the radar ways, advance what I believe to be the best thing for people in obedience to Jesus?
Speaker 2:And I think some Christians will say, well, shoot. If I ever really weigh it all out and I realize what these guys have potential to do or look at what kind of cabinet they're gonna create and people they're gonna put in place, I guess I'll I'll vote for that person. And and and other Christians would be like, I don't know, man. I'm not gonna do it. Other person other people can write candidates in.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think I think we're just gonna have to decide what we're gonna do, and I think I mean, I think that's the exact issue that we're trying to figure out. So it's a good question.
Speaker 17:So kinda two things, but they're connected. The common good, what do you do when, the common good that the Christian should be pursuing is maybe different than the common good that the government is pursuing? Mhmm. And then let's see. How does that work if we can't trust the kingdom or the kingdom of man to advance the, kingdom of God?
Speaker 2:Okay. Kind
Speaker 17:of the that tension there?
Speaker 2:Sure. So let me let me do the second one first. When I say it can't be trusted, I I I hope I didn't say that We have to always be suspicious that the government's evil. Okay? What I'm saying is it cannot be trusted as in our egg should not be in that basket alone.
Speaker 2:Okay? So in other words, we don't say kingdom of God. Okay. Government, you do that for us. Okay?
Speaker 2:So that's what I mean by that. Okay? So your first question is, when when when maybe what a government's pursuing is their vision for the common good differs from what a Christian would understand the common good to be, which is exactly the situation I think we have to live in. I mean, that's to me, that's part of the tension of the 2 kingdoms. So so here's what here's what I would say about that.
Speaker 2:I would say, are there are there I'd I'd say the few different things. One thing is, I think every now and then, we gotta think through ways of compromise. Okay? Now I don't mean, like, selling out on something scripture clearly teaches. That's not what I mean.
Speaker 2:But I'm saying whenever, like, a whole vision of what, like, a particular presidential administration is trying to promote differs from yours, are there any areas of overlap and compromise? Maybe there will be, maybe there won't be. Or maybe there'll be such hot button issues that just kind of in your heart on your conscience. K? Christian conscience.
Speaker 2:You're gonna hear me say that a 1000000 times in this q and a. K? It's a really important principle that so much will depend on sort of our conscience and what we believe we need to do. So I would say Christians will handle that differently. I think some will try to find areas of overlap and compromise.
Speaker 2:Some will kinda try to look on down the line and see what, you know, so I think I think we sort of sometimes assume everything is about the presidential race. When every now and then, things on down the line might be actually more important or, like, we gotta think of more than just that. Right? And I would also just always encourage things to just try to think of things as locally as you possibly can. So let's say in the presidential race, you just don't think you can get behind this person or that person, their, like, vision for the common good.
Speaker 2:Well, but could what about your city councilman? Can can can you find in other words, it's not always about the president. Right? So is there so I would say, are there areas of overlap and compromise? Are there areas that just as a Christian, you just gotta say, you know what?
Speaker 2:I I can't I can't work that out. Or are there times where you can say, okay. Well, relationally and locally, are there other ways for me to still seek the common good, though I might disagree on something big up there somewhere? Does that help?
Speaker 15:You spoke earlier about a couple of negative examples of the 2 kingdoms in action. What would be your vision of a positive view of the 2 kingdoms in action?
Speaker 2:Man, that's a great question. Okay. I I don't know the technical term for this, and somebody in the room might. So if you if you know for free. But I but I felt like some of in the Bush administration, there was a particular effort to try to help, things related to AIDS in Africa.
Speaker 2:So there was kind of a multinational sort of initiative, led by the United States to try to work alongside different groups to help educate and make people aware of the AIDS epidemic in Africa. That's an example to me when where values of God's kingdom to help people who are poor, might have been in line with, say, a government project. K? So that's an example that comes to my mind. I'm sure there are others.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think this is kind of a a biblical sort of a biblical idea is that, you know so I said there's kinda 2 places in Paul's letters where he gets into this. One's in first Timothy. The other one would be in Romans 13. And in Romans 13, he kinda talks about the government bears the sword. Okay?
Speaker 2:And what he means by that is government is supposed to enforce the law and punish wrong wrongdoing. So I would say when we have a good example of justice that prevails. K? Now there's lots of examples where we don't think real justice came via the justice system. Right?
Speaker 2:I mean, we all we all have those examples. But there are examples when we feel like it really did. And to me, that would be a good example even, like, more directly biblically whenever the 2 kingdoms are at least functioning appropriately. K? I'm sure there's more.
Speaker 2:That's 2 I could I could just throw out there. That's a great question.
Speaker 18:Do you think that, keeping in mind our responsibility as citizens of 2 kingdoms to work for the common good, this is kind of a a loaded question, but what do you think of the quote by Spurgeon, between the lesser of 2 evils, choose neither?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 18:Do you think that that there's a point at which that's true, or do you think that we have a responsibility to work to promote the least evil or at least probably less pessimistically the most good in a choice that we have?
Speaker 2:Man, that's a great question. Does everybody agree that that's an awesome question? Because I do. And it's awesome when somebody in q and a says what you were gonna ask too. Right?
Speaker 2:So so I think what what Spurgeon's trying to get after there is similar to what I'm saying about, like, the idea of Christian conscience. There there probably comes a point for some, and and I've talked with personal friends of mine that feel this way, that given the choice between and I and I really don't mean necessarily right now Trump or Hillary. I'm not I'm not really talking on that level. But given the choice between 2 alternatives and what those two alternatives stand for, they they really or with Spurgeon there, choose neither. As a as a sort of protest, as a sort of prophetic act of of obedience to God, as following the promptings of God's spirit, I'm gonna sit this out because and and that's my way of of doing right and and and advocating for good.
Speaker 2:Okay? But I think different Christians are gonna handle that different way. So I think there's freedom for the Christian to follow Spurgeon's lead there. I also think there's freedom for the Christian. And this is this is a I mean, I keep saying this, but this is a great, great important idea in Christianity.
Speaker 2:Okay? That only Christ is lord over the conscience. K? Baptists are sort of famous for this idea. So I think there's other Christians that have the freedom to say, you know what?
Speaker 2:I am gonna choose sort of the lesser of the evils because at least we'll promote certain sorts of good. And I think the way I've seen some Christians arrive at that is they kinda look on down the chain, like I was mentioning earlier. Like, yeah, you might think a particular political presidential candidate, and, well, I can't I can't cast a vote there either, in either direction. But is that guy gonna bring someone into his cabinet that I actually think could do a good thing? Or on down the line, you know, to to and you can break that all the way down to to local issues.
Speaker 2:Or or people say, well, I'm not voting either for president, but I am gonna cast a vote for you know, in other words, I think there's freedom for the Christian. So so I I'm not I mean, I'm never gonna disagree with Charles Spurgeon unless I just absolutely have to. But but I think what Spurgeon so I think what Spurgeon's saying is right. There's freedom for the Christian to take that approach. And pastorally, just as a pastor, I would say if that's if that's how you feel, like, that's fine.
Speaker 2:And I would also say as a pastor, if you feel otherwise that you can at least look for some of those lesser of evils, I think you're free to do that. K? It's me talking. I think that that's the way that goes. It's a good question.
Speaker 19:So in reference to the common goods argument or not argument, but position, in Birmingham specifically. Hoover specifically is the most or one of the top 5 most segregated cities in the country. And so we've done a really good job of when you talk about getting to know my neighbors, all my neighbors look like me.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 19:All my neighbors are in the same socioeconomic status as me.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 19:And so trying to think of a responsible, loving way to to do that. Like, how how do I know what the common good is, is if all the people around me look like
Speaker 2:me? Yeah.
Speaker 19:How do I, like, responsibly step into a socioeconomic status that I have no identification with? Yeah. In a way that loves those people but also doesn't lord over them and, you know, lots of stuff. I'm sure you have opinions.
Speaker 2:Yes, man. That's that's that's a great question. You know, there was a there was a map that was put out recently that tried to show different cities and how they were segregated, and it was, like, color coded. You know? So I think Hispanics were, like, orange and and African Americans were, like, green and and whites were were blue or whatever.
Speaker 2:And and it's just fascinating to see. Right? I mean, where I used to live in San Antonio, Texas, I mean, you can draw an exact line where Hispanics lived to the south, you know, to the north, or or whatever. Man, the most stark map on the map I mean, on the on the article, obviously, it was Birmingham. And what's the dividing line?
Speaker 2:The mountain. Right? I mean, it was, like, completely blue up here, completely green down there. I mean, it was like stripes. K?
Speaker 2:So I think, Todd, what you're raising is exactly right. So you guys know this kinda deal that's gone around today about the African American man who was killed in Louisiana. What what I want what I wanna do is I wanna be the kind of person that immediately, my first instinct is to call Calvin Bell, who's an African American pastor that I have relationship with. And I really would I really wanna go to lunch with him. He's in Bessemer.
Speaker 2:Bob, you know, Bob Sexton Barbecue is just fine. And and I and I and I wanna I wanna just talk with him. Like, that's the way I wanna engage that. Okay? Now you're right.
Speaker 2:Like, one of the tragic things in America and a lot of people have done a lot of writing on this, including this guy named Bill Bishop in a book called The Big Sort. The the book's called The Big Sort, why the clustering of like minded America is tearing us apart. And he makes the point you're making that it's and it's it is unbelievable. So use the example of Texas because he writes in Austin. You know, when Bush and Carrie were running against each other Texas is a huge state.
Speaker 2:Literally, every county in Texas voted for Bush except for Travis County, which is Austin. It voted for Kerry. And and he gets into it's unbelievable how minutely these things happen. Like like, it it's it's crazy statistics. It's like it's like people who are are politically liberal will accidentally move into neighborhoods where people like, I say accidentally because they might not even know that they are, but they find themselves.
Speaker 2:Like, he writes about it in the book that I that somehow I knew like, America is is is is segregated place and it's segregated on all these levels. So the only way I know to overcome that is to seek the Lord and see what that might mean for you and your family. And God and I know friends who the Lord has led them to try to get involved. Now now now that causes complications. Right?
Speaker 2:Because everybody knows that we that people who are in power have a have a kind of a bad habit of knowing what's best for people who aren't. Right? And that isn't great. So, like, I've seen this personally in the work that I do in Haiti or the work that Manny and I have been involved with in Haiti. You know, Americans have great ideas for what Haitians need somehow.
Speaker 2:Right? The only way to break and that's not and and I'm saying that in a negative way. But the only way to break that down is to actually have a friendship with the person. Because then all of a sudden, when when you build a friendship with something, like, their problems are your problems. And when their problems are your problems, you'd be amazed what you're willing to do for your friend versus for an issue.
Speaker 2:And I actually think that's the heart of everything that's kinda right with the world when people love their neighbor. But you're right. Like, my immediate neighbors look like me. Well, then I'd say it's on you to somehow go out of your way to build friendships across different lines. But I think that initiative has to be on you to do that.
Speaker 2:It's a good question.
Speaker 20:I really appreciate how you have talked about the tensions tonight, and how we need to wrestle between different things, and to think Christianly rather than to assume a certain Christian position. I think but it's no secret that in America, particularly in the South, certain positions do get labeled as Christians. Certain people vote certain ways because it's the Christian thing to do. Yeah. How do we establish cultures in our churches that teach us to wrestle in the tension rather than to label a certain position as Christian and to follow blindly?
Speaker 2:I actually think, like, something like a theological talk back on faith and politics. I I think this is a move toward that. I mean, I've been a part of really only 2 of these, like, the the last one and this one. And it's gotta be one of the best things redeemer does. Right?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think Jeff has done a great job, like, kinda leading the charge with these things. So I I think being willing to talk about it is is a start. You know, it's amazing when you start reading the Bible and you start really trying to take what it's saying seriously, how that will create you into sort of a more thoughtful person about these ideas. Because the Bible is hard to categorize on certain issues. So I think a commitment to environments like this I mean, because your question is how do we, in churches, do this?
Speaker 2:I think I think a commitment to environment like this, a commitment to just preaching through text of scripture, to for us to sort of try to count you know, catch the whole counsel of God in our in our ministry to people, I think is big. I think, I think building those kinds of relationships with people. I mean, I I mean, I I I know I'm thinking of a particular person in my mind that that thinks very different politically on an an issue that's very important to me. But when I sit down with him and hear his concerns and his burdens and and knowing he's a Christian. At the same time, it all of a sudden makes me think, I gotta think about that some more.
Speaker 2:You know, so I think it's a combination of environments like this, being exposed to scriptures, and building relationships, you know, from for people who have different ideas than you. I think that's how you cultivate that. I think being being a community that likes to be thinkers, I think helps. Read books, you know, things like that.
Speaker 7:Joel, I'm interested in how to sort of navigate this idea that in I mean, even in our constitution, like, we as American citizens are, are given certain inalienable rights versus what scripture teaches about. We first and foremost belong to Christ and there's definitely times, especially in the new testament where we're called to lay down the things that we are owed or the things that we are entitled to. And I'm just I guess I'm wondering if you can speak to how we sort of navigate that. When do we sort of get on the side of these are my rights versus I belong to Christ and and I belong to him first and foremost, and sometimes I'm called to lay down my rights. I mean, even as we look to Jesus who was king and came into the world and laid that down in order to follow the father.
Speaker 7:So I I I'm wondering if you can kinda help me think through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's great that's great question. Okay. So yeah. I mean, so you brought it up, the narrative of Philippians 2.
Speaker 2:Right? That Christ, though he was in the very form of God, did not count and call God a thing to be grasped, but he made himself nothing. I mean, it wouldn't hurt us. I mean, I I think that mentality is similar to this quiet life principle. Okay?
Speaker 2:That every now and then, godly and dignified godly you know, a quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. Every now and then, that might mean us laying down a certain right of ours, not demanding what belongs to us. I think I think you're right on there. I also would wanna think through this idea that, you know, Christianity doesn't need, like, a cultural apparatus by which to travel for it to be effective. Right?
Speaker 2:So, like, what I'm trying to get at with this is that so so, you know, it's not like we need a situation like America for the king of God to flourish, but there's also a good, healthy, way that we enjoy the rights that we've been given. You know, God in his providence, you know, could have had you born and live anywhere in the world, but he sent you here. Right? And one thing about being a Christian and one thing about the gospel, this is a there's a theologian named Laman Sanneh, who who's an African theologian. He talks about how the gospel's infinitely translatable.
Speaker 2:You know? So so you can live the gospel in whatever culture in which you find yourself, and you have found yourself in this one. And there's certain sort of common grace sort of things that you have here, certain freedoms that you have, and I don't think there's any shame in in us living into those when when we can. But I do think it's what you're saying. But but if our loyalties are to the kingdom of God, there are times that we that we have to be willing to lay those things aside.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of just affirming the tension you're asking me about, and and telling you that it's it's a it's real. Like, that struggle is real, what you're saying. And and we have to try to find ways to negotiate that. When can I sort of enjoy being an American and enjoy the blessing that that's been given, you know, that I've been given and and the common grace? I mean, you know, so I've mentioned Haiti again.
Speaker 2:Like, like, I've learned so much about politics and Christianity and politics from our relationship with people in Haiti, which is a different culture. And there are certain basic things that are in place here, like roads, that that, you know, are relatively safe. I mean, these are things we can enjoy as American people or certain freedoms of of assembly, of speech. And I and I think that that's fine to do, but I think I think maybe what you're what you're saying is I'm really not meaning to get this long winded about this. I think what we're saying is at least in our hearts and as a community, let's have a willingness to follow, you know, the Jesus of Philippians 2.
Speaker 2:And and let's try to apply that sometimes to our political engagement. That's good. K. Hi, Kate.
Speaker 13:This is kind of more of a practical question. In you know, you mentioned that one of the the takeaways is to just to be informed, just to know what's going on, know what scripture says, but also to know what's going on in the world and what's going on in America and in our city. But I find myself to be somewhat distrusting of the various media outlets. Right. Can you speak to that or even go so far as to be specific as far as, you know, some what what do you what outlet do you trust where you get your information?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 13:Please say it's the skim.
Speaker 2:The what? The skim? The skim? I don't know what that is. So alright.
Speaker 2:So I wouldn't say the skim because I don't know what that is. Like like, I was gonna try to make other jokes, but I don't even know what to say. Alright. So let me let me just let me just disillusion us all if we're not already. Do you gotta understand that major media, cable cable media outlets in particular, CNN, Fox News, whatever and again, these are both both of them k.
Speaker 2:They're trying to make lots of money. K? And so and so they're literally and they'll they'll be and then, you know, they'll they'll actually admit this. I mean, they have a product to sell to a market. You know, quasi, you know, whatever political commentary is a product that Fox News is trying to sell to a very particular kind of Republican.
Speaker 2:And it and it's and CNN for a very particular you know what I'm saying? Like, that's that's just fact.
Jeffrey Heine:And I
Speaker 2:don't know if you know how websites work, but websites work based upon original visitors to that site per month equals a certain amount of advertising revenue that can be made. And that's, I mean, that's why you got clickbait on Twitter. You know? It's like just getting a click there is fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think you're right and you're wise in that. Now here's okay. I'll just be practical about this. You know, and it's not and Collins, not even here, but The Gospel Coalition does a pretty good job, I think, of trying to inform folks about things like this. And and that doesn't mean you always agree with everything that's said there, but I think I think that's pretty good.
Speaker 2:First Things Magazine that I said earlier. I don't know if I said that, but there's First Things Magazine, and they have a website. It's that's actually a Roman Catholic journal. One One thing you kinda learn when you start thinking about these things is the Catholics are really, really, really, really, really good on things related to to to this issue. Like, Richard father Richard John Neuhaus was a Catholic priest, like, you know, really was a leader in faith in public square kinds of issues.
Speaker 2:Catholics are really good on ethics. I mean, so so that's I'm telling you something that's a little bit of a different take than maybe you'd be used to. You know, there there are just certain people that I think are really smart, and they write about this. And and I would encourage you to follow some of these people on, like, a Twitter, for example. There's a guy named Ross Dow Fudd.
Speaker 2:He wrote it's a weird name, Dow Fudd, but, he wrote this book and he's written others. He's a New York Times columnist. I I think he's really, really good. You know, he's he's he's got a lot of criticism for the Liberals and and and conservatives or, you know, Republicans or Democrats. There's there's others.
Speaker 2:I mean, who's who should I tell you next? Yeah. So, I mean, that's just a place to start. I think those are some folks that are good, and maybe I'll think about that a little bit more. You know, I've been trying to read a lot today from African American voices because of that particular issue, and I think we're wise to do that, to to try to read from outside of you.
Speaker 2:Let me think about this some more, and and maybe I can email you some more.
Speaker 14:Sorry to make you walk so far, Dwight. So, this this question can might come across as divisive, and I don't mean it that way. You know, I wanted to be sincere.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 14:But given the the great possibility that we could have a a female president, how does the church as an institution respond to, what seems as a lack of, female leadership and, maybe the the cultural assault that's gonna come from the discrepancy that exists there.
Speaker 2:Alright. So try to rephrase that for me. I'm not I'm not quite sure what you're asking me. Do I think it's okay to have a female president? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:No. No. No. No. No.
Speaker 14:I'm saying, as far as the church's response to the culture, as far it if right. So, if the cult if the church is seen as being behind the culture in the times that or, if it's it's viewed as the society is a progressive and ahead of the church and the church is behind, how do you respond biblically to say, in in respond to the fact that there's not female pastors per se? Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Does does that make sense?
Speaker 14:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. So let me just phrase that carefully. No. I got you.
Speaker 2:So okay. So what you're what you're asking me is that, you know, if there's a female president, will there be a pressure on the church to have female pastors in order to not look like they're on the wrong side of history? Or, you know, with certain freedoms granted to same sex couples, for example, will will there be a pressure for the church to think yeah. And and and what I would say about that like, so you're asking me how we negotiate that biblically. I mean, I think I think different churches will will have to really think seriously about their convictions on issues like that, and I think they'll have to make the stands that they think are appropriate for them.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is one great thing about a church that's led by, like, a plurality of elders, for example, that there's multiple multiple opinions on how to face something like that. But but it you know, the only other thing I would say is, like, that whole, like, wrong side of history argument, that's kind of a crazy argument anyway because, I mean, Christians are are are never I mean, Christians are on the right side of history always. Does that make sense? So I in other words, I don't think we I don't think we worry at all if somebody worries we're behind the times. I mean, I heard somebody say one time, the arc of history is long, but it is bending toward Jesus.
Speaker 2:Amen? You You can even say, hello, somebody. So so so I just would not worry about that is what I'm saying. I I think Christians are part of the kingdom that's unshaken and will always stand, and we don't have to worry about if people think that we're behind the times. So
Speaker 21:In terms of being informed of a scripture, you gave some examples on New Testament teaching and politics. She also gave another example. She also gave examples on Old Testament commands.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 21:So I'm assuming all the New Testament teaching can be applied today in politics. For the old testament commands, how do you know which one can be applied and how do we apply them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. That's an awesome question. So the question is, how do we know what old testament teaching actually applies to today, or how do we know what new testament teaching applies today? That's an awesome question. Okay?
Speaker 2:I think that's a great question, because that's a hard issue. And that's a particularly hard issue of, like, hermeneutics, of how to read your bible. So, yeah, there are so I mentioned the old testament laws to caring for the widow, the orphan, and this and the and the foreigner. So, yeah, though there are other old testament laws that don't apply today, or don't apply for the Christian, because maybe they've been altered or changed somehow in the new testament. An example I'm just thinking of in my mind is, you know, the admonition to old testament in Israel not to eat pork.
Speaker 2:In in Acts, you know, Paul or Peter has the vision, and all foods are declared clean. So that's an example of something from the new testament that influences how we read the Old Testament. I would say that the that the Old Testament vision for God's people when it came to issues of, care and compassion and things like that, I I think those things apply. So there's a really good book written by a guy named Christopher j. Right?
Speaker 2:And it is called old testament ethics and the people of God. And and that's a really good resource that helps you negotiate when it comes to old testament. Now when it comes to new testament, when it comes to new testament, that's still a great question because guess what? We don't live in the Roman Empire. Okay?
Speaker 2:Now given what I told you about what Rome was like, you might have sat there and said, kinda sounds similar, and and you'd be right to do so. So in other words, when Paul tells folks to live a quiet life, you know, Paul Paul does not imagine that there's any kind of way that like a Christian an an early Christian in the early parts of the Christian tradition, he he can't fathom that that person would have any recourse to affect the government. I mean, that would be incomprehensible to him because, I mean, most Christians were comprised of the most marginalized people in that society. See, but what I would say is, but the Holy Spirit knows our situation. Okay?
Speaker 2:And and I think I think whenever you read the bible, a good general assumption is their story is our story. So when Paul gives letters to those folks, though rooted in the context might be different than ours, I think the Holy Spirit knows that those things then apply to us. So so in other words, your question you're asking is a question really of hermeneutics and how we read the bible and interpret it, and I think there's some great resource that tells how to do that. But I affirm what you're saying, that there are things that probably don't apply in the same way, and there are other things that do. And the work of bible study and Christian biblical teaching is to kinda negotiate those tensions.
Speaker 2:It's a awesome question.
Speaker 22:You cited Nietzsche, earlier about how politics now is more of a power grab. Yeah. And if that's the case, and I apologize this is maybe more of a devil's advocate, but, what what's this if that's how our particular country is running right now with the politics, is there any reason why Christians shouldn't take the power or seek to?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, man. That's a really good question. Okay? And here here's I fought that thought lots, and and here's here's why.
Speaker 2:Can you think of a single position you hold as a Christian when it comes to kinda ethics or whatever that you don't, at the same time, believe would be the best thing for all of society? Right? There's a guy named, it's either Peter Brown. I think it's Peter Brown. It might be actually, I think it's Peter Leithart.
Speaker 2:Peter Leithart wrote a book called defending what would be so wrong with that? Because we really would believe it would be the best thing for the common good. So what I'd say to that is that project was tried and found wanting. You know, I think human nature, you know, a biblical vision of anthropology, the nature of the human person, kind of prevents us from assuming good things about people in power. Right?
Speaker 2:So I would caution us. So let me give you a little practical example. I am so full of antidotes today. I'm sorry for that. But so a very good friend of mine is a guy named Kyle McClellan, who's a pastor in Nebraska.
Speaker 2:A ruling elder in his church is a guy named Ben Sasse, s a s s e. Ben Sasse is a Republican senator from Nebraska who's kinda been a big leader of the last couple months. And he's really kinda rising to the scene of national politics. I mean, there's been rumors that Ben Sasse would be the 3rd candidate to run. So I was discussing with Kyle McCollum, my good friend, and Kyle said, you know, I sorta love it for our country.
Speaker 2:I'm scared of it for his soul. See, in other words, an honest assessment of human beings and their sin nature would prevent us from wanting too many awesome people to be in power. And, and and I think it would present prevent and when I say awesome people, I mean godly people in power, like like the corrupting influence of power because of human nature. That's one reason why local churches are governed again by plurality of elders. So oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:So and then the other thing I would say is also what we discussed earlier that Jess brought up. You know, we also have, as our example, King Jesus who willingly laid himself aside. And so we gotta throw that in the equation too. But I hear what you're saying, and I think it's a good point. And I think it's a really strong point to think, but what we believe would actually be such a gift to our culture, because you're right.
Speaker 2:But, you know, the lord and his providence has put us in a different situation, and I think we live accordingly according to the example of Jesus. So it's good, man.
Speaker 19:Hey.
Speaker 23:You're we're talking earlier about, about rights we enjoy as Americans. And sometimes, you know, maybe sitting on those rights might be the right thing to do. And, of course, we enjoy American Christians enjoy so many more rights than the early Christians could have ever dreamed of.
Speaker 2:Right. Or other Christians in other parts of the world.
Speaker 23:Other parts of the world currently. Right.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 23:There's also a lot of talk in the scriptures, or script the scripture does not look kindly upon litigiousness. Yeah. That that being said, there
Speaker 2:have been What you said, litigiousness meaning, like, suing people.
Speaker 23:Correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 23:That, you know, that being said, there are Christian organizations yeah, in America that are rising up and and, see it as a calling, to defend Yeah. Rights reenjoys Americans, particularly religious rights. And I just I'm curious about your thoughts on that. Is it is that appropriate?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I agree with you that the that the, scriptures don't look kindly on litigiousness ness. Put that in your mouth and try to say it. Okay? And I but what what I would wanna say is but those texts right there, really, you're talking about inner church relationships, just for what it's worth.
Speaker 2:Man, that see, that's another hard one. And that's where I would say that whoever leads this organization, so those Christian lawyers, I think they need to be people who are submissive to the Holy Spirit, who are prayerful, who are plugged in the local church community, who are doing their best to kind of apply the principle of praying for the rulers and governing authorities and living a dignified and quiet life. And for them to make those calls accordingly, Understanding that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, understanding that Christ's kingdom won't be shaken, willing to lay their selves aside every now and then for the good of whoever. But but again, that's one of those moments where I think in God's providence, we have been placed in a place like the United States, and there are certain rights. And and and and maybe as citizens, we can ask for those.
Speaker 2:I mean, or create space for those. And and so, you know and and here's one other really important point that I've been meaning to say all along is that one of the great things about sort of a theology of vocation, okay, a theology of work, is that God has placed different Christians in certain spheres and arenas. What that means is there are certain Christians that have greater degree of ability to influence a thing than others. And those people need to live out their Christian calling accordingly. So we do need godly constitutional lawyers who are fill who are filling that space.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? Just like we need Christian filmmakers who are filling that space, you know, history professors at public universities. And and so I would just I would not want to presume to understand those issues enough to know how to navigate that. But, pastorally, that's what I would wanna say. I'd wanna say to that guy, do you kinda understand that your loyalty is the one who came down?
Speaker 2:I just would wanna kinda walk through these ideas, ask him to be prayerful, and kinda let those chips fall. It's a good question. Alright. Can we pray? And I'm gonna pray for government rulers and authorities because the Bible tells us to do that.
Speaker 2:Okay? Lord, we ask that you would help us negotiate these things, Lord, for your glory, for the sake of your kingdom. These are hard complex things, and it seems like the more we think about them, the more difficult they become. Lord, make us wise. Lord, we do actually pray for the rulers and authorities in the lord, we pray for president Obama.
Speaker 2:Lord, we pray for governor Bentley. We pray for mayor William Bell. Lord, we pray for Donald Trump and for Hillary Clinton, for Gary Johnson, Lord, for for any others. Lord, we do ask that you would, bring them encouragement, give them wisdom. Lord, help them govern us well.
Speaker 2:God, give us courage to do right things even when they're hard and personally costly. Lord, we need you for this task. But we do thank you that your kingdom, is an unshakable one. Thank you that you rule over all things. We thank you that, your word teaches us that there's nobody's authority that you didn't put there.
Speaker 2:And so we ask that you would make us your people in these things. We pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen.